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Speaker 1: Hey there, I want to give you a heads up

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Speaker 1: that this episode will discuss sexual abuse. Please listen with care.

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Speaker 2: Previously on Hello John Dale, I think.

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Speaker 3: Everybody's got an origin, and I would just like to

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Speaker 3: know you know where I will get.

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Speaker 2: The girls were traumatized by the tornado because we were

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Speaker 2: in the trailer when the tornado hit and we had

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Speaker 2: no way out. When you try to talk to her

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Speaker 2: about certain things when we were little, she would change

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Speaker 2: the subject real quick.

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Speaker 4: Yes, she regrets that she didn't do everything that she could.

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Speaker 4: She's putting a lot of the blame on herself, and

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Speaker 4: I'm like, Mom, you know it's not just your fault.

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Speaker 1: In the past few chapters, I've told you about Franklin

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Speaker 1: for it's destructive impact on Steve's birth family. We heard

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Speaker 1: how he kidnapped Steve's sister, Susie Sevegas, and how he

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Speaker 1: kidnapped Michael, HER's son, and how Susie was killed and

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Speaker 1: how Michael was never found. These stories are all part

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Speaker 1: of the fabric of Steve's birth family, their traumatic past

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Speaker 1: they've had to live with and grapple with. When Steve

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Speaker 1: learned of his family of origin, some of their trauma

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Speaker 1: became his trauma too, he started to mourn the sister

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Speaker 1: that he never had. It's like Steve's been in during

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Speaker 1: survivor's guilt and a feeling of being abandoned. At the

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Speaker 1: same time, he's trying to figure out who he really is.

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Speaker 1: He's facing an emotional mind field, and lately he can't

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Speaker 1: stop thinking about the family never knew existed. Like his

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Speaker 1: older sister, Amy Winkles, Sandy's third daughter. They found each

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Speaker 1: other in twenty nineteen, the same way Steve found their mom,

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Speaker 1: Sady on Facebook.

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Speaker 2: I told her who I was.

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Speaker 3: I think you're my sister, and then she's like, you

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Speaker 3: gotta be kidding what I'm not kidding And then we

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Speaker 3: just went back and forth from there.

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Speaker 1: Amy read me some of those early Facebook messages.

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Speaker 2: I said, Wow, I hate to say that I never

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Speaker 2: believed her when she said we have had a brother

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Speaker 2: named Steve, Well, let me tell you a little bit

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Speaker 2: about me.

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Speaker 1: The two shared DNA but knew almost nothing about each other,

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Speaker 1: so they started feeling in each other in the details

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Speaker 1: of their lives, if they were married, if they had kids,

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Speaker 1: but they did for work for days. They talked on

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Speaker 1: and off. Once he was ready, Steve asked something that

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Speaker 1: had been weighing on him.

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Speaker 2: And then he said, or are you calm enough to

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Speaker 2: ask a question? And I said, yeah, what's on your mind?

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Speaker 2: He said? Who is my dad?

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Speaker 1: Steve hoped maybe Amy knew something no one else did,

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Speaker 1: maybe she had some insight, but Amy didn't.

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Speaker 2: I said, let me ask you something. How did you

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Speaker 2: end up where you are? Did she give you away

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Speaker 2: or what? He said, Yes, she gave me away. I said,

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Speaker 2: did you have a good childhood? He said, call me.

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Speaker 1: That's when Steve got real with Amy, and then he went.

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Speaker 2: To his feelings, said that he's a bastard and I said, no,

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Speaker 2: you're my brother, and that's what matters to me. He said,

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Speaker 2: nobody cared about me. For forty five years.

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Speaker 1: Steve felt abandoned, and he was fixated on the fact

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Speaker 1: that his parents weren't even a couple, definitely not married.

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Speaker 1: He was, in his words, a bastard. Amy set him straight.

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Speaker 1: She read me the message just you sent to Steve.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know you were alive. I was told you

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Speaker 2: died as a baby. If I knew about you, I

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Speaker 2: would have searched the world for you. I was robbed

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Speaker 2: of knowing you and you were robbed of knowing me.

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Speaker 1: She blamed some of this on her mom. Amy felt

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Speaker 1: like Sandy didn't tell her the full story. When she

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Speaker 1: was growing up. Sandy hadn't told her that Floyd forced

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Speaker 1: her to give away Steve, or that she hitchhied looking

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Speaker 1: for her missing kids. Now it was on Amy to

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Speaker 1: make sense of the pastor for Steve. They talked on

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Speaker 1: and off for the next two years, as the world

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Speaker 1: dealt with COVID nineteen and travel was discouraged. In twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty one, Aim and her husband packed up the car

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Speaker 1: and made the trip from eastern Virginia to Charboro, North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: to meet Steve for the first time. Both siblings had

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Speaker 1: a serious case of the jitters, where they both act

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Speaker 1: the same, look the same, but they get along.

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Speaker 5: They stay focused on.

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Speaker 1: The small details, the ones that were easier to control,

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Speaker 1: and they kept texting.

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Speaker 2: I said, we can come to you and order pizza,

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Speaker 2: and he said, okay, we could go anywhere. I'll pay

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Speaker 2: and I was like, on our way. He said, the

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Speaker 2: place we were staying at right now is shitty and

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Speaker 2: I'm embarrassed. I said, don't be. We aren't high allar either,

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Speaker 2: and then he said, Okay, I'm nervous. I don't ever

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Speaker 2: get nervous. I was like me too, and then I

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Speaker 2: said I'm here.

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Speaker 1: After almost fifty years apart, the siblings were face to face.

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Speaker 2: We held each other tight. I mean I had said,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, and I held a and I said, god,

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Speaker 2: you look just like Papa.

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Speaker 1: That's her grandpa, Sandy's dad.

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Speaker 2: And it was like we held on for quite a while.

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Speaker 3: It was kind of emotional. We got the same personality

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Speaker 3: more or less. She's a little bit lighter now, she's

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Speaker 3: got a sense of email. She'll tell you like it

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Speaker 3: is too now. She don't should have coad anything. She's

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Speaker 3: a trait shooter.

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Speaker 1: That day in North Carolina wasn't just a reunion for

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Speaker 1: Steve and Amy. There was someone else who said goodbye

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Speaker 1: to Amy half a century ago. Mary Patterson, the woman

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Speaker 1: who had adopted Steve.

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Speaker 5: Than my family. Now, you know, you know you could

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Speaker 5: have been my child.

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Speaker 1: You might remember this from before Steve's adopted mama. Mary

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Speaker 1: considered taking all of Sandy's four kids, but didn't have

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Speaker 1: the room in her trailer. Mary had always wondered about

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Speaker 1: the three girls she left behind, Susy, Allison, and now

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Speaker 1: here was Amy in front of her.

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Speaker 2: I could have had you, she said, you had a

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Speaker 2: I mean, I wouldn't went through what.

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Speaker 5: I went through.

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Speaker 2: The first time she hugged me, you could feel her

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Speaker 2: ex hell to know that she wanted me, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't able to take me and for her to be

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Speaker 2: able to see that I was okay.

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Speaker 1: If Amy or Stay were worried that they might run

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Speaker 1: out of things to say, they were dead wrong.

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Speaker 2: We cried quite a while, and then we just sat

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Speaker 2: there and we talked, went out to eat and talk,

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Speaker 2: fought over who was paying for what, you know, all

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Speaker 2: that sort of stuff like Girls of the Slumber Party.

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Speaker 2: You just want to sit around and talk and talk

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Speaker 2: and talk.

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Speaker 1: Finding the family stable loss was just the first step.

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Speaker 1: The next was deciding how and where he fits in.

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Speaker 1: At this point, Steve was open to Amy, but he

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Speaker 1: wasn't so sure he wanted to know Sandy.

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Speaker 2: I don't blame him for not wanting to talk to

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Speaker 2: her at all, and I try not to talk about

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Speaker 2: her to him because I feel kind of guilty because

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Speaker 2: I lived with her our whole life and he didn't,

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Speaker 2: and it wasn't his choice. That's part of the guilt

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Speaker 2: that I have.

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Speaker 1: Steve didn't know it yet, but Amy was once at

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Speaker 1: a crossroads too, figuring out how she wanted Sandy in

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Speaker 1: her life. For a couple of years, she stopped talking

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Speaker 1: to their mom entirely. You see, Amy had her fair

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Speaker 1: sheriff suffering under Sandy's roof. In this chapter, we'll go

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Speaker 1: back to Amy's childhood and hear her mixed feelings a

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Speaker 1: better upbringing. Steve missed all of it back then, but

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Speaker 1: he was about to learn the trauma that shot through

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Speaker 1: his birth family was worse than he could have imagined.

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Speaker 1: My name is Todd Matthews and this is hello John Doe,

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Speaker 1: a sleuth, a family, and a serial killer. The story

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Speaker 1: of the family torn apart by a tragedy and my

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Speaker 1: quest to bring them back together. Chapter eight, The Trouble

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Speaker 1: Closer to Home. Amy's a bus driver in Isla, White County.

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Speaker 1: It's a mostly rural county in eastern Virginia. Every day

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Speaker 1: she makes her rounds and opens those doors with a smile.

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Speaker 2: Those are my children. You don't know what their life

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Speaker 2: is like outside of the time you see them.

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Speaker 1: In a lot of cases, she just doesn't know what

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Speaker 1: kind of home the kids are going back to maybe

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Speaker 1: they're going hungry, maybe their parents just turn around.

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Speaker 5: Maybe it's worse.

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Speaker 2: I know that I may be the only smile they

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Speaker 2: get in the day. I may be the only I

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Speaker 2: love you, or I may be the only one that say, hey,

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Speaker 2: we don't behave like that.

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Speaker 1: To know Amy Winkles is to know what a big

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Speaker 1: heart she has. She lets everyone in her kids, her family,

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Speaker 1: even me. But she wasn't always this way.

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Speaker 2: I beat all my brothers and sisters up all the time.

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Speaker 1: When she was a kid. Amy was a bully of sorts.

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Speaker 1: She often acted out. When I met her in Virginia,

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Speaker 1: he was warm and friendly. She laughed a lot. I

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Speaker 1: had a hard time squaring Nat with the raide she

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Speaker 1: carried around in childhood.

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Speaker 2: I was a fighter and then Dodi was the angel.

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Speaker 2: So I was secretly beating tar out at Dodie wife. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'd beat her up when nobody else was around.

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Speaker 1: Dodie is Dorothy Sandy's youngest. Amy grew up in Sandy's

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Speaker 1: house in coastal Virginia. Her dad was Dennis Brandenburg, the

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Speaker 1: professional gambler.

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Speaker 2: It's not a whole lot to tell. I mean, we

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Speaker 2: grew up your typical low income family, but.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't raised by her father. Amy was raised by Carson,

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Speaker 1: Sandy's last husband, who died in twenty ten, the one

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Speaker 1: she was married to for thirty years, who she called Sonny.

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Speaker 2: He was the only dad I ever knew. I never

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Speaker 2: got to meet my dad. I was told that he

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Speaker 2: died before I was born.

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Speaker 1: Later, Amy learned that wasn't true. Dennis wasn't dead after all,

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Speaker 1: Sandy said Dennis his grandmother lied to her.

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Speaker 5: Anyway.

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Speaker 1: Growing up, Amy was violent toward her siblings, but she

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Speaker 1: didn't really get why she kept laying her hands on them.

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Speaker 1: Much later, she was able to connect it to something

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Speaker 1: she dealt with as a child.

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Speaker 2: Carson abused me from the time I was seven until

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Speaker 2: I got out. It was sexual abuse. The whole nine yards.

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Speaker 2: Anything you can think of happen happened from seven until

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Speaker 2: I was fourteen. It started when I was seven.

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Speaker 1: For several years, Amy didn't speak up, which is common.

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Speaker 1: By the way, Amy was scared to fight back against Carson,

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Speaker 1: her stepfather, or even to tell her mom. Sandy told

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Speaker 1: us herself that she didn't always speak the right guy

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Speaker 1: in her life, but she thought her husband of thirty years,

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Speaker 1: the one that stuck around was the exception that Amy

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Speaker 1: said that her mama often chose men over her kids,

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Speaker 1: and Sandy could have a temper.

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Speaker 2: If she had a man, she was fine. The time

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Speaker 2: she didn't have a man, it was hell. It was

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Speaker 2: like she was mad at all of us kids because

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Speaker 2: she didn't have a man.

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Speaker 1: The sexual abuse went on for seven years. At the

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Speaker 1: beginning of high school, Amy met a boy named Mike Winkles.

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Speaker 2: My husband and I are high school sweethearts. We started

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Speaker 2: dating the first day of school. I was in ninth grade.

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Speaker 2: He was a senior. He knocked my books out of

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Speaker 2: my hand going down the hallway, and I grabbed his

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Speaker 2: ear and made him pick a up right in front

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Speaker 2: of all his friends. And we haven't been separated since.

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Speaker 1: One day when they were in high school, Mike was

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Speaker 1: ob at Amy's house, Carson, her stepfather had a strange request.

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Speaker 2: For Mike asked him to go buy him some condoms.

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Speaker 1: This startled Mike and it made him realize his girlfriend

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Speaker 1: was being abused by her stepfather. He got angry and

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Speaker 1: told Amy she was coming with him.

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Speaker 2: I went to the house and packed it back. He said,

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Speaker 2: you're leaving now, and I don't know if it's just

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Speaker 2: when he said, why does your dad want me to

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Speaker 2: go buy condoms or whatever? And I think I might

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Speaker 2: have blurted out so he can use them on me.

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Speaker 1: And that's when Amy went to her mother, Sandy.

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Speaker 2: She believed me because he didn't deny it. I said

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Speaker 2: something to her, and she said something to him, and

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Speaker 2: he admitted to it. He never denied the abuse.

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Speaker 5: Never I asked Sandy about it.

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Speaker 6: She said that her dad had touched her, that Sonny

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Speaker 6: had touched her. So I confront of him right away

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Speaker 6: about it.

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Speaker 5: Then she kicked him out.

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Speaker 6: I made him leave. He was gone for a long time.

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Speaker 6: He went to jail because of us.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty seven, Carsonus found guilty of sodomy and

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Speaker 1: aggravated sexual battery and sentenced to one year in jail

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Speaker 1: and forum probation. According to court records, when Amy told

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Speaker 1: her mother what her stepfather had done, Sandy believed her,

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Speaker 1: But what happened next caused the relationship to break down.

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Speaker 2: Did she kicked me out? We went for two years.

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Speaker 2: We didn't talked, two years, not a word.

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Speaker 1: So Amy was all of fourteen when she spoke up

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Speaker 1: about being sexually abused.

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Speaker 5: She told me.

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Speaker 1: From that moment on, she studied her boyfriend Mike's house

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Speaker 1: with his family, and that's how it went. I asked

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Speaker 1: Sandy if she kicked Damie out after she told her

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Speaker 1: about the abuse, and she swore Amy left of her

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Speaker 1: own volition.

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Speaker 6: No, I did not blame her. I believe it.

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Speaker 1: Then Sandy didn't deny Carson's abuse, but had a different

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Speaker 1: perspective on what happened after. But you didn't ask, really,

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Speaker 1: so she finally ended up going to live with Mike

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Speaker 1: in his house. And so you didn't ask for the

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Speaker 1: lead because she felt like you did.

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Speaker 6: No, no, no, okay. Mike's parents let Mike do whatever

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Speaker 6: they wanted to do, and they had no curfew, no rules,

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Speaker 6: no nothing. And you know, at fifteen, no curse, you,

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Speaker 6: no rule. If you don't want to go to school,

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Speaker 6: you don't go to school. It sounds really good. So

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Speaker 6: she went and told my family that she couldn't live

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Speaker 6: with us anymore because we were too strict, and she

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Speaker 6: went to lived at mike house.

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Speaker 1: Obviously the two have conflicting stories, but think about it.

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Speaker 1: Amy was just a teenager. Sandy was the parent. If

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Speaker 1: she had made a fuss and told Amy to get

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Speaker 1: her ayes home, she likely would have instead. Mother and

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Speaker 1: daughter didn't talk for two whole years. After Carson served

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Speaker 1: us one year behind bars, Sandy allowed him to move

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Speaker 1: back in with her and the rest of the kids. Sandy,

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Speaker 1: who had gotten herself out of what she calls an

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Speaker 1: overbearing household in Detroit, then lived with PTSD plus the

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Speaker 1: loss of two kids, finally met a guy who treated

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Speaker 1: her right, but lost contact with her daughter as a result.

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Speaker 1: Her husband abused her daughter, and Sandy still welcomed him

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Speaker 1: back after he served his time.

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Speaker 2: He did his time, but I wasn't allowed to go back.

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Speaker 1: My experients were caring, they were often around, but they

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Speaker 1: also had expectations. Amy is telling this different than Sandy's.

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Speaker 1: Amy says, my experients were more strict.

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Speaker 2: You follow the rules, of course, you had to go

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Speaker 2: to school. At school. Before I moved in with them,

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Speaker 2: I missed fifty four d's and I got caught sleeping

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Speaker 2: in the parking lot in the car, and Mom would

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Speaker 2: write notes like Amy was absent because she went to

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Speaker 2: get her lazy ass out of bed. They'd excuse it.

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Speaker 1: And even though Amy recognized her generosity and taking her in,

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Speaker 1: and even though she loved Mike, she still had a

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Speaker 1: tough time following those rules to a tea or choosing

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Speaker 1: to do the right thing, or even knowing what the

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Speaker 1: right thing even was.

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Speaker 2: I'm not an angel, don't get me wrong. I've done

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Speaker 2: some shady shit. I've drained our bank accounts. I've stole

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Speaker 2: from his parents. You know, I didn't know what it

300
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Speaker 2: was like having money. So when I moved on with them,

301
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Speaker 2: and you had all these things and if you wanted it,

302
00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,400
Speaker 2: you got it, and things like, I didn't understand that

303
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:08,440
Speaker 2: you worked for it before you could get it.

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Speaker 1: Eventually something started to shifting Amy. She recognized what was

305
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Speaker 1: going on. This was stability.

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Speaker 2: There was always food. I just remember that there's always

307
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Speaker 2: food to be like, oh you can get seconds, or

308
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Speaker 2: you can get more.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: It was just a complete flip flop of everything that

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Speaker 2: I had got used to growing up. It was weird

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00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:35,960
Speaker 2: at first because I didn't know. I didn't know what love,

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Speaker 2: what it really felt like.

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Speaker 5: And she stopped acting out.

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Speaker 2: I didn't fight anymore. I didn't get in fights. It's

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Speaker 2: just things just changed. So it was a blessing.

317
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Speaker 1: Things got better for Amy, but her relationship with her

318
00:16:53,040 --> 00:17:01,800
Speaker 1: mama remained fractured. So let me wrap my mind around this.

319
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Speaker 1: Amy's mam married a serial killer who kidnapped and killed

320
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Speaker 1: Amy's sister Susy and her nephew, Michael. Unlike Susanne, Amy lived,

321
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Speaker 1: She survived, and she can tell her story. Amy escaped

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Speaker 1: the clutches of her monster. What's striking him as the

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Speaker 1: parallel like her sister Amy and during sexual abuse at

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Speaker 1: the hands of her own stepfather, even though she grew

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Speaker 1: up in a different place and even though she stayed

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Speaker 1: with her mom, she dealt with similar demons. Things are

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Speaker 1: really complicated. For several years between Sandy and her daughter,

328
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Speaker 1: and then in twenty ten, Carson had a heart attack

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Speaker 1: and died suddenly. He and Sandy were on a trip

330
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Speaker 1: together in Michigan at the time. Sandy couldn't drive home,

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Speaker 1: so Amy went to get her. Death opened a door

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Speaker 1: for them. Amy tried to fill Carson's role.

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Speaker 2: If she wanted something, he found a way to get

334
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Speaker 2: it for. You know, whether it meant when extra jobs

335
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,520
Speaker 2: or barter room with somebody or whatever. He got it for.

336
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Speaker 5: So Amy did the same thing.

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Speaker 2: She is one of the first ones that a woe

338
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Speaker 2: is me In a second, I fell for it for

339
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Speaker 2: a long time. After Carson died, I paid her bills

340
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Speaker 2: and forgot our bills, didn't pay our bills.

341
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Speaker 1: By this point, Amy was about forty and married to Mike,

342
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Speaker 1: her high school sweetheart, so you know, it.

343
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Speaker 2: Almost cost me a marriage. And then he was like,

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Speaker 2: you gotta stop.

345
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Speaker 1: That's when Sandy and Amy stopped talking again. During that time,

346
00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,240
Speaker 1: the FBI agents knocked on Sandy's door. They asked for

347
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Speaker 1: DNA samples so they could figure out if she was Susie.

348
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Speaker 1: Saveka's his mom. You know this story. This is where

349
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Speaker 1: Sandy realized Susie had been killed by Floyd. For the

350
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Speaker 1: first few weeks after Sandy found out, Amy just blew

351
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Speaker 1: her off, didn't believe that she was telling her the

352
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Speaker 1: truth about Susie. She realized there was an entire book

353
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Speaker 1: about her sister that Sandy wasn't lying. Her sister was

354
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Speaker 1: out there for two decades, and Amy had no idea

355
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Speaker 1: someone could have saved Susie.

356
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Speaker 2: It made me so mad to know that she was alive.

357
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Speaker 2: We knew she had gotten kidnapped. MoMA always said she

358
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,399
Speaker 2: got kidnapped, but because I couldn't remember, I was like, whatever,

359
00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,640
Speaker 2: you're so full shit, whatever, because she lies a lot.

360
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Speaker 2: She's always lied a lot my whole life.

361
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Speaker 1: This was a turning point. Amy started to talk to

362
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Speaker 1: her mom again. It was a tragic way to reunite

363
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 1: a family, but it is a silver lining. Sandy had

364
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Speaker 1: to make peace with the fact that she lost a daughter,

365
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:46,040
Speaker 1: but in this moment of utter agony, she was reunited

366
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Speaker 1: with another. Then, in twenty nineteen, the family found the

367
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Speaker 1: biggest silver lining in the whole story. Steve Patterson was alive.

368
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Speaker 2: I feel a little guilty because I didn't get to

369
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 2: grow up with him I didn't get to p protect

370
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Speaker 2: him or show him how to do things, or you know,

371
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Speaker 2: things a big sister would do.

372
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Speaker 1: Now Amy's in her fifties and Sandy's in her seventies.

373
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Speaker 1: They only live about an hour apart from each other.

374
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Speaker 2: I forgave, I forgave, I forgive, I forgave, And Steven says,

375
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Speaker 2: do you talk to Trim like you? I almost every day.

376
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Speaker 2: I just saw her yesterday. I mean, you would think

377
00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 2: we were a normal TV family or whatever. Like nobody

378
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 2: knows the dark secrets.

379
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Speaker 1: Amy has that essence about her. You just kind of

380
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,840
Speaker 1: feel comfortable, like she's seen some shit and doesn't judge

381
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Speaker 1: you whatsoever.

382
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 2: I love my mom, I really do. Do I like

383
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Speaker 2: her sometimes?

384
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Speaker 4: No?

385
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Speaker 2: Do I like the choices she's made some? No, but

386
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Speaker 2: I love her. She's still my mom.

387
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Speaker 1: Amy's lived long enough to realize everybody's done something they

388
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Speaker 1: ain't proud of. After all, Amy used to beat up

389
00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,359
Speaker 1: her siblings. She put her marriage on the line. Amy

390
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: is mature enough to realize she's not perfect, and neither

391
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Speaker 1: is their mama.

392
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Speaker 2: Am I mad at her?

393
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Speaker 5: Yes?

394
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 2: Hell, yeah, I'm pissed. I just can't walk away. You know,

395
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 2: after everything I've been through, I cannot walk away.

396
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Speaker 5: And you forgive her?

397
00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,080
Speaker 2: I think. I don't know if I forgive her or

398
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Speaker 2: just to accept her. I'm a grown woman, I have

399
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:30,120
Speaker 2: children of mine. I've seen shit, been through shit. Everybody

400
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 2: has a past. Everybody has a past.

401
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,000
Speaker 1: At this point in her life, Amy sees lots of

402
00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,639
Speaker 1: people as worthy of love and forgiveness, even if they

403
00:21:42,680 --> 00:21:45,360
Speaker 1: do some messed up things. That's part of why she's

404
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 1: good at her job and.

405
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 2: Drive a school bus cause of little kids, the children

406
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 2: I have. Nobody wanted those children because they were so

407
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 2: out of control. They needed to be held responsible for

408
00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 2: their behavior. I know what it's like to not feel love,

409
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,560
Speaker 2: and I think that plays a big part on how

410
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 2: much compassion and patience I have. They love me, they

411
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: have my phone number, they call me, they text me,

412
00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: We talk trash.

413
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 1: Based on what Amy's telling me about growing up, she

414
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,760
Speaker 1: could have used someone like this, someone that gave her

415
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: both disciplined and unshakeable compassion.

416
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Speaker 5: I guess she'd call that tough love.

417
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,479
Speaker 1: A few years ago, Amy had a heart attack. It

418
00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:29,440
Speaker 1: happened around the time she was getting to know Steve.

419
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if that's why she opened up to Steve,

420
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,359
Speaker 1: but maybe it made her more inclined to get to

421
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,560
Speaker 1: know him better. In middle age, Amy's come closer and

422
00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 1: closer to this truth. We're more than her past, and

423
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 1: we can dig out I need.

424
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 2: People don't understand. You're not about your past. Your past

425
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 2: is you passed. And I tell the kids all the

426
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,720
Speaker 2: time if they have a bad morning on the bus,

427
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,960
Speaker 2: make better choices when you get into school, and that

428
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 2: it's just who I am. I don't know.

429
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 1: I think that's that's what's louder. To talk to her

430
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: mom again and to be someone Steve feels so comfortable with.

431
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I felt comfortable meeting her for the first time.

432
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 1: She's incredibly warm, has this wonderful belly life. She welcomed

433
00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,080
Speaker 1: me with open arms, and I can imagine the way

434
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 1: she embraced her little brother.

435
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 2: I think we can make up for loss her just

436
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 2: to know that they're there. They're there.

437
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 5: In a way.

438
00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: Both siblings are dealing with a lot of wiffs right now.

439
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 1: Steve's wondering what it might have been like growing up

440
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 1: in Sandy's house, and Amy wonders what it might have

441
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 1: been like if she was adopted by Mary. They didn't

442
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: grow up in the same house. But lately they're both

443
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: thinking about the road not taking.

444
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 2: I feel like he's a little bit jealous because I

445
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,919
Speaker 2: had our actual warm and I'm jealous that he didn't

446
00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: have her, And I think he feels guilty because he

447
00:23:51,760 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 2: had a natural life.

448
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,680
Speaker 1: On one hand, they both envy each other a little bit.

449
00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: On the other hand, they're envia something the two of

450
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,200
Speaker 1: them have in common. There's also a truth that both

451
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,360
Speaker 1: had to confront. They're both lucky to be here. When

452
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 1: their sister, Susy didn't survive. Franklin Floyd could have taken

453
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: either of them too. Amy can see the big picture

454
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,199
Speaker 1: now that Steve avoided the clutches of Franklin Floyd. But

455
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 1: I don't think Steve's there yet. He still believes he

456
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: was thrown away. He can't fully see that he's alive

457
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 1: because his mom gave him away.

458
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: So although he had a good life with Mary and

459
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 2: her raising him and everything, I still feel like he's

460
00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 2: upset that he was given away, you know, instead of

461
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 2: being part of the family. He was given away when

462
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 2: in all reality has saved his life.

463
00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 1: Steve and Amy chose each other, filled a hole in

464
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 1: each other's lives. But Dorothy, Sandy's youngest daughter, hasn't got

465
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: to know her long lost brother as well, not the

466
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,439
Speaker 1: way Amy has. Li was down the street from Sandy,

467
00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: so she was right there when she found out Steve

468
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:04,639
Speaker 1: was alive.

469
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 4: She said, you wouldn't believe who got in contact with me.

470
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 4: I was like, who Stephen Phillips my son?

471
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:14,240
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh, Dorothy is the child of

472
00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 1: Sandy and Carson, a child from that last long marriage.

473
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: Growing up, she thought Stephen gone missing. Now she learned

474
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: he was living one state over in North Carolina.

475
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,320
Speaker 4: I feel like the how can I say it's the

476
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 4: keeper of everybody? I'm always in everybody's business.

477
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,720
Speaker 1: So naturally, Dorothy found him on Facebook and started snooping.

478
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 4: And I was like, oh my god, he looks just

479
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 4: like my grandfather. I knew he was family automatically because

480
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 4: he We all have the same eyes, the almond shape

481
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,400
Speaker 4: of him, we all have them. I'm a text message here.

482
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 4: I told him and say, hey, I'm your younger sister,

483
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: and and we talked.

484
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,959
Speaker 1: Dorothy was super excited to know this brother of hers.

485
00:25:57,119 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: She got to FaceTime with him.

486
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 4: And I taught him. I was like, you know, look, dude,

487
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 4: I was like, we take trips down in North Carolina

488
00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 4: a bunch.

489
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 1: She and her husband go down there for motorcycling events.

490
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 1: She tried to get in touch, come on through.

491
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 4: You know, I can get you into the pit. Not

492
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 4: a problem.

493
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,479
Speaker 1: Steve never responded. I don't know why I didn't, and

494
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if he plans to. When I played

495
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: him some of Dorothy's interview, he didn't seem to even

496
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:27,360
Speaker 1: really process that he had another sister. From his perspective,

497
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 1: it seemed he had three older sisters, Susie, Allison, and Amy,

498
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 1: but he didn't really take Dorothy into account the same

499
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: way she did him. It was almost like he drew

500
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: a line between siblings born before him and those Sandy

501
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 1: kept actors. She let him go and Dorothy ended up

502
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 1: feeling rejected.

503
00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 4: Where did we go wrong? Because we were talking. I

504
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 4: just want to know where we went wrong. I just

505
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 4: I want to hold him. He's my brother.

506
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: Dorothy had already started making space in her life Steve,

507
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,400
Speaker 1: even before she knew he was still alive. She told

508
00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: her kids about his disappearance.

509
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 4: All of my kids know the story. I mean even

510
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 4: my stepsons, they know the story. And in that short

511
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 4: time that I did video chat with him, I knew

512
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 4: right then and there he's perfect.

513
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:23,040
Speaker 1: He's perfect.

514
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:24,120
Speaker 4: He is us.

515
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: This is what it looks like on the flip side,

516
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 1: to find a lost brother, but to have him not

517
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:40,440
Speaker 1: claim you. As of Tray Steph's family tree, I've thought

518
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,360
Speaker 1: a lot about meeting long lost relatives who we let

519
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: in and who we keep at arms link, Sharon Blood,

520
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 1: isn't enough. Being in someone's life is a choice that

521
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: two people have to make. We asked Eve about what

522
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: it's been like finding his sisters after all this time.

523
00:27:56,320 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: Anything you want it out of us just to get

524
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 3: the I guess, just to get to know him a

525
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 3: little bit better.

526
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 7: I would like to know who my dad is. I mean,

527
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 7: that's one of the biggest things for me, I think,

528
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 7: out of this whole situation, but I could get the

529
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 7: get to know the girls a little bit better'd be

530
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 7: pretty cool.

531
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: He said, he wants to get to know his sisters

532
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 1: a little better. But it might be that he only

533
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: wants to get to know his older sisters, not the

534
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: one Sandy birth and raised after giving him away. Maybe

535
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: that's why when Steve went looking for Sandy's family, he

536
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: wasn't totally satisfied with what he found. He's told me,

537
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,639
Speaker 1: still skeptical of her story, that she didn't realize she

538
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: was giving him up permanently, that she worked hard to

539
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: find him, and there was no doubt his biggest interest

540
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,600
Speaker 1: was finding his father. I decided to help him. Look

541
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: what we found.

542
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:50,120
Speaker 5: Surprised us both.

543
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 1: That's next time on Hello John Doe.

544
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 2: He wants those answers. We're going to do everything we

545
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: can and as a family to help him get those answers.

546
00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: Hello John Doe is an original productions by Revelations Entertainment

547
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,520
Speaker 1: in association with First and last productions from Revelation.

548
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 5: Our executive producers.

549
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 1: Are Morgan Freeman and James Younger from first to last.

550
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: Lindsay Moreno is the executive producer. Our producing partner is

551
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:23,959
Speaker 1: neo On Home Media. It was written and produced by

552
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: Kate Michigan. Our editor is Katherine Saint Louis. She is

553
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: also neil On Home Media's executive editor. Our executive producer

554
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: is Sharah Morris. Our development producer is Ian Lindsay. Our

555
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 1: associate producer is Rufaro Faith Maserua. Sound design and mixing

556
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: by Scott Servell. Themon original music composed by Jesse Pearlstein.

557
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: Additional music came from Epidemic Sound and Blue Dot Sessions.

558
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: Vindall Faulton is our fact checker. Our production manager is

559
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 1: Samantha Allison from my Heart Media. Dylan Fagan is our

560
00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: executive producer. Special thanks to Adelia Ruben at ne On

561
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: Hum and Carrie Lieberman and Will Pru at iHeartMedia.

562
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 5: I'm Todd Matthews. You can learn more about name us

563
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 5: at nam us dot com.

564
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: The number for the National Center for Missing Exploited Children's

565
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 1: Call Center is one eight hundred. The loss that's one

566
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:15,680
Speaker 1: eight hundred, eight four three five six seven eight. The

567
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: National Sexual assauld hotline from the Rate Abuse and Incest

568
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: National Network is one eight hundred sixty five six four

569
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: six seven three. Okay, guys, this is the end of

570
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: the show. If you didn't like it, don't do anything.

571
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: But if you did like it, you make sure that

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Speaker 1: your rate and review the show. It helps more people

573
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: to find it and hear this wonderful story. Thanks again

574
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: for listening.