1
00:00:14,076 --> 00:00:31,116
Speaker 1: Push it in. I'm Khalil Jibron Muhammad.

2
00:00:31,756 --> 00:00:36,076
Speaker 2: I'm Ben Austen. We're two best friends, one black, one white.

3
00:00:36,596 --> 00:00:39,956
Speaker 3: I'm a historian and I'm a journalist. And this is

4
00:00:39,996 --> 00:00:41,476
Speaker 3: some of my best friends are.

5
00:00:42,236 --> 00:00:45,316
Speaker 2: Some of my best friends are In this show, we

6
00:00:45,356 --> 00:00:47,036
Speaker 2: wrestle with the challenges and.

7
00:00:46,956 --> 00:00:49,556
Speaker 3: The absurdities of a deeply.

8
00:00:49,236 --> 00:00:51,316
Speaker 2: Divided and unequal country.

9
00:00:51,876 --> 00:00:54,076
Speaker 3: In this episode, we are taking a deeper look at

10
00:00:54,116 --> 00:00:56,236
Speaker 3: a human being who helped lead a movement to end

11
00:00:56,316 --> 00:01:00,036
Speaker 3: racism in America. He paid the ultimate price for changing

12
00:01:00,036 --> 00:01:03,316
Speaker 3: the course of history, even though we still haven't lived

13
00:01:03,356 --> 00:01:04,476
Speaker 3: up to his dream.

14
00:01:04,596 --> 00:01:07,876
Speaker 2: Hm hm, Well put Khalil because we are talking, of

15
00:01:07,916 --> 00:01:12,076
Speaker 2: course about the doctor Martin Luther King Jr. And today

16
00:01:12,076 --> 00:01:15,476
Speaker 2: on the show, we're talking to my friend Jonathan I

17
00:01:16,156 --> 00:01:20,316
Speaker 2: who has a new biography called King A Life Man.

18
00:01:20,356 --> 00:01:24,196
Speaker 2: He did dozens of new interviews of firsthand witnesses to

19
00:01:24,396 --> 00:01:28,396
Speaker 2: history and also examine never before seeing FBI documents.

20
00:01:28,716 --> 00:01:32,116
Speaker 3: Jonathan also wrote one of the foremost and most recent

21
00:01:32,116 --> 00:01:35,796
Speaker 3: biographies of Muhammad Ali, which includes stories about my great

22
00:01:35,836 --> 00:01:38,316
Speaker 3: grandpa Elijah Muhammad Man.

23
00:01:38,436 --> 00:01:40,116
Speaker 1: Don't you wish he did someone yours?

24
00:01:41,236 --> 00:01:45,436
Speaker 2: You just stole my line khalil.

25
00:01:50,996 --> 00:01:51,196
Speaker 4: Ah.

26
00:01:51,236 --> 00:01:54,236
Speaker 3: Man, you know, I am excited about this conversation with Jonathan,

27
00:01:54,236 --> 00:01:56,356
Speaker 3: but I wanted to start us off by just telling

28
00:01:56,396 --> 00:01:58,716
Speaker 3: you and like having a conversation about the first time

29
00:01:58,756 --> 00:01:59,676
Speaker 3: I learned about King.

30
00:01:59,996 --> 00:02:00,676
Speaker 1: But you go first.

31
00:02:00,716 --> 00:02:03,036
Speaker 3: When did you first like have a King encounter?

32
00:02:04,396 --> 00:02:07,836
Speaker 2: Okay, So we didn't go to the same grade school,

33
00:02:07,836 --> 00:02:10,956
Speaker 2: the same elementary school, but my public school on the

34
00:02:10,996 --> 00:02:13,836
Speaker 2: South Side that we had a King celebration every year

35
00:02:13,876 --> 00:02:17,076
Speaker 2: in February, and it was it was always music. There

36
00:02:17,076 --> 00:02:19,316
Speaker 2: were always like these people who came in and had

37
00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:21,436
Speaker 2: us sing songs together, and it was kind of wonderful,

38
00:02:21,916 --> 00:02:25,556
Speaker 2: but it was also like the more sort of anodyne

39
00:02:25,676 --> 00:02:28,476
Speaker 2: version of King. I now know, you know, like, uh,

40
00:02:29,116 --> 00:02:31,956
Speaker 2: you know, doctor King told us about his dream kind

41
00:02:31,956 --> 00:02:34,756
Speaker 2: of kind of songs. Yes, what about you.

42
00:02:35,156 --> 00:02:37,556
Speaker 3: Well, the funny thing is, man, I have no recollection

43
00:02:37,596 --> 00:02:40,996
Speaker 3: of doctor King throughout middle school or high school, and

44
00:02:41,236 --> 00:02:43,716
Speaker 3: that's probably not what happened. I'm sure at some point,

45
00:02:44,036 --> 00:02:46,316
Speaker 3: you know, there was one of those really tired, you know,

46
00:02:46,396 --> 00:02:50,116
Speaker 3: profile images of him on the bulletin board at some point.

47
00:02:50,596 --> 00:02:54,396
Speaker 3: So in college, though, I had a real sort of

48
00:02:55,036 --> 00:02:59,156
Speaker 3: come to King moment where I confronted face to face

49
00:02:59,356 --> 00:03:04,596
Speaker 3: like the controversy and the politicized backlash against the early

50
00:03:04,676 --> 00:03:08,436
Speaker 3: days of King's holiday. So got to Penn in Philadelphia

51
00:03:08,756 --> 00:03:11,196
Speaker 3: in late nineteen eighties and I was a freshman. They

52
00:03:11,236 --> 00:03:15,996
Speaker 3: were just institutionalizing annual King rituals, and that was kind

53
00:03:16,036 --> 00:03:17,556
Speaker 3: of the beginning for me. It was the first time

54
00:03:17,596 --> 00:03:20,036
Speaker 3: I ever remember like not doing anything but learning about

55
00:03:20,036 --> 00:03:23,876
Speaker 3: doctor King. But fast forward two years later, my junior year,

56
00:03:23,956 --> 00:03:28,116
Speaker 3: and a columnist at Penn writes a searing critique of

57
00:03:28,196 --> 00:03:31,836
Speaker 3: the annual celebrations of Doctor King now two years later

58
00:03:32,276 --> 00:03:36,516
Speaker 3: and basically said, yeah, he said, this dude was a

59
00:03:36,596 --> 00:03:39,996
Speaker 3: communist who wanted to take money from white people to

60
00:03:40,036 --> 00:03:43,876
Speaker 3: redistribute it to black people. And man, I took this

61
00:03:44,476 --> 00:03:47,956
Speaker 3: so personally that I organized one of the first student

62
00:03:47,996 --> 00:03:51,916
Speaker 3: demonstrations that I ever participated in. And in some ways,

63
00:03:52,316 --> 00:03:55,436
Speaker 3: it was that moment that made me think that I

64
00:03:55,476 --> 00:03:59,476
Speaker 3: don't really know enough about doctor King's actual life to

65
00:03:59,516 --> 00:04:02,636
Speaker 3: defend his legacy. And I felt a little bit vulnerable

66
00:04:02,996 --> 00:04:06,636
Speaker 3: in being emotionally upset about what I read but not

67
00:04:06,796 --> 00:04:09,876
Speaker 3: really understanding, like was doctor King communists?

68
00:04:10,396 --> 00:04:11,836
Speaker 2: And what does it mean? And what does that mean

69
00:04:11,876 --> 00:04:13,836
Speaker 2: to redistribute wealth. Is that even a bad thing?

70
00:04:14,076 --> 00:04:14,556
Speaker 1: Exactly?

71
00:04:15,116 --> 00:04:18,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. So let's hear from John. He's

72
00:04:18,236 --> 00:04:20,396
Speaker 2: going to help us understand this more. And we both

73
00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:23,756
Speaker 2: read this book, King of Life, and let's jump into

74
00:04:23,796 --> 00:04:24,436
Speaker 2: this conversation.

75
00:04:24,796 --> 00:04:31,556
Speaker 3: Let's do it, all right, John, John, I welcome to

76
00:04:31,596 --> 00:04:33,436
Speaker 3: some of my best friends are man. This is such

77
00:04:33,636 --> 00:04:37,276
Speaker 3: a treat to have you a Chicagoan, a biographer of

78
00:04:37,756 --> 00:04:40,276
Speaker 3: part of my family history. This is a very special

79
00:04:40,276 --> 00:04:43,676
Speaker 3: moment for me, and I know you and Ben have

80
00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:45,076
Speaker 3: some history yourselves.

81
00:04:45,196 --> 00:04:47,076
Speaker 4: Thanks Khalil, I'm excited to talk to you guys.

82
00:04:47,756 --> 00:04:52,196
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, congratulations on this amazing book, King a Life.

83
00:04:52,996 --> 00:04:57,276
Speaker 2: It's now a national bestseller and very worthy of it,

84
00:04:57,396 --> 00:04:58,836
Speaker 2: and so congrats.

85
00:04:59,196 --> 00:05:02,476
Speaker 3: Thanks feeling Yes, So, I mean, here is a man

86
00:05:02,636 --> 00:05:06,236
Speaker 3: who may be one of the most celebrated and misunderstood

87
00:05:06,236 --> 00:05:09,996
Speaker 3: figures in American history. I I was really excited to

88
00:05:10,036 --> 00:05:12,556
Speaker 3: read this. I know that she found some new things.

89
00:05:12,716 --> 00:05:15,676
Speaker 3: And I guess one way to start this conversation is

90
00:05:15,756 --> 00:05:19,156
Speaker 3: just like you know, doctor King is captured as its

91
00:05:19,236 --> 00:05:22,116
Speaker 3: adult civil rights icon. But of course he was a kid,

92
00:05:22,556 --> 00:05:25,196
Speaker 3: and so tell us something new about his childhood that

93
00:05:25,236 --> 00:05:26,596
Speaker 3: would surprise our listeners.

94
00:05:26,596 --> 00:05:27,476
Speaker 1: That would surprise us.

95
00:05:27,476 --> 00:05:28,756
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, a lot of people don't know

96
00:05:28,796 --> 00:05:31,676
Speaker 5: he went by Mike Little Mike actually for most of

97
00:05:31,716 --> 00:05:33,396
Speaker 5: his childhood, and even when he went to college, he

98
00:05:33,436 --> 00:05:36,436
Speaker 5: was still introducing himself as Mike Little Mike. King was

99
00:05:36,836 --> 00:05:39,796
Speaker 5: little because his dad was big Mike, and also because

100
00:05:39,796 --> 00:05:43,396
Speaker 5: he was small. He was, you know, at maximum height,

101
00:05:43,436 --> 00:05:46,956
Speaker 5: he reached five to seven, so he was he was.

102
00:05:47,076 --> 00:05:50,236
Speaker 5: He skipped a couple grades, so, you know, elementary school,

103
00:05:50,316 --> 00:05:53,396
Speaker 5: high school. He was two years younger than his classmates.

104
00:05:53,396 --> 00:05:55,676
Speaker 5: And he was short to begin with, so that might

105
00:05:55,676 --> 00:05:57,756
Speaker 5: be why he grew the mustache as quickly as he could,

106
00:05:57,796 --> 00:05:58,556
Speaker 5: as soon as he could.

107
00:06:00,756 --> 00:06:01,916
Speaker 1: Yeah, that reminds me.

108
00:06:01,956 --> 00:06:03,596
Speaker 3: I tell people all the time, you know, I'm not

109
00:06:03,716 --> 00:06:06,396
Speaker 3: much taller than five seven myself. I skipped a gray.

110
00:06:06,836 --> 00:06:08,316
Speaker 3: All the great leaders.

111
00:06:07,956 --> 00:06:09,076
Speaker 1: In the world are short, guy.

112
00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:14,516
Speaker 4: I mean, it's just yeah, me too. It's the only

113
00:06:14,516 --> 00:06:15,716
Speaker 4: thing King and I have in common.

114
00:06:16,316 --> 00:06:18,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, at me too, as somebody who's six three and

115
00:06:19,436 --> 00:06:20,276
Speaker 2: lean and handsome.

116
00:06:20,396 --> 00:06:23,516
Speaker 3: Yeah you're not even sixty three whatever whatever, at best

117
00:06:23,516 --> 00:06:24,276
Speaker 3: six y two.

118
00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:28,436
Speaker 2: So John more about his childhood. This is something in

119
00:06:28,436 --> 00:06:30,716
Speaker 2: the book that surprised me. Can you tell us about

120
00:06:30,756 --> 00:06:33,756
Speaker 2: the premiere of Gone with the Wind and Little Mike's

121
00:06:33,836 --> 00:06:34,956
Speaker 2: role in this premiere.

122
00:06:35,356 --> 00:06:37,956
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is fascinating. You know, the movie premieres and

123
00:06:37,996 --> 00:06:40,596
Speaker 5: it's it's based off the huge best selling books. So

124
00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:43,236
Speaker 5: this is a major event when the movie comes out.

125
00:06:43,316 --> 00:06:46,156
Speaker 5: The biggest stars in Hollywood, Clark Gable is the.

126
00:06:46,196 --> 00:06:46,796
Speaker 4: You know, is the start.

127
00:06:46,836 --> 00:06:50,356
Speaker 5: He flies in on a special jet from Hollywood to

128
00:06:50,476 --> 00:06:53,236
Speaker 5: Atlanta for the premiere and this is the biggest event

129
00:06:53,276 --> 00:06:56,636
Speaker 5: that's hit Atlanta in ages. You know, Atlanta's trying to

130
00:06:56,676 --> 00:06:59,476
Speaker 5: step out, trying to prove that they're a big sophisticated city,

131
00:06:59,796 --> 00:07:02,996
Speaker 5: so they roll out the for Kate Oh man, you're

132
00:07:02,996 --> 00:07:05,836
Speaker 5: gonna put me on the spot nineteen I think the

133
00:07:05,876 --> 00:07:06,276
Speaker 5: film was.

134
00:07:07,916 --> 00:07:10,476
Speaker 4: Thirty nine. Yeah, so.

135
00:07:12,236 --> 00:07:16,076
Speaker 5: This is a great whitewashing of history, of course, because

136
00:07:16,116 --> 00:07:21,556
Speaker 5: we're celebrating the plantation era, we're celebrating slavery, we're celebrating

137
00:07:22,516 --> 00:07:26,316
Speaker 5: you know, this this vision that really cleans up a

138
00:07:26,396 --> 00:07:28,996
Speaker 5: lot of the history. Right, But when it comes to Atlanta,

139
00:07:29,036 --> 00:07:32,756
Speaker 5: Atlanta is just thrilled to have this thing, except maybe

140
00:07:32,756 --> 00:07:34,756
Speaker 5: some people in the black community are not so thrilled

141
00:07:34,956 --> 00:07:38,316
Speaker 5: because they see they're not allowed to go see the

142
00:07:38,316 --> 00:07:39,036
Speaker 5: Hollywood premiere.

143
00:07:39,036 --> 00:07:39,756
Speaker 4: They're not They're not.

144
00:07:39,756 --> 00:07:42,956
Speaker 5: Invited except as servants to work at this great, big

145
00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:44,916
Speaker 5: party that they're throwing for the premiere of the movie.

146
00:07:45,476 --> 00:07:49,396
Speaker 5: And Daddy King's church, Martin Luther King Senior's church, is

147
00:07:49,436 --> 00:07:52,876
Speaker 5: invited to perform at the opening. They still can't come

148
00:07:52,876 --> 00:07:54,836
Speaker 5: in to see the movie, but they're invited to sing

149
00:07:55,476 --> 00:08:00,516
Speaker 5: dressed as slaves standing in front of this mockup of

150
00:08:00,636 --> 00:08:06,076
Speaker 5: the Tara Plantation. And Daddy King accepts the invitation. A

151
00:08:06,156 --> 00:08:09,076
Speaker 5: lot of black leaders in Atlanta are furious with him,

152
00:08:10,516 --> 00:08:14,876
Speaker 5: saying that he should not be endorsing this this event.

153
00:08:16,036 --> 00:08:19,636
Speaker 5: But Martin Luther King Senior, you know, has this complicated

154
00:08:19,676 --> 00:08:22,436
Speaker 5: relationship with the city powers of Atlanta. He wants to

155
00:08:22,476 --> 00:08:24,516
Speaker 5: be a fighter, he wants to stand up for civil rights,

156
00:08:24,516 --> 00:08:27,676
Speaker 5: he wants to push for integration, but he also enjoys

157
00:08:27,676 --> 00:08:30,796
Speaker 5: the fact that he has an audience with with white leaders,

158
00:08:30,836 --> 00:08:33,956
Speaker 5: business leaders, and politicians. So he gives permission for his

159
00:08:34,116 --> 00:08:38,596
Speaker 5: church to appear at this thing, and his wife, Alberta King,

160
00:08:38,716 --> 00:08:43,476
Speaker 5: leads the choir, and the choir is dressed in garments

161
00:08:43,516 --> 00:08:47,276
Speaker 5: depicting them as enslaved people, and young Martin Luther King

162
00:08:47,356 --> 00:08:51,276
Speaker 5: Junior age ten is sitting in the front row singing along.

163
00:08:51,996 --> 00:08:54,956
Speaker 2: Man, John, I want to thank you for telling us

164
00:08:54,996 --> 00:08:57,756
Speaker 2: that that was great, powerful, And I want to follow

165
00:08:57,796 --> 00:08:59,636
Speaker 2: up with something that Khalil said at the start, which

166
00:08:59,676 --> 00:09:02,556
Speaker 2: is like how daunting it is to write a biography

167
00:09:02,676 --> 00:09:05,516
Speaker 2: of King. You know, not only is he mythologized, but

168
00:09:05,556 --> 00:09:07,836
Speaker 2: there's been a lot of other writing. And I'll just say,

169
00:09:07,836 --> 00:09:10,076
Speaker 2: for my part, one of the ways that you kind

170
00:09:10,076 --> 00:09:12,876
Speaker 2: of conquer this is just the writing is so damn good.

171
00:09:12,956 --> 00:09:15,276
Speaker 1: Yes, snap snaps over here, and.

172
00:09:15,236 --> 00:09:17,076
Speaker 2: Just you know, I'll think of one part, which is

173
00:09:16,876 --> 00:09:20,316
Speaker 2: the nineteen sixty three March on Washington when King gives

174
00:09:20,356 --> 00:09:23,036
Speaker 2: his most famous speech. I have a dream. Everyone knows

175
00:09:23,036 --> 00:09:27,196
Speaker 2: this moment, and you tell this moment like almost through

176
00:09:27,196 --> 00:09:31,076
Speaker 2: a prism. You've interviewed a woman who attended, and so

177
00:09:31,156 --> 00:09:33,756
Speaker 2: you shift to her point of view sometimes, and you

178
00:09:33,876 --> 00:09:36,716
Speaker 2: have a guard, this white guard on stage with King

179
00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:39,316
Speaker 2: who's known only for like his hand moving the microphone.

180
00:09:39,356 --> 00:09:41,436
Speaker 2: But you've interviewed him, and so you're able to sort

181
00:09:41,436 --> 00:09:45,676
Speaker 2: of pivot and create this prismatic, full on kind of

182
00:09:45,756 --> 00:09:51,636
Speaker 2: like omniscient moment. It's really just amazing. Can you talk

183
00:09:51,676 --> 00:09:56,156
Speaker 2: a little about about the actual archival research, the documents,

184
00:09:56,316 --> 00:09:59,316
Speaker 2: the things that make this biography different than all the

185
00:09:59,356 --> 00:10:00,036
Speaker 2: previous ones.

186
00:10:00,756 --> 00:10:03,116
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, I went around the country and interviewed

187
00:10:03,236 --> 00:10:06,396
Speaker 5: everybody I could who had any connection to King, and

188
00:10:06,396 --> 00:10:08,956
Speaker 5: I found hundreds of people, lots of scores of people

189
00:10:08,956 --> 00:10:10,796
Speaker 5: who actually knew King. And this is I figured the

190
00:10:10,876 --> 00:10:13,956
Speaker 5: last chance to really run around and meet these people.

191
00:10:13,956 --> 00:10:15,836
Speaker 5: And I've even before I thought about doing a book,

192
00:10:15,876 --> 00:10:17,436
Speaker 5: I just thought, I'm going to travel the country.

193
00:10:17,156 --> 00:10:18,316
Speaker 4: And interview people who knew King.

194
00:10:18,636 --> 00:10:20,116
Speaker 5: And then I interviewed dozens of people who were at

195
00:10:20,156 --> 00:10:21,556
Speaker 5: the march on Washington, as you said.

196
00:10:21,596 --> 00:10:24,356
Speaker 4: And I also had just a ton.

197
00:10:24,196 --> 00:10:26,796
Speaker 5: Of new archival material. You know, we have thousands of

198
00:10:26,796 --> 00:10:28,956
Speaker 5: pages that the FBI has released just in the last

199
00:10:29,036 --> 00:10:32,716
Speaker 5: few years. They keep issue releasing new stuff. And at

200
00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:39,556
Speaker 5: the same time I found Martin Luther King, Senior's unpublished autobiography,

201
00:10:40,436 --> 00:10:44,356
Speaker 5: I found maybe tens of thousands of pages at your

202
00:10:44,396 --> 00:10:50,076
Speaker 5: old favorite haunt, Khalil, the Schomberg Library in Harlem. King's

203
00:10:50,116 --> 00:10:52,076
Speaker 5: personal archivist L. D.

204
00:10:52,236 --> 00:10:52,636
Speaker 4: Reddick.

205
00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:57,236
Speaker 5: He was the official archivist for the for the Southern

206
00:10:57,316 --> 00:11:01,236
Speaker 5: Christian Leadership Conference, and all of his papers were at

207
00:11:01,236 --> 00:11:03,876
Speaker 5: the Schomburg unopened the boxes had not yet been opened,

208
00:11:03,876 --> 00:11:05,276
Speaker 5: they had not even been cataloged.

209
00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:10,036
Speaker 3: Yet most people don't realize that biographies are essentially the

210
00:11:10,076 --> 00:11:13,236
Speaker 3: life blood of biography are the documents. And here you've

211
00:11:13,316 --> 00:11:16,356
Speaker 3: just given us a kind of an insider's perspective on

212
00:11:16,436 --> 00:11:19,756
Speaker 3: what it means to crack open a new collection. But

213
00:11:19,796 --> 00:11:23,036
Speaker 3: you also talk about the FBI records, and in some

214
00:11:23,076 --> 00:11:27,796
Speaker 3: ways they are the backbone of the book. You essentially

215
00:11:27,836 --> 00:11:30,796
Speaker 3: say that these newest FBI records that have recently been

216
00:11:30,916 --> 00:11:35,836
Speaker 3: released show definitively that King was not a tool, not

217
00:11:35,916 --> 00:11:38,916
Speaker 3: connected to had nothing to do with the Communist Party

218
00:11:38,916 --> 00:11:43,236
Speaker 3: of the United States. And in fact, in exploring these

219
00:11:43,316 --> 00:11:46,756
Speaker 3: FBI records, you come to an even more definitive conclusion

220
00:11:47,356 --> 00:11:51,596
Speaker 3: that he was always couching his critique in the American dream,

221
00:11:51,876 --> 00:11:55,316
Speaker 3: in this notion of a kind of constitution that had

222
00:11:55,356 --> 00:11:58,836
Speaker 3: created the possibility for the nation to quote unquote live

223
00:11:58,916 --> 00:11:59,716
Speaker 3: up to its promises.

224
00:11:59,756 --> 00:12:01,316
Speaker 1: Do I have that right? I mean, are we going

225
00:12:01,396 --> 00:12:02,116
Speaker 1: to put this to bed?

226
00:12:02,156 --> 00:12:02,316
Speaker 3: Now?

227
00:12:02,396 --> 00:12:04,596
Speaker 5: Yeah, let's put it to bed. I think the FBI

228
00:12:04,676 --> 00:12:07,396
Speaker 5: have put it to bed. The FBI knew that King

229
00:12:07,436 --> 00:12:10,996
Speaker 5: had nothing, no interest in commune, and they knew that

230
00:12:11,156 --> 00:12:13,876
Speaker 5: he was only using these You know, he had these

231
00:12:13,916 --> 00:12:17,476
Speaker 5: allies who had communists passed because he was trying to

232
00:12:17,476 --> 00:12:19,676
Speaker 5: build a more democratic American society.

233
00:12:19,876 --> 00:12:20,916
Speaker 4: They knew that all along.

234
00:12:20,956 --> 00:12:23,036
Speaker 5: They just couldn't deal with it because they hated him

235
00:12:23,076 --> 00:12:26,556
Speaker 5: so much and because they by that point had him

236
00:12:26,556 --> 00:12:30,676
Speaker 5: in their sights intent on destroying his reputation and breaking

237
00:12:30,756 --> 00:12:32,316
Speaker 5: up you know, his works.

238
00:12:32,396 --> 00:12:36,036
Speaker 3: So yeah, so listen, this is this is a show

239
00:12:36,076 --> 00:12:39,236
Speaker 3: that talks about the absurdities of race, built around an

240
00:12:39,276 --> 00:12:42,356
Speaker 3: interracial friendship that's you know, almost forty years in the making.

241
00:12:42,956 --> 00:12:47,796
Speaker 3: And you are Chicago based author. But I'm always ribbing

242
00:12:47,836 --> 00:12:50,916
Speaker 3: Ben about sort of his choices in life, and one

243
00:12:50,916 --> 00:12:53,436
Speaker 3: of your choices is to focus on black men and

244
00:12:53,516 --> 00:12:57,396
Speaker 3: these biographies you've written about Ali, So tell us, like,

245
00:12:58,036 --> 00:13:00,596
Speaker 3: how did you, as a white writer, come to take

246
00:13:00,676 --> 00:13:04,356
Speaker 3: such a great interest in these, you know, significant black

247
00:13:04,396 --> 00:13:05,476
Speaker 3: figures in American history.

248
00:13:05,476 --> 00:13:07,756
Speaker 5: Well, since you guys go back and talk about childhood

249
00:13:07,796 --> 00:13:10,476
Speaker 5: a lot and show, I'll have to do the same.

250
00:13:10,516 --> 00:13:13,116
Speaker 4: I mean, yes, I'm a little bit older than you guys.

251
00:13:13,156 --> 00:13:15,076
Speaker 5: I was born in sixty four, so I'm going to

252
00:13:15,116 --> 00:13:18,596
Speaker 5: school and I can remember the first day of kindergarten.

253
00:13:19,356 --> 00:13:20,956
Speaker 5: There are no black kids in my neighborhood. But I

254
00:13:20,956 --> 00:13:23,356
Speaker 5: pull up to school and there's busses of white kids

255
00:13:23,396 --> 00:13:28,356
Speaker 5: and there's buses of black kids, and my little six

256
00:13:28,476 --> 00:13:30,476
Speaker 5: year old brain must have been going, Okay, what's going

257
00:13:30,516 --> 00:13:35,436
Speaker 5: on here? And over time, you know, I just normalized it.

258
00:13:35,636 --> 00:13:39,116
Speaker 5: I made friends all through elementary school and high school,

259
00:13:39,876 --> 00:13:43,756
Speaker 5: and by the time I got to college, there were

260
00:13:43,916 --> 00:13:46,756
Speaker 5: African American studies classes available. I didn't realize that that

261
00:13:46,796 --> 00:13:49,076
Speaker 5: was like a fairly new thing at the time, but

262
00:13:49,196 --> 00:13:52,636
Speaker 5: I was excited and I grew up. Also, it's the seventies, right,

263
00:13:52,956 --> 00:13:53,836
Speaker 5: so it's.

264
00:13:53,716 --> 00:13:54,236
Speaker 4: In the air.

265
00:13:54,916 --> 00:13:57,476
Speaker 5: Muhammad Ali is the most famous man on earth, and

266
00:13:57,476 --> 00:14:00,556
Speaker 5: everybody's trying to figure out what he means in terms

267
00:14:00,596 --> 00:14:03,836
Speaker 5: of race relations in America because he's calling it out,

268
00:14:03,836 --> 00:14:06,396
Speaker 5: he's calling out racists, but he's also yucking it up

269
00:14:06,436 --> 00:14:09,436
Speaker 5: on TV with Johnny Carson. So like, my little brain

270
00:14:09,516 --> 00:14:11,676
Speaker 5: is trying to figure this stuff out. Good Time, Sandford

271
00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:14,476
Speaker 5: and Sun like all of this is like, you know,

272
00:14:16,516 --> 00:14:18,716
Speaker 5: it must have been something about that environment I grew

273
00:14:18,796 --> 00:14:21,276
Speaker 5: up in that's drawing me to these questions. So I

274
00:14:21,276 --> 00:14:24,516
Speaker 5: think it developed organically because of the way I was

275
00:14:24,596 --> 00:14:26,156
Speaker 5: raised and where I was raised and just what was

276
00:14:26,196 --> 00:14:27,236
Speaker 5: in the culture at the time.

277
00:14:27,596 --> 00:14:29,676
Speaker 3: So you are a product of black studies.

278
00:14:29,716 --> 00:14:30,316
Speaker 1: Hallelujah.

279
00:14:30,396 --> 00:14:32,796
Speaker 3: See this is what happens. This is what happens white

280
00:14:32,796 --> 00:14:36,676
Speaker 3: folks when you get exposed to black writers, black literature.

281
00:14:36,276 --> 00:14:39,796
Speaker 2: And black whole culture. Yeah, exactly, John, We're going to

282
00:14:39,876 --> 00:14:42,036
Speaker 2: take a quick break and we come back. We're going

283
00:14:42,076 --> 00:14:45,716
Speaker 2: to talk more about Martin Luther King as a complicated,

284
00:14:46,236 --> 00:15:00,956
Speaker 2: actual living person. We are back on Some of my

285
00:15:01,036 --> 00:15:04,636
Speaker 2: best friends are with Jonathan. I. You know, one of

286
00:15:04,676 --> 00:15:07,836
Speaker 2: the things you've dug into all of these new FBI

287
00:15:08,116 --> 00:15:12,476
Speaker 2: wiretaps that have been released, and they tell us something

288
00:15:12,476 --> 00:15:14,356
Speaker 2: that we already knew. We knew that King had lots

289
00:15:14,356 --> 00:15:16,876
Speaker 2: of affairs, but they tell it in much more detail.

290
00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:20,236
Speaker 2: We actually know who the affairs are with. We know

291
00:15:20,676 --> 00:15:23,516
Speaker 2: the actual words that he said when he called these women.

292
00:15:23,916 --> 00:15:25,596
Speaker 2: And I just like, I know, you don't really I know,

293
00:15:25,636 --> 00:15:28,756
Speaker 2: you don't psychoanalyze King in this book, But this has

294
00:15:28,796 --> 00:15:31,996
Speaker 2: been sitting with me and troubling me. And since I've

295
00:15:32,036 --> 00:15:35,236
Speaker 2: read the book, it's like, what was King actually thinking? Like,

296
00:15:35,316 --> 00:15:37,716
Speaker 2: here's a guy who's in charge of this movement, and

297
00:15:37,756 --> 00:15:40,916
Speaker 2: he's so busy and exhausted, and the stakes are so

298
00:15:41,076 --> 00:15:45,436
Speaker 2: damn high, and he's he's undertaking like not like two

299
00:15:45,596 --> 00:15:48,476
Speaker 2: or three affairs, like six and eight at a time.

300
00:15:48,996 --> 00:15:51,956
Speaker 2: And there's like even in the language he's using with

301
00:15:51,996 --> 00:15:56,676
Speaker 2: these women, there's like actual expressions of love of need,

302
00:15:57,396 --> 00:16:00,716
Speaker 2: and I just don't really know, like what's going on?

303
00:16:00,796 --> 00:16:01,916
Speaker 2: How do you make sense of that?

304
00:16:03,156 --> 00:16:05,836
Speaker 4: It's hard, It's really hard. You know.

305
00:16:05,876 --> 00:16:08,596
Speaker 5: We see this with a lot of powerful, famous men,

306
00:16:09,596 --> 00:16:14,036
Speaker 5: this this need for attention, this need for constant gratification.

307
00:16:14,716 --> 00:16:17,956
Speaker 5: And maybe, as Ralph Aberneth he said, it's a stress

308
00:16:17,956 --> 00:16:21,196
Speaker 5: release because he's under such enormous pressure, and yet he

309
00:16:21,316 --> 00:16:24,316
Speaker 5: knows that it's that he's risking everything. He knows that

310
00:16:24,596 --> 00:16:26,156
Speaker 5: any day he could wake up and read this in

311
00:16:26,196 --> 00:16:28,716
Speaker 5: the paper, because he knows the FBI is listening to

312
00:16:28,796 --> 00:16:31,756
Speaker 5: his phone calls and why are tapping his hotel rooms

313
00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:34,836
Speaker 5: and leaking it to the to the press. So the

314
00:16:34,876 --> 00:16:39,716
Speaker 5: strain he's under is just unbelievable, and you constantly ask yourself,

315
00:16:39,756 --> 00:16:42,756
Speaker 5: why doesn't he just stop? Why does he keep subjecting

316
00:16:42,836 --> 00:16:44,996
Speaker 5: himself to this risk? But you know, as Ralph Abernethy

317
00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:47,956
Speaker 5: and others who knew him said, he couldn't it became

318
00:16:47,956 --> 00:16:49,716
Speaker 5: a compulsion. And he did also have a lot of

319
00:16:49,756 --> 00:16:52,956
Speaker 5: mental health issues. You know, he was hospitalized numerous times

320
00:16:52,956 --> 00:16:56,316
Speaker 5: for what he called exhaustion, but you know, others close

321
00:16:56,316 --> 00:16:59,596
Speaker 5: to him called anxiety and depression. So I don't think

322
00:16:59,636 --> 00:17:01,836
Speaker 5: it was a logical rational choice.

323
00:17:02,196 --> 00:17:02,436
Speaker 4: Yeah.

324
00:17:02,476 --> 00:17:04,596
Speaker 3: If King lived in a different time, he would have

325
00:17:04,596 --> 00:17:08,076
Speaker 3: gone to see there's one of those sex addiction specialists

326
00:17:08,076 --> 00:17:10,396
Speaker 3: like Eric eric Ay, the R and B artist. When

327
00:17:10,396 --> 00:17:13,796
Speaker 3: who's cheating on halle Berry, you just go, you know

328
00:17:13,836 --> 00:17:17,316
Speaker 3: and talk to somebody to help work it out. I mean,

329
00:17:18,116 --> 00:17:20,636
Speaker 3: I agree with Ben, we don't learn anything new, But

330
00:17:21,996 --> 00:17:24,716
Speaker 3: not only is it humanizing, but it also you know,

331
00:17:24,916 --> 00:17:26,956
Speaker 3: you can kind of see a struggle in this that

332
00:17:27,356 --> 00:17:32,956
Speaker 3: there is something that feels like he's lost control of

333
00:17:33,036 --> 00:17:36,116
Speaker 3: himself in this way because the risks are great, and

334
00:17:36,556 --> 00:17:40,676
Speaker 3: he's constantly fretting about whether or not the movement can

335
00:17:40,756 --> 00:17:43,396
Speaker 3: succeed based on the choices they make, and here obviously

336
00:17:43,436 --> 00:17:46,556
Speaker 3: his personal ones are part of that risk analysis.

337
00:17:46,596 --> 00:17:48,476
Speaker 2: And John, I want to I want to ask you

338
00:17:48,716 --> 00:17:52,436
Speaker 2: a follow up to that, which is, I'm curious, what

339
00:17:52,676 --> 00:17:56,476
Speaker 2: new did you learn about Koreta Scott King? Like, what

340
00:17:56,476 --> 00:17:59,476
Speaker 2: what's the what's your sort of new insight into her.

341
00:18:00,196 --> 00:18:02,596
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, I think she's a far greater

342
00:18:02,716 --> 00:18:04,876
Speaker 5: hero than than she's been portrayed.

343
00:18:05,476 --> 00:18:05,956
Speaker 2: She was.

344
00:18:07,396 --> 00:18:09,476
Speaker 5: More of an activist than King was when they I

345
00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:11,596
Speaker 5: think that's the main thing that attracted King to her.

346
00:18:11,956 --> 00:18:14,276
Speaker 5: Of course, she was, you know, intelligent and beautiful, but

347
00:18:14,876 --> 00:18:17,876
Speaker 5: she came with a pedigree for activism. She'd been at

348
00:18:17,916 --> 00:18:20,276
Speaker 5: Antioch and involved in all these protests, and King was

349
00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:23,076
Speaker 5: really attracted to that. And then, of course, you know,

350
00:18:23,716 --> 00:18:25,996
Speaker 5: she gets shut down because of the sexism of the

351
00:18:26,036 --> 00:18:27,636
Speaker 5: time and the sexism.

352
00:18:27,116 --> 00:18:27,796
Speaker 4: Of the church.

353
00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:30,476
Speaker 5: She's not allowed to be as activist as she wants

354
00:18:30,516 --> 00:18:33,876
Speaker 5: to be. But she still pushes King all the way.

355
00:18:34,076 --> 00:18:36,036
Speaker 5: When when King wins the Nobel Prize, Coreda is the

356
00:18:36,076 --> 00:18:37,836
Speaker 5: first one that says that we have an even greater

357
00:18:37,916 --> 00:18:41,396
Speaker 5: responsibility now to speak out not just on voting rights

358
00:18:41,396 --> 00:18:45,356
Speaker 5: and integration, but on war and materialism and poverty. It's Kreta, really,

359
00:18:45,676 --> 00:18:48,436
Speaker 5: who's you know, giving them a little nudge every step

360
00:18:48,436 --> 00:18:51,956
Speaker 5: of the way. And yeah, she she certainly knew about

361
00:18:51,956 --> 00:18:57,556
Speaker 5: his extramarital affairs, even though she denied it all of

362
00:18:56,916 --> 00:19:00,876
Speaker 5: her her life. But that to me makes her even

363
00:19:00,996 --> 00:19:03,356
Speaker 5: more heroic. Because the FBI is trying to drive a

364
00:19:03,356 --> 00:19:06,716
Speaker 5: wedge between King and Coreta, and she's just not going

365
00:19:06,756 --> 00:19:07,396
Speaker 5: to let it happen.

366
00:19:07,796 --> 00:19:07,996
Speaker 1: Yeah.

367
00:19:08,036 --> 00:19:10,796
Speaker 3: One of the things that I took from your treatment

368
00:19:10,836 --> 00:19:15,516
Speaker 3: of Caretta and these notes that she kept, is the

369
00:19:15,556 --> 00:19:19,956
Speaker 3: extent to which King himself, who was criticized at the

370
00:19:19,996 --> 00:19:23,076
Speaker 3: time by people in the movement, women in particular like

371
00:19:23,116 --> 00:19:26,036
Speaker 3: Ele Baker, who helped to lead the NAACP and eventually

372
00:19:26,076 --> 00:19:29,476
Speaker 3: the Student Non Violent Coordinating Committee, You basically show that

373
00:19:29,596 --> 00:19:34,996
Speaker 3: King himself was a sexist. He didn't really value the

374
00:19:35,116 --> 00:19:37,596
Speaker 3: voice of women in the movement, including his own wife.

375
00:19:37,716 --> 00:19:40,156
Speaker 5: Yeah, he had a serious blind spot there, as did

376
00:19:40,236 --> 00:19:42,716
Speaker 5: many women. I mean, as did many men of that time,

377
00:19:42,756 --> 00:19:45,236
Speaker 5: and certainly many Southern Baptist preachers.

378
00:19:46,236 --> 00:19:48,196
Speaker 4: People like Ella Baker.

379
00:19:47,916 --> 00:19:49,876
Speaker 5: Called him on it, and his own wife called him

380
00:19:49,916 --> 00:19:53,236
Speaker 5: on it, and he wasn't He just wasn't there yet.

381
00:19:54,116 --> 00:19:56,556
Speaker 2: And John, what evidence is there or is there any

382
00:19:56,596 --> 00:20:01,716
Speaker 2: evidence that the FBI fabricated or distorted what they found

383
00:20:01,756 --> 00:20:04,436
Speaker 2: about King? You know, so they have actual tape. Did

384
00:20:04,436 --> 00:20:05,756
Speaker 2: they make anything up about him?

385
00:20:06,196 --> 00:20:08,716
Speaker 4: Great question? So we have the transcripts of the tapes.

386
00:20:08,756 --> 00:20:11,396
Speaker 5: The tape themselves won't be released until twenty twenty seven,

387
00:20:11,676 --> 00:20:13,756
Speaker 5: although I think some people are trying to suppress that

388
00:20:13,876 --> 00:20:17,876
Speaker 5: from being released then. But the transcripts are accurate, according

389
00:20:17,876 --> 00:20:20,476
Speaker 5: to everybody I spoke to who's on those tapes. Andrew

390
00:20:20,516 --> 00:20:24,756
Speaker 5: Young has read the transcript he's on the recordings, and

391
00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:28,116
Speaker 5: he says that his words are accurately transcribed. Bayard Rustin

392
00:20:28,156 --> 00:20:30,276
Speaker 5: got ahold of his own FBI files and said the

393
00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:33,556
Speaker 5: transcripts were accurate. So I don't think there's much doubt

394
00:20:33,596 --> 00:20:36,836
Speaker 5: when we read transcripts that they're accurate. But the memos

395
00:20:37,036 --> 00:20:39,996
Speaker 5: are that summarize what's being heard in these hotel rooms

396
00:20:40,036 --> 00:20:43,756
Speaker 5: are definitely open to scrutiny, and that, you know, we'll

397
00:20:43,756 --> 00:20:45,716
Speaker 5: just have to see if and when those tapes are

398
00:20:45,756 --> 00:20:48,996
Speaker 5: released in twenty twenty seven, whether the FBI was in

399
00:20:49,036 --> 00:20:52,116
Speaker 5: fact embellishing some of what they heard in the memos.

400
00:20:52,476 --> 00:20:53,756
Speaker 1: Got it, got it well.

401
00:20:53,756 --> 00:20:56,796
Speaker 3: One of the things that the transcripts don't distort it

402
00:20:56,796 --> 00:21:00,836
Speaker 3: in which drive a lot of your new ways in

403
00:21:00,876 --> 00:21:05,236
Speaker 3: which you reveal the complexity, particularly of King's own doubts

404
00:21:05,276 --> 00:21:09,116
Speaker 3: and frustrations, are the conversations he's having with his own

405
00:21:09,156 --> 00:21:11,876
Speaker 3: own team. I mean, you just mentioned Andy Young actually

406
00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:16,796
Speaker 3: reviewing the transcripts for accuracy. So talk to us a

407
00:21:16,836 --> 00:21:20,036
Speaker 3: little bit about what more we learn in terms of

408
00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:23,996
Speaker 3: the internal dialogue between King and his close advisors.

409
00:21:24,156 --> 00:21:27,996
Speaker 5: The FBI transcripts, to me are so important because we

410
00:21:28,036 --> 00:21:30,716
Speaker 5: see how the FBI is trying to weaponize King's behavior

411
00:21:30,716 --> 00:21:33,196
Speaker 5: against himself. That's what's most important about his about the

412
00:21:33,556 --> 00:21:35,956
Speaker 5: tawdry details of his sex life, that our government is

413
00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:38,876
Speaker 5: trying to weaponize it. But the other there's a there's

414
00:21:38,916 --> 00:21:41,276
Speaker 5: a hidden benefit to these transcripts, and that's that we

415
00:21:41,316 --> 00:21:44,156
Speaker 5: get this really intimate view of King on the phone

416
00:21:44,196 --> 00:21:47,476
Speaker 5: with his closest friends and advisors. We hear his doubts,

417
00:21:47,916 --> 00:21:51,036
Speaker 5: we hear his concerns, we hear him suffering as he's

418
00:21:51,036 --> 00:21:53,596
Speaker 5: saying that he feels like he's losing sway with the

419
00:21:53,636 --> 00:21:56,756
Speaker 5: American public, that people aren't listening to him anymore. And

420
00:21:56,796 --> 00:21:59,356
Speaker 5: then his own advisors are urging him, you know, stick

421
00:21:59,396 --> 00:22:01,636
Speaker 5: with where you're good at, stick with where you're most effective,

422
00:22:02,156 --> 00:22:04,676
Speaker 5: focus on voting rights in the South. And King is saying, no,

423
00:22:05,516 --> 00:22:08,916
Speaker 5: don't you understand me. His best friends don't understand that

424
00:22:08,956 --> 00:22:11,316
Speaker 5: this this is about something bigger than voting rits in

425
00:22:11,316 --> 00:22:14,116
Speaker 5: the South. This is about the Bible for him, and

426
00:22:14,116 --> 00:22:16,236
Speaker 5: that he has to speak out about racism in the North.

427
00:22:16,276 --> 00:22:18,876
Speaker 5: He has to speak out about segregation in the northern

428
00:22:18,876 --> 00:22:22,196
Speaker 5: schools and about the war in Vietnam. This is what

429
00:22:22,236 --> 00:22:25,076
Speaker 5: the Bible commands him to do, and his own closest

430
00:22:25,116 --> 00:22:26,996
Speaker 5: advisors don't get it. And you could just hear his

431
00:22:27,596 --> 00:22:31,196
Speaker 5: pain that he's feeling about this. It's really heartbreaking.

432
00:22:31,276 --> 00:22:33,516
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's really fascinating. I had a chance to meet

433
00:22:33,716 --> 00:22:36,596
Speaker 3: Andy Young a few years ago. We actually did a

434
00:22:36,596 --> 00:22:37,596
Speaker 3: panel together.

435
00:22:37,276 --> 00:22:38,756
Speaker 1: And it was a kind of retrospective there.

436
00:22:38,796 --> 00:22:39,236
Speaker 5: I saw it.

437
00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:41,796
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, Ben was in the audience, and it was

438
00:22:41,836 --> 00:22:44,436
Speaker 3: a kind of generational dialogue about like where do we

439
00:22:44,476 --> 00:22:47,716
Speaker 3: go from here. The Charlottesville riot of twenty seventeen with

440
00:22:47,836 --> 00:22:52,396
Speaker 3: the tiki torch mob down in Virginia had just happened

441
00:22:52,396 --> 00:22:55,476
Speaker 3: a day or two before, and I remember talking to

442
00:22:55,516 --> 00:22:59,916
Speaker 3: Andy after the panel discussion and he shared a moment

443
00:22:59,956 --> 00:23:01,196
Speaker 3: that you actually have in the book.

444
00:23:01,236 --> 00:23:02,396
Speaker 1: It almost verbatim.

445
00:23:03,036 --> 00:23:04,636
Speaker 3: It may be that you had not talked to him

446
00:23:04,636 --> 00:23:07,756
Speaker 3: long before that, but he said, you know, King's inner

447
00:23:07,876 --> 00:23:12,756
Speaker 3: circle included James Bevel, who he said, and you right,

448
00:23:12,916 --> 00:23:20,276
Speaker 3: was certifiably insane, and that King himself often wanted this

449
00:23:20,436 --> 00:23:23,476
Speaker 3: kind of team of rivals around him, and that Andy

450
00:23:23,556 --> 00:23:27,116
Speaker 3: Jung was always positioned as the most conservative, the most thoughtful,

451
00:23:27,276 --> 00:23:30,516
Speaker 3: the most you know, deliberative, and these other folks around

452
00:23:30,596 --> 00:23:33,676
Speaker 3: him were like, let's burn this shit down or let's

453
00:23:33,676 --> 00:23:36,156
Speaker 3: do this. You know, he said, you know, people wanted

454
00:23:36,156 --> 00:23:39,316
Speaker 3: to get themselves killed the way they're behaving. And I'd

455
00:23:39,476 --> 00:23:43,116
Speaker 3: love that you are able to capture some of that

456
00:23:43,516 --> 00:23:47,516
Speaker 3: energy and uncertainty because so often these histories of social

457
00:23:47,556 --> 00:23:53,076
Speaker 3: movements are so linear. You know, everything is foreordained, it's

458
00:23:53,116 --> 00:23:56,236
Speaker 3: all looking back, and you really do capture the way

459
00:23:56,276 --> 00:23:58,436
Speaker 3: in which in these moments they really don't know what

460
00:23:58,556 --> 00:24:00,996
Speaker 3: to do, They really are unsure, and they are just

461
00:24:01,036 --> 00:24:02,876
Speaker 3: taking risks and leaps of faith.

462
00:24:02,996 --> 00:24:04,796
Speaker 5: That's one of the things I love about King is

463
00:24:04,796 --> 00:24:06,956
Speaker 5: that he's throwing himself into stuff where he doesn't know

464
00:24:06,956 --> 00:24:09,836
Speaker 5: how it's going to turn out. He goes down to

465
00:24:09,876 --> 00:24:14,636
Speaker 5: Mississippi and marches with Stokely Carmichael after the James Meredith shooting,

466
00:24:14,716 --> 00:24:18,396
Speaker 5: and and and Stokely says, you know, I'm using you right,

467
00:24:18,476 --> 00:24:20,636
Speaker 5: you know, like all this black power stuff sounds a

468
00:24:20,716 --> 00:24:23,396
Speaker 5: lot more fiery when I'm standing next to Martin Luther King,

469
00:24:23,716 --> 00:24:24,796
Speaker 5: and King says, yeah, it's okay.

470
00:24:24,796 --> 00:24:25,636
Speaker 4: I've been used before.

471
00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:30,196
Speaker 5: And you can actually see some of Stokely's philosophy sort

472
00:24:30,196 --> 00:24:33,676
Speaker 5: of creeping into King's speeches. It's beautiful because he's because

473
00:24:33,676 --> 00:24:36,236
Speaker 5: he's really a listener's and he's learning as he goes.

474
00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:37,436
Speaker 4: And that's Martin Luther King.

475
00:24:37,476 --> 00:24:39,116
Speaker 5: You know, you could just he could just be the

476
00:24:39,196 --> 00:24:41,476
Speaker 5: He could just bigfoot everybody if he wanted to, but

477
00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:42,356
Speaker 5: that's not his style.

478
00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:46,796
Speaker 2: Maybe one of the things this is well known, but

479
00:24:46,956 --> 00:24:48,916
Speaker 2: reading the book made me think of it even more

480
00:24:49,436 --> 00:24:53,156
Speaker 2: is that his career is essentially thirteen years. He dies

481
00:24:53,156 --> 00:24:56,356
Speaker 2: at thirty nine. He sort of starts in organizing at

482
00:24:56,356 --> 00:25:00,196
Speaker 2: twenty six, which is such a short amount of time.

483
00:25:00,476 --> 00:25:04,916
Speaker 2: And maybe what you're describing there is not a middle

484
00:25:04,956 --> 00:25:07,356
Speaker 2: aged person or an older person who's stuck in their ways,

485
00:25:07,956 --> 00:25:09,676
Speaker 2: You know that we don't. We like to think of King,

486
00:25:09,756 --> 00:25:13,076
Speaker 2: because of his whole aura, as somebody who's older. But

487
00:25:13,156 --> 00:25:15,796
Speaker 2: he's he's young still and he's still like it sounds

488
00:25:15,796 --> 00:25:17,356
Speaker 2: like he's still learning all the time.

489
00:25:18,436 --> 00:25:19,476
Speaker 4: No question about that.

490
00:25:20,076 --> 00:25:21,596
Speaker 5: You know, he wanted to be a college professor, he

491
00:25:21,596 --> 00:25:23,556
Speaker 5: wanted to maybe be a president, of university. He wanted

492
00:25:23,596 --> 00:25:26,316
Speaker 5: to be like Benjamin Mays at Morehouse, given you know,

493
00:25:26,396 --> 00:25:30,116
Speaker 5: inspirational lectures to the student body. I think he was

494
00:25:30,156 --> 00:25:32,636
Speaker 5: always into learning, and he got thrust into this position

495
00:25:32,676 --> 00:25:35,516
Speaker 5: of leadership, but it was not his first choice, and

496
00:25:35,556 --> 00:25:38,876
Speaker 5: in some ways he wasn't really suited for it personality wise.

497
00:25:38,916 --> 00:25:40,836
Speaker 5: He didn't ever really feel like the need to be

498
00:25:40,916 --> 00:25:43,076
Speaker 5: the center of attention. That was just not his not

499
00:25:43,116 --> 00:25:43,676
Speaker 5: his vibe.

500
00:25:44,036 --> 00:25:46,036
Speaker 1: A man named King did not want to be King.

501
00:25:46,436 --> 00:25:48,876
Speaker 5: Yeah, and our greatest protest leader hated conflict.

502
00:25:50,156 --> 00:25:53,596
Speaker 2: So a last question about the FBI tapes. So much

503
00:25:53,636 --> 00:25:55,716
Speaker 2: of what you just said, like we understand King through

504
00:25:55,796 --> 00:25:59,476
Speaker 2: these tapes, and so I want to know how should

505
00:25:59,476 --> 00:26:02,556
Speaker 2: we how we should understand the FBI, Like what is

506
00:26:02,836 --> 00:26:06,436
Speaker 2: what's our government's role in the history of the civil

507
00:26:06,516 --> 00:26:11,556
Speaker 2: rights movement in undermining the pursuit for equality.

508
00:26:11,956 --> 00:26:14,036
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's one of the most shameful chapters in our

509
00:26:14,076 --> 00:26:17,756
Speaker 5: country's history that you know, we take this guy who

510
00:26:18,036 --> 00:26:20,876
Speaker 5: I think should be on Mount Rushmore, one of the

511
00:26:20,916 --> 00:26:25,196
Speaker 5: greatest heroes of American history, whose main mission is to

512
00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:28,876
Speaker 5: try to make this a greater democracy, to live up

513
00:26:28,916 --> 00:26:32,316
Speaker 5: to the words in the Constitution and our government can't

514
00:26:32,516 --> 00:26:35,076
Speaker 5: can't handle that and attacks him and really tries to

515
00:26:35,116 --> 00:26:37,516
Speaker 5: destroy him. A lot of it is based on racism.

516
00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:40,676
Speaker 5: Hoover was absolutely racist, but a lot of it is

517
00:26:40,796 --> 00:26:45,116
Speaker 5: just also based on his seeing his job and not

518
00:26:45,196 --> 00:26:48,196
Speaker 5: just him, but all of the power structure seeing their

519
00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:52,716
Speaker 5: job is maintaining the status quo that we're in power,

520
00:26:52,916 --> 00:26:55,116
Speaker 5: we want to stay in power, and sharing it with

521
00:26:55,356 --> 00:26:58,716
Speaker 5: Black Americans is not really in our not to our benefit.

522
00:26:59,436 --> 00:27:01,996
Speaker 2: And j Edgar Hoover, you said Hoover, j ed Gar

523
00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:06,276
Speaker 2: Hoover is the head of the FBI who just went

524
00:27:06,316 --> 00:27:07,556
Speaker 2: after King relentlessly.

525
00:27:08,036 --> 00:27:11,476
Speaker 5: Yeah, he's the he's the main guy. But we shouldn't

526
00:27:11,516 --> 00:27:16,276
Speaker 5: just blame it on him because LBJ was complicit. The

527
00:27:16,316 --> 00:27:20,676
Speaker 5: Kennedys authorized the wiretaps, members of Congress knew about the surveillance,

528
00:27:20,676 --> 00:27:23,156
Speaker 5: did nothing about it. The white media didn'tknew about the surveillance,

529
00:27:23,156 --> 00:27:25,636
Speaker 5: did nothing about it. So Jane Hoover is a big

530
00:27:25,676 --> 00:27:27,316
Speaker 5: part of the problem, but not the whole problem.

531
00:27:27,396 --> 00:27:30,596
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I just want to echo because I think

532
00:27:30,716 --> 00:27:33,956
Speaker 3: as a historian, as someone who writes about this period,

533
00:27:33,956 --> 00:27:39,716
Speaker 3: who teaches this period, we as Americans do not fully

534
00:27:39,756 --> 00:27:46,516
Speaker 3: appreciate how central our own federal government was in destroying

535
00:27:46,556 --> 00:27:50,116
Speaker 3: the promise of the Civil rights era and the black

536
00:27:50,156 --> 00:27:54,356
Speaker 3: freedom movement more generally, like that, that is that just

537
00:27:54,396 --> 00:27:57,756
Speaker 3: has to be said again and again and again, because

538
00:27:57,796 --> 00:28:01,156
Speaker 3: the extent to which we always think about the white

539
00:28:01,196 --> 00:28:03,916
Speaker 3: supremacists of the South and the KKK, or we think

540
00:28:03,956 --> 00:28:09,076
Speaker 3: about white moderates in there weak response to the possibility

541
00:28:09,196 --> 00:28:11,316
Speaker 3: that unfold around them, which we're going to talk about,

542
00:28:12,636 --> 00:28:17,036
Speaker 3: we still have to take ownership of the efforts of

543
00:28:17,076 --> 00:28:21,916
Speaker 3: the most powerful law enforcement agency working against change.

544
00:28:21,996 --> 00:28:22,876
Speaker 4: I couldn't agree more.

545
00:28:23,036 --> 00:28:24,436
Speaker 5: And there was a moment in this book where I

546
00:28:24,476 --> 00:28:27,836
Speaker 5: really got my blood started to boil. You know, I

547
00:28:27,956 --> 00:28:31,076
Speaker 5: writing the scene of the march on Washington, and it's

548
00:28:31,116 --> 00:28:33,716
Speaker 5: one of the most beautiful moments in American history. Literally

549
00:28:34,676 --> 00:28:37,236
Speaker 5: feels like we're at a turning point, that America might.

550
00:28:37,116 --> 00:28:39,956
Speaker 4: Be ready to change. And you know, you've.

551
00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:43,196
Speaker 5: Got nationally televised millions and millions of people watching as

552
00:28:43,196 --> 00:28:46,476
Speaker 5: black and white people are literally singing in harmony, holding hands.

553
00:28:46,796 --> 00:28:49,196
Speaker 5: And then the next day the FBI isshes this memo

554
00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:51,436
Speaker 5: saying King must be considered the most dangerous man in

555
00:28:51,476 --> 00:28:57,516
Speaker 5: America because he threatens status quo and That's just such

556
00:28:57,516 --> 00:28:59,676
Speaker 5: a sad moment in American history because we had a

557
00:28:59,756 --> 00:29:02,236
Speaker 5: chance to Really it felt like we had a chance,

558
00:29:02,276 --> 00:29:03,676
Speaker 5: and the people who were there that day and even

559
00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:06,636
Speaker 5: people watching it on TV felt like this could be

560
00:29:06,676 --> 00:29:09,676
Speaker 5: the moment that we change, that we leave our are

561
00:29:09,716 --> 00:29:13,556
Speaker 5: passed behind, and the FBI say no, no, We're not

562
00:29:13,556 --> 00:29:14,276
Speaker 5: gonna do that.

563
00:29:14,516 --> 00:29:18,796
Speaker 3: Come on, that is a disturbing and also appropriate moment.

564
00:29:18,876 --> 00:29:19,916
Speaker 1: To take a break.

565
00:29:20,276 --> 00:29:23,316
Speaker 3: We are going to talk about what comes after the

566
00:29:23,516 --> 00:29:25,836
Speaker 3: I have a dream speech, what comes after the civil

567
00:29:25,916 --> 00:29:28,556
Speaker 3: rights achievements of nineteen sixty four and sixty five.

568
00:29:29,076 --> 00:29:30,756
Speaker 1: When we get back from a short.

569
00:29:30,556 --> 00:29:46,116
Speaker 2: Break, All right, John, I want to talk about King's

570
00:29:46,716 --> 00:29:51,356
Speaker 2: popularity or lack of it, So you righte that, like

571
00:29:51,436 --> 00:29:55,716
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty three, babies all over the country are

572
00:29:55,716 --> 00:30:00,876
Speaker 2: being named Martin, and by nineteen sixty six there aren't

573
00:30:00,916 --> 00:30:03,916
Speaker 2: that many babies being named Martin. You also tell us

574
00:30:03,956 --> 00:30:06,996
Speaker 2: that in nineteen sixty four there's this list of the

575
00:30:06,996 --> 00:30:10,356
Speaker 2: most admired men in the entire WORL world and he's

576
00:30:10,436 --> 00:30:12,396
Speaker 2: right up there on the top of it. And then

577
00:30:12,436 --> 00:30:16,236
Speaker 2: by nineteen sixty six is a survey and sixty three

578
00:30:16,316 --> 00:30:19,916
Speaker 2: percent of those who were interviewed have a negative view

579
00:30:19,916 --> 00:30:25,756
Speaker 2: of King. What happened? Why did he become so unpopular.

580
00:30:26,516 --> 00:30:27,356
Speaker 1: And so quickly?

581
00:30:27,636 --> 00:30:28,236
Speaker 4: So quickly?

582
00:30:28,316 --> 00:30:33,436
Speaker 5: For sure, he decided that he was going to say

583
00:30:33,436 --> 00:30:35,996
Speaker 5: what he believed, and that was not a good move.

584
00:30:36,396 --> 00:30:38,196
Speaker 5: You know, he was popular as long as he was

585
00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:41,836
Speaker 5: criticizing Bull Connor in Birmingham. He was popular as long

586
00:30:41,876 --> 00:30:44,196
Speaker 5: as he was talking about voting rights for people in Mississippi,

587
00:30:44,196 --> 00:30:47,236
Speaker 5: because northern liberals could get behind that. But when he

588
00:30:47,276 --> 00:30:50,436
Speaker 5: starts saying, you know, you northern liberals got a problem too.

589
00:30:50,556 --> 00:30:54,356
Speaker 5: You're fleeing the cities for the safe white enclaves of

590
00:30:54,396 --> 00:30:57,276
Speaker 5: the suburbs, and your schools are just as segregated as

591
00:30:57,316 --> 00:31:01,156
Speaker 5: the schools in Birmingham, Alabama. And when he begins speaking

592
00:31:01,156 --> 00:31:03,636
Speaker 5: out against the Vietnam War, which was still relatively popular

593
00:31:03,676 --> 00:31:06,716
Speaker 5: at the time, all these white Americans in the North

594
00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:09,636
Speaker 5: in particular, are saying, wait a second, we thought you know,

595
00:31:09,836 --> 00:31:11,516
Speaker 5: you were talking about those those.

596
00:31:11,356 --> 00:31:16,236
Speaker 4: Other racists of sticking white people right, stay.

597
00:31:15,996 --> 00:31:20,636
Speaker 5: In your lane. And even King's advisors are saying to him,

598
00:31:20,836 --> 00:31:22,796
Speaker 5: you know, we might be more effective if we just

599
00:31:22,836 --> 00:31:27,516
Speaker 5: focused on the South. And people can't understand even though

600
00:31:27,756 --> 00:31:30,396
Speaker 5: you know the reason King becomes successful in the first

601
00:31:30,396 --> 00:31:35,036
Speaker 5: place is because he's preaching this very mainstream view really

602
00:31:35,076 --> 00:31:36,636
Speaker 5: in a way like, I just want us to live

603
00:31:36,676 --> 00:31:38,836
Speaker 5: up to the democracy, to the promises of democracy and

604
00:31:38,876 --> 00:31:39,476
Speaker 5: the Constitution.

605
00:31:39,836 --> 00:31:41,196
Speaker 4: I just want us to live up to the words

606
00:31:41,196 --> 00:31:43,876
Speaker 4: in the Bible. We can all agree on that, right.

607
00:31:44,636 --> 00:31:47,596
Speaker 5: But when he when he starts getting specific and pushing

608
00:31:47,596 --> 00:31:51,396
Speaker 5: it beyond the Deep South, suddenly people be it, get

609
00:31:51,476 --> 00:31:52,276
Speaker 5: uncomfortable with that.

610
00:31:52,636 --> 00:31:55,076
Speaker 2: Yeah, and listen, So, John, you and I are in Chicago,

611
00:31:55,156 --> 00:31:57,876
Speaker 2: and you talked about him. Him bringing this message up north.

612
00:31:58,276 --> 00:32:01,796
Speaker 2: Chicago is one of his main destinations. So in nineteen

613
00:32:01,836 --> 00:32:06,276
Speaker 2: sixty three there's this amazing school boycott in Chicago to

614
00:32:06,436 --> 00:32:11,516
Speaker 2: protest segregation. Two hundred thousand and students leave public schools

615
00:32:11,516 --> 00:32:14,916
Speaker 2: in Chicago to say, we can't have segregated schools any longer.

616
00:32:15,156 --> 00:32:18,596
Speaker 2: We can't be taught in these like you know, buses

617
00:32:18,636 --> 00:32:24,076
Speaker 2: that are outside the schools, mobile mobile trailers. And King

618
00:32:24,156 --> 00:32:26,436
Speaker 2: comes up and lends his support to that, and then

619
00:32:26,436 --> 00:32:28,836
Speaker 2: he comes back up to Chicago and actually moves here

620
00:32:28,836 --> 00:32:32,436
Speaker 2: with Correta to the West side of Chicago to highlight

621
00:32:32,516 --> 00:32:37,276
Speaker 2: to protest housing issues here. He wants open housing nineteen

622
00:32:37,276 --> 00:32:39,836
Speaker 2: sixty is open housing that you know, Chicago has such

623
00:32:39,956 --> 00:32:43,316
Speaker 2: is in many ways the most segregated city in the country.

624
00:32:43,716 --> 00:32:46,236
Speaker 2: And you know that there are all these restrictions on

625
00:32:46,236 --> 00:32:49,116
Speaker 2: where black people could live. They're not actually allowed to

626
00:32:49,276 --> 00:32:53,876
Speaker 2: enjoy the open market of housing. Yeah, and he talks

627
00:32:53,876 --> 00:32:56,956
Speaker 2: about finding racists here that are you know, would make

628
00:32:57,156 --> 00:33:00,436
Speaker 2: people in Mississippi blush. Yeah. I mean even throw that

629
00:33:00,476 --> 00:33:02,916
Speaker 2: to you, Khalil, because you know, what did you think

630
00:33:02,916 --> 00:33:05,956
Speaker 2: of those moments? And you know when the story returns

631
00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:06,596
Speaker 2: to Chicago.

632
00:33:07,196 --> 00:33:13,116
Speaker 3: Well, I've often had to disabuse young people, particularly my students,

633
00:33:13,276 --> 00:33:18,316
Speaker 3: of this idea that we historians called Southern exceptionalism, because

634
00:33:18,516 --> 00:33:23,636
Speaker 3: it is such a deeply conventional notion that the racism

635
00:33:23,956 --> 00:33:29,516
Speaker 3: of yesterday was a Southern problem and that the issues

636
00:33:29,556 --> 00:33:32,916
Speaker 3: in the North were really about ungrateful black people in

637
00:33:32,956 --> 00:33:38,276
Speaker 3: their dysfunctional homes with fathers missing, who become welfare dependents

638
00:33:38,716 --> 00:33:42,276
Speaker 3: and turn to pathology and gangs and all of this.

639
00:33:42,876 --> 00:33:45,996
Speaker 3: In other words, racism has been written out of most

640
00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:50,716
Speaker 3: textbooks that teach this period of US history, and so

641
00:33:51,236 --> 00:33:54,196
Speaker 3: I actually do think of it as a backlash moment

642
00:33:54,636 --> 00:33:58,396
Speaker 3: because white liberals and moderates do have to confront doctor

643
00:33:58,516 --> 00:34:03,196
Speaker 3: King's moral authority on their own ground, and they show

644
00:34:03,276 --> 00:34:08,756
Speaker 3: their fucking asses big time, like you know, in a

645
00:34:08,796 --> 00:34:11,836
Speaker 3: way that is very powerful even to this day, to

646
00:34:11,996 --> 00:34:18,316
Speaker 3: see the venomous Confederate flag waving rage that we see

647
00:34:18,396 --> 00:34:22,956
Speaker 3: in video archival footage of the protest Engage Park, for example, Jonathan,

648
00:34:22,956 --> 00:34:24,156
Speaker 3: which which you've written about.

649
00:34:24,316 --> 00:34:26,196
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you know, it's interesting what you're saying to

650
00:34:26,276 --> 00:34:29,356
Speaker 5: Khlill is really powerful because we see the people throwing

651
00:34:29,436 --> 00:34:32,276
Speaker 5: rocks and bricks at King Engage Park and that's famous.

652
00:34:32,276 --> 00:34:36,156
Speaker 5: And King leaves here saying these these white people waving

653
00:34:36,196 --> 00:34:38,956
Speaker 5: the Nazi flags could teach people in Birmingham about racism.

654
00:34:39,476 --> 00:34:41,676
Speaker 5: But the piece that we don't see and we don't

655
00:34:41,676 --> 00:34:43,356
Speaker 5: talk about as much is the fact that King was

656
00:34:43,396 --> 00:34:46,356
Speaker 5: getting all of the support from the northern suburbs, from

657
00:34:46,396 --> 00:34:50,916
Speaker 5: the white supporters around on the periphery of Chicago and

658
00:34:51,196 --> 00:34:53,916
Speaker 5: being invited to speak at churches and synagogues up there.

659
00:34:53,996 --> 00:34:57,996
Speaker 5: But those folks weren't marching with them Engage Park. You know,

660
00:34:58,036 --> 00:35:01,596
Speaker 5: they were comfortable sending their support their checks in the mail.

661
00:35:02,076 --> 00:35:04,556
Speaker 5: But when he moved to Chicago, he did not find

662
00:35:04,596 --> 00:35:06,596
Speaker 5: the groundswell of support that he was looking for, and

663
00:35:06,636 --> 00:35:08,956
Speaker 5: he also found divisions in the black community too. He

664
00:35:09,236 --> 00:35:12,556
Speaker 5: wasn't able to rally the kind of backing here that

665
00:35:12,596 --> 00:35:16,516
Speaker 5: he that he needed, in part because so many people

666
00:35:16,516 --> 00:35:19,476
Speaker 5: here in the city were dependent on mayor daily for

667
00:35:19,516 --> 00:35:22,876
Speaker 5: their jobs, and church leaders were divided to not all

668
00:35:22,956 --> 00:35:25,076
Speaker 5: of the black churches got behind King in the way

669
00:35:25,116 --> 00:35:28,476
Speaker 5: he had hoped. So it was he found and you know,

670
00:35:28,516 --> 00:35:31,156
Speaker 5: his advisors warned him, Chicago's a lot more complicated. The

671
00:35:31,196 --> 00:35:33,756
Speaker 5: moral issues aren't as black and white, no pun intended.

672
00:35:34,676 --> 00:35:35,276
Speaker 4: It's going to be.

673
00:35:35,196 --> 00:35:38,356
Speaker 5: Harder to really focus the media on your message here

674
00:35:38,396 --> 00:35:41,916
Speaker 5: because it's more nuanced. And all that played against him.

675
00:35:42,036 --> 00:35:44,956
Speaker 5: But that having been said, you know, King really pushed

676
00:35:44,956 --> 00:35:49,316
Speaker 5: for specific reforms. He got the city to agree to make,

677
00:35:49,596 --> 00:35:53,956
Speaker 5: you know, important changes in laws and policies, and then

678
00:35:54,036 --> 00:35:54,956
Speaker 5: once he left town.

679
00:35:54,916 --> 00:35:57,556
Speaker 4: The city just abandoned all that said. Yeah, don't let

680
00:35:57,556 --> 00:35:58,596
Speaker 4: the door hit you on the way out.

681
00:35:59,076 --> 00:36:02,036
Speaker 2: You have a line and of what King sort of

682
00:36:02,076 --> 00:36:05,276
Speaker 2: has this revelation about white people after coming north and

683
00:36:05,316 --> 00:36:08,876
Speaker 2: he says they're all unconscious racists.

684
00:36:09,556 --> 00:36:11,836
Speaker 4: Yeah that hit heard, Yeah yeah.

685
00:36:11,916 --> 00:36:15,276
Speaker 3: And also the kind of language that today is had

686
00:36:15,276 --> 00:36:18,516
Speaker 3: been completely removed from any notion of what King actually

687
00:36:18,516 --> 00:36:21,476
Speaker 3: stood for. You also tell the story of Mike Wallace

688
00:36:21,596 --> 00:36:24,236
Speaker 3: telling a CBS audience in the summer of nineteen sixty

689
00:36:24,276 --> 00:36:27,716
Speaker 3: six that white people were fed up with racial turmoil,

690
00:36:28,396 --> 00:36:33,316
Speaker 3: which is, like, you know, the perfect both honest expression

691
00:36:33,636 --> 00:36:36,716
Speaker 3: of what is actually happening and also an echo of

692
00:36:36,756 --> 00:36:40,196
Speaker 3: the Reconstruction period, when white people were fed up with

693
00:36:40,236 --> 00:36:44,356
Speaker 3: the racial turmoil of white Southern Democrats deciding that they

694
00:36:44,356 --> 00:36:46,516
Speaker 3: were going to take back control of the South, and

695
00:36:46,556 --> 00:36:49,756
Speaker 3: the federal government deciding, you know what, the costs are

696
00:36:49,756 --> 00:36:52,636
Speaker 3: too great, We're done with this, We're out, and so

697
00:36:52,836 --> 00:36:55,316
Speaker 3: there we are. But King doesn't help himself, right, he

698
00:36:55,356 --> 00:36:59,076
Speaker 3: doesn't help himself because with all of that, he adds

699
00:36:59,156 --> 00:37:04,796
Speaker 3: insult to injury by saying this war in Vietnam is

700
00:37:04,876 --> 00:37:10,836
Speaker 3: a moral abomination and unmitigatingly calls publicly calls for an

701
00:37:10,916 --> 00:37:14,556
Speaker 3: end to the US involvement, and holds LBJ to task

702
00:37:15,036 --> 00:37:16,676
Speaker 3: for escalating the war.

703
00:37:17,596 --> 00:37:19,676
Speaker 5: And what I love about that is that he's saying

704
00:37:19,716 --> 00:37:22,396
Speaker 5: that the war is not just about you know, losing lives.

705
00:37:22,396 --> 00:37:24,636
Speaker 5: It's not just about the fact that we're killing our

706
00:37:24,716 --> 00:37:27,716
Speaker 5: brothers in Vietnam. That we're all children of God, He's

707
00:37:27,716 --> 00:37:30,796
Speaker 5: saying that war has another consequence, that it leads to

708
00:37:31,076 --> 00:37:35,396
Speaker 5: immortal rot in society, that it undermines all of the

709
00:37:35,436 --> 00:37:38,316
Speaker 5: goodness that we're trying to teach. That you can't teach war,

710
00:37:38,396 --> 00:37:42,436
Speaker 5: you can't advocate for war and still say that we

711
00:37:42,476 --> 00:37:45,716
Speaker 5: are that we are committed to love and kindness and peace.

712
00:37:46,116 --> 00:37:47,196
Speaker 4: He's seeing the big.

713
00:37:46,996 --> 00:37:51,316
Speaker 5: Picture and in a way that you know, very few

714
00:37:51,596 --> 00:37:54,316
Speaker 5: leaders are brave enough to call out.

715
00:37:54,596 --> 00:37:57,516
Speaker 2: Yeah, Okay, John, maybe you're already answering this question that

716
00:37:57,556 --> 00:37:59,476
Speaker 2: I'm about to ask, but it's something I thought about

717
00:37:59,516 --> 00:38:04,796
Speaker 2: reading the book, is whether it actually was a strategic

718
00:38:04,876 --> 00:38:08,796
Speaker 2: mistake on his part to bring the Vietnam War also

719
00:38:08,876 --> 00:38:12,076
Speaker 2: in to these major issues that he's trying to tackle,

720
00:38:12,316 --> 00:38:15,356
Speaker 2: and King's own leadership is saying like this is a mistake.

721
00:38:15,956 --> 00:38:17,076
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question.

722
00:38:18,516 --> 00:38:20,756
Speaker 5: And people are a lot smarter than I am, you know,

723
00:38:20,916 --> 00:38:25,276
Speaker 5: like fired Russ and we're saying exactly what you're saying,

724
00:38:25,316 --> 00:38:28,276
Speaker 5: that you're you're wasting your energy, that you're never going

725
00:38:28,276 --> 00:38:30,716
Speaker 5: to accomplish all of these things that you're talking about.

726
00:38:30,996 --> 00:38:33,956
Speaker 5: If you just focus on where your strongest, we can

727
00:38:34,036 --> 00:38:36,236
Speaker 5: change the country. If we change if we get enough

728
00:38:36,236 --> 00:38:38,516
Speaker 5: people registered to vote in the South. We change the

729
00:38:38,556 --> 00:38:42,596
Speaker 5: balance of power in every state legislature, we change the

730
00:38:42,636 --> 00:38:45,516
Speaker 5: balance of power in Congress. We tip presidential elections, we

731
00:38:46,076 --> 00:38:48,236
Speaker 5: start to see more black people being elected to office.

732
00:38:49,196 --> 00:38:51,756
Speaker 5: All of that will will help us in the long run,

733
00:38:51,796 --> 00:38:55,876
Speaker 5: and then you can start talking about you know, demilitarization

734
00:38:56,036 --> 00:38:59,756
Speaker 5: and attacking materialism. But like lay the groundwork. That's how

735
00:38:59,916 --> 00:39:02,916
Speaker 5: fired rust In, a brilliant strategist saw things. But King

736
00:39:03,076 --> 00:39:06,196
Speaker 5: just couldn't do it. Like he said, you know, he

737
00:39:06,236 --> 00:39:09,196
Speaker 5: wasn't a politician. He wasn't Machiavelli, and he wasn't thinking

738
00:39:09,236 --> 00:39:10,996
Speaker 5: about what made the most sense. He was thinking about

739
00:39:10,996 --> 00:39:12,236
Speaker 5: what was the right thing to do. He was a

740
00:39:12,676 --> 00:39:15,596
Speaker 5: you know, he was a minister primarily fundamentally.

741
00:39:15,956 --> 00:39:17,756
Speaker 1: Yeah.

742
00:39:18,036 --> 00:39:21,596
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, I I'm fascinated by this issue too, and

743
00:39:21,636 --> 00:39:25,476
Speaker 3: I don't think it's it's clear like in terms of

744
00:39:25,476 --> 00:39:28,036
Speaker 3: political strategy. But what I have to say for me

745
00:39:28,196 --> 00:39:31,996
Speaker 3: personally that I admire so much about doctor King is

746
00:39:32,076 --> 00:39:34,916
Speaker 3: what you just said, John, that he wasn't a politician.

747
00:39:35,596 --> 00:39:40,436
Speaker 3: And when he tells the country that he's not going

748
00:39:40,476 --> 00:39:46,636
Speaker 3: to support lbj reelection bid, it really strikes me as

749
00:39:46,836 --> 00:39:50,596
Speaker 3: a moment when we saw kind of the last time

750
00:39:51,236 --> 00:39:55,396
Speaker 3: that black leadership, organic black leadership, social media leadership was

751
00:39:55,436 --> 00:39:59,396
Speaker 3: not captured by the Democratic Party that King maintained as

752
00:39:59,436 --> 00:40:02,876
Speaker 3: independence in such a way that you cannot find today.

753
00:40:03,436 --> 00:40:06,596
Speaker 3: You have people who are civil rights leaders, who are

754
00:40:06,876 --> 00:40:11,316
Speaker 3: who are essentially an extension of the Democratic Party, and

755
00:40:11,636 --> 00:40:14,756
Speaker 3: I would say, for me, it has hurt us. And

756
00:40:14,796 --> 00:40:18,516
Speaker 3: so one lesson coming out of this is that King's independence,

757
00:40:18,756 --> 00:40:22,796
Speaker 3: even in the critique of Bayad Rustin, gets lost in

758
00:40:22,916 --> 00:40:26,436
Speaker 3: what for that generation was a brass ring which was

759
00:40:26,516 --> 00:40:30,276
Speaker 3: to participate in electoral politics, but it was also a

760
00:40:30,356 --> 00:40:34,036
Speaker 3: devil's bargain because once you started participating, then you had

761
00:40:34,276 --> 00:40:37,396
Speaker 3: debts to be paid, you had loyalties to protect, and

762
00:40:37,556 --> 00:40:40,396
Speaker 3: I think that the independence of social movements have been

763
00:40:40,436 --> 00:40:41,636
Speaker 3: lost in that translation.

764
00:40:41,716 --> 00:40:43,836
Speaker 5: That's a really interesting point. And when you think about

765
00:40:43,836 --> 00:40:45,916
Speaker 5: what King was trying to do when he was assassinated

766
00:40:46,076 --> 00:40:49,556
Speaker 5: was to pull together all of these factions in the

767
00:40:49,556 --> 00:40:53,196
Speaker 5: Poor People's Campaign and to basically occupy Washington and force

768
00:40:53,236 --> 00:40:55,956
Speaker 5: the nation to pay attention to all of the injustices.

769
00:40:56,356 --> 00:40:59,516
Speaker 5: I mean, it's incredibly audacious and maybe by Ourdrustin would

770
00:40:59,556 --> 00:41:02,236
Speaker 5: have said it was naive, but he was trying to

771
00:41:02,276 --> 00:41:03,636
Speaker 5: find a way to do it. He wasn't just talking

772
00:41:03,636 --> 00:41:05,236
Speaker 5: about it. He wasn't just writing op eds or.

773
00:41:05,236 --> 00:41:05,836
Speaker 4: Going on TV.

774
00:41:06,276 --> 00:41:09,036
Speaker 5: He was trying to build a new coalition.

775
00:41:09,716 --> 00:41:13,956
Speaker 3: I love that term occupy, occupy Washington, DC, because that's

776
00:41:13,996 --> 00:41:19,396
Speaker 3: exactly what it feels like looking back on the promise

777
00:41:19,476 --> 00:41:21,956
Speaker 3: of it. But let's talk just for a second about

778
00:41:22,116 --> 00:41:26,116
Speaker 3: the enduring relevance of King. I mean, doctor King today

779
00:41:26,236 --> 00:41:29,196
Speaker 3: is a symbol of American exceptionalism, and it seems to me,

780
00:41:29,316 --> 00:41:31,716
Speaker 3: I mean, just certainly from my reading of your biography

781
00:41:31,876 --> 00:41:33,756
Speaker 3: and the teaching that I do in the classroom that

782
00:41:34,356 --> 00:41:36,636
Speaker 3: I mean, this guy is as relevant today and death

783
00:41:36,676 --> 00:41:38,396
Speaker 3: as he was when he was alive. I mean, was

784
00:41:38,396 --> 00:41:42,276
Speaker 3: that a motivating factor even several years ago, not counting

785
00:41:42,396 --> 00:41:47,236
Speaker 3: the madness of anti CRT and the misappropriation of King's content,

786
00:41:47,276 --> 00:41:49,156
Speaker 3: of our character stuff that goes on now. I mean,

787
00:41:49,196 --> 00:41:51,996
Speaker 3: how were you thinking about King's legacy when you first

788
00:41:51,996 --> 00:41:53,116
Speaker 3: set out to do this biograph.

789
00:41:53,156 --> 00:41:56,236
Speaker 5: I started this book I think even before yeah, before

790
00:41:56,276 --> 00:42:00,076
Speaker 5: Trump was elected. So, but there was so much in

791
00:42:00,116 --> 00:42:03,876
Speaker 5: the air at the time that was was relevant. Obviously,

792
00:42:04,236 --> 00:42:06,356
Speaker 5: because so much of what King had to say is

793
00:42:06,396 --> 00:42:08,636
Speaker 5: still you know, ringing in our ears. You know, he

794
00:42:08,716 --> 00:42:15,756
Speaker 5: called out not just racism, but income inequality and and incarceration,

795
00:42:15,876 --> 00:42:19,676
Speaker 5: and he talked about reparations, he talked about police brutality.

796
00:42:19,956 --> 00:42:21,596
Speaker 5: You know, the issues are still so alive. And at

797
00:42:21,596 --> 00:42:24,876
Speaker 5: the same time, I felt like, where's King now? We're

798
00:42:24,876 --> 00:42:27,556
Speaker 5: not teaching his works, We're not you know, kids aren't

799
00:42:27,596 --> 00:42:30,316
Speaker 5: reading him. I wasn't reading him in college. We've turned

800
00:42:30,356 --> 00:42:35,076
Speaker 5: him into this really safe, watered down figure, and his

801
00:42:35,116 --> 00:42:36,876
Speaker 5: life and his words don't bear that out. So I

802
00:42:36,916 --> 00:42:39,516
Speaker 5: just felt like, especially when I was meeting people who

803
00:42:39,596 --> 00:42:42,556
Speaker 5: knew King during my ALI work, I felt like we

804
00:42:42,596 --> 00:42:44,316
Speaker 5: needed to hear his voice again. We needed a more

805
00:42:44,356 --> 00:42:47,836
Speaker 5: intimate portrait of King. That was really what got me started.

806
00:42:48,996 --> 00:42:52,436
Speaker 3: So you just mentioned reparations and the Poor People's Campaign

807
00:42:52,596 --> 00:42:55,676
Speaker 3: and the possibility that it held, you know, at the

808
00:42:55,716 --> 00:42:58,636
Speaker 3: height of the apotheosis of King and his vision for

809
00:42:58,676 --> 00:43:01,076
Speaker 3: the future of America. So what are some of the

810
00:43:01,156 --> 00:43:05,156
Speaker 3: lessons that we should take from King's own commitment to

811
00:43:05,596 --> 00:43:09,476
Speaker 3: this bold, challenging vision of a multi racial demid percy

812
00:43:09,676 --> 00:43:11,156
Speaker 3: that was more egalitarian.

813
00:43:11,676 --> 00:43:14,116
Speaker 5: I don't know where to start on that one, Khalil,

814
00:43:14,196 --> 00:43:18,276
Speaker 5: but I think the main message is that it's okay

815
00:43:18,276 --> 00:43:20,676
Speaker 5: to be idealistic, it's okay to and it's in it's

816
00:43:20,716 --> 00:43:23,916
Speaker 5: necessary to fight for what you truly believe in. And

817
00:43:24,876 --> 00:43:27,556
Speaker 5: yes there's there's time and a place for compromise, but

818
00:43:28,556 --> 00:43:31,036
Speaker 5: not everybody has to be a compromiser. I think King

819
00:43:31,196 --> 00:43:33,276
Speaker 5: was pushing us to really fight for what we believed in,

820
00:43:33,316 --> 00:43:35,756
Speaker 5: and in some ways the man who best recognized that

821
00:43:35,876 --> 00:43:38,556
Speaker 5: was j Edgar Hoover. He truly recognized the threat that

822
00:43:38,556 --> 00:43:39,116
Speaker 5: that posed.

823
00:43:39,956 --> 00:43:43,716
Speaker 2: Hmmm, yeah, that's something that Khalil Lexto always say that

824
00:43:43,716 --> 00:43:48,636
Speaker 2: the backlash is so strong because the danger of multiracial

825
00:43:48,636 --> 00:43:52,196
Speaker 2: democracy is real. One of the lessons that I took

826
00:43:52,236 --> 00:43:56,636
Speaker 2: away from reading the book is what you talked about earlier,

827
00:43:56,716 --> 00:43:59,876
Speaker 2: kind of a mission on King's part, which is overlooking

828
00:43:59,916 --> 00:44:03,596
Speaker 2: women in the movement. And you know, it's so clear

829
00:44:03,716 --> 00:44:07,436
Speaker 2: that that women need to be part of the struggle

830
00:44:07,476 --> 00:44:11,676
Speaker 2: going forward, and they were, they were diminished somewhat during

831
00:44:11,716 --> 00:44:14,796
Speaker 2: his time, and so there seems to be like, when

832
00:44:14,836 --> 00:44:17,196
Speaker 2: I think of the lessons for today, that seems to

833
00:44:17,196 --> 00:44:18,156
Speaker 2: be part of it for sure.

834
00:44:18,556 --> 00:44:21,356
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's one of the negative lessons, and you know,

835
00:44:21,396 --> 00:44:23,916
Speaker 5: we can see it. King missed out on a huge

836
00:44:23,956 --> 00:44:27,356
Speaker 5: opportunity there, and everybody from Ella Baker to King's own

837
00:44:27,356 --> 00:44:31,316
Speaker 5: wife was trying to wake him up to that, and

838
00:44:32,636 --> 00:44:34,476
Speaker 5: he failed. And maybe if he'd lived longer, he would

839
00:44:34,476 --> 00:44:35,796
Speaker 5: have come around and seen the light.

840
00:44:36,516 --> 00:44:39,116
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you just used a word wake up, which

841
00:44:39,636 --> 00:44:41,836
Speaker 3: it actually is a term that comes up in the

842
00:44:41,996 --> 00:44:45,796
Speaker 3: very last sentence of the book. And Ben and I

843
00:44:45,836 --> 00:44:52,476
Speaker 3: were joking about the fact that this notion of being

844
00:44:52,556 --> 00:44:57,476
Speaker 3: woke right has become essentially criminalized in something like twenty

845
00:44:57,516 --> 00:45:00,796
Speaker 3: states in terms of what it means to teach children

846
00:45:00,916 --> 00:45:04,156
Speaker 3: the actual king, the radical king, the king who believed

847
00:45:04,156 --> 00:45:07,076
Speaker 3: in a revolution of values, or even to teach about

848
00:45:07,476 --> 00:45:09,116
Speaker 3: the FBI's Hitler.

849
00:45:09,516 --> 00:45:11,196
Speaker 2: Right, I'm the very last line of the book. Re

850
00:45:11,356 --> 00:45:12,156
Speaker 2: read the line.

851
00:45:12,596 --> 00:45:15,156
Speaker 3: No, no, I'm going to I'm want to ask John, John,

852
00:45:15,196 --> 00:45:16,996
Speaker 3: I'm going to have you say it.

853
00:45:17,036 --> 00:45:18,476
Speaker 1: Do you know the last line of the book?

854
00:45:18,476 --> 00:45:20,476
Speaker 4: I don't you do it?

855
00:45:20,476 --> 00:45:23,316
Speaker 1: All right? All right, find it. It's the very last line.

856
00:45:23,316 --> 00:45:26,956
Speaker 5: You got to read it are very Survival depends on

857
00:45:27,076 --> 00:45:30,516
Speaker 5: our ability to stay awake, to adjust to new ideas,

858
00:45:30,796 --> 00:45:33,876
Speaker 5: to remain vigilant, and to face the challenge of change.

859
00:45:34,396 --> 00:45:36,796
Speaker 2: Thank you for reading that. Were you thinking there. Even

860
00:45:36,836 --> 00:45:39,476
Speaker 2: in writing that about sort of all the current attacks,

861
00:45:39,516 --> 00:45:43,396
Speaker 2: I'm being called wokeness, like the anti wokeness movement from

862
00:45:43,436 --> 00:45:43,756
Speaker 2: the right.

863
00:45:44,756 --> 00:45:46,396
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was that was a part of it. But

864
00:45:46,476 --> 00:45:49,596
Speaker 5: the main point I think is that he's saying we

865
00:45:49,756 --> 00:45:51,516
Speaker 5: have to stay alert and if you want to use

866
00:45:51,516 --> 00:45:53,596
Speaker 5: the word woke, fine, but we have to be aware

867
00:45:53,636 --> 00:45:56,876
Speaker 5: that that conditions always change, but our principles don't have to,

868
00:45:57,316 --> 00:45:59,516
Speaker 5: and that we have to keep fighting no matter what

869
00:45:59,556 --> 00:46:03,636
Speaker 5: the conditions we're in. And if you're not, if you're

870
00:46:03,636 --> 00:46:05,436
Speaker 5: so set in your way, is that you're not paying

871
00:46:05,436 --> 00:46:08,276
Speaker 5: attention to the changes and you're not adapting to them,

872
00:46:08,316 --> 00:46:11,356
Speaker 5: and you're not renewing your call and renewing your vision,

873
00:46:11,716 --> 00:46:15,236
Speaker 5: then you're not going to get it done. Yeah.

874
00:46:15,436 --> 00:46:17,236
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's encouraging.

875
00:46:17,316 --> 00:46:19,476
Speaker 3: Let's let's hope the book doesn't end up on any

876
00:46:19,516 --> 00:46:20,636
Speaker 3: banned book list, so.

877
00:46:20,636 --> 00:46:23,476
Speaker 5: It might be good for some more people, you know,

878
00:46:23,556 --> 00:46:25,356
Speaker 5: I do want it to be in everybody's hands.

879
00:46:26,356 --> 00:46:29,276
Speaker 2: Yeah, people who might Yeah, people who might not initially

880
00:46:29,876 --> 00:46:32,156
Speaker 2: embraced King but could learn a lot from this book

881
00:46:32,396 --> 00:46:34,796
Speaker 2: and can learn about our democracy.

882
00:46:35,436 --> 00:46:38,716
Speaker 3: Well, John, it was a true delight to have you

883
00:46:38,756 --> 00:46:41,356
Speaker 3: on some of my best friends, are I learned some

884
00:46:41,476 --> 00:46:44,676
Speaker 3: new things in reading your biography. I hope that our

885
00:46:44,676 --> 00:46:46,716
Speaker 3: listeners pick it up and check it out as well.

886
00:46:47,796 --> 00:46:49,636
Speaker 3: We're excited to see what comes next.

887
00:46:49,476 --> 00:47:08,716
Speaker 4: For you don't even ask oh, thank you guys man.

888
00:47:09,556 --> 00:47:13,396
Speaker 2: So John's book and maybe even more so, the conversation

889
00:47:13,516 --> 00:47:17,596
Speaker 2: that we just had made me think about King differently. Okay,

890
00:47:17,596 --> 00:47:21,396
Speaker 2: it made me think about King really as part of

891
00:47:21,756 --> 00:47:26,876
Speaker 2: the complex history and politics of his moment, you know,

892
00:47:26,956 --> 00:47:30,876
Speaker 2: like we often think about King or the fight for

893
00:47:30,956 --> 00:47:34,036
Speaker 2: civil rights almost in kind of biblical terms, like you know,

894
00:47:34,156 --> 00:47:38,516
Speaker 2: Moses getting the Israelites out of Egypt, and as you said,

895
00:47:38,516 --> 00:47:42,116
Speaker 2: there was like this brass ring of fighting for voting rights.

896
00:47:42,636 --> 00:47:45,916
Speaker 2: But he was also just like part of history, like

897
00:47:45,956 --> 00:47:49,116
Speaker 2: he had to think about the political moment, like there's

898
00:47:49,116 --> 00:47:52,516
Speaker 2: a war going on, I gotta say something, and like

899
00:47:52,556 --> 00:47:55,436
Speaker 2: there's a Democrat running for president LBJ, Do I support

900
00:47:55,476 --> 00:47:58,196
Speaker 2: him or not? That's right to me. That's so interesting

901
00:47:58,196 --> 00:48:01,076
Speaker 2: because it makes me think of like any leader today,

902
00:48:01,276 --> 00:48:04,076
Speaker 2: you know, you know, do you support Biden his re

903
00:48:04,196 --> 00:48:07,596
Speaker 2: election campaign? You know, do you talk about climate change? Also?

904
00:48:07,676 --> 00:48:11,476
Speaker 2: Do you talk about immigration? Like everything is watered down?

905
00:48:11,516 --> 00:48:14,916
Speaker 2: And that's yeah, it's just a different view of King.

906
00:48:15,036 --> 00:48:18,156
Speaker 2: It's a different way to think about him, and it's

907
00:48:18,196 --> 00:48:20,396
Speaker 2: also what makes John's book unique.

908
00:48:20,396 --> 00:48:24,716
Speaker 3: I think, well, I think in general, biographies at their

909
00:48:24,796 --> 00:48:31,076
Speaker 3: best capture the indeterminacy, the uncertainty, the emotional rollercoaster that

910
00:48:31,196 --> 00:48:34,716
Speaker 3: leaders experience, and people who are involved in work that

911
00:48:34,916 --> 00:48:39,316
Speaker 3: is disruptive, that is dangerous. And I love that in

912
00:48:39,356 --> 00:48:43,116
Speaker 3: this conversation with Jonathan we were able to hear from

913
00:48:43,196 --> 00:48:46,316
Speaker 3: him and of course, having read the book, just how

914
00:48:46,396 --> 00:48:50,836
Speaker 3: much this new information draws our attention to these guys.

915
00:48:50,956 --> 00:48:53,476
Speaker 3: You know, they were all young. King was mostly you know,

916
00:48:53,516 --> 00:48:56,556
Speaker 3: the late nineties and early thirties, I mean, unbelievable, right,

917
00:48:57,876 --> 00:49:00,956
Speaker 3: So I hope that people pick this biography up. You know,

918
00:49:01,036 --> 00:49:04,236
Speaker 3: this is a moment for revisiting this past that will

919
00:49:04,276 --> 00:49:07,996
Speaker 3: help us hopefully see our way through the battles ahead.

920
00:49:08,476 --> 00:49:12,036
Speaker 2: Right right, Well, love you, Khalil.

921
00:49:11,996 --> 00:49:16,956
Speaker 1: Love you too.

922
00:49:18,876 --> 00:49:21,236
Speaker 3: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of

923
00:49:21,316 --> 00:49:25,196
Speaker 3: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me Khalil,

924
00:49:25,276 --> 00:49:27,876
Speaker 3: Jabon Muhammad, and my best friend Ben Austin.

925
00:49:28,076 --> 00:49:31,996
Speaker 2: It's produced by Lucy Sullivan. Our associate producer is Rachel Yang.

926
00:49:32,516 --> 00:49:35,836
Speaker 2: It's edited by Sarah Nix with help from Keishel Williams.

927
00:49:36,156 --> 00:49:39,956
Speaker 2: Our engineer is Amanda ka Wang and our managing producer

928
00:49:40,116 --> 00:49:41,956
Speaker 2: is Constanza Guyardo.

929
00:49:42,396 --> 00:49:46,836
Speaker 3: At Pushkin thanks to Leitol, Molad, Julia Barton, Heather Faine,

930
00:49:47,196 --> 00:49:52,236
Speaker 3: Carly Migliori, John schnarz Retta Cone, and Jacob Weisberg.

931
00:49:52,476 --> 00:49:56,236
Speaker 2: Our theme song, Little Lily, is by fellow chicagoan the

932
00:49:56,316 --> 00:50:00,236
Speaker 2: Brilliant Avery R. Young from his album Tubman. You definitely

933
00:50:00,236 --> 00:50:03,276
Speaker 2: want to check out his music at his website Averyaryong

934
00:50:03,356 --> 00:50:03,956
Speaker 2: dot com.

935
00:50:04,076 --> 00:50:07,676
Speaker 3: You can find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods,

936
00:50:08,036 --> 00:50:10,596
Speaker 3: and you can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin

937
00:50:10,676 --> 00:50:14,556
Speaker 3: dot fm. To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the

938
00:50:14,596 --> 00:50:18,556
Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you like to listen.

939
00:50:18,756 --> 00:50:21,116
Speaker 2: And if you like our show, please give us a

940
00:50:21,156 --> 00:50:23,756
Speaker 2: five star rating and a review and listen. Even if

941
00:50:23,796 --> 00:50:25,396
Speaker 2: you don't like it, give it a five star rating

942
00:50:25,436 --> 00:50:28,276
Speaker 2: and a review, and please tell all of your best

943
00:50:28,356 --> 00:50:42,476
Speaker 2: friends about it. Thank you. If that aside Khalil remains it,

944
00:50:42,516 --> 00:50:48,276
Speaker 2: I'm gonna buy you lunch okay, whatever man