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Speaker 1: Most people think they would never fall for a cult.

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Speaker 1: I used to think that too. When I thought about cults,

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Speaker 1: I imagine bonfires, rituals, and robes. I never imagine kindness,

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Speaker 1: or small rules, or loyalty that slowly rewrites your mind.

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Speaker 1: But the truth is, no one thinks they're joining a cult.

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Speaker 1: You think you're joining a family, a group that promises

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Speaker 1: purpose and belonging. You give yourself to it because it

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Speaker 1: feels right, and somewhere along the way you stop realizing

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Speaker 1: how much of you it's taken. And then when you're there,

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Speaker 1: you say, because it feels safer inside than outside, because

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Speaker 1: if you leave, it means losing everything you've built around that,

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Speaker 1: all the people you love, your sense of self. Today's

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Speaker 1: episode is the second of our two Bonus Conversations. If

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Speaker 1: the last one explored how the Legion built power through

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Speaker 1: the media, this one looks inward at what happens inside

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Speaker 1: a person when they're part of a high control group,

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Speaker 1: how brainwashing actually works in everyday life, and how it

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Speaker 1: hides under routines, prayers, and good intentions. We'll hear from

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Speaker 1: doctor Stephen Hasen, a mental health counselor and a former

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Speaker 1: member of the Moonies, one of the most recognized high

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Speaker 1: control religious movements in the world. His story is different

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Speaker 1: from mind but the patterns are familiar. The promises, the fear,

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Speaker 1: the slow shift in who you believe you are. My

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Speaker 1: name is Helena Sadah and this is Secret Scandal, Episode

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Speaker 1: twelve interview with Steve Hassen. This interview was conducted by

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Speaker 1: Alvaro Sespdes, one of the writers and producers of Sacred

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Speaker 1: Scandal The Many Secrets of Marcelle Marseille. You'll hear his

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Speaker 1: voice guiding the interview.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so, doctor Hassen, I would like to begin by

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Speaker 2: asking you the most basic question, who are you and

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Speaker 2: what do you do?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my name is doctor Stephen Hassen. I am a

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Speaker 3: licensed mental health counselor. I am a former member of

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Speaker 3: the Moonies cult that I was involved with in the

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Speaker 3: nineteen seventies, and I've spent forty nine years helping people

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Speaker 3: understand brainwashing and mind control. I've written five books, I've

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Speaker 3: done four TEDx talks, and my doctorate is on my

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Speaker 3: model of the bite model of authoritarian control as a

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Speaker 3: way to evaluate destructive cults.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean you've done obviously a lot of research

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Speaker 2: into cults, but I guess that nothing compares to the

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Speaker 2: actual experience of being in one, right. Can you tell

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Speaker 2: us a little bit about that part of your life

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Speaker 2: when you were a part of the Moonies.

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Speaker 4: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So my experience growing up was with a very close,

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Speaker 3: loving family. I was an extra honor student. I was

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Speaker 3: not a joiner, but I got deceptively recruited by women

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Speaker 3: flirting with me after my girlfriend and dumped me while

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Speaker 3: a college student, and within a few weeks, I was

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Speaker 3: believing that Sun Young Moon was the messiah, that the

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Speaker 3: world was coming to World War three, that I was

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Speaker 3: being chosen by God, and I was told to drop

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Speaker 3: out of college, throw out my original poetry. I was

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Speaker 3: a creative writing major, and I became a right wing

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Speaker 3: fascist for about two and a half years and was

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Speaker 3: fanatical and was promoted to leadership. Not that I had

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Speaker 3: any power, but I was very useful to recruit and

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Speaker 3: indoctrinate people. And it was that experience of being in

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Speaker 3: the cult that I really wanted to understand. Man, how

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Speaker 3: did they get to me and how did they convince

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Speaker 3: me to be completely a different person than I was

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Speaker 3: and turn my back on my country and my religion.

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Speaker 3: My family in my chosen passion, which was writing poetry.

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Speaker 2: And what was it like for you to the process

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Speaker 2: of getting out? Was it an easy process in any way?

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Speaker 4: Not at all.

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Speaker 3: It was horrible, actually, So I nearly died in a

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Speaker 3: van crash because I fell asleep at the wheel. I

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Speaker 3: drove into the back of a tractor trailer truck at

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Speaker 3: high speed. So I was in a lot of pain

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Speaker 3: in the hospital for weeks kneading surgery on my ankle.

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Speaker 3: And it was though in that period that I was

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Speaker 3: no longer being constantly controlled by the group, and I

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Speaker 3: was sleeping a lot, and I reached out to my sister,

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Speaker 3: who was the only person in my life who didn't

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Speaker 3: say I was brainwashed in a cult, so I didn't

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Speaker 3: think she was Satan like I did with my parents

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Speaker 3: and my oldest sister. And she convinced me to come

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Speaker 3: busy at her during my rehabilitation, and I got permission

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Speaker 3: to do that, and I made her promise not to

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Speaker 3: tell my family that I was visiting, because I was

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Speaker 3: afraid of deprogramming, because that's part of how the group

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Speaker 3: keeps people in fear. But she did tell my parents

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Speaker 3: and they did hire x Moonies and begged me to

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Speaker 3: talk with them so at least I could have an

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Speaker 3: informed decision whether I wanted to stay in the group

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Speaker 3: or not.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and you decided obviously you didn't want to belong

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Speaker 2: to that group anymore.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was fanatical, so I blocked a lot of

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Speaker 3: the information for days. But I finally had a realization

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Speaker 3: that Moon was a liar, and if he was a liar,

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Speaker 3: then he couldn't be the Messiah, and he couldn't be

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Speaker 3: a man of God, and he wasn't going to be

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Speaker 3: someone I could trust if he was a liar. So

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Speaker 3: once I started questioning Moon himself, then the whole indoctrination

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Speaker 3: fell apart in my head and I cried for hours,

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Speaker 3: and I was just so ashamed, embarrassed, confused because everyone

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Speaker 3: had been telling me I was in a cult and

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Speaker 3: I was brainwashed, but I didn't think I was in

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Speaker 3: a cult, and I didn't feel brainwashed.

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Speaker 1: Moments like that are what break the spill, when doubt

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Speaker 1: finally cuts three years of control. Nobody thinks they're being brainwashed,

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Speaker 1: nobody thinks their whole life might be a lie. It's

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Speaker 1: a hard idea to face. It shatters everything you thought

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Speaker 1: was real. I remember what that feels like, and how

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Speaker 1: long it takes for the truth to stop feeling like betrayal.

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Speaker 1: Back after a short break, you're listening to Sacred Scandal,

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Speaker 1: the Many Secrets of Marcelle Masille. Now we move from

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Speaker 1: Stevens's story to what he spent his life trying to

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Speaker 1: understand how groups like this take over your mind.

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Speaker 2: So my next question would be like, what actually constitutes

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Speaker 2: a cult regarding your own research and your own life experience.

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Speaker 3: Well, over the forty nine years, I've evolved my perspective

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Speaker 3: on things.

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Speaker 4: You can be a fanatical.

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Speaker 3: Sports fan or love a movie that you watch over

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Speaker 3: and over again, and these things are described as cult

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Speaker 3: classics or you know, having fan bases. But there's no deception,

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Speaker 3: there's no intimidation, fear programming of a new identity.

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Speaker 4: If you get.

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Speaker 3: Tired or you don't want to be involved anymore, nobody's

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Speaker 3: going to come after you or threaten you. And as

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Speaker 3: a mental health professional, I teach that is best understood

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Speaker 3: as a dissociative disorder, and it's named as brainwashing, thought reform,

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Speaker 3: coercive control cults, as a disruption of identity, and these

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Speaker 3: authoritarian cults create this new identity that's in the image

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Speaker 3: of the group or following the leader, or both. And

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Speaker 3: this new identity is viewed as your real self for

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Speaker 3: your higher self, and your who you are before is

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Speaker 3: your satanic self for your lower self.

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Speaker 4: And so there's the split.

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Speaker 3: And it's important for me to explain it this way

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Speaker 3: because brainwashing does not.

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Speaker 4: Erase who you were before.

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Speaker 3: It creates this new identity that is takes you over

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Speaker 3: and replaces your operating system, not unlike how a computer

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Speaker 3: gets taken over by malware, but the operating code is

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Speaker 3: still there. You just have to get rid of the malware.

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Speaker 3: And so that is what I do. I don't try

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Speaker 3: to persuade people to leave cults. I teach them about

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Speaker 3: how the mind works, and I ask people to question

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Speaker 3: their experience.

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Speaker 2: But I guess most people associate cults with like fringe movements, right,

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Speaker 2: like deities from outer space or mass suicides or far

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Speaker 2: away places. But how can we start to think of

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Speaker 2: parts of the Catholic Church, which is an organization with

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Speaker 2: millions of followers around the world that has existed for

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Speaker 2: thousands of years now, how can these parts of the

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Speaker 2: Catholic Church or mainstream religions be considered cults, like how

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Speaker 2: is different a religion from a cult?

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Speaker 4: So there are many variations.

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Speaker 3: There are political cults, therapy cults, multi level marketing cults,

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Speaker 3: commercial cults like trafficking labor and sex trafficking. And so

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Speaker 3: what I focus on is the skeleton or the bones

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Speaker 3: of what the group is actually doing to subvert people's

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Speaker 3: individuality and ability.

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Speaker 4: To think for themselves. And when it comes to the

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Speaker 4: Catholic Church, you know, what.

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Speaker 3: I also emphasize is that we need to focus on

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Speaker 3: the here and now, and we can look at an

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Speaker 3: organization and how they may have acted two thousand years

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Speaker 3: ago or three hundred years ago. And when it comes

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Speaker 3: to the Catholic Church, one could argue back in the

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Speaker 3: sixteenth century that the Pope was with his Doctrine of

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Speaker 3: Discovery telling explorers to go forth and conquer indigenous tribes

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Speaker 3: and convert them or kill them, and that this was

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Speaker 3: a sacred plan of God and people did it. But

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Speaker 3: it is not the current teaching, or one would argue,

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Speaker 3: is not Jesus's teachings.

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Speaker 2: Would you consider the Legion of Christ to be like

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Speaker 2: on the cult side of the Catholic Church.

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Speaker 3: So the answer is I was not a member of

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Speaker 3: these groups. So I'm dependent on people who've studied these groups,

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Speaker 3: especially former members, and when I interview them, I want

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Speaker 3: them to explicitly go over the behavior control, the information

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Speaker 3: and thought and emotional control elements and teach me whether

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Speaker 3: or not they think it fits the authoritarian mind control

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Speaker 3: cult model. And in the case of the Legionaries of Christ,

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Speaker 3: I've heard from enough former members that I take the

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Speaker 3: position that if it walks like a duck and quacks

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Speaker 3: like a duck, and has feathers like a duck, then

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Speaker 3: it's likely a duck.

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Speaker 2: You know. Elena Sada, our host who's narrating this series,

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Speaker 2: she was raised in a legionary environment, right, how can

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Speaker 2: that play a part in becoming like from being raised

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Speaker 2: in a certain environment to actually becoming a part of

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Speaker 2: that certain environment, regardless if it's a toxic environment or not.

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Speaker 3: With folks born or raised in groups, they don't know

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Speaker 3: what it's normal or healthy because they only know their experience.

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Speaker 4: And it's only.

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Speaker 3: When they get out of the group and start learning

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Speaker 3: about other groups and what also learning about what was healthy?

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Speaker 3: What's healthy Christianity? What does the Bible actually say that

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Speaker 3: they realize how abused they were in their childhood.

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Speaker 2: And regarding you know, leaving a certain movement or a

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Speaker 2: cult or part of an organized religion, what are the

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Speaker 2: psychological mechanisms that get activated when you begin to think

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Speaker 2: of living a cult, and what are the outside responses

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Speaker 2: of the group, of the members of this group.

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Speaker 3: What people need to understand is that as humans, we

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Speaker 3: are programmed to avoid anything that is toxic or dangerous,

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Speaker 3: So we don't want to get harmed, we don't want

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Speaker 3: to die. But most people don't think about the fact

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Speaker 3: that people can be indoctrinated with irrational fears that if

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Speaker 3: they question the group or the leader or want to

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Speaker 3: leave the group, terrible things are going to happen to them.

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Speaker 3: And these mind control cults tell stories about people who

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Speaker 3: wanted to leave and they got run over by a car,

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Speaker 3: or they committed suicide, or they became a prostitute or

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Speaker 3: a drug addict. In other words, when you have a

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Speaker 3: phobia against leaving an authoritarian group, you can't imagine leaving

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Speaker 3: and being happy and fulfilled. You can only imagine tragedy

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Speaker 3: and terrible, miserable future, and that keeps many people trapped

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Speaker 3: for years.

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Speaker 1: I remember that fear in the Legion, it didn't sound

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Speaker 1: like a thread. It sounded like love and sacrifice. We

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Speaker 1: were taught that the world outside was empty, selfish, dangerous,

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Speaker 1: that living men, turning your back on God, on everything

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Speaker 1: that gave your life meaning. So you stay. You convince

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Speaker 1: yourself that staying is safer, And even when you leave,

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Speaker 1: the fierce days with you whispering that maybe they were right,

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Speaker 1: it takes time to realize that voice isn't yours anymore more.

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Speaker 1: After the break, when I loved the Legion, I didn't

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Speaker 1: tell anyone, not my friends, not even my mother. She

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Speaker 1: still believed in Massiel and thought I was making a mistake.

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Speaker 1: I just left. I rented a small apartment and slept

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Speaker 1: for days. I couldn't eat or think. It felt like

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Speaker 1: my body was finally reacting to everything I had ignored

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Speaker 1: for years. I wasn't angry or even sad. I was

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Speaker 1: just tired, too tired to explain myself to anyone. But

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Speaker 1: living is only the first part. What comes after is harder.

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Speaker 1: There's a backlash, the phone calls, the guilt. People you

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Speaker 1: loved stop talking to you. Some say you've turned your

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Speaker 1: back on God, that you've been manipulated by the outside world,

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Speaker 1: and for a while you almost believe them. The programming

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen in a day. It's low, confusing work. It

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Speaker 1: took me a long time to understand that living isn't freedom,

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Speaker 1: it's only the start of it. Doctor Hasen knows that

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Speaker 1: part well. He explains what comes next, what happens when

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Speaker 1: someone finally walks away on the long road that follows.

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Speaker 2: Something that we have you know, noticed and encountered during

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Speaker 2: the whole research process of the series is that people

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Speaker 2: who leave the group aren't necessarily immediately happier, Right. It

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Speaker 2: takes years for them to actually retake, like regain control

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Speaker 2: of their lives. Right. How can being a part of

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Speaker 2: a cult scar your memories or your life and makes

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Speaker 2: it harder, you know, to actually becoming part of society again.

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Speaker 3: So if you're born or raised in a cult and

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Speaker 3: you have not had a normal exposure, it's a huge adjustment.

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Speaker 4: We call it socialization.

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Speaker 3: Is necessary to learn, like what is applying for a

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Speaker 3: job look like? Or going on a date or kissing

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Speaker 3: someone is an extraordinarily fear provoking thing, especially if you

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Speaker 3: leave as an adult, And so it takes time and

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Speaker 3: ideally a great support network of former members. When you're

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Speaker 3: coming out of a cult, you're like, I don't know

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Speaker 3: who I am, and so I have to talk to

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Speaker 3: my clients about I understand, and I believe if you

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Speaker 3: really go inside, you can ask yourself the question when

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Speaker 3: do I.

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Speaker 4: Feel the most me?

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Speaker 3: And when I ask clients that question, I often think

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Speaker 3: about it for a long time and then say when

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Speaker 3: I'm playing guitar, or when I'm dancing, or when I'm

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Speaker 3: teaching children, or when I'm with animals, or when I'm surfing.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've heard it all, but it's a starting

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Speaker 3: point for people to when I say to them, you

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Speaker 3: get to create your own identity now that you're out.

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Speaker 4: You get to choose who you want to be. And

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Speaker 4: they often because they were raised.

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Speaker 3: In an authoritarian cult or used to somebody tell them

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Speaker 3: telling them who they are or what to believe or

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Speaker 3: what to do, and so it's a journey, it's a process.

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Speaker 3: But I can tell you that people are, for the

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Speaker 3: most part, so grateful to be free. Part of the

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Speaker 3: confusion with religious cults is the human institution gets confused

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Speaker 3: with God. So people think being in the group means

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Speaker 3: they're serving God, and when they realize people can leave

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Speaker 3: and still have a relationship with God, or have a

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Speaker 3: relationship with the Catholic Church and.

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Speaker 4: Not with the group. It opens up doors to possibilities.

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Speaker 2: How can you explain from a like a sociological perspective,

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Speaker 2: maybe that the Legion of Christ there's still running schools,

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Speaker 2: there's still gaining followers, and they're still growing numbers after

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Speaker 2: it has been repeatedly proven that its founder was a criminal,

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Speaker 2: m he was an abuser of children, right, he was

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Speaker 2: a junkie, he was a he laundered money, and not

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Speaker 2: only himself, but that dozens of other priests from disorder

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Speaker 2: have become abusers as well. How can they still be

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Speaker 2: able to manipulate thousands of people in order to still,

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Speaker 2: you know, run this organization.

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Speaker 3: I can only say that the more former members pull

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Speaker 3: back the veil and expose what it's really like inside

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Speaker 3: this organization, that I hope that the current administration and

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Speaker 3: the Catholic Church will take steps.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, And I guess you know, probably my last question is,

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Speaker 2: you know something that we have learned through these years

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Speaker 2: of research is that some legionary priests that were abused

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Speaker 2: by Marcel Mattiel actually became abusers themselves. Like, how can

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Speaker 2: you explain a pattern of repetition from a psychological perspective

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Speaker 2: of something that's just universally condemned.

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Speaker 3: What I think psychologically is happening is that a very

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Speaker 3: small percentage of people who were thevictims of child sexual

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Speaker 3: abuse go on to become predators themselves, because it's a

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Speaker 3: defense mechanism to identify with the aggressor.

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Speaker 4: And much of what.

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Speaker 3: We now know about the mind and about psychology is

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Speaker 3: that we have a desire. We as humans have a

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Speaker 3: desire to heal from trauma and from wounds that we have,

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Speaker 3: and we often don't have the right healing techniques or

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Speaker 3: mechanisms for resolving and healing a trauma. And when you're

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Speaker 3: a child and you're powerless and some adult is forcing

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Speaker 3: themselves and it's causing pain and trauma. Again, there's a

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Speaker 3: small percentage of people who go on to become predators

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Speaker 3: because now they're imposing that fear and trauma on someone else.

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Speaker 4: So it enables them to feel less.

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Speaker 3: Traumatized because they have the power now to do it.

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Speaker 3: But it's not a satisfying resolution of trauma. It's an

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Speaker 3: acting out that is antisocial.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if there's anything that you would like

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Speaker 2: to add, any message that you would like to, you know,

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Speaker 2: give out to you know, any former members or actual

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Speaker 2: members that could be listening to us.

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Speaker 4: So I want to say that for me, I salute and.

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Speaker 3: Applaud former members who have exited and who want to

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Speaker 3: shed a light on the destructive aspects of any destructive cult.

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Speaker 3: It takes a lot of courage and it takes a

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Speaker 3: lot of ethics to realize I don't want anyone else

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Speaker 3: to have to be subjected to what I was subjected to,

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Speaker 3: and I'd like to help my friends or family that

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Speaker 3: are still stuck in the group to help others. I

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Speaker 3: also believe that we want to do what we can

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Speaker 3: to undermine stigma that's attached to having been born, or

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Speaker 3: raised or recruited into a cult, because the public doesn't

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Speaker 3: understand that it's not our fault that this happened to us.

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Speaker 3: It's a human thing to adapt to authority, to conform

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Speaker 3: to rules and regulations that we believe are legitimate authority.

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Speaker 4: And so the.

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Speaker 3: More people who speak out about their own cult experience,

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Speaker 3: it will cause destigmatization of it for everybody else.

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Speaker 4: So I think that's really really important.

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Speaker 3: So I like to say, it's your mind and only

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Speaker 3: you should control it. You should have an internal locus

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Speaker 3: of control for who you are and be in your body.

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Speaker 3: You know, because brainwashing is a dissociative disorder. It doesn't

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Speaker 3: want you to be in your body listening to your intuition.

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Speaker 3: And I think our intuition tells us often that something's

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Speaker 3: not right, and we should listen to it.

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Speaker 1: My experience inside the Legion taught me the hardest lessons.

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Speaker 1: For years, I thought all it left me with was

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Speaker 1: silence and confusion, But over time I realized it also

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Speaker 1: left me with discipline, resilience, and the ability to start over.

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Speaker 1: What I lost there taught me how to listen to

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Speaker 1: my body, to my intuition, to that inner compass that

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Speaker 1: warns me with something feels wrong. For years, I silenced it.

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Speaker 1: Now I know it's the one voice I can trust.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Hassen says that brainwashing doesn't erase who you are,

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Speaker 1: it just bears you. He's right, because underneath it all,

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Speaker 1: there's still a self that remembers and refuses to disappear.

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Speaker 1: Telling this story has made me see how much of

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Speaker 1: that's trand survived. It isn't the way I move through

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Speaker 1: the world now slower, but present isn't the way I listen,

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Speaker 1: the way I stay close to my family, the way

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Speaker 1: I pay attention to what's real. Maybe that's the gift

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Speaker 1: of going through something like this. You stop taking clarity

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Speaker 1: for granted, you stop confusing control with faith, and you

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Speaker 1: learn that resilience isn't about never falling. It's about knowing

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Speaker 1: how to get up and keep going. I'm Eleno Sada,

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Speaker 1: and this has been Circus Scandal The Many Secrets of

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Speaker 1: Marcel Massil Sacres Scandal. The Many Secrets of Marcel Masil

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Speaker 1: is a production of a half podcast in partnership with

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Speaker 1: Iheartmichael Tura podcast Network and is hosted by me Elena Sada,

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Speaker 1: written by Menissa Hendrix and Alvaro sz Pedes, Produced by

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Speaker 1: Alvao Pedes and ROBERTA Garza, Research and reporting by Robert Tagarza,

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Speaker 1: edited by Jasmine Romeo with the help of Carmen Graterol

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Speaker 1: in fact checking by Annapla Tovar. The vocal coach for

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Speaker 1: me Elena Sada is in A Tapia. Executive producers at

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Speaker 1: AHA Podcast are Carmen Gratterol, Isaac Lee, and j H

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Speaker 1: kr mixing and sound designed by Patrick and Jones. Original

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Speaker 1: ms by Darko and I Am based on Patrick Hart's

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Speaker 1: original composition. Executive producers that I Heard are Leo Gomez

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Speaker 1: and Arlene Santana. Alexis Cardosa also serves as producer. Sircars

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Speaker 1: Scandal was created by Melanie Bartley and Paula Varos