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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And a Pew Research poll shows that

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Speaker 1: across thirty six nations, twenty three percent of adults express

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Speaker 1: confidence in Trump's leadership of world affairs. We have such

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Speaker 1: a great show for you today, The New York Times

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Speaker 1: is own. Maggie Haberman stops by to talk about the

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Speaker 1: blockbuster revelations in her new book, Regime Change. Then we'll

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Speaker 1: talk to former US Attorney Barbara McQuaid about her new book,

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Speaker 1: The Fix, Saving America from the corruption of a mob

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Speaker 1: style government. But first, the news.

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Speaker 2: Somali Tucker Carlson and Marjorie Taylor Green in twenty four

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Speaker 2: hours of both basically coming out saying that they're not Republicans,

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Speaker 2: a lot of people are clopping back saying that they're

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Speaker 2: going to still vote for them. I think that this

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Speaker 2: is some people seeing the right on the wall of

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Speaker 2: Trump's sinking ship and trying to make a new brand

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Speaker 2: for their careers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I remember, Tucker Ralson is reflecting just

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Speaker 1: like Marjorie Taylor Green is reflecting the views of his

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Speaker 1: constituents of the people who listen to his podcast. He

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Speaker 1: is as much a leader as he is a follower

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Speaker 1: of his people, and his people do not like this war.

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Speaker 1: His people are going to the gas station and finding

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Speaker 1: gas to be five dollars a gallon. His people are hurting.

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Speaker 1: And so this is as much a reflection of where

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Speaker 1: the magabase is as it is where Tucker Rahlson is,

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Speaker 1: and they are split. And this is the other thing

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Speaker 1: that you have to remember about Trump. It's like there's

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Speaker 1: no historical precedent for a president who runs on one thing,

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Speaker 1: ending for wars and making things cheaper, and then immediately

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Speaker 1: does what gets in four wars and makes things more expensive.

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Speaker 1: So you can see how there's going to be go

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Speaker 1: back here.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think there is an interistic thing that you know,

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Speaker 2: everybody has their own opinions on if Tucker's running. We

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Speaker 2: know Marjorie would love to just keep her career going

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Speaker 2: in some way.

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Speaker 1: But you know, all these people, you don't have to

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Speaker 1: be running for president to want to be popular, like

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Speaker 1: they're incentivized to want to be popular. They have books,

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Speaker 1: they have podcasts, and again, listen to what Carlson says

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Speaker 1: here to ask you know, he says in this soliloquy,

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Speaker 1: he says in this podcast, he says, and if I'm out,

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Speaker 1: then I think a lot of people are out right.

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Speaker 1: This is not about Tucker Carlson. This is about all

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Speaker 1: of the people who listen to Tucker Carlson, who comment

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Speaker 1: on Tucker calls and social media, and they are saying

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Speaker 1: loudly that they are not happy. So, you know, Democrats

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Speaker 1: in disarray, this is the megabase in disarray.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think there is an interesting point here

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Speaker 2: that the gas slators of Trump, there's a lot of

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Speaker 2: them that really are losing a lot of audience, particularly

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Speaker 2: ones known as The Daily Wire, which continue to post

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Speaker 2: more pathetic numbers every day to the point that like

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Speaker 2: they're starting to rival YouTube videos I make where I

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Speaker 2: talk about social media management number.

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Speaker 1: So that is important point here because the Daily Wire

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Speaker 1: is Ben Shapiro, and Ben Shapiro is staunchly pro Israel.

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Speaker 1: And this is a real problem for both the Democrats

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Speaker 1: and we've seen it, but also for the Republicans. Which

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Speaker 1: is over the weekend. Mary and Adelson, you may remember

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Speaker 1: her as being the widow of Sheldon Nagelsen, so she

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Speaker 1: donated over the weekend. Now there's a reason that she

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Speaker 1: is a you know, she's basically a one issue donor,

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Speaker 1: and that issue is Israel. Mary and Adelson gave twenty

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Speaker 1: five million dollars to Maggot Incs the Superpack over the weekend.

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Speaker 1: So remember what happened last week. Jadie Vance said that Israel.

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Speaker 1: He basically gave a sort of little speech where he

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Speaker 1: said that Israel was basically not running the show and

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Speaker 1: that they were a country of nine million people and

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Speaker 1: they should just be happy with whatever America does. So

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Speaker 1: the reason that Marian Adelson gives twenty five million dollars

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Speaker 1: right after that to the MAGA in super pac has

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Speaker 1: to have something to do. The timing is just too

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Speaker 1: coincidental otherwise. And so that's a really good example of

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Speaker 1: how Trump has a real problem here. Right. He has

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Speaker 1: a donor group that is very, very ensconced with Israel,

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Speaker 1: and then he has a base that is not having it,

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Speaker 1: and this is going to be a real problem for

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Speaker 1: Trump and Mega.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, another problem for Trump is this war just keeps

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Speaker 2: on racking up prices. Trump likes to pretend that it's

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Speaker 2: all getting resolved, Oh, everything is going to be fine,

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Speaker 2: just lies about the strait being open, but the Pentagon

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Speaker 2: is saying, no, bro, we need eighty billion.

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Speaker 1: By the way, if you want to see if the

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Speaker 1: strait is open right now, you can go to hermuztracker

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Speaker 1: dot com. Did you know this.

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Speaker 2: We talked about this the other day. The other thing

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Speaker 2: is Al Jazeera has a stream nearly all day long.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so the community her Mouz straight monitor shows that

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Speaker 1: it is restricted and that there are twenty five ships

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Speaker 1: in the last twenty four hours. That is quite a

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Speaker 1: bit fewer than was before. It is not about to normal.

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Speaker 1: So no matter what Donald Trump says, these straits are

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Speaker 1: not open. But the Pentagon needs money. And why do

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Speaker 1: they need money because we used a ton of munitions

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Speaker 1: during this war with Iran. By the way, I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to realize here that we were offered these

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Speaker 1: cheaper Ukrainian drones and we said nil. And so so

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Speaker 1: now the Pentagon wants eighty billion dollars from Congress, mostly

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Speaker 1: to cover this war against Iran that we were never

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Speaker 1: supposed to get into on the first place. This is

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Speaker 1: on top of their request to boost defense spending in

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Speaker 1: the twenty twenty seven budget to one point five trillion,

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Speaker 1: nearly fifty percent more than the current allocations. Increasing military

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Speaker 1: spending in the budget would come alongside cuts to yes,

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Speaker 1: you got it, housing, healthcare, green energy programs. Why are

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Speaker 1: they doing this because they can.

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Speaker 2: Because their layser focused on affordability and the confordability.

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Speaker 1: That's right. You got cuts to snap, you got all

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Speaker 1: sorts of just fool things to hurt people, and then

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Speaker 1: you have a lot more money to the Pentagon. And

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Speaker 1: none of this should be surprising because this is trump

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Speaker 1: Ism in a nutshell. Waste, fraud, and abuse is the point.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, with that laser focus that they have factory jobs,

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Speaker 2: which you may recall are largely Trump voters, they are

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Speaker 2: dropping faster than we thought. According to S ANDP.

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Speaker 1: We knew this was happening because we knew that the

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Speaker 1: trade war was going to affect manufacturing, because there's just

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Speaker 1: no reason to You can't build factories, you can't invest

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Speaker 1: money if you don't know what's going to happen with

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Speaker 1: the tariffs. So job cuts at US factories run near

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Speaker 1: their highest level since the end of the financial crisis

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine. This is because things are

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Speaker 1: more expensive, because there is a lot of uncertainty because

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Speaker 1: of Trump's insane way that he runs the federal government.

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Speaker 1: The manufacturing index ran better than expected, but that's because

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Speaker 1: people are rebuilding inventory. This is like pretty bad, and

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Speaker 1: it's all so you know, people are losing their jobs

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Speaker 1: and none of this needs to happen. It's because it's

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Speaker 1: just so much craziness in the way our federal government

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Speaker 1: is being run right now.

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Speaker 2: Yes, one of the interesting things is we do see

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Speaker 2: those people who are vulnerable and up for elections sooner

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Speaker 2: than later doing something about this. The Senate is addressing

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Speaker 2: the fact that private equity is buying up every house

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Speaker 2: in America. We now have the largest amount of people

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Speaker 2: ever who have houses for sale that can't sell them.

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Speaker 2: They're pretty much giving up also because the taxes will

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Speaker 2: be so bad on them if they sell the market

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Speaker 2: value they want for them. And so the Senate is

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Speaker 2: trying to do something about it. We'll see if the

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Speaker 2: House does right.

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Speaker 1: Molly, Well, I don't understand. So the idea is that

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Speaker 1: they're preventing private equity from buying houses.

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Speaker 2: What this bill seeks to do is basically make it

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Speaker 2: so that you're not bidding against black rock and driving

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Speaker 2: up the housing value. But if the inventory is open

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Speaker 2: for a long amount of time and no one's buying it.

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Speaker 2: That it does seem like there's a loophole so that

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Speaker 2: black Croc could per se could buy it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the problem years of affordability. I'm not you know.

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Speaker 1: This is a bipartisan legislation. We have not had a

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Speaker 1: lot of bipartisan legislation, especially in this moment in American life.

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Speaker 1: So that's good. And it would approve a series of

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Speaker 1: funding and grant programs for constructing new homes. It would

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Speaker 1: slash red tape and empower local governments to expedite review

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Speaker 1: for building more housing. That's good. And it would restrict

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Speaker 1: large institutional investors from buying single family homes. We'll see

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Speaker 1: the problem with Trump and trump Ism is that people

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Speaker 1: in our government can, in fact like put together pieces

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Speaker 1: of legislation and then Trump can kill it at the

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Speaker 1: eleventh hour. Remember the Congress before this put together an

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Speaker 1: immigration bill that was very conservative that was put together

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Speaker 1: between Chris Murphy and Bill Cassidy, and it would have

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Speaker 1: basically created a pathway, and it would have made more

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Speaker 1: money for judges and more immigration judges, and it would

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Speaker 1: have solved the crisis at the border. And what happened

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump said, don't approve it because I want to

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Speaker 1: run on the border. I could see Donald Trump getting

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Speaker 1: a call from a private equity firm from a friend

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Speaker 1: of his and being like, ugh, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: do this because private equity firms want and you know

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Speaker 1: he could veto this whole thing. So let's see what happens.

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Speaker 1: Remember Donald Trump not laser focused on affordability.

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Speaker 2: Okay, But Ma, before we're done with this subject, I

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Speaker 2: regret I do have to read a quote from Senator

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Speaker 2: John Kennedy on it for you.

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Speaker 1: Please.

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Speaker 2: You may remember John Kennedy for having a way with words.

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Speaker 2: These days, you'll never get a bill. You gentlemen know

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Speaker 2: this better than I do. That everybody loves it. Gives

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Speaker 2: everybody an orgasm. Ooh, why we don't know why he's

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Speaker 2: like this.

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Speaker 1: Maggie Haberman is a White House correspondent for The New

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Speaker 1: York Times and the co author of Regime Change Inside

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Speaker 1: the Imperial Presidency of Donald Trump. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, Maggie Haberman.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, Mollie, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: So all this president ever Donald Trump. How much anxiety

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Speaker 1: is there about Donald Trump's health?

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me to talk about regime change mal yes,

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Speaker 3: well will yes, we would be number yeah, number one.

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Speaker 3: So we talk a bit about Trump's health in the book,

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Speaker 3: but candidly, there's nothing that we've learned that would change

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Speaker 3: people's understanding of what's happening and what has happened.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 3: What we write is that he's visibly older, that they

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Speaker 3: have stopped releasing as much information, that he has this

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Speaker 3: chronic venus in sufficiency condition, where his ankles were swelling,

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Speaker 3: that there was this episode at least one where you know,

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Speaker 3: his hours have gotten stranger at night. He's always been

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Speaker 3: not much of a sleeper, but they couldn't reach him

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Speaker 3: one morning and a trust today went up to the

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Speaker 3: resident and he was still asleep and so.

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Speaker 1: Concerned about health.

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Speaker 3: Again, I don't know what. I don't know what if

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Jonathan doesn't know what he doesn't know.

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Speaker 3: What we can see is that he is eighty years

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Speaker 3: old and looks it. You know, There's there's rashes under

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Speaker 3: his skin, there's the ankles thing, there's the chronic bruising

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Speaker 3: of the hand. So with any eighty year old in office,

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Speaker 3: as we saw with Biden, you know, and we have

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Speaker 3: seen with other older presidents, there is always more concern

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Speaker 3: than otherwise, but whether there is some greater reason to

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Speaker 3: be it's very hard to say. And Molly, you know,

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Speaker 3: one of the things we read about in the book

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Speaker 3: is that they're actually very good at keeping secrets of

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Speaker 3: this White House, really good, much better than term one.

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump's health is one of the best kept secrets around.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that's incredible. And I haven't

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Speaker 1: finished the book, but I have read this incredible excerpt

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Speaker 1: which you had out of the Situation Room. I would

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Speaker 1: love you to talk about that incredible reporting from the

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Speaker 1: Situation Room about Bongino and Susie Wiles and the meeting

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Speaker 1: about the Epstein files.

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Speaker 3: First of all, just to set the scene here, you know,

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Speaker 3: there were a number of Epstein related Situation Room meetings

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Speaker 3: prior to the release of that memo and after we

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Speaker 3: focused on a few of them, three of which had

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Speaker 3: a huge group of participants, you know, white House chief

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Speaker 3: of Staff, the Vice President of the White House Council,

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Speaker 3: comms folks, the top levels of the Justice Department, all

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Speaker 3: figuring out, you know, how to deal with in the

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Speaker 3: specific ones that we focused on, essentially a crisis comms

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Speaker 3: issue now in the case of the Bongino meeting in particular,

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Speaker 3: this was a smaller one and the reason that this

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Speaker 3: came about was because Bongino and Cash Pattel, the FBI director,

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Speaker 3: and Jade Vance had really made not careers, but they

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Speaker 3: had really gotten attention and a lot of support in

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Speaker 3: the MAGA media ecosystem for several years talking about the

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Speaker 3: conspiracy as they were putting it to hide, you know,

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Speaker 3: a cabala of predators around Jeffrey Epstein. They maintained there

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Speaker 3: was a client list. They wanted this released. All the

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Speaker 3: files will be released when Trump is back in office.

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Speaker 3: So Trump himself, by the way, was really kind of

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Speaker 3: only half hearted about this. So when they take office,

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Speaker 3: they're trying to PLAYCP the base. Pam Bindy makes a

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Speaker 3: huge blunder early on and appears to confirm the existence

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Speaker 3: of a client list and suggests she's looking at it.

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Speaker 3: An administration then finds itself dealing with that. She also

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Speaker 3: hands out these binders to influencers, which had been prepared.

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Speaker 3: As we understand it, she told other people, and her

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Speaker 3: staff told other people by the FBI, and they were told,

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Speaker 3: you know again, according to what they told other people

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Speaker 3: that they were told by the FBI that these contained

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Speaker 3: new information. There was almost nothing new and these binders

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Speaker 3: that went out to these right wing influencers at the

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Speaker 3: White House. But what was more was that Trump's name

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Speaker 3: was in them, and so you know, the Calm Shop

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Speaker 3: had not been warned about that. If you flip it

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Speaker 3: open again, Trump's name had been out there in some

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Speaker 3: previously released files. It's one of the things, Molly that

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Speaker 3: I think people don't understand too is how much stuff

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Speaker 3: had been out there previously. Because the Epstein's story is

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Speaker 3: quite sprawling, covers a bunch of different investigations and civil

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Speaker 3: suits and so forth. So this became this sort of

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Speaker 3: growing churn that they were trying.

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Speaker 2: To deal with.

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Speaker 3: Bongino and Patel, but particularly Bongino, were very frustrated. They

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Speaker 3: felt like they were being held accountable by their base,

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Speaker 3: by their supporters for a strategy that they didn't approve of.

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Speaker 3: They were very angry at Bondie for that error. And

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Speaker 3: this meeting takes place because Bongino in particular is being

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Speaker 3: accused by the White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles

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Speaker 3: of leaking NIGGI stories, and Bongino gets very angry and

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Speaker 3: he blows up it's this remarkable scene. He is bellowing

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Speaker 3: at the White House Chief of Staff in front of

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Speaker 3: the small group of people. You know, essentially, I'll give

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Speaker 3: you, you know, one hundred thousand dollars if you can walk

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Speaker 3: out and prove it outside this room. And she says

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Speaker 3: something like, you know, we all got ourselves into this,

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Speaker 3: and he says, no, no, no, you know, I didn't

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Speaker 3: get us into any of this. And he storms out,

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Speaker 3: and he tells many associates that Bondie, his boss, who

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Speaker 3: he keeps referring to as Blondie, which was Laura Lumer's

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Speaker 3: name for her, that she left this whole thing up.

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Speaker 3: You know, he had been enjoying his life and he

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Speaker 3: had a successful podcast and gave it all up, and

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Speaker 3: this is going to be President Trump's Iran contra. That

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Speaker 3: was what he said to several people watching this meeting.

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Speaker 3: Some folks were taken aback because Cissy Wilds is essentially

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Speaker 3: a standing for the president, and it was it was

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Speaker 3: really a very frontal attack. So that was that meeting,

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Speaker 3: but it really spoke to this divide molly within this

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Speaker 3: administration and how paralyzed they were by dealing with this

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Speaker 3: because the president did not want to talk about this.

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Speaker 3: He just wanted it all to go away. He was

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Speaker 3: snapping at everyone who who entered his orbit. We'd have

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Speaker 3: to be you know, clear, we don't know of any

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Speaker 3: There's nothing we learned in the course of our reporting

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Speaker 3: that would change our understanding of Donald Trump and Jeffrey Epstein.

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Speaker 3: But clearly they were friends for a long time. He

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Speaker 3: didn't want these documents out, and so that left his

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Speaker 3: staff with a series of terrible in their minds choices.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want you to talk. I just am curious

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Speaker 1: your opinion here, because you guys have so one of

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Speaker 1: the few people where you seem to have real insights

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Speaker 1: into what is actually going on, which I think goes

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Speaker 1: back to what you said before, which is one point

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Speaker 1: Trump one point zero. Things were constantly it was so lucky.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just such a difference. Then, why this

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Speaker 1: excerpt was so striking was because you had actual, like

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Speaker 1: you actually had insight into what happened in those rooms,

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Speaker 1: which we had not seen at all. So I want,

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious why you think that Patel decided to

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Speaker 1: stay and Bongino decided to go.

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Speaker 3: At that moment, a lot of the White House staff

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Speaker 3: expected that Bongino was going to quit. There were some

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Speaker 3: who wanted to fire him, and there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of upset about how he was speaking about all of

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Speaker 3: this in general. But the worry for people or in

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Speaker 3: the president was that it would hurt the president if

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Speaker 3: Bongino quit that, you know, if he walked off and

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Speaker 3: sort of was talking loudly. And he really hasn't or

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Speaker 3: hadn't anyway publicly until at least, you know, prior to

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Speaker 3: our book. I'm not sure if he has sense, but

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Speaker 3: that was the concern.

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Speaker 4: He did.

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Speaker 3: He stayed, you know, as we understand it, to be

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Speaker 3: a team player. He didn't want to hurt the president.

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Speaker 3: It's the same thing for Patel. I Vattel likes his job,

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Speaker 3: he likes being in this job and being thrown out

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Speaker 3: of the President's orbit at this moment, but particularly for

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Speaker 3: and Patel can be damaging in its own way. So

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Speaker 3: I think that is and also not only one thing.

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Speaker 3: I do think it's important in the book shows this.

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Speaker 3: The people around the president want to see him succeed.

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Speaker 3: They do, I mean, this is not trump one. They

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Speaker 3: hate democrats and the mainstream media much more than they

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Speaker 3: hate any individual. Things that are happening inside this administration,

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Speaker 3: and so it doesn't mean they agree with everything, but

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Speaker 3: it's not you know, to your point about term one,

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Speaker 3: where you know, to paraphrase Josh Dauci, you had to

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Speaker 3: be you know, absent eyes and ears to not get stories.

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Speaker 3: This is just very different, and this is part of

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Speaker 3: why it was so hard for us to get this

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Speaker 3: book done.

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Speaker 1: I want you to talk about what is the tension

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Speaker 1: between stakeholders that people don't see.

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Speaker 3: It's a really good question, and I think that we

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Speaker 3: do show what some of that attention is, you know,

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Speaker 3: among the least kept secrets, but the ones that we

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Speaker 3: animate a lot in this book with reporting is the

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Speaker 3: the disdain between Scott Bess and Howard Ludneck, which is

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Speaker 3: pretty remarkable. You do have again, it's it's it's levels, right,

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Speaker 3: So you have people there's it's not you know, Jared

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Speaker 3: Camp versus Steve Bannon, Camp versus Wright's prebus. You have

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Speaker 3: people who they all want to see him succeed. But

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Speaker 3: then there are people who believe that there are constraints

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Speaker 3: on power, on presidential power, and people who are much

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Speaker 3: less willing to see that.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 3: So, among the areas of division and tens are obviously

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Speaker 3: over immigration. That played out pretty clearly in Minnesota in

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Speaker 3: terms of the approach. Lots of people blamed Christinome. She

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Speaker 3: was not exactly well loved in the administration by a

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Speaker 3: number of people. But the reality is that even though

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Speaker 3: Stephen Miller did not want her was she was not

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Speaker 3: his choice. She was the choice of other people, including

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Speaker 3: some law enforcement groups, and she was Trump's choice. Her

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Speaker 3: agency still technically was overseen or at least in Stephen

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Speaker 3: Miller's purview, because he is a top policy advisor and

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Speaker 3: also just the main immigration person in Trump's world. But

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Speaker 3: immigration has been a has been a point of friction Pacific,

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Speaker 3: especially how they were dealing with these with these immigration sweeps.

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Speaker 3: You know, you've seen business leaders or people in San

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Speaker 3: Francisco complaining directly to the administration. Obviously there was the

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Speaker 3: fallout after after Alex Pretty and Renee Good were killed.

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Speaker 3: That's one exactly what to do about tariffs, there's more

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Speaker 3: unification around that that. How it was handled was, you know,

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Speaker 3: something Trump wanted to try, but not a coherent economic theory,

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Speaker 3: and it was not backed by many people other than

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Speaker 3: Peter Navarro, which is which is different than just not right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so in many.

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Speaker 3: Ways, Molly, it's the same areas that we've seen in

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Speaker 3: the past. It's just again it's but it's not you know,

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Speaker 3: free traders versus protectionists. It's just sort of shades, and

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Speaker 3: it's not black and white. It's it's it's a little

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Speaker 3: more nuanced.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think this administration is so much better

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Speaker 1: at keeping secrets than the first administration.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question, but they really are. And in

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Speaker 3: our experience, in our reporting, the answer is because these

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Speaker 3: a these are true believers in him. They really are.

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Speaker 3: I mean they and they were many of them radicalized

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Speaker 3: by the investigations into him by you know, Walt Nauda,

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Speaker 3: who is one of his top eights in the White House,

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Speaker 3: was indicted alongside him in the documents case. Other people

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Speaker 3: received subpoenas in either the Document's case or the classified

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Speaker 3: Documents case, or in the January sixth investigation, the twenty

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Speaker 3: twenty election investigation, the Special Council investigation. Many of them

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Speaker 3: were very upset about the Alvin Bragg case, you know,

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Speaker 3: the Letitia James Sibil fraud case. You know, she did

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Speaker 3: campaign in twenty eighteen on going after Donald Trump and

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Speaker 3: a lot of people around him. What she obviously has

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Speaker 3: a number of supporters who liked that message, but there

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Speaker 3: were there were other people who not only didn't like

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Speaker 3: that message, but who saw it as an unusual departure

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Speaker 3: from how campaigns for an Attorney General's office uh usually

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Speaker 3: work and so uh and very politically infused. So that's

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Speaker 3: that's a big thing. And again it goes back to

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Speaker 3: my point about you know who you hate and who

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Speaker 3: you don't hate. A lot of it is too. That's

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Speaker 3: been sort of interesting. Susie Wilds had, you know, put

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Speaker 3: together the most cohesive version of a White House that

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Speaker 3: he has had bar Nune. She had a lot of

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Speaker 3: said we write about this in the book, a lot

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Speaker 3: of staff who were very loyal to her, but it

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Speaker 3: was very loyal to Trump. And at a certain point,

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Speaker 3: while Trump will often say to various advisors that he

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Speaker 3: wants you know, he wants this, or he wants someone

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Speaker 3: running things effectively, he also wants to do what he

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Speaker 3: wants to do. And that's part of what we're we've

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Speaker 3: been we've been seeing happen now. And so what we

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Speaker 3: tried capturing in this was that if people want to

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Speaker 3: understand how their government works, not just sort of day

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Speaker 3: to day news stories. You know, among them was the

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Speaker 3: debate over Habeas Corpus and suspending rights there if people

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Speaker 3: want to understand it, we tried to help them do that.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that if Susie Wiles had stayed with

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Speaker 1: Ron DeSantis that Ron DeSantis would be president? Just your opinion, Like,

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Speaker 1: do you think she's such a big part of this story.

435
00:24:28,760 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 3: I think that two things are true. I think Ron

436
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 3: DeSantis went after Susie Wiles in a way that appalled

437
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 3: a lot of people in Florida politics who saw how

438
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:42,000
Speaker 3: she helped him with President Trump's buy in to salvage

439
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 3: his gubertorial campaign. And I think that Ronan DeSantis ran

440
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 3: a really bad presidential campaign and I'm not sure that

441
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 3: Susie Wiles could have changed that. And I think that

442
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 3: Donald Trump is a suey generous figure in our lifetime

443
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: politically and governmentally, who you know, by everyone we talked to,

444
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 3: was guided effectively by Susie Wiles. But I don't I

445
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 3: think even Susie Wiles could not make Ron de Santis

446
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 3: a viable primary top contender against Donald Trump.

447
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 1: Natalie Harp the human Printer, Right, there's a lot of

448
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: speculation that she is very close with Trump. Whatever that

449
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,520
Speaker 1: looks like, What is your sense of their relationship.

450
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 3: Natalie Harp is in almost every single White House meeting.

451
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 3: She is his most devoted aid. You know, she left

452
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 3: him these letters that we reported on for The New

453
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 3: York Times a while ago.

454
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 1: You know, the content of those were yeah, I mean one.

455
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 3: Of them was that you know something, the effective you

456
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 3: are all that matters to me. Secret Service. The Secret

457
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 3: Service was concerned about her during the campaign, or at

458
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 3: she raised their eyebrows, according are reporting. You know, the

459
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:50,639
Speaker 3: President's been pretty clear with people that you know that

460
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 3: he thinks everybody else will go on to make money

461
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 3: and that she'll never leave. And the president really likes

462
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 3: people who who won't leave, which is another theme that

463
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 3: we that we touch on.

464
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 1: Who stayed from Trump one point zho to Trump two

465
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 1: point oh and how have they fared? It's a good question.

466
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 3: Very few people stayed from one point oh to two

467
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 3: point zero. One of the things that we write about

468
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 3: is that, you know, many people have rewritten their own

469
00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: stories to be I was always with him, and that's

470
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: really not true for most people. It was an incredibly

471
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,639
Speaker 3: small group of people he brought Susie Wiles in early

472
00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,439
Speaker 3: twenty twenty one to take over what was a pretty

473
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 3: shapeless post presidency and post presidential life at that point.

474
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,159
Speaker 3: But it was. It was a handful of people. Stephen Miller,

475
00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 3: he wasn't working directly in the President's office the same way,

476
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 3: but he has never really been out of Trump's orbit,

477
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: and he had been preparing for a possible second Trump

478
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,000
Speaker 3: administration and presidency for a while. Again, we mentioned Susie Wiles.

479
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: They're not a ton of others. There was, you know,

480
00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 3: Margot Martin who still worked there, well, Nada who we

481
00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 3: mentioned before, A handful of other people who worked at

482
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 3: mar Alago. But yeah, Dan Scabino obviously, who's now White

483
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: House Deputy chief of Staff. He's one of Trump's oldest

484
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,119
Speaker 3: and longest serving aids. And I should actually I should

485
00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: include Stephen Shong, who has been with him for a

486
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 3: very long time. Caroline Levitt did work in the first

487
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 3: White House, although she was in a different and more

488
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 3: junior role. Jason Miller and Boris Epstein. I'm sorry, that's

489
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 3: actually a name that I should have mentioned before. Well,

490
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 3: Boris Epstein is really important to this story and the

491
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 3: story of sort of the efforts to try to dominate

492
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 3: the media, to try to dominate law firms. He's not

493
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 3: an official government employee. He he's not a government employee

494
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: at all. He is the president's top outside legal advisor,

495
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 3: and he has the president has become very effective, or

496
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 3: at least for a time, was at sort of an

497
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 3: inside government, outside government effort to try to push these industries.

498
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 1: Maggie, thank you, thank you, thank.

499
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 3: You, thank you, thank you for having megnet, Thanks for

500
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 3: talking about the book.

501
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: Barbara mccload is a former US attorney and the author

502
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: of The Fix, Save in the mar From the Corruption

503
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,880
Speaker 1: of a Mob Style Government. Welcome, Welcome, Barbara requptor, thanks Molly.

504
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 4: Great to be with you.

505
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 5: So let's talk about the facts Saving America from the

506
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 5: Corruption of a mob style government.

507
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: And it seems like the book for this moment, I think.

508
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 4: So. You know, one of the things that Trump's second

509
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 4: administration has appeared to me is to resemble some of

510
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,239
Speaker 4: the tactics I saw as a federal prosecutor, with the

511
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 4: tactics of organized crime figures, corrupt public officials, and frankly conment,

512
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 4: you know, utilizing levers of power to inflict pain on targets, rivals,

513
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 4: other centers of power in order to coerce them to

514
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 4: come to the table and negotiate their own punishment. We've

515
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,719
Speaker 4: seen them do it with law firms, universities, the media,

516
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 4: even foreign allies. And I want to label that and

517
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 4: name that because I think that's important before we can begin.

518
00:28:58,520 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: To solve it.

519
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, as a good example of the corruption and some

520
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 5: way in which, you know, a sort of smaller example

521
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 5: of the corruption in a way to fix it.

522
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 4: Well, I think you know, one of the strategies that

523
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:17,480
Speaker 4: we have seen President Trump use is to accuse people

524
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 4: of things that they either didn't do or that are

525
00:29:20,840 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 4: not the kinds of things that constitute criminal behavior, and

526
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 4: then try to use that to coerce people to give

527
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 4: up things of value.

528
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: You know.

529
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 4: I think about the law firms, for example, the executive

530
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 4: orders to law firms claiming that they had engaged in

531
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 4: illegal lawfare or weaponization simply by associating themselves with people

532
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 4: like Robert Mueller or Mark Elias, people who President Trump

533
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 4: saw as his rivals, and he punished them by saying,

534
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 4: you can't have security clearances, you can't have any of

535
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 4: your lawyers be hired by the government, and you can't

536
00:29:56,160 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 4: even enter a federal building, including courthouses. Lawyer, it's pretty

537
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 4: difficult to practice law if you can't go into a courthouse.

538
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 4: And we saw some law firms fight back, and those

539
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 4: who fought back prevailed, as of course they would, no surprise, right,

540
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,960
Speaker 4: these are plating violations of their first, fifth, and sixth

541
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 4: Amendment rights, no surprise. But what was so surprising to

542
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 4: me is that we saw eight or nine law firms

543
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 4: absolutely cave firms that seemed to me to have the

544
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 4: wherewithal to sustain a fight against the president and didn't

545
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 4: want to do that. You know, perhaps they were concerned

546
00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:31,280
Speaker 4: about their clients having good relationships with this administration. But

547
00:30:31,640 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 4: to me, you know, what I saw in my work

548
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 4: as a prosecutor is so often a victim with think

549
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 4: that I will pay off the extorter just this one

550
00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 4: time and then everything will be okay. I saw that

551
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 4: in you know, kickbacks to public officials who were corrupt.

552
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 4: They would pay, you know, they would be a demand

553
00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 4: for a kickback, they would pay them, and they would think, there,

554
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 4: I got the deal. But of course what that meant

555
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 4: is they would keep coming back for more. And we

556
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 4: certainly saw that, and people felt beholden that they had

557
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,400
Speaker 4: to because what they didn't realize is by making that

558
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 4: first payment, they were now controlled by the extorter, and

559
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 4: so they would keep coming back and demanding more and

560
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 4: more payments. I think these law firms think that they

561
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 4: got off easy by negotiating these deals for pro bono

562
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 4: legal services, but of course they now have been sidelined

563
00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 4: from taking on the president in other matters. In Trump's

564
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 4: first administration, it was big Law that was there at

565
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 4: the forefront, sending armies of associates to the airports to

566
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 4: help people who are victimized by Trump's travel band. You know,

567
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 4: this time around, they've been sidelined, and I think part

568
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 4: of it is because they acceeded to the president's demands

569
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 4: and they understand that if they don't, they will continue

570
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:45,640
Speaker 4: to be punished. You know, they can't really call for

571
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 4: help because to do so would be to admit their

572
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 4: own complicity. And this is a strategy I saw corrupt

573
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 4: public officials engaged in or organized crime enterprises. The goal

574
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 4: is to isolate individuals, to silence them, and to make

575
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 4: them feel owned and controlled and helpless. The response, of course,

576
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 4: is collective action to speak out to say I don't

577
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 4: have to take this, and I won't and to band together.

578
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,120
Speaker 4: That's why I think those other law firms that fought

579
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 4: back are in good stead. You know, what I'm seeing

580
00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,520
Speaker 4: from my law students is they don't want to go

581
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 4: work for these law firms loo caved. Those law firms

582
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 4: are losing a lot of their lawyers, and those lawyers

583
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 4: are going to the firms that fought back. If you

584
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 4: won't even fight for yourself, how can I, as a

585
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,239
Speaker 4: client expect you to fight for me? And so I

586
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,959
Speaker 4: think that some of those same lessons apply to what

587
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:37,480
Speaker 4: we're seeing.

588
00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 5: I wonder if you could talk about Brad Karp. Wasn't

589
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 5: that he the first partner of the first law firm

590
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 5: to make a deal, And part of that was he

591
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 5: was under a lot of pressure with the Abstein story

592
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 5: that his firm had had a lot of dealing with

593
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 5: Ebstein world via its relationships.

594
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: So can you talk about that?

595
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 4: Yes, So you know, when people themselves are compromised, they

596
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 4: tend to go down a path of compromise. It's why

597
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 4: we have security clearances that make sure everybody is completely

598
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 4: squeaky clean, because if someone is fearful that something in

599
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,120
Speaker 4: their past may be disclosed, it may be used as

600
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 4: leverage against them. Now. I don't know if that's what

601
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 4: happened with Brad Karp. He was the managing partner at

602
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,360
Speaker 4: the time this was negotiated. He comes from the transactional

603
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 4: side of the legal world, let not the litigation side,

604
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 4: and I think maybe they see things a little differently.

605
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 4: You know, everything's transactional, it's all about deals. Maybe he

606
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:37,680
Speaker 4: thought this was a great deal for his law firm.

607
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 4: All they had to give was some pro bono legal services,

608
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 4: which they were going to give away any way. But

609
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 4: I think that in the end, I think that they

610
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 4: will all regret it. You know, they lost Damian Williams,

611
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 4: the former US Attorney for the Southern District of New York,

612
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 4: a real plumb higher for them, who went over to

613
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 4: Wilmer Hail one of the firms that fought back, and

614
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 4: they lost a lot of others. It later came out,

615
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 4: of course, that Brad Karp was in the files, and

616
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 4: we'll never know. Was he hoping to stay in Trump's

617
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:08,640
Speaker 4: good graces, knowing that they controlled the disclosure of these files,

618
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 4: and wanting to protect his own reputation from that disclosure.

619
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 4: I don't know, but it's why the government is always

620
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 4: so concerned about people who have secrets. Secrets can be

621
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 4: used again as leverage against us.

622
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's a great example.

623
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 5: And then the billionaires are another great example of a

624
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,680
Speaker 5: group that really caved in a truly disgusting way. What

625
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 5: would you say the sort of way to push back

626
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 5: again something like that is, I.

627
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 4: Think the answer lies in collective action, Molly. One of

628
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 4: the things that I think people who are victims of crimes,

629
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,320
Speaker 4: you know, these folks are sort of I don't know

630
00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 4: sure they're really victims, Maybe they're more complicit actors. Is

631
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 4: collective action. When you feel like you're the only one,

632
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 4: it's easy to go along to get along because you

633
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 4: don't want to be isolated and singled out. But I

634
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,239
Speaker 4: think when people band together their strength in numbers. One

635
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 4: of the things we have seen following the indictment of

636
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 4: the Southern Poverty Law Center is the banding together of

637
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: nonprofit organizations. There's an organization that is a sort of

638
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 4: a NATO for nonprofits organized by Venita Gupta, former high

639
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 4: level DOJ official, And what they have said is once

640
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 4: they saw that President Trump was starting to investigate you know,

641
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,520
Speaker 4: George Soros and his foundation and others that there was

642
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 4: fear that they would be targeted next, and so they

643
00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,600
Speaker 4: banded together and made an agreement that they would engage

644
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 4: in collective defense. If one of us has attacked, all

645
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 4: of us are attacked, and we will band together. And

646
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 4: they did. After that indictment, they issued statements, strong statements,

647
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 4: and it's from all walks of life. You know, the

648
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 4: League of Women Voters is one of the groups. There

649
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 4: are faith groups in there who say, we won't stand

650
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,800
Speaker 4: for this. We stand together. We know that this president

651
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 4: is trying to divide us and trying to make accusations

652
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:54,920
Speaker 4: innocent until proven guilty, and we stand with our colleagues

653
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 4: at the Southern Poverty Law Center. I think that's a

654
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 4: much better way to respond then saying I'll cut my

655
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 4: own deal. That's like the prisoner's dilemma. I can get

656
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 4: out of this if I just do my own thing.

657
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 4: But ultimately that favors the person in power, the person

658
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,360
Speaker 4: who's inflicting the pain. I think that staying together, communicating

659
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 4: together at collective action is the way to defeat an extorterer.

660
00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: It's a really good point.

661
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 5: This administration, the idea that it's like an organized crime

662
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 5: ring seems really apt. What were the things that you

663
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 5: guys did when you were prosecuting organized crime that might

664
00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 5: be useful here in the last sort of two years

665
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 5: of Trump's presidency two and a half years.

666
00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 4: I think the most important thing is exposure. Criminal organizations

667
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 4: thrive on fear, intimidation, silence, and feeling like they can

668
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:50,000
Speaker 4: win out over someone else right over arrival. I think

669
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 4: exposing those things, speaking out people who are being targeted

670
00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 4: by the Trump administration, not accepting silence as an answer.

671
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:01,400
Speaker 4: I think those of us who have a voice, people

672
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 4: in the media, people like you, exposing the corruption is

673
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 4: really important, and I think the corruption is important part

674
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 4: of the message. People may not have a lot of

675
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 4: sympathy for law firms where people make a lot of money,

676
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 4: or universities or the media, but I think they do

677
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 4: understand the corruption. You know, when a president has his

678
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 4: own cryptocoin, when he's having dinners, when he's building a

679
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 4: lavish ballroom, when he is enriching himself and his family

680
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 4: while the rest of us are not doing well financially.

681
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 4: I think that's something that can resonate with the public,

682
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,439
Speaker 4: and so I think just exposing that corruption and using

683
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 4: our voices to point out how the rest of us

684
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 4: are being hurt by this. I think that is probably

685
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,680
Speaker 4: the best way to take down a mobster when he

686
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 4: takes high office.

687
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 5: There are so many things that Trump has done that

688
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 5: this administration has done that is sort of like undone

689
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:56,720
Speaker 5: norms and things that have been like the way we've

690
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,279
Speaker 5: done things, the way business has happened in America for

691
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 5: such a long time. Do you see a world where

692
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 5: we can put that genie back in the bottle?

693
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 4: I certainly hope so, but I don't know that it's

694
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 4: going to happen overnight. You know, the area I know

695
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 4: best and spend the most time thinking about and fretting

696
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 4: about is the Department of Justice. That is one that

697
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 4: has really relied on norms, especially since the post Watergate era,

698
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 4: where there have been some really important norms, one of

699
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 4: which is a ban on communications about specific cases between

700
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 4: the White House and the Justice Department. Certainly President Trump

701
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 4: doesn't abide by that. We saw that direct message or

702
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 4: whatever it was, to Panbondi demanding charges against Jim Comey,

703
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 4: Ltitia James and Adam Schiff. That was an important norm

704
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 4: there is one about never considering partisan politics in choosing

705
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 4: charge charges, and another one about not going to a

706
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 4: grand jury and seeking an indictment just because you think

707
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 4: you have the bare minimum amount of probable cause to

708
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 4: obtain an indictment. A prosecutor should seek an indictment only

709
00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 4: if they believe the evidence is sufficient to obtain pain

710
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 4: and sustain a conviction a trial. That means guilt beyond

711
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 4: a reasonable doubt, because before you put someone through the

712
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 4: burden of a trial, you should know that you've got

713
00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 4: a very strong likelihood of conviction of the other end.

714
00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 4: And instead, I think we see the Justice farming a

715
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 4: broad view six case that Jim came Seashell's case with

716
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 4: a false statement's case for that matter, you know, could

717
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 4: they just squeak out enough for probable cause to get

718
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,960
Speaker 4: an indictment. Maybe, And we've heard people like Ed Martin

719
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 4: and even Jim Blanche say name and shame is what

720
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 4: we're doing here, even if we can't get a conviction.

721
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 4: That is a norm that the Justice Department has you

722
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:34,120
Speaker 4: always abided by. You don't do it just to name

723
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 4: and shame. You only do it if you think the

724
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,400
Speaker 4: evidence is sufficient for a conviction. And to deter bad behavior,

725
00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 4: to p tet public safety, to hold people accountable. Those

726
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 4: are the reasons that you bring criminal cases. Can it

727
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 4: be restored, I think so, but I think it's going

728
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 4: to take a lot of effort. You know. One really

729
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 4: bold idea is to take the Justice Department and create

730
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 4: a fourth branch of government where it's completely insulated from politics.

731
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 4: We see separate attorneys general in the States. They're elected

732
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 4: separately from the governor. Maybe that's a possibility that requires

733
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 4: a constitutional amendment. So I don't know if we're going

734
00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 4: to get there, but I kind of like that idea.

735
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 4: But short of that, I still think there are things

736
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 4: that we can do. First, I would expect that any

737
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 4: president who is running campaigning for president must pledge to

738
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:20,560
Speaker 4: be completely independent from their Justice Department. I will choose

739
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 4: an attorney general and I will leave them alone. And

740
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 4: then I think the Attorney general needs to talk about

741
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 4: that publicly and frequently. I think every level US attorney's

742
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,400
Speaker 4: level need to talk about how we here in our

743
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 4: districts make our own independent decisions. We're not taking orders

744
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 4: from the White House about what we think the law

745
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 4: and the facts require. So I think there needs to

746
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 4: be almost a pr campaign to rebuild that public trust.

747
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: Can you give us a few next steps?

748
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 4: Yeah? So first, the book has lots of ideas, but

749
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:49,480
Speaker 4: I'll just give you a couple of them. With regard

750
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 4: to the legislative branch, I think we need to rethink

751
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 4: how we elect people because we've got too much extremism

752
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 4: in our Congress. It is no longer serving as the

753
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 4: kind of serious check on executive power that was envisioned

754
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 4: by the founding fathers. I think rank choice voting is

755
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 4: one way. I think ending jerrymandering, as we have done

756
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 4: in my home state of Michigan, where we have a

757
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:15,800
Speaker 4: citizen's independent committee that does redistricting. There's also a theory

758
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 4: of proportional representation, which would add members to the House

759
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 4: in an effort to having moderating effect. I think at

760
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 4: the Justice Department we ought to codify some of these norms.

761
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 4: I don't know that we can get by with a

762
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 4: legislative fix in light of the separation of powers, but

763
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 4: I think we could at least codify them into the

764
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 4: Code of Federal Regulations so that a future presidency cannot

765
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 4: erase them with one stroke of the pen. And in

766
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 4: the Judiciary I think we ought to move the US

767
00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 4: Marshal Service from the Justice Department in the executive branch

768
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 4: to the judicial branch, so that we have a law

769
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 4: enforcement agency to enforce court orders. If someone refuses to

770
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 4: obey a court order, a judge could hold them in

771
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 4: contempt and the marshals could lock them up hold them

772
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 4: in civil contempt until that person complies with the law.

773
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 4: And then let me just talk for a minute about

774
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 4: what we the people can do, because I think there's

775
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 4: so much and one of the goals of a mobster

776
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 4: or an authoritarian is to make people feel helpless and hopeless.

777
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 4: But I think there are things that we can do

778
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 4: to combat that. And as I said before, this idea

779
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 4: of collective action is so significant. There's a researcher named

780
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 4: Erica Chenowick who I cite in my book. She has

781
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 4: studied regime change in oppressive regimes all over the world,

782
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 4: and she has concluded that if only three point five

783
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 4: percent of the population bands together in a peaceful protest

784
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 4: against the leader, they can affect regime change. So no

785
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 4: King's marches. Those are really valuable. I know sometimes people say, well,

786
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 4: we're just preaching to the choir we're just doing this

787
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,359
Speaker 4: to feel good or excess, what the opponents of it say.

788
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 4: But it matters. Not only does it embolden the people

789
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 4: who are there and makes you feel like I'm not alone.

790
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 4: There are people who think like me and think what's

791
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 4: happening in our government is unacceptable. But also the people

792
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:02,680
Speaker 4: who may not have been paying attention or on the sidelines,

793
00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 4: they don't want to get up there for some reason.

794
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 4: When they see themselves reflected in those protesters, they are

795
00:43:07,840 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 4: more likely to change their mind as well. But other things,

796
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 4: we can vote, we can campaign, and we can join something,

797
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 4: you know, the League of Women Voters, Indivisible chapters. They

798
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 4: all have ways you can plug in and serve as

799
00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 4: a volunteer to help take back our democracy. But the

800
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 4: most important thing, Malli, is we can't forget we have

801
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 4: the power to affect this change.

802
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 1: Barbara McQuay, thank you, thank you, thank you, Thanks.

803
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:30,400
Speaker 4: A lot, Molli.

804
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: No Pt. Jesse Cannon, smile.

805
00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:40,600
Speaker 2: We have a very very troubling story from down in Texas.

806
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 2: In a sentence we know all too well. Anti ICE

807
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,880
Speaker 2: protesters have been convicted of terrorism charges and sentenced to

808
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 2: at least fifty years in prison.

809
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, a group of Texas protesters convicted of terrorism charges,

810
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 1: receiving hard sentences of at least fifty years in prison

811
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,319
Speaker 1: and a closely watched case that was seen as a

812
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:01,760
Speaker 1: test case for the Trump administration's efforts to crack down

813
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,799
Speaker 1: on descent. After a three week jury trial, the nine

814
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: activists were found guilty of a slew of criminal charges

815
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: in March, stemming from a fourth of July protests and

816
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 1: an immigration detention facility in Texas south of forth Worth.

817
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: The demonstrators arrived late at night with a plan to

818
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: set up fireworks as part of a noise demonstration to

819
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:25,799
Speaker 1: show solidarity with those detained inside. A few of the

820
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 1: protesters spontaneously broke off from the main group and vandalized

821
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: cars in the parking lot, a guard shack and slashed

822
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 1: the tires on a government van, and broken security camera.

823
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:39,839
Speaker 1: When the police officers arrived on the scene and drew

824
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:43,400
Speaker 1: his weapon, one of the activists fired in ar fifteen

825
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 1: from the woods, hitting the officer in the shoulder. The

826
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 1: officer survived, so they're sentenced to fifty years in prison.

827
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. This really reminds me of the protests.

828
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: Like the weather underground protests, doesn't it.

829
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I rewatched that document not long ago, and you know,

830
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 2: obviously this is far far, far less violent with hurtful outcomes, so.

831
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: Far right, but it is the same kind of punishment

832
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: going for them. Look, speech is protected, shooting guns against

833
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:21,120
Speaker 1: the you know, guards is not. Certainly, this is sounds

834
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 1: like a very harsh sentence that may or may not

835
00:45:24,640 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: be appropriate. I don't exactly know the whole story, but

836
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: it does seem like it's pretty crazy to have a

837
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:32,480
Speaker 1: sentence like that.

838
00:45:33,120 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: I one hundred percent agree.

839
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

840
00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday and Saturday to hear the best

841
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: minds and politics make sense of all this chaos. If

842
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,000
Speaker 1: you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a friend

843
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.