1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Well, Black Friday is on the way, and it's a 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: time when a lot of people have to face what 3 00:00:07,520 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: could be fairly called an addiction to shopping. And today's 4 00:00:12,680 --> 00:00:18,280 Speaker 1: episode is about addiction. All the way back in Guys, 5 00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: we were talking about addiction in a way that still 6 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: needs to be explored today. It's true, and it's something 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,200 Speaker 1: that we're seeing a lot of movement in um in 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: terms of the acceptance of psychedelics and various kinds of 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: treatments for depression and anxiety. And it's something that's still 10 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,559 Speaker 1: very much progressing and we're keeping an eye on. But 11 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: here's us talking about it and more of the early 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,879 Speaker 1: days from UFOs two, Ghosts and government cover ups. History 13 00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: is world with unexplained events. You can turn back now 14 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: or learn the stuff they don't want you to. Now. 15 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Little by little, I could begin to enjoy the unprecedented 16 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: colors and plays of shapes that persisted behind my closed eyes. 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: Kaleidoscopic fantastic images surged eaten on me, alternating variegated opening 18 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: and then closing themselves in circles and spirals, exploding in 19 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: colored fountains, rearranging and hybridizing themselves. The constant clocks Ben. 20 00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: Are you okay? Oh yeah, I'm fine. I'm actually just 21 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: reading a quotation from guy named Albert Hoffman. This comes 22 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: from April nineteenth, ninety three, a day that some of 23 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:44,800 Speaker 1: you out there will recognize for its importance. But who 24 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,680 Speaker 1: are you again? What are we doing? Oh? Yeah? This okay? 25 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: So we're in the podcast room. My name is Matt, 26 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: and then we're here with our super producer, Noel Owsley Brown, 27 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. Yes, 28 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: are you doing all right, Matt? Yeah, I'm fine, man, 29 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: everything's good in the neighborhood, right, yes, right, and just 30 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:11,800 Speaker 1: look a little paranoid, a little different. No, No, I'm fine. 31 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: I just want to talk about Albert Hoffman, right, Oh yeah, 32 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 1: it tell us about Albert Hoffman. So he's the guy 33 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: who is considered the person who discovered LSD as a 34 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: hallucinogen because he took a famous bike ride, right, he 35 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: accidentally spilled a little on himself. Yes, and took the 36 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: most astonishing bike ride in history up to that time, 37 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: probably since the invention of the penny farthing. This idea 38 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: of LSD as a hallucinogen was relatively new, but LSD 39 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: had been synthesized before and since that time, numerous people 40 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:50,880 Speaker 1: have claimed that LSD and other drugs called hallucinogens have 41 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: abilities far beyond those of the typical recreational drugs like 42 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: alcohol or marijuana. That's right, and there are lots of 43 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 1: weird stories that go along with LSD that kind of 44 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: create this, uh, this mythos of LSD. There's one that's 45 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 1: kind of a true story about Francis Crick. You may 46 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: have heard that name before, and how he quote discovered 47 00:03:14,040 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: the double helix shape of DNA that we're all familiar 48 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: with while he was on an acid trip. However, while 49 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 1: it is true that Crick and James Watson, along with 50 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,600 Speaker 1: Maurice Wilkins did work on d n A, they didn't 51 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: necessarily discover it right. The person who is the m 52 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:36,680 Speaker 1: v P of the DNA story there is a British 53 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: biophysicist named Rosalind Franklin. She photographed DNA, but she was 54 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: snubbed at the Nobel Prize ceremony. She also died for 55 00:03:44,920 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: years before it was awarded, And for those familiar with 56 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:51,160 Speaker 1: the Nobel Prize, you'll recall that they are not awarded posthumously. 57 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: But it sounds like Crick and Watson. Crick and Watson 58 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,800 Speaker 1: snubbed her. Make no mistake, Crick huge fan of l 59 00:03:59,920 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: s D. But that story in itself has uh grains 60 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: of things that are not entirely true. And if you 61 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: if you hear a lot of people talking about Krick, 62 00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,799 Speaker 1: make sure that you mentioned Roslyn Franklin as well. There is, however, 63 00:04:16,839 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: a story about LSD which is absolutely true. It's the 64 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: old tale you may have heard about once upon a 65 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,239 Speaker 1: time a professional baseball player here in the States being 66 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: just tripping balls high out of his mind, literally, yes, 67 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 1: and pitching a no hitter. And there have only been 68 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: I think maybe two hundred and forty seven no hitters 69 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: in the history of pro baseball. Yeah, not many, but 70 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 1: listeners right, And I'm sure our baseball fans will check 71 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,359 Speaker 1: me on this one because I can't remember where I 72 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: found that number. But how did this happen? Matt Well, 73 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 1: The gentleman's name is Doc Ellis, and there's a documentary 74 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: out on Netflix right now. You can watch called No No, 75 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: a documentary with spelled D O c K. It's pretty funny. 76 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: I actually watched it. This is one of my father 77 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,560 Speaker 1: in law's favorite stories. So Doc Ellis was kind of 78 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 1: known for uh doing some strange things while he was pitching, 79 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: like he was the Belushi of the Pirates. He really was. Um, 80 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: but yeah, when when he did this, he he he 81 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: said that time slowed down, right, the size of the 82 00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: ball would change while he was on the field. Um. 83 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: In the documentary, just he kind of makes light of it. Actually, 84 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, it wasn't even a really a big deal, right, 85 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: but it really did happen. And unfortunately, his drug uses 86 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: probably part of the reason that he did not go 87 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: on to continue his rise to fame. But that story 88 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,360 Speaker 1: is absolutely true, and there are other stories with varying 89 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: degrees of truth about the strange and at this point 90 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: still mysterious interaction that hallucinations can have with the human 91 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: beings brain. But there is one big question that comes 92 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 1: up time and time again and isn't encountering a resurgence 93 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: in popular culture today, and that is this, so can 94 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: hallucinogens Can these substances have some kind of curative effect 95 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: when dealing with things like addiction? Ah, yes, addiction. Yeah, 96 00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: it's an ugly topic, but let's let's talk about it 97 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: just for a little bit. For some people, addiction is 98 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 1: like a ghost to a skeptic. Right, It's something you 99 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:32,799 Speaker 1: might not necessarily believe in because you have not encountered 100 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 1: it yourself, But you still find yourself whistling, ever so 101 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: uncomfortably when you walk through a dark place at night. Right. 102 00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: For others, the term addiction conjures the image of someone 103 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: in their life, a friend, a relative, a love one 104 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 1: gone or on the way out, like a guttering candle. 105 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: For others, the word addiction invokes a shame, right, a 106 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: memory or a desire for substance, behavior, an action, or feeling. 107 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: But what is clinically speaking, what is an addiction? Right? Well, 108 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 1: clinically speaking, it's a primary chronic disease of brain reward. 109 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:17,480 Speaker 1: It's something like a motivation or a memory or some 110 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 1: kind of related circuitry in the brain that associates one 111 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: thing with pleasure usually right, And that is a very 112 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: important thing to note for our purposes today. An addiction 113 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: has a physiological observable, a process in the human body 114 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,680 Speaker 1: and effect. So of addiction there's a quotation or addiction 115 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:44,480 Speaker 1: affects neurotransmission and interactions within reward structures of the brain, 116 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: including the nucleus acumbans, the anterior singulate cortex, the basil forebrain, 117 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: the amygdala, such that motivational hierarchies are altered and addictive 118 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: behaviors supplant healthy self care related behavior. So what this 119 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 1: means is it's kind of a it's it's kind of 120 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: a detour if your brain is an inner state, which 121 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: is yeah, sure, it becomes the priority. You're gonna take 122 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 1: this exit every time, and all the rest of the 123 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: stuff on that highway doesn't matter, which could be everything 124 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: from eating, from getting your body nourishment to taking care 125 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: of responsibilities in your life. Yeah, and a lot of 126 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 1: those things you hear about with addiction, the priorities or 127 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: the the behaviors, right, A lot of that can be 128 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: traced to specific areas of the brain. Again, one thing 129 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 1: that is very difficult for a lot of people who 130 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,040 Speaker 1: are dealing with addiction or have whether it's their own 131 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: addiction or someone in their life. Right. One thing that 132 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: can be difficult to accept is that there is a 133 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 1: physiological basis. It's not just someone being a jerk. Right, yeah, yeah, 134 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: absolutely so. Um, we also know that this is a 135 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 1: widespread problem, right, we have statistics to back it up. 136 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, there are tons of statistics. This thing, addiction, 137 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: this whatever you want to call it. Uh, it is rampant. 138 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:13,520 Speaker 1: There are let's see, in the U s Alone, twenty 139 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: three million people over the age of twelve suffer some 140 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:21,120 Speaker 1: from some sort of addiction, either alcohol or drug related. 141 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 1: According to the w h OH, the World Health Organization, 142 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: the harmful use of alcohol alone results in three point 143 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: three million deaths each year. Despite the fact that less 144 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: than half of the global population drinks alcohol, so less 145 00:09:37,640 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: than half of the world drinks, there are still three 146 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: point three million deaths a year. Yeah, that's uh. When 147 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: we say less than half, we mean a little over 148 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: thirty eight percent, right, So it's still it's still more 149 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: than a third of the population. I think that statistics 150 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: tricky because how you phrase it. But yeah, three point 151 00:09:55,600 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: three million documented deaths at least that we we're not 152 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: certain at how why the methodology goes for that number. 153 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,240 Speaker 1: So for instance, it could just be counting uh, deaths 154 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 1: due to srotic livers. It could be counting deaths due 155 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: to drunk driving. It could and it doesn't necessarily mean addiction, 156 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: right right, Like it could be an overdose or a 157 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: car crash or something harmful use of alcohol is a 158 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,480 Speaker 1: specific phrase they used to but we we do know regardless. 159 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: Um oh, and I guess we should say here, Matt two, 160 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:35,360 Speaker 1: that addiction itself is not always something like alcoholism or 161 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,000 Speaker 1: opium or even caffeine or nicotine or some other drug. 162 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: It could be a behavioral thing that your brain has 163 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: latched onto. Right, And we we've seen these kinds of 164 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: addictions before, uh not in our personal lives, hopefully, But 165 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 1: addiction is real and it's dangerous worldwide. Again, we can 166 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 1: see the mechanisms of addiction leaving physical marks in the 167 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,640 Speaker 1: human brain. So given all of these, the financial and 168 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: the human cost of addiction on the world on a 169 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: global scale, all the way from petty crime to massive 170 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: illegal drug markets. Let's take a second, Hey, HSBC, look 171 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: at that. Some people still remember that you hang out 172 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: hardcore with drug cartels and you haven't gotten in trouble, 173 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: You haven't gotten in any serious trouble, but you you 174 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: run money for drug cartels. I'm sorry to interrupt. Well, 175 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: I think it's safe to say that some of the 176 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,960 Speaker 1: traditional programs, this the twelve step programs, they've been I 177 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: don't want to say debunked, because that's not true. They've 178 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: been shown to be a lot less effective than I 179 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: guess we had thought. Right, Yeah, that is that is 180 00:11:49,640 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 1: true because there are some difficulties grabbing numbers there. But 181 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 1: also at this point, research has shown that there are 182 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: several factors that may contribute to a better chance at 183 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,240 Speaker 1: rehabilitation from addiction, you know, like a support of community, 184 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:08,840 Speaker 1: of family, a sense of purpose, things like that. However, 185 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 1: there is no one size fits all solution at this point. 186 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: Absolutely not. Now, this is something that we kind of 187 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: want to look at that doesn't maybe it doesn't necessarily 188 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: pertain in this episode. I'm not sure. Let's let's let's 189 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 1: look into it and see what you think. Um, So, 190 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: do are there governments and corporations out there that don't 191 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: necessarily want people to be free from addiction? Okay, I see, Okay, 192 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: I think I see where you're going. Right, Yeah, I 193 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 1: think what I'm trying to say is money, Well yeah, money, 194 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,800 Speaker 1: but also also control. And this is this is a tangent, 195 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: it's a bit conspiratorial. But we do know that this 196 00:12:52,520 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 1: kind of encouragement of addiction has occurred at a state 197 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: level before. In the Opium Wars, right, the primary British 198 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,680 Speaker 1: export that they were pushing was opium, which can have 199 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: a horrendous effect on a population, right, and and it did, 200 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: and the Opium Wars were essentially an economic attempt to 201 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: establish you know, severenity over an independent civilization. Right. But 202 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: it's true, It's totally true the British were slinging opium 203 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 1: and encouraging addiction amongst these people. And arguably, especially if 204 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: you're Gary Webb, you would say that that occurred more 205 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: recently in the States, and while the British government was 206 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 1: profiting like gangbusters because they were just shipping opium out 207 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: like crazy, right yeah, yeah, yeah, Um, So there is 208 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: truth that drugs could be used to divide and control 209 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: of population in a more i guess, a more current stance. 210 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: Iran has all but openly accused Western powers of financing 211 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:06,600 Speaker 1: an illegal drug trade to destabilize the country, and crystal 212 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: meth is quickly replacing or quickly catching up to opium. 213 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: Is one of the most abused drugs. And another thing 214 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 1: we talked about in our episode on the DPRK was 215 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: their meth habits. Right, Yeah, there's also a massive rise 216 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: in the use of crystal meth there in DPRK or 217 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: North Korea, so we have to have that question present 218 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: when we ask ourselves about the nature of addiction and 219 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:34,920 Speaker 1: addiction treatment. We've seen a lot of studies, especially in 220 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: Western Europe, which is on the whole a little bit 221 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: more humane with its treatment of prisoners or people on 222 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 1: the wrong side of the law, And what they've found 223 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 1: is that they have more success when they have rehabilitation 224 00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: centers rather than I guess punitive measures at the forefront. Right. 225 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: But also, these are very different places, very from population, 226 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: So I'm not by a new means saying it's a 227 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 1: one to one comparison. Yeah, the enclosed culture is so different. 228 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: I would be interested to see how one of those 229 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: facilities would function in the US, right, Yeah, So where 230 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: do hallucinogens fit in with this? If we if we 231 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: go past the tangent, then we do really want to 232 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: hear what you think about it. If addiction is a 233 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 1: thing that can be fully found in the human brain, 234 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: a real thing, not an attitude, right, not an opinion, 235 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 1: but a a neurochemical, neurological thing, then where do hallucinogens 236 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: fit in with this? Right? Because hallucinogens are drugs, right, sure? Yeah, 237 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: I mean totally legally, definitely technically, So let's look at 238 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: the definition here, or just define some things before we 239 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: hop in. So, hallucination is a substance, such as a drug, 240 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: that causes people to see or sense things that are 241 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: not real. It's also a substance that causes the hallucinations. Now, 242 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: I know it sounds pretty simple, maybe a little too simple, 243 00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: but there are three common types of hallucinogens. Okay, there 244 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: are There are psychedelics, there are dissociatives, and there are deliriums. 245 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: So let's look at LSD, which we mentioned at the 246 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 1: very top with Albert Hoffman. It's a psychedelic like mescaline 247 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: or d m T, which we have an episode on. 248 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: If you're interested, check it out, it's in the video category. 249 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: Here's the thing, there's still quite a few questions about 250 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: what exactly LSD or mescaline or d MT due to 251 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: the human brain. While they could be classified as hallucinogens 252 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: together in a group, it doesn't mean that they are 253 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: the exact same. Thing We think that might it might 254 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: work is what's called a five H T two a 255 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: receptor agonist. But again, we think this basically means that 256 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: one of the mechanisms they see it doing is that 257 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:05,120 Speaker 1: it binds to serotonin receptors. However, pleasure centers right, yes, 258 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: serotonin the field goods uh, the scratches behind the ears 259 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: of your brain. However, Uh, there haven't been many, at 260 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: least publicized studies on neurological effects or processes of LSD experimentation, 261 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,600 Speaker 1: but it has been studied as a possible treatment for alcoholism. 262 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 1: And we'll have more on that in a second, because 263 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 1: that's not the only drug. We'll talk about too, Like 264 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 1: what's a disassociative. So dissociative is something like ketamine K 265 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,199 Speaker 1: special K special K, which confused me because you know 266 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: I'm square when I here. Uh have this is These 267 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: have been used experimentally to treat heroin addiction, or at 268 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 1: least there are attempts currently to try and make that work. 269 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: And deliriums that third thing. These are a little bit 270 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: less fun, but they're fascinating to talk about. You may 271 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 1: have heard about things like Ban Drake or Deadly Nightshade 272 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:01,920 Speaker 1: or Jimps and we you know the witchcraft stuff. I've 273 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: heard of some of that from my RPGs that I play, right, Yeah, yeah, 274 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 1: I'm sure you can collect Man Drake and a lot 275 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 1: of RPGs. So these plants contain a thing called atropine, 276 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: which is considered an essential medicine by the World's Health 277 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: Organization because as a variety of uses. However, if you 278 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: go to UM a website called arrowwood dot com, which 279 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: has it's like a user run thing about a user 280 00:18:28,640 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 1: run forum about drug use, people talk about their experiences, right, right, 281 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 1: And we're not in any way, of course, condoning the 282 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: use of something illegal, because if you use something illegal, 283 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:47,959 Speaker 1: then the consequences are probably going to outnumber the benefits, right, 284 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: It's true. But but on that site, I would say 285 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 1: it is it is maybe a helpful tool to see 286 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 1: some of the negative and positive experiences with drugs if 287 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,480 Speaker 1: you're trying to get an objective viewpoint sure of what 288 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 1: it is like to do that drug. Sure, I'm just 289 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: saying that if you're going to take an illegal drug 290 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,719 Speaker 1: because you think it will help you quit smoking or something, 291 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: that's that's that's a terrible reason to go to jail, 292 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: because I'm sure you'll go to a nons fucking jail 293 00:19:15,760 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: find a clinical trial. That's all I could say. So, 294 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: but this is this is the thing, these deliriums, right, 295 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,919 Speaker 1: this atropine. Most people, at least the people we found 296 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: on rowit and people who had talked about trying it 297 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: uh did not seem keen to repeat the experience. This 298 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 1: seems one of the more unpleasant drugs to do. But 299 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: if we put all of this together, it turns out 300 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: that this general group of drugs making neurochemical changes to 301 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 1: parts of the brain might also, as a side effect, 302 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: disrupt that cycle of reward and motivation, the engine powering addiction. 303 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: So we know that these different drugs have all been 304 00:19:54,040 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 1: used two hopefully to combat some form of addiction. Right, 305 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: that's right. And these substances, these these drugs, hallucinogens have 306 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 1: been they've been tested for quite a while, maybe maybe 307 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: not a long time. Well, you can go back through 308 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: history and you can look at some of the tribes 309 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: that use things like ayahuasca, and you can say hundreds 310 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,879 Speaker 1: of years, sometimes thousands of years. But if we go 311 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: back to the nineteen sixties, we can actually look at 312 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: colleges like Harvard who were who were conducting studies with hallucinogens. 313 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,520 Speaker 1: You can look at the Harvard psilocybin project. This was 314 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: um a study by Timothy Leary and Richard Albert, you 315 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: might recognize those names. It was done at the Department 316 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: of Psychology at Harvard from nineteen sixty to nineteen sixty three. Uh. 317 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: In these studies, psilocybin was administered to volunteer subjects. These 318 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: were mostly graduate students, a couple of times undergraduate students, 319 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,959 Speaker 1: and that's why the studies stopped in nineteen sixty three. UM. 320 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,239 Speaker 1: But the way they were studied, this is what they 321 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: would do, Ben. They would have these graduate students come 322 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: into their the place where they were testing, and both 323 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: the subject and the tester, the person who was supposedly 324 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: administering this thing, would take psilocybin and they would see 325 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: what happened to make recording of it. And that was 326 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,640 Speaker 1: the extent of their testing. That sounds a little bit 327 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: like just people hanging out and recording themselves doing drugs, right, 328 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: And that's what a lot of the faculty at the 329 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: at Harvard said, And that's ultimately I think why it 330 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: got shut down. But then those two guys Leary and 331 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: Albert Albert became rom Doss Timothy Leary. They both became 332 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: huge members of the counterculture with hallucinogens. Yeah, you're right, 333 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: turn on tune in drop out. I think that's the 334 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: way it went exactly. Then you've got a second one 335 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: at Harvard. Ben I'm just gonna mention really fast. I 336 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,880 Speaker 1: found pretty pretty funny. It was called the Good Friday Experiment. Now, 337 00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,240 Speaker 1: this one was actually a double blind test, unlike the 338 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,440 Speaker 1: Delirian Albert study, where there were there were twenty students 339 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,919 Speaker 1: who were given capsules. Each one is given a capsule. 340 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: Ten of them had psilocybin in them. Uh, I'm not 341 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,639 Speaker 1: sure about the dosage. It didn't say in the document 342 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: I was reading. But then the other ten had an 343 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: active placebo and nice cnic acid. It'll give you nice 344 00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:22,120 Speaker 1: and rush, so you feel like something's going on, but 345 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,280 Speaker 1: there's no hallucinogen. And nice and rush also used in scientology. 346 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: The it gets your skin hot, kind of itchy, and 347 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: you feel flushed. That's one of the big that's one 348 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 1: of the biggest, most obvious symptoms, but you definitely feel 349 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 1: like something's happening exactly. So what they did is they 350 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: have all all these twenty students went in, they took 351 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: their pill, and they went to a Good Friday service 352 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: at Harvard. This was done at Harvard University, but it 353 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: was at Boston University where they went to a Good 354 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: Friday service, and eight of the ten who received the 355 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: hallucinogen reported to quote mystical experiences. Though it is kind 356 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: of funny. One of the students apparently had to be 357 00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: restrained and given thorazine, which is an anti psychotic, after 358 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 1: he ran around, ran out of the chapel down the 359 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: street and proclaimed that he had to tell the whole 360 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: world about the new Messiah coming in. So that's one 361 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: of those stories that you would hear in the news 362 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: maybe about a drug like this. Yeah. And one thing 363 00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: that's what's fascinating there is that we see if you 364 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: check out studies like that UM and Leaving Alone, m 365 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: k Ultra and other Seattle experiments, because those those happened 366 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,800 Speaker 1: as well, and those those were not related to addiction 367 00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: as much as they were the possibility of controlling someone. Right. 368 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: But one thing that all of those studies show is 369 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,399 Speaker 1: that the usual patterns of the way your mind works. 370 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: If we go with the inner stated, the road system 371 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: UH starts to get teach wars, it gets chaotic. Traffic 372 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 1: is weird, you know what I mean? The same roads 373 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,320 Speaker 1: you drive every day don't lead you to the same 374 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: place cognitively, the whole road becomes hyperdimensional, right, and where 375 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,880 Speaker 1: are we? What? What is this thing asking we? Uh 376 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: So there's another study that that applies this, this iebo 377 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:26,119 Speaker 1: gain stuff, which has been used as a bark showed 378 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:30,199 Speaker 1: by various tribes I think, including people identifying as the 379 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: pygmy people. Uh. This this has been used as in 380 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: small amounts as a stimulant and larger amounts to encourage 381 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:42,280 Speaker 1: a mystical experience. In study called the Treatment of Acute 382 00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: opioid withdrawal with iebo gain found that it's a promising 383 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: tool for combating heroin addiction. And the study specifically argues, 384 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: and this is something that's weird to mean. The study 385 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: specifically argues that chemists should make a form of the 386 00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: drug divorced from the psychoactive feelings that yates that instead, uh, 387 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: this should be this should just function like methodone, right, 388 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:12,200 Speaker 1: like nothing own remove some of the pain of heroin withdrawal, 389 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 1: but doesn't get you high, if I understand, or it's 390 00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: similar to this is a thing that's happening here in Georgia. 391 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 1: It's similar to the Yeah, the politicians who want to 392 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 1: take a moral stance and they say, well, we're going 393 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: to make this thing purely as a medicine, and we 394 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: assure you, we can ensure you one thing. Definitely, it 395 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: is a medicine and it won't be something people will 396 00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: do for fun. And that's that's because you know, here 397 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,800 Speaker 1: in the States, there is this the state this country 398 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: is very very different to Portugal or some other place. Right. Uh, 399 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 1: there are punitive measures taken for drug abuse, and there 400 00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 1: is a very very strong argument that, uh, this attitude 401 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: is economically motivated, right, but so so I think that's weird. 402 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: But what they found in this Eyebo Gain study is 403 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: that it did work. It helped people get off heroin, 404 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: which is a tremendously difficult drug to to free oneself from, 405 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: and other studies indicate that it has been useful in 406 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 1: treating other other issues, not necessarily addiction issues, but other 407 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,320 Speaker 1: issues dating all the way back to n Yeah, the 408 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: CIA studied it in the fifties and one of the 409 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: one of the things that you'll read often is people 410 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: have even used it to get folks off of addiction 411 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: to crack cocaine. Yeah, I man, people aren't tremendously sure. 412 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:55,280 Speaker 1: How they estimate that there are maybe two two big 413 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: things that occur here. The first is metabolic, so ibocame 414 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: creates a protein that blocks receptors in the brain that 415 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: trigger those cravings. So it kind of nips withdrawal in 416 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: the bud because your brain doesn't recognize that at once 417 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: that itch scratched, right. Yeah, And here's the weird thing. 418 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: It tends to remove those withdrawals immediately, just like that, 419 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 1: bringing people back to their pre addiction stage and a 420 00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: normal rehabilitation. That journey can take months. The second effect 421 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: is much less clinical. It's where we verge into the 422 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: philosophical spiritual stuff, which is that a bocane seems to 423 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:38,919 Speaker 1: inspire a dream like state with intense introspection, so people, 424 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: you know, journey back through the matrix of their mind 425 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,919 Speaker 1: and find out, you know, they look at themselves from 426 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,600 Speaker 1: outside in. I guess that's one of the things that 427 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: I keep hearing as I was looking into this. It's 428 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:56,719 Speaker 1: that these psychedelics, more so than anything, give a wider perspective, 429 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: almost perspective outside of the ego of the person who 430 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: is going through addiction, and there they can finally look 431 00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,879 Speaker 1: at themselves and say, why the heck am I doing this? 432 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: At least that's that's that seems to be the common 433 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 1: thread that I've been reading throughout these studies. But IP again, 434 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: isn't the only thing that they've been testing, not just psilocybin, 435 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,400 Speaker 1: not just LSD. UM. If you look at ketamine, it's 436 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: been used in psychotherapy for heroin addiction as well. Uh, 437 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: it appears to have immediate effects. And also, um, they 438 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 1: I think there's a study where they did a two 439 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: year follow up already, So they looked at patients, um 440 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: who are who are using ketamine as a psychotherapy, and 441 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: they seem to be less likely to to relapse after 442 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: two years. They also seem to be less likely to 443 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: crave heroin, which is really nice, right. Yeah, And then 444 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: if we go back, I think we mentioned earlier this 445 00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: study on LSD and alcoholism to write in two thousand twelves, 446 00:28:56,280 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: some researchers Terry Krebs and Paul or John found that 447 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 1: they did a retrospective analysis. So what that means is 448 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: they took a bunch of existing studies from the sixties 449 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,160 Speaker 1: and the seventies, they put them all together. They ran 450 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: the numbers on the results across all of these studies, 451 00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: many by people who did not know one another. And 452 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: what they found is that fifty of people who took 453 00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 1: LSD in these studies who are alcoholics reported lower levels 454 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: of alcohol abuse compared to thirty eight percent of people 455 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: receiving a placebo. So there especially, and I know those 456 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: numbers might not sound super impressive if it were one study, 457 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: but across multiple studies spanning decades, that is a compelling point. 458 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: And these types of trials, it seems, are continuing, if anything, 459 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: experiencing a bit of a renaissance, which leads me to 460 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 1: a question, Matt, what why did this take solong? If 461 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: addiction is such a big problem, then why didn't doctors 462 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: and governments go down this route earlier? Well, because of Nixon, 463 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 1: Ben that's I'm just kidding, because not just because it's 464 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: because of things that were put in place during the 465 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 1: Knicks administration though about classifying Schedule one drugs with hallucinogens 466 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: other even marijuana. Uh, some of the uses of th 467 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 1: HC in high enough doses can be hallucinogens. And there 468 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,080 Speaker 1: are all these drugs that were placed under this restrictive 469 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: Schedule one tier. And uh, I think that's why because 470 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:31,080 Speaker 1: doctors nobody wants there there you know, prestigious university or 471 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: wherever you're going to be conducting studies to be you know, 472 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: using illegal substances, right, because Schedule one is bad business 473 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: here here in the US, drugs are classified according to 474 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: these groups that are for some reason called a schedule, 475 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: which has to be so confusing if you've never heard 476 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: of it. So they're like schedule to schedule three. Schedule 477 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: one is the worst of the bunch. No medical use, 478 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: no medicinal value. Yeah, what highly highly addictive, high likelihood 479 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:10,680 Speaker 1: of of health effects, right of of dilatorious effects on 480 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 1: your health. There's something I can't remember the exact wording, 481 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: but the biggest one is no medical use, right, there's 482 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,719 Speaker 1: no reason to prescribe it. And certain things have in 483 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: the past been missed, placed in that schedule or moved, 484 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: but it's very, very difficult, right to get that changed. 485 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 1: And of course there are conspiracy theories, especially if you 486 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: go back to the idea of control, several of which 487 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,960 Speaker 1: you can hear in our earlier shows. Yeah, we highly 488 00:31:39,000 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: recommend you check it out. What do we do? We did, um, 489 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: we did the marijuana conspiracy. We did a little bit 490 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: on it. I don't think we've done an audio show 491 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: on it. No, there are special and d MT just 492 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: about whether or not there's a whole another realm that 493 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: you can access through that drug. And why so many 494 00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: people taking d m T tend to report the same 495 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 1: or very similar experiences energy beings or the gnomes, the 496 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: machine els or the spirit machines. But again then and 497 00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: I would just like to say, we are not encouraging 498 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: anyone to go out and do these things legally. Yeah, 499 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: consult your doctor, don't do it illegally. It's not. It 500 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: just seems so ironic and terrible and unfair, I know, 501 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: for someone who has a problem that they feel might 502 00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: be helped, you know, uh, and then find themselves in 503 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 1: jail or even prison for attempting to do it. And 504 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 1: unfortunately that is that is a possible consequence. Also, Matt, 505 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: neither of us are doctors. Um No, I don't think 506 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 1: you're a doctor. No, is more of a doctor of love, 507 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: you know. But so we we know that other people 508 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: have experimented with this. Let's talk about Bill Wilson, one 509 00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: of the founders of Alcoholics Anonymous. He tried LSD in 510 00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: a study and it inspired him, in part to start 511 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: Alcoholics Anonymous, and he even told other members of the 512 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: organization to try it out. But however, the fellowship at 513 00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,560 Speaker 1: large disagreed because and I see how this is, this 514 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,880 Speaker 1: is a valid point to them, They said, the the 515 00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,920 Speaker 1: idea of treating those who cannot control their substance use 516 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: with another substance seemed then is now heretical. Uh. The 517 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: link between spirituality and sobriety, however, remains a mainstay of 518 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: the modern a recovery thing. Which is interesting because Bill 519 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,200 Speaker 1: Wilson said that he had a mystic experience, like a 520 00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: spiritual experience, and that story comes to us by a 521 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: writer named Kelly board Debt writing for The Fix. So 522 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: if we look at that, the politics of alcoholics anonymous, 523 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 1: or at least that's the opinion that piece may have 524 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: held back some progress on LSD. Now that's a very 525 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: small part of it, of course, because as you said, 526 00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: the seventies, the the scheduling of stuff is really what 527 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: was a hindrance to this kind of research. But these 528 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: aren't the only things holding back these studies. Let's look 529 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,440 Speaker 1: an example. Dr John Halpern. He's the head of the 530 00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: Laboratory for Integrative Psychiatry at the McLean Hospital. He's running 531 00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: an m d M A cancer study. Well, he told 532 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 1: The New York Times, quote, what drug company is going 533 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: to invest millions in a substance widely available in our 534 00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: flora and fauna? Government regulations are predictively tight. Also, stigma 535 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: looms large for those interested scientists. Okay, so that sounds 536 00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,399 Speaker 1: like there are a couple of different things going on there. 537 00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,040 Speaker 1: One it's there. This seems like there's not much of 538 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 1: a financial incentive, especially if something's already on a schedule, 539 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: to to pay for it. Yeah, because you can go 540 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 1: out and pick it, is what this guy is saying. 541 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,320 Speaker 1: Why would you pay for it when you can walk outside? 542 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,960 Speaker 1: Why would you monetize Ahaska or something? Right? Uh? And 543 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 1: then or what would be the use? And then it 544 00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: also sounds like the straight government regulations up the price 545 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,480 Speaker 1: tag even more. The stigma part is interesting to me 546 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,839 Speaker 1: because academic stigma is such a big deal, and more 547 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: so than people know outside of the Ivory Tower. It's 548 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: chilling to wonder how many legitimate things have been shut 549 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: down because they didn't fit with the current orthodoxy of 550 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 1: a given discipline, or we're just chosen not to even 551 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,240 Speaker 1: be be looked into by someone because they were afraid 552 00:35:27,239 --> 00:35:30,239 Speaker 1: of that stigma. And but there's another reason here too, 553 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: and I think that's a great point. You don't want 554 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: to risk your career for something that ends up being malarkey. Right. 555 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: There is another point here though, that is exciting dangerous territory. 556 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: We we mean, the human species, don't know a lot 557 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,840 Speaker 1: about how many of these drugs work. I mean, m 558 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: d m A doesn't just show promise for cancer, it 559 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:55,200 Speaker 1: shows promise for uh post traumatic stress disorder treatment. Right, 560 00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:57,719 Speaker 1: But like the rest of these drugs, it has side 561 00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 1: effects that we have yet to comprehend. And the analogy 562 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: it makes me think of is it might be the 563 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,839 Speaker 1: equivalent of trying to shave with a chainsaw. I mean, 564 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 1: you're gonna you're gonna get the hair off, but what 565 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:16,680 Speaker 1: else will you lose in the process? Or So, if 566 00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:18,800 Speaker 1: you want to learn more about all of this stuff, 567 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: there are a lot of places you can go. One 568 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: of them is MAPS dot org. That's the Multidisciplinary Association 569 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:31,239 Speaker 1: for Psychedelic Studies again, that's MAPS, m APS dot org. Yes, 570 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,320 Speaker 1: and we have a question for you as well, listeners, 571 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,799 Speaker 1: do you think this research has been actively suppressed? We 572 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: hear this sometimes in stories that relate to uh, you know, 573 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 1: the the idea of cure for HIV or a cure 574 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,280 Speaker 1: for cancer. Is there is there a silver bullet cure 575 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: for addiction that was being suppressed? And if so, why 576 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: we know there's a stigma for scientists. We know, you know, Matt, 577 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,520 Speaker 1: as you said that the anti drug culture of the 578 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: seventies in this in the West, at least in the States, 579 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: how all this back. But as that changes, are we 580 00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:05,600 Speaker 1: going to see more stuff? Or because we want to 581 00:37:05,600 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: be fair to the other side, Matt, or is this 582 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,480 Speaker 1: a bunch of bunk by people who want to get 583 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:14,839 Speaker 1: paid to trip acid? Right? But before we move on, 584 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,200 Speaker 1: let's make an important point here. We want to make 585 00:37:17,239 --> 00:37:21,680 Speaker 1: this abundantly clear. While we might be joking around about 586 00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: some aspects of this kind of stuff, we are by 587 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:31,440 Speaker 1: no means cavalier about the horrors of addiction. Statistically speaking, 588 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 1: it is quite possible that someone listening to this show 589 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: right now has some sort of relationship with an addiction, 590 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:43,640 Speaker 1: whether it's your own addiction, whether it's the addiction of 591 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: someone else you know, right, And this is a disease. 592 00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: This is not again, this is not someone just being crappy. 593 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: You know what, I mean, there there is a there's 594 00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 1: a reason for this, there's a physiological reason. This is 595 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: not an attitude. And the best thing that we can do, 596 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: we again being the human species, of course, is to 597 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: attempt to help anyone in that kind of situation and 598 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: find new ways to treat it right. And if you 599 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 1: yourself need some sort of you know, you need some 600 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 1: sort of help, don't know what to do, then, now, 601 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,960 Speaker 1: more than ever, although I hate to steal that line, 602 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,799 Speaker 1: it is possible to find help. So please. I know 603 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: it's probably a corny cliche thing that people say, but 604 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 1: a lot of corny and cliche things are corny and 605 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 1: cliche because they are true. Please, it is easy, now, 606 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: easier now than ever, to to find some sort of 607 00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,040 Speaker 1: light in the darkness. With that in mind, and I 608 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 1: pardon the soapbox, what do you think about doing some 609 00:38:51,680 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: listener mail? Absolutely, Ben, I've got one right here. And 610 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: this is kind of a long one listeners, So Ben 611 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,480 Speaker 1: and I are going to switch back and forth and 612 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: uh tell you all about it. This is a message 613 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,360 Speaker 1: from Dan, and Dan says, hey, there, I'm a longtime 614 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,720 Speaker 1: fan of how stuff works, but I've only recently started 615 00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,080 Speaker 1: listening to your particular podcast. I've listened to s Y 616 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:21,799 Speaker 1: s K that stuff you should know right back from 617 00:39:21,840 --> 00:39:24,680 Speaker 1: two thousand eight, back when I was but a wee 618 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,240 Speaker 1: lad of fourteen, but I've rarely felt motivated to contact 619 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:30,959 Speaker 1: Josh and Chuck. Well, hey, you should contact them, dude. 620 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,839 Speaker 1: They'll probably listen to you. They're pretty kill, especially after 621 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 1: the move over towards antisocial media. Your show. However, I've 622 00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: only just discovered suffice it to say that I haven't 623 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: been seen without ear phones on since then, and with 624 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,640 Speaker 1: a myriad of other videos left to check out, I've 625 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 1: been info binging and we uh, We're gonna go through 626 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: parts of this story here, Dan so Dan said from 627 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 1: a very young age, I've always just been so into learning, 628 00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: learning about any thing I could, discovering at first how 629 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,520 Speaker 1: stuff works, then later stuff you should gave me plenty 630 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:07,000 Speaker 1: and plenty to think about. And I certainly got into thinking, 631 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: but as anyone who knows me knows, with me, there's 632 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,600 Speaker 1: always been a yearning for something more than just thinking. 633 00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: I got it first into psychedelics, then deeply into philosophy. 634 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: I studied philosophy of religion, uh, biology, chemistry, geography, critical 635 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: thinking at a level which, from what I can guess, 636 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,400 Speaker 1: is sort of like high school for you guys. It 637 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: was at college where I first discovered critical thinking, which 638 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,560 Speaker 1: leads me back to the point of my email. And 639 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 1: then he goes on to summarize just a little bit 640 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:38,239 Speaker 1: about how he passes A levels, got into a good university, 641 00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: and he realized that he didn't just like learning and 642 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,000 Speaker 1: something was missing right because he wanted to study, uh, 643 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 1: something other than philosophy. But then he decided he needed 644 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: to study philosophy, so he went to the department and 645 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: asked them if he could study and their apartment. To 646 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: my delight, they said that I'd impressed them so much 647 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: in their interview that they'd love to have me as 648 00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,040 Speaker 1: a student there in their faculty, but I'd have to 649 00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: wait until the next year because there's no way I'd 650 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: be able to catch up on what I'd already missed. 651 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 1: I was devastated. Before long, everything hit the fan. It 652 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: went down the pan, out the window, to the dogs, 653 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: and spread around in a few other areas. The fan 654 00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,799 Speaker 1: was powerful. It got very messy. I won't go into 655 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: the details, because I could write you ten emails about why, what, who, where? 656 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: But I found myself with a pretty bad heroin addiction, 657 00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,439 Speaker 1: and I'll summarize a little bit here. Uh. He ended 658 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: up eventually dropping out of university, and he decided to 659 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 1: go to rehabilitation, and he had a lot of help 660 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,799 Speaker 1: from his parents or pushing on that, and he was 661 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 1: relatively isolated, and in this time he began focusing on 662 00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,920 Speaker 1: what he was hearing and remembering lots of stuff he'd 663 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: forgotten in his addiction. I'll pick it up here, remembering 664 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,839 Speaker 1: back the philosophy and book such as Manufacturing Consent by 665 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: Noam Chomsky, the No Logo by Naomi Klein, as well 666 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: as Existentialist and to Stop You in literature like Nausea 667 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,839 Speaker 1: by Sartre, Fear and Trembling by Kurky, Guard Human, All 668 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: Too Human by Nietzsche, and of course Brave New World 669 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: in n And He says, after leaving rehab and after 670 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 1: many relapses right up until basically the time I found 671 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,759 Speaker 1: your podcast a few weeks ago, I find myself now 672 00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:27,680 Speaker 1: writing this email, remembering back to my A levels and 673 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:30,880 Speaker 1: thinking myself how critical thinking classes were an odd thing 674 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 1: to find back then. This is why I am emailing you. 675 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,600 Speaker 1: I am writing to thank you for confronting me with 676 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: the power of critical thinking and helping me to remember 677 00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: why I was so fascinated with knowledge to begin with. 678 00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,360 Speaker 1: And Dan goes on to say, thinking in itself is 679 00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: half of my problem. I over analyzed and overthink to 680 00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,280 Speaker 1: the point that I have no firm ground to establish 681 00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: myself upon. But in discovering your podcast, I've learned some 682 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,800 Speaker 1: new things, been reminded of a lot I've learned before, 683 00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: but most importantly, been inspired to go out and learn more. 684 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 1: I know I have the power to shape my life 685 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 1: with knowledge, thoughts, and ideas, but I had forgotten. I 686 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,319 Speaker 1: don't want you to feel responsible in case I trip 687 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:13,040 Speaker 1: up again, But it is in this reignition of my 688 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,799 Speaker 1: passions I'm able to say no to heroin once more. 689 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: This time, five or six weeks ago, I was laying 690 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: in a squat injecting any vein I could find, with 691 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,320 Speaker 1: no friends, no family, no values, morals or any hope, 692 00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,000 Speaker 1: just an iPod. And today I stim proud saying that, 693 00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:30,320 Speaker 1: even though it's early days again, I found the courage 694 00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,920 Speaker 1: to pick myself up off the floor yet again. It 695 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:35,239 Speaker 1: doesn't matter if you fall over as long as you 696 00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,959 Speaker 1: can stand up afterwards. You know, Dan, we we can't 697 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,160 Speaker 1: read the whole letter, and they're probably parts that we 698 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,920 Speaker 1: shouldn't read, but uh, this this is uh, this is 699 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 1: a powerful thing, and we I I know that I 700 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: can say. I can't I can't speak for everybody on 701 00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: the show, but I can definitely say that keep going, man. 702 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,960 Speaker 1: I hope that when you hear this this this is 703 00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:02,640 Speaker 1: a few months souls now, but I hope when you 704 00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 1: hear this episode that you're able to, you know, lift 705 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:11,759 Speaker 1: your chin up and think about the amazing role you're on, 706 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,920 Speaker 1: the amazing streak. Yeah, yeah, keep keep going strong, Dan. 707 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:17,600 Speaker 1: I think maybe you give Ben and Ben and I 708 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: a little too much credit there for sure, but we 709 00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,640 Speaker 1: are certainly glad that you appreciate what we're doing. What 710 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:26,879 Speaker 1: we're doing here, and we appreciate the effort that you're 711 00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 1: putting in every day. So keep going, man, and uh, 712 00:44:30,200 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: we'll be here. So keep listening. We hope we'll be here, yes, uh. 713 00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:38,319 Speaker 1: But and also for for anybody else listening, again, there 714 00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:42,000 Speaker 1: are there, There is light at the end of the tunnel, 715 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:47,200 Speaker 1: and we hope that you have enjoyed this episode despite that, 716 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: this is despite it being a very heavy subject um, 717 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,160 Speaker 1: and we will keep you updated as we learn more 718 00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:59,320 Speaker 1: about the legal status of hallucinogens used to treat addiction 719 00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:02,040 Speaker 1: and the upcoming studies, because there are a lot that 720 00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,720 Speaker 1: are still out there. The one thing I'm super hooked 721 00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: on is caffeine, and I haven't found any study about that. 722 00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:10,719 Speaker 1: You and me both, buddy, You and me both, and 723 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 1: probably most people actually want to look around. I don't 724 00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 1: know how many people. I don't think there are many 725 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 1: that aren't addicted to caffeine here. I don't know how 726 00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,840 Speaker 1: we would do this job without it. Yeah, yeah, you know, 727 00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 1: it's strange. Oh. One. One thing for anybody who is 728 00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:29,799 Speaker 1: contemplating twitting caffeine, uh you know, I guess. Do do 729 00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:33,000 Speaker 1: what you will, but do be careful. If you get 730 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,560 Speaker 1: the caffeine headaches and you take a pain reliever to 731 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 1: stop those headaches, check the pain reliever first, because a 732 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,400 Speaker 1: lot of them contain caffeine as well, and those caffeine 733 00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:45,880 Speaker 1: headaches are real. I have tried a couple of times 734 00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,120 Speaker 1: to stop, and man, I get splitting headaches when I 735 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 1: don't have enough. That's terrifying. So anyway, wait, what what 736 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:59,080 Speaker 1: is that noise? I'm not sure, but I think it 737 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,319 Speaker 1: means it's him for our movement with nom Hey nel, 738 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:04,799 Speaker 1: how's it going, man? It's going okay, how are you? 739 00:46:05,040 --> 00:46:07,880 Speaker 1: We're doing all right? Pretty pretty heavy subject here today. 740 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,880 Speaker 1: But but there's there's an inspiring thing or possible good news. 741 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,759 Speaker 1: You know, if we have if we have this ability 742 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,239 Speaker 1: being civilization, not the three of us, but if we 743 00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 1: have this ability to help people out of an addiction, 744 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:27,279 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's food for thought for sure. What 745 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,080 Speaker 1: do you think? Yeah, I mean one thing that occurred 746 00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: to me when you guys were talking about alternatives for 747 00:46:32,280 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: treating serious addictions like like heroin and opiate addiction. Um, 748 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: how you know there aren't a ton of inroads being 749 00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:42,400 Speaker 1: made to alternatives and things like a methodone And it 750 00:46:42,480 --> 00:46:44,480 Speaker 1: kind of got me thinking about this documentary I saw 751 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,760 Speaker 1: years ago called Methodonia that's sort of about like how 752 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: many methodone clinics are privately owned and almost treated like 753 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: franchises like of a McDonald's or something, And so there's 754 00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 1: a lot of profit, there's a lot of money to 755 00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: be made in that kind of treatment. And you know, 756 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 1: to your point of like, well, are are they really 757 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:03,600 Speaker 1: trying to get people off at are they just substituting 758 00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,680 Speaker 1: one addiction? For another and a lot of people that 759 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,400 Speaker 1: that take methodon end up taking it, you know, for 760 00:47:08,440 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 1: the rest of their lives, are for a very plent time. 761 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:12,920 Speaker 1: And it kind of got me doing a little Internet 762 00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:15,640 Speaker 1: rabbit holing. And I found this article from the Boston 763 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:18,839 Speaker 1: Globe from last year about how this private equity firm 764 00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: Bank Capital spent seven hundred million dollars acquiring a chain 765 00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: of methodone clinics in the Boston area. And it just 766 00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 1: I mean not to say that because someone's making a 767 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,600 Speaker 1: profit on something that means necessarily an insidious thing, but 768 00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:32,640 Speaker 1: it just does kind of get you thinking, especially when 769 00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:36,040 Speaker 1: there are you know, more natural alternative they did not 770 00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:40,080 Speaker 1: know that they were privatized. Yeah, it's a mix, but 771 00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: I mean there's definitely a large, a large contingent of 772 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:46,480 Speaker 1: private Methodonic clints. Well, I guess from a business perspective, 773 00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:49,400 Speaker 1: it sounds terrifying to say it, but from a business perspective, 774 00:47:49,440 --> 00:47:55,440 Speaker 1: there is a built in demand. Yeah, no, this might 775 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:58,120 Speaker 1: be one of the uh, this is the worst moment 776 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:03,320 Speaker 1: we've had with you. You got me internet rabbit holing. 777 00:48:03,320 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: But while I was doing that, I did receive a 778 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,000 Speaker 1: call saying that I want a free trip to the Bahamas, 779 00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: so I may not be back next week to have 780 00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,279 Speaker 1: another one of these downer moments. Oh man, wait, wait, 781 00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,160 Speaker 1: don't don't leave us. It's a bitter sweet don't know. Man, 782 00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:19,640 Speaker 1: you can skype. You can skype, man, we can skype 783 00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:23,560 Speaker 1: in our producer. Yeah, let's try it. We're on the 784 00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,919 Speaker 1: we're on the forefront. I am going to check out that. 785 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 1: I'm going to check out that issue about privatization of 786 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 1: methodone clinics. And also no no offense to know. But 787 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:38,840 Speaker 1: I hope that if you do go on a cruise, 788 00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,160 Speaker 1: it's it's not too long, because you know you're part 789 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,640 Speaker 1: of the show, right yeah, or just take us with you, right, 790 00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,080 Speaker 1: or take us with you right, and listeners, you are 791 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,000 Speaker 1: also part of the show. In our opinion, the best 792 00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,840 Speaker 1: part of the show. So I think it's wrong for 793 00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: us to say we hope you enjoyed this podcast as 794 00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,960 Speaker 1: much as we enjoyed making it. But we do hope 795 00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,799 Speaker 1: that this piqued your interest and that you found, um, 796 00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:04,759 Speaker 1: you found something worthwhile or something you want to look 797 00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,719 Speaker 1: into more. We'd like to hear from you. You can 798 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook and Twitter, and we have a website. Stuff. 799 00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:16,880 Speaker 1: They Don't Want you to Know dot com. Yeah, uh, 800 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,080 Speaker 1: it's all about the journey. When you're typing I guess 801 00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: I know. On that website you can see everything that 802 00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:25,239 Speaker 1: we have ever done, and that's the end of this 803 00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,560 Speaker 1: classic episode. If you have any thoughts or questions about 804 00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,520 Speaker 1: this episode, you can get into contact with us in 805 00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:34,719 Speaker 1: a number of different ways. One of the best is 806 00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:36,799 Speaker 1: to give us a call. Our number is one eight 807 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 1: three three st d w y t K. If you 808 00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,200 Speaker 1: don't want to do that, you can send us a 809 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: good old fashioned email. We are conspiracy at I heart 810 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:49,200 Speaker 1: radio dot com. Stuff they Don't Want You to Know 811 00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,400 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts 812 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,680 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 813 00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,600 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.