1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,760 Speaker 1: Do you know another parent or expecting parent. Are you 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: wondering what can I give them as a gift. Don't 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: give them another onesie. Don't give them a plastic toy 4 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,319 Speaker 1: or god forbid, a toy gun that's just going to 5 00:00:13,480 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: end up in the garage. Give them something that matters, 6 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: and what matters the most is protecting their child. What 7 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: do you love most in the world your children? What 8 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:27,120 Speaker 1: will you do to protect them anything. I sat down 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:31,240 Speaker 1: with these smartest people I know in the world on 10 00:00:31,280 --> 00:00:36,040 Speaker 1: matters of child's safety, finding missing children, fighting back against predators, 11 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: and what I learned is so important, powerful and information 12 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: so critical. I want you to have it. I want 13 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: them to have it. Go to crimestops here dot com 14 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,199 Speaker 1: for a five part series with action information that you 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,840 Speaker 1: can use to change your life and protect your child. 16 00:00:55,200 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: Give that as a gift, not another onesie. Find out 17 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: how to protect your child when you're out of the 18 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: mall or the store, or the grocery, in the parking 19 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: lot at home. Find out about protection regarding babysitters, in daycare, 20 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: even online. I'd rather have that any day of the 21 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,880 Speaker 1: week than a plastic toy or god forbid, a toy gun. 22 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 1: Join Justice Nation. Go to crime stops here dot com 23 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. But first this crime online 24 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,280 Speaker 1: news update. I'm Robert Wilenski. You don't want a child, 25 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: don't I have him? And if you caught him and 26 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: you don't want him, give him up. Don't do it 27 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: this way, this wrong. Neighbor's stunned to learn a father, 28 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: a former Walmart Santa Claus under arrest in Georgia after 29 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 1: the bodies of his two children found buried in his 30 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: backyard of his house. The kids never reported missing, gets 31 00:01:54,760 --> 00:01:58,240 Speaker 1: the lord's work. Elwen Crocker Senior, now fifty years old, 32 00:01:58,400 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: arrested after sheriff's deputy He's go to his house in Guiton, Georgia, 33 00:02:01,960 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: a suburb of Savannah, to conduct a welfare check on 34 00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:09,079 Speaker 1: his fourteen year old daughter, Mary Crocker. After questioning Crocker, 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,799 Speaker 1: he apparently directs deputies to an area of his backyard, 36 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 1: where investigators find the bodies of Mary and her brother Elwyn, 37 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: who's been missing for two years. I've been doing this 38 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: forty one years and while ago Alms broke down in tears, 39 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: you're listening to longtime Effingham County sheriff Jimmy McDuffie at 40 00:02:27,680 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: a news conference, just distraught over detectives finding the two bodies. 41 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: Does that mean I just I cannot understand how you 42 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 1: do children with this horrible Now, police getting a tip 43 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: during a nine one one call saying Mary Crocker hadn't 44 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 1: been seen since October, and the tipster telling the nine 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: one one operator she believes the girl is dead. More 46 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: now from ABC thirteen. A tip is what led investigators 47 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,760 Speaker 1: to this home, one Rosebud Place. They were told fourteen 48 00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: year old Mary Crocker was missing and believed to be dead. 49 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: She hadn't been since October. Investigators questioned everyone inside the home. 50 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: Deputies say the family lied, saying Mary went to live 51 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: with her mother. When deputies returned Thursday morning, they discovered 52 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: Mary buried just feet away from her home, and her 53 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: brother's body was found nearby. Elwyn Crocker Junior hadn't been 54 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: seen since November twenty sixteen. Authorities believe he was killed 55 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: at that time, only discovered now two years later after 56 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: his death, he would have been sixteen. Neither of them 57 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: were reported missing. Deputies have charged three in connection, the 58 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: biological father, forty nine year old Elwyn Crocker, the stepmother 59 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: thirty three year old Candice Crocker, and the step grandmother, 60 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: fifty year old Kim Wright. They say the three are 61 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: being charged with concealing the death of another and cruelty 62 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 1: to children in the first degree. Deputies say the child 63 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: of the stepmother was found alive inside the home. He 64 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: was taken to the hospital to be checked out. And 65 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: a stunning story of two raisin burglars who make themselves 66 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 1: at home. They make a pot of coffee, do their laundry, 67 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: and take a shower. After breaking into a house and 68 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: can't ohio, they steal expensive stuff. Police say the couple 69 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 1: hanging out in the house until the homeowner comes back, 70 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: realizes what's going down and calls a relative who has 71 00:04:18,920 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: a gun. The two suspects identified as Richard Napelle, thirty 72 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 1: eight years old and camer Cantwell, twenty, who is reportedly homeless. 73 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,480 Speaker 1: After the two allegedly steal jewelry, a computer, credit cards, 74 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: house and car keys, they load these items into their 75 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: truck and then go back inside and do the laundry, 76 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: take the shower, and make coffee. The homeowner arrives sees 77 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,960 Speaker 1: the truck in her driveway, and she calls a relative 78 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: who lives nearby, who arrives with the gun before police 79 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: get there. The male suspect also has crystal meth on 80 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: him when he's arrested. The two now charged with burglary, 81 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: and he's also facing an aggravated drug possession charge. In 82 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: other news, a crazy story out on Long Island where 83 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: a couple is accused of punching a New York State 84 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: trooper and then throwing soiled underwear during a dui arrest. 85 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: Michael Nelson, thirty eight years old, pulled over on the 86 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:14,960 Speaker 1: Southern State Parkway. Copsy he's driving under the influence of alcohol. 87 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: While he's being arrested, police say he headbuts the trooper 88 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: several times and hits the officer. His wife, Alexandra twenty 89 00:05:22,880 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: nine years old, also arrested. While these two at the 90 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:30,239 Speaker 1: police station, the wife reportedly spits at the officers throws 91 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: her shoes and dirty underwear at them. She's charged with 92 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: attempted assault, criminal possession of a controlled substance, and disorderly conduct. 93 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: The husband charged with driving under the influence, assault, criminal 94 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:47,920 Speaker 1: possession of a controlled substance, resisting arrest, and harassment. More 95 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: now from WABC's Sandra Bookman a bizarre story on Long Island. 96 00:05:52,720 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: Police say a couple headbutted a state trooper and even 97 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 1: through a soiled underwear during a dui arrest. Stay Troopers 98 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:02,719 Speaker 1: say they pulled that couple over this morning on the 99 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 1: Southern State Parkway. Police say Michael Nelson fought the state 100 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: troopers who arrested him, and when they got to the 101 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:13,520 Speaker 1: police station, officers say his wife Alexandra spat at the 102 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: troopers and through her shoes and underwear. A couple faces 103 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 1: a laundry list of charges. Keep up to date on 104 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: justice and crime issues with Nancy's website Crime Online dot 105 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: com and follow Nancy on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram to 106 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: know what she's talking about each day on Crime Stories 107 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace, which is now on Sirius XM channel 108 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 1: one eleven and heard on radio stations around the United 109 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: States every day. And follow Nancy on Twitter, Facebook, and 110 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: Instagram to know what she's talking about each day on 111 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, which is now on Sirius 112 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: XM channel one eleven and heard on radio stations around 113 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: the United States every day. And if you miss her there, 114 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: download the Crime Stories podcast. Subscribe at Apple Podcast, Google 115 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: Play and many other podcastings. If you have a tip 116 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:03,599 Speaker 1: for Nancy or want to leave a question she might 117 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 1: answer in her show, call Nancy's Crime Stories Hotline at 118 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: one nine nine four nine Crime That's nine O nine 119 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: four nine two seven four sixty three and Nancy answers 120 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: the phone live on most weekday mornings. We will let 121 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: you know through Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter and now Crime 122 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I 123 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: never once introduced a sidekick into court because hey, it's 124 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: not hard evidence. Be the defense would cross examine those 125 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: witnesses to h E, double L and back. So in 126 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: my world as a felony prosecutor, if I can't see it, 127 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: touch it, smell it, hear it, it doesn't exist in 128 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: the world of hard evidence. And my job was to 129 00:08:03,920 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: put hard evidence in front of a jury to prove 130 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: somebody needed to go to jail for the rest of 131 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: their life or worse. But then everything changed. I mean, 132 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 1: see Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being 133 00:08:19,120 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: with us. What do you think about psychics and specifically 134 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: about psychic detectives, because today we have an all star 135 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: lineup of some of the most well known psychics in 136 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 1: the world to talk about not just does another realm exist, 137 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: but what they have done to help solve criminal cases 138 00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: with me Noreen Rnare, Gil Saint, John Alison Dubois and 139 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: of course death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan forensics expert, to 140 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: weigh in on the let's just say the world of 141 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 1: here and now and Alan Jackie Howard, We're all here 142 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,760 Speaker 1: and again thank you being with us. I'll tell you, 143 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: jos Got Morgans, it's you an ideal and harsh reality 144 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: and cold hard facts before I get to our ladies, 145 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: jos Got, Come on, if I tried to bring a 146 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 1: psychic into court, I would be laughed down the courthouse 147 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: hallway right out the front door, and I could be 148 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,720 Speaker 1: looking for a job, I don't know, door to door, 149 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: back and cleaner salesperson. I guess I don't know what 150 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: I would be doing with that law degree, because there 151 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:30,800 Speaker 1: would be enough skeptics to ruin a verdict and I 152 00:09:30,840 --> 00:09:34,760 Speaker 1: could never risk that. Yeah, Nancy, Yeah, Nancy, I'm a 153 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:39,000 Speaker 1: forensic scientist, and I concur with much of what you 154 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: had said relative to being able to not just qualify, 155 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: but quantify those things. That we see before us in 156 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: the field and in the laboratory, that sort of thing. 157 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: And it's very hard to get that exactly, but I'll 158 00:09:51,040 --> 00:09:53,319 Speaker 1: tell you what changed my mind. I'd been out of 159 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,160 Speaker 1: the court courtroom for a year or two and I 160 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 1: got um drafted by the Larry King staff and to 161 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,960 Speaker 1: be not just a guest, but to be Larry's regular 162 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 1: guest host for about five years. And I remember one 163 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:11,160 Speaker 1: time Larry had to go somewhere. We went live that 164 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:16,360 Speaker 1: night on Psychic Detectives. So I started preparing for the 165 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: show and listen to this Joe Scott Morgan, mister nonbeliever. 166 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: I started reading about a Burbank woman who had never 167 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: had a psychic vision in her life, and she allegedly 168 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: has a psychic vision. And I'm putting that in quoties 169 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 1: that leads detectives to the body of a murder victim. 170 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 1: Now this is what went down. This woman, Etta Louise Smith, 171 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,199 Speaker 1: out of the blue, says that she had a vision 172 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: about a body out in the middle of like a 173 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: canyon rural area, and I think, as I recall it, 174 00:10:55,080 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 1: that she saw white. She keeps having the vision and 175 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 1: it's so overwhelming. She gets members of her family to 176 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: go with her and they go driving around Joe Scott, 177 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:15,480 Speaker 1: they find the body of a beautiful young nurse. It 178 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,359 Speaker 1: was two days after the nurse is very highly publicized disappearance. 179 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: As I recall it, the nurse was coming home from 180 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: work one evening. You know, they have crazy shifts at 181 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 1: a hospital. She's at a red light and a bunch 182 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: of guys that she didn't know drove up beside her 183 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 1: and they kidnapped her and ended up beating her and 184 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: dumping her body in a rural area above lake View Terraces. 185 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,719 Speaker 1: About forty five minutes after, she finds the body with 186 00:11:46,880 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: her family members. They call police and the police are 187 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:54,079 Speaker 1: there now. She is there with two of her children 188 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: and a niece and they find the body and they leave. 189 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,440 Speaker 1: Police to the location in Lopez Canyon, in the middle 190 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: of a canyon, Jefe Scott. Well, the police get there 191 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: and guess what they do? They arrest her. After hours 192 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: and hours of interrogation, they arrest Eda Smith. Nancy, Let's 193 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: listen to what Eda Smith told Oprah Winfrey. Well, what 194 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,320 Speaker 1: really brought it about was I was listening to a 195 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: news broadcast on a radio and the night before a 196 00:12:24,200 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 1: girlfriend had called me on the phone and asked me 197 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 1: if I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped, 198 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:32,600 Speaker 1: and you felt what Well, what really brought it about 199 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: was I was listening to a news broadcast on a radio, 200 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: and the night before a girlfriend had called me on 201 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: the phone and asked me if I had heard about 202 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:43,240 Speaker 1: a nurse who had been kidnapped and was missing in 203 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: our area, and I said no, I hadn't heard about it. 204 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: So that day at work. The following day, at work, 205 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: I listened to the radio and they said that they 206 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,480 Speaker 1: had found the ladies vehicle on a dead end street 207 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: and that they were making a house to house search 208 00:12:57,040 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: for her. And as soon as they said a house 209 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: to house, sir, it was as if I heard someone 210 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: speaking to me says, she's not in a house. And 211 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: as soon as that thought registered, I saw exactly where 212 00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: she was. It was like there was a picture in 213 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 1: front of me. WHOA. I didn't know the name of 214 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:14,199 Speaker 1: the street, but I knew the area, I knew how 215 00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,200 Speaker 1: to get there, and I just knew. So what did 216 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: you do? Tell called police? Well, this was about three 217 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:22,560 Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon, I was at work. I'd get 218 00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: off work at three thirty, and I'm arguing with myself 219 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,360 Speaker 1: all the way home because when I get to a 220 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: certain intersection, I either turn right to go home, or 221 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 1: I can turn left and I'll be right in front 222 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:33,840 Speaker 1: the police department. So I'm saying I should stop, and 223 00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 1: I'm saying now I should go home. Well, when I 224 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: got to that intersection, I said, let him think I'm nuts. 225 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: I have to stop. And it's exactly what I did. 226 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 1: I talked to a homicide investigator, told him exactly the area. 227 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: I said, I knew that it's on the right hand 228 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: side going up this canyon road, and that there was 229 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,800 Speaker 1: a dirt path going towards this person and with a 230 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: heel behind her. He said they had not check that area, 231 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: that they would, and I said, well, you know, I 232 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: have a feeling I will also. Inside I wanted to 233 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,760 Speaker 1: be wrong, but I also felt that if I didn't check, 234 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: I'd never know the truth. I'd never know if they checked, 235 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: I'd never know for sure whether I was right or wrong, 236 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: and I wanted to be wrong. I was hoping I 237 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 1: was really wrong. So you went there yourself, or you 238 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: went there with them? No, I went I didn't go 239 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: with them. I went home. I told my children why 240 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 1: I was late coming home, and they wanted to go 241 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: with me. I told him I was going. And I 242 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: feel bad about that now because at the time I 243 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: wasn't thinking properly. I wouldn't have taken the children out 244 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 1: to look for someone. But as he was saying, when 245 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: you get in, how old were your children? Nine? Ten? Yeah? 246 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: I took two children with me, plus a niece who 247 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,240 Speaker 1: was twenty one at the time. And you found the 248 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: body ultimately, yeah, yeah, you found the Boddy and and 249 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: you were saying what Charles was saying that what when 250 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:06,680 Speaker 1: you get close? Because I knew when we got in 251 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 1: the canyon, I could I could feel, I could feel 252 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:16,560 Speaker 1: the terror. I could feel vibrations of something that wasn't normal. 253 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: I felt scared myself, you know, I could feel it 254 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: just like he since Jennifer, since her you said you 255 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: felt her absolutely. That is amazing. That is amazing. Police 256 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: later arrested you because well, they said I knew too 257 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 1: much about it not to have been involved, because I 258 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: had described in detail where she was up this canyon 259 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: road on the side on the right side, with a 260 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: dirt path going to her and a hill behind her. 261 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,800 Speaker 1: I said, I had to have been there to have 262 00:15:44,880 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: known that. So long story short, Joe Scott. She didn't 263 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: take kindly, as you can imagine, getting arrested after hours 264 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:57,120 Speaker 1: and hours of interrogation. She sued LAPD and she got 265 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: a huge settlement from lap Now, when I read this story, 266 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: and I read several more like it, and I did 267 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: the Larry King Show that night, and I was questioning 268 00:16:09,600 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 1: the cops that were on the case, cops Joe Scott, 269 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: police officers, and they're like, we don't understand it, but 270 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: it happened in Joe Scott. We did several shows like that, 271 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: and we would have three or four cases on each show. 272 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: And I got the opportunity to talk to the sidekicks, 273 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: which I had never done before, to question the police officers, 274 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: some of the victims' families, and I walked away going, Okay, 275 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 1: this does not make sense in my head, but it happened. 276 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: I don't It's just like you know, the telephone and 277 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: the TV and the radio and the cell phone. I 278 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: don't know how it happens, but I know that it 279 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,520 Speaker 1: does happen. I know when I flicked the lights, which 280 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: light comes on. I don't have to think about Wow, 281 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: how did we harness electricity? How do we get it 282 00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: into the room without burning the house down? I don't 283 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: think about that, but I know that it happens Joe Scott, 284 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 1: and this appen for us in investigations. We're so pragmatic 285 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 1: about everything, and we spend we spend so much of 286 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 1: our time trying to cut through what is fact and 287 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:15,160 Speaker 1: what is fiction. We are lied to a lot, I think, 288 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: in our field trying to get to the truth, and 289 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 1: it's we're biased in that sense in that we assume 290 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: many times that most of the people that we're talking 291 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,119 Speaker 1: to are trying to deceive us in something. Well, I 292 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: hear what you're saying, and that may be true, and 293 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:33,680 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's not true. Your point. What I'm 294 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: saying is if I can't understand it, if it's not 295 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 1: two plus two equals four, I'm not putting in front 296 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: of a jury, bam, end of story. If I can't 297 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: prove it at a crime lab or I can't see 298 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 1: it here it, taste it, touch it, or smell it, 299 00:17:47,080 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: it's not in my world. Until I spoke to Edda 300 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: with me right now, three of the most well known 301 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: psychics literally in the World. Norine Raner del Saint John 302 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: Alison Duba First to you, Alison Duba, tell me how 303 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:10,480 Speaker 1: you became a psychic. When did you first have any 304 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: psychic vision or experience. It started when I was really little. 305 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:16,160 Speaker 1: I mean I was six years old and I went 306 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: to the first funeral I ever attended, and it was 307 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: my great grandfather's. And I came home from his funeral 308 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: and my mom tucked me into bed, and I looked 309 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,439 Speaker 1: at the foot of my bed and he was standing 310 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 1: there and he actually looked like he had no lines 311 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 1: on his face, and he looked happy. And he said, 312 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: tell your mom, I'm not in pain anymore and I'm 313 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,359 Speaker 1: still with her, because he had died of intestinal cancer, 314 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: very painful death. So I got out of bed and 315 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:40,640 Speaker 1: I told my mom, Grandpa's in my room, and he says, 316 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: to tell you, he's not in pain anymore and he's 317 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: still with you, and she told me to go back 318 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,879 Speaker 1: to bed. So it was the seventies. They didn't know 319 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: what to do with kids like me at the time, 320 00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: So that was my first experience. You know, I'm looking 321 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: at a photo of you right now, Alison Dublat, and 322 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: I already know you, but I'm just looking at you. 323 00:18:57,200 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: And when people think of mediums or chics, they think 324 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,959 Speaker 1: of some crackpot dressed and I guess a gypsy outfit 325 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 1: over a fake crystal ball in a dark room. Okay, 326 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:10,959 Speaker 1: that's that's what they think of. It couldn't if you 327 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 1: guys look up these three ladies, Narin, Gayl and Alison, 328 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: and I don't mean this it's an insult. They're normal. 329 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: They're regular people like you and me that have had 330 00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:22,199 Speaker 1: an event in their lives that took them down the 331 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: road of psychic medium. So tell me when your next 332 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,040 Speaker 1: vision was or your next I don't know if I 333 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: call it a vision or experience. Alison, you know I 334 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: had experiences through my whole childhood. I guess when I 335 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,920 Speaker 1: was a teenager, when you get really turned up because 336 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: of the hormones and all, I moved my bed from 337 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 1: against the south wall over to the east wall. And 338 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: my friend Barbara, who was spending the night that night, 339 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: was like, would you do that for and I said, yeah, 340 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,520 Speaker 1: voice that I've heard my whole life told me to 341 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 1: move the bed, and I said, so, I moved the 342 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: bed because it has already saved my life once before, 343 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: when I was eleven, and that night a truck drift 344 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: through my bedroom wall, and if I hadn't moved the bed, 345 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: barber and I would have been under the truck. So 346 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: my friends always just chalked it up, so, well, that's 347 00:20:07,280 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 1: just Allison, you know. So I thought everybody could do 348 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: what I did, they just didn't talk about it like 349 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:15,960 Speaker 1: wink wink, nod nod. But it wasn't until I was 350 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: interning a homicide to be a prosecutor that I realized 351 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 1: that other people didn't necessarily see or hear what I 352 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:25,639 Speaker 1: was seeing and hearing. And that was news to me. 353 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:29,120 Speaker 1: Also with me in addition to Alison Dubois at Alison 354 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: Dubois dot com, Noreen Ranier, and Gail Saint John Norine. 355 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:38,159 Speaker 1: If it's not too intrusive again, landies, thank you to 356 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: all three of you being with dus Norine. When was 357 00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: your first I don't know what else to call it 358 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: but psychic experience. I was all grown up and I 359 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,040 Speaker 1: was pretty much a skeptic. I thought all psychics told 360 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: client people could marrya told our handsome man and they 361 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,800 Speaker 1: stole chickens or something of the sort. So I was 362 00:20:54,920 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 1: very surprised when I started meditating. I didn't believe in 363 00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: psychic phenomena, and I went almost immediately into a trance 364 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: and gave a Winnebagel Indian who was at the table 365 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 1: with my girlfriend, who was also skeptic nun information which 366 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,200 Speaker 1: hold on, I've got two skeptics and one is an 367 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: ex nun. You know that just reminds me. Let me 368 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: tell you, Narein, when I was a FED before I 369 00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:21,359 Speaker 1: became a felony prosecutor, I was prosecuting some people with 370 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: the Federal Trade Commission in the consumer protection an I 371 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: trust vision and it was a weight loss product, which 372 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: I knew from examining and speaking to scientists had nothing 373 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,240 Speaker 1: in it at all that would be at a weight loss. 374 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: It's something called guar g u a R. I've never 375 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: had a chance to work that into a conversation since 376 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 1: that time, but guar kind of expands in your stomach 377 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,120 Speaker 1: and makes you feel full for a minute and then 378 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:48,520 Speaker 1: basically no, nothing to make you lose weight. Then I 379 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,199 Speaker 1: started sifting through all the letters of complaints and I 380 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 1: found one letter from a nun that swore she lost 381 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,639 Speaker 1: forty pounds usually whatever it was, I don't even remember 382 00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 1: the name. Of it and I took it into my 383 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: boss's office. I was holding I'm like, we're screed because 384 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: this nune says this worked, and she used it for 385 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: six months. And let me tell you something. You put 386 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 1: this n up on that witness stand, it's over. Okay, 387 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 1: we got to rethink this whole thing. So you're telling 388 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: me you're sitting there with an X nun and what happened? 389 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: And well she was a disbeliever and everything too. So 390 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: we after Joe, after the episode, we got rid of 391 00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:25,439 Speaker 1: Joan and did you believe this stuff? I said no, 392 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: she must have done something to us. So we decided 393 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,879 Speaker 1: to meet that night. Her husband worked late. She was 394 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: out of the convent now like ten years and had 395 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: been in the convent for about ten years. And we 396 00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: started doing what the books we're talking about, we would practice. 397 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: So that's how it began. And then at work, I 398 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 1: couldn't think. I just wanted to see if it worked. 399 00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:46,120 Speaker 1: And I was in PR and advertising, so I could 400 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: bring clients too high at hotel and show them in 401 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: case they wanted to rende lecture hall or something, and 402 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: I would rush them to lunch and say, look, I 403 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 1: really don't believe in this, but I'm read if you 404 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: hold a person's rings or watch and you put it 405 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: to your forehead, you can, and so I'd be grabbing 406 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:01,959 Speaker 1: their want to ring off the practice on people I 407 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 1: didn't know, and it was working. Of course, I got fired, 408 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,960 Speaker 1: I think not a very good psyche got three months later, 409 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 1: and so that's when I went full time, dressed like 410 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 1: a gypsy and started in the nightclub. I was still 411 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: trying to prove that this really was real, and then 412 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: science got involved Duke University, a lot of testing at 413 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: Ryan Research, and I still love testing my mind of 414 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 1: what it can do. And I do still a lot 415 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: of work, and I'm working a lot now in South 416 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: Africa of all places. Okay, I'm just taking all of 417 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: this in. Gail Saint John also with me, in addition 418 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: to Alison du Bois and Mareen Renier. Gail Saint John, 419 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: you and I've spoken many many times, although guys on 420 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: professional level, I have not consulted with Gayl Saint John. Okay, 421 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: I'm still clinging to the fact that this may not exist, 422 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: even though I know that it has actually happened. Gael 423 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,640 Speaker 1: Saint John, I want to hear your first so called 424 00:23:57,680 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: I don't know what else to call it, unless you 425 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 1: ladies can enlighten me. Psychic experience. Um well, I vividly 426 00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:09,480 Speaker 1: remember I was about four years old. My mother was 427 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: outside talking to the neighbor. You know, we're talking about 428 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,400 Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, so you can kind of picture how 429 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: that is. I'm two houses down playing with the other 430 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 1: little girl. We're used to having a great time, like 431 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: you know, real little kids are doing and watching our 432 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: mom's talk. And and I look up at her house 433 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,920 Speaker 1: and it was on fire. And I'm at an age where, 434 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,920 Speaker 1: you know, comprehension isn't the greatest. But so I looked down. 435 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:39,680 Speaker 1: I look up again, and the house was on fire. 436 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,479 Speaker 1: Now at this point, I'm scared, I'm running home. If 437 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: I'm running back, you know, just quickly I glanced again, 438 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: the house was not on fire. And I'm running up 439 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: to my mom and I'm yelling mom, mom, and she's 440 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: trying to, you know, keep me quiet for a minute, 441 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: and she shuffled me into the house. I think she 442 00:24:56,040 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: said something to neighbor. I think she got hurt. And 443 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: we get into the house and she said, what what 444 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 1: are you howiring about fire? I said, I saw the 445 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 1: house on fire. I saw the neighbor's house on fire. 446 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:09,680 Speaker 1: She said, it's not on fire, and I insisted, I 447 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: saw it, but I know it's gone now. She said, 448 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 1: you like, what exactly did you see? And I said, 449 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: it was burning, there was smoke, I saw people there, 450 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: and then I said, then it was all gone. She said, um, 451 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,520 Speaker 1: she said, you know you need to not say these things. 452 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: I'm like, I mean, I clean, I can't say these things. 453 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: And my grandmother came out of the other room she goes, ye, 454 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: we don't talk about this. This has been in our family. 455 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: We don't. You don't say these things. I was so 456 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 1: confused at that point I let it go. Three days 457 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,119 Speaker 1: later their house burned down. And then that left me 458 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 1: with the strangest of feelings that at such a young age, 459 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: of like what if what if they? What if somebody 460 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: would have And thank goodness, nobody got hurt in the fire, 461 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: they all got out, But what if what if somebody 462 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: had gotten hurt? And I would have been responsible because 463 00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: I knew I could have warned them? And I with 464 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: a guilt for quite some time and trying to deal 465 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 1: with disability and where's that line, Hi, Nancy Grace, here 466 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: have you ever Googled yourself, your neighbors, somebody at work, 467 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: a crush. Fifty seven percent of Americans admit keeping an 468 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: eye on their own online reputation. Forty six admit to 469 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: using the Internet to look up somebody from their past. 470 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: But Google and Facebook the tip of the iceberg when 471 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: it comes to finding personal information. There's an innovative new 472 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: website called truth Finder. It's now revealing the full scoop 473 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,239 Speaker 1: on millions of Americans. Truthfinder can search through hundreds of 474 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,960 Speaker 1: millions of public records in a matter of minutes. Truth 475 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 1: Finder members can literally begin searching in seconds for sensitive 476 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 1: data like criminal traffic, arrest records. Before you bring someone 477 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 1: new into your life and around the people you care 478 00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 1: for your children, consider using Truthfinder. What you find may 479 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: astound you. Go to truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy 480 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: right away to start searching Truthfinder dot com forward slash 481 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: Nancy Truthfinder dot com forward slash Nancy. Find the truth 482 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:29,280 Speaker 1: crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are speaking with three 483 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 1: renowned so called psychic detectives Narene Ranier, Gail sat John 484 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: Alison Dubois with me death investigator Joe Scott Morgan, Alan 485 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: Duke and Jackie Howard. I want to go to Noreen Rnaer. Noreen, 486 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 1: do you recall a particular case that you worked on. 487 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: This case dealt with a victim that is last named 488 00:27:54,040 --> 00:28:00,399 Speaker 1: Sullivan that was ultimately discovered dead. Um. It was a 489 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 1: missing person case and an agent with the Montana Department 490 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:11,200 Speaker 1: of Justice. The d o J contacted you in way 491 00:28:11,240 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: back after watching you on television. He was skeptical, he says, 492 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: he met you, flew to Florida to meet you to 493 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 1: see if you were the real deal. He says. He 494 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 1: gave you no information about the unsolved case and wanted 495 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: to find out if you could possibly help find a 496 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 1: Montana State auditor Walter Sullivan. Noreene, do you recall the 497 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: Sullivan case out of Montana? Oh? Yes, they do. I 498 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: got a phone call from them. They had Detective uber Ubi. 499 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 1: I had seen me on television and I wanted to 500 00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:49,560 Speaker 1: know how I worked. And usually the police, because I 501 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: worked all over the United States, would send me something 502 00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: off the victim that wouldn't interrupt their crime, like a 503 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 1: whew or built buckle or something. And they didn't want 504 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 1: to send the evidence had so they flew out and 505 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: usually I do things over the phone, so I was 506 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:09,200 Speaker 1: surprised to see them with the camera and they videotaped 507 00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: the session, and they would give me no feedback. Usually 508 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:15,760 Speaker 1: on the phone, I just asked if it's a homicide 509 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: or a missing person case. I don't ask for their 510 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: name because the skeptics always say that we look it 511 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: up and we know everything about the person. So I 512 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 1: never know the name of the victim until I start 513 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 1: the case. So they told me they named the victim, 514 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: and I described him to make sure I was tuned in. 515 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: I forgot I think I was holding something. Of the 516 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: victims did a bunch on him, and they were very 517 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: bad at giving me feedback, and usually I just like 518 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: to know if I'm in the right zone, you know, 519 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: did he have you know, the ball here? However, I 520 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,560 Speaker 1: described him, but they've no feedback whatsoever. And then they 521 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: gave me the projectile the bullet that he had been 522 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 1: shot with, and then I got all sorts of new pictures. 523 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: I saw three men, and I remember my head hurting terribly. 524 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: I was outside of a blue building walking towards it 525 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: when these men jumped me and they started hitting me, 526 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: and the one in the head hurt me the most. 527 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: Described there was two Mexicans and then the third man. 528 00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 1: We just have an artist. I always worked with an 529 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: artist when we have homicide cases, so it helps the 530 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: police with the elimination of suspects. So the artist was 531 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 1: drawing the faces I was seen. But I remember my 532 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 1: head hurting so badly. Even after I came out of 533 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: my tramps, I was still hurting. After describing the three men, 534 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 1: the two Mexicans and the one other older man, they 535 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: just started asking me questions and then I would respond 536 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: to the questions. How we was killed? You know why 537 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: I was killed. I saw a lot of numbers around 538 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: the victim, and he turned out that he was into 539 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 1: finance a great deal. Don't remember everything, but they were 540 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: just very pleased with what I gave them. I forgot 541 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: what else they wanted to know. Oh, I had to 542 00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: draw things for them. They they want to know what 543 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,800 Speaker 1: the gun looked like, and I was trying to tell 544 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: them that you had to use two hands on it, 545 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: and they still couldn't understand. So I got a piece 546 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: of paper and a pen and drew it and it 547 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 1: turned out it was like a K nine. I still 548 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,400 Speaker 1: don't know guns, but it drew it just like it 549 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: it was, so they were very happy with all the evidence. Wow. 550 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: I mean I did a lot more, but I can't 551 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: remember everything, and I don't feel that I ever solved crumbs. 552 00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: I think that I'm like, I'm a tool and if 553 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,440 Speaker 1: they know how to use me, right, and a lot 554 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,040 Speaker 1: of police don't. If they knew how to use me, 555 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 1: and I try to write how best I work, I'm 556 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: just a tool for them to get more evidence, and 557 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: that's what they bring to court. Wow. Back to our skeptic. 558 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, homicide investigator and professor forensics at Jacksonville 559 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: State University. Okay, Joe Scott, did you hear that? Oh yeah, 560 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: I heard it. Nancy heard it loud and clear, and 561 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: for all I know, it could just be a random 562 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: shot in the dark. So you're gonna have to prove 563 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: it to me. And I'm not buying it. I'm not much. 564 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:04,120 Speaker 1: There's too much at risk here, There's too much, Joe Scott, 565 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: hold on, you know what, That's what they said the 566 00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: first time somebody brought up the idea of fingerprints. I'll 567 00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: let you chew on that for a few moments. Alison 568 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 1: Dubois Gail Saint John Noreen Ranier with us. Alison Dubois, 569 00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 1: you also have worked on particular criminal cases. Let's talk 570 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: about Jackie Hartman, and remember everybody. Alison Dubois actually worked 571 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: at the Miracopa County District Attorney's Office in Arizona. In fact, 572 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 1: one of her task was organizing crime scene photos. I 573 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: want to talk to you about a particular case, Jackie Hartman, 574 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 1: a nineteen year old. What do you recall about that case, 575 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 1: Alison Dubois. Well, I was taken to the last place 576 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 1: she was seeing, which was kind of like a gas 577 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: station convenience store, and the first thing that I picked 578 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: up was that she went willingly. So then the next 579 00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 1: piece of information that I wrote down was date rate 580 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: gone wrong. She'd been missing about two weeks at this point, 581 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 1: I said, you can hear helicopters overhead where her body is, 582 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: so they're looking in the right area. I said, there's 583 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: a small barbecue nearby where you have like a cook out. 584 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: Her body was rolled down a hill outside the city limits. 585 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 1: I said the cell phone tower would be how they 586 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: find her, and then I let them know that they 587 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: would find her body in two weeks, which they did 588 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:27,440 Speaker 1: find her body in exactly two weeks. Alison Dubois is 589 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: referring to the case of Jackie Hartman, a nineteen year 590 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: old nursing student. Jackie's body was found in two thousand 591 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: and seven, within hours of the time Dubois said it 592 00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: would be found. Jackie Hartman's date on the night of 593 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 1: her disappearance was ultimately convicted of killing the young girl, 594 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,240 Speaker 1: Jackie Hartman, nineteen year old nursing student. Very interesting that 595 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,520 Speaker 1: she tells police that this was that the victim, Jackie, 596 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 1: went with her killer willingly that it was a date 597 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: rape to find the victim through cell phone records, specifically 598 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 1: that she would be found in two weeks. She was 599 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: found thirteen days and twenty something hours from the day 600 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: the moment that Allison spoke with police. I mean, it 601 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 1: just goes on and on and on. It's what do 602 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: you have to say to your critics, Alison, Um, you know, 603 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,960 Speaker 1: I half of my friends are cops and the county 604 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: attorneys prosecutors. So I'm critical of myself. So I know 605 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 1: what information they need that can actually be helpful and 606 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: what's just fluff. You know that some psychics give and 607 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: they get pulled into the emotional state of the victim. 608 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: I try to go through the killer myself instead of 609 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: the victim. But for people who don't believe, it's not 610 00:34:57,800 --> 00:34:59,919 Speaker 1: it really doesn't change my life if they don't believe, 611 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, at the end of the day, 612 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,480 Speaker 1: we all die, and everybody finds out that there's life 613 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: after death and that you know, what we're doing to 614 00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: help to help the police when they hit a wall. 615 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: We're just a last resort. We don't want to be 616 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 1: their first choice of weapon. It's a lot of work 617 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: for us, and it takes an emotional toll on us. 618 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: I've never charged to work a case because I've been 619 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: so blessed in life. It's just kind of how I've 620 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,200 Speaker 1: given back. But that's just personally how I've approached it. So, 621 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: you know, as far as working cases, there was no 622 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 1: monetary gain. And I guess one could say, well, you 623 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: got a television show about it about you because of 624 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: it and you did well, and I would argue that, well, 625 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: then you're just proving that I'm a psychic, because then 626 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: I knew I was going to become rich off of 627 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,279 Speaker 1: working cases, you know, So they can't have it both ways, 628 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 1: and usually skeptics like to argue it so that no 629 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: matter what we say or what we do, it's never 630 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,680 Speaker 1: going to be enough evidence or impressive enough. And so 631 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: for those people, I don't really I don't bother with me. 632 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 1: Noreene Renare, Gil's Saint John, Alison Dubois, Joseph Scott Morgan, 633 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: death investigator and professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, 634 00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: My buddy Alan joining me from LA and Jackie Howard 635 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: here in the studio. Joe Scott Morgan, you're chopping at 636 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: the bit way in Joe Scott, Yeah, I gotta tell you. 637 00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned fingerprints a moment ago as somebody said, hey, 638 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: you know, you know we can't use these. You're right, 639 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,120 Speaker 1: you can't use them because it can't be quantified and 640 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,719 Speaker 1: it can't be proved. You have to be able to 641 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,240 Speaker 1: replicate this over and over and over using the same test. 642 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,239 Speaker 1: And that's how we validate things in forensic science, in 643 00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,239 Speaker 1: science in general. You know that as a former prosecutor. 644 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,279 Speaker 1: Now I want to speak with Gil Saint John, who 645 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: is a renowned psychic, and she was actually drawn to 646 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: the spot where little Kelley Anthony's body was found months 647 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: before the body was found and even has video to 648 00:36:56,920 --> 00:36:59,360 Speaker 1: prove it. She came forward to say she was not 649 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,240 Speaker 1: surprised Kelly was found in the woods off Suburban Drive, 650 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: that she had been in that area and drawn to 651 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: that area months before. Gail Saint John and her search 652 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,600 Speaker 1: team is so called the Body Hunters, went to Orlando 653 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 1: to search for Kelly, and on their very first day 654 00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: out of nowhere, she leads them on a blind drive 655 00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,760 Speaker 1: to this spot. Gail Saint John, can you even explain 656 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,759 Speaker 1: what's going on in your mind when you have this 657 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: sort of experience? You know, I'm not sure that there's 658 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 1: anything in a sense that you could say is totally 659 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 1: going on, except for it's almost your sort of trance 660 00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: like semitrance. You're hearing, you're feeling things from the other 661 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 1: side as well as you're Obviously, if you're driving, you 662 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,200 Speaker 1: have to be very conscious and aware of your driving. 663 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 1: But it's something I've always done, is that blind drive. 664 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:54,879 Speaker 1: I get to an area and I go to where 665 00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 1: the person was last seen, and then I pick up 666 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: on what happened, how I get to their body, and 667 00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: I just allow myself to drive where the feeling gets stronger. 668 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:09,839 Speaker 1: If you've ever played that hot and cold game when 669 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,919 Speaker 1: you were a kid. Yes, that's what it feels like. Really, 670 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,479 Speaker 1: I'm going left left, Nope, nope, not losing the feeling movement, 671 00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: feeling go the other direction, Yep, yep, it's getting stronger 672 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 1: going this way, and you follow. Yeah, what can you 673 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: tell me about Stephen Hoff? Stepan Hoff was a person 674 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: that they suspected he had left suicide and had left 675 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: a note. They had had searchers out several times looking 676 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:43,320 Speaker 1: for him. He's been missing around eight weeks at the 677 00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 1: time that our team was called out. Now, this was 678 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 1: a team case, so you have to tread lightly on 679 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 1: this because you're going out as a canine handler called 680 00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:59,239 Speaker 1: out by police. Sort of a conflict of interest with 681 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:02,440 Speaker 1: the two. They don't they don't see the psychic and 682 00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: they don't know that I'm psychic. They don't have any 683 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,720 Speaker 1: information on this. They're calling us out to do a search. 684 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 1: They don't even know if he's in this area, and 685 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: it's a very large preserve area. And we get out there. 686 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,800 Speaker 1: On that case, I run my canine. I got some 687 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 1: information off of my canine. If people don't understand, there's 688 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:24,640 Speaker 1: a lot to run a canine. You just don't turn 689 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,480 Speaker 1: your dog loose and go hey, yeah, you got to 690 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 1: understand scent theory and how it all works. He gave 691 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,399 Speaker 1: me some signs in an area that I was told 692 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 1: to go over into, and I had two other backup 693 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: handlers with me, and he kind of told me a 694 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 1: story in what he was doing, but my feelings were 695 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,839 Speaker 1: overriding some of this. Now by this time, the park 696 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:53,760 Speaker 1: is getting very busy with people walking on trails and thinking, okay, 697 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,080 Speaker 1: let's think about logics here. I'm gonna turn a canine loose. 698 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:01,440 Speaker 1: We've got people walking in this area over here and 699 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: they're walking dogs. It's gonna be a problem. It's gonna 700 00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,160 Speaker 1: be a problem. So what finally happened We turned and 701 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: looked at the two girls with me, and they sort 702 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,240 Speaker 1: of kind of knew that I did some psychic stuff. 703 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:15,600 Speaker 1: But listen, we're all about knines right there. You know 704 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: that that's that's the bottom line. So and I said, 705 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 1: I'm gonna put my dog up, and said what I said, Yeah, 706 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:23,560 Speaker 1: I want to put my dog off. I want to 707 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,879 Speaker 1: walk around on foot over here. Okay, So we looked 708 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: at the canine up and I went walking around, and 709 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 1: I knew, you know, I said, I gonna turn this on. 710 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,400 Speaker 1: This has got to happen. I gotta, you know, nip 711 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:39,719 Speaker 1: this in the bud right now. We gotta find this guy. 712 00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:42,320 Speaker 1: I just turned it on. I said, I don't know 713 00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: what to you know, I'm not even gonna say anything 714 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: to my my backup handlers. I just turned it on, 715 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:52,320 Speaker 1: went with my feelings, began walking, going in different places, 716 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,360 Speaker 1: and they're running behind me, going, Gael, what's going on? 717 00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: What's going what are you doing? What? Slow down? I couldn't. 718 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 1: I couldn't slow down by that poet. It was so 719 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: strong the poll. I just went and kept walking him. 720 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,960 Speaker 1: I can't hold back what happened. I walked right up 721 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,160 Speaker 1: on his body, walked right up on him. Okay, guys, 722 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: Narene Wir, Gail Saint John, Alison Dubois, Alison Dubois, could 723 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,120 Speaker 1: you tell me? You told me your first experience, but 724 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 1: what was your most powerful psychic experience? Um? I heard 725 00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 1: a voice say, your dad's gonna die at sixty seven 726 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: of a massive heart attack. So I sent my dad 727 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,520 Speaker 1: to all the heart specialists trying to intervene and save him. 728 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,839 Speaker 1: And he had been a professional ballroom dancer for fifty years. 729 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: He was in good shape and he died at sixty 730 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 1: seven of a massive heart attack. And I think that 731 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:49,879 Speaker 1: one was probably the most profound because it was my father. Wow, 732 00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,120 Speaker 1: you're really hitting a nerve. Lost my dad and I 733 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 1: just miss him so much. Narene Er, what was your 734 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: most powerful psychic experience? Uh? Mine was, of course my 735 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: police work. For the first five years, all I did 736 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,080 Speaker 1: was homicide because I'm really bad with left and right 737 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,600 Speaker 1: and I can get lost in a kmart, so I 738 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: never tried to find people. I just told everybody I'm homicide. Well, uh, 739 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,160 Speaker 1: FBI agent's life that knew about my work contact me, 740 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,360 Speaker 1: and her brother was missing in an airplane. H And 741 00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: at first I want to do it, Okay, say no, 742 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,719 Speaker 1: I don't do that, And then finally actually brought me 743 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,600 Speaker 1: some stuff that he had touched, a wallet and a 744 00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: coined thing, and I did the case, and I gave 745 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,520 Speaker 1: launch situde and latitude and the initials of the cities, 746 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,360 Speaker 1: and they found in the plane that it hadn't it 747 00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,360 Speaker 1: was in a plane, of course, and hadn't exploded. And 748 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:51,200 Speaker 1: I remember visually seeing somebody carrying something in places under 749 00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:54,239 Speaker 1: a tree, uh and then walking away and then I 750 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: opened my eyes and said, no, you just want him 751 00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: to be alive. I'm not doing this anymore. And when 752 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: they found the airplane, it was a hit. This woman 753 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: sitting under a tree like somebody had carried her there, 754 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,640 Speaker 1: and her brother had walked several yards away. But that 755 00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,360 Speaker 1: was my most because I'd never had been into missing 756 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: people and it was a whole whole new and I'm 757 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,840 Speaker 1: really good at it now. Wow, Gail Saint John, you 758 00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: told me how you initially realized that you had this 759 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:24,000 Speaker 1: extrasensory perception. What was your most profound, your most powerful, 760 00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,719 Speaker 1: I guess psychic experience or vision. I really got to say. 761 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: It concerned my grandmother. She was living with us at 762 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: the time, and two days prior to her passing, I 763 00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,160 Speaker 1: was told about it, and it was a semi dream state, 764 00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:44,719 Speaker 1: but I was very conscious of what was going on, 765 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: I think because at the time I was I was 766 00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,120 Speaker 1: fourteen years old. I really fought it and it was 767 00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:53,399 Speaker 1: painful and I want to ignore it. And two days 768 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 1: later she passed away. And that's very powerful and painful, 769 00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: and so many things all at the same time with me. 770 00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: Renowned psychics, so called psychic detectives Narene Rnair, Gil Saint John, 771 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:13,279 Speaker 1: Alison Dubois and skeptic Joseph Scott Morgan. Ladies, thank you 772 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: for sharing with us. You know, Joe Scott, I guess 773 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:20,000 Speaker 1: you and I will continue putting forth hard evidence as 774 00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: we call it, but it's very hard to put on 775 00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: blinders and try to ignore the stories that have been 776 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:34,640 Speaker 1: factually corroborated from Alison Dubois, Gail Saint John, and Narene Rner, 777 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,040 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace crime Stories signing up, goodbye friend,