WEBVTT - This Is How The Paparazzi Business Really Works 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:11.639 Hello, and welcome to another edition of the Ad Thoughts Podcast. 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:15.600 I'm Tracy Alloway and I'm Joe Eisenthal. Joe, you know what, 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:19.279 my favorite All Thoughts podcasts are definitely all the ones 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:23.280 we've done about poker and gambling, right, Yeah, poker and 0:00:23.520 --> 0:00:26.960 chess episodes, those are my absolute favorites. No, my favorite 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.240 episodes are actually when we talk to people are fellow 0:00:30.320 --> 0:00:34.640 colleagues at Bloomberg. I agree. I love those episodes and 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:38.720 not to sort of speak about how great things are 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:41.200 Bloomberg and how great it is here and how great 0:00:41.200 --> 0:00:44.320 our colleagues are, but it is really remarkable the wide 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:48.120 range of backgrounds that people have. Whether we're talking to 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.840 our colleague who is a cattle farmer or former traders 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:55.080 or whatever it is, or the guy who uh is 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.080 the father of the beige book, it's always interesting. Yeah, 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:02.440 it's a large organization. There's a wide range of experiences, 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:05.039 and it seems like a lot of people have very 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:07.759 interesting backstories, and we've had some of them on as 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.440 you just mentioned. But I think I've found the Bloomberg 0:01:11.640 --> 0:01:15.160 reporter with the most interesting background. Ever. This is going 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:17.840 to have to be pretty impressive to be the cow farmer. 0:01:17.880 --> 0:01:21.160 But I guess cow is our commodity, so I guess 0:01:21.240 --> 0:01:24.399 maybe it does fit in with the Bloomberg bread and 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.880 butter coverage. Okay, so what is the background of the 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.800 person we are talking to today? Okay, So our guest 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.240 for today is Eddie van der Vault. He is a 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:38.280 medals reporter for US in London, but before he was 0:01:38.400 --> 0:01:43.080 covering all things metal, he was actually a paparazzi or 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.560 I guess I should say paparazzo singular. I am very 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:48.520 excited about this. First of all, I'm a big fan 0:01:48.600 --> 0:01:51.160 of Eddie's medals coverage. I love what he talks about 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.560 gold because all the crazies are in that market. But 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.720 I feel like a the paparazzi is one of these 0:01:57.760 --> 0:02:01.160 things that's ubiquitous in modern life, and we basically know 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:05.640 nothing about how the business works. And I imagine there's 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.040 a lot of interesting lessons we'll learn about risk taking 0:02:08.080 --> 0:02:11.200 and risk management and all this, and maybe even also 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:15.120 digital rights management and intellectual property. So I'm excited about 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.160 this episode. Okay, Well, we have a lot to cover 0:02:18.320 --> 0:02:20.800 in twenty or thirty minutes then. I mean. The great 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.760 thing about Eddie is that He also looks at the 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:27.320 paparazzi business model from an economics perspective. I've spoken to 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:29.480 him a little bit about it before, so I think 0:02:29.560 --> 0:02:38.480 you're really going to enjoy this discussion. Bloomberg's Eddie Vanderwalt, 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.600 thanks so much for joining us. Tracy, Hi, thank you. 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.919 I guess the obvious question to begin with is how 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:49.120 you got into the business of being a paparazzo in 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.800 the first place. Yeah, I mean, I stopped off as 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.960 a student photographer. The dream was to go photograph elephants 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:58.600 in the serengetti, and you know, nobody told me that 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:02.400 that people don't pay for pictures of wildlife. And so 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:04.520 when I came over to the UK, I kind of 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:07.880 I wanted to work in news, and I had a 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:10.919 few interviews in the industry, and to be honest, I 0:03:11.200 --> 0:03:14.280 turned the first time I interviewed it at the company 0:03:14.280 --> 0:03:17.360 that I worked for, which was called Big Pictures, which 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:19.840 one of the biggest agencies at the time. They've gone 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.560 under since, but I interviewed there and I had no 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:24.480 idea what these guys did. So I walked into the 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:28.400 office and everywhere is just pictures of you know, I 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:31.760 don't know people in compromising positions, and you could just 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.760 you just got that got the image immediately that that 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.520 this was this was their business. Their business was was peparazzi. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:40.720 And so I was a student when Diana died, and 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:43.200 I remember saying to myself, the one job that I 0:03:43.200 --> 0:03:46.480 would never do in my life, it works a peparazzi photographer. 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:48.320 But I got interviewed by a by a South African 0:03:48.320 --> 0:03:50.480 guy and he offered me the job, and the first 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.560 time I turned it down, and then a few other 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:55.480 things that I tried didn't come off. So he came 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:57.920 back to me about a month later and said, look, 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.240 the guy that we hired at that time didn't work out, 0:04:00.320 --> 0:04:02.720 but you know, are you up for it? Um? And 0:04:02.760 --> 0:04:05.480 then the second time around, I took it. And it 0:04:05.600 --> 0:04:07.720 just kind of sucks you in, the world sucks you 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:09.360 in because the better you get it, the more you 0:04:09.520 --> 0:04:12.160 the more you know, the characters that work in it, 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:15.760 and the backstories and so on. The more you get 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.320 to know it, as in any industry, the more you 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.880 become worth. And so it was much easier to get 0:04:22.000 --> 0:04:24.279 into it than it was to get out of it, 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.279 to be honest, Eddie, A real quick question that I'm 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.880 curious about. Are the ranks of the paparazzi filled with 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.920 people who once aspired to what maybe other people would 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.760 use more noble ambitions like photographing wildlife for people who 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.240 thought they were gonna be war photographers and things like that. No, 0:04:42.440 --> 0:04:45.080 not really, you don't. You don't see a lot of 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:48.440 serious photographer. You see some serious photographers that that that 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.359 go into that industry, but the photographic skill set that 0:04:51.400 --> 0:04:52.919 you need isn't as high as it used to be. 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:54.480 I think in the old days when we were shooting 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:58.240 on film and people were developing canisters of film in 0:04:58.279 --> 0:04:59.880 the back of the boots of their cars and that 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.640 sort of thing, that was different. But nowadays with digital 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:06.760 photography and you see the image immediately after you took it. 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:10.240 And also the way that you operate, you're you're you're 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:12.400 setting up for a specific shot and you take it 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:15.359 over and over and over again, particularly at night, so 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.200 I worked at nights. The guys who work daytime, they're 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.159 a completely different breed. And the daytime guys they set 0:05:21.240 --> 0:05:23.480 up with long lenses, they hide in the bushes and 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.320 so on. Right, the guys who work nighttime, you would 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.680 have seen them outside of you know, Joe, I'm sure 0:05:29.720 --> 0:05:32.000 you go to these kind of, you know, posh restaurants 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.719 in New York. Tracy, I'm sure you do too, but 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.520 actually right, but it's a joke, but it might be. 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:41.960 But I think that these kind of restaurants are more 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.400 prevalent and you get more of celebrities hanging out in 0:05:44.400 --> 0:05:46.039 New York. So you would see these guys on the 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:48.680 pavement and they'd have flash guns and it would be 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:51.880 a pack of guys standing together and they're try and 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.440 get close in. So to answer you a question, no, 0:05:54.600 --> 0:05:57.240 it's not really. The skill sets not photographic. The skill 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:00.560 set is knowing who's famous, knowing who's hot. How how 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:02.640 can you going to sell it? What are people's car 0:06:02.720 --> 0:06:05.280 registration numbers? Right? Those kind of things. That's what you 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.080 want to know, and that's what makes or breaks a path. 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.080 So walk us through the business model. Then you're going 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.200 out at night, You're sending yourself outside, Um, I don't know, 0:06:14.279 --> 0:06:17.440 Chipriyani's or something in well, I guess this would be London, 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:21.400 and you're waiting for famous people to come out, and 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:24.640 how do you actually make money and how do you 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:30.120 differentiate yourself from the other photographers who are standing there waiting. Right. So, Tracy, 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.040 I've met the two of you. You know you would 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:35.120 know I'm not six ft five and you know, in 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.320 that sort of scrum situation, you want to get to 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.200 the front, you want to push people out of the way, 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:41.880 and it's it's it's a bit of a rough and tumble. 0:06:41.920 --> 0:06:45.040 I don't know if you if you watch rugby, it's 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:48.080 a bit like a rugby scrum, right, Um, you know 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.040 you're just you're just trying to get to the front, 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:52.000 trying to get the picture. And that was never going 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:55.160 to be my faulte. So that was never really what 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.200 I what I played too. But I think it's interesting 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:01.640 to talk about what gives a picture it's worth and 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:05.200 what makes it what makes a particular picture valuable because 0:07:05.320 --> 0:07:07.599 there's a there's a lot of things that play. The 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:13.400 first one is how newsworthy the event is. Right, So 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.120 if we think about celebrities as characters, I almost think 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:19.120 of it is a bit like WWF because it's a 0:07:19.160 --> 0:07:20.920 little bit made up, it's a little bit real, it's 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.160 a little bit and you've got to know, you know 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.760 what it is that that makes this particular person sellable? Right, 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:30.720 So you've got. So let's say we talk about the 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.880 British Royals. If they show up at a red carpet 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:37.640 event where they are opening, you know, a new theater 0:07:38.040 --> 0:07:41.560 or you know, some sort of event that is characteristic 0:07:41.600 --> 0:07:44.200 of what they would do, that is almost not worth 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.320 any money, and you almost won't. You might see it 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:48.760 in print tomorrow, but it's not going to sell for 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.160 a lot of money. Now, if they do something that 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.880 is out of character or something that they don't want 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.720 to be seen doing, those pictures are obviously worth a 0:07:57.760 --> 0:08:01.240 lot more. So it's it's got that story you But 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.040 the real interesting bit I think is what makes the 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.920 pictures valuable is not whether it's not so much what 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.120 the picture is of, it's it's how many people get 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.880 the picture. It's the exclusivity. So the market structure is, 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.880 on the one hand, you've got let's say in London, 0:08:17.120 --> 0:08:20.960 maybe fifty guys who are doing this right, and you've 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.280 got about six newspapers or so that would buy the 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:29.760 pictures tomorrow morning. So you've got an oligopsony buying the pictures. 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:33.080 And if you if you're fifty guys giving them the 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.679 same image, they have all of the market power, right, 0:08:36.840 --> 0:08:40.200 they can buy from any one of you, and somebody 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.480 might have a slightly different angle or might have a 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:45.920 slightly better expression on the face, but essentially you're then 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:50.440 selling a commoditized product. If, however, you are the only 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:53.960 one who gets the picture, the power shifts completely because 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.280 then you're running the monopoly and you've got six buyers 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.880 who we're going to be competing by selling to a 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:05.040 mass audience tomorrow. So that's what you're going for. I 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.720 almost think of it like, you know, there's this debate 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:11.760 about diamonds and water. Why is why is diamonds more 0:09:11.840 --> 0:09:15.240 valuable than than water? Well, it's about scarcity, and it's 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:19.200 exactly the same there, because if you can manufacture a 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.800 situation of scarcity, you've got a picture that sells for money. 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.920 So the way you the macro perspective through which you 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:30.320 describe the market is intuitive. A rare photo is better 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.360 than a normal photo, so it's celebrity doing something unusual 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:35.600 is more valuable if you're one of the only people 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:38.400 who has the photo, versus if the entire scrum is there, 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:41.920 that's more valuable, and so on. What is the precise 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.680 mechanism view which the sale is made because it's a 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.560 quasi auction process. You're describing how is the exact price 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:53.079 and deal set? As in most markets, there's there's a 0:09:53.120 --> 0:09:57.200 conception that in the pepparazzi business that the photographers make 0:09:57.200 --> 0:09:59.839 a lot of money. There are a handful of guys 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:05.400 do well and you know, lift slightly above I don't 0:10:05.400 --> 0:10:08.679 know the national average, but it's not it's not a 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.120 business that will make make a lot of money year 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:14.360 in year out, not for the photographers anyway. The guys 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:17.360 who make money out of it are the agencies. And 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.240 so what you would do is you as a photographer 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:25.880 would usually have an agent. So my my day usually 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:28.440 ended at four am, So four am I would go 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.960 back home or three am somewhere around that, round about 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.120 the time that the club's closed. The nightclubs close and 0:10:34.160 --> 0:10:36.760 people get kicked out. After that, I'll take my last pictures, 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:39.800 head on home and file it to my agent. And 0:10:39.840 --> 0:10:43.440 the agent um you know, would represent Let's say again, 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:48.080 there are about five or so big agencies. The business 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:50.760 is consolidated a little bit. I think guys like Getty 0:10:50.920 --> 0:10:53.800 and Rex and so one have bought up a lot 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:56.959 of a lot of other outlets. But basically they would 0:10:57.800 --> 0:10:59.720 that's when your agent gets to work. Some guy would 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:01.200 go and in the pictures for you. He would just 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.200 crop it straight and so on, and caption it. And 0:11:04.240 --> 0:11:07.800 if it's this kind of commoditized picture that everybody else 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:10.120 had it was a red carpet event, he would he 0:11:10.120 --> 0:11:11.720 would just go, he would caption it up, and they 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.040 would send it out on a newswire essentially on a newswire, 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:17.880 and and the newspapers would would be able to look 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:19.480 at this, and then they would they would buy it 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.800 straight off there and and in fact they set the price. 0:11:22.840 --> 0:11:25.439 And often you don't hear how much you're gonna get 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.760 paid for a picture until after it was after it 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:32.800 was in the publication, right, you have no bargaining power there. 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:38.360 But if you had exclusivity, the situation is obviously very different. 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:40.319 Then your agent would get to work. He would call 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.120 up the various news desks. He wouldn't necessarily in the 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:45.800 first instance, show them the pictures. He would just say, look, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:49.480 we have this set of pictures. Are you interested? And 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.320 it's it's actually quite interesting how that pans out, because 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:55.240 sometimes now it can take a whole news cycle, right, 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:58.240 so so so they would hear early in the morning 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:01.160 what you had yesterday where you got last night, so 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:05.440 the pictures won't get to the newspaper until the following day. 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:08.439 In the interim, he's had a discussion with various news 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.120 desks saying, this is what we have. So so I've 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.640 often asked the question, why don't these guys just go 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:19.680 and published, you know, the news anyway? Say, look, you know, 0:12:20.240 --> 0:12:23.000 ex celebrity got caught with a girl that he shouldn't 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:24.839 have been with, or with a guy who shouldn't have 0:12:24.920 --> 0:12:28.920 been with or whatever. But the reason they don't is because, 0:12:29.240 --> 0:12:31.240 if you're looking at it from a game theory perspective, 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:34.480 is because these are not one off games, right, So 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:38.560 that kind of forces it's the idea of honor amongst thieves. 0:12:38.600 --> 0:12:40.680 If if we were going to play this game once 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.120 and these guys and you just kind of, you know, 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:44.840 had a one off picture that you're going to sell 0:12:44.880 --> 0:12:48.040 to them, and they broke the news anyway, without you 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.360 selling the picture to them, they could, you know, they 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:52.760 could walk away and nothing's lost. But because I'm going 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:57.480 to keep bringing them new pictures, they won't cheat on 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.000 the game as it were. I love that we're talking 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:04.520 about game theory in the context of paparazzi. But any 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:08.679 you mentioned earlier this notion that a exclusive photo of 0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:10.920 photo that no one else had would be worth more 0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.800 than a commoditized one. In economics we talk all about 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:18.920 you know, supply and demand driving price. Was there, ever, 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.760 the temptation to create artificial scarcity for a photo? And 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.520 is that even possible? Right? Exactly, it does happen. So 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.240 the temptation is if if you're two photographers turning up 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:34.160 at the same you stumble on the same exclusive or 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.520 on the same picture. If you were to both sell 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.760 that picture and send it to separate agencies, we would 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.800 go from a picture that sells for tens of thousands 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.720 of pounds to a picture that sells for you know, 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:52.400 twenty thirty forty pounds tomorrow. So the temptation is always 0:13:52.520 --> 0:13:56.120 to work together. And again it's because these are not 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.640 people that are that inherently trust one another. It's just 0:14:00.080 --> 0:14:03.600 is it works in their favor by game theory, repeat 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.240 games and all of that stuff to file their pictures together, 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.560 and they often do. You will often see either the 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:13.920 two photographers would decide on their own two submit via 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:17.400 the same agency and split the money, or if they 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:19.800 don't have, if they don't both have relationship with the 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.720 same agency, for the agencies to sell the picture together. 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:27.440 I want to go back to something that you said 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:30.240 early on because I don't want to forget it. It 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:32.680 reminds me of a recent episode. We were talking to 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.880 Cameron christ here and he was talking about the scrum 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:40.480 in the Chicago trading pits and the importance of size 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.560 in that sort of jost and you mentioned in one 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.000 of your early answers that you're not all that tall. 0:14:47.080 --> 0:14:50.440 I am curious about some of the other attributes of 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.560 really good paparazzi, the degree to which sort of physicality 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:57.680 really matters in either being big enough to push people 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:00.280 out of the way or small enough to slide through 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:06.120 crowds to get that perfect shot. Yeah. Absolutely. I listened 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:07.520 to that episode and it was It was one of 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:09.800 my favorites because because I remember while I was working, 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:13.160 I used to think this, what I do feels a 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:18.920 lot like that kind of business, right, and so definitely, 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:24.320 but more than being big, what matters is being able 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:28.640 to recognize faces at a distance, so good eyesight, but 0:15:28.760 --> 0:15:33.800 also just knowing that the people the individuals very well, 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.960 so that that matters more because it's one thing to 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:40.960 push somebody out of the way, but it's a lot 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:45.200 easier to just be there first, right because the other guy, 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.320 you know, he may or may not be able to 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:49.360 push out of the way. So but I think I 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.760 think those are the key the key attributes. And for me, 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:54.960 what's why I always think that this wasn't such a 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.040 huge jump to wide of financial markets from the from 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.000 the Parati business is that it is about information and 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.480 it is all about knowing. So I talked about getting 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:08.560 to know the registration numbers for cars because I worked 0:16:08.560 --> 0:16:11.000 with Kate Moss a lot and with Amy Winehous a lot, 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:13.920 not worked with, but you know, photographed Amy Winehouse and 0:16:14.000 --> 0:16:17.960 Kate Moss a lot. And knowing where they live, knowing 0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:21.440 what times they go out, knowing what cars they drive, 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:23.720 and getting to know the drivers, and getting to go 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.360 know the guys at the nightclub, and being willing to 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.640 pay for information and those sorts of things. I think 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.080 in this grum situation, it matters being big, and it 0:16:34.120 --> 0:16:37.560 matters getting close up and so on, but you almost 0:16:37.600 --> 0:16:40.920 want to win before you get there. That's funny. It's 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:44.680 it's almost like like being at an investment bank and 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.640 being able to see client flows and having that edge 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:51.840 in making your own trading decisions. I'm curious, you know, 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.720 we're talking about a business model that I imagine changed 0:16:56.080 --> 0:16:59.080 quite a lot, maybe over the time that you were working, 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:04.080 but certainly then nowadays everyone has their own digital camera 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:08.240 via their phones, for instance, how has the business model 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:11.840 changed either while you were working um in it or 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.600 since then. I trained on film photography and I joined 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:19.040 when digital photography was just kind of you know, in 0:17:19.080 --> 0:17:22.600 the early early two thousands, just this digital photography was 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:25.560 really taking off and was good enough to be used 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:27.639 at that level, and I think that that made it 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:31.320 that had a huge impact because it it really lowered 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:35.080 the h skill set that you that you had to 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:37.680 have to get into the industry. But but you're right, 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.760 it's not just that, it's it's it's the publication models 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:45.840 has changed completely. Once a picture has been placed on 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.480 a website, once it's gone and everybody else on the 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.320 web can tweet that picture they downloaded straight away, They don't, 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.240 you know, repeat sales have fallen off a cliff, and 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.440 it it has forced the industy to consolidate a lot, 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.480 you know, so you've you've seen a lot of agencies 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.000 either go under or sell out to the big guys 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:11.080 or so on. Yeah, definitely, the industry is is still 0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:15.280 struggling to catch up with it. But that's made having 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:18.760 exclusivity even more important because you cannot bank on those 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:20.960 repeat sales. I know, in the old days, they were 0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:25.560 the older guys, I used to think of their picture library, 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:29.800 you know, as their retirement policy, because the pictures would 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.040 keep paying. Like it's a lot like the like the 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.720 music industry, Your your backlog of of works will keep selling. 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:39.359 But nowadays that's just no longer the case. You just 0:18:39.400 --> 0:18:43.439 don't see people coming back and buying those those old images. Eddie. 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:45.520 I don't know if it was a slip, but you 0:18:45.720 --> 0:18:48.919 talked about working with Amy Winehouse and then you said, oh, 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:51.199 we didn't really work together. You took Now what I 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.159 meant was so, But I wondered when I heard that 0:18:54.880 --> 0:19:00.639 about the symbiotic relationship between the paparazzi and a celebrities. So, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:03.359 you know, the sort of cliche is that the celebrities 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:07.000 try to avoid the paparati, but obviously the paparazi are 0:19:07.280 --> 0:19:11.920 key to bolstering their um, their celebrities. So I'm curious 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:15.679 about the degree to which you start to establish a 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:20.640 rapport relationship or with the people that you cover. Right, Yeah, 0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.199 it's it's it's quite interesting, actually, I mean it is. 0:19:24.280 --> 0:19:29.880 It's a bit like like wrestling or or a pantomime 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.480 was something where the pepparazzi play the villain, play the 0:19:32.480 --> 0:19:37.320 bad guy. But but it is absolutely symbiotic, and very 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:40.359 often the information about where the celebrity is going to 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.520 be comes from the celebrity. Very often the celebrity that 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.400 would tip you off, right, and you kind of get 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:48.760 three kind of strata of people that you that you 0:19:48.800 --> 0:19:51.560 deal with in the industry, and the guys at the 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.320 bottom will come out of a nightclub and they will 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.960 spot you and they will come over to you and 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:59.000 they will try and strike up a conversation and try 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.000 and get you to photo raft them. And that's fine, 0:20:01.000 --> 0:20:03.119 and you'll do it, and you know, and you'll submit it. 0:20:03.200 --> 0:20:04.760 You know, you're not going to sell a picture, but 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:07.399 they because they're building a brand, they are they will pose, 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:09.800 They will pose kisses for you. They will do anything 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.159 that you'd like them to do. If they then a 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:14.800 couple of years later, they've made it and people know 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:18.199 who they are, and and then they completely shun you. 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:20.840 They're almost a little bit nasty when they when they 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:22.320 when they're in front of you, because they want to 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.680 show that they do not need you, right. And then 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.040 the complete A listers, the Madonnas of this world and 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:32.399 so on, they're completely professional. They see it as a 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:34.320 part of their job. They will come out of the 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.159 other the night the nightclub or wherever it is, and 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.840 they will look straight down the camera at you, but 0:20:40.920 --> 0:20:43.920 they won't engage with you. They won't do anything that 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.240 they weren't going to do anyway. They would just carry 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.120 on with their business, almost as if you weren't there. 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:53.000 But they're also they're also a lot more polite than you, 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:55.440 than than the than the the kind of mid tier. 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.320 It's it's really interesting to see to see how people's 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:02.159 reactions change with time. It's the smile right at the 0:21:02.240 --> 0:21:05.760 long end and the short end there's a positive interaction 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:09.119 and its belly of the curve where you have the 0:21:09.160 --> 0:21:14.240 sort of right right right Eddie. I have to ask, 0:21:15.080 --> 0:21:16.879 was there ever a photo that you took that you 0:21:16.960 --> 0:21:19.879 felt guilty about for the do you know? For the 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:24.640 most part, no, so I kind of see it as 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:29.320 for the most part, most people sign up for this 0:21:29.640 --> 0:21:34.880 right and they actively seek fame. You know, there are 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:38.960 a lot of good places in London that you could 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:42.199 go out and have dinner and not be photographed by 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:44.919 the paparazzi. And there are a handful of places that 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:49.080 you know, you're definitely going to go and be photographed 0:21:49.080 --> 0:21:50.359 if you if you come out, there's going to be 0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:54.240