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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let

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Speaker 2: you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode

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Speaker 2: of the week that just happened is here in one

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Speaker 2: convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to

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Speaker 2: listen to in a long stretch if you want. If

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Speaker 2: you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 2: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 2: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 3: Welcome to Dick It Up and Here, a podcast about

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Speaker 3: things falling apart and putting it back together again. I'm

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Speaker 3: Mia Wong, I'm with Garrison and it is my singular

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Speaker 3: honor and pleasure to introduce our guest, doctor Julia Serrano.

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Speaker 3: She is the author of many books, excluded Making Feminist

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Speaker 3: and queer movements more Inclusive, Sex Stop, How Society Sexualizes us,

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Speaker 3: and how we can fight back Outspoken, a Decade of

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Speaker 3: transgender activism and Transfeminism, and most famously Whipping Girl, a

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Speaker 3: new edition of which is coming out in March. Doctor Serrano,

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Speaker 3: welcome to the show.

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Speaker 1: Hi, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really really I'm really happy you can join us. So, okay,

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Speaker 3: Whipping Girl, I think is really one of quietly the

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Speaker 3: most influential books of the twenty first century, to the

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Speaker 3: extent that in kind of classic trans woman fashion, I

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Speaker 3: don't think. I don't think people realize that the ideas

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Speaker 3: that it introduced have an origin. So for people who

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Speaker 3: haven't read the book, and you should, this book is great.

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Speaker 3: I guarantee you have seen its influence. If you've ever

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Speaker 3: heard someone like who's not trans referred to as sis, like,

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Speaker 3: that's that's from this book. The concept of misgendering is

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Speaker 3: also from this book. The word trans misogyny like also

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Speaker 3: from this book. And this I think gets at something

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Speaker 3: from the twenty fifteen second edition preface that you wrote,

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Speaker 3: which is something I've been wondering about, is what is

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Speaker 3: it like to sort of experience writing a book and

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Speaker 3: have it just ripple across society like this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's uh.

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Speaker 4: I was very much hoping and you know, as I

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Speaker 4: was writing it, I was hoping that I thought that

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Speaker 4: it would resonate with a lot of trans female and

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Speaker 4: trans feminine people and I hope trans communities more generally,

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Speaker 4: and the book this is something that a lot of

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Speaker 4: times people who pick up the book now, in like

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Speaker 4: the twenty twenties don't necessarily realize is that nobody was

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Speaker 4: reading anything about trans people outside of feminists and LGBTQ

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Speaker 4: plus communities, and so I was basically just speaking to

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Speaker 4: those groups, and I thought it would resonate with some people.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, definitely, it kind of went out into the

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Speaker 4: world and did a bunch of stuff that I wasn't

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Speaker 4: necessarily expecting. And I'm very glad that the book has

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Speaker 4: kind of touched a lot of people's lives and changed,

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Speaker 4: you know.

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Speaker 1: Kind of societal.

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Speaker 4: Understanding and quote unquote discourses about trans people.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, it it must be kind of bizarre, like

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Speaker 5: being twenty years ago writing about you know, caniche term

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Speaker 5: like cis and now the richest man in the world

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Speaker 5: thinks it's like the most evil word.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's quite bizarre, and I do want to definitely

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Speaker 4: kind of clear this up, but I kind of make

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Speaker 4: this clear in the preface. So I didn't invet like

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Speaker 4: sis versus trans like a that's like a prefix that

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Speaker 4: has existed a long time. Yeah, and uh, I've since

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Speaker 4: seen other people like point out, oh, this person was

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Speaker 4: using it in nineteen ninety something, or some German writer

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Speaker 4: like coined cis vestism or something like back a million

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Speaker 4: years ago. So what I will say is that when

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Speaker 4: I when I put out the book, I was inspired

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Speaker 4: by Emi.

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Speaker 1: Koyama, who was and is an awesome.

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Speaker 4: Activist intersex activists, who who's written a lot of really

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Speaker 4: influential trans related essays over the years. And it was

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Speaker 4: from her blog that was the first time I saw

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Speaker 4: SIS and trans and the idea of SIS sexism.

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Speaker 1: And at the time, it was while I was.

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Speaker 4: Writing the book, and it really I was like, oh

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Speaker 4: my god, this is kind of the overall idea. I

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Speaker 4: was talking about all these different facets of basically double

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Speaker 4: standards between trans and non trans people, and so I

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Speaker 4: kind of grabbed on to it, and I was really

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Speaker 4: worried about it actually because nobody, almost nobody was using

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Speaker 4: those terms. It was very niche at the time, and

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Speaker 4: so the book popularized that language. And so now it

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Speaker 4: is kind of funny every once in a while seeing

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Speaker 4: yes overreactions by SIS people to the idea of SIS

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Speaker 4: being a slur or whatever. So yeah, and so yeah,

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Speaker 4: so that's definitely something that is kind of is the

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Speaker 4: one thing I one thing I did coin in the

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Speaker 4: book that has kind of also taken a life on

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Speaker 4: its own is trans misogyny.

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Speaker 1: So that is something that kind of originated with.

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Speaker 4: This book and particularly a chap book that I wrote

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Speaker 4: in two thousand and five that some of.

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Speaker 1: Those essays became chapters of the book.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, and so there are other ideas that kind

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Speaker 4: of are out there, Like I think it was one

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Speaker 4: of the first I think it was the first book

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Speaker 4: to talk about like the idea of sis privilege. Misgendering

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Speaker 4: as an idea was out there, but I kind of

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Speaker 4: dove into it a little bit deeper. So yeah, so

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Speaker 4: there are definitely things I was doing at the time

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Speaker 4: that I didn't know whether they'd be to abstract or

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Speaker 4: how they'd be taken up.

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Speaker 1: And so, yes, it's been very interesting.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wanted to talk about misgendering a bit because

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Speaker 3: I think it's become this word that just means not

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Speaker 3: saying someone's pronouns correctly. And I think that's at the

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Speaker 3: very best, like an incredibly reductionist and of simplified version

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Speaker 3: of the analysis that you were presenting. So I guess

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Speaker 3: I have two questions here. One, can you briefly sort

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Speaker 3: of talk about what you were trying to get at

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Speaker 3: when you sort of did your analysis of the process

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Speaker 3: of gendering, And two, what do you think about the

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Speaker 3: way that it's kind of become flattened into this I

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Speaker 3: don't know, kind of weirdly narrow thing in modern discourse.

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Speaker 4: Sure, and a lot of the misgendering definitely dovetails with

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Speaker 4: the idea of passing, and a lot of my kind

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Speaker 4: of diving into it in a particular way came from

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Speaker 4: critiques that I had and other trans people had as well,

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Speaker 4: but I kind of, you know, put them together in

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Speaker 4: a particularly in the Dismantling I think it's dismantling sexual

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Speaker 4: Privileged chapter where I kind of go through all these

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Speaker 4: steps that lead to miss gendering, because I think people

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Speaker 4: talk about trans people passing and also the people will

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Speaker 4: talk about other marginalized groups passing is whatever dominant majority group.

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Speaker 4: The term obviously had long been used with regards to

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Speaker 4: people of color passing as white and in kind of

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Speaker 4: white racist you know, us and other societies. So it's

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Speaker 4: an old term, and a big problem with it is

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Speaker 4: that it makes it sound like we're doing something active,

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Speaker 4: that trans people are actively trying to deceive other people.

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Speaker 1: With huge scare quotes around the word deceive.

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Speaker 4: And I really wanted to highlight to people that actually

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Speaker 4: all of us very unconsciously and very compulsively gender every

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Speaker 4: single person we meet, or at least that's how we're

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Speaker 4: socialized to be. And you know, you can work towards

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Speaker 4: getting you know, overcoming that, but I wanted to really

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Speaker 4: highlight the fact that we see people, we automatically gender them,

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Speaker 4: and that puts people who do not quite who your

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Speaker 4: presumptions are wrong about. It puts us in difficult situations.

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Speaker 4: It's a double bind where do you reveal what you

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Speaker 4: supposedly really are or do you just allow people to

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Speaker 4: read you that way? And it works out very differently,

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Speaker 4: for instance, between trans and say CIS gay people, because

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Speaker 4: when CIS gay people talk about passing as straight. Their

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Speaker 4: passing is something that they know that they are not,

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Speaker 4: Whereas for a lot of trans people, people read me

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Speaker 4: as a woman and I understand myself to be a woman.

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Speaker 4: There's it's a very different dynamic because it's not like

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Speaker 4: I'm not hiding anything, but people are presuming what I'm

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Speaker 4: really passing as is I'm passing a CIS gender and

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Speaker 4: people are assuming I'm sis gender when the trans is

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Speaker 4: the thing that I might need to or feel like

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Speaker 4: I need to clear up, or other people might put

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Speaker 4: pressure on me to either tell them that I'm trans

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Speaker 4: or be accused of deceiving them. So that's a little

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Speaker 4: bit of kind of how I was approaching it when

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Speaker 4: I started working on that idea and really stressing the

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Speaker 4: idea of you can't understand miss gendering unless you understand

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Speaker 4: that we make assumptions all the time, we gender people

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Speaker 4: very actively, and you know, so trans people are often

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Speaker 4: just reacting to that and dealing with that double bind.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is something that I think is interestingly

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Speaker 3: discussed in the book about like kind of this this

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Speaker 3: issue with some with some of the sort of prevailing

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Speaker 3: gender theories, which thought of which to think about sort

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Speaker 3: of like femininity and gender is pure performance. But you know,

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Speaker 3: and this is I think, like the argument that you

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Speaker 3: were making that I think is really interesting is that

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Speaker 3: something that I think is is very obvious to trans

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Speaker 3: people is that so much of gender is how people

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Speaker 3: perceive you and how you know and stuff that like

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Speaker 3: you don't have any control over. It's how people sort

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Speaker 3: of gender you. It's how people like construct a gender

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Speaker 3: around you in ways that you don't really have control over.

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Speaker 4: M yeah, and that was a big thing. So in

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Speaker 4: kind of I was writing the book in the mid

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Speaker 4: two thousands, and so the nineteen ninety is when Judith

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Speaker 4: Butler publishes Gender Trouble, which Butler never said all genders

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Speaker 4: performance are all genders drag, Yeah, but that is, but

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Speaker 4: that those are like slogans or sound bites that other

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Speaker 4: people took from their book, right, and they were very

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Speaker 4: popular at the time. There's also there's a famous sociological

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Speaker 4: article about doing gender, and so people were very focused

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Speaker 4: on the way in which we create gender by doing

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Speaker 4: it particular ways, and a lot of the slogans within

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Speaker 4: trans communities were sort of like, oh, well, you know,

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Speaker 4: I just have to do my gender differently, like more transgressively,

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Speaker 4: and that will like tear down all of gender. And

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Speaker 4: I felt that there was you know, that is an

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Speaker 4: aspect of things. And most of us, whether trans or cists,

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Speaker 4: most of us have had the experience of maybe trying

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Speaker 4: to perform our genders in a particular way in order

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Speaker 4: to like, you know, not you know, in order in

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Speaker 4: order to get by in the world, in order to

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Speaker 4: not be harassed by other people.

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Speaker 1: So we've all had that experience. So while that's true, there's.

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Speaker 4: The other partner of that dance, and that's perception, and

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Speaker 4: we're all perceiving people very actively, and we're like projecting

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Speaker 4: our ideas and meanings onto them. And I felt like

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Speaker 4: that was being under discussed at the time, and that

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Speaker 4: was not only a huge part of Whipping Girl, but

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Speaker 4: that's become a part of a lot of my other books,

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Speaker 4: like including my most recent book, sext Up, How Society

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Speaker 4: Sexualizes us and how we can fight back. One way

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Speaker 4: that I would describe that book is it's talking about

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Speaker 4: sex and sexuality not from what people do, but from

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Speaker 4: how we perceive and interpret sex and sexuality, because there

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Speaker 4: are a lot of unconscious ideas, often really horrible ideas,

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Speaker 4: really hierarchical ideas that are kind of built into the

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Speaker 4: way we view the world. And interrogating that and so yeah,

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Speaker 4: that was a very big part of both of The

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Speaker 4: Been Girl and then my writings since then.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I think that is something where things

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Speaker 3: have gotten better in terms of in terms of how

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Speaker 3: we think about gender, which I don't know, like things

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Speaker 3: aren't perfect, but it definitely it definitely improved things.

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Speaker 1: A lot agreed We're going.

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Speaker 3: To take an ad break, and when we come back,

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Speaker 3: we're talking trans misogyny. We're back. Yeah. So the other

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Speaker 3: thing I wanted to sort of talk about was I think,

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Speaker 3: in like exactly the opposite process that happened to misgendering,

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Speaker 3: trans misogyny has become a lot more expansive than your

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Speaker 3: original sort of kind of narrow conception of it. And

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Speaker 3: I think this has been changing a lot, especially in

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Speaker 3: the last about half decade or so. So I was

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Speaker 3: wondering what you think about the way that this concept

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Speaker 3: has kind of taken on a life of its own

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Speaker 3: in recent years and what it's been doing since.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So I feel like trans misogyny that there are a

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Speaker 4: lot of different dialogues and discourses about it coming, like

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Speaker 4: people coming from different perspectives with it, and some people

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Speaker 4: feeling like the world is doing things that I never

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Speaker 4: suggested it was doing. It's kind of hard to know

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Speaker 4: like where to actually come in on this, But for me,

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Speaker 4: when I was first writing about it, I was first

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Speaker 4: just noticing that a lot of the quote unquote transphobia

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Speaker 4: that I was facing when people know as a trans

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Speaker 4: woman was actually a lot of it was just misogyny,

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Speaker 4: and a lot of it targeted like kind of my

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Speaker 4: femininity rather than my transness, and so I wanted to

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Speaker 4: write about that, and kind of the way that I

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Speaker 4: framed it in the book was, which I think is

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Speaker 4: a really useful kind of model for thinking about it,

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Speaker 4: is that there most of the types of sexism that

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Speaker 4: feminists have described over the many years fall into two

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Speaker 4: sort of camps, one of them being oppositional sexism, which

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Speaker 4: is the idea that men and women are kind of

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Speaker 4: perfectly opposite, mutually exclusive sexes that have different interests and

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Speaker 4: attributes and desires, and so a lot of transphobia and

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Speaker 4: homophobia are kind of like built into this idea that

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Speaker 4: men and women are completely distinct. And then the other

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Speaker 4: one is traditional sexism, which is the idea that femalists

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Speaker 4: and femininity are less legitimate than malness and masculinity. And

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Speaker 4: a lot of cis feminists have kind of viewed all

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Speaker 4: of that as just sexism, right, But when you break

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Speaker 4: it down like that, it makes it clear that the

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Speaker 4: double bind that a lot of feminists have talked about

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Speaker 4: is actually kind of these two different forms of sexism.

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Speaker 4: So if assis woman acts appropriately femininely so appropriate with

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Speaker 4: scare quotes. If a SIS woman acts femininely, she'll be

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Speaker 4: seen as appropriate, but she'll be dismissed because femininity is

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Speaker 4: dismissed in our culture. So that's the way that she'll

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Speaker 4: be delegitimized. Whereas if she acts in ways that are

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Speaker 4: coded as masculine, if she acts assertive or aggressive, then

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Speaker 4: people will malign her for being kind of a barrant

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Speaker 4: or deviant. Right, and so oppositional sexism helps keep traditional

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Speaker 4: sexism in place because you can say that maln is

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Speaker 4: and masculinity are superior, but that only works if you

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Speaker 4: can also make a clear distinction between you know, those

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Speaker 4: people and people are female and feminine. And so I

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Speaker 4: think this plays out differently. And I want to be

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Speaker 4: really clear about this because some people have interpreted trans

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Speaker 4: misogyny to mean that transmeild trans masculine people don't experience misogyny,

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Speaker 4: which is something I've never said, and obviously the fact

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Speaker 4: that oppositional sexism is a form of sexism, and obviously

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Speaker 4: transmeild transmasculine people experience that. But also depending upon how

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Speaker 4: you're viewed by other people, I feel like the same

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Speaker 4: double pind that affects this woman affects transmeild trans masculine

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Speaker 4: people differently, where there's this tendency, like in a lot

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Speaker 4: of anti trans discourses to dismiss transmasculine, especially transmasculine youth

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Speaker 4: as being merely girls quote unquote who are like, you know,

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Speaker 4: misled or seduced by gender ideology, right, And there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of real anti feminine and anti misogynistic ideas in

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Speaker 4: there in addition to the fact that it misgenders.

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Speaker 1: Transmeld transmasculine people.

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Speaker 4: Then if trans mail trans masculine people, when when they

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Speaker 4: experience transphobia, there's often you know, like they're scene as

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Speaker 4: deviant for kind of breaking that role, but often the

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Speaker 4: maleness or their masculinity themselves are not, you know, denigrated

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Speaker 4: in the same way because being male, being masculine are

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Speaker 4: seen as good in our culture. It's just that if

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Speaker 4: you trans male, trans masculine, it's like, well, you're quote

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Speaker 4: unquote just a woman, so you can't do it. So

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Speaker 4: I think it plays out in this very you know,

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Speaker 4: complex way for a lot of trans mail trans masculine people,

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Speaker 4: I think for trans female and transfeminine people, because our

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Speaker 4: crossing of oppositional sexism also involves us kind of moving

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Speaker 4: towards the female, towards the feminine, that there's kind of

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Speaker 4: those two forces intersect in a way so that it's

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Speaker 4: like exacerbated. And some of the ways I talk about

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Speaker 4: this in Women Girl is that, well, we live in

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Speaker 4: a world where masculinity is seen as natural and femininity

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Speaker 4: is seen as artificial, and since trans people are also

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Speaker 4: seen as artificial compared to sis gender people, a lot

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Speaker 4: of times we're viewed as doubly artificial. Furthermore, the idea

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Speaker 4: that women are seen as sex objects whereas men aren't

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Speaker 4: seen as sex objects often are transitions or gender transgressions

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Speaker 4: towards a female towards a feminine are presumed to be

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Speaker 4: driven by sexual motives that can play out in all

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Speaker 4: sorts of ways. Whether this is the idea that we're

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Speaker 4: like hypersexual or promiscuous, or that we want to be

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Speaker 4: sexualized by other people, or you can see it a

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Speaker 4: lot with the kind of the transgender predator is often

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Speaker 4: coded as like a man who either has some kind

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Speaker 4: of fetish or perversion or is just literally deceiving people

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Speaker 4: to get into women's restrooms to do something horrific. So

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Speaker 4: those are some of the ways that it plays out.

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Speaker 4: I feel that sometimes people view it in a cut

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Speaker 4: or dried way that either they'll assume that trans misogyny

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Speaker 4: means that trans montal, trans masculine people don't experience misogyny,

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Speaker 4: which again is not what that's about. Or sometimes people

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Speaker 4: will like try to make really clear distinctions. There's kind

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Speaker 4: of language like trans misogyny affected versus trans misogyny exempt.

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Speaker 1: Are the terms yeah.

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Speaker 4: TME and TMA, which are not terms I've used and

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Speaker 4: which or that I didn't coin them.

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Speaker 1: They're not in the book.

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Speaker 4: And I think that when I first saw that language,

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Speaker 4: and I've seen people use it in a way that

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Speaker 4: appreciates the fact that some people are non binary, so

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Speaker 4: it's a non identity based a way.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes this can play out in a really cut or

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Speaker 1: dried sort of manner that.

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Speaker 4: You know, sometimes you know, whether it's intended this way

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Speaker 4: or not, it can make it seem that, like, you know,

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Speaker 4: just boiling down a really complex experience, people's complex experiences

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Speaker 4: with different types of sexism into some people are privileged

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Speaker 4: and some people are marginalized, which I think is a

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Speaker 4: more general problem that happens kind of throughout all social

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Speaker 4: justice movements, so yeah.

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Speaker 5: And trans people are not alien to having complex experiences

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Speaker 5: be boiled down to three and four letter acronyms, so.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I mean I.

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Speaker 4: Did this in Twitter form, so it was like a thread,

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Speaker 4: so like now people can't access threads unless you.

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Speaker 1: Have an account with Twitter. And it's from a couple

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Speaker 1: of years ago.

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Speaker 4: But one of the things that I talked about was

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Speaker 4: I wrote this essay about ten years ago about how

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Speaker 4: CIS and trans is kind of a useful Those are

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Speaker 4: useful terms, but sometimes people fall in between CIS and trans,

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Speaker 4: and sometimes they can be used in a way to

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Speaker 4: talk about different double standards, like CIS people are treated

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Speaker 4: one way, trans people are treated another.

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Speaker 1: But sometimes it can be used in.

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Speaker 4: Like a sort of reverse discourse way where it's like,

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Speaker 4: you know, SIS people of all the privilege, trans people

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Speaker 4: of none of the privilege, and it can be used

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Speaker 4: to kind of create this strict dichotomy that ends up

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Speaker 4: excluding and invisibilizing some people's experiences. And I feel the

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Speaker 4: same thing as happening with TMME and TMA. So I

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Speaker 4: don't think that those terms need to necessarily be like,

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Speaker 4: I don't think there's anything bad about those terms per

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Speaker 4: se in and of themselves, but I think sometimes they

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Speaker 4: can be used in ways. And part of why I

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Speaker 4: reference this the SYS and trans essay that I wrote

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Speaker 4: many years ago. It appears in my book Outspoken. I

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Speaker 4: forget the complete title right now, which is but the

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Speaker 4: reason why I bring that up is so sometimes what

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Speaker 4: happens is that when people learn about SIS sexism, SIS

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Speaker 4: people might be like, oh, I face the sexism right.

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Speaker 4: If I'm a woman and I don't shave my legs,

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Speaker 4: I'm facing se sexism. And so then trans people say, yeah,

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Speaker 4: but it kind of plays out differently for us, And

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Speaker 4: so sometimes in order to stop people from kind of

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Speaker 4: making those claims, which I think it is true that

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Speaker 4: you know, a woman not shaving their legs, or if

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Speaker 4: a man decides to put on a dress one day,

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Speaker 4: regardless of whether they're SIS or trans, they could experience

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Speaker 4: sis sexism or transphobia, but it plays out differently for

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Speaker 4: people who are actually members of that marginalized group. And then

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Speaker 4: so then the marginalized group makes a distinction even sharper,

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Speaker 4: and it just kind of becomes this uh, escalating situation

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Speaker 4: where the language and kind of battles over it become

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Speaker 4: even more intense in a recent piece, one of the

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Speaker 4: most recent pieces, if you go to like my medium

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Speaker 4: site where my essays as we are now is, it

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Speaker 4: talks about the trans mass versus trans discourse in terms

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Speaker 4: of what I call the cultural feminist doom loop, where

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Speaker 4: the doom loop refers to kind of these ideas where

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Speaker 4: everyone like both sides are trying to talk about the

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Speaker 4: reason why their experiences are legitimate, and then that seems

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Speaker 4: as though the other sides are not legitimate, and then

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Speaker 4: that kind of cascades in a way that ends up

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Speaker 4: not being very productive but takes up.

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Speaker 1: A lot of energy on places like Twitter.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think I think that's something we've still

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Speaker 3: seen about one trillion times, variety of toxic ways. But

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Speaker 3: what isn't toxic is the new third edition of Whipping

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Speaker 3: Girl coming out in March with you can ask your

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Speaker 3: local bookstore or pre order now. And Yeah join us

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Speaker 3: tomorrow for our discussion with doctor Serrano of the Anatomy.

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Speaker 1: Of Moral Panics.

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Speaker 3: This has been a could happen here. Trans people are great,

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Speaker 3: welcome to it could happen here. I'm your host, Mia Long.

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Speaker 3: I am happy to be here once again with Garrison

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Speaker 3: Davis and doctor Julius Serrano, the author of, among many

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Speaker 3: other works, a new edition of Whipping Girl coming out

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Speaker 3: in March, so kind of pivoting a bit. One of

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Speaker 3: the really bleak aspects of being trans in a hostile

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Speaker 3: world is that we've we've effectively been forced to become

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Speaker 3: experts in the architects of our own extermination. And I

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Speaker 3: think that's a lot of what kind of the new

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Speaker 3: afterward to the upcoming twenty twenty four to thirty edition

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Speaker 3: of Whipping Girl is about. So, I guess I wanted

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Speaker 3: to ask, what do you see as the biggest shifts

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Speaker 3: in sort of the struggle for transliberation beat between the

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Speaker 3: end of the sort of Mitchfest like fighting overrom Mitchfest

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Speaker 3: era that you wrote like Dream, which you sort of

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Speaker 3: wrote the second the forward, the preface of the second edition,

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Speaker 3: and then the stuff that's happening now is the sort

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Speaker 3: of third edition is coming out.

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Speaker 4: Sure, I think a huge aspect of transactivism from my

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Speaker 4: perspective of like first coming to trans communities in the nineties,

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Speaker 4: a lot of nineties and Zero's era transactivism was overcoming

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Speaker 4: basically people's ignorance, their lack of awareness about trans people

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Speaker 4: and so and this is one of the things that

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Speaker 4: you know, Whipping Girl, for example, there are a lot

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Speaker 4: of bad ideas about trans people that had been circling,

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Speaker 4: lating for a long time, especially with the culmination of

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Speaker 4: Janis Raymond's book The Transsexual Empire the late nineteen seventies

435
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,120
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy nine, I think, and that influenced a lot

436
00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 4: of people that say, places like Mishfest that had trans

437
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 4: women exclusion policies. And I felt like during the nineties

438
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 4: through the Zeros, we were constantly making gains that was

439
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 4: largely due to people learning more about us and then

440
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 4: recognizing basically shared goals, shared things in common. I think

441
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 4: that trans people are marginalized because of you know, mainstream

442
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,919
Speaker 4: assumptions about sex, gender sexuality, and those assumptions also hurt

443
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,639
Speaker 4: LGBTQIA plus people more broadly, they hurt you know, in

444
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 4: a sexist world, they hurt you know, cis women, you know,

445
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 4: all women, all people who move through the world perceived

446
00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 4: as female feminine.

447
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 1: So we all have this kind of shared thing that

448
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: we're working.

449
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 4: Towards, and I feel like that was where a lot

450
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 4: of the progress was happening. And I think what really

451
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 4: changed in the mid two thousand tens, especially two year

452
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:58,240
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen, which is literally the year after the so

453
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 4: called tipping point time age declaring the transgender dipping point

454
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:06,240
Speaker 4: was when it was the beginning of what I would

455
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 4: describe as organized anti transactivism, where it wasn't just that

456
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 4: people didn't like us or they detested us, but it

457
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 4: was where there was actual coordination between different groups. In

458
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 4: the afterward, I describe there's the social conservatives and far

459
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 4: right who have always been anti LGBTQ plus who took

460
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 4: an even more intense focus on trans people.

461
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 1: There were groups that at.

462
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,119
Speaker 4: The time that I wrote Whipping Girl, the term turf

463
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 4: wasn't around, of the term gender critical wasn't around. Now

464
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 4: we would call them gender critical or trans exclusionary feminists.

465
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 4: They've become kind of a part of that, and both

466
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,640
Speaker 4: those groups working together.

467
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 1: In a lot of ways on policies.

468
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 4: I think one of the things that the average person

469
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 4: might not know, if you're not like really in kind

470
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 4: of highly aware of trans communities and issues, is that

471
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 4: probably behind the scenes, the anti transparent movement has probably

472
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 4: made more of an impact than any other group, and

473
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 4: they are very much like the anti vax parent movement,

474
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 4: where it's a lot of people who are from their standpoint,

475
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 4: they're just concerned about their children, they want what's best

476
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 4: for their children, but they actively seek out and often

477
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 4: get involved in you know, websites, social media forums and

478
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 4: sometimes actual activist campaigns that buy into a lot of

479
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 4: ideas that of children being indoctrinated into gender ideology or

480
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 4: being infected by social contagion. And there's all this pseudoscience

481
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,959
Speaker 4: that rose out of that. So I would say that

482
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 4: that was the main difference, that there's this organized campaign,

483
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 4: and this campaign has just grown and grown and grown

484
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 4: to the point now where it's just this astoundingly large

485
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 4: moral panic that the types of things that like thirty

486
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 4: percent of people in our country believe about trans people

487
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 4: is abhorrent.

488
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: But that's kind of how it played out.

489
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there's there's been a lot of a

490
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,480
Speaker 3: lot of very common, weird pseudoscience myths that sort of

491
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: came out of that. I wanted to talk a little

492
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 3: bit about quote unquote rapid onset gender dysphoria because that's

493
00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 3: been all over the place. Me There's like a New

494
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,520
Speaker 3: York Times article talking about it, like two weeks ago,

495
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 3: and it's I don't know, really been a fiasco, especially

496
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: given how unbelievably tenuous the stuff they sort of faked

497
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 3: or not as say fake, like unbelievably tenuous to like

498
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: quote unquote study they did that got retracted.

499
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 4: Was Yeah, and this is something that I actually saw

500
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 4: developing firsthand and then did research on in twenty nineteen.

501
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: So let me frame this.

502
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 4: I'll tell like my personal a short version of my

503
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,160
Speaker 4: oral history of this.

504
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: So it was around.

505
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 4: Twenty seventeen that I first heard the idea of children,

506
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 4: you know, becoming trans because of social contagion. And it

507
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,560
Speaker 4: just seemed to come out of the blue. And it's like, what,

508
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 4: you know, it's gender identity is not contagious. If it was, like,

509
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 4: you know, trans people would have infected way more than

510
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 4: like the less than one percent of us that actually exists.

511
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 5: Not a very effective contagious go yees rising like no,

512
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 5: like yes, yeah, exactly.

513
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 4: It's like, once you start looking at it, it seems

514
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 4: kind of ridiculous. A lot of it was because well,

515
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 4: you know, you know, my kid was hanging around a

516
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 4: transpersoner started watching videos on YouTube, and now they're trans.

517
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, well, maybe they.

518
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 4: Were hanging out with that trans friend and watching the

519
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,040
Speaker 4: YouTube videos because they are trans and they just hadn't

520
00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 4: come out yet, or they're just they're still figuring.

521
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: It out anyway. So in twenty eighteen.

522
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 4: Is when the Lisa Littmann paper on rapid on set

523
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 4: gender dysphoria came out, and I wrote this essay at

524
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 4: the time talking about all the things wrong with it.

525
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 4: And then in twenty nineteen, I'm like, where did these

526
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 4: ideas come from? And I should say that rap it

527
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 4: onset gender dysphoria is basically transgender social contagion wrapped up

528
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 4: in a medical sounding diagnosis.

529
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 1: Okay, so if you read.

530
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 4: The initial descriptions of transgender social contagion and the description

531
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,000
Speaker 4: of rapid onset gender dysphoria, they're basically the same. It's

532
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 4: that kids are infecting one another. But the idea of

533
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 4: rap it on set gender dysphoria was meant to describe

534
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 4: this quick infection of transness that supposedly was happening, and

535
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 4: sowenty nineteen, I basically did a deep dive. I'm not

536
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 4: an investigative reporter, but that's kind of what I did

537
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 4: into like, where the origin of this was, And basically

538
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 4: all of this kind of came down to the website

539
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 4: Fourth Wave Now, which often worked in coordination with two

540
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 4: other anti transparent websites. So Fourth Wave Now is an

541
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 4: anti transparent website, arguably the very first one that came out,

542
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 4: and a parent posted the idea that her child was

543
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 4: like being infected by transgender social contagion, and it's almost

544
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 4: definitely clear. Now I will leave a little caveat even

545
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 4: though I think the evidence is pretty strong that that

546
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 4: was Lisa Marciano, who's anti trans therapist, who's very very

547
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 4: involved in anti transactivism right now, Okay, so and like

548
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 4: all everything points to that being her, and she also

549
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 4: seems to have in some capacity worked with Lisa Littman.

550
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 4: So basically the first paper about rapet on sitt gender

551
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 4: distory that came out was not Lisa Littman's, it was

552
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 4: actually Lisa Marchiano's, which came out twenty seventeen. So it

553
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 4: basically kind of grew from these anti transparent websites it

554
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 4: really quickly within six months. Not only was Lisa Littman

555
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 4: doing her survey, Lisa Littman being someone who has no

556
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 4: experience in trans health ever before then just decides to

557
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,719
Speaker 4: go in and only survey parents from an ant from

558
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 4: three anti transparent websites, and it gets taken very seriously

559
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 4: just because the media fan the flames. A lot of

560
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,160
Speaker 4: these groups were very excited to have something that seemed

561
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 4: to be a case study on their side. The paper

562
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 4: was heavily critiqued when it came out. There are now

563
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 4: and I described this in an all nine SI have

564
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,320
Speaker 4: it's free if you google my name, and all the

565
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 4: evidence against social contagion it's in there. There are now

566
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 4: ten papers that have tested the idea of rap it

567
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 4: on at gender dysphoria and or social contagion and found

568
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 4: evidence that contradicts the hypothesis.

569
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: So it's still being.

570
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 4: Talked about that Pamela Paul. It was an alped that

571
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 4: looked like an article in the New York Times. It's

572
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 4: not the first time Pamela Paul and or the New

573
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 4: York Times has done this. They've seemed to have a

574
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 4: particular acts to grind against trans people and putting out

575
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:33,839
Speaker 4: specious articles suggesting that gender firming care, especially for trans youth,

576
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 4: is bad, when actually all the evidence points to the opposite.

577
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:44,280
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's a brief discussion of rapid ons at genders,

578
00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 4: for which I think is the most popular of these

579
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 4: kind of pseudoscientific ideas, But there are definitely others that

580
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 4: are like about like four or five others that I

581
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 4: could get into, and I do get into in the

582
00:34:56,719 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 4: Afterword and in some of my other writings.

583
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, and.

584
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:08,400
Speaker 4: You know, I don't use the word pseudoscientific lightly. Basically,

585
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:13,799
Speaker 4: there's like science, which is where different research groups try

586
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 4: to answer a particular question and if they all get

587
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 4: similar answers, then that becomes okay, well, that seems to

588
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:22,279
Speaker 4: be established. Now let's work from there and ask more

589
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 4: questions and do more studies. Junk science is when you

590
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 4: do kind of a crappy study that doesn't really interrogate

591
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 4: all the possibilities, that either doesn't use controls or you know,

592
00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 4: only looks at you know, a bias sampling size or

593
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 4: a bias sample or small sample sizes, and comes to

594
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 4: a conclusion that.

595
00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: It wants to come to. That's junk science.

596
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 4: And then pseudoscience is when multiple independent groups all find

597
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 4: something different to what you're saying, but you keep touting

598
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 4: the thing you're saying is science. And that's definitely where

599
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 4: our gd is right now. Same thing with one of

600
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:03,880
Speaker 4: these ideas that I talked about way back early and

601
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 4: Whipping Girl, and I've written other, you know, both academic

602
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 4: papers and online essays about this concept of autoginophilia, which

603
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,839
Speaker 4: is this really old theory that just like it's kind

604
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 4: of like this zombie. It doesn't matter how many groups

605
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 4: find evidence to the contrary. It jibes with what basically

606
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:29,600
Speaker 4: certain you know, gender disaffirming practitioners, practitioners and researchers and

607
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 4: anti transactivists. It jobs with what they want to say,

608
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 4: so it just kind of continues to be out there.

609
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, I mean something that Garrison we were

610
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 3: talking about before, this is the extent to which the

611
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 3: extent to which the rapid Onset Gender is for you

612
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 3: study is almost exactly the same study as the first

613
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,280
Speaker 3: anti vax study like it has it has almost exactly

614
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 3: the same It's the same thing where you find a

615
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 3: group of people who think their kid has autism because

616
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 3: they were got vaccinated, or you find a group of

617
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 3: people who think their kids are trans because social contagion

618
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 3: or something, and then you asked them about it, and

619
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 3: then you report the results of the study and it's like, well,

620
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 3: now and you report the results of you asking the

621
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 3: people the thing that they believe, and now it's a study,

622
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,320
Speaker 3: and it's it's I don't know, it drives me insane

623
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 3: the extent to which he is literally exactly the same thing.

624
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that was something.

625
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 4: So I didn't know this until h Bomber guy, who's

626
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 4: Auber who does really good investigations and video essays, and

627
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 4: I saw his autism and so this is something that

628
00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 4: you know. I remember, I'm old enough to remember the

629
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 4: Wakefield paper being in the news, and then you've heard

630
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: lots of people debunking it, and then it's officially retracted

631
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 4: and basically all you know, the scientific field has settled

632
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 4: that it's like vaccines do not cause autism. A lot

633
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,680
Speaker 4: of that is just like a coincidence of the time

634
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 4: that you first start noticing that children maybe autistic is

635
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 4: like right around the time after they've had vaccinations. But

636
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,440
Speaker 4: but yeah, it wasn't the h Balmber guy video that

637
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 4: he talks about that the Wakefield study is a study

638
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 4: of parents, not the children, a study of the parents,

639
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 4: and the parents already had were already suspicious of the vaccines,

640
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 4: and so they said Oh, well, it happened right after

641
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 4: they had these vaccines, just like rapido ont sat genders

642
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 4: for it happens. Oh, it happened right after. You know,

643
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 4: one of my child's peer, their cheer peers came out

644
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 4: as trans.

645
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, maybe they're connected. Maybe that's why they're

646
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 1: good friends.

647
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 4: You know, most of my friends, you know, like when

648
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 4: I go out and stuff like that, you know, a

649
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 4: huge chunk of my friends, way higher than the average person,

650
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 4: are trans people. And it's not because any of us

651
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 4: infected each other. It's just that you have that thing

652
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,800
Speaker 4: in common. You also, really importantly, when you're part of

653
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:51,879
Speaker 4: a stigmatized group, being around other people who won't stigmatize

654
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 4: you often because they're part of that same group, that

655
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 4: can be really freeing and really supportive.

656
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, Sy, we need to take another AD break,

657
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,279
Speaker 3: but when we come back there will be more. I

658
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 3: don't know. I'm really kind of blowing the AD pivots

659
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:23,879
Speaker 3: on this one. I'm very sorry, and we are back,

660
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 3: so I guess speaking of moral panics.

661
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 5: Speaking of social contagions.

662
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 4: Yes, moral panics are always very socially contagious.

663
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really truly, really truly, they have described their

664
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:43,919
Speaker 3: own ideology and they've projected it out to everyone else.

665
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 3: H So, one of the things that you talk about

666
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 3: both in the Afterword and in sext Up is about

667
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 3: the relationship between stigma and contagion and how it's this powerful,

668
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:59,360
Speaker 3: incredibly powerful force for moobilizing moral panics. Can you explain

669
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 3: sort of how that works?

670
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 5: Sure?

671
00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, so, And this was something that when I was

672
00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 4: first working on sex Up, it wasn't kind of my idea.

673
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:10,400
Speaker 4: I didn't think I was going to write about the

674
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 4: concept of stigma that much, but it really ended up

675
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 4: being very central the more kind.

676
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: Of research I did into it.

677
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,600
Speaker 4: And so I think most of us are familiar with

678
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 4: the idea of stigma in terms of like feeling embarrassment

679
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 4: or being made to feel lesser than other people because

680
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 4: of some aspect of your person, right, And there is

681
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 4: that aspect of it that's often called like felt stigma.

682
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:39,239
Speaker 4: But then there's the way that other people view stigma, right,

683
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 4: And so you know, people weren't necessarily stigmatized in that

684
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 4: way themselves, they might view people who are stigmatized in

685
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 4: particular ways. And one aspect of stigma that I learned

686
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 4: a lot of this from psychologists. I think it's Paul Rosen,

687
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 4: I know the last name is Rosin, and also Carol Nemerov,

688
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 4: and they both worked together and they had other colleagues

689
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 4: who worked on this. But a lot of this comes

690
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 4: from this really unconscious idea of contagion that seems to

691
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,440
Speaker 4: be it's like pan cultural. It's just kind of a

692
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 4: way that people tend to view the world kind of

693
00:41:19,040 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 4: like a lot of people and a lot of cultures

694
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 4: have essentialist views. Contagion is sort of along those lines.

695
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 4: It's often described as a type of magical thinking. And

696
00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 4: the idea is if something in your mind has this contagion,

697
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:35,880
Speaker 4: if you get too close to it or you interact

698
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 4: with it, it can like permanently corrupt or taint you.

699
00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 4: And so it has this kind of contagious like property

700
00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 4: in people's minds, and so people often view groups who

701
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 4: are stigmatized, especially groups that are highly stigmatized, as essentially contagious,

702
00:41:55,080 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 4: where that stigma that they have could rub off on you.

703
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: If you get to close to them.

704
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,520
Speaker 4: And so this happens like when I was really young,

705
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 4: the idea of like if you were friends with the

706
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 4: trans person. A lot of times people or even someone

707
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:12,719
Speaker 4: who is gay back then people be like, oh, so

708
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 4: what are you? You must be gay too, right, It's

709
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:18,279
Speaker 4: almost as if that stigma would then like kind of

710
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 4: migrate to you. And that's a lot of why stigmatized

711
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 4: groups face a lot of ostracization in society. And so

712
00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 4: so this idea of contagion has been around. I think

713
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 4: groups who are lesser stigmatized one of the ways that

714
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 4: that plays out is they're viewed as less contagious. So,

715
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 4: you know, when I was really young, the idea of

716
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 4: if you had a trans person in your life, people

717
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:44,640
Speaker 4: would really question you. Whereas by the time I came out,

718
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 4: you could have a trans friend and that would be fine.

719
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 4: It wouldn't necessarily be contagious, unless, of course, you were

720
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 4: interested in them, and then that stigma would If you

721
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:56,320
Speaker 4: were like attracted to them, then there's that stigma. And

722
00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 4: I think that stigma plays a lot into kind of

723
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 4: dynamics of and I write about this and sex stuff

724
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,320
Speaker 4: that the whole idea of like fetishes and chasers and

725
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 4: all that. That's basically all the stigma that contagent stuff

726
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 4: playing out in different ways anyway, So I also think

727
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 4: that and I write about and sextup I think people

728
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 4: view sex and stigma as really closely intertwined, such that

729
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 4: I think people view the average person views heterosexual sex

730
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 4: as a stigma contamination act, where the males the corrupting

731
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,920
Speaker 4: force and it's the woman who is corrupted by sex,

732
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 4: which is why you know virgins are pure. But then

733
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,399
Speaker 4: once a woman has sex, she's like, you know, she's

734
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 4: become contaminated or tainted, and she has a lot of sex,

735
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 4: then people view her as like ruined, right, So that

736
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 4: idea is bell in there, and I think this combination

737
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,720
Speaker 4: of viewing sex and stigma is kind of intertwined leads

738
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 4: to this sexual predator, the sexual predator stereotype that we're

739
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 4: seeing play out in really strong ways with trans people

740
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,560
Speaker 4: right now. But actually, if you look throughout history, like

741
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 4: a lot of marginalized groups like deal in different ways

742
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 4: with the sexual predator trope.

743
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 5: And so.

744
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 4: I think this really clearly plays out with the kind

745
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 4: of what I call the groomer explosion that started in

746
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 4: twenty twenty two, where you know, people were accusing trans

747
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:31,640
Speaker 4: people being groomors before then, but it really exploded in

748
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 4: twenty twenty two. And if you listen to what people

749
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 4: are saying that they're using the word groomer, which sounds

750
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 4: like a sexual predator thing, Like there's a real thing

751
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,839
Speaker 4: of grooming children that sexual abusers do, but they're using

752
00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 4: it against trans people in a way that has nothing

753
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 4: to do with that. But what they're talking about is corrupting,

754
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 4: you know, so their children who are presumed to be

755
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:59,120
Speaker 4: sisgender and who often I think this is why a

756
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 4: lot of these anti trans discourses continue to paint like

757
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 4: trans children as being girls, right like, because then it

758
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 4: kind of plays into these feelings of like, you know,

759
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 4: transgender people are the adult men corrupting young girls. It

760
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 4: plays into a lot of people's view like messed up,

761
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:26,320
Speaker 4: messed up heteronormative views of sex and fears of you know,

762
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 4: sexual abuse, child abuse being a very real thing that

763
00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:35,279
Speaker 4: people greatly misinterpret it so that the people who are

764
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 4: the usual perpetrators, which are usually you know, by and large,

765
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 4: straight men who are like adults who are close or

766
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,800
Speaker 4: sometimes even family members of the child in question. But

767
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 4: like when they say grooming, they just mean corrupting or contaminating.

768
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 4: And I think that both grooming and social contagion, I

769
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 4: think both of these basically play off of this stigma

770
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,760
Speaker 4: contamination idea. Right, the kids are pure, but then transgenders

771
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 4: like a type of coudies that if one kid becomes trans,

772
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:10,799
Speaker 4: then they spread it to the other kids. And so yeah,

773
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:14,759
Speaker 4: so I feel like it plays a really big role

774
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 4: not only moral panics, which amosol. Moral panics are there's

775
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 4: some kind of corrupting force that is often attacking otherwise

776
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 4: pure and innocent children. Sometimes it's technology, right, and so

777
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 4: people will be like, oh, we have to ban you know,

778
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:34,280
Speaker 4: social media apps, you know, because it's hurting the children.

779
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 4: Or it could be transgender people who are the things

780
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,800
Speaker 4: we need to ban because they're corrupting the children. But

781
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:43,360
Speaker 4: I definitely think that both these ideas of stigma and

782
00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:47,479
Speaker 4: contagion play a big role in the way in which

783
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 4: moral panics, why they resonate with a lot of people,

784
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 4: even though they don't make any rational sense if you

785
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 4: just think about them kind of.

786
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: From a very realistic, yeah, practical point of view.

787
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:04,320
Speaker 3: And we have to go to ads, but we'll be

788
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 3: back in a second, and we're back.

789
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 5: This is something that you mentioned briefly in the afterward,

790
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 5: and that's something that we've reported on, is how a

791
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 5: lot of this groomer thing that started in twenty twenty two,

792
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 5: and a whole bunch of this kind of modern wave

793
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 5: of transphobia is mirroring a lot of the anti gay

794
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 5: stuff from like the eighties that was pushed forward by

795
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 5: a lot of like evangelicals meant into just like mainstream

796
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 5: conservatism and specifically how it functions as this. Yeah, this

797
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:44,760
Speaker 5: is sort of like moral panic and even social contagion.

798
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 5: The way homosexuality was treated as this thing and this

799
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:53,600
Speaker 5: sort of social contingent aspect is so common now. I mean,

800
00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 5: even the way we've already alluded to Musk, even the

801
00:47:57,760 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 5: way he mentions like the woke mind virus is exactly

802
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:03,880
Speaker 5: this thing and as it really is like moral panics

803
00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 5: and stuff. Right, this was kind of predated by the

804
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 5: critical race theory debacle, which then got you know, turned

805
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 5: into the groomer thing, and now exactly and now it's

806
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 5: even changed again. And these moral panics can have like

807
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 5: devastating results in terms of pushing forward legislation that outlasts

808
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:26,759
Speaker 5: the actual moral panic. But the actual things themselves are

809
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 5: very short lived. They don't seem to have very much

810
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,800
Speaker 5: like staying power as as as like cultural moments, they

811
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 5: move on so quickly, Like no one talks about critical

812
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 5: race theory anymore. You don't even hear this sort of

813
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,960
Speaker 5: groomer rhetoric as often as you did two years ago,

814
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,800
Speaker 5: and it's being replaced by new versions. And yeah, like

815
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:49,400
Speaker 5: Mia said, the DEEI thing is the current current thing

816
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 5: that is wrecking American society if you ask about maybe

817
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:57,080
Speaker 5: one third of population. But yeah, how do you feel

818
00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 5: about like the life cycle of these morals and how

819
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 5: they relate to like the social contagion aspect.

820
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, And I agree with what you're also

821
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,920
Speaker 4: all the things you're citing that, Like, I think these

822
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,960
Speaker 4: are all different variations of kind of the same idea.

823
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 4: And I do really appreciate the idea of the woke

824
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 4: mind virus as being kind of like the perfect like

825
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 4: the exemplar of this and that you know, people were,

826
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 4: you know, people were complaining about, you know, stuff being

827
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,440
Speaker 4: woke for a while, and you know it is usually

828
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,760
Speaker 4: it's often coded as something that's woke is like anti racist,

829
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 4: or you know, is something like it's very much associated,

830
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,000
Speaker 4: you know, infused with like when people complain about wocism,

831
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,799
Speaker 4: a lot of times they're like they're racist or there

832
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,040
Speaker 4: or at the very least. They have fears about kind

833
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 4: of the corruption of pure whiteness being corrupted by increasing

834
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 4: you know, people of color and and you know, like

835
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 4: making game in society. Right, But the woke mind virus,

836
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 4: because no one could really explain what woke is because

837
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 4: then it keeps shifting and it refers to trans people

838
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,319
Speaker 4: or critical race theory, et cetera. Yeah, and the woke

839
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 4: mind virus is like perfect because that's how they think.

840
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 1: It all works, Like it's just this thing that infects people,

841
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 1: specially children.

842
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 4: And the way in which there is a recent thing

843
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 4: just today, I think it was Ackerman, the billionaire has

844
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:32,800
Speaker 4: been involved in a lot of this DII stuff, complaining

845
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 4: about his child being infected in college with Marxism, and

846
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 4: Elon Musk had similar issues with his trans daughter like

847
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,320
Speaker 4: becoming pro marx or anti capitalists, and so they just

848
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,680
Speaker 4: assume that, like, no, my child was pure, but now

849
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 4: they're infected. It's like, well, maybe there are other ideas

850
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 4: out there that are better than your idea. Yeah, and

851
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 4: maybe that's.

852
00:50:57,280 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 3: All it is.

853
00:50:58,520 --> 00:51:03,399
Speaker 4: But yeah, so I think in all of these cases, yes,

854
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 4: I think that there's this idea of a contagion or corruption.

855
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 4: Often involving children, and it is. Yeah, a lot of

856
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 4: the moral panic, a lot of the literature, like the

857
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 4: social sciences literature, all moral panics. They often describe them

858
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 4: as fleeting. You know, this one, the anti trans one,

859
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 4: isn't fleeting enough right now from my perspective. But people

860
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:30,800
Speaker 4: will tend to kind of move on, like the Satanic

861
00:51:30,880 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 4: panic of the eighties, you know, like that was a

862
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 4: really big deal and then all of a sudden it

863
00:51:35,360 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 4: was just gone and no one ever talked about it again.

864
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 4: I think the difference here is that a lot of

865
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 4: these moral panics are really tied together with what's happening

866
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:52,000
Speaker 4: in the country more generally, with anti democratic and authoritative,

867
00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 4: you know, views coming from you know, particularly the right

868
00:51:57,080 --> 00:51:59,880
Speaker 4: wing of the country. You know, like one of the

869
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 4: to major political parties is really pushing a lot of

870
00:52:05,840 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 4: just generally across the board. You know, they're against feminism,

871
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 4: they're you know, against people of color, against LGBTQ plus people,

872
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:18,640
Speaker 4: and I think it's all wrapped up into the same thing.

873
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 4: I think that while individual parts of the moral panic

874
00:52:23,080 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 4: may go away, they may talk about critical race theory

875
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:28,279
Speaker 4: for a bit and then shift to trans people being

876
00:52:28,320 --> 00:52:31,560
Speaker 4: groomers then shift to DEI but I think a lot

877
00:52:31,640 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 4: of this is they're all intertwined. And actually, I think

878
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 4: that's like the last couple of paragraphs of the afterward,

879
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 4: I talk about that as a potentially good thing, because

880
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,520
Speaker 4: even though it's been a horring time to be a

881
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,879
Speaker 4: trans person, with all the anti trans legislation and all

882
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 4: the anti trans news stories, all the pushes back on

883
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,840
Speaker 4: gender firm and care, despite all that, I think the

884
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,640
Speaker 4: good thing is that I think there are clear sides here,

885
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,440
Speaker 4: and I think, well, this wasn't true early on in

886
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 4: the anti trans backlash in the like late twenty tens.

887
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 4: I think most people realize now that all these things

888
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 4: are tied together from like kind of you know, the

889
00:53:16,719 --> 00:53:19,920
Speaker 4: right wing perspective in this country is just against all

890
00:53:20,040 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 4: these things. You know, they want a white, Christian, straight

891
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 4: minority of people running everything about this country, and so

892
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 4: I think the rest of us really need to recognize

893
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 4: that and work together to defeat that.

894
00:53:36,680 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think I think that's a pretty

895
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 3: good place to end on. Do Let's you have anything

896
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 3: else that you wanted to make sure you get in.

897
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 4: No, I mean I feel like we touched we covered

898
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 4: a bunch of the book past, present, and hopefully future

899
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 4: being better than the present right now.

900
00:53:54,040 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 5: Hopefully hopefully hopefully.

901
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:56,719
Speaker 6: Yes.

902
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:03,680
Speaker 3: So okay, where can people find a the new additional

903
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 3: Whipping Girl and be you and your work on the

904
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:07,880
Speaker 3: internet and or other places?

905
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah, so the book should be available.

906
00:54:12,320 --> 00:54:14,920
Speaker 4: So it's available for pre order right now, so you

907
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:18,480
Speaker 4: can do that through like, you know, online places. I

908
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 4: often suggest people go to the Seal Press, my publisher,

909
00:54:22,360 --> 00:54:23,480
Speaker 4: because they give lots.

910
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:23,960
Speaker 1: Of options there.

911
00:54:24,160 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 4: But you can also go to your local independent bookstore

912
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 4: and say, hey, I'd like the pre order this book

913
00:54:29,239 --> 00:54:31,239
Speaker 4: and they will do that for you. So the book

914
00:54:31,280 --> 00:54:34,720
Speaker 4: will be available everywhere and should be in stores starting

915
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 4: in March. As for me, my website Juliuserando dot com,

916
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 4: particularly if you go to the writings page there, I

917
00:54:42,320 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 4: have like literally links to everything I've written online over

918
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 4: the years, so it's kind of a clearinghouse of free

919
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 4: writings of mine. There are also links to my books there,

920
00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 4: and then if you're looking for me on social media,

921
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 4: I'm at Julius Serrano on most platforms that I'm at.

922
00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:03,280
Speaker 3: I don't know how much stronger I can possibly recommend

923
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:07,279
Speaker 3: reading Whipping Girl. It had I don't know it had

924
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 3: an enormous impact on me when I first read it,

925
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:13,560
Speaker 3: and yeah, it will it will. It will do good

926
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 3: things for you if you read it too.

927
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,279
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's all still incredibly relevant. Like I was

928
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 5: breezing through like fifty pages just to refresh my memory

929
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 5: this morning, and I'm like, oh wow, so many of

930
00:55:26,120 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 5: the like intercommunity trans discourses that are constantly happening have

931
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,279
Speaker 5: already been addressed, like twenty years ago, so many of

932
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,520
Speaker 5: like I all the time I spend trying to write

933
00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 5: about like trans misogyny of like, oh I I forgot,

934
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 5: this is already like all like written down, Like I

935
00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:46,880
Speaker 5: spent so long writing about the Daily Wire movie and like,

936
00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 5: oh this is hardly all this work has already been done.

937
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 3: I can just like stop.

938
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:55,879
Speaker 5: Oh man, Yeah, cannot cannot recommend enough.

939
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you, thank you so much for coming on.

940
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you all for the kind words. Yeah, thank

941
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 4: you for having me, and uh it was great and

942
00:56:06,160 --> 00:56:07,279
Speaker 4: thanks for all you do too.

943
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:09,320
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.

944
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 7: Welcome back to it could happen here, your favorite podcast

945
00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 7: for a daily dose of dystopia. I am once again

946
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 7: you're a guest host, Molly Conger. Today I'm talking to

947
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:33,880
Speaker 7: a good friend of mine in one of the brilliant

948
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 7: minds behind the melting of Charlottesville's Robert E. Lee statue,

949
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 7: Doctor Julane Schmidt, is going to tell us a little

950
00:56:39,640 --> 00:56:41,760
Speaker 7: bit about the history of the statue, from its planning

951
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 7: and placement to its current state, melted into ingots in

952
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 7: an undisclosed location. I'm joined today by doctor Julane Schmidt,

953
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 7: a professor of Religious Studies at the University of Virginia,

954
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 7: the director of the Memory Project at the University of

955
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,319
Speaker 7: Virginia's Karsh Institute of Democracy, and a steering committee member

956
00:56:58,320 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 7: at the Swords in da Plowshare's project. As both a

957
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,359
Speaker 7: scholar and an activist, doctor Schmidt has been a leading

958
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 7: voice in the Charlottesville community for racial justice and against

959
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 7: the Confederate monuments that once stood here. The Swords into

960
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,200
Speaker 7: Plasher's project announced back in October that they had successfully

961
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 7: dismantled and melted down the bronze statue of Robert E.

962
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 7: Lee that once loomed over the Market Street Park and

963
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 7: downtown Charlottesville. Thank you so much for joining me today

964
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 7: to talk about the past, present, and future of that

965
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:23,720
Speaker 7: hunk of bronze.

966
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:27,760
Speaker 6: Thanks for having me Mollie, it's great to great to

967
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 6: talk with you about this.

968
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 7: I don't think i've called you Professor Schmidt since two

969
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:33,400
Speaker 7: thousand and eight, when I took one of your classes.

970
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 6: It's been a while. It's been a while. Yeah, yeah.

971
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 6: Now we just call each other comrades, you know, because

972
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 6: we're out there on the streets and in city council

973
00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:44,040
Speaker 6: and you know, doing the things.

974
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 7: So before we get to the final fate of that

975
00:57:46,960 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 7: melted bronze, I want to ground this in the history

976
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 7: of that particular object. Right, This isn't just any Confederate monument.

977
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 7: This is the statue that made Charlottesville household name, the

978
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,400
Speaker 7: statue that brought unite the right here, the statue that

979
00:57:58,760 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 7: killed someone. It's a statue that had history in that

980
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 7: park for a century before it came down, and before

981
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 7: it was removed. You led some really incredible walking tours

982
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:08,920
Speaker 7: of the downtown parks to try to tell the story

983
00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 7: of the way those statues existed in those spaces for generations,

984
00:58:12,480 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 7: why they were there, what they meant, what impact they

985
00:58:14,480 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 7: had on the landscape and the people in the community.

986
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 7: I think I went on about a dozen of those

987
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 7: walking tours, and I learned something new every single time.

988
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 7: So can you talk a little bit about the political

989
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 7: atmosphere in nineteen twenty four when that statue first went up.

990
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:30,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, well it should, you know, just kind of to

991
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 6: back up a little bit, like the history of Charlottesville, Virginia.

992
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:37,840
Speaker 6: At around the time of the Civil War, over half

993
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:40,880
Speaker 6: of the population of the local population was enslaved in

994
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 6: Charlottesville and surrounding Albmarle County, and black people were actually

995
00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:49,160
Speaker 6: the majority of the population of Charlottesville until about eighteen

996
00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 6: ninety and then it has been on this steady decline

997
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 6: you know, since then. So to think about it, if

998
00:58:57,480 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 6: you look at the history of reconstruction in charlott Pottsville,

999
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 6: black people came out and registered to vote and got

1000
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:09,400
Speaker 6: politically organized very quickly in the eighteen sixties already and

1001
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 6: were very influential in electing a black delegate from Charlottesville

1002
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,680
Speaker 6: to go to the Constitutional Convention. This is when in

1003
00:59:18,840 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 6: order to rejoin the Union, all of the former Confederate

1004
00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:25,160
Speaker 6: states had to get their state constitutions up to snuff,

1005
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 6: and so Virginia, as did the other former Confederate states,

1006
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:35,880
Speaker 6: you know, had a constitutional convention. In our delegate from

1007
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 6: Charlottesville was James T. S.

1008
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 1: Taylor.

1009
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 6: He was a black man from Charlottesville. He'd been in

1010
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,680
Speaker 6: the United States Colored Troops, and he had a coalition

1011
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 6: had coalesced around him of some progressive whites or savvy whites,

1012
00:59:49,720 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 6: you know that through their lot with him and former

1013
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 6: enslaved people and went and you know, and represented us

1014
00:59:57,040 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 6: and put you know, Charlottesville in the mix for starting

1015
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 6: a new state constitution in Virginia, for finally getting public schools.

1016
01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 6: You know, that's one thing that we can think, you know,

1017
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 6: all those reconstruction governments around the South, you know, forgetting

1018
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,680
Speaker 6: us those public schools that we wouldn't have otherwise had

1019
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:15,000
Speaker 6: that we didn't have before.

1020
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 1: You know.

1021
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 6: So I say all that backdrop that if you read

1022
01:00:19,040 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 6: the historical sources of the time during reconstruction and post

1023
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:28,800
Speaker 6: reconstruction in Charlottesville, the white elites were quite upset with

1024
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,000
Speaker 6: the state of affairs that had emerged after the Civil

1025
01:00:32,040 --> 01:00:37,840
Speaker 6: War in which formerly enslaved people were in leadership competitian

1026
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:42,320
Speaker 6: political leadership, you know. And so when you look at

1027
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:47,240
Speaker 6: the history of you know, then finally as as the

1028
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:51,600
Speaker 6: new you know, there was a reconstruction era constitution that

1029
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 6: started all those wonderful things such as you know, public schools,

1030
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 6: you know, and voting rights for black men, you know.

1031
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 6: But then as the Neil Confederates or their Confederate sympathizers

1032
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:05,520
Speaker 6: start to get the upper hand again at the end

1033
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 6: of reconstruction, and in Virginia that's you know, more or

1034
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:10,920
Speaker 6: less in the in the eighteen eighties, you know, and

1035
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:14,360
Speaker 6: then there's this steady imposition of Jim Crow, you know,

1036
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 6: that's going into you know, in Richmond they put in

1037
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:21,240
Speaker 6: their giant General Lee statue in eighteen ninety, you know there,

1038
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 6: and then in nineteen oh two there's finally there was

1039
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 6: this final push that pushed black people out of political

1040
01:01:27,960 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 6: office in Virginia, and in nineteen oh two, a new

1041
01:01:31,320 --> 01:01:35,040
Speaker 6: Jim Crow state Constitution was put into effect in nineteen

1042
01:01:35,080 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 6: oh two. And so you have to when you think

1043
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 6: about all of these statues being installed, we have to

1044
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 6: see it as this it's really resentment politics, you know,

1045
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 6: that's come about. That is if you look at these

1046
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:54,320
Speaker 6: speeches that are delivered at the installation ceremonies of these statues.

1047
01:01:54,680 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 6: And this is where I'm getting to our General Lee

1048
01:01:57,240 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 6: statue in Charlottesville specifically with this, you go back and

1049
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 6: look at those at the occasion for the day and

1050
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 6: these these installation ceremonies, they were a time for the

1051
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 6: neo Confederate organizations, the hosting organizations in our case, the

1052
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,600
Speaker 6: United Daughters of the Confederacy, the United Confederate Veterans, and

1053
01:02:18,600 --> 01:02:22,000
Speaker 6: the Sons of Confederate Veterans. Okay, we're the hosts you

1054
01:02:22,080 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 6: know for this event. And this is a two or

1055
01:02:23,920 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 6: three day occasion. So there's like delegations coming in from

1056
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 6: all over the state, you know, and you know there's

1057
01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 6: this build up you know, in the days ahead, you know,

1058
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 6: leading up to the installation. This was in May of

1059
01:02:37,120 --> 01:02:39,400
Speaker 6: nineteen twenty four, you know, so you see, oh, this

1060
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,480
Speaker 6: delegation has arrived from Roanoak and now the governor is

1061
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 6: coming in and now this and now you know, and

1062
01:02:44,480 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 6: so you know, the town is just a twitter. You

1063
01:02:46,880 --> 01:02:51,320
Speaker 6: know that this that they are hosting the statewide reunion

1064
01:02:52,160 --> 01:02:56,680
Speaker 6: of the United Confederate Veterans. And there hardly are anymore

1065
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 6: at this time. They're you know, quite elderly at this point.

1066
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:02,200
Speaker 6: So there, you know, there's why this you know, uh celebration,

1067
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,240
Speaker 6: and this is also an annual meeting of the Sons

1068
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 6: of Confederate Veterans. And so the fact that little Charlottesville

1069
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:12,479
Speaker 6: is hosting a statewide reunion, you know, of the state

1070
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 6: wide of all the chapters you know, of these neo

1071
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 6: Confederate veterans is a big deal. And then and then

1072
01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:21,520
Speaker 6: you know they're doing this, you know, and within this

1073
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 6: context is when the unveiling of this statue is occurring,

1074
01:03:25,960 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 6: you see. And so it's this, it's this whole build

1075
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 6: up of kind of lost cause nostalgia, which which is occurring.

1076
01:03:34,280 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 6: And in the speeches at the Lee statue unveiling ceremony,

1077
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 6: it's very instructive to listen to what is being said.

1078
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:45,360
Speaker 5: You know.

1079
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,320
Speaker 6: You have, of course, you know, kind of local dignitaries

1080
01:03:49,360 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 6: and statewide you know dignitaries are there. The the national

1081
01:03:54,240 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 6: Commander of the Sons of Confederate Veterans is there. He

1082
01:03:57,840 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 6: gives a speech. He was also a clansman, you know.

1083
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:03,360
Speaker 6: You know, so this says something there that you know,

1084
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 6: nineteen twenties Charlottesville, you know, elites were not averse to

1085
01:04:07,160 --> 01:04:10,440
Speaker 6: rubbing shoulders with a known klansman, you know, who had

1086
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 6: been invited to give a speech. You know, other invited

1087
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:18,000
Speaker 6: guests one was a minister who was a graduate of

1088
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 6: the University of Virginia, and it was you know, just

1089
01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:24,000
Speaker 6: kind of revealing, you know what he said in his

1090
01:04:24,840 --> 01:04:28,200
Speaker 6: in his speech, you know, when he was talking about

1091
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 6: he said that that the days of reconstruction were worse

1092
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:32,840
Speaker 6: than war.

1093
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:34,000
Speaker 5: You know.

1094
01:04:35,320 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 6: You know, so this right exactly, Yeah, does beg the question,

1095
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 6: and that yeah, goes without saying, of course, that this

1096
01:04:42,920 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 6: is you know, almost exclusively a white audience and you know,

1097
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 6: the white school kids. School has been canceled for the day,

1098
01:04:48,240 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 6: the university as classes you know, canceled for the day,

1099
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 6: and you know, the businesses are closed. I mean, this

1100
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 6: is just you know, quite the community event that's going on.

1101
01:04:57,800 --> 01:05:01,280
Speaker 6: So yeah, so reconstruction was worse than or you know,

1102
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 6: we're celebrating today, you know, the you know, the spirit

1103
01:05:04,720 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 6: of lead, the regeneration, you know, of our values, and

1104
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:12,160
Speaker 6: you know, there's just a lot of of conversation in

1105
01:05:12,320 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 6: these in these inaugurations, ceremonies, you know, for the unveiling

1106
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 6: of these statues that harken to rebirth and regeneration and

1107
01:05:21,200 --> 01:05:24,280
Speaker 6: and you know, and also you know kind of recalling

1108
01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 6: you know, the days of old, you know, and the

1109
01:05:26,640 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 6: and the values. You know of our veterans, you know

1110
01:05:29,480 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 6: who are now you know of course in dwindling number,

1111
01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 6: you know, these Confederate veterans who are there. And so

1112
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:38,000
Speaker 6: this and as I said, there's been this whole build

1113
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,280
Speaker 6: up you know, for days and days, you know, I mean,

1114
01:05:41,320 --> 01:05:43,400
Speaker 6: of course for the planning committee, this has been going

1115
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:45,880
Speaker 6: on for weeks and months, you know, the fundraising and

1116
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 6: you know, reserving you know blocks you know at the

1117
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:51,000
Speaker 6: hotels and you know, and all guest houses and all

1118
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 6: this kind of thing, you know, banquet halls, et cetera.

1119
01:05:53,640 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 6: You know. But it's it's also revealing that this installation

1120
01:05:59,240 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 6: ceremony for the statue, it is book ended with clan

1121
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 6: activity and uptick in clan activity before and after the

1122
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:15,520
Speaker 6: installation ceremony. And why while we don't have well we

1123
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,040
Speaker 6: do know, but you know one one clansman who you know,

1124
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 6: the the Commander Lee, no relation to the General Lee.

1125
01:06:22,160 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 6: But uh but the president and sons sons of the

1126
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 6: Confederate Veterans, you know. But but to just see all

1127
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:34,560
Speaker 6: of this uptick in lost cause nostalgia and then these

1128
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:38,919
Speaker 6: these acts of intimidation of you know, clan rallies, clan

1129
01:06:39,080 --> 01:06:43,320
Speaker 6: posters that were you know, put flyers around town, you know, uh,

1130
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:47,200
Speaker 6: and this sort of thing. It just it they're the

1131
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 6: atmosphere of intimidation. You know that this must have been

1132
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 6: for black residents you know of the time. Uh, you know,

1133
01:06:55,920 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 6: it just it really gives you pause, you know, just

1134
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 6: just seeing how public space was commandeered, you know by

1135
01:07:03,480 --> 01:07:06,880
Speaker 6: these people, these Neil Confederates, you know, to kind of

1136
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,560
Speaker 6: relive what they considered, you know, kind of the glory

1137
01:07:10,680 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 6: days you know, of the nation, you know, and the

1138
01:07:14,120 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 6: kind of values to which they want to return, you know,

1139
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 6: and this sort of thing. So yeah, so this is

1140
01:07:21,000 --> 01:07:24,640
Speaker 6: going on, you know in the nineteen twenties, as you know,

1141
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:28,000
Speaker 6: Charlottesville is you know, locked into Jim Crow by then,

1142
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:31,880
Speaker 6: you know, and we're twenty two years into that Jim

1143
01:07:31,960 --> 01:07:35,520
Speaker 6: Crow State Constitution. You know, this is the mail u

1144
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:38,120
Speaker 6: you know, in which in which this is taking place.

1145
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:38,280
Speaker 5: Now.

1146
01:07:38,320 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 6: Of course, Black people have their own institutions, you know

1147
01:07:42,320 --> 01:07:46,760
Speaker 6: that they've founded, namely churches, the Jefferson School, African American

1148
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:50,160
Speaker 6: what's now the African American Heritage Center, but the Jefferson School,

1149
01:07:50,240 --> 01:07:55,720
Speaker 6: which was a school for black children, and the founding

1150
01:07:55,760 --> 01:07:58,960
Speaker 6: of the High School of a Black High School. So

1151
01:07:59,120 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 6: this was you know, the the black community had its

1152
01:08:01,560 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 6: own nodes of organizational strength, you know, and goings on

1153
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:10,760
Speaker 6: that were happening even as you know, there were these

1154
01:08:10,880 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 6: pressures going on with the consolidation of Jim Crow. Should

1155
01:08:15,120 --> 01:08:17,760
Speaker 6: also mention that, you know, at this at around the

1156
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:22,560
Speaker 6: same time in the spring of nineteen twenty four was

1157
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:27,760
Speaker 6: the passage of the Virginia Racial Integrity Act. And this

1158
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:32,000
Speaker 6: was the kind of the codification of the so called

1159
01:08:32,080 --> 01:08:38,439
Speaker 6: one Drop Rule, which designated anyone with a perceived ad

1160
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 6: mixture of African American or Native American ancestry to be

1161
01:08:45,280 --> 01:08:48,560
Speaker 6: designated as colored, you know, and kind of bifurcating the

1162
01:08:48,640 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 6: population of Virginia into two categories, white or colored. And

1163
01:08:53,160 --> 01:08:55,960
Speaker 6: so this is also occurring, you know, in nineteen twenty four.

1164
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:57,640
Speaker 6: There's a very you know, there's very much of a

1165
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 6: legal you know, kind of strengthening, you know of in

1166
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:06,679
Speaker 6: terms of the tools that are being used to separate

1167
01:09:07,840 --> 01:09:11,439
Speaker 6: the races quote unquote you know, and what we're seeing

1168
01:09:11,520 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 6: then in the parks, you know, in our public spaces

1169
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:19,800
Speaker 6: were you know, kind of designating what we're well not

1170
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 6: public spaces, I mean, they were you know, kind of

1171
01:09:21,880 --> 01:09:26,560
Speaker 6: designated you know, almost shrine like you know as white spaces,

1172
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 6: you know, and that this is it's a kind of

1173
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:34,439
Speaker 6: broadcasting of who's in charge, is what's going on?

1174
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:35,640
Speaker 5: Right?

1175
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:37,960
Speaker 7: I think you know today the sons of Confederate Veterans

1176
01:09:38,720 --> 01:09:41,599
Speaker 7: very much separate themselves from the clan, right, there were

1177
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,680
Speaker 7: a heritage organization. We're not the clan, but you were

1178
01:09:44,680 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 7: talking about this sort of clan activity leading up to

1179
01:09:47,000 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 7: the unveiling of the statue, and its actually just looking

1180
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:52,599
Speaker 7: back this morning at some of the archival newspapers from

1181
01:09:52,680 --> 01:09:55,719
Speaker 7: that week. And so when the day the statue was placed,

1182
01:09:55,840 --> 01:09:57,560
Speaker 7: you know, a few weeks before the unveiling, it was

1183
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,479
Speaker 7: still covered, it was shrouded, you know, it's leading up

1184
01:09:59,479 --> 01:10:01,599
Speaker 7: to the big day. So that in the front page

1185
01:10:01,600 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 7: of the Daily Progress the day that the statue was

1186
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:06,960
Speaker 7: put in the park, that little snippet appears in the

1187
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 7: newspaper right next to a headline about cross burning. These

1188
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:13,360
Speaker 7: things are happening on at the same time, right, And

1189
01:10:13,439 --> 01:10:16,280
Speaker 7: there was a big clan march through town that week,

1190
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:18,719
Speaker 7: and I think one of the it's easy to forget

1191
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:23,080
Speaker 7: that these historical moments were experienced by people whose words

1192
01:10:23,120 --> 01:10:25,360
Speaker 7: that we still have, like people who were living in

1193
01:10:25,439 --> 01:10:27,960
Speaker 7: this moment. I think one of one moment in your

1194
01:10:28,040 --> 01:10:29,840
Speaker 7: historical tour that really has stuck with me all these

1195
01:10:29,920 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 7: years is an anecdote about John West, who is for

1196
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,000
Speaker 7: the listener as a man who was born into slavery

1197
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 7: and this era was one of the largest black landowners

1198
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:41,960
Speaker 7: in the area, was a successful businessman. And when the

1199
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 7: clan marched by that week, you know, they're wearing their hoods,

1200
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:46,759
Speaker 7: you don't know who they are. It's you know, it's mysterious,

1201
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:49,960
Speaker 7: it's intimidating. But he knew who every single clansman was

1202
01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:53,320
Speaker 7: because he was their barber, and he recognized their shoes.

1203
01:10:53,400 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 7: And that just feels so intimate to me, right that

1204
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:58,360
Speaker 7: he's he's looking at the shoes of these men that

1205
01:10:58,439 --> 01:10:59,920
Speaker 7: he knows, and then tomorrow they're going to come in

1206
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:01,680
Speaker 7: for a shaven a haircut and he has to say,

1207
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:02,960
Speaker 7: you know, yes, sir, thank you, sir.

1208
01:11:03,479 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 6: That's right, that's right. And so if you can just imagine, like,

1209
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,560
Speaker 6: you know, and here you know John West. You know,

1210
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:12,920
Speaker 6: so here's one of the most you know, influential Black

1211
01:11:13,040 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 6: residents of Charlottesville at that time, and he has to

1212
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:19,000
Speaker 6: live Yeah, in this you know that there's this this

1213
01:11:19,200 --> 01:11:22,479
Speaker 6: atmosphere of intimidation that you that, yeah, his clients are

1214
01:11:22,520 --> 01:11:24,519
Speaker 6: coming in, you know, they're coming in every ten days

1215
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,080
Speaker 6: or fourteen days to get a get a trim, get

1216
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:29,120
Speaker 6: a you know, touch up, you know here and there,

1217
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:34,280
Speaker 6: and yeah, and and he knows that these you know

1218
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:37,800
Speaker 6: that that these are you know, the folks who are

1219
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:42,760
Speaker 6: kind of maintaining you know that this this public order,

1220
01:11:43,160 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 6: you know that is so uh you know that you know,

1221
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:49,080
Speaker 6: you better not step out of line. And so just

1222
01:11:49,600 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 6: to have one's public space, you know, be demarcated, you know,

1223
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:59,680
Speaker 6: in such a demonstrative way, you know, in a monumental

1224
01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 6: you know literally yeah exactly is it really illustrates what's

1225
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,600
Speaker 6: going on, you know, and even in you know, relationships

1226
01:12:09,720 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 6: like that, you know that are so like you know,

1227
01:12:12,280 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 6: intimate a barber and a client, you know, and knowing

1228
01:12:16,520 --> 01:12:19,080
Speaker 6: you know, what your clients are up to, you know,

1229
01:12:19,400 --> 01:12:21,439
Speaker 6: and how you better stay in line.

1230
01:12:21,760 --> 01:12:21,920
Speaker 3: You know.

1231
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:22,839
Speaker 6: It's scary.

1232
01:12:33,960 --> 01:12:36,879
Speaker 7: That's what that statue was here right for almost a century,

1233
01:12:37,000 --> 01:12:39,559
Speaker 7: So skipping ahead that century right when the statue finally

1234
01:12:39,640 --> 01:12:43,559
Speaker 7: came down in twenty twenty one, so not too long ago, right,

1235
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:46,560
Speaker 7: So the city solicited proposals for what was to be

1236
01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 7: done with it. Right, A lot of cities put them

1237
01:12:48,360 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 7: into storage or moved them to battlefields or museums didn't

1238
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:53,720
Speaker 7: want them. People say, well, why can't it go to

1239
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:55,599
Speaker 7: a music museums didn't want it, right.

1240
01:12:56,760 --> 01:13:01,240
Speaker 6: Yeah, So because of my I get pulled in on

1241
01:13:01,320 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 6: a lot of different statue statue related consultations, let's put

1242
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 6: it that way. And I was on the George Rogers

1243
01:13:10,040 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 6: Clark Committee at the University of Virginia when the university

1244
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:16,240
Speaker 6: was trying to decide what to do with a very

1245
01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:19,720
Speaker 6: hideous I called it the Genocide Trophy. It was a

1246
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:23,839
Speaker 6: statue of the George Rogers Clark, the conqueror of the Northwest.

1247
01:13:23,880 --> 01:13:27,000
Speaker 6: It literally said that on the facade, you know. And

1248
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:30,920
Speaker 6: so we were in consultation with native tribes. We were

1249
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:36,960
Speaker 6: contacting the various tribal nations who suffered the onslaught of

1250
01:13:37,080 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 6: the so called Northwest Campaign. So these tribes that are

1251
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 6: in what is now Illinois and Ohio, et cetera, you know,

1252
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:46,600
Speaker 6: and just asking them, you know, would you like to

1253
01:13:46,840 --> 01:13:49,240
Speaker 6: kind of weigh in, you know, on this, and you know,

1254
01:13:49,439 --> 01:13:52,000
Speaker 6: really sad, genocide is a real thing some folks who

1255
01:13:52,000 --> 01:13:55,600
Speaker 6: are just no longer there, you know, or you know

1256
01:13:55,720 --> 01:13:58,720
Speaker 6: were you know, became such a remnant, you know, as

1257
01:13:58,760 --> 01:14:00,519
Speaker 6: they were so decimated that you know, they kind of

1258
01:14:00,560 --> 01:14:03,080
Speaker 6: you know morphed into you know, other tribes others were

1259
01:14:03,439 --> 01:14:06,680
Speaker 6: you know, went on you know, later on to you know,

1260
01:14:06,840 --> 01:14:10,360
Speaker 6: to uh, Oklahoma or other places. You know, just dispersal,

1261
01:14:10,720 --> 01:14:13,240
Speaker 6: you know, really was you know. You know, so we're

1262
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:15,400
Speaker 6: in this you know, kind of year long process trying

1263
01:14:15,400 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 6: to figure out what to do with UVa's own statue there,

1264
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 6: you know, also a gift of Paul Goodlow McIntyre, you know,

1265
01:14:21,400 --> 01:14:23,800
Speaker 6: the same donor who gave the least statue to the city,

1266
01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,679
Speaker 6: gave this s. George Rogers Clark statue to the university.

1267
01:14:28,200 --> 01:14:33,240
Speaker 6: And so in doing that committee work, we made appointments

1268
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:36,080
Speaker 6: with all the big players, all the you know, and

1269
01:14:36,120 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 6: here we are, We're from the University of Virginia, you know,

1270
01:14:39,160 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 6: and we've got this you know, big big monument here,

1271
01:14:44,120 --> 01:14:46,519
Speaker 6: you know, the Smithsonian, the you know, and you know

1272
01:14:46,600 --> 01:14:50,839
Speaker 6: we talked to not about this one, but in another instance,

1273
01:14:50,920 --> 01:14:54,760
Speaker 6: talk to you know, the Civil War Museum's battlefields, you know,

1274
01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:58,280
Speaker 6: I mean, we contacted all the responsible you know, the

1275
01:14:58,520 --> 01:15:02,439
Speaker 6: folks who are going to curate this in a responsible way,

1276
01:15:02,600 --> 01:15:05,599
Speaker 6: you know, because you know that's it is a monumental

1277
01:15:05,640 --> 01:15:08,040
Speaker 6: work of art. You know, it has stood here for

1278
01:15:08,120 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 6: a century. It does have historical value of a sort,

1279
01:15:12,479 --> 01:15:14,320
Speaker 6: you know. And I mean and you know, and as

1280
01:15:14,320 --> 01:15:17,240
Speaker 6: someone who has you know, teaches history and research's history,

1281
01:15:17,280 --> 01:15:21,639
Speaker 6: that's my that's my inclination. My initial inclination is, oh, yeah,

1282
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 6: well we should preserve I mean, that's you know, kind

1283
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:26,760
Speaker 6: of where I go to. But the problem is it's

1284
01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:30,280
Speaker 6: a very practical one. This is a material object that

1285
01:15:30,400 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 6: is taking up space, literal and figurative space in the world.

1286
01:15:34,200 --> 01:15:35,960
Speaker 7: It's six six thousand pounds.

1287
01:15:36,400 --> 01:15:39,920
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, the very materiality of it. It is taking

1288
01:15:40,000 --> 01:15:43,479
Speaker 6: up space, and you you have to figure out what

1289
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:47,559
Speaker 6: space is it going to inhabit. This is a very

1290
01:15:47,680 --> 01:15:51,559
Speaker 6: practical question. If it's not in your park anymore, where's

1291
01:15:51,600 --> 01:15:54,800
Speaker 6: it going to be. We contacted all these museums, you know,

1292
01:15:54,880 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 6: and in several you know, different consultations I've been a

1293
01:15:57,800 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 6: part of where we've been trying to get rid of statues.

1294
01:16:01,080 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 6: Nobody wants them, nobody responsible wants them. And you know,

1295
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:08,720
Speaker 6: and even if they did have an inclination to want

1296
01:16:08,720 --> 01:16:11,040
Speaker 6: to just the expense of it. You know, who wants

1297
01:16:11,120 --> 01:16:15,519
Speaker 6: to reinforce their floors to put a you know, century old,

1298
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:21,840
Speaker 6: you know, artistically not exemplary, you know, monument in it,

1299
01:16:22,040 --> 01:16:23,800
Speaker 6: you know, and then care for I mean, museums have

1300
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 6: very limited budgets. They're nonprofit organizations. Why should they be

1301
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:33,000
Speaker 6: expending all this energy? I love the My my colleague

1302
01:16:33,200 --> 01:16:37,439
Speaker 6: Aaron Thompson from John Jay College and Cuney, you know,

1303
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:40,080
Speaker 6: she's an art crime professor, and she said, you know,

1304
01:16:40,200 --> 01:16:43,599
Speaker 6: she talked with somebody at the Smithsonian who said something

1305
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:48,479
Speaker 6: to the effect that, you know, we're not America's attic

1306
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 6: for racist art. You know, that's that's not our role.

1307
01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:55,080
Speaker 6: It's like, you know, it kind of does throw back

1308
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:58,479
Speaker 6: the responsibility to individual communities too. It's like, you know,

1309
01:16:58,600 --> 01:17:00,320
Speaker 6: you have a part to play in this.

1310
01:17:00,520 --> 01:17:00,640
Speaker 3: You know.

1311
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:02,880
Speaker 6: And so anyway, yeah, so we tried to do the

1312
01:17:02,960 --> 01:17:06,240
Speaker 6: responsible thing. We contacted all the responsible actors out there.

1313
01:17:06,479 --> 01:17:10,000
Speaker 6: They don't want them, and so then the question becomes, Okay,

1314
01:17:11,160 --> 01:17:13,599
Speaker 6: the city also doesn't want it sitting on its back

1315
01:17:13,720 --> 01:17:17,760
Speaker 6: lot for forever in perpetuity. You know, they've got things going,

1316
01:17:17,800 --> 01:17:19,560
Speaker 6: you know, they've got equipment there, They've got things that

1317
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:21,080
Speaker 6: you know, this shouldn't be sitting there.

1318
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:22,760
Speaker 2: Where is it going to go?

1319
01:17:23,000 --> 01:17:25,719
Speaker 6: Again? This is the material object that exists in the world.

1320
01:17:26,000 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 6: It is a problem, you know, like what physical space

1321
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,599
Speaker 6: is it going to occupy? We're just such brute practicality here,

1322
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:34,479
Speaker 6: and I don't think people quite get what it means

1323
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:37,599
Speaker 6: to deal with this. And the only people who want

1324
01:17:37,600 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 6: it are the very people who shouldn't have it, you know,

1325
01:17:41,240 --> 01:17:44,920
Speaker 6: who want to take this object that's caused us so

1326
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:48,760
Speaker 6: much pain and to make a shrine out of it,

1327
01:17:49,400 --> 01:17:54,040
Speaker 6: you know, that would continue to attract bad actors, you know,

1328
01:17:54,840 --> 01:17:57,120
Speaker 6: and that it would you know. And I'm a religious

1329
01:17:57,120 --> 01:17:59,600
Speaker 6: studies scholar, so when I use I don't use the

1330
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 6: word ran lightly. I know what kinds of activities you know, uh,

1331
01:18:04,720 --> 01:18:07,120
Speaker 6: these engender you know, and the sorts of emotions that

1332
01:18:07,240 --> 01:18:09,960
Speaker 6: are you know evoked, you know, in the ceremonies around

1333
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:12,320
Speaker 6: you know, objects that are that are held to be sacred.

1334
01:18:12,439 --> 01:18:14,840
Speaker 6: You know that that attract you know, kind of devotees,

1335
01:18:14,960 --> 01:18:17,559
Speaker 6: you know, and so you really have to think about

1336
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:21,120
Speaker 6: what does it mean to be a responsible ethical actor?

1337
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:22,200
Speaker 3: You know.

1338
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:25,599
Speaker 6: It's like now we're we're in grown up world now,

1339
01:18:25,680 --> 01:18:28,479
Speaker 6: it's like, okay, exactly want you know, it's like there

1340
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:30,439
Speaker 6: is a material object, where are we going to put it?

1341
01:18:30,680 --> 01:18:32,360
Speaker 6: It's like have an adjunct car, what do you do

1342
01:18:32,479 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 6: with it? You just let it sit in your driveway

1343
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:35,640
Speaker 6: and make your neighbors mad at you.

1344
01:18:36,040 --> 01:18:38,080
Speaker 7: Right, And these Confederate statues are sort of the the

1345
01:18:38,600 --> 01:18:40,800
Speaker 7: the junk cars of the Lost Cause, right, because they're

1346
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:44,160
Speaker 7: not rare, right, like, you know, especially right after Unite

1347
01:18:44,160 --> 01:18:45,920
Speaker 7: the Right, a bunch of cities, all of a sudden,

1348
01:18:45,920 --> 01:18:48,160
Speaker 7: we're like, we got to get rid of these things.

1349
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:51,360
Speaker 7: And so suddenly the market is flooded with Confederate statues.

1350
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:52,639
Speaker 7: Where are you going to put them?

1351
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:56,560
Speaker 6: That's right at that and that is the question. And

1352
01:18:57,360 --> 01:18:59,840
Speaker 6: they are And I've used this this metaphor before, the

1353
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:05,520
Speaker 6: the metaphor of toxic waste. You know, it's not responsible

1354
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:07,800
Speaker 6: to say, oh, we want to get rid of our

1355
01:19:08,680 --> 01:19:12,040
Speaker 6: toxic trash here and then ship it down the road

1356
01:19:12,080 --> 01:19:14,400
Speaker 6: to the next town and say, okay, well we're done

1357
01:19:14,439 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 6: with that. That's not responsible to make that next town

1358
01:19:18,320 --> 01:19:20,160
Speaker 6: have to deal, you know, or maybe there maybe there

1359
01:19:20,200 --> 01:19:23,479
Speaker 6: were some people in that town that wanted it, you know,

1360
01:19:23,640 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 6: but that's not fair to the other people to have

1361
01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:27,479
Speaker 6: to breathe in that air and it brings that water

1362
01:19:27,640 --> 01:19:31,280
Speaker 6: that's that's poisoned by this. That's not that's not being responsible,

1363
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:33,920
Speaker 6: you know what I mean. So it really is an

1364
01:19:34,000 --> 01:19:42,120
Speaker 6: ethical question, you know, what what space these toxic objects

1365
01:19:42,160 --> 01:19:46,680
Speaker 6: are going to inhabit. And so we were unable to

1366
01:19:46,880 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 6: find any responsible actors who would take this on. And

1367
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:55,439
Speaker 6: so then it kind of it's like, well, I guess

1368
01:19:55,479 --> 01:19:58,840
Speaker 6: it's kind of on us. We have to you know,

1369
01:19:59,160 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 6: like the Smithsonian. It's like, we're not the attic for

1370
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:02,160
Speaker 6: your racist trash.

1371
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:02,519
Speaker 3: You know.

1372
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:04,880
Speaker 6: It's like it's really it's it's on us. It's on

1373
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:09,920
Speaker 6: communities to figure this out, you know. And if there isn't, uh,

1374
01:20:10,160 --> 01:20:13,479
Speaker 6: you know, some sort of organization that can responsibly curate this,

1375
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:16,479
Speaker 6: you know, and care for it, then you know, we

1376
01:20:16,600 --> 01:20:19,639
Speaker 6: really need to think about it. And in the case

1377
01:20:19,680 --> 01:20:23,720
Speaker 6: of this Lee statue, of Charlottesville's Lee statue, you know,

1378
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:26,880
Speaker 6: there are about I think there are about sixteen monuments

1379
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:29,759
Speaker 6: of Lee, like kind of equestrian monuments of this sort,

1380
01:20:29,880 --> 01:20:33,360
Speaker 6: you know, in the country. I can say with confidence

1381
01:20:33,439 --> 01:20:38,280
Speaker 6: that all of the others are of better quality. In Charlottesville.

1382
01:20:39,720 --> 01:20:43,080
Speaker 7: That's it's such an important point, right because this is,

1383
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:46,040
Speaker 7: you know, an important historical piece of art. And that's

1384
01:20:46,160 --> 01:20:48,440
Speaker 7: true of some of them. Some of them are legitimate

1385
01:20:48,560 --> 01:20:50,080
Speaker 7: pieces of but this one is not.

1386
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:50,840
Speaker 1: No.

1387
01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:53,000
Speaker 7: I mean, it was like he was smuggling hams in

1388
01:20:53,080 --> 01:20:53,679
Speaker 7: his sleeves.

1389
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 6: Oh well yeah, so yeah, it's it's terrible. It's really

1390
01:20:57,400 --> 01:21:00,600
Speaker 6: a case The Lee statue from Charlottesville is really a

1391
01:21:00,680 --> 01:21:03,680
Speaker 6: case of too many chefs spoiled the soup. You know,

1392
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:11,920
Speaker 6: they the guy, you know, they the original sculptor, Schradie,

1393
01:21:12,640 --> 01:21:16,080
Speaker 6: you know, was commissioned to do this, this this work,

1394
01:21:16,520 --> 01:21:18,400
Speaker 6: and he got behind on the commission because he was

1395
01:21:18,439 --> 01:21:23,720
Speaker 6: finishing another another work of his, which is generally regarded

1396
01:21:23,800 --> 01:21:27,040
Speaker 6: as his magnum opus, which is a monument to General Grant.

1397
01:21:28,680 --> 01:21:32,000
Speaker 6: I just love that. It's just sorry you got to

1398
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 6: wait and working on my best piece.

1399
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 7: Ready finished a beautiful statue of Grant.

1400
01:21:36,520 --> 01:21:40,479
Speaker 6: And then he died, And then he died. He died,

1401
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:43,240
Speaker 6: and and supposedly it might be apocryphal. I kind of

1402
01:21:43,360 --> 01:21:46,240
Speaker 6: like this tale that supposedly when he's on his deathbed TRD,

1403
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:49,040
Speaker 6: he's on his death bending and he's still thinking about

1404
01:21:49,080 --> 01:21:52,640
Speaker 6: that unfinished lead. Probably he's like, oh, mind the you know,

1405
01:21:53,080 --> 01:21:54,519
Speaker 6: mind the cloth, you know, keep.

1406
01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:56,719
Speaker 7: It damp, you know, keeps the plaster wet, right.

1407
01:21:56,720 --> 01:21:59,280
Speaker 6: Yes, keep the plaster. He'd made a maquette, he'd made

1408
01:21:59,320 --> 01:22:02,880
Speaker 6: a model, play model of the Lee statue for Charlottesville

1409
01:22:02,960 --> 01:22:06,759
Speaker 6: for that next commission, the unfinished commission. And he dies

1410
01:22:07,600 --> 01:22:09,800
Speaker 6: and so now it's like, well, you know, this is

1411
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:14,200
Speaker 6: a problem, you know, for for the philanthropist and the

1412
01:22:14,280 --> 01:22:17,000
Speaker 6: community or the community leaders of Charlesville who wanted this

1413
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:20,320
Speaker 6: Lee statue. So they find they find a ringer, you know,

1414
01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:26,360
Speaker 6: this young guy, you know, Leolntelly. Interesting, you know, Italian

1415
01:22:26,920 --> 01:22:29,200
Speaker 6: immigrant in the twenties, which is kind of interesting, you

1416
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:30,679
Speaker 6: know when you think about, you know, all the hate

1417
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 6: that was being.

1418
01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:33,800
Speaker 7: Whipped before it towns were white, right, that was.

1419
01:22:33,800 --> 01:22:36,000
Speaker 6: Before Italians were white. But he was, yeah, kind of

1420
01:22:36,200 --> 01:22:38,880
Speaker 6: direct from Italy and from a sculpting background. So maybe

1421
01:22:38,920 --> 01:22:41,799
Speaker 6: they made a little exception for him, I don't know. Anyway,

1422
01:22:41,880 --> 01:22:44,080
Speaker 6: so this young guy, you know, Leo Lintell, he takes

1423
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:50,120
Speaker 6: over and you know, he probably need a little more practice.

1424
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:50,640
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1425
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:52,200
Speaker 6: It just didn't turn out well.

1426
01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:54,680
Speaker 7: It went to the Lego tail on traveler like a

1427
01:22:54,800 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 7: chunky No.

1428
01:22:56,000 --> 01:22:57,760
Speaker 2: It's just yeah, there was.

1429
01:22:57,880 --> 01:23:01,439
Speaker 6: We had a sculptor from around here who himself works

1430
01:23:01,479 --> 01:23:04,080
Speaker 6: in bronze and dusk monumental work, and he kind of

1431
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:05,400
Speaker 6: just kind of came and looked at it and he

1432
01:23:05,560 --> 01:23:09,080
Speaker 6: was just you know, just everything's out of proportion. The

1433
01:23:09,200 --> 01:23:14,120
Speaker 6: gauntlets on the glove are too thick, you know, the

1434
01:23:14,320 --> 01:23:17,760
Speaker 6: sword is too long, the tail is too fat, I

1435
01:23:17,800 --> 01:23:22,240
Speaker 6: mean in his head. Yeah, that Lee's head on top

1436
01:23:22,320 --> 01:23:24,439
Speaker 6: of his shoulders. It just looks like, you know, kind

1437
01:23:24,479 --> 01:23:26,720
Speaker 6: of like almost like Transformer toy or something. I mean,

1438
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 6: it's just really weird, you know, proportions. It's just it

1439
01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:33,759
Speaker 6: just really was not very well executed because apparently the maquette,

1440
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:37,080
Speaker 6: the model that had been made, just was completely destroyed.

1441
01:23:37,120 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 6: The model, the original model by Schrady, was completely turned

1442
01:23:40,080 --> 01:23:43,680
Speaker 6: to dust, and so Lintelly, the successor sculptor, had to

1443
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:47,320
Speaker 6: work from the drawings that that that remained, you know,

1444
01:23:48,160 --> 01:23:50,760
Speaker 6: and you know, it just didn't didn't really go very well.

1445
01:23:51,000 --> 01:23:56,200
Speaker 6: And here's the thing that even the Boosters at the time,

1446
01:23:57,200 --> 01:23:59,320
Speaker 6: that is, you know, the folks that were planning the

1447
01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:01,400
Speaker 6: in for the installation of the leaf statue in the

1448
01:24:01,479 --> 01:24:06,840
Speaker 6: nineteen twenties themselves did not think it was very well executed.

1449
01:24:07,160 --> 01:24:11,960
Speaker 6: We have diary entries from the Master of Ceremonies of

1450
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 6: the installation ceremony, RTW Duke's and he says, he writes

1451
01:24:16,320 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 6: in it's like day or two before the installation, he says,

1452
01:24:20,000 --> 01:24:23,400
Speaker 6: went on a walk, you know tonight, you know, went

1453
01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:25,599
Speaker 6: by the park, you know, saw the Lea statue.

1454
01:24:25,680 --> 01:24:27,920
Speaker 7: I do not like it me either.

1455
01:24:28,320 --> 01:24:33,160
Speaker 6: This is the guy who's please damn see this unveiling

1456
01:24:33,280 --> 01:24:35,599
Speaker 6: ceremony in you know, the next day or two.

1457
01:24:36,120 --> 01:24:36,800
Speaker 7: How embarrassing.

1458
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:40,599
Speaker 6: Yeah, and there's op eds even, you know. Also they're

1459
01:24:40,600 --> 01:24:44,360
Speaker 6: saying like wow, you know, that just doesn't look good

1460
01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 6: at all, you know. So and these are the these

1461
01:24:48,240 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 6: are the support these are the Neo Confederates, the one

1462
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:54,160
Speaker 6: it there. And they've they've noticed that too many cooks

1463
01:24:54,200 --> 01:24:58,200
Speaker 6: spoiled the soup, you know. And then apparently the murmurs

1464
01:24:58,880 --> 01:25:03,880
Speaker 6: were sufficient that one of the speakers at the installation ceremony,

1465
01:25:04,640 --> 01:25:07,320
Speaker 6: I can harken back to that, you know, at the

1466
01:25:07,400 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 6: Lee installation ceremony, you know, I guess felt compelled to

1467
01:25:11,560 --> 01:25:15,479
Speaker 6: address the complaints that were apparently circulating. And he said,

1468
01:25:16,320 --> 01:25:19,160
Speaker 6: you know, I'm talking about the proportionality problem that I

1469
01:25:19,280 --> 01:25:21,840
Speaker 6: mentioned before, that just so many it's just very disjointed,

1470
01:25:21,920 --> 01:25:24,280
Speaker 6: you know, so many parts of the of the monument

1471
01:25:24,320 --> 01:25:26,479
Speaker 6: are out of proportion to other parts. And so this

1472
01:25:26,600 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 6: speaker at the installation ceremony said, you know, there are

1473
01:25:29,960 --> 01:25:34,960
Speaker 6: those who say that the pedestal you know, upon which

1474
01:25:35,960 --> 01:25:40,000
Speaker 6: the Lee statue is, you know, is set, is too small,

1475
01:25:41,000 --> 01:25:45,160
Speaker 6: But I say the world itself is too small a

1476
01:25:45,280 --> 01:25:46,920
Speaker 6: pedestal for general Lee.

1477
01:25:49,560 --> 01:25:53,679
Speaker 2: Just like oh yeah, good say it's it's yeah, yeah, yeah.

1478
01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:56,200
Speaker 7: I mean the whole thing, the plinth was too small,

1479
01:25:56,479 --> 01:25:58,680
Speaker 7: the statue was too large for that tiny park. It

1480
01:25:58,840 --> 01:26:00,800
Speaker 7: just it was never a good spot for him.

1481
01:26:01,120 --> 01:26:03,280
Speaker 6: It was never a good spot. So anyway, all that

1482
01:26:03,479 --> 01:26:05,639
Speaker 6: is to say, it's a very it's a very poor

1483
01:26:05,800 --> 01:26:08,600
Speaker 6: work of art, just just an aesthetic.

1484
01:26:09,280 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 1: I mean.

1485
01:26:09,680 --> 01:26:11,960
Speaker 6: And I'm not one that wants to remove, you know,

1486
01:26:12,040 --> 01:26:14,400
Speaker 6: kind of any moral considerations from aesthetic. There are some

1487
01:26:14,439 --> 01:26:16,640
Speaker 6: people philosophers who want to parse that out and this

1488
01:26:16,720 --> 01:26:19,360
Speaker 6: sort of thing. But even if you believe you could

1489
01:26:19,400 --> 01:26:22,600
Speaker 6: do that, which I do not, you know, it's just

1490
01:26:22,800 --> 01:26:26,919
Speaker 6: really a not It's like having a high school art project.

1491
01:26:28,040 --> 01:26:30,639
Speaker 6: A C I give it a c it's a high

1492
01:26:30,640 --> 01:26:32,040
Speaker 6: school art project.

1493
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:35,080
Speaker 7: That it's not worth saving, right, No, Like even if

1494
01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:37,320
Speaker 7: it had not been this sort of lightning rod in

1495
01:26:37,360 --> 01:26:39,760
Speaker 7: our community, right that, even if this were a you know,

1496
01:26:40,080 --> 01:26:42,880
Speaker 7: a beautiful piece of art that was worth saving, I

1497
01:26:42,920 --> 01:26:45,280
Speaker 7: don't know, I don't know. There's there's two separate concerns, right, Like,

1498
01:26:45,360 --> 01:26:48,720
Speaker 7: it's not beautiful enough to put into a museum regardless,

1499
01:26:49,479 --> 01:26:53,880
Speaker 7: but then also preserving this object in any capacity just

1500
01:26:55,560 --> 01:26:57,880
Speaker 7: allows it to sort of continue to be this lightning rod,

1501
01:26:58,000 --> 01:27:00,880
Speaker 7: like you know, for it's sort of asking about, well,

1502
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:04,000
Speaker 7: what's the problem with recontextualization. Why can't you just put

1503
01:27:04,080 --> 01:27:06,560
Speaker 7: it somewhere else? And I think that's sort of a

1504
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:09,679
Speaker 7: broader conversation about these statues in general. But for our statue,

1505
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:12,400
Speaker 7: for that Robert E. Lee statue, right that it had

1506
01:27:12,479 --> 01:27:16,879
Speaker 7: become sort of a pilgrimage site for vigilanti violence.

1507
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:20,080
Speaker 6: Oh yeah, And I don't know that like just out

1508
01:27:20,680 --> 01:27:24,639
Speaker 6: for the listeners in radio land, just for folks out

1509
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:29,280
Speaker 6: there listening that even after the twenty seventeen Unite the

1510
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:33,000
Speaker 6: Right rally, this statue stood for another four years in

1511
01:27:33,080 --> 01:27:37,799
Speaker 6: our part while we had to wrestle through legal issues

1512
01:27:37,960 --> 01:27:44,120
Speaker 6: legislative and judicial entanglements that prevented Charlottesville from removing that

1513
01:27:44,240 --> 01:27:47,639
Speaker 6: statue even after the Unite the Right rally, and during

1514
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:51,439
Speaker 6: that time, that four year interim. It's crazy to think

1515
01:27:51,439 --> 01:27:54,800
Speaker 6: about it, Huh. For ye that for four years after

1516
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:56,240
Speaker 6: Unite the Riot, it was still there.

1517
01:27:56,439 --> 01:27:58,840
Speaker 7: Like this statue made everyone else realize they needed to

1518
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:01,479
Speaker 7: get rid of theirs. But because of state law and

1519
01:28:01,520 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 7: these lawsuits, we were still stuck with ours.

1520
01:28:04,280 --> 01:28:06,640
Speaker 6: Charlottesville was still stuck with it. And there were and

1521
01:28:06,960 --> 01:28:12,120
Speaker 6: these you know, different groups, some of the same constituencies

1522
01:28:12,200 --> 01:28:15,600
Speaker 6: that had attended Unite the Right continued to come and

1523
01:28:15,720 --> 01:28:20,400
Speaker 6: make their pilgrimages to the Lee statue and to antagonize

1524
01:28:20,439 --> 01:28:24,800
Speaker 6: community members by putting up their propaganda near the statues

1525
01:28:25,680 --> 01:28:29,280
Speaker 6: and even uh you know, going to the fourth you know,

1526
01:28:29,360 --> 01:28:31,559
Speaker 6: the the crash site on Fourth Street where a neo

1527
01:28:31,680 --> 01:28:35,080
Speaker 6: Nazi drove his car you know, into a crowd of

1528
01:28:35,280 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 6: of Charlottesville counter protesters and killed community member Heather Hire.

1529
01:28:40,800 --> 01:28:44,240
Speaker 6: These these uh fascists you know, who would make their

1530
01:28:44,280 --> 01:28:48,400
Speaker 6: pilgrimage to Charlottesville, would make sure and still do upon occasion,

1531
01:28:48,960 --> 01:28:51,599
Speaker 6: uh go to Fourth Street and put up their propaganda there.

1532
01:28:51,680 --> 01:28:55,040
Speaker 6: As well as if to kind of further antagonize the

1533
01:28:55,120 --> 01:28:59,000
Speaker 6: community out of sight of our trauma, you know, And

1534
01:28:59,160 --> 01:29:02,800
Speaker 6: so it was very clear that this statue would just

1535
01:29:02,880 --> 01:29:04,760
Speaker 6: wherever it would be, it would continue to be a

1536
01:29:04,840 --> 01:29:07,720
Speaker 6: beacon for these people. And so really it was just

1537
01:29:07,840 --> 01:29:12,280
Speaker 6: kind of a question of responsibility. Knowing this, knowing that

1538
01:29:12,400 --> 01:29:18,960
Speaker 6: no responsible historical or artistic institution has the capacity or

1539
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:21,479
Speaker 6: desire to take it in, what does one do with it?

1540
01:29:21,880 --> 01:29:25,040
Speaker 6: And that it's not an exemplary piece of art. There

1541
01:29:25,080 --> 01:29:28,559
Speaker 6: are fifteen other monuments that are of better quality of lee.

1542
01:29:28,640 --> 01:29:31,400
Speaker 6: We're not going to forget him, you know, if this

1543
01:29:31,560 --> 01:29:35,479
Speaker 6: particular specimen goes missing, and the way we see it,

1544
01:29:36,000 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 6: we're doing the art world a favor because as I've said,

1545
01:29:38,439 --> 01:29:41,760
Speaker 6: it was really you know, not a very good, well

1546
01:29:41,840 --> 01:29:45,440
Speaker 6: executed piece of art. So, you know, with in considering

1547
01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:49,960
Speaker 6: all of that, you know, in seeing in prior removals,

1548
01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:55,799
Speaker 6: for instance, the Johnny reb the Courthouse Confederate soldier statue

1549
01:29:55,920 --> 01:29:57,800
Speaker 6: was removed, and there was kind of no plan in

1550
01:29:57,920 --> 01:30:00,840
Speaker 6: place about where it would go, and so it ended up,

1551
01:30:01,120 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 6: you know, getting sent to a battlefield that is maintained

1552
01:30:05,040 --> 01:30:10,080
Speaker 6: by a group of Confederate leading folks that seemed to

1553
01:30:10,200 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 6: favor kind of lost cause interpretations of the war. So

1554
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:17,280
Speaker 6: we'd seen that happen already the year before in twenty twenty,

1555
01:30:17,720 --> 01:30:20,320
Speaker 6: that when there isn't a plan, it's one thing to

1556
01:30:20,400 --> 01:30:22,080
Speaker 6: remove it, but then where does it go? Again, this

1557
01:30:22,160 --> 01:30:25,439
Speaker 6: is a physical object that exists in space, in physical space,

1558
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:27,600
Speaker 6: where is this material object going to go? If you

1559
01:30:27,600 --> 01:30:32,360
Speaker 6: don't have a plan, then bad things can happen.

1560
01:30:32,520 --> 01:30:35,400
Speaker 7: The least resistance the past, the least resistance is just

1561
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:38,160
Speaker 7: if someone says I will pay to move this, and

1562
01:30:38,240 --> 01:30:40,120
Speaker 7: the city is paying to store it, then that's an

1563
01:30:40,120 --> 01:30:41,559
Speaker 7: easy answer and you can't let that.

1564
01:30:41,600 --> 01:30:44,680
Speaker 6: Many take it, right, And so that that went. So

1565
01:30:45,240 --> 01:30:49,519
Speaker 6: when the County Aldmarle County removed the Johnny reb statue,

1566
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:52,960
Speaker 6: the Confederate soldier statue from in front of the courthouse,

1567
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:57,479
Speaker 6: and I think that was September of twenty twenty, and

1568
01:30:57,640 --> 01:31:00,240
Speaker 6: we saw how quickly that got sent to this battle

1569
01:31:00,280 --> 01:31:02,680
Speaker 6: field that is, you know, maintained by these you know,

1570
01:31:02,800 --> 01:31:07,960
Speaker 6: kind of lost cause type folks. That's when Andrea Douglas

1571
01:31:08,080 --> 01:31:10,320
Speaker 6: and I and Andrea Douglas is the director of the

1572
01:31:10,479 --> 01:31:15,800
Speaker 6: Jefferson School African American Heritage Center here in Charlottesville. We said,

1573
01:31:16,960 --> 01:31:19,280
Speaker 6: you know, we still do not have the legal authority

1574
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:27,080
Speaker 6: to remove Charlottesville's Lee statue, but we anticipated that that perhaps,

1575
01:31:27,320 --> 01:31:29,240
Speaker 6: you know, in the in the coming year, we might

1576
01:31:29,400 --> 01:31:33,120
Speaker 6: I said, we need to start making plans now about

1577
01:31:33,200 --> 01:31:36,880
Speaker 6: what can have, what where the statue should go after

1578
01:31:37,000 --> 01:31:42,000
Speaker 6: its removal, because otherwise, the same thing that happened to

1579
01:31:42,080 --> 01:31:44,800
Speaker 6: this Johnny reb to this Confederate Soldier statue just kind

1580
01:31:44,840 --> 01:31:47,040
Speaker 6: of getting sent down the road, you know, to whatever

1581
01:31:47,360 --> 01:31:50,719
Speaker 6: entity organization that wants it, the same thing's going to happen.

1582
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:53,960
Speaker 6: And we need to have a plan in place in

1583
01:31:54,160 --> 01:31:57,160
Speaker 6: order to kind of capture that so that so that

1584
01:31:57,360 --> 01:32:00,679
Speaker 6: it doesn't just kind of continue to circulate to do harm.

1585
01:32:01,120 --> 01:32:03,680
Speaker 6: So that was our motivation. So we kind of, you know,

1586
01:32:03,800 --> 01:32:07,400
Speaker 6: in September of twenty twenty, that's when we really you know,

1587
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:10,240
Speaker 6: put the pedal to the metal on starting the planning

1588
01:32:10,840 --> 01:32:13,200
Speaker 6: of this, you know, and we and mind you, we

1589
01:32:13,320 --> 01:32:15,280
Speaker 6: did not even get permission until I think it was

1590
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:18,360
Speaker 6: April the first of twenty twenty one, when finally the

1591
01:32:18,479 --> 01:32:21,560
Speaker 6: Virginia Supreme Court ruled in favor of the City of

1592
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:26,040
Speaker 6: Charlottesville in our efforts to remove the lea statue.

1593
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:26,479
Speaker 5: You know.

1594
01:32:26,600 --> 01:32:29,280
Speaker 6: So this was you know, six seven months before we

1595
01:32:29,400 --> 01:32:31,439
Speaker 6: even knew if we if we could do this, but

1596
01:32:31,520 --> 01:32:34,759
Speaker 6: we said, let's start making plans. And so we started

1597
01:32:34,800 --> 01:32:41,240
Speaker 6: having these kinds of conversations you know, with battlefields, with museums,

1598
01:32:41,680 --> 01:32:45,880
Speaker 6: with foundries, you know, just you know, just learning, you know,

1599
01:32:46,000 --> 01:32:47,840
Speaker 6: kind of the nuts and bolts, you know, what are

1600
01:32:47,920 --> 01:32:52,320
Speaker 6: the possibilities here? And it turns out it's very complicated.

1601
01:33:05,880 --> 01:33:07,760
Speaker 7: Right, So, I know there'd been sort of jokes around

1602
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:09,160
Speaker 7: that it was going back over some of the public

1603
01:33:09,240 --> 01:33:11,360
Speaker 7: discourse over the years that we've been sort of joking

1604
01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:13,200
Speaker 7: as a community for years like why don't we just

1605
01:33:13,360 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 7: melt it? Why don't we just melt it?

1606
01:33:15,439 --> 01:33:15,679
Speaker 6: Yeah?

1607
01:33:15,800 --> 01:33:20,760
Speaker 7: But when did that become a real idea? Like when

1608
01:33:20,800 --> 01:33:22,559
Speaker 7: did it? When did that sort of coalesce into something

1609
01:33:22,600 --> 01:33:23,439
Speaker 7: that felt possible?

1610
01:33:24,360 --> 01:33:26,960
Speaker 6: I think, you know, in September twenty twenty, I think

1611
01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 6: when the Johnny reb statue was removed and it went on,

1612
01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:33,400
Speaker 6: you know to the Shenandoah Valley Battlefield Foundation, you know,

1613
01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 6: and they have this horrible plaque that they're putting up

1614
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:40,880
Speaker 6: that talks about how these men died for Virginia, you know,

1615
01:33:40,960 --> 01:33:43,160
Speaker 6: and It's like they died for thirty eight percent of

1616
01:33:43,280 --> 01:33:45,720
Speaker 6: Virginian's were enslaved at that time, So how are you

1617
01:33:45,800 --> 01:33:48,519
Speaker 6: saying that they died for Virginia. Also, this is from

1618
01:33:48,560 --> 01:33:51,160
Speaker 6: Alba Marle County. The majority of people here were enslaved.

1619
01:33:51,200 --> 01:33:54,439
Speaker 6: So did how did the people supposedly represented by this

1620
01:33:54,520 --> 01:33:57,160
Speaker 6: statue die for Virginia fight for Virginia?

1621
01:33:57,200 --> 01:33:57,600
Speaker 3: You know what I mean?

1622
01:33:57,680 --> 01:34:00,439
Speaker 6: So we just like that was so disturbing, you know,

1623
01:34:00,560 --> 01:34:03,639
Speaker 6: in September of twenty twenty, when that happened, that's that's

1624
01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 6: really when I just really started working in Earnest, you know,

1625
01:34:08,160 --> 01:34:09,200
Speaker 6: calling foundries.

1626
01:34:09,360 --> 01:34:10,639
Speaker 7: So the idea was always melting.

1627
01:34:11,600 --> 01:34:14,360
Speaker 6: I mean, it wasn't until then because see this is funny.

1628
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:18,320
Speaker 6: When this whole controversy started in twenty sixteen, when Ziona

1629
01:34:18,360 --> 01:34:22,200
Speaker 6: Bryant brought up her petition, you know, to consider removing

1630
01:34:22,360 --> 01:34:26,040
Speaker 6: these statues. The position of the activist then was just

1631
01:34:26,400 --> 01:34:29,120
Speaker 6: move the statue. Go back and look right at the

1632
01:34:29,320 --> 01:34:32,640
Speaker 6: signs and at the T shirts and it says hashtag

1633
01:34:33,040 --> 01:34:36,720
Speaker 6: move the statue. We just wanted it move. Just take

1634
01:34:36,800 --> 01:34:39,240
Speaker 6: it from the Central Park and put it out in

1635
01:34:39,360 --> 01:34:42,719
Speaker 6: McIntyre Park where there's more space. Don't have it downtown.

1636
01:34:42,800 --> 01:34:45,240
Speaker 7: I mean that was kind of like that was the edgy,

1637
01:34:48,479 --> 01:34:50,800
Speaker 7: you know, and then they should have taken the opportunity

1638
01:34:50,840 --> 01:34:51,280
Speaker 7: back then.

1639
01:34:51,560 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 6: See right, exactly that was the opening bid, and you

1640
01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 6: should have took it.

1641
01:34:56,479 --> 01:34:56,640
Speaker 3: You know.

1642
01:34:57,200 --> 01:34:59,759
Speaker 7: Just these that offers not on the table anymore.

1643
01:35:00,200 --> 01:35:01,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly that that.

1644
01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:04,679
Speaker 6: That would have been good. It would be in Martin

1645
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 6: mctre part on the outskirts of town. So and so,

1646
01:35:08,760 --> 01:35:11,960
Speaker 6: you know, when the when you know, the city appointed

1647
01:35:12,000 --> 01:35:14,639
Speaker 6: this Blue Ribbon Commission on Race Memorials in Public Spaces

1648
01:35:14,720 --> 01:35:16,960
Speaker 6: to have a series of public meetings to hear from

1649
01:35:17,560 --> 01:35:20,400
Speaker 6: community members what they wanted to have happened with the statues.

1650
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:23,320
Speaker 6: Should they be removed, should you know, what should happen?

1651
01:35:23,760 --> 01:35:25,760
Speaker 6: And you know, and this Blue Ribbon Commission, you know,

1652
01:35:25,840 --> 01:35:29,240
Speaker 6: hands their final report to city council, you know, and

1653
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:32,920
Speaker 6: then city council takes a vote, you know, Charlottesville City

1654
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:38,679
Speaker 6: Council in February of twenty seventeen, and surprising many people,

1655
01:35:38,960 --> 01:35:40,439
Speaker 6: not some of us who were in the know, but

1656
01:35:41,120 --> 01:35:44,040
Speaker 6: one of the council members said, yes, I would like

1657
01:35:44,200 --> 01:35:48,519
Speaker 6: to propose a resolution to remove the lead, not just

1658
01:35:48,640 --> 01:35:52,080
Speaker 6: move it, not just recontextualize it, because that's you know,

1659
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:54,080
Speaker 6: if you go back and read that report, it's actually

1660
01:35:54,200 --> 01:35:57,160
Speaker 6: fairly there's a couple of different suggests like well you

1661
01:35:57,240 --> 01:36:00,560
Speaker 6: could move it, or you could just do this, and

1662
01:36:00,920 --> 01:36:04,360
Speaker 6: you know, and city council woman, you know, Christian Zaka, said,

1663
01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:07,640
Speaker 6: I would you know, make a motion to have it

1664
01:36:07,760 --> 01:36:11,720
Speaker 6: removed completely, you know. So it's like, whoa, Okay, we're

1665
01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:13,960
Speaker 6: you know, we're making steps, you know. So it was

1666
01:36:14,120 --> 01:36:16,120
Speaker 6: it was about, you know, it was getting from move

1667
01:36:16,600 --> 01:36:20,400
Speaker 6: from move the statue to remove the statue, as in

1668
01:36:21,280 --> 01:36:24,880
Speaker 6: take it away, you know, And then it really wasn't

1669
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:28,680
Speaker 6: until after all the strife, you know. I mean, I

1670
01:36:28,920 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 6: think there were some people all along who's you know,

1671
01:36:31,280 --> 01:36:32,920
Speaker 6: would say tongue and she go, oh, we should just

1672
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:35,080
Speaker 6: melt it down, you know, or you know, she'd you know,

1673
01:36:35,439 --> 01:36:37,439
Speaker 6: but but the thought it was just so you know,

1674
01:36:37,520 --> 01:36:40,519
Speaker 6: talk about there's much talk of overton windows these days.

1675
01:36:40,360 --> 01:36:43,200
Speaker 2: You know, but they're just they're just.

1676
01:36:44,840 --> 01:36:46,560
Speaker 6: When that was being said, it was always in a

1677
01:36:46,680 --> 01:36:49,080
Speaker 6: kind of jocular manner like oh, of course that could

1678
01:36:49,200 --> 01:36:51,600
Speaker 6: never be but or we should melt it down. It

1679
01:36:51,680 --> 01:36:56,320
Speaker 6: was this kind of offhand right, It wasn't serious because

1680
01:36:56,439 --> 01:36:59,880
Speaker 6: how could that ever be, right, I mean that right,

1681
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:02,599
Speaker 6: Really that was behind. But what it takes is somebody

1682
01:37:02,760 --> 01:37:06,120
Speaker 6: taking that seriously and like going through the practical steps

1683
01:37:06,160 --> 01:37:07,960
Speaker 6: of what would that look like? And so that's what

1684
01:37:08,040 --> 01:37:11,000
Speaker 6: I started doing in September twenty twenty. It's like, I

1685
01:37:11,120 --> 01:37:13,599
Speaker 6: keep hearing people say that they want it melted down.

1686
01:37:13,720 --> 01:37:14,560
Speaker 1: What would that look like?

1687
01:37:15,240 --> 01:37:16,880
Speaker 7: What do you like physically do that?

1688
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:20,200
Speaker 6: How would this happen? I'm a humanities person. This was

1689
01:37:20,320 --> 01:37:24,480
Speaker 6: breaking my brain learning about alloys and you know, compositions.

1690
01:37:24,560 --> 01:37:26,960
Speaker 7: Here it becomes an engineering problem.

1691
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:30,320
Speaker 6: It really did. Yeah, and I did. I consulted with

1692
01:37:30,840 --> 01:37:36,120
Speaker 6: you know, metallurgist engineers, you know, folks at various foundries

1693
01:37:36,520 --> 01:37:39,360
Speaker 6: you know, to to you know, consulting and say, well,

1694
01:37:39,400 --> 01:37:40,920
Speaker 6: you have to do this, you have to you know,

1695
01:37:41,040 --> 01:37:43,720
Speaker 6: consider that. I mean so yeah, it was really in

1696
01:37:43,840 --> 01:37:47,080
Speaker 6: the fall of twenty twenty when you know, kind of

1697
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:51,440
Speaker 6: in Earnest started having conversations, you know, with with foundrymen

1698
01:37:52,200 --> 01:37:58,360
Speaker 6: and with engineers, with folks that work in bronze casting,

1699
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:01,120
Speaker 6: you know. But most of the time people didn't want

1700
01:38:01,160 --> 01:38:05,200
Speaker 6: to talk to us. Right when they found out, oh

1701
01:38:05,280 --> 01:38:07,040
Speaker 6: you want to do something with this with the staff,

1702
01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:10,559
Speaker 6: Oh no, they just you know, they were they didn't

1703
01:38:10,560 --> 01:38:12,840
Speaker 6: want to be involved in any controversy, or we would

1704
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:15,360
Speaker 6: get someone who was on board with it, Yes, we're

1705
01:38:15,400 --> 01:38:18,040
Speaker 6: going to do it. And then for instance, you know,

1706
01:38:18,280 --> 01:38:21,439
Speaker 6: the company got sold and the new owners were like

1707
01:38:21,560 --> 01:38:25,040
Speaker 6: want nothing to do with it, you know, or they

1708
01:38:25,080 --> 01:38:27,880
Speaker 6: won't call us back anymore, or no, or you know,

1709
01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:30,720
Speaker 6: I mean just things just kept coming up. So it

1710
01:38:30,840 --> 01:38:34,800
Speaker 6: was hard to find anyone who would just engage in

1711
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 6: a serious way about the questions. And then even when

1712
01:38:37,840 --> 01:38:41,360
Speaker 6: you could, it was kind of like, you know, you'd

1713
01:38:41,400 --> 01:38:43,479
Speaker 6: get somebody for a little bit, and then it was like,

1714
01:38:43,560 --> 01:38:46,040
Speaker 6: you know, like the fisher, It's like the fish would

1715
01:38:46,040 --> 01:38:47,600
Speaker 6: swim away, you know, kind of I don't know it

1716
01:38:47,720 --> 01:38:49,880
Speaker 6: just you know, So it was it was a lot

1717
01:38:49,960 --> 01:38:52,640
Speaker 6: of different conversations with a lot of different people, you know,

1718
01:38:53,280 --> 01:38:55,280
Speaker 6: along the way to figure out like what are the

1719
01:38:55,520 --> 01:38:57,920
Speaker 6: you know, literal and figurative nuts and bolts of doing this.

1720
01:38:58,120 --> 01:39:02,240
Speaker 6: You know, I learned a lot, you know about standard

1721
01:39:02,320 --> 01:39:05,720
Speaker 6: width of trailers eight and a half feet did you

1722
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:06,000
Speaker 6: know that?

1723
01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:06,720
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1724
01:39:07,200 --> 01:39:12,880
Speaker 6: Eight half feet yep, right right, you know, and you

1725
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:15,120
Speaker 6: know fifty three feet long, and you know, and you know,

1726
01:39:15,200 --> 01:39:17,679
Speaker 6: kind of what kind of what's the hauling capacity, what's

1727
01:39:17,720 --> 01:39:20,400
Speaker 6: the payload? You know, how do you balance the load?

1728
01:39:20,560 --> 01:39:23,120
Speaker 6: You know, what is duneage? I mean you're just like

1729
01:39:23,600 --> 01:39:26,240
Speaker 6: all these things, you know that that just the very

1730
01:39:27,160 --> 01:39:31,439
Speaker 6: practical steps that one has to take to melt a statue.

1731
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:34,320
Speaker 7: And so it seems like, you know, the conclusion that

1732
01:39:34,360 --> 01:39:39,439
Speaker 7: you reached was this object can't keep existing because the

1733
01:39:39,560 --> 01:39:42,280
Speaker 7: fact that it does exist will always be a problem.

1734
01:39:42,720 --> 01:39:44,560
Speaker 7: So that this is the decision was made that it

1735
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:46,760
Speaker 7: needed to be destroyed. But what was sort of the

1736
01:39:47,160 --> 01:39:51,400
Speaker 7: process of thinking through what do we do with it now?

1737
01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:51,720
Speaker 2: Right?

1738
01:39:51,800 --> 01:39:54,519
Speaker 7: Like, what is this sort of the vision behind not

1739
01:39:54,760 --> 01:39:57,120
Speaker 7: just yeah, you know, taking the statue down and putting

1740
01:39:57,200 --> 01:39:59,559
Speaker 7: up a different piece of public art, but a different

1741
01:39:59,560 --> 01:40:02,360
Speaker 7: piece of p look art that is physically repurposed. Right

1742
01:40:02,439 --> 01:40:06,040
Speaker 7: that you've you've remediated this material, right right?

1743
01:40:06,560 --> 01:40:10,880
Speaker 6: Yeah, well we we prefer the word transformed, you know,

1744
01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:14,560
Speaker 6: to to destroyed or or I mean it is it is,

1745
01:40:14,680 --> 01:40:17,160
Speaker 6: you know, definitely, it is you know kind of morphing

1746
01:40:17,280 --> 01:40:20,880
Speaker 6: the material is taking the materials, you know, these raw

1747
01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:27,920
Speaker 6: materials and you know, transforming them into kind of usable

1748
01:40:28,120 --> 01:40:31,320
Speaker 6: you know, kind of ingots, brick sized, you know, pieces

1749
01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:35,200
Speaker 6: of bronze. So that they can be made into something new.

1750
01:40:35,640 --> 01:40:39,439
Speaker 6: It's not that we hate art. We want art, right.

1751
01:40:39,640 --> 01:40:42,519
Speaker 7: You know doctor Douglas's her background is in art, right.

1752
01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:45,400
Speaker 6: Yes, doctor Douglas is an art historian, exact. I mean,

1753
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:48,560
Speaker 6: we are the two most unlikely people to be in

1754
01:40:48,640 --> 01:40:50,799
Speaker 6: charge of such a project. I mean, I'm a religious

1755
01:40:50,800 --> 01:40:53,679
Speaker 6: study scholar. It's like I've spent years of my life,

1756
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:58,960
Speaker 6: you know, studying you know, how people, you know, make

1757
01:40:59,080 --> 01:41:03,720
Speaker 6: make sacred values, and specifically how they gather around material

1758
01:41:03,840 --> 01:41:04,719
Speaker 6: objects that they regard.

1759
01:41:05,120 --> 01:41:07,160
Speaker 7: I don't think that's unlikely at all, right, that this

1760
01:41:07,439 --> 01:41:12,080
Speaker 7: was an object of veneration for a very harmful cause.

1761
01:41:12,160 --> 01:41:16,800
Speaker 6: I mean I seventeen years, you know, researching a book

1762
01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:22,439
Speaker 6: about a very beloved four hundred year old effigy of

1763
01:41:22,560 --> 01:41:25,360
Speaker 6: the Virgin Mary in Cuba. You can see my book

1764
01:41:25,680 --> 01:41:27,920
Speaker 6: up here. Well, there's a Cuban fly. This right here

1765
01:41:28,040 --> 01:41:28,840
Speaker 6: is my book.

1766
01:41:29,640 --> 01:41:30,479
Speaker 1: I'm going over too far.

1767
01:41:30,560 --> 01:41:31,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, I see the Virgin Mary back there.

1768
01:41:32,640 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 6: Yeah. Anyway, so I yeah, so that's that's my book

1769
01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:39,439
Speaker 6: up here. Yeah, right here, this is my book, Kachita's Streets.

1770
01:41:40,240 --> 01:41:43,320
Speaker 6: I mean, if somebody, oh, and you know, and this

1771
01:41:43,400 --> 01:41:46,680
Speaker 6: has happened before. There have been folks, you know iconoclass.

1772
01:41:46,720 --> 01:41:50,880
Speaker 6: If somebody went and destroyed her image there in that

1773
01:41:51,000 --> 01:41:55,920
Speaker 6: shrine in Cuba, I would be obsensed. I would just

1774
01:41:57,120 --> 01:41:59,280
Speaker 6: I would be beside myself. I mean it'd be like

1775
01:41:59,360 --> 01:42:04,160
Speaker 6: somebody killed you know, a family member. I mean, be

1776
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:06,160
Speaker 6: on the next plane to get you know, you have

1777
01:42:06,240 --> 01:42:08,280
Speaker 6: to console people. I mean a four hundred year old

1778
01:42:08,280 --> 01:42:11,280
Speaker 6: you know, it would just be terrible. You know, it

1779
01:42:11,320 --> 01:42:13,960
Speaker 6: doesn't have all the hate wrapped into it that these

1780
01:42:14,200 --> 01:42:16,280
Speaker 6: you know, statues do in this sort of thing. So

1781
01:42:16,439 --> 01:42:18,720
Speaker 6: what I'm saying is I understand that people have very

1782
01:42:18,760 --> 01:42:22,080
Speaker 6: tender feelings toward these material objects that they have had

1783
01:42:22,160 --> 01:42:26,800
Speaker 6: experiences around them that have bound them together. Religiare you

1784
01:42:26,880 --> 01:42:30,559
Speaker 6: know the binding that's the original you know root Latin

1785
01:42:30,720 --> 01:42:33,000
Speaker 6: root of religion. You know, it is to bind, you know.

1786
01:42:33,120 --> 01:42:37,840
Speaker 6: I get that. And so yeah, I'm not a reflexive iconoclast.

1787
01:42:38,160 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 6: You know, I'm a Catholic. I'm a you know, I'm

1788
01:42:42,280 --> 01:42:47,639
Speaker 6: also a you know, participate in these African inspired religious

1789
01:42:47,680 --> 01:42:49,479
Speaker 6: practices and stuff that you know that put a lot

1790
01:42:49,520 --> 01:42:53,960
Speaker 6: of you know, emphasis upon you know, sacred material objects.

1791
01:42:53,960 --> 01:42:55,519
Speaker 6: So I am kind of I mean, it is kind

1792
01:42:55,520 --> 01:42:57,680
Speaker 6: of weird that me I would be involved in this,

1793
01:42:57,760 --> 01:43:02,080
Speaker 6: and that, you know, and doctor Douglas, you know, but

1794
01:43:02,240 --> 01:43:06,320
Speaker 6: it's precisely because we know the power of these things,

1795
01:43:06,439 --> 01:43:10,680
Speaker 6: and the we're eyewitnesses to what happened here. You know

1796
01:43:10,760 --> 01:43:12,519
Speaker 6: that we know the power of it, and so how

1797
01:43:12,560 --> 01:43:15,320
Speaker 6: to be responsible for it, and so to take something

1798
01:43:15,439 --> 01:43:18,400
Speaker 6: like that that was so harmful and to be able

1799
01:43:18,439 --> 01:43:22,280
Speaker 6: to use its materials to transform them and to make

1800
01:43:22,360 --> 01:43:26,960
Speaker 6: something that's meaningful and beautiful and that expresses our community's

1801
01:43:27,080 --> 01:43:30,280
Speaker 6: values and that includes people rather than kind of sets

1802
01:43:31,040 --> 01:43:34,280
Speaker 6: people apart, you know, or kind of you know, symbolizing

1803
01:43:34,400 --> 01:43:39,400
Speaker 6: moments in our history where you know, over half the

1804
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:43,720
Speaker 6: local population was completely debased, you know. To be able

1805
01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:47,360
Speaker 6: to take the material that that was part of that

1806
01:43:47,640 --> 01:43:51,400
Speaker 6: and transform it into something else, it's just it's just

1807
01:43:51,439 --> 01:43:54,439
Speaker 6: seemed like it just has so much potential, you know.

1808
01:43:54,520 --> 01:43:56,240
Speaker 6: And and and then the name of the project is

1809
01:43:56,320 --> 01:43:59,840
Speaker 6: Swords into Plowshares, which comes from a verse from the

1810
01:44:00,040 --> 01:44:05,200
Speaker 6: off at Isaiah that they shall turn their swords into plowshares,

1811
01:44:05,240 --> 01:44:09,080
Speaker 6: they shall turn their their spears into pruning hooks. So

1812
01:44:09,360 --> 01:44:14,040
Speaker 6: we'll take these implements of destruction and of violence, and

1813
01:44:14,240 --> 01:44:21,320
Speaker 6: we will transform them into instruments of of to cultivate

1814
01:44:22,160 --> 01:44:27,160
Speaker 6: you know, sustenance you know, uh, you know, you know,

1815
01:44:27,840 --> 01:44:30,040
Speaker 6: nutrients you know, for a community. I mean it just

1816
01:44:30,120 --> 01:44:32,680
Speaker 6: you know, to just to just really transform it, you know,

1817
01:44:32,760 --> 01:44:36,240
Speaker 6: from from something so ugly you know, into something beautiful,

1818
01:44:36,760 --> 01:44:38,559
Speaker 6: you know. And we just thought, you know, let's let's

1819
01:44:38,640 --> 01:44:41,240
Speaker 6: take the chance. Let's try and do this. Let's do

1820
01:44:41,360 --> 01:44:43,800
Speaker 6: something that's never been done before, because none of these

1821
01:44:44,240 --> 01:44:46,920
Speaker 6: statues have ever been like I don't think ever completely

1822
01:44:47,200 --> 01:44:51,000
Speaker 6: the Confederate ones anyway, have ever been completely destroyed, you know,

1823
01:44:51,280 --> 01:44:53,559
Speaker 6: like this. Most of them are just in storage somewhere.

1824
01:44:54,600 --> 01:44:57,479
Speaker 6: And we said, let's let's take this chance to transform.

1825
01:44:57,600 --> 01:44:59,599
Speaker 6: Let's be responsible first of all, and not send our

1826
01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:02,840
Speaker 6: talks waist down the road to another community, and let's

1827
01:45:02,880 --> 01:45:06,240
Speaker 6: try to do something transformative, you know, for our community.

1828
01:45:06,360 --> 01:45:09,800
Speaker 6: And maybe this can also move the needle, you know,

1829
01:45:09,920 --> 01:45:14,360
Speaker 6: in a national and international conversation about art and the

1830
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:19,479
Speaker 6: reparative values you know, potential reparative values of art you know,

1831
01:45:20,200 --> 01:45:24,680
Speaker 6: and community building, you know, and so in our you know,

1832
01:45:24,760 --> 01:45:28,080
Speaker 6: we're the swords into Plowsher's project. We're hoping to put

1833
01:45:28,160 --> 01:45:32,720
Speaker 6: out a request for proposals, you know, to artists this

1834
01:45:32,920 --> 01:45:37,000
Speaker 6: year in twenty twenty four, which is the one hundredth

1835
01:45:37,000 --> 01:45:40,919
Speaker 6: anniversary of when the Least statue was installed. You know, ideally,

1836
01:45:41,080 --> 01:45:43,600
Speaker 6: you know, fingers crossed, if you know, it would be

1837
01:45:43,680 --> 01:45:46,840
Speaker 6: wonderful if we could have a completed statue in twenty

1838
01:45:46,920 --> 01:45:49,120
Speaker 6: twenty seven, which would be the ten year anniversary of

1839
01:45:49,160 --> 01:45:51,920
Speaker 6: the Unite the Right rally, you know, to to you know,

1840
01:45:52,000 --> 01:45:55,280
Speaker 6: to have something else to give back to our community.

1841
01:45:55,479 --> 01:45:58,680
Speaker 6: You know, that's a blasting value that, you know, and

1842
01:45:59,080 --> 01:46:01,760
Speaker 6: for us, it's important that we write our narrative. There

1843
01:46:01,800 --> 01:46:06,120
Speaker 6: were people who attacked us, you know, who tried to

1844
01:46:06,240 --> 01:46:10,160
Speaker 6: kind of imprint on us, you know, some sort of

1845
01:46:10,280 --> 01:46:12,720
Speaker 6: narrative about what we were about. And it also kind

1846
01:46:12,760 --> 01:46:15,080
Speaker 6: of you know, reverberated in a you know, national and

1847
01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:20,800
Speaker 6: international way. And we're really taking control of the narrative here.

1848
01:46:20,880 --> 01:46:22,920
Speaker 6: We're saying, you know, we we are going to say

1849
01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:26,560
Speaker 6: who we are and we're going to express that. You know,

1850
01:46:27,040 --> 01:46:31,040
Speaker 6: and we do value art, you know, we want it

1851
01:46:31,080 --> 01:46:33,120
Speaker 6: to be an art that reflects our values.

1852
01:46:34,479 --> 01:46:34,599
Speaker 2: Right.

1853
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:37,360
Speaker 7: I think this is a recognition that art does have power.

1854
01:46:37,439 --> 01:46:39,400
Speaker 7: It had the power to harm, It had the power

1855
01:46:39,479 --> 01:46:42,560
Speaker 7: to to bring great harm to this community. But it

1856
01:46:42,680 --> 01:46:44,920
Speaker 7: was you know, that art was harming people just by

1857
01:46:45,040 --> 01:46:47,120
Speaker 7: existing in that space, even before you unite the right.

1858
01:46:47,160 --> 01:46:50,600
Speaker 7: And now those same materials have hopefully the power to

1859
01:46:51,120 --> 01:46:54,920
Speaker 7: bring some repair. Yeah, So it wasn't it wasn't just

1860
01:46:55,040 --> 01:46:56,840
Speaker 7: the practical you know, I think you were saying. It

1861
01:46:56,880 --> 01:46:59,200
Speaker 7: started out a sort of a practical question is what

1862
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:01,360
Speaker 7: do you do with this large object? And so the

1863
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:05,639
Speaker 7: practical answer is you reduce its size, you melt it down,

1864
01:47:05,720 --> 01:47:08,200
Speaker 7: You remove it, and you melt it down. But it's

1865
01:47:08,240 --> 01:47:11,160
Speaker 7: not just practical, right, there is there is incredible symbolic

1866
01:47:11,320 --> 01:47:15,680
Speaker 7: value in using that material, that metal, right. I think

1867
01:47:15,720 --> 01:47:18,240
Speaker 7: in some of the articles you all talked about as

1868
01:47:18,320 --> 01:47:20,519
Speaker 7: it was melting there were impurities in the metal. So

1869
01:47:20,880 --> 01:47:24,040
Speaker 7: as this statue is being melted down, the impurities are

1870
01:47:24,080 --> 01:47:26,800
Speaker 7: being extracted from it. It's being purified, and now it

1871
01:47:26,880 --> 01:47:30,360
Speaker 7: can be repurposed. That's really beautiful, Yeah it is.

1872
01:47:30,479 --> 01:47:33,360
Speaker 6: Yeah, the slag getting pulled off the top and just yeah,

1873
01:47:33,560 --> 01:47:37,519
Speaker 6: just it was incredible, you know, to see for sure.

1874
01:47:38,360 --> 01:47:41,360
Speaker 7: And so at this stage you guys are soliciting community input.

1875
01:47:41,400 --> 01:47:43,400
Speaker 7: I think there's a sort of a community survey out

1876
01:47:43,400 --> 01:47:45,960
Speaker 7: about sort of what parks people frequent, how they're using

1877
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:48,640
Speaker 7: the parks, how they're engaging with the parks, and you

1878
01:47:48,720 --> 01:47:50,640
Speaker 7: said this year there'll be a request for proposals for

1879
01:47:50,800 --> 01:47:55,240
Speaker 7: artists to sort of put forth their vision for this bronze, right.

1880
01:47:55,439 --> 01:47:58,120
Speaker 6: And this is it's nice because this is all coinciding

1881
01:47:58,280 --> 01:48:02,439
Speaker 6: with the city if Charlotteville has for some time wanted

1882
01:48:02,520 --> 01:48:06,320
Speaker 6: to do a renovation of of its downtown park. So

1883
01:48:06,400 --> 01:48:08,200
Speaker 6: this and this has been a long time coming that

1884
01:48:08,320 --> 01:48:10,360
Speaker 6: there are you know, sedated, you know, all of this

1885
01:48:10,680 --> 01:48:13,880
Speaker 6: drama with the with the statues, but it's just really

1886
01:48:14,200 --> 01:48:17,439
Speaker 6: a nice opportunity to just kind of for the community

1887
01:48:17,520 --> 01:48:19,760
Speaker 6: to just kind of take stock. It's like, Okay, we're

1888
01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:22,800
Speaker 6: you know, we're whatever, you know, going on seven years

1889
01:48:22,840 --> 01:48:25,720
Speaker 6: out from Unite the Right. You know, we're eight years

1890
01:48:25,760 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 6: out from you know, Zionist initial petition. You know, you

1891
01:48:29,560 --> 01:48:32,040
Speaker 6: know this this statue has been you know taken away,

1892
01:48:32,040 --> 01:48:34,400
Speaker 6: it has been melted, and it just feels like a

1893
01:48:34,960 --> 01:48:37,880
Speaker 6: literal and figurative clearing of the land. You know, it

1894
01:48:38,000 --> 01:48:40,600
Speaker 6: just feels like, you know, people have asked, you know

1895
01:48:40,720 --> 01:48:42,920
Speaker 6: sometimes it's like oh, there's you know, all that empty

1896
01:48:43,000 --> 01:48:44,720
Speaker 6: space at the parks, and I was like, yeah, isn't

1897
01:48:44,720 --> 01:48:47,560
Speaker 6: it nice. It's just kind of like I mean to

1898
01:48:48,160 --> 01:48:50,200
Speaker 6: just kind of I think it's nice to just have

1899
01:48:50,920 --> 01:48:52,920
Speaker 6: just push the pause button for you know, in terms

1900
01:48:52,960 --> 01:48:55,400
Speaker 6: of things that are there for several years, and just

1901
01:48:55,479 --> 01:48:59,160
Speaker 6: kind of allow our our minds to open, you know,

1902
01:48:59,400 --> 01:49:02,800
Speaker 6: just like the the space itself and to just imagine

1903
01:49:03,000 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 6: what that space can look like. I think it's really

1904
01:49:05,960 --> 01:49:08,840
Speaker 6: instructive and I wish more communities could have the opportunity

1905
01:49:08,880 --> 01:49:11,160
Speaker 6: to do this. Actually, yes, but you know, for instance,

1906
01:49:11,240 --> 01:49:14,920
Speaker 6: taking that survey you know that that community members in

1907
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:18,200
Speaker 6: Charlottesville are doing now about you know, yeah, how do

1908
01:49:18,320 --> 01:49:21,519
Speaker 6: you know? Where where do you what parks you go to,

1909
01:49:22,520 --> 01:49:24,479
Speaker 6: what activities do you engage in there? What do you

1910
01:49:24,760 --> 01:49:26,240
Speaker 6: like you know, what would you like to see more of?

1911
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:27,200
Speaker 1: You know, this sort of thing.

1912
01:49:27,240 --> 01:49:30,240
Speaker 6: It's it's great to you know, to consider this. You

1913
01:49:30,280 --> 01:49:33,680
Speaker 6: know that this is something that has been you know,

1914
01:49:34,040 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 6: America's uh uh you know, the United States is uh,

1915
01:49:38,520 --> 01:49:41,200
Speaker 6: you know, public parks has you know, been something that

1916
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:44,439
Speaker 6: you know, since the nineteenth century. Is something that's that's

1917
01:49:44,479 --> 01:49:47,160
Speaker 6: been a real gem, you know in some of our

1918
01:49:47,240 --> 01:49:49,839
Speaker 6: our public spaces, you know, in some of our cities,

1919
01:49:49,880 --> 01:49:51,519
Speaker 6: and you know, and this is something to you know,

1920
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:54,200
Speaker 6: to celebrate, and it's it's nice to be able to

1921
01:49:54,280 --> 01:49:57,559
Speaker 6: kind of take stock to really, you know, think about

1922
01:49:57,640 --> 01:50:02,519
Speaker 6: how public spaces can express our professed values, you know.

1923
01:50:03,280 --> 01:50:06,080
Speaker 7: Instead of sort of reacting to hate, like taking a

1924
01:50:06,160 --> 01:50:09,880
Speaker 7: moment to envision not our reaction to or you know,

1925
01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:12,200
Speaker 7: what we don't want, but think about what we do

1926
01:50:12,479 --> 01:50:15,320
Speaker 7: want in that space exactly what would what would serve

1927
01:50:15,360 --> 01:50:17,880
Speaker 7: our community? And I think that's sort of where the

1928
01:50:17,920 --> 01:50:20,919
Speaker 7: project is now, right, just sort of envisioning a positive

1929
01:50:20,960 --> 01:50:23,599
Speaker 7: future rather than trying to remediate a negative past.

1930
01:50:24,320 --> 01:50:27,040
Speaker 6: And it's so nice because I felt like we were fighting, fighting,

1931
01:50:27,120 --> 01:50:29,479
Speaker 6: fighting for so many years. You know, we're in court,

1932
01:50:29,760 --> 01:50:33,000
Speaker 6: or we're protesting, or we're going to lobby at the

1933
01:50:33,080 --> 01:50:35,600
Speaker 6: General Assembly or now we're going to city council. I

1934
01:50:35,640 --> 01:50:38,320
Speaker 6: mean there was just you know all, you know, so fraught,

1935
01:50:38,800 --> 01:50:41,080
Speaker 6: and so now it's just so free to like, oh,

1936
01:50:41,479 --> 01:50:43,640
Speaker 6: to be able to imagine, you know, and to be

1937
01:50:43,720 --> 01:50:48,479
Speaker 6: thinking forward, yeah, and constructively creatively. That's a great feeling.

1938
01:50:49,479 --> 01:50:51,559
Speaker 7: So how can people sort of keep up with sorts

1939
01:50:51,600 --> 01:50:53,960
Speaker 7: into plow Shares, stay up to date on the project

1940
01:50:54,000 --> 01:50:56,880
Speaker 7: and its progress, and more importantly, how can they support

1941
01:50:56,960 --> 01:50:57,960
Speaker 7: sorts into plow Shares.

1942
01:50:58,600 --> 01:51:02,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, so you can visit Sipseville dot com. That's s

1943
01:51:03,040 --> 01:51:08,400
Speaker 6: I P C v I L l E dot com.

1944
01:51:08,640 --> 01:51:11,760
Speaker 6: So sip Cville that's Swords into Plowshires Ceville. And we

1945
01:51:11,880 --> 01:51:15,680
Speaker 6: have occasional updates there with news stories about what we're

1946
01:51:15,760 --> 01:51:20,080
Speaker 6: doing and upcoming meetings which will be happening at the

1947
01:51:20,160 --> 01:51:23,880
Speaker 6: Jefferson School, uh, where we'll be you know, kind of

1948
01:51:23,920 --> 01:51:28,880
Speaker 6: presenting results of of you know, surveys that we've done,

1949
01:51:29,080 --> 01:51:34,519
Speaker 6: you know, and uh and also visiting speakers who will

1950
01:51:34,520 --> 01:51:37,320
Speaker 6: be coming to talk about, you know, what what does

1951
01:51:37,479 --> 01:51:39,960
Speaker 6: art mean in public spaces? You know, So we'll be

1952
01:51:40,000 --> 01:51:43,200
Speaker 6: able to kind of you know, talk with uh, you know,

1953
01:51:43,280 --> 01:51:45,200
Speaker 6: some experts that have come in, you know, to advise

1954
01:51:45,400 --> 01:51:48,280
Speaker 6: us on you know, how to think about about what

1955
01:51:48,400 --> 01:51:52,400
Speaker 6: we want in our in our in our parks going forward.

1956
01:51:54,640 --> 01:51:56,960
Speaker 7: And can people make donations to s I P on

1957
01:51:57,040 --> 01:51:59,559
Speaker 7: the website, Yes, on the website, there is a portal

1958
01:51:59,640 --> 01:52:01,720
Speaker 7: right there on Sipseyville dot com.

1959
01:52:02,240 --> 01:52:04,679
Speaker 6: Definitely welcome that as well.

1960
01:52:05,240 --> 01:52:07,679
Speaker 7: And those donations go towards for the the ultimate creation

1961
01:52:07,800 --> 01:52:12,720
Speaker 7: of this piece of art. Correct, right, It is not

1962
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:14,000
Speaker 7: cheap to work with that much.

1963
01:52:13,920 --> 01:52:14,439
Speaker 2: More it is not.

1964
01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:17,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, so we're we're you know, putting together you know,

1965
01:52:17,520 --> 01:52:19,960
Speaker 6: fun to pay the artists, you know, for the commissioning

1966
01:52:20,000 --> 01:52:20,479
Speaker 6: the artists.

1967
01:52:20,479 --> 01:52:20,600
Speaker 1: You know.

1968
01:52:20,680 --> 01:52:24,519
Speaker 6: We're also applying for you know, grants from foundations and

1969
01:52:24,600 --> 01:52:26,000
Speaker 6: this sort of thing too. But of course there are

1970
01:52:26,040 --> 01:52:30,200
Speaker 6: other expenses associated with uh, you know, processing materials and

1971
01:52:30,400 --> 01:52:31,720
Speaker 6: yeah and all that.

1972
01:52:32,000 --> 01:52:35,519
Speaker 7: So yeah, so that is s I P C V

1973
01:52:36,120 --> 01:52:39,680
Speaker 7: I L L E dot com slash donate to make

1974
01:52:39,720 --> 01:52:45,280
Speaker 7: sure that that artist gets paid. Absolutely well, Juliane, thank

1975
01:52:45,320 --> 01:52:48,880
Speaker 7: you so much for joining us today and looking forward

1976
01:52:48,920 --> 01:52:51,240
Speaker 7: to seeing our our new beautiful piece of art, hopefully

1977
01:52:51,280 --> 01:52:52,200
Speaker 7: by twenty twenty seven.

1978
01:52:52,840 --> 01:52:56,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, it's great. Well, thank you for your interest, Mollie,

1979
01:52:56,200 --> 01:52:59,880
Speaker 6: and thank you to all the listeners and supporters out there.

1980
01:53:00,120 --> 01:53:02,880
Speaker 6: Means a lot to us that you know, your interest

1981
01:53:02,960 --> 01:53:05,320
Speaker 6: in us and your support appreciate it.

1982
01:53:05,560 --> 01:53:09,120
Speaker 7: I think we all love those photos of Lee's melting face.

1983
01:53:10,520 --> 01:53:13,920
Speaker 6: It is icon I gotta say, it's iconic, you know.

1984
01:53:14,120 --> 01:53:18,719
Speaker 6: I yeah, we'll always have that, have that memory.

1985
01:53:20,479 --> 01:53:21,200
Speaker 7: Thank you so much.

1986
01:53:21,560 --> 01:53:38,559
Speaker 2: All right, A welcome back to It could Happen Here

1987
01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:42,439
Speaker 2: a podcast where the host Robert Evans, one of the

1988
01:53:42,520 --> 01:53:47,559
Speaker 2: hosts has recently recovered from a terrible, terrible sickness by

1989
01:53:47,800 --> 01:53:52,799
Speaker 2: by engaging in some fascinating experiments with thera flu, largely

1990
01:53:52,960 --> 01:53:55,800
Speaker 2: using a friend's diabetic needles, just shooting it straight into

1991
01:53:55,800 --> 01:53:59,519
Speaker 2: the veins My co host today, Garrison Davis, have you

1992
01:53:59,600 --> 01:54:02,200
Speaker 2: ever ever shot flew medication into your veins?

1993
01:54:02,240 --> 01:54:05,759
Speaker 5: Garrison, No, I've only shot one thing into my veins.

1994
01:54:06,600 --> 01:54:10,800
Speaker 2: Well, speaking of shooting, today's episode of It Could Happen

1995
01:54:10,880 --> 01:54:13,280
Speaker 2: Here is about a shooting. And before you are like,

1996
01:54:13,479 --> 01:54:14,920
Speaker 2: oh man, I don't really have it in me to

1997
01:54:15,000 --> 01:54:17,599
Speaker 2: listen to a horrible story about people dying today, don't worry.

1998
01:54:17,840 --> 01:54:19,840
Speaker 2: Nobody gets shot in this story.

1999
01:54:20,040 --> 01:54:24,840
Speaker 5: Thank God, miraculously no one gets shot, Like against.

2000
01:54:24,640 --> 01:54:28,320
Speaker 2: All odds, it's stunning that nobody got shot. This is

2001
01:54:28,400 --> 01:54:32,760
Speaker 2: the tale of a police officer fucking up, not worse

2002
01:54:33,200 --> 01:54:35,360
Speaker 2: than any cop has ever fucked up, because again he

2003
01:54:35,440 --> 01:54:37,720
Speaker 2: didn't kill anybody, but fucking up in a way that's

2004
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:40,800
Speaker 2: like more baffling and incompetent than I think I've ever

2005
01:54:40,880 --> 01:54:44,600
Speaker 2: seen before. It's probably the most embarrassing and certainly the

2006
01:54:44,640 --> 01:54:49,800
Speaker 2: most embarrassing, and not even really malevolent, just like outrageously incompetent,

2007
01:54:49,960 --> 01:54:52,320
Speaker 2: but I'm gonna let you take over from here, Garrison.

2008
01:54:53,040 --> 01:54:54,680
Speaker 5: So, yeah, we are going to be talking about in

2009
01:54:54,840 --> 01:55:01,280
Speaker 5: acorn involved shooting today, happened, that happened in Florida.

2010
01:55:01,600 --> 01:55:04,960
Speaker 2: Finally we know what the A and A cab stands for.

2011
01:55:05,400 --> 01:55:05,880
Speaker 2: That's right.

2012
01:55:08,880 --> 01:55:11,400
Speaker 5: So we're gonna we're gonna play some clips here, but

2013
01:55:11,440 --> 01:55:12,880
Speaker 5: I think it's important to set the scene so you

2014
01:55:12,960 --> 01:55:16,960
Speaker 5: kind of understand what you're hearing. So this cop walks

2015
01:55:17,040 --> 01:55:19,800
Speaker 5: up to his patrol car, there is a suspect locked

2016
01:55:19,800 --> 01:55:20,280
Speaker 5: in the back.

2017
01:55:20,960 --> 01:55:24,280
Speaker 2: Sunny day, Houston suburbs, big houses, wide streets.

2018
01:55:24,480 --> 01:55:27,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, now something happens as the cop is about to

2019
01:55:27,440 --> 01:55:30,840
Speaker 5: open up the door. He then dives onto the ground,

2020
01:55:31,000 --> 01:55:35,440
Speaker 5: does two like action roles, double barrel rolls, and then

2021
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:39,120
Speaker 5: starts shooting at the car and starts yelling to another

2022
01:55:39,160 --> 01:55:41,400
Speaker 5: officer who's in the area. And I think we'll just

2023
01:55:41,840 --> 01:55:43,040
Speaker 5: we'll just play the rest here.

2024
01:55:43,600 --> 01:55:43,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2025
01:55:44,040 --> 01:55:46,200
Speaker 5: The first clips about thirty seconds long, and then I

2026
01:55:46,320 --> 01:55:48,000
Speaker 5: just have a few shorter clips kind of that have

2027
01:55:48,120 --> 01:55:51,000
Speaker 5: kind of stitched together that just just to get a

2028
01:55:51,080 --> 01:55:54,200
Speaker 5: sense of like what he's saying and what he's communicating

2029
01:55:54,840 --> 01:55:56,960
Speaker 5: after he opens fire on this patrol vehicle.

2030
01:55:57,200 --> 01:56:04,240
Speaker 2: So here is here? Is that audio far Jeff Jukes,

2031
01:56:04,320 --> 01:56:07,320
Speaker 2: Burt Chuck's burd.

2032
01:56:08,920 --> 01:56:09,200
Speaker 5: You know.

2033
01:56:15,440 --> 01:56:17,000
Speaker 8: Oh, I'm that, I'm here.

2034
01:56:21,520 --> 01:56:25,320
Speaker 2: What I've done? He has the car?

2035
01:56:25,800 --> 01:56:27,360
Speaker 5: Now you shot the car.

2036
01:56:28,280 --> 01:56:32,680
Speaker 9: Oh, I'm I'm good. I'm feel weird, but I'm good.

2037
01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:45,400
Speaker 9: I might have hit my best. Okay, it might hit

2038
01:56:45,480 --> 01:56:45,760
Speaker 9: my best.

2039
01:56:45,840 --> 01:56:46,160
Speaker 1: I don't know.

2040
01:56:50,120 --> 01:56:50,440
Speaker 5: I'm not.

2041
01:56:52,040 --> 01:56:53,240
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't know.

2042
01:56:53,720 --> 01:56:54,640
Speaker 5: I I like it.

2043
01:56:57,680 --> 01:57:08,640
Speaker 8: Jess me, I got you remote to me, Jesse, come back, mark.

2044
01:57:08,480 --> 01:57:10,760
Speaker 3: You right back, dude, my head.

2045
01:57:16,440 --> 01:57:18,000
Speaker 1: Let's get further back, further back to the back.

2046
01:57:18,600 --> 01:57:18,960
Speaker 2: All right.

2047
01:57:19,120 --> 01:57:22,000
Speaker 5: So that was a lot of gunfire. Again, it is

2048
01:57:22,720 --> 01:57:27,000
Speaker 5: shocking that no one died because it's not immediately evident

2049
01:57:27,240 --> 01:57:29,160
Speaker 5: if you just watched the video. But there is somebody

2050
01:57:29,160 --> 01:57:31,480
Speaker 5: who's trapped in the back of that car, and there's

2051
01:57:31,840 --> 01:57:33,960
Speaker 5: multiple officers shooting at the car.

2052
01:57:34,480 --> 01:57:36,720
Speaker 2: And here's the thing, the guy. The distance the guy

2053
01:57:36,840 --> 01:57:39,280
Speaker 2: is shooting from. God from when I watched the video

2054
01:57:39,360 --> 01:57:42,240
Speaker 2: last I would estimate maybe about twenty yards, probably even

2055
01:57:42,280 --> 01:57:45,120
Speaker 2: shorter than that, maybe sure, maybe more like fifteen. It's

2056
01:57:45,400 --> 01:57:48,760
Speaker 2: medium to maybe medium long range for a handgun. For

2057
01:57:48,800 --> 01:57:50,360
Speaker 2: a full size handgun like that, I'd say it's about

2058
01:57:50,360 --> 01:57:54,240
Speaker 2: medium range. So a competent shooter should be able to

2059
01:57:54,400 --> 01:57:57,520
Speaker 2: hit a target about the size of a human torso

2060
01:57:57,960 --> 01:58:01,200
Speaker 2: at that distance with most of the but he is

2061
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:03,600
Speaker 2: not that. When I say competent, that is somebody who

2062
01:58:03,720 --> 01:58:06,840
Speaker 2: is bracing themselves and who has two hands on the gun.

2063
01:58:07,400 --> 01:58:09,840
Speaker 2: He is shooting like a character in an action movie.

2064
01:58:09,880 --> 01:58:12,560
Speaker 2: And I cannot imagine. So a lot of those rounds

2065
01:58:12,640 --> 01:58:14,480
Speaker 2: did not even hit the truck. I imagine they went

2066
01:58:14,560 --> 01:58:18,080
Speaker 2: flying into a neighborhood where we can hear children playing yes, Yes.

2067
01:58:18,680 --> 01:58:19,680
Speaker 3: So the.

2068
01:58:21,640 --> 01:58:24,200
Speaker 5: Officer who encountered this acorn, which we will get to

2069
01:58:24,280 --> 01:58:27,760
Speaker 5: in a sec was named Deputy Jesse Hernandez. He been

2070
01:58:27,800 --> 01:58:32,440
Speaker 5: a cop for almost two years, and we'll learn more

2071
01:58:32,480 --> 01:58:36,040
Speaker 5: about his background as we as we continue on with

2072
01:58:36,120 --> 01:58:39,640
Speaker 5: this little story. The second officer, well not officer, but

2073
01:58:40,000 --> 01:58:43,920
Speaker 5: a sergeant of this Sheriff's department named Beth Roberts, and

2074
01:58:44,120 --> 01:58:45,840
Speaker 5: she's been a cop since two thousand and eight, so

2075
01:58:46,080 --> 01:58:48,160
Speaker 5: she has a little bit more experience under her belt.

2076
01:58:48,400 --> 01:58:51,960
Speaker 5: So let's kind of explain what happened here. So there

2077
01:58:52,040 --> 01:58:54,600
Speaker 5: was a series of calls that happened earlier in the

2078
01:58:54,680 --> 01:58:57,080
Speaker 5: day about a vehicle who was kind of driving erratically

2079
01:58:57,440 --> 01:59:00,360
Speaker 5: around a nearby neighborhood honking its horn kind of just

2080
01:59:00,520 --> 01:59:02,480
Speaker 5: like making a lot of sounds at like three am.

2081
01:59:03,040 --> 01:59:04,840
Speaker 5: The suspect was described as a black mail in his

2082
01:59:04,920 --> 01:59:07,880
Speaker 5: late twenties. And then a few hours later, a separate

2083
01:59:07,960 --> 01:59:11,320
Speaker 5: call was made by someone talking about how her boyfriend

2084
01:59:11,720 --> 01:59:14,520
Speaker 5: has been refusing to return her vehicle and has been

2085
01:59:14,560 --> 01:59:18,040
Speaker 5: sending her threatening text messages. So this caused police to

2086
01:59:18,640 --> 01:59:22,080
Speaker 5: go to this girlfriend's house. She showed some of these

2087
01:59:22,120 --> 01:59:26,280
Speaker 5: threatening text messages and they were talking with this woman

2088
01:59:26,640 --> 01:59:30,960
Speaker 5: when her boyfriend approached the scene. So the suspect approached

2089
01:59:31,000 --> 01:59:33,840
Speaker 5: the police in front of his girlfriend's house. Deputy Hernandez

2090
01:59:33,960 --> 01:59:36,840
Speaker 5: himself did a pat down to search for weapons and

2091
01:59:37,040 --> 01:59:40,360
Speaker 5: observed a more thorough search once the suspect was handcuffed.

2092
01:59:40,720 --> 01:59:42,800
Speaker 5: The missing car was located a few miles away, and

2093
01:59:42,880 --> 01:59:44,560
Speaker 5: Hernandez was on his way back to the car to

2094
01:59:44,640 --> 01:59:47,640
Speaker 5: do a tertiary search of the suspect, who is currently

2095
01:59:47,680 --> 01:59:50,800
Speaker 5: locked in the backseat with handcuffs. And then as Deputy

2096
01:59:50,840 --> 01:59:55,000
Speaker 5: Hernandez passed the passenger side door in acorn fell onto

2097
01:59:55,080 --> 01:59:58,320
Speaker 5: the roof of his car, which is barely barely audible

2098
01:59:59,080 --> 02:00:02,200
Speaker 5: in it. The bodycam video that we have access to.

2099
02:00:02,720 --> 02:00:05,400
Speaker 2: So you would not notice it were you not listening

2100
02:00:05,480 --> 02:00:05,720
Speaker 2: for it.

2101
02:00:06,000 --> 02:00:07,440
Speaker 7: No, no, So.

2102
02:00:07,640 --> 02:00:11,480
Speaker 5: Three days later, Deputy Hernandez was interviewed by two investigators

2103
02:00:11,840 --> 02:00:14,320
Speaker 5: as a part of the Office of Professional Standards investigation

2104
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:20,280
Speaker 5: into this incident of discharge gunfire and this this interview

2105
02:00:20,320 --> 02:00:22,800
Speaker 5: in this report is probably one of the most telling

2106
02:00:22,960 --> 02:00:26,240
Speaker 5: things about how police psychology operates.

2107
02:00:26,880 --> 02:00:27,960
Speaker 2: And wow, okay, so.

2108
02:00:30,880 --> 02:00:34,800
Speaker 5: I'm gonna read through a few quotes here from Deputy Hernandez.

2109
02:00:35,200 --> 02:00:37,200
Speaker 5: He talks about how, quote, I'm about to reach for

2110
02:00:37,240 --> 02:00:40,360
Speaker 5: the door handle and simultaneously I hear to at the

2111
02:00:40,440 --> 02:00:43,400
Speaker 5: time what I believe would be a suppressed weapon off

2112
02:00:43,440 --> 02:00:46,680
Speaker 5: to the side. I definitely heard this noise about the

2113
02:00:46,800 --> 02:00:49,320
Speaker 5: same time I felt an impact on my right side,

2114
02:00:49,400 --> 02:00:52,480
Speaker 5: like an upper torso area. I feel the impact. My

2115
02:00:52,600 --> 02:00:54,680
Speaker 5: legs just give out. I don't know where I'm hit.

2116
02:00:54,960 --> 02:01:00,120
Speaker 2: I think I'm hit. I'm struck. I roll back. I

2117
02:01:00,240 --> 02:01:03,160
Speaker 2: rolled to the briving like he's the hard boiled detective

2118
02:01:03,240 --> 02:01:03,800
Speaker 2: and a novel.

2119
02:01:04,600 --> 02:01:06,040
Speaker 5: I rolled to the back of the car. Now I'm

2120
02:01:06,040 --> 02:01:08,360
Speaker 5: stuck in the street, and I knew where the fire,

2121
02:01:08,840 --> 02:01:11,920
Speaker 5: where the shots came from, I or I believed where

2122
02:01:11,920 --> 02:01:14,200
Speaker 5: they came from. It was right there as I'm reaching

2123
02:01:14,240 --> 02:01:16,640
Speaker 5: for that door handle. So I'm laying behind the car.

2124
02:01:16,720 --> 02:01:19,360
Speaker 5: I'm yelling shots fire, shots fired, shots fired. I returned

2125
02:01:19,400 --> 02:01:21,400
Speaker 5: fire once I could get cover behind another vehicle that

2126
02:01:21,480 --> 02:01:24,840
Speaker 5: was parked in the driveway there. So when asked to

2127
02:01:24,960 --> 02:01:28,440
Speaker 5: describe what he felt, because he's not just claiming that

2128
02:01:28,640 --> 02:01:31,360
Speaker 5: he heard a sound, he's claiming he felt like he

2129
02:01:31,440 --> 02:01:31,840
Speaker 5: got hit.

2130
02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:34,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, he felt an impact. He felt an impact and

2131
02:01:34,560 --> 02:01:37,000
Speaker 2: his legs went out from underneath him. Yes, which again

2132
02:01:37,240 --> 02:01:40,080
Speaker 2: in the video, he clearly does a double barrel roll.

2133
02:01:40,280 --> 02:01:43,720
Speaker 2: He doesn't. That is not I have seen people get

2134
02:01:43,840 --> 02:01:48,200
Speaker 2: hit and drop. They did not do double barrel rolls

2135
02:01:49,280 --> 02:01:50,360
Speaker 2: like a little action stow.

2136
02:01:50,440 --> 02:01:53,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, yea, yeah, yeah, he says, quote, it felt like

2137
02:01:53,600 --> 02:01:56,480
Speaker 5: an impact to my upper torso around here, and he

2138
02:01:56,560 --> 02:01:58,920
Speaker 5: motions up to his right shoulder on the right side.

2139
02:01:59,160 --> 02:02:02,600
Speaker 5: It was like a sound impact, like almost that quick.

2140
02:02:02,680 --> 02:02:05,360
Speaker 5: I guess I just loved hit the phrase it was

2141
02:02:05,520 --> 02:02:07,040
Speaker 5: like a sound impact.

2142
02:02:07,360 --> 02:02:09,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think he's saying. I think what he's saying

2143
02:02:10,000 --> 02:02:12,960
Speaker 2: from reading it is that like we're missing some of

2144
02:02:13,040 --> 02:02:14,640
Speaker 2: the body language that he was going to It was

2145
02:02:14,720 --> 02:02:17,040
Speaker 2: like sound and then like moving his hands to get

2146
02:02:17,120 --> 02:02:20,040
Speaker 2: sound impact, hearing the sound, and then he got impact.

2147
02:02:20,280 --> 02:02:22,120
Speaker 2: I think he was actually trying to which is not

2148
02:02:22,240 --> 02:02:25,440
Speaker 2: like them, which is actually not in person. Probably very awkward,

2149
02:02:25,520 --> 02:02:28,440
Speaker 2: but yeah, it does. It comes across weird and so

2150
02:02:29,800 --> 02:02:32,640
Speaker 2: more more funny than sound impact. For again, any corn

2151
02:02:32,720 --> 02:02:35,960
Speaker 2: that's falling on a roof, we have quote, my legs

2152
02:02:36,040 --> 02:02:38,640
Speaker 2: weren't working the way I wanted them to be working.

2153
02:02:39,480 --> 02:02:41,640
Speaker 2: I think I yelled at one point to Sergeant Roberts.

2154
02:02:41,840 --> 02:02:43,120
Speaker 2: I think I might have been hitting.

2155
02:02:42,920 --> 02:02:45,560
Speaker 5: The leg or something along those lines, because I was

2156
02:02:45,560 --> 02:02:47,560
Speaker 5: struggling to get cover. I think at one point I

2157
02:02:47,640 --> 02:02:51,680
Speaker 5: reached up to touch my head. I think I still

2158
02:02:51,760 --> 02:02:54,160
Speaker 5: had the sound in my head. I wasn't sure if

2159
02:02:54,200 --> 02:02:56,960
Speaker 5: I had been hidden the head. I was getting a

2160
02:02:57,080 --> 02:03:01,680
Speaker 5: funny tingling around all sides of my body, and I

2161
02:03:01,760 --> 02:03:04,240
Speaker 5: think some of that money just been adrenaline. Putting together

2162
02:03:04,320 --> 02:03:06,720
Speaker 5: the fact that what I just heard and the impact

2163
02:03:06,760 --> 02:03:08,960
Speaker 5: that I felt. I've never been shot before, so I

2164
02:03:09,000 --> 02:03:15,880
Speaker 5: don't know what that's like or you know, unquote great

2165
02:03:17,920 --> 02:03:21,560
Speaker 5: oh man, So he is. He's unsure if you would

2166
02:03:21,560 --> 02:03:22,880
Speaker 5: be able to notice if he got shot in the

2167
02:03:22,920 --> 02:03:26,280
Speaker 5: head or not, which is kind of interesting. I mean,

2168
02:03:26,520 --> 02:03:29,120
Speaker 5: I'm sure he could get grazed, but like, come on, buddy, yeah.

2169
02:03:29,480 --> 02:03:31,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's one thing. It is true that

2170
02:03:31,480 --> 02:03:35,080
Speaker 2: like you can be hit like an armor and not

2171
02:03:35,200 --> 02:03:37,560
Speaker 2: be sure if you've gotten a hit because it didn't penetrate.

2172
02:03:38,160 --> 02:03:42,640
Speaker 2: But you would also not mistake a corn shrapnel hitting

2173
02:03:42,680 --> 02:03:45,960
Speaker 2: you reasonably for a bullet Like That's simply not a

2174
02:03:46,040 --> 02:03:48,280
Speaker 2: mistake a reasonable person is going to make.

2175
02:03:49,440 --> 02:03:54,240
Speaker 5: So the investigator asked him, like if there was any

2176
02:03:54,320 --> 02:03:57,840
Speaker 5: other sense that there could have been gunfire, like if

2177
02:03:57,880 --> 02:03:59,760
Speaker 5: you saw any like shattered glass coming from the car,

2178
02:04:00,320 --> 02:04:03,200
Speaker 5: and Hernandez said no. When asked why he decided to

2179
02:04:03,200 --> 02:04:05,960
Speaker 5: stop firing, Hernandez said that he stopped firing once he

2180
02:04:05,960 --> 02:04:08,880
Speaker 5: emptied his clip, moved to cover behind it nearby Tesla

2181
02:04:09,320 --> 02:04:12,680
Speaker 5: end quote, didn't observe any rounds coming back at me.

2182
02:04:13,520 --> 02:04:16,040
Speaker 2: Just just great, because why there's the.

2183
02:04:18,560 --> 02:04:20,320
Speaker 5: Hernandez claim that he was never able to see the

2184
02:04:20,360 --> 02:04:21,920
Speaker 5: suspect while in the patrol car.

2185
02:04:22,400 --> 02:04:24,480
Speaker 2: And Hernandez remained behind.

2186
02:04:24,280 --> 02:04:27,000
Speaker 5: Cover till other deputies arrived and was rushed to a hospital,

2187
02:04:27,320 --> 02:04:30,000
Speaker 5: where only then he was informed that he did not,

2188
02:04:30,200 --> 02:04:31,240
Speaker 5: in fact to get shot.

2189
02:04:31,640 --> 02:04:33,839
Speaker 2: It's amazing he made it all the way to a hospital.

2190
02:04:34,720 --> 02:04:38,000
Speaker 2: So you had a lot of chances. You had a

2191
02:04:38,040 --> 02:04:39,880
Speaker 2: lot of chances to not fuck that up.

2192
02:04:39,960 --> 02:04:40,120
Speaker 3: Man.

2193
02:04:40,600 --> 02:04:42,280
Speaker 5: As soon as the other cops arrive on the seat,

2194
02:04:42,320 --> 02:04:44,640
Speaker 5: he's like, I don't know, I just I just feel

2195
02:04:44,720 --> 02:04:45,320
Speaker 5: so weird.

2196
02:04:47,360 --> 02:04:50,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, buddy, you you had an adrenaline drop because you panicked,

2197
02:04:51,200 --> 02:04:52,680
Speaker 2: Like that is why you feel weird.

2198
02:04:53,000 --> 02:04:58,000
Speaker 5: Like a lot always this like mirrors the police fentanel things,

2199
02:04:58,360 --> 02:05:02,040
Speaker 5: how they can like talk the themselves into feeling into

2200
02:05:02,120 --> 02:05:03,080
Speaker 5: like feeling symptoms.

2201
02:05:03,360 --> 02:05:06,560
Speaker 2: Yes, but all right, So.

2202
02:05:08,040 --> 02:05:10,600
Speaker 5: Hernandoz hadn't been a cop for very long. He had

2203
02:05:10,680 --> 02:05:13,120
Speaker 5: He had no prior law enforcement experience before joining this

2204
02:05:13,440 --> 02:05:16,960
Speaker 5: Florida Sheriff's department, but he did attend to West Point

2205
02:05:17,320 --> 02:05:20,480
Speaker 5: and served as a Special Forces Infantry officers in the

2206
02:05:20,640 --> 02:05:24,760
Speaker 5: Army for ten years. So one could maybe assume that

2207
02:05:24,920 --> 02:05:28,240
Speaker 5: the deputy's outrageous behavior was the result of some kind

2208
02:05:28,280 --> 02:05:29,600
Speaker 5: of PTSD.

2209
02:05:29,240 --> 02:05:32,360
Speaker 2: From serving as Special Forces. But maybe maybe I could

2210
02:05:32,400 --> 02:05:34,480
Speaker 2: kind of explain some of what's going on here. I

2211
02:05:34,640 --> 02:05:37,920
Speaker 2: had multiple people when I posted this on Twitter, be like, oh,

2212
02:05:38,000 --> 02:05:40,840
Speaker 2: this is maybe people with like PTSD shouldn't be.

2213
02:05:40,880 --> 02:05:43,960
Speaker 5: Cops, And I had to be like no, no, no, Well,

2214
02:05:44,520 --> 02:05:47,240
Speaker 5: see the funny thing about that is that he never

2215
02:05:47,360 --> 02:05:48,839
Speaker 5: actually served in combat.

2216
02:05:49,240 --> 02:05:52,400
Speaker 2: No, this guy flew a fucking desk, yeah, which like

2217
02:05:52,640 --> 02:05:54,680
Speaker 2: you need that in a war. But like this, this

2218
02:05:54,920 --> 02:05:57,840
Speaker 2: man did not have any combat trauma that caused him

2219
02:05:57,880 --> 02:05:58,800
Speaker 2: to react this way.

2220
02:05:59,240 --> 02:06:03,320
Speaker 5: You know, like I I've had I've had PTSD. You know,

2221
02:06:03,440 --> 02:06:06,360
Speaker 5: I've certainly gotten like I can get really jumpy with

2222
02:06:06,720 --> 02:06:07,520
Speaker 5: certain sounds.

2223
02:06:08,120 --> 02:06:11,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is not that six months Carriod where fireworks

2224
02:06:11,240 --> 02:06:12,440
Speaker 2: made us all very unhappy.

2225
02:06:12,560 --> 02:06:15,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, or like keys dropping was the big one for

2226
02:06:15,920 --> 02:06:18,360
Speaker 5: me because it sounded like a tear guest canister rolling

2227
02:06:18,400 --> 02:06:19,400
Speaker 5: on his bottles.

2228
02:06:19,600 --> 02:06:21,520
Speaker 2: But you know when in the many times that I

2229
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:23,640
Speaker 2: had bottles fall near me and set me off, or

2230
02:06:23,680 --> 02:06:25,880
Speaker 2: that fireworks went off near me and set me off,

2231
02:06:26,480 --> 02:06:28,600
Speaker 2: I was often carrying a gun and what I never

2232
02:06:28,760 --> 02:06:32,080
Speaker 2: did was empty it vaguely in the direction of a car.

2233
02:06:33,840 --> 02:06:35,360
Speaker 2: So he never saw combat.

2234
02:06:35,520 --> 02:06:38,879
Speaker 5: He did claim that he was aware of what suppressed

2235
02:06:38,920 --> 02:06:41,400
Speaker 5: gunfire sounded like, and he affirmed that the noise he

2236
02:06:41,480 --> 02:06:44,160
Speaker 5: herd reminded him of suppressed gunfire.

2237
02:06:45,920 --> 02:06:48,040
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, bro, what the fuck?

2238
02:06:48,880 --> 02:06:51,040
Speaker 5: Under questioning Herd, Eda said that he did not perceive

2239
02:06:51,120 --> 02:06:54,640
Speaker 5: any other sounds, visuals, or physical indicators. Of gunfire besides

2240
02:06:54,680 --> 02:06:58,480
Speaker 5: the initial tapping sound and his upper torso feeling. In

2241
02:06:58,600 --> 02:07:00,680
Speaker 5: the interview, he was asked why he decided to fall

2242
02:07:00,720 --> 02:07:02,880
Speaker 5: onto the pavement, and he said, I'm not sure if

2243
02:07:02,880 --> 02:07:06,160
Speaker 5: it was adrenaline or just what, but the numbness of

2244
02:07:06,200 --> 02:07:07,960
Speaker 5: my legs and realizing, Okay, I'm going to be on

2245
02:07:08,000 --> 02:07:10,520
Speaker 5: the ground, but also realizing the windows are right there,

2246
02:07:10,560 --> 02:07:13,000
Speaker 5: you know, I'm I need to be on the ground anyway,

2247
02:07:13,040 --> 02:07:15,680
Speaker 5: so I'm not exposed. So yeah, and that that just

2248
02:07:15,760 --> 02:07:17,760
Speaker 5: kind of led to my legs just kind of gave

2249
02:07:17,840 --> 02:07:22,040
Speaker 5: out on me. Fascinating. He then was asked to explain

2250
02:07:22,160 --> 02:07:25,480
Speaker 5: the two action roles he performed on the road, and

2251
02:07:25,880 --> 02:07:27,040
Speaker 5: her dad replied.

2252
02:07:27,080 --> 02:07:31,320
Speaker 2: Uh rnx. At the same time, what was I supposed

2253
02:07:31,320 --> 02:07:32,640
Speaker 2: to do? Pretty much?

2254
02:07:32,720 --> 02:07:37,760
Speaker 5: He said, uh the rolling kind of reaction to what

2255
02:07:38,040 --> 02:07:41,600
Speaker 5: was going on and realizing like, my legs are not

2256
02:07:41,800 --> 02:07:44,040
Speaker 5: working the way I need them to work right now,

2257
02:07:44,560 --> 02:07:47,360
Speaker 5: but I can roll over to the next vehicle. So

2258
02:07:47,760 --> 02:07:49,520
Speaker 5: that's kind of where I was trying to get to

2259
02:07:49,920 --> 02:07:55,880
Speaker 5: unquote sure, okay, okay, bro. So after his little action roles,

2260
02:07:55,960 --> 02:07:58,320
Speaker 5: this is where he started yelling shots fired and he

2261
02:07:58,360 --> 02:08:00,600
Speaker 5: emptied his clip into the car. And told the sergeant

2262
02:08:00,640 --> 02:08:03,160
Speaker 5: that shots were coming from this vehicle, and she began

2263
02:08:03,240 --> 02:08:05,640
Speaker 5: firing in the vehicle as well. At what point Hernandez

2264
02:08:05,640 --> 02:08:07,320
Speaker 5: tried to move off to the side because he was

2265
02:08:07,400 --> 02:08:10,480
Speaker 5: concerned about being shot by the other cop. He says,

2266
02:08:11,040 --> 02:08:13,040
Speaker 5: when I was done engaging the vehicle, I was trying

2267
02:08:13,080 --> 02:08:14,920
Speaker 5: to get off to the side over there because I

2268
02:08:15,000 --> 02:08:18,600
Speaker 5: was worried about possibly having possibly me being in her

2269
02:08:18,680 --> 02:08:19,280
Speaker 5: line of fire.

2270
02:08:19,400 --> 02:08:23,240
Speaker 2: Now sure, this is this is the first reasonable threat

2271
02:08:23,360 --> 02:08:26,000
Speaker 2: that he has expressed. I would also be concerned about

2272
02:08:26,640 --> 02:08:28,200
Speaker 2: them shooting me in that instance.

2273
02:08:28,320 --> 02:08:32,720
Speaker 5: Yes, So, after Hernandez's initial explanation of events, the investigator

2274
02:08:32,760 --> 02:08:36,200
Speaker 5: showed him video stills of an acorn coming into frame

2275
02:08:36,520 --> 02:08:40,720
Speaker 5: and bouncing off the roof of his car. I'm just

2276
02:08:40,800 --> 02:08:43,240
Speaker 5: going to read directly from the from the report, quote,

2277
02:08:43,720 --> 02:08:51,520
Speaker 5: Deputy Hernandez asked acorn. Investigator Hogan answered acorn, I'm quote amazing, amazing,

2278
02:08:52,880 --> 02:08:54,080
Speaker 5: an amazing sentence.

2279
02:08:56,480 --> 02:08:56,840
Speaker 3: This is.

2280
02:08:58,560 --> 02:09:00,920
Speaker 2: This is so perfectly how you would like script it

2281
02:09:01,040 --> 02:09:04,320
Speaker 2: in a really good police procedural comedy, Like if you

2282
02:09:04,440 --> 02:09:07,680
Speaker 2: had some A game writers on the team, and it's

2283
02:09:07,920 --> 02:09:10,280
Speaker 2: it's gonna take some really good you'd need like the

2284
02:09:10,400 --> 02:09:13,720
Speaker 2: wire quality actors to pull those lines off. Bunk and

2285
02:09:14,200 --> 02:09:15,800
Speaker 2: Bunk could have pulled them off right, Like.

2286
02:09:16,360 --> 02:09:18,160
Speaker 5: There's two more lines I want I want to get

2287
02:09:18,200 --> 02:09:20,040
Speaker 5: to before before we take an out of break here.

2288
02:09:20,600 --> 02:09:22,520
Speaker 5: When asked if the sound he heard could have been

2289
02:09:22,520 --> 02:09:26,080
Speaker 5: an acorn instead of suppressed gunfire, the deputy answered, quote,

2290
02:09:26,640 --> 02:09:29,320
Speaker 5: I'm not gonna say no, because I mean, that's but

2291
02:09:29,520 --> 02:09:33,400
Speaker 5: what ten second pause and speaking. What I heard three

2292
02:09:33,520 --> 02:09:37,240
Speaker 5: second pause and speaking sounded almost like twelve second pause

2293
02:09:37,280 --> 02:09:39,600
Speaker 5: and speaking in credit. But I heard sounded what I

2294
02:09:39,720 --> 02:09:42,760
Speaker 5: think would be louder than an acorn hitting the roof

2295
02:09:42,800 --> 02:09:45,200
Speaker 5: of the car. But there's obviously an acorn hitting the

2296
02:09:45,280 --> 02:09:45,640
Speaker 5: roof of a.

2297
02:09:45,640 --> 02:09:50,680
Speaker 2: Car unquote amazing. Uh.

2298
02:09:50,920 --> 02:09:53,000
Speaker 5: The investigator then had to ask her, ed, does if

2299
02:09:53,040 --> 02:09:56,520
Speaker 5: he was in general familiar with the sound of acorns,

2300
02:09:57,720 --> 02:09:59,960
Speaker 5: which must be so embarrassed?

2301
02:10:00,480 --> 02:10:03,680
Speaker 2: That is that is that is a low point in

2302
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:08,280
Speaker 2: your career, that is Hernetta said that he was.

2303
02:10:08,840 --> 02:10:10,560
Speaker 5: He was then asked if the sound could have been

2304
02:10:10,600 --> 02:10:13,400
Speaker 5: what led him to believe the car theft suspect shot him,

2305
02:10:13,600 --> 02:10:18,160
Speaker 5: to which the deputy answered, it could be seven second

2306
02:10:18,200 --> 02:10:21,040
Speaker 5: pause and speaking, but I don't think so, but it.

2307
02:10:21,120 --> 02:10:22,440
Speaker 2: Could be uncorked.

2308
02:10:22,960 --> 02:10:27,520
Speaker 5: Great so then Hernandez's lawyer said that they could maybe

2309
02:10:28,000 --> 02:10:30,640
Speaker 5: watch the video again and see if see if the

2310
02:10:30,720 --> 02:10:34,280
Speaker 5: acorn striking matches the time that he says that he

2311
02:10:34,400 --> 02:10:37,360
Speaker 5: heard the sound, And then they deliberated for a little bit,

2312
02:10:37,800 --> 02:10:40,880
Speaker 5: and ultimately Hernandez refused to watch the video a s

2313
02:10:40,960 --> 02:10:43,680
Speaker 5: second time once he was told it was an acorn's

2314
02:10:45,000 --> 02:10:47,480
Speaker 5: I mean, yeah, come on, what's there to do?

2315
02:10:48,040 --> 02:10:51,280
Speaker 2: Understandable? No, that's that's that's going to really do some

2316
02:10:51,400 --> 02:10:53,040
Speaker 2: damage to your self esteem right there.

2317
02:10:53,680 --> 02:10:56,120
Speaker 5: Less than a month later, just a few days before

2318
02:10:56,240 --> 02:10:59,200
Speaker 5: a second interview was scheduled, he quit the job.

2319
02:11:01,160 --> 02:11:03,480
Speaker 2: So you know what first decision he's made them, I

2320
02:11:03,560 --> 02:11:06,160
Speaker 2: mean yeah, like, what what else can you do? At

2321
02:11:06,200 --> 02:11:09,160
Speaker 2: this point? This story starts with a bad cop, but

2322
02:11:09,280 --> 02:11:10,240
Speaker 2: it ends with a good one.

2323
02:11:10,560 --> 02:11:13,560
Speaker 5: Like imagine returning to work and everyone's gonna call you

2324
02:11:13,680 --> 02:11:16,760
Speaker 5: like the acorn guy, like you can't, you can't.

2325
02:11:17,000 --> 02:11:19,400
Speaker 2: It's just an anytime there's like a there's like a

2326
02:11:19,440 --> 02:11:23,240
Speaker 2: fucking acorn tree anywhere near you get like you okay, man, okay,

2327
02:11:23,280 --> 02:11:23,960
Speaker 2: do you need to take him?

2328
02:11:24,320 --> 02:11:25,280
Speaker 3: Take it?

2329
02:11:26,160 --> 02:11:26,960
Speaker 5: Did you call this hit.

2330
02:11:29,840 --> 02:11:30,000
Speaker 3: There?

2331
02:11:30,200 --> 02:11:32,920
Speaker 2: Watch Out? Watch Out one hundred, one hundred times a

2332
02:11:33,000 --> 02:11:35,120
Speaker 2: day guys would be getting on his radio being like

2333
02:11:35,200 --> 02:11:38,040
Speaker 2: I just saw an acorn. Dispatch.

2334
02:11:38,120 --> 02:11:42,120
Speaker 5: You can get on a possible acorn, uh negative negative,

2335
02:11:42,200 --> 02:11:43,040
Speaker 5: that is a pine cone.

2336
02:11:43,920 --> 02:11:46,920
Speaker 2: No need for assistance, just some gunfire. We're good, We're good,

2337
02:11:47,040 --> 02:11:50,600
Speaker 2: not an acorn repete. We're safe. See is safe? No

2338
02:11:50,720 --> 02:11:51,480
Speaker 2: acords insight.

2339
02:11:53,720 --> 02:11:57,040
Speaker 5: All right, let's let's take an out of break and

2340
02:11:57,440 --> 02:12:01,680
Speaker 5: we will return to hear about Sergeant Robber recollection of events.

2341
02:12:13,080 --> 02:12:17,240
Speaker 5: Welcome back to Acorn Cop streaming now on the Discovery Channel.

2342
02:12:17,760 --> 02:12:22,200
Speaker 5: Two cops, one acorn. No survive, Actually no, thankfully everyone survived.

2343
02:12:22,680 --> 02:12:25,000
Speaker 5: This would be much less funny.

2344
02:12:25,080 --> 02:12:27,240
Speaker 2: We would not be laughing about this now. There is

2345
02:12:27,320 --> 02:12:30,160
Speaker 2: some permanent psychological damage done to the guy who was

2346
02:12:30,160 --> 02:12:33,480
Speaker 2: shot at but not shot and that is unjust and sad,

2347
02:12:33,880 --> 02:12:37,360
Speaker 2: yet not enough that we are not willing folks. You

2348
02:12:37,480 --> 02:12:39,760
Speaker 2: have a right to laugh at something like this, you know,

2349
02:12:39,960 --> 02:12:42,160
Speaker 2: even if there are some consequences to it. That's just

2350
02:12:42,280 --> 02:12:43,840
Speaker 2: keeping yourself sane in this world.

2351
02:12:44,320 --> 02:12:47,080
Speaker 5: So, Sergeant Roberts was a member of the shaf's department

2352
02:12:47,120 --> 02:12:50,280
Speaker 5: for fifteen years. She has a bachelor's degree in criminology

2353
02:12:50,400 --> 02:12:51,959
Speaker 5: from the Florida State University.

2354
02:12:52,480 --> 02:12:53,480
Speaker 3: So that's cool.

2355
02:12:53,800 --> 02:12:58,080
Speaker 5: She's been teaching at the Criminal Justice Standards and Training

2356
02:12:58,080 --> 02:13:02,000
Speaker 5: Commission for ten years. So I think one thing that

2357
02:13:02,520 --> 02:13:04,200
Speaker 5: led to some of them thinking it could have been

2358
02:13:04,240 --> 02:13:08,160
Speaker 5: suppressed gunfire is that in the threatening messages that the

2359
02:13:08,240 --> 02:13:12,160
Speaker 5: suspect had shown to or had sent to his girlfriend,

2360
02:13:12,760 --> 02:13:15,360
Speaker 5: included was a close up picture of this dark kind

2361
02:13:15,400 --> 02:13:18,640
Speaker 5: of gray cylinder pressed up against the center of the

2362
02:13:18,760 --> 02:13:21,360
Speaker 5: dash in his car. Less than two inches of the

2363
02:13:21,400 --> 02:13:24,400
Speaker 5: cylinder were visible. No parts of a firearm could be seen.

2364
02:13:24,920 --> 02:13:29,120
Speaker 5: But they believed that this was a suppressor, and the

2365
02:13:29,240 --> 02:13:32,000
Speaker 5: victim said that he owned a suppressor. So I think

2366
02:13:32,080 --> 02:13:35,000
Speaker 5: that that is one thing that happened in the interview

2367
02:13:35,120 --> 02:13:39,040
Speaker 5: kind of or in the like exchange leading up to

2368
02:13:39,240 --> 02:13:42,200
Speaker 5: this incident. But no one got any confirmation that he

2369
02:13:42,280 --> 02:13:44,640
Speaker 5: had a gun on him. Again, he was searched two times.

2370
02:13:44,680 --> 02:13:47,280
Speaker 5: There was no gun found on him. It is possible

2371
02:13:47,320 --> 02:13:50,040
Speaker 5: to like hide a gun on you, It is much

2372
02:13:50,160 --> 02:13:53,680
Speaker 5: more difficult to hide a gun with a suppressor like that.

2373
02:13:53,840 --> 02:13:55,800
Speaker 5: Is that is a pretty a pretty big object.

2374
02:13:55,920 --> 02:13:59,160
Speaker 2: They are larger like it. Basically doubles are more than

2375
02:13:59,200 --> 02:14:01,760
Speaker 2: doubles the link of the firearm, and it also does

2376
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:05,080
Speaker 2: so in such a way that makes it difficult to

2377
02:14:05,320 --> 02:14:07,120
Speaker 2: carry in a concealed fashion.

2378
02:14:08,080 --> 02:14:11,080
Speaker 5: So when Sergeant Roberts was collecting an affidavit about the

2379
02:14:11,120 --> 02:14:14,280
Speaker 5: stolen car, she said that she heard quote some type

2380
02:14:14,320 --> 02:14:20,240
Speaker 5: of noise and shortly thereafter Jesse, who's Hernandez screaming? Shots fired?

2381
02:14:20,440 --> 02:14:20,720
Speaker 2: Quote.

2382
02:14:21,160 --> 02:14:23,320
Speaker 5: It was loud enough that it got my attention and

2383
02:14:23,360 --> 02:14:24,880
Speaker 5: made me think we're about to have a fight with

2384
02:14:25,000 --> 02:14:28,360
Speaker 5: a prisoner or the suspect. Either he's escaped somehow and

2385
02:14:28,640 --> 02:14:30,560
Speaker 5: Jesse's in a tussle with him. I can't tell you

2386
02:14:30,600 --> 02:14:32,720
Speaker 5: exactly what it was, but it made me look and

2387
02:14:32,840 --> 02:14:37,000
Speaker 5: then immediately heard Deputy Hernandez screaming. Shots fired.

2388
02:14:37,600 --> 02:14:40,200
Speaker 2: So Sergeant Roberts ran out into the street. Quote.

2389
02:14:40,480 --> 02:14:42,520
Speaker 5: I saw that Hernandez was down. He had his gun

2390
02:14:42,600 --> 02:14:44,520
Speaker 5: point to the back of his patrol car. I was

2391
02:14:44,600 --> 02:14:46,920
Speaker 5: drawing my pistol and my magazine that was in my

2392
02:14:47,040 --> 02:14:50,400
Speaker 5: meg pouch. Somehow flew out again. Amazing police work.

2393
02:14:50,400 --> 02:14:55,160
Speaker 2: These guys, incredible stuff. That's someone who never practiced.

2394
02:14:55,320 --> 02:14:59,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, at which point I thought there was a malfunk.

2395
02:15:01,560 --> 02:15:03,480
Speaker 5: I thought that I dropped the magazine. Somehow I hit

2396
02:15:03,560 --> 02:15:05,520
Speaker 5: the meg release on my firearm and that that was

2397
02:15:05,560 --> 02:15:07,520
Speaker 5: the magazine that fell out. Turns out it wasn't. It

2398
02:15:07,600 --> 02:15:09,520
Speaker 5: was the one from my meg pouch. Uh huh, at

2399
02:15:09,560 --> 02:15:14,200
Speaker 5: which point I think I fired. So you just have

2400
02:15:14,400 --> 02:15:17,080
Speaker 5: magazines flying you freak out and start pulling your trigger.

2401
02:15:17,200 --> 02:15:21,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I will say that last part extremely common experience.

2402
02:15:21,200 --> 02:15:24,000
Speaker 2: Police officers are not well trained, and most of them

2403
02:15:24,840 --> 02:15:26,960
Speaker 2: in terms of combat stuff, and most of them do

2404
02:15:27,160 --> 02:15:30,920
Speaker 2: not shoot regularly. When the FBI's done studies of like

2405
02:15:31,200 --> 02:15:34,600
Speaker 2: people who kill police officers, and they nearly always train

2406
02:15:35,520 --> 02:15:38,120
Speaker 2: way more often than the police officers they kill trained.

2407
02:15:38,160 --> 02:15:40,640
Speaker 2: It's very Most cops are not putting one hundred and

2408
02:15:40,680 --> 02:15:44,000
Speaker 2: fifty rounds a month downrange, and like, I fire three

2409
02:15:44,080 --> 02:15:47,160
Speaker 2: hundred rounds a month in training, and I'm not particularly good.

2410
02:15:47,480 --> 02:15:50,320
Speaker 2: That's what I consider like minimum level of competence. And

2411
02:15:50,400 --> 02:15:53,240
Speaker 2: so it is extremely common in police shootings for the

2412
02:15:53,280 --> 02:15:55,760
Speaker 2: officer to say I don't know how many I fired,

2413
02:15:55,920 --> 02:15:58,480
Speaker 2: or I fired two shots and they fired seventeen. That

2414
02:15:58,560 --> 02:16:01,320
Speaker 2: happens fun Oftentimes, even more than that, people will reload

2415
02:16:01,400 --> 02:16:04,040
Speaker 2: and not realize that they reloaded and emptied the second

2416
02:16:04,120 --> 02:16:08,200
Speaker 2: magazine because in an actual violent situation, and it is

2417
02:16:08,280 --> 02:16:10,680
Speaker 2: for that lady, I will say that she just knows

2418
02:16:10,760 --> 02:16:13,880
Speaker 2: that her partner is emptying his firearm. Yeah, so for her,

2419
02:16:14,120 --> 02:16:18,320
Speaker 2: she's this is less unreasonable, right, It is more complicated

2420
02:16:18,360 --> 02:16:21,480
Speaker 2: for Sergeant Roberts. But I think it also points to

2421
02:16:21,600 --> 02:16:26,240
Speaker 2: some of the inherent problems with policing. Oh good god.

2422
02:16:26,440 --> 02:16:29,080
Speaker 5: Yes, and the way police are trained, Like the how

2423
02:16:29,200 --> 02:16:31,520
Speaker 5: quickly it was for her to start firing at a

2424
02:16:31,600 --> 02:16:34,200
Speaker 5: suspect who's locked inside of a patrol car, who she

2425
02:16:34,360 --> 02:16:36,120
Speaker 5: knows has been searched multiple times, and.

2426
02:16:36,160 --> 02:16:37,960
Speaker 2: Who she has not seen shooting.

2427
02:16:38,240 --> 02:16:40,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, she she has not seen any gunfire, she's not

2428
02:16:40,879 --> 02:16:43,400
Speaker 5: seen any evidence of that, she's heard one man screaming.

2429
02:16:44,080 --> 02:16:46,800
Speaker 5: And how quickly they decide to use lethal force is

2430
02:16:47,400 --> 02:16:48,400
Speaker 5: I think very notable.

2431
02:16:48,959 --> 02:16:49,240
Speaker 2: Quote.

2432
02:16:49,480 --> 02:16:51,600
Speaker 5: I fired at the vehicle because I saw Deputy Hernandez

2433
02:16:51,680 --> 02:16:53,240
Speaker 5: down on the ground and he tells me that shots

2434
02:16:53,280 --> 02:16:55,400
Speaker 5: are fired and he's hit, and it scared the hell

2435
02:16:55,440 --> 02:16:57,959
Speaker 5: out of me. I thought I was watching him be killed,

2436
02:16:59,160 --> 02:17:01,560
Speaker 5: which is Yeah, it's to like how they are trained

2437
02:17:01,600 --> 02:17:05,680
Speaker 5: to constantly be in fear for their lives, their fellow officers' lives. Quote,

2438
02:17:05,959 --> 02:17:07,720
Speaker 5: it was the patrol car that was where the threat

2439
02:17:07,840 --> 02:17:10,560
Speaker 5: was coming from. I'm thinking we've we missed the gun

2440
02:17:10,600 --> 02:17:12,840
Speaker 5: in the pack down. Somehow he shot Jesse from the

2441
02:17:12,920 --> 02:17:15,640
Speaker 5: car and Jesse's down shots are being fired. I couldn't

2442
02:17:15,640 --> 02:17:17,520
Speaker 5: tell you exactly where they were coming from, but I

2443
02:17:17,640 --> 02:17:19,439
Speaker 5: fired because of my concern.

2444
02:17:19,440 --> 02:17:22,400
Speaker 2: On grit and you get. This is a thing that

2445
02:17:22,680 --> 02:17:24,800
Speaker 2: does not get represented in fiction. People don't like to

2446
02:17:24,840 --> 02:17:27,400
Speaker 2: talk about it. This happens with soldiers too. I have

2447
02:17:27,440 --> 02:17:30,040
Speaker 2: a friend who was shot in the leg by a

2448
02:17:30,160 --> 02:17:32,600
Speaker 2: fifty cow by one of our fifty cows one of

2449
02:17:32,720 --> 02:17:36,600
Speaker 2: his guy's guns, because they were told anyone from this

2450
02:17:36,760 --> 02:17:39,680
Speaker 2: building over that you see on the thermal scope is

2451
02:17:39,720 --> 02:17:42,040
Speaker 2: an enemy. They saw him on the thermal scope and

2452
02:17:42,080 --> 02:17:44,160
Speaker 2: they lit him up. It was just a series of

2453
02:17:44,240 --> 02:17:47,959
Speaker 2: bad calls being made and nobody checking to confirm. Because

2454
02:17:47,959 --> 02:17:51,520
Speaker 2: you're in an actual chaotic, dangerous situation, checking to confirm

2455
02:17:51,640 --> 02:17:55,039
Speaker 2: is there actually a threat in that area? They're just shooting,

2456
02:17:55,120 --> 02:17:57,880
Speaker 2: you know. It's people panic all the time. It's one

2457
02:17:57,920 --> 02:18:01,160
Speaker 2: of the problems with sending people with gun into neighborhoods

2458
02:18:01,440 --> 02:18:03,040
Speaker 2: like this is part of why the way we do

2459
02:18:03,120 --> 02:18:05,600
Speaker 2: policing is such a bad idea, because there's no way

2460
02:18:05,680 --> 02:18:07,720
Speaker 2: to train out all of this. You can train out

2461
02:18:07,720 --> 02:18:11,760
Speaker 2: acorn guy, maybe maybe, but they didn't. But you cannot

2462
02:18:11,840 --> 02:18:15,160
Speaker 2: train out people panicking and doing things with guns that

2463
02:18:15,280 --> 02:18:16,360
Speaker 2: can never be taken back.

2464
02:18:16,560 --> 02:18:20,640
Speaker 5: Well. And one other aspect is like Hernandez starts firing

2465
02:18:20,720 --> 02:18:23,280
Speaker 5: his gun very shortly after he's yelling shots fired. Like

2466
02:18:23,520 --> 02:18:25,959
Speaker 5: getting that linear cause of events can be tricky because

2467
02:18:25,959 --> 02:18:28,160
Speaker 5: like you are hearing gunfire at the same time you

2468
02:18:28,240 --> 02:18:30,520
Speaker 5: were hearing him yell shots fired because he is shooting.

2469
02:18:31,080 --> 02:18:34,320
Speaker 5: And Roberts said that she wasn't sure if she or

2470
02:18:34,360 --> 02:18:36,680
Speaker 5: Hernandez even shot first, Like all of your memory in

2471
02:18:36,720 --> 02:18:39,440
Speaker 5: these instances can get really kind of blurry, like like

2472
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:42,040
Speaker 5: all of these like high stress scenarios, it actually can

2473
02:18:42,120 --> 02:18:46,240
Speaker 5: be hard to remember the exact manner of oh, yes, easily, yes,

2474
02:18:46,959 --> 02:18:49,320
Speaker 5: she said quote I'm seeing him on the ground yelling

2475
02:18:49,400 --> 02:18:50,039
Speaker 5: shots fired.

2476
02:18:50,200 --> 02:18:50,960
Speaker 2: I'm hit. I'm hit.

2477
02:18:51,280 --> 02:18:53,640
Speaker 5: I thought I thought I saw a deputy get murdered.

2478
02:18:54,040 --> 02:18:56,440
Speaker 5: I was close enough to see his facial expression that

2479
02:18:56,640 --> 02:19:00,440
Speaker 5: was fear, anxiety, it was it was horrible. I'm seeing

2480
02:19:00,520 --> 02:19:03,640
Speaker 5: him kind of trip fall, stumble something behind the vehicle.

2481
02:19:03,800 --> 02:19:05,800
Speaker 5: At some point he's able to kind of post up,

2482
02:19:06,040 --> 02:19:08,800
Speaker 5: but he was stumbling, crawling on the ground. I don't

2483
02:19:08,840 --> 02:19:10,880
Speaker 5: know how to explain it. He wasn't standing up straight,

2484
02:19:11,080 --> 02:19:13,720
Speaker 5: he was not in a tactical position. He was off

2485
02:19:13,760 --> 02:19:16,120
Speaker 5: as momentum, he was off balance, he was standing behind

2486
02:19:16,160 --> 02:19:17,760
Speaker 5: that car. It did not look like he was in

2487
02:19:17,840 --> 02:19:18,760
Speaker 5: control of himself.

2488
02:19:20,000 --> 02:19:24,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, yeah, that's like what she is saying. I'm

2489
02:19:24,320 --> 02:19:26,160
Speaker 2: not going to say this is like a good response,

2490
02:19:26,240 --> 02:19:28,080
Speaker 2: But it makes sense to me that she reacted the

2491
02:19:28,120 --> 02:19:30,600
Speaker 2: way she'd most people would write, which is why most

2492
02:19:30,640 --> 02:19:33,760
Speaker 2: people should not be given firearms and legal immunity to

2493
02:19:33,800 --> 02:19:36,600
Speaker 2: do whatever with them, right, But most people would have

2494
02:19:36,680 --> 02:19:40,960
Speaker 2: reacted in a why broadly similar manner without training, you know,

2495
02:19:41,120 --> 02:19:42,520
Speaker 2: without training and experience.

2496
02:19:42,720 --> 02:19:45,800
Speaker 5: Now, there's one way that she describes his kind of

2497
02:19:45,959 --> 02:19:50,680
Speaker 5: like weird stumbling on the ground quote. The auditory tone

2498
02:19:50,800 --> 02:19:53,960
Speaker 5: in his voice was terror. The best way to describe

2499
02:19:53,959 --> 02:19:56,280
Speaker 5: it was like watching a baby to raft trying to

2500
02:19:56,360 --> 02:19:58,160
Speaker 5: walk for the first time, trying to.

2501
02:19:58,160 --> 02:20:01,320
Speaker 2: Get the out of the road. That is that is

2502
02:20:01,400 --> 02:20:04,080
Speaker 2: going to echo in his mind until the day he dies.

2503
02:20:06,640 --> 02:20:15,000
Speaker 2: So maybe dressed stumbling learning to walk for the first time.

2504
02:20:15,560 --> 02:20:19,320
Speaker 2: Do you know what else is learning to walk? I

2505
02:20:19,360 --> 02:20:19,640
Speaker 2: don't know.

2506
02:20:19,760 --> 02:20:24,240
Speaker 5: That doesn't really now, do you know what else could

2507
02:20:24,280 --> 02:20:27,000
Speaker 5: perceive acorns as a threat to business.

2508
02:20:27,959 --> 02:20:30,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we I mean, the one thing all of

2509
02:20:30,680 --> 02:20:33,879
Speaker 2: our sponsors agree on is that acorns and all trees

2510
02:20:34,000 --> 02:20:37,000
Speaker 2: should be eliminated in the interest of better profit margins.

2511
02:20:37,080 --> 02:20:51,280
Speaker 2: So dangerous kill the natural world, live free. I want

2512
02:20:51,320 --> 02:20:53,080
Speaker 2: to know one other thing as I'm talking about, like

2513
02:20:54,360 --> 02:20:57,600
Speaker 2: why they I'm not surprised they reacted this way, and

2514
02:20:57,640 --> 02:20:59,600
Speaker 2: what it says to me about like how I think.

2515
02:20:59,720 --> 02:21:04,280
Speaker 2: Like I think that a group of moderately competent civilians

2516
02:21:04,320 --> 02:21:08,560
Speaker 2: with concealed firearms would have responded better than both officers

2517
02:21:08,600 --> 02:21:11,280
Speaker 2: in this situation. Large not for the reason that they're

2518
02:21:11,360 --> 02:21:15,520
Speaker 2: more smarter or better trained, because they probably aren't, but

2519
02:21:15,680 --> 02:21:18,720
Speaker 2: because they go through the world carrying a gun knowing

2520
02:21:18,840 --> 02:21:21,040
Speaker 2: that if anything they do with that gun, they're legally

2521
02:21:21,080 --> 02:21:24,840
Speaker 2: accountable for every shot fired they're accountable for, which is

2522
02:21:24,879 --> 02:21:28,000
Speaker 2: a different mind state than what police are trained to do,

2523
02:21:28,040 --> 02:21:31,560
Speaker 2: which is the instant you feel endangered, you should draw

2524
02:21:31,760 --> 02:21:35,360
Speaker 2: and be prepared to shoot or shoot immediately, because nothing

2525
02:21:35,440 --> 02:21:37,880
Speaker 2: matters more than you getting home, and you have qualified

2526
02:21:37,879 --> 02:21:39,360
Speaker 2: immunity on your side, right.

2527
02:21:39,879 --> 02:21:42,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, which allows you to interpret a very quiet tapping

2528
02:21:42,959 --> 02:21:48,560
Speaker 5: sound as a lethal threat to your life. Now, Sergeant

2529
02:21:48,600 --> 02:21:51,880
Speaker 5: Roberts said, that she did observe Hernandez move himself into

2530
02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:54,879
Speaker 5: kind of a kneeling shooting stance on his left knee

2531
02:21:54,920 --> 02:21:58,400
Speaker 5: with his right foot planted in front, but still quote,

2532
02:21:58,440 --> 02:22:00,320
Speaker 5: it seemed like his motor functions were not off running

2533
02:22:00,320 --> 02:22:02,360
Speaker 5: properly from what I saw. He told me again, shots

2534
02:22:02,400 --> 02:22:03,959
Speaker 5: her fire. He's completely out in the open. No one

2535
02:22:04,000 --> 02:22:05,520
Speaker 5: would think that's a good place to take a knee

2536
02:22:05,600 --> 02:22:09,240
Speaker 5: to tactically fire. So he was still trying to respond

2537
02:22:09,280 --> 02:22:12,680
Speaker 5: in some way, but still very very baby draft coated.

2538
02:22:12,720 --> 02:22:15,480
Speaker 2: It seems yeah, yeah, I mean, that seems like a

2539
02:22:15,600 --> 02:22:16,720
Speaker 2: constant thing for this fella.

2540
02:22:17,320 --> 02:22:17,360
Speaker 7: So.

2541
02:22:18,000 --> 02:22:21,040
Speaker 5: Roberts also admitted that she did not ever see the suspect.

2542
02:22:21,160 --> 02:22:23,800
Speaker 5: She could not see inside the patrol car and she

2543
02:22:23,879 --> 02:22:27,280
Speaker 5: couldn't hear anything coming from that area. Quote, if there

2544
02:22:27,360 --> 02:22:29,440
Speaker 5: would have been something going on in that vehicle, I

2545
02:22:29,920 --> 02:22:31,960
Speaker 5: don't know if I necessarily would have heard it. Was

2546
02:22:32,000 --> 02:22:34,200
Speaker 5: I hearing or seeing the windows be blasted out. No,

2547
02:22:34,520 --> 02:22:36,640
Speaker 5: I couldn't see the right side of the vehicle. But

2548
02:22:36,760 --> 02:22:39,000
Speaker 5: based on the circumstances, I'm thinking that somehow he shot

2549
02:22:39,080 --> 02:22:41,120
Speaker 5: Jesse from the back and it had struck him some

2550
02:22:41,320 --> 02:22:44,360
Speaker 5: way somehow. I don't know if the individual's gotten out

2551
02:22:44,360 --> 02:22:45,920
Speaker 5: of the car and it's on the other side, you know,

2552
02:22:46,080 --> 02:22:48,400
Speaker 5: like he's escaped somehow. I couldn't see if the door

2553
02:22:48,520 --> 02:22:50,560
Speaker 5: was wide open. I don't know if he's gotten out

2554
02:22:50,600 --> 02:22:52,760
Speaker 5: and they've had a little tussle. Is he's shooting from

2555
02:22:52,840 --> 02:22:54,440
Speaker 5: the back of the car. All these things are going

2556
02:22:54,520 --> 02:22:56,280
Speaker 5: through my head, but the main thing is that he's

2557
02:22:56,360 --> 02:22:57,680
Speaker 5: in the back of the car. He's got a gun,

2558
02:22:57,760 --> 02:22:59,760
Speaker 5: and we missed it, and somehow he shot Deputy her.

2559
02:22:59,840 --> 02:23:04,920
Speaker 5: Now so she also couldn't remember who shot first, but

2560
02:23:05,080 --> 02:23:07,440
Speaker 5: she denied the notion that she started shooting because she

2561
02:23:07,560 --> 02:23:11,560
Speaker 5: thought Hernandez fired his gun first. She was confident in

2562
02:23:11,680 --> 02:23:16,400
Speaker 5: her her own use of gunfire before before she could

2563
02:23:16,480 --> 02:23:18,120
Speaker 5: tell that Jesse was firing.

2564
02:23:18,640 --> 02:23:21,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, interesting quote.

2565
02:23:21,440 --> 02:23:23,400
Speaker 5: The threat was someone had shot him. We had an

2566
02:23:23,440 --> 02:23:25,480
Speaker 5: armed suspect in the back of the vehicle. Jesse was shot.

2567
02:23:25,560 --> 02:23:27,480
Speaker 5: I'm watching him, you know, fumble on the road. How

2568
02:23:27,520 --> 02:23:29,000
Speaker 5: do I give him more time? How do I draw

2569
02:23:29,000 --> 02:23:31,160
Speaker 5: the attention to me? How do I save him? I

2570
02:23:31,240 --> 02:23:33,400
Speaker 5: thought I was watching him get murdered. The tone in

2571
02:23:33,480 --> 02:23:35,800
Speaker 5: his voice, look on his face, the physical reactions. I'm

2572
02:23:35,800 --> 02:23:37,480
Speaker 5: thinking we missed the gun and this is it. How

2573
02:23:37,520 --> 02:23:40,280
Speaker 5: do I get to Jesse to save him. She she

2574
02:23:40,480 --> 02:23:42,720
Speaker 5: talks about how she quote couldn't let him be shot

2575
02:23:42,840 --> 02:23:44,840
Speaker 5: again again, as all of this is like so confident

2576
02:23:45,040 --> 02:23:48,080
Speaker 5: that that that this has happened, and they're so confident

2577
02:23:48,160 --> 02:23:50,640
Speaker 5: in their own use of force. She was also concerned

2578
02:23:50,720 --> 02:23:54,119
Speaker 5: that if the suspect got away, other people's lives could

2579
02:23:54,120 --> 02:23:56,480
Speaker 5: be in danger, like his girlfriend who was nearby and

2580
02:23:56,560 --> 02:24:00,680
Speaker 5: the friend who was talking to police about their domestic issue. Quote,

2581
02:24:00,800 --> 02:24:02,280
Speaker 5: there was a threat in the back of the patrol car.

2582
02:24:02,360 --> 02:24:03,920
Speaker 5: I had a deputy that was on the ground that

2583
02:24:04,040 --> 02:24:05,440
Speaker 5: was still a threat to Jesse's life. I needed to

2584
02:24:05,440 --> 02:24:07,520
Speaker 5: provide him some sort of cover or bring the attention

2585
02:24:07,640 --> 02:24:10,039
Speaker 5: to me. I'm watching him die. I've got to do something.

2586
02:24:10,040 --> 02:24:12,879
Speaker 5: I've got to do something. There's that just like overall

2587
02:24:14,040 --> 02:24:19,600
Speaker 5: constantly throughout this interview with the Professional Standards Investigation, she's

2588
02:24:19,680 --> 02:24:22,680
Speaker 5: just constantly saying how she thought that this man was

2589
02:24:22,720 --> 02:24:24,920
Speaker 5: gonna die. That's why she responded the way she did.

2590
02:24:25,320 --> 02:24:27,760
Speaker 5: Like she talks about how she can't render aid if

2591
02:24:27,800 --> 02:24:30,840
Speaker 5: there's still a threat, she has to like get regain

2592
02:24:30,920 --> 02:24:31,960
Speaker 5: control the situation.

2593
02:24:32,480 --> 02:24:35,240
Speaker 2: All of those are reasonable things to say, Yeah, all

2594
02:24:35,240 --> 02:24:37,080
Speaker 2: of those are reasonable things to say in a real

2595
02:24:37,160 --> 02:24:37,640
Speaker 2: gun fight.

2596
02:24:38,600 --> 02:24:42,160
Speaker 5: Yes, it's just a little bit less less valid with

2597
02:24:42,320 --> 02:24:47,680
Speaker 5: the en shiting incident. Is an acorn falling on a roof? Yes,

2598
02:24:48,080 --> 02:24:51,360
Speaker 5: and you're shooting directly at a man who's your own

2599
02:24:51,480 --> 02:24:55,000
Speaker 5: big car been searched two times and is wrapped inside,

2600
02:24:55,000 --> 02:24:56,040
Speaker 5: who has handcuffs on.

2601
02:24:56,720 --> 02:24:56,760
Speaker 1: Like.

2602
02:24:58,480 --> 02:25:01,320
Speaker 5: So, Yeah, After both cops spared off this large valley

2603
02:25:01,440 --> 02:25:05,040
Speaker 5: of bullets, they both repositioned behind cover, called in more backup,

2604
02:25:05,480 --> 02:25:08,240
Speaker 5: and Roberts tended to manage the situation and the other

2605
02:25:08,280 --> 02:25:12,200
Speaker 5: individuals in the area and eventually check in on Deputy Hernandez. Quote,

2606
02:25:12,680 --> 02:25:15,440
Speaker 5: the threat was still a threat until we were able

2607
02:25:15,520 --> 02:25:17,959
Speaker 5: to remove him from the car. Again, they're not viewing

2608
02:25:18,040 --> 02:25:20,040
Speaker 5: him as a person, They're viewing him as a threat.

2609
02:25:20,280 --> 02:25:23,200
Speaker 5: Like that is that is like he's no longer like

2610
02:25:23,240 --> 02:25:23,760
Speaker 5: a human being.

2611
02:25:23,840 --> 02:25:26,720
Speaker 2: He is he is a threat. That is what he represents.

2612
02:25:26,800 --> 02:25:26,920
Speaker 5: Now.

2613
02:25:27,400 --> 02:25:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and that is that is how they're trained

2614
02:25:30,160 --> 02:25:32,360
Speaker 2: to talk. And that is, by the way, like in

2615
02:25:32,480 --> 02:25:35,240
Speaker 2: a court of law, how you should talk, right, you don't.

2616
02:25:35,440 --> 02:25:36,960
Speaker 2: You would not say, if you were involved in the

2617
02:25:37,080 --> 02:25:40,440
Speaker 2: legal defensive shooting, I shot to kill. You would say

2618
02:25:40,480 --> 02:25:42,600
Speaker 2: I shot to stop the threat. That is like how

2619
02:25:42,640 --> 02:25:44,840
Speaker 2: people are trained, because that's what plays best in the court.

2620
02:25:45,320 --> 02:25:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2621
02:25:45,560 --> 02:25:48,520
Speaker 5: No, she all of her interview is very polished. She is,

2622
02:25:48,640 --> 02:25:51,640
Speaker 5: she likes very she's she's been a caught for fifteen years,

2623
02:25:51,680 --> 02:25:53,920
Speaker 5: like she is. She knows what she's saying here.

2624
02:25:54,040 --> 02:25:56,560
Speaker 2: Yes, she's been coached before. Yeah, she's she's aware.

2625
02:25:57,360 --> 02:25:59,360
Speaker 5: So after they were able to get to cover, she

2626
02:25:59,480 --> 02:26:02,040
Speaker 5: called in more resources. Quote, that's when we were able

2627
02:26:02,080 --> 02:26:05,480
Speaker 5: to treat it as more of a barricaded armed suspect situation.

2628
02:26:06,240 --> 02:26:08,960
Speaker 5: This poor dude, Yeah, like what do you do?

2629
02:26:09,240 --> 02:26:11,800
Speaker 2: Like you're hanging in the back of the car like everywhere,

2630
02:26:11,920 --> 02:26:15,240
Speaker 2: like like it seems like this guy is guilty of

2631
02:26:15,680 --> 02:26:18,240
Speaker 2: having a little bit of having an emotional breakdown with

2632
02:26:18,440 --> 02:26:21,200
Speaker 2: his partner and doing things he should not have done,

2633
02:26:21,480 --> 02:26:23,920
Speaker 2: none of which the penalty for is getting shot at

2634
02:26:24,040 --> 02:26:25,400
Speaker 2: while strapped into a car.

2635
02:26:25,640 --> 02:26:28,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, he stole his girlfriend's car, He sent her threatening messages.

2636
02:26:28,400 --> 02:26:31,279
Speaker 5: He was described as being abassive in the past. Yeah,

2637
02:26:31,360 --> 02:26:33,800
Speaker 5: there's bad things, but that doesn't mean you can get

2638
02:26:33,840 --> 02:26:37,400
Speaker 5: executed by police because they hurt an a chord Like, No,

2639
02:26:37,959 --> 02:26:38,480
Speaker 5: that is.

2640
02:26:38,520 --> 02:26:40,560
Speaker 2: Not that is not what our society has deemed the

2641
02:26:40,600 --> 02:26:43,840
Speaker 2: punishment for those options for those behaviors should be so.

2642
02:26:45,600 --> 02:26:48,400
Speaker 5: Roberts closed this interview by saying, quote, I don't think

2643
02:26:48,440 --> 02:26:51,040
Speaker 5: there's anything funny about it. It just went from zero

2644
02:26:51,160 --> 02:26:52,920
Speaker 5: to one hundred within the drop of a hat. I

2645
02:26:53,000 --> 02:26:54,680
Speaker 5: know we talk about it all the time, but when

2646
02:26:54,720 --> 02:26:57,280
Speaker 5: it does, it does. And she's talking about how, like

2647
02:26:57,400 --> 02:27:01,279
Speaker 5: how fast the situation escalates, like from a very standard

2648
02:27:01,320 --> 02:27:04,960
Speaker 5: interaction towards you're now multiple people are shooting, like this

2649
02:27:05,160 --> 02:27:07,959
Speaker 5: is it happens so quickly. It went from the zeer

2650
02:27:08,000 --> 02:27:09,440
Speaker 5: to one hundred within the drop of the hat.

2651
02:27:10,080 --> 02:27:13,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that is what happens with shootings.

2652
02:27:13,720 --> 02:27:16,560
Speaker 5: She knew that Hernandez was prior military and when in

2653
02:27:16,680 --> 02:27:20,360
Speaker 5: training Hernandez was training on her shift, she described him

2654
02:27:20,360 --> 02:27:24,039
Speaker 5: as quote a very squared away person, somebody that if

2655
02:27:24,040 --> 02:27:26,760
Speaker 5: they tell you something, you don't question it. I wanted

2656
02:27:26,840 --> 02:27:28,960
Speaker 5: Jesse on my shift. When I observed him in high

2657
02:27:29,000 --> 02:27:33,200
Speaker 5: stressful situations, he reacted appropriately. He wasn't afraid to respond

2658
02:27:34,000 --> 02:27:36,800
Speaker 5: and he's I think that last part is certainly true.

2659
02:27:37,000 --> 02:27:38,680
Speaker 5: He was not afraid to respond well.

2660
02:27:38,720 --> 02:27:42,120
Speaker 2: And this is why, again, when the response for a

2661
02:27:42,160 --> 02:27:43,760
Speaker 2: lot of people when I would talk about this to

2662
02:27:43,879 --> 02:27:45,640
Speaker 2: them is suspecting it had something to do with his

2663
02:27:45,720 --> 02:27:49,160
Speaker 2: military training that he responded this way. Soldiers aren't trained

2664
02:27:49,240 --> 02:27:52,720
Speaker 2: this way. Again, this is soldiers contrained in the field.

2665
02:27:53,040 --> 02:27:56,200
Speaker 2: But soldiers are generally trained to not air on the

2666
02:27:56,280 --> 02:27:59,680
Speaker 2: side of opening fire blindly because war crimes are a

2667
02:27:59,720 --> 02:28:02,080
Speaker 2: thing they're concerned about and they have a sense of

2668
02:28:02,160 --> 02:28:05,280
Speaker 2: professional pride against Again, not to say that they do

2669
02:28:05,440 --> 02:28:07,840
Speaker 2: not kill innocent people. They do all the time, because

2670
02:28:07,879 --> 02:28:10,320
Speaker 2: that's what war is. But this is not the way.

2671
02:28:10,680 --> 02:28:14,199
Speaker 2: So this is police training. This guy's bias towards reacting

2672
02:28:14,280 --> 02:28:16,680
Speaker 2: this way is the result of police training, not special

2673
02:28:16,760 --> 02:28:17,520
Speaker 2: forces training.

2674
02:28:18,080 --> 02:28:20,920
Speaker 5: She kind of reaffirmed her trust in Hernandez as a

2675
02:28:20,920 --> 02:28:23,920
Speaker 5: person who was like reliable, saying when they were on

2676
02:28:24,080 --> 02:28:26,880
Speaker 5: night shift during training, quote, he acted appropriately, He did

2677
02:28:26,920 --> 02:28:28,840
Speaker 5: not lose control of his emotions. I have a lot

2678
02:28:28,840 --> 02:28:31,080
Speaker 5: of respect for him. Actually, when he tells you something,

2679
02:28:31,280 --> 02:28:33,680
Speaker 5: it's not something like are you sure you know he'd

2680
02:28:33,720 --> 02:28:36,480
Speaker 5: tell you something and that's what's happening, or that's what happened.

2681
02:28:36,920 --> 02:28:38,879
Speaker 5: I don't think there's anything malicious about what he did.

2682
02:28:39,360 --> 02:28:40,160
Speaker 2: I'm not mad at him.

2683
02:28:40,160 --> 02:28:42,520
Speaker 5: I'm not upset about it because I truly believe that

2684
02:28:42,680 --> 02:28:46,360
Speaker 5: he thought that's what was happening, unquote, which is again,

2685
02:28:46,400 --> 02:28:50,280
Speaker 5: it just I'd be pissed you almost, Like I don't

2686
02:28:50,280 --> 02:28:52,680
Speaker 5: know if I was tricked into almost killing someone.

2687
02:28:53,600 --> 02:28:58,320
Speaker 2: I don't understand this reaction. Like it's this thin blue

2688
02:28:58,400 --> 02:29:01,480
Speaker 2: line shit, right, Yeah, they have to group together so

2689
02:29:01,800 --> 02:29:07,160
Speaker 2: so hard. Yeah, it's it's and it's like this guy

2690
02:29:07,760 --> 02:29:11,160
Speaker 2: got you into a situation where you could have shot

2691
02:29:11,240 --> 02:29:15,000
Speaker 2: a child, Like I would never forgive someone who put

2692
02:29:15,080 --> 02:29:18,840
Speaker 2: me in that position for no good reason, right, Like,

2693
02:29:19,560 --> 02:29:21,840
Speaker 2: it's why that's such such an insane response to me.

2694
02:29:22,360 --> 02:29:24,600
Speaker 5: So she has to keep affirming that he has like

2695
02:29:24,600 --> 02:29:26,400
Speaker 5: a good judgment, and it's it's so bizarre.

2696
02:29:26,520 --> 02:29:30,199
Speaker 2: No, he doesn't, like he very clearly doesn't. You'll watch

2697
02:29:30,280 --> 02:29:33,440
Speaker 2: the video. It'd be one thing if like they were

2698
02:29:33,600 --> 02:29:36,200
Speaker 2: under fire and he shot and his bullet went wide

2699
02:29:36,240 --> 02:29:38,440
Speaker 2: and hit a civilian and it's no, that's like absolutely,

2700
02:29:38,600 --> 02:29:41,440
Speaker 2: it's just a horrible accident. But like his judgment wasn't bad.

2701
02:29:41,520 --> 02:29:44,520
Speaker 2: It was just a terrible situation. This is so different,

2702
02:29:44,920 --> 02:29:47,120
Speaker 2: like and that she's still going to bat for him,

2703
02:29:47,160 --> 02:29:50,320
Speaker 2: says everything about cop cops, cop brain.

2704
02:29:50,640 --> 02:29:53,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's a few lines that I want to read

2705
02:29:53,240 --> 02:29:55,840
Speaker 5: before we close. Out here that are in the conclusion

2706
02:29:56,400 --> 02:29:59,840
Speaker 5: of the of the report can't wait. They describe her

2707
02:30:00,000 --> 02:30:03,960
Speaker 5: and his legs as quote, stopped working correctly. I think

2708
02:30:04,000 --> 02:30:05,800
Speaker 5: it's just a really funny way to phrase it.

2709
02:30:06,200 --> 02:30:07,720
Speaker 2: I would describe his brain that way.

2710
02:30:07,840 --> 02:30:11,640
Speaker 5: But yeah, his legs weren't responding as he intended. But

2711
02:30:11,800 --> 02:30:14,800
Speaker 5: there was no evidence to support anything impacted Deputy Hernandez.

2712
02:30:15,000 --> 02:30:17,280
Speaker 5: No defects are found on his uniform or his blistering

2713
02:30:17,320 --> 02:30:21,439
Speaker 5: vests support the impact Hernandez. It's response was not objectively reasonable,

2714
02:30:21,959 --> 02:30:26,879
Speaker 5: so they they ruled that Hernandez's response was not objectively reasonable,

2715
02:30:26,959 --> 02:30:28,080
Speaker 5: that it was not appropriate.

2716
02:30:28,480 --> 02:30:30,920
Speaker 2: Positively surprised about that, but they.

2717
02:30:30,920 --> 02:30:34,800
Speaker 5: Found Sergeant Roberts's response as being reasonable because she believed

2718
02:30:34,800 --> 02:30:37,119
Speaker 5: Hernandez has been shot because of his tone of voice,

2719
02:30:37,400 --> 02:30:39,760
Speaker 5: his stumbling, attempts to move and stand up, and it's

2720
02:30:39,760 --> 02:30:42,480
Speaker 5: apparent quote lack of control over his body.

2721
02:30:43,400 --> 02:30:45,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would not call it. I wouldn't say her

2722
02:30:45,360 --> 02:30:47,840
Speaker 2: response is reasonable. I would say her response is what

2723
02:30:47,879 --> 02:30:49,680
Speaker 2: I would expect most people to do.

2724
02:30:49,920 --> 02:30:53,160
Speaker 5: No, or it is reasonable in terms of how police

2725
02:30:53,240 --> 02:30:58,039
Speaker 5: procedure operates, like she followed the correct protocols for interacting

2726
02:30:58,080 --> 02:30:59,039
Speaker 5: as a police officer.

2727
02:30:59,240 --> 02:31:02,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't believe under the laws she would have

2728
02:31:02,120 --> 02:31:03,840
Speaker 2: been found liable by any court.

2729
02:31:04,280 --> 02:31:07,040
Speaker 5: No, they said, quote Robert's found out Hernandez to be

2730
02:31:07,080 --> 02:31:08,920
Speaker 5: a reliable depity that she could trust. She had no

2731
02:31:08,959 --> 02:31:11,120
Speaker 5: reason to doubt what Hernandez had been telling her. She

2732
02:31:11,240 --> 02:31:14,520
Speaker 5: described the auditory tone of Hernandez's voice as terror, the

2733
02:31:14,600 --> 02:31:17,840
Speaker 5: look on his face as being quote consistent with being

2734
02:31:17,920 --> 02:31:22,480
Speaker 5: in feary. I love that kind of cop speak, consistent

2735
02:31:22,640 --> 02:31:23,640
Speaker 5: with being in fear.

2736
02:31:23,879 --> 02:31:28,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, he looked scared. Yeah, amazing. I I do want

2737
02:31:28,360 --> 02:31:30,360
Speaker 2: to go over one thing before we come out, because

2738
02:31:30,360 --> 02:31:32,680
Speaker 2: this is again something I've been asked by people, and

2739
02:31:33,160 --> 02:31:35,000
Speaker 2: you know, maybe this is actionable. If you ever found

2740
02:31:35,040 --> 02:31:37,400
Speaker 2: yourself handcuffed in the back of a police car and

2741
02:31:37,560 --> 02:31:39,880
Speaker 2: they start shooting at you, you should know how this

2742
02:31:40,000 --> 02:31:42,760
Speaker 2: guy survived because reading the interview with him, he was like,

2743
02:31:42,879 --> 02:31:44,440
Speaker 2: as soon as I realized they were shooting at me,

2744
02:31:44,600 --> 02:31:48,600
Speaker 2: I like flung myself down sideways and laid flat. I

2745
02:31:48,720 --> 02:31:50,320
Speaker 2: think in front of the seat. He might have been

2746
02:31:50,360 --> 02:31:52,280
Speaker 2: on the seat. I would get in front of the

2747
02:31:52,360 --> 02:31:57,120
Speaker 2: seat if you can. But the reason he survived is

2748
02:31:57,360 --> 02:32:02,360
Speaker 2: that handguns number one, police carry hollow points in their handguns.

2749
02:32:02,400 --> 02:32:04,600
Speaker 2: Which is a bullet that has a hole in the

2750
02:32:04,680 --> 02:32:07,600
Speaker 2: slug the thing that goes into somebody. And the reason

2751
02:32:07,640 --> 02:32:09,920
Speaker 2: why you make a hollow point is that a hollow

2752
02:32:10,000 --> 02:32:14,879
Speaker 2: point expands immediately upon impact, so it doesn't penetrate as well.

2753
02:32:15,000 --> 02:32:17,120
Speaker 2: It will not go through armor, and it will not

2754
02:32:17,280 --> 02:32:20,960
Speaker 2: go through objects very well. But when it hits meat,

2755
02:32:21,080 --> 02:32:25,400
Speaker 2: it expands and so instead of going through a body,

2756
02:32:26,000 --> 02:32:28,840
Speaker 2: it stops and it imparts all of the force from

2757
02:32:28,920 --> 02:32:31,160
Speaker 2: the bullet into that body, so it is better at

2758
02:32:31,240 --> 02:32:33,640
Speaker 2: stopping people. But what that means is when someone is

2759
02:32:33,640 --> 02:32:35,880
Speaker 2: shooting at something like a car and shooting into the

2760
02:32:35,920 --> 02:32:38,320
Speaker 2: back of a car and you have that whole reinforced

2761
02:32:38,360 --> 02:32:40,320
Speaker 2: trunk and backseat of a police car to go through

2762
02:32:40,800 --> 02:32:44,600
Speaker 2: those nine millimeters, rounds are unlikely to penetrate very far.

2763
02:32:44,800 --> 02:32:47,160
Speaker 2: So if you are laying down in front of the

2764
02:32:47,240 --> 02:32:49,960
Speaker 2: seat or flat on the seat, your odds of not

2765
02:32:50,160 --> 02:32:53,320
Speaker 2: getting hit are pretty good. Like he had, I'm not

2766
02:32:53,480 --> 02:32:56,760
Speaker 2: surprised he survived having done what he did. You know,

2767
02:32:56,800 --> 02:32:59,120
Speaker 2: if you're sitting up and you've got body parts that

2768
02:32:59,240 --> 02:33:02,480
Speaker 2: are like view of the windows, you're very likely to

2769
02:33:02,560 --> 02:33:05,320
Speaker 2: get hit. But because he did what he did, he

2770
02:33:05,520 --> 02:33:09,400
Speaker 2: essentially saved his own life, is what it's my interpretation

2771
02:33:09,520 --> 02:33:10,600
Speaker 2: of what I've read.

2772
02:33:10,959 --> 02:33:13,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, I mean it's it's it is a terrifying

2773
02:33:13,600 --> 02:33:16,280
Speaker 5: scenario that there was. There was an instant recently of

2774
02:33:17,840 --> 02:33:20,280
Speaker 5: this officer who made his first ever arrest. He had

2775
02:33:20,640 --> 02:33:24,840
Speaker 5: two suspects locked in the back and he got distracted

2776
02:33:24,879 --> 02:33:27,640
Speaker 5: about driving. He drove his car off the road into

2777
02:33:27,720 --> 02:33:29,240
Speaker 5: a lake, and both of.

2778
02:33:29,400 --> 02:33:32,199
Speaker 2: The suspects drowned. Jesus fucking Christ.

2779
02:33:32,080 --> 02:33:34,280
Speaker 5: Like this is this is like all these things point

2780
02:33:34,320 --> 02:33:37,720
Speaker 5: towards just inherent problems with the policing system.

2781
02:33:38,520 --> 02:33:40,279
Speaker 2: Cops bad, avoid at all costs.

2782
02:33:40,520 --> 02:33:43,080
Speaker 5: It's terrifying, Like it's it is like these people can

2783
02:33:43,160 --> 02:33:45,480
Speaker 5: just act like this can kidnap, people can do all

2784
02:33:45,560 --> 02:33:49,640
Speaker 5: these things and face basically no repercussions at least turn

2785
02:33:49,720 --> 02:33:52,040
Speaker 5: ind as is no longer a cop, which is good,

2786
02:33:52,240 --> 02:33:54,560
Speaker 5: but like that doesn't fix any of the underlying problems

2787
02:33:54,600 --> 02:33:56,960
Speaker 5: with training that cause people to react like this in

2788
02:33:57,040 --> 02:34:00,360
Speaker 5: the face of a squirrel armed with an AI corn

2789
02:34:01,200 --> 02:34:03,560
Speaker 5: being the most dangerous thing that you can encounter.

2790
02:34:04,160 --> 02:34:08,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very bad police work. Avoid cops.

2791
02:34:09,520 --> 02:34:12,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, pretty much pretty much. So, Yeah, that is

2792
02:34:12,760 --> 02:34:14,760
Speaker 5: that is what we have to say on the acorn

2793
02:34:14,840 --> 02:34:15,560
Speaker 5: involved shooting.

2794
02:34:16,000 --> 02:34:17,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, great stuff.

2795
02:34:17,920 --> 02:34:20,760
Speaker 5: Watch out for acorns, Watch out for droops. Also dangerous.

2796
02:34:20,800 --> 02:34:24,360
Speaker 5: They can fall off a tree. Yeah, pine cones can

2797
02:34:24,440 --> 02:34:25,400
Speaker 5: sometimes be lethal.

2798
02:34:25,640 --> 02:34:27,680
Speaker 2: Oh they call those the widow makers.

2799
02:34:28,200 --> 02:34:30,160
Speaker 5: Eyes on the sky, folks, You never know.

2800
02:34:31,680 --> 02:34:38,440
Speaker 2: All right, bye, Hey, We'll be back Monday with more

2801
02:34:38,520 --> 02:34:41,160
Speaker 2: episodes every week from now until the heat death of

2802
02:34:41,200 --> 02:34:41,720
Speaker 2: the Universe.

2803
02:34:42,360 --> 02:34:44,680
Speaker 7: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.

2804
02:34:44,920 --> 02:34:47,560
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

2805
02:34:47,640 --> 02:34:49,800
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

2806
02:34:49,879 --> 02:34:53,280
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

2807
02:34:53,720 --> 02:34:55,800
Speaker 7: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

2808
02:34:55,879 --> 02:34:58,879
Speaker 7: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources.

2809
02:34:59,120 --> 02:34:59,879
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.