Speaker 1: Pushing. Remember that summer maybe it was maybe it was
Speaker 1: right after we graduated from high school and we basically
Speaker 1: did a tour of the South Side playing bid whist
Speaker 1: at like, you know, different different people's houses. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: We were like, yeah, this was like a summer of
Speaker 1: being a grown up for the first time. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And even to be invited to the table, you know.
Speaker 1: And and here we were these two kids, one white,
Speaker 1: you know, and and and uh and you know it
Speaker 1: it was all kind of color. It was. It was
Speaker 1: straight up like it was straight up like white man
Speaker 1: can't jump, like we were hustling. We were hustling. White man.
Speaker 1: White man can't bid, right, white bi can't bid. I
Speaker 1: love it. Yeah, so let's tell that. Let's tell tell
Speaker 1: people what bid whist it. Bid whist is a more
Speaker 1: advanced version of space. You have four players and two pairs,
Speaker 1: and you bid your hand based on the number of
Speaker 1: suits you can win. And the cool thing about bid wiss,
Speaker 1: unlike spades, is spades is based on how many spades
Speaker 1: you have in hand, because that's the best suit in
Speaker 1: your hand, it dominates all the others. But in bid
Speaker 1: it could be any suit and it creates tremendous variation,
Speaker 1: and a lot of the action depends on bidding. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: when we get together, I'm Martha's vineyard. Our two families,
Speaker 1: uh you know, me and you and our wives Danielle
Speaker 1: and Stephanie. We end up playing late at night most nights,
Speaker 1: and yeah, most nights. So here here Actually we were
Speaker 1: playing this summer and uh, I just I had to
Speaker 1: just press record on my phone because it was getting
Speaker 1: out of hand and I wanted a record of this.
Speaker 1: You can't talk Sto'm talking across the board. Oh see,
Speaker 1: this is what happened with bid. I actually learned playing
Speaker 1: from your mom, who is as cutthroat like that. She
Speaker 1: would hear that in not her head and be like, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: don't don't sit down at the table with me if
Speaker 1: you're not prepared to you know, right to not only lose,
Speaker 1: but also to be embarrassed at the same time. Don't
Speaker 1: come to a gunfight with a knife, she would say, right, okay.
Speaker 1: I'm Khalil Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends,
Speaker 1: one black, one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist.
Speaker 1: And this is some of my best friends are in
Speaker 1: this show. We wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities
Speaker 1: are the deeply divided and the unequal country. And on
Speaker 1: this episode, we're gonna take a little vacation. I think
Speaker 1: we should talk about this magical place for our families.
Speaker 1: Where is it. It's Martha's Vinyards, all right. Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: a place where people get together and renew their energy.
Speaker 1: They we connect with family, and a lot of people
Speaker 1: also go there for cultural reteets and for making social
Speaker 1: change and building political power. So I think I think
Speaker 1: there's a lot to share about the real Martha's family. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So then this TV show came out this fall, Our
Speaker 1: Kind of People, which at least ostensibly is set at
Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard, And our show isn't going to be really
Speaker 1: about that TV show, but it is going to be
Speaker 1: about Martha's Vineyard, that's right. And because the show plays
Speaker 1: on this notion of powerful black people, Uh, you've got
Speaker 1: denied to thinking about your own power to talk about, yeah,
Speaker 1: but proximity to power. And I think that's that's kind
Speaker 1: of what what happens at Martha's Vai had all kinds
Speaker 1: of interesting people come together for vacation. Let's get on
Speaker 1: the ferry. Let's go, Yes, we go, that's right? Whatsoll
Speaker 1: here we come? No? How many years have we been
Speaker 1: going to the vineyard? You know, I don't together. I
Speaker 1: don't count. It could either it could either be five
Speaker 1: or it could be ten. I'm not sure. Well, I
Speaker 1: think the first trip together was back in twenty twelve,
Speaker 1: so about a decade. I just have this mental image
Speaker 1: of like Jonah being super tiny. I think the first
Speaker 1: time maybe he was three Injustice was yeah, yeah, Injustice,
Speaker 1: who's my youngest was five? Yeah. So so part of
Speaker 1: the spending summers together for me is also seeing our
Speaker 1: children grow up together. You know that that that that
Speaker 1: they're cousins in this way and you know there I'm
Speaker 1: uncle Ben, your uncle Khalil. That's right. I mean to me,
Speaker 1: it feels like, you know the way that people put
Speaker 1: those markers on their their closets of how tall their
Speaker 1: their kids have gotten, that there's something over the summer
Speaker 1: of seeing marking time by when the child graduates from
Speaker 1: the carousel to the arcade, to going to backdoor Donuts
Speaker 1: at midnight, yeah, backdoor donuts, yes, to then hanging out
Speaker 1: at Ocean Park, to then like even driving to a
Speaker 1: beach party, like you know, the old PSA. You know,
Speaker 1: is your kid home? Right? Do you know a kid?
Speaker 1: The answer is no, because we're on Martha's Vineyard, right,
Speaker 1: So that's part of the magic of the place. You know,
Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard is this place that historically has been overwhelmingly white,
Speaker 1: from sort of upper income to very wealthy. There's different
Speaker 1: parts of the island that white people own homes and
Speaker 1: vacation there. But the fact of owning a home is
Speaker 1: a big deal. It's an island after all, so it's
Speaker 1: not easy to get to and you know, people fly
Speaker 1: in and out of the space. Yeah, So I mean
Speaker 1: it's a predominally white space. You know, it's mostly my
Speaker 1: kind of people, right, yes, but for a long long time,
Speaker 1: it's also been a place, a special place for African Americans.
Speaker 1: And there's a place called Oak Bluffs. It is traditionally
Speaker 1: the place where African Americans have have been living and
Speaker 1: vacationing for more than a century. So, I man, I've
Speaker 1: been dying to talk to you about this new show
Speaker 1: on Fox series Our kind of People. Our kind of people,
Speaker 1: that's right, yes, yes, our kind of people. So this
Speaker 1: show it's on Primetime Network television, and it's about or
Speaker 1: supposedly about Oak Bluffs. A lot of people know about,
Speaker 1: probably most obviously because the Obama is a vacation there
Speaker 1: for years. But I don't think this TV show is
Speaker 1: about Martha's Venue really at all. It's it's made by
Speaker 1: the creators of Empire, and it's kind of just a
Speaker 1: version of Empire, not set in New York City, but
Speaker 1: set on this make believe fantasy island. But really it's
Speaker 1: even shot in North Carolina. Yeah, we're not going to
Speaker 1: spoil anything about the show, but it's a soap opera
Speaker 1: and it's super setsy, right, It's it's wildly melodramatic. You know,
Speaker 1: beautiful people who are the upper class black echelon, and
Speaker 1: all their scheming and machinations of triu of intrigue and
Speaker 1: backstabbing and and like illegitimate children and who belongs to
Speaker 1: who and who extorted who In the past, I've seen
Speaker 1: your type for four social climbers who save their money
Speaker 1: for summerhouse to come here in Floss when the family's
Speaker 1: on this island, hold it down all year long. Because
Speaker 1: we don't just have a summer fleeing with black excellence.
Speaker 1: We are black excellence. Yeah, it's it's a total caricature
Speaker 1: and it doesn't really have anything to do with the
Speaker 1: actual real Martha's Vineyard the culture of Oak Bluffs insomuch
Speaker 1: as it's a kind of class critique of you know,
Speaker 1: a slice of black America, right Like, that's that's kind
Speaker 1: of what the show is set up for. So so
Speaker 1: we watch this new TV show our kind of people,
Speaker 1: and we had such a strong reaction to it, right like,
Speaker 1: this isn't the Martha's Vineyard that we know, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 1: And as much as this is personal to me, it's
Speaker 1: also really powerful. I mean it's powerful to see what
Speaker 1: it means, you know, to not be performing politics of
Speaker 1: respectability in front of white people and you know what
Speaker 1: Tony Moore, us and or others would call, you know,
Speaker 1: the white gaze. I mean, people really do get to
Speaker 1: let their hair down, and in that space all sorts
Speaker 1: of amazing things happen, and that makes a place really special.
Speaker 1: I've always thought about this of the beauty and Martha's
Speaker 1: Vineyard that it's unlike other places. It has a kind
Speaker 1: of subtlety, even a kind of quietness, which is really
Speaker 1: powerful to me. And my favorite spot actually is that
Speaker 1: strip between a pond and state beach, which we know
Speaker 1: really well. And you are both looking out over this
Speaker 1: pond with willows in the in the sunset or the
Speaker 1: sunrise coming over it, and then to the other side
Speaker 1: you're looking out into the ocean and it's just kind
Speaker 1: of stunning to me. Not in its drama. It's not dramatic,
Speaker 1: but just to be in this place of tranquility. There's
Speaker 1: another beach just up the street, or so to speak,
Speaker 1: on Beach Road. It is the Inkwell, it is the
Speaker 1: historic beach that African Americans carved out a space for
Speaker 1: their own, and that is where the polar Bears. You
Speaker 1: gotta like explain what are polar bears? Listen. Polar Bears
Speaker 1: is a group of women who started out decades ago
Speaker 1: for an early morning swim. And they started doing this
Speaker 1: because a lot of the early black vineyarders were actually
Speaker 1: people who worked on the island as domestics a long
Speaker 1: time ago, and so this was an opportunity for them
Speaker 1: to get together before they started their work day. That
Speaker 1: evolved over the years, and then as the group and
Speaker 1: the number of black vacationers on the vineyard and homeowners
Speaker 1: grew over the decades, Polar Bears went from a tiny
Speaker 1: group of women to I think Stephanie mentioned this summer
Speaker 1: there were like one hundred and fifty or something. Yeah,
Speaker 1: more than one hundred and fifty. It's really really special.
Speaker 1: It's and uh, it's it's it's kind of one of
Speaker 1: those things at the Vineyard that you can't find anywhere
Speaker 1: else in the world. And I'd say, like, when I
Speaker 1: was thinking about our kind of people, that TV show
Speaker 1: and just like how high strung everyone was to sort
Speaker 1: of cut each other's throats. Yeah, I mean that show.
Speaker 1: You're right, it does. It does make everybody seem like
Speaker 1: some backstabbing, conniving, evil person. But in fact, the Polar
Speaker 1: Bears itself is so reflective of the culture of Oak
Speaker 1: Bluffs because, as Stephanie told me, at the end of
Speaker 1: every session, the leader, Miss Caroline, says, you know how
Speaker 1: you feel right now before you start your day, Take
Speaker 1: that with you when you go back to to the shore.
Speaker 1: Spread that feeling and that love and that warmness to
Speaker 1: everyone you encounter this day. Isn't that amazing? And then
Speaker 1: you do it the same thing the next day. So
Speaker 1: that's what Martha's Vineyard is so much about. You know,
Speaker 1: there is a specific reason why we go there to
Speaker 1: Martha's vineyard and even that part of Martha's vineyard around
Speaker 1: Oak Bluffs, and not to somewhere that's actually much closer
Speaker 1: to home for us, like it could be the Indian
Speaker 1: on the Dunes, or it could be Michigan, or for you,
Speaker 1: it could be it could be the Jersey Shore. And
Speaker 1: that reason is race, jan That's that's that's maybe a
Speaker 1: but it is. It is this history there of race. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I mean, I'll just say, you know, Stephanie and
Speaker 1: I over the years have gone on honeymoons and anniversary trips,
Speaker 1: and I stopped. You've gone on one more than one honeymoon. Well, well,
Speaker 1: not exactly what you give my point anniversary stuff, okay,
Speaker 1: And this is my point about the difference between going
Speaker 1: to Jamaica or some other place like in Jamaica, which
Speaker 1: we've been a bunch of times. Um, you know, it's
Speaker 1: a black country, and everybody who works in these resorts
Speaker 1: is black, but all the vacationers are white. And you
Speaker 1: can count on one or two hands a number of
Speaker 1: black people who are actually there on vacation. And so
Speaker 1: I just you know, stopped enjoying it as much as
Speaker 1: I could, because you know, Stephanie would want to dance,
Speaker 1: like you know, at the karaoke bar, and I'd be like,
Speaker 1: we're the only black people dancing. All the white people
Speaker 1: are looking at us. It's just uncomfortable. Yeah, And so
Speaker 1: the vineyard couldn't be more different. I mean, it is
Speaker 1: everything from being able to completely be yourself. There is
Speaker 1: no white gaze. Uh, there are tons of white people around,
Speaker 1: but it's as close to like the experience of equality,
Speaker 1: meaning that no one's looking at anybody like why are
Speaker 1: you here? You don't belong here. It is wonderful for
Speaker 1: guests to be alone and help and host their friends
Speaker 1: and simultaneously like the best possible family vacation. Hey, listen,
Speaker 1: I've been on vacation too, to places without you and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, even as a kid going on vacates with
Speaker 1: my family, it turned out they were they were mostly
Speaker 1: white spaces. You know that that is kind of the
Speaker 1: world in which we i it's it's it's America, and
Speaker 1: it's it's vacation places around the world, right, and so
Speaker 1: so that really is something unique about going to Martha's
Speaker 1: Vineyard in August at least to this part of the island. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's the thing. The truth is that what makes the
Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard unique is that it isn't like a form
Speaker 1: of segregated not at all. Really is still in this
Speaker 1: place of tremendous integration. Let's talk some about how Oak
Speaker 1: Bluffs came to be. There's a documentary by Stanley Nelson
Speaker 1: called The Place of Our Own, which he made in
Speaker 1: two thousand and four, and his film feels to me
Speaker 1: like a counterpoint to our kind of people to that
Speaker 1: TV show we were talking about at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the episode. The documentary has real people in it and
Speaker 1: it's so grounded in a sense of place. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 1: I think for me, M. Stanley Nelson is is probably
Speaker 1: the most prolific and award winning documentarian period and as
Speaker 1: an African American, his content has been just disremarkable. And
Speaker 1: so I've known Stanley Nelson for a long time. You know,
Speaker 1: he's done a lot of stuff at the Schaumberg Center.
Speaker 1: So I called him up and I wanted to ask
Speaker 1: him about this new TV show, but I also wanted
Speaker 1: to ask him about the history of Martha's Vineyard. He's
Speaker 1: been gone there for sixty five years. Oh, you're being
Speaker 1: the journalist exactly. You know, we historians do do oral history.
Speaker 1: My friend. Oh my god, this place, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just an incredible place and it's and it's a
Speaker 1: place where because black people have been going there, you know,
Speaker 1: since the eighteen hundreds, right, black people have for a
Speaker 1: whole And he said essentially that sometime in the late
Speaker 1: nineteenth century, African Americans had been there as domestics working
Speaker 1: for white property owners, were working in their homes, doing
Speaker 1: some of the domestic work that we find all over
Speaker 1: America in the nineteenth century. And one of the things
Speaker 1: that comes as a result of that is the ability
Speaker 1: to buy a very inexpensive land and property, tiny little houses,
Speaker 1: some of them these little cottages that to this day
Speaker 1: are famous, um in Oak Bluffs as these little gingerbread
Speaker 1: houses that people, you know, sometimes rent. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean there there are lots of cultural depictions, and most
Speaker 1: of them play to the kind of internal class politics
Speaker 1: of Black America that there is this upper crust elitist
Speaker 1: group of people and the vineyard is their playground. Uh.
Speaker 1: And you know, we see that in in a lot
Speaker 1: of different versions of this. But you know in different
Speaker 1: in different ways. The Inkwell from nineteen ninety four. Love
Speaker 1: that film, but by the end of vacation you'll learn
Speaker 1: all the right moves yet at the eg Well. And
Speaker 1: and also Jaws, right, Jaws, Jaws, that's right, the most famous.
Speaker 1: My daughter and I just watched Jaws. She's taking a
Speaker 1: class and filmmaking, and she was like, let's try to
Speaker 1: count the black people in it. And there was like
Speaker 1: it was like five, you know, every beach scene, everything. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right. What a great film. And film Jaws all
Speaker 1: over Martha's Vineyard. Yeah, that's right. And then there was
Speaker 1: this famous novel set at Martha's Vineyard, The Wedding by
Speaker 1: Dorothy West. And there's there's an Oprah mini series produced
Speaker 1: by Oprah Winfrey in nineteen ninety eight. Now, how in
Speaker 1: heaven for me could Eddie Banish to possibly read her
Speaker 1: precious cottage to someone He definitely comes from one of
Speaker 1: the viral elis and just a word. Dorothy West ended
Speaker 1: up spending fifty years on the vineyard and wanted to
Speaker 1: tell this mid century story about basically class and skin
Speaker 1: color on the island and wrote The Wedding. She's part
Speaker 1: of this community of black women homeowners and to to
Speaker 1: this very day they do social service, they do philanthropic
Speaker 1: things and do fundraisers, but they're part of kind of
Speaker 1: the core of the black community of of of oak Bluffs. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and early on, I mean I saw this as well,
Speaker 1: that oak Bluffs was also in the Green Book, which
Speaker 1: was a way to tell black people where it was
Speaker 1: safe to travel, where they could actually they could actually
Speaker 1: like you know, you can rent in this cottage and
Speaker 1: this in here, and you can come here. And so
Speaker 1: this sort of pattern of people coming and more and
Speaker 1: more people coming and following starts to develop. And at
Speaker 1: the heart of this black community was this beach called
Speaker 1: the Inkwell, it's actually a tiny, tiny part of the
Speaker 1: coast of beaches that that Martha's Vineyard provides, but it
Speaker 1: still is the kind of center of gravity for the
Speaker 1: black community that has just blossomed and bloomed. And you
Speaker 1: know where once it was property owners and their children
Speaker 1: and generations of those folks. Now visitors don't just come
Speaker 1: from Boston or New York. They come from Chicago, like
Speaker 1: the Austins, they come from Detroit, they come from California,
Speaker 1: they come from Houston, and it is just you know,
Speaker 1: ballooned with energy and excitement and culture. Even in August,
Speaker 1: at the height of this moment of when it's its
Speaker 1: most the black visitors are at their peak. The island
Speaker 1: as a whole is still largely white, like beyond Beyond
Speaker 1: Oak Bluffs, like you know, Black Dog Cafe, Nantucket red
Speaker 1: kind of place. And there's something about that, like this
Speaker 1: part of Martha's Vineyard during August, which feels like a
Speaker 1: what if about America? Like what if America was not
Speaker 1: racist and segregated in the way that it is right
Speaker 1: and you would experience spaces like this. Yeah, for me
Speaker 1: is like both insider and outsider, Like, so my wife
Speaker 1: is black and my kids are biracial, and they they
Speaker 1: sort of revel in this place. Yeah, it feels really
Speaker 1: it still really is such a remarkable place and unlike
Speaker 1: really any other place I've been. But I will say
Speaker 1: professionally it's a play swear. I mean literally, there's one
Speaker 1: degree of separation between me and folks that I either
Speaker 1: work with or no. And I think this is a
Speaker 1: relatively recent phenomenon in the last fifteen years or so,
Speaker 1: that there are all these sort of cultural events that
Speaker 1: are happening there over this month as well. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: film festivals, there's our shows, there's book talks. You know,
Speaker 1: people are giving lectures. So when we come back, let's
Speaker 1: talk more about that, because I think that the ways
Speaker 1: that people there want to engage socially and politically while
Speaker 1: they're on vacation. Like you just said, it's not just
Speaker 1: an escape to go there, but it's also a way
Speaker 1: to organize and strategize and figure out how to deal
Speaker 1: with the real world with racism and injustice, all the
Speaker 1: things that are going back on what you could say
Speaker 1: is the mainland. Yeah, we'll talk about what that looks
Speaker 1: like up close. We were just starting to talk about
Speaker 1: all these cultural events in Martha's Vineyard. You know, they
Speaker 1: happen all over the island, but one of the special
Speaker 1: places where they happened is a church called Union Chapel.
Speaker 1: And it's this beautiful church built in something like eighteen
Speaker 1: seventy eighteen seventy one. It is shape like an octagon.
Speaker 1: It's mostly wood. It has these high risers. In addition
Speaker 1: to pews, it also has a balcony that goes around
Speaker 1: I wrap around balcony on three sides. It has open
Speaker 1: doors on each side. There's no air conditioning, so like
Speaker 1: it's just letting air in and every Sunday beautiful in
Speaker 1: that way. Four sides of it open up with two
Speaker 1: double doors, and it's on a little rise, like on
Speaker 1: a tiny little hill, so it feels like it's elevated.
Speaker 1: It's very it feels like a place of a reflection. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so in some ways it's like the spiritual home of
Speaker 1: the black community during the high season of all I guess, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a beautiful way to put it. And we end
Speaker 1: up going there a lot as well for all kinds
Speaker 1: of events, right, And I just have to say this,
Speaker 1: look the first time I saw Stacey Abrams with that
Speaker 1: Union chapel. This first time, says Stacey Abrams, being the
Speaker 1: black woman who ran for governor of Georgia. So she
Speaker 1: lost in a controversial election a few years ago, but
Speaker 1: she's also helped to lead Georgia in this most recent
Speaker 1: election that produced Senator Warnock. I saw and met Keisha
Speaker 1: Lance Bottoms there for the first time. This is a
Speaker 1: place that, like so many black churches in America, have
Speaker 1: been the center of not only cultural worship and spiritual worship,
Speaker 1: but also political organizing and in that way that the
Speaker 1: Vineyard is that on a scale you've never seen before.
Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about, you know, not just ebenez
Speaker 1: Or Baptist Church that produce Martin Luther King or any
Speaker 1: number of churches in the DC area. This is a
Speaker 1: church that draws national attention for annual political fundraising, for
Speaker 1: political strategizing. You see people who are running for governor,
Speaker 1: You see people who have been secretaries in cabinet level
Speaker 1: pians in Washington, d C. This is truly a place
Speaker 1: and the Union Chapel at the center of it for
Speaker 1: serious Black power building. Yeah. So this summer on a
Speaker 1: Sunday morning, we actually went there for a service. While
Speaker 1: the church is not it's a non denominational church, is
Speaker 1: not a black church per se, but it's going to
Speaker 1: feel like that in August, is what you said. Like
Speaker 1: it has. It has integrated leadership, and it has particularly
Speaker 1: curated programming, including Sunday morning sermons where they invite in
Speaker 1: prominent black preachers from around the country country. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: we went there. The speaker was Otis Moss, the third
Speaker 1: guy who is incredible powerful speaker. His church is Trinity
Speaker 1: United here on the south side. Ye and the same
Speaker 1: church that Obama attended for twenty years. Obama's church, maaster
Speaker 1: Jeremiah Right, became subject of some controversy during the two
Speaker 1: thousand and eight Camps Pain. Yeah, that church, and and
Speaker 1: Otis moss Is is Jeremiah Rights successor. And you know,
Speaker 1: so Otis Moss is someone that I've heard speak in
Speaker 1: Chicago several times. He's a powerful speaker, he's incredible thinker. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So here we are outside the church that morning and
Speaker 1: the sermons beginning, and we're going to do our own
Speaker 1: little call in response together. Neighbor, neighbor, Oh, neighbor, we
Speaker 1: have nothing. So he is giving a sermon and he
Speaker 1: one major part of it. He talks about going to
Speaker 1: the circus as a kid and how much he loves
Speaker 1: the circus and particularly elephants. I love everything about I
Speaker 1: love the lions, the tigers, the bears, oh my, I
Speaker 1: loved everything about the circus. But there was one particular
Speaker 1: animal that absolutely fascinated me Gia on a completely different level,
Speaker 1: and that were Those were the elephants. And he's such
Speaker 1: a great speaker, and he does this thing while he's
Speaker 1: speaking where you also sees people in the audience who
Speaker 1: he knows and he he calls out their name, so
Speaker 1: there he says Gia and you know, and it makes
Speaker 1: him feel like he's actually having a conversation with you.
Speaker 1: You're like, ga oh, yeah, you're like wakes everybody out.
Speaker 1: That's great. Yes. So then he goes on and he
Speaker 1: basically he tells this parable about in a sense of,
Speaker 1: you know, why don't the elephants stampede us and kill
Speaker 1: all of us? They're so much bigger. And his uncle
Speaker 1: points out to him that they were shackled and their
Speaker 1: trainer has now removed the shackles, but they essentially still
Speaker 1: feel like they're shackled. They still feel constrained, and they've
Speaker 1: internalized this. They're still they're still in under control. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: just to clarify that too, he makes the point that
Speaker 1: they're they're shackled from the very beginning when they're tiny
Speaker 1: and they're well, you know, for an elephant, when they're babies,
Speaker 1: and so the conditioning that takes place, you know, over
Speaker 1: years of their lives. By the time they're full grown,
Speaker 1: they're just accustomed to staying in their space. He builds
Speaker 1: sort of this to this crescendo about how we have
Speaker 1: nothing left to lose like we're in the sense we
Speaker 1: have to, you know, whatever it is to take action.
Speaker 1: You have nothing left to lose. We have nothing to
Speaker 1: lose to order to build a world for our children's children.
Speaker 1: No matter who you are, we must join together in
Speaker 1: these yet to be United States of America. Whether you're
Speaker 1: anglic Can, Agnostic, Presbyterian or Pentecostal Baptists or Buddhist Atheist
Speaker 1: or Asian Jew or Gentile, Muslim or Methodist, country or ghetto,
Speaker 1: urban or suburban Lutheran or Latino Queer or Quaker, pH
Speaker 1: D no d jail or Yale, you graduated kum lod
Speaker 1: or thank you Lord, indigenous or in remmigrant, we have
Speaker 1: nothing to lose. Fight on, struggle on, We have nothing
Speaker 1: to lose. God, bless you. How incredible is that? Yeah? Lord?
Speaker 1: Or thank you Lord. That's that's just that's incredible. Right,
Speaker 1: We've just felt this. We removed by his words on
Speaker 1: our feet, on our feet like everyone else there. I
Speaker 1: was incredibly moved by Otis Moss's speech, and I was
Speaker 1: also troubled by it, and maybe in a way that
Speaker 1: he even wanted people to be troubled. I'm not sure
Speaker 1: it was that phrase we have nothing to lose, you know.
Speaker 1: I sat there, Khalil, thinking about about all the things
Speaker 1: that I and maybe other people do have to lose,
Speaker 1: you know, and here we are incredibly privileged to be
Speaker 1: in this space, and certainly that's something that we could lose,
Speaker 1: and we could we could even choose to give up.
Speaker 1: And there's even just you know, vacation takes time, right,
Speaker 1: and so having the time to go away for a week,
Speaker 1: and the work that needs to be done in the
Speaker 1: country is so consuming and it's so demanding, and the
Speaker 1: things that are happening like COVID, right, and schools are
Speaker 1: under attack, which we talk about in another episode, like
Speaker 1: it's happening in this moment, right and right, and voter
Speaker 1: suppression is going on, and you know, these are the
Speaker 1: conversations we're actually having in this moment. So yeah, I
Speaker 1: just was sort of I was sitting with myself thinking
Speaker 1: about all the things that I could lose or even
Speaker 1: choose to give up to try to help the world,
Speaker 1: you know. And this might be this might be the
Speaker 1: white guilt part of it, but but I was thinking about,
Speaker 1: here we are on vacation, is it something that I
Speaker 1: that that I should even be giving up. You know,
Speaker 1: should I even be there? Yeah? Yeah, like white dude
Speaker 1: having his cake and eating at too, right, Yeah, because
Speaker 1: because you know, I was about to go get a
Speaker 1: hamburger afterwards and go to the beach, you know, like
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna leave. But but in that moment, I
Speaker 1: had these thoughts. Yeah, and I'm and I'm thinking of
Speaker 1: them now too. But but but yeah, you know, like
Speaker 1: we went and played tennis afterwards. Yeah. Uh. But I
Speaker 1: mean I'm glad you feel that way, you know, as
Speaker 1: a white guy whom you know has has an extra
Speaker 1: level of responsibility for your people and all the shit
Speaker 1: they do. But I think part of part of this
Speaker 1: is really about, you know, if people are mostly there
Speaker 1: for one week, ben Um, I think Otis's message is,
Speaker 1: you know, you have to take this message back home fight.
Speaker 1: Probably anyone who's listening to this isn't surprised that we
Speaker 1: we alternate pretty quickly between playfulness and seriousness, right right, yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: can I just say something about that. That's like a
Speaker 1: form of code switching, right, No, I mean part of
Speaker 1: the boat switching, I know, part of the genius. Well
Speaker 1: yes you do, but yes, coach switching is this concept that, uh,
Speaker 1: that black people have to um perform a certain kind
Speaker 1: of assimilation politics, a kind of you know, I'm not scary,
Speaker 1: I'm just like you, white person, powerful white person speak
Speaker 1: a certain way that that makes sense to white people.
Speaker 1: And so much of this episode, you know, is about
Speaker 1: how the island itself, you know, is a is a
Speaker 1: place where where people don't have to coach switch, um,
Speaker 1: they can just lean into who they are. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So what I was going to say was, uh, you
Speaker 1: know that that we you and I alternate very quickly
Speaker 1: between play and seriousness, and so it's not very surprising
Speaker 1: that for us that vacation is also a place where
Speaker 1: also doing what people might consider work, like that's actually
Speaker 1: just part of who we are and we like to
Speaker 1: do it. But that what you're saying too is right,
Speaker 1: that like, that's true for for many people in this space,
Speaker 1: that they're both on vocation and they're doing kind of
Speaker 1: socio political work at the same time. I can't say
Speaker 1: it enough that for you know, for a long time
Speaker 1: in this country, black people have had to make a
Speaker 1: choice about whether or not they pursue actual systemic change
Speaker 1: or whether they play by the rules and hopes that
Speaker 1: things will just happen somehow, particularly for professional blacks working
Speaker 1: in the private sector. This black journalist, Ellis Coas, wrote
Speaker 1: a book right at the top of the Obama administration,
Speaker 1: published in two thousand and nine, and he was responding
Speaker 1: to some evidence that black people had more positive outlooks
Speaker 1: on America and on racial progress. And so he interviewed
Speaker 1: Harvard NBA's Black Harvard NBA's and then some other young
Speaker 1: people associated with a program called a Better Chance. He
Speaker 1: wanted to get their take on race relations in the
Speaker 1: age of Obama. And at the end of this analysis,
Speaker 1: he asked those black Harvard NBA's what the top ten
Speaker 1: rules for individual success in Black America, and they gave,
Speaker 1: you know, to top nine rules were something along the
Speaker 1: lines of b hardworking, be ambitious, cultivate networks of more
Speaker 1: powerful people than yourself, you know, make sure you know
Speaker 1: your dreams are really big. And then number ten, the
Speaker 1: number ten rule for success was never talk about race
Speaker 1: or gender if you can avoid it, other than to
Speaker 1: say race or gender do not matter. Yeah, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: and so this is exactly the point. Yeah, that's exactly.
Speaker 1: This is exactly the point that this is the space
Speaker 1: where you are free to talk about that where no
Speaker 1: one is saying don't talk about those issues. It's it's
Speaker 1: you know, you're whatever those people were imagining at Harvard
Speaker 1: of like being under pressure from trying to trying to
Speaker 1: adapt and fit into a mostly white space. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: at the end, at the end, right, this is why
Speaker 1: the Island has been and continue needs to be such
Speaker 1: an important place for power building because people can be honest,
Speaker 1: they can be authentic, and they can engage in these
Speaker 1: important matters of renewal and and and strategy. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, everyone's not here to solve the world's problems,
Speaker 1: but it's certainly a place where if you opt into that,
Speaker 1: you can. Yeah, I completely agree about not just wanting
Speaker 1: that escape, but how that escape is is a way
Speaker 1: to figure out what you're going to bring back, you know,
Speaker 1: from the island to the mainland, which is both metaphor
Speaker 1: and literal in this case, right, it's both the rejuvenation,
Speaker 1: but it's actually it is actually a place of strategizing.
Speaker 1: It's a place of conversations, it's a place of ideas
Speaker 1: which which generate and and personally for me and you,
Speaker 1: you know, this time that we spend together which is
Speaker 1: filled with a lot of play, is also filled with
Speaker 1: so much discussion, and in a way, it's like a
Speaker 1: whole season of this show is sort of you know,
Speaker 1: chopped up during during that time we have together, you know,
Speaker 1: by we're building these ideas. That's right, And I think
Speaker 1: that's the beauty of the island, both both in its
Speaker 1: actual majestical nature, um, and the fact that it is
Speaker 1: an island, as you pointed out, you are off the mainland, uh,
Speaker 1: and simultaneously a place where if you want to opt
Speaker 1: in to the kind of conversations about power building, Um,
Speaker 1: you have so many occasions. Yeah. And there's something too,
Speaker 1: I mean, I imagine from many people there of seeing
Speaker 1: this alternative America. You know that that if America had,
Speaker 1: if if more black people had opportunities and the ability
Speaker 1: to grow in a certain way, that this is what
Speaker 1: the country would look like. That that figuring out how
Speaker 1: to replicate that that that this has to It can't
Speaker 1: just be here, and it can't just be for these
Speaker 1: you know three weeks that that people go in August,
Speaker 1: you know that that this has to the country needs
Speaker 1: to look like this, this needs to be our our future. Um. Well, well,
Speaker 1: the week that that we spend together there and that
Speaker 1: our family spend together has been the best week of
Speaker 1: this year so far for me. Um, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: still always the best. I'm hoping, I'm still hoping that
Speaker 1: that that, you know, the rest of the year, I
Speaker 1: might have a really high week that that tops it.
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, but but I always appreciate it.
Speaker 1: So I love you, Yeah, love you too. Some of
Speaker 1: My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries.
Speaker 1: The show is written and hosted by me Khalildbron Mohammed
Speaker 1: and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheriff
Speaker 1: Vincent and edited by Karen Shakerji. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez.
Speaker 1: Our associate editor is Keishell Williams, Our associate producer is
Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive
Speaker 1: producers are Leetal Molad and Mia la Belle. So thanks
Speaker 1: to Stanley Nelson and to Danielle Austin, because I definitely
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been going to Martha's Vineyard if it wasn't
Speaker 1: for her At Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Migliori,
Speaker 1: John Schnars, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily
Speaker 1: is by fellow chicagoan averyar Young from his amazing album Tubman.
Speaker 1: You will definitely want to check out more of his
Speaker 1: music at his website, averyaryng dot com. You can find
Speaker 1: Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin pods, and you
Speaker 1: can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm.
Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. If you
Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider becoming
Speaker 1: a Pushnick. Pushnick is a podcast subscription that offers bonus
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Speaker 1: What's What's What's the old saying from football? Not the
Speaker 1: size of the dog in the fight, the size of
Speaker 1: the fight and the dog. I said, I actually said
Speaker 1: that this morning to Jonah. We're walking to school and
Speaker 1: and and our dog ran up to a giant German
Speaker 1: shepherd and I said, you know, hey, jon it's not
Speaker 1: the size of the dog in the fight. It's the
Speaker 1: size of the fighting the dog. And I said, and
Speaker 1: our dog has neither. Hey that's good. It's good to
Speaker 1: know