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Speaker 1: Pushing. Remember that summer maybe it was maybe it was

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Speaker 1: right after we graduated from high school and we basically

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Speaker 1: did a tour of the South Side playing bid whist

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Speaker 1: at like, you know, different different people's houses. It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: We were like, yeah, this was like a summer of

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Speaker 1: being a grown up for the first time. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And even to be invited to the table, you know.

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Speaker 1: And and here we were these two kids, one white,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and and uh and you know it

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Speaker 1: it was all kind of color. It was. It was

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Speaker 1: straight up like it was straight up like white man

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Speaker 1: can't jump, like we were hustling. We were hustling. White man.

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Speaker 1: White man can't bid, right, white bi can't bid. I

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Speaker 1: love it. Yeah, so let's tell that. Let's tell tell

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Speaker 1: people what bid whist it. Bid whist is a more

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Speaker 1: advanced version of space. You have four players and two pairs,

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Speaker 1: and you bid your hand based on the number of

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Speaker 1: suits you can win. And the cool thing about bid wiss,

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Speaker 1: unlike spades, is spades is based on how many spades

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Speaker 1: you have in hand, because that's the best suit in

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Speaker 1: your hand, it dominates all the others. But in bid

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Speaker 1: it could be any suit and it creates tremendous variation,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of the action depends on bidding. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when we get together, I'm Martha's vineyard. Our two families,

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Speaker 1: uh you know, me and you and our wives Danielle

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Speaker 1: and Stephanie. We end up playing late at night most nights,

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Speaker 1: and yeah, most nights. So here here Actually we were

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Speaker 1: playing this summer and uh, I just I had to

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Speaker 1: just press record on my phone because it was getting

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Speaker 1: out of hand and I wanted a record of this.

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Speaker 1: You can't talk Sto'm talking across the board. Oh see,

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Speaker 1: this is what happened with bid. I actually learned playing

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Speaker 1: from your mom, who is as cutthroat like that. She

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Speaker 1: would hear that in not her head and be like, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: don't don't sit down at the table with me if

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Speaker 1: you're not prepared to you know, right to not only lose,

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Speaker 1: but also to be embarrassed at the same time. Don't

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Speaker 1: come to a gunfight with a knife, she would say, right, okay.

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Speaker 1: I'm Khalil Muhammad and I'm Ben Austin. We're two best friends,

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Speaker 1: one black, one white. I'm a historian and I'm a journalist.

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Speaker 1: And this is some of my best friends are in

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Speaker 1: this show. We wrestle with the challenges and the absurdities

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Speaker 1: are the deeply divided and the unequal country. And on

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Speaker 1: this episode, we're gonna take a little vacation. I think

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Speaker 1: we should talk about this magical place for our families.

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Speaker 1: Where is it. It's Martha's Vinyards, all right. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: a place where people get together and renew their energy.

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Speaker 1: They we connect with family, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: also go there for cultural reteets and for making social

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Speaker 1: change and building political power. So I think I think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot to share about the real Martha's family. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So then this TV show came out this fall, Our

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Speaker 1: Kind of People, which at least ostensibly is set at

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Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard, And our show isn't going to be really

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Speaker 1: about that TV show, but it is going to be

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Speaker 1: about Martha's Vineyard, that's right. And because the show plays

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Speaker 1: on this notion of powerful black people, Uh, you've got

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Speaker 1: denied to thinking about your own power to talk about, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but proximity to power. And I think that's that's kind

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Speaker 1: of what what happens at Martha's Vai had all kinds

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Speaker 1: of interesting people come together for vacation. Let's get on

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Speaker 1: the ferry. Let's go, Yes, we go, that's right? Whatsoll

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Speaker 1: here we come? No? How many years have we been

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Speaker 1: going to the vineyard? You know, I don't together. I

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Speaker 1: don't count. It could either it could either be five

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Speaker 1: or it could be ten. I'm not sure. Well, I

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Speaker 1: think the first trip together was back in twenty twelve,

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Speaker 1: so about a decade. I just have this mental image

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Speaker 1: of like Jonah being super tiny. I think the first

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Speaker 1: time maybe he was three Injustice was yeah, yeah, Injustice,

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Speaker 1: who's my youngest was five? Yeah. So so part of

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Speaker 1: the spending summers together for me is also seeing our

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Speaker 1: children grow up together. You know that that that that

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Speaker 1: they're cousins in this way and you know there I'm

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Speaker 1: uncle Ben, your uncle Khalil. That's right. I mean to me,

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Speaker 1: it feels like, you know the way that people put

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Speaker 1: those markers on their their closets of how tall their

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Speaker 1: their kids have gotten, that there's something over the summer

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Speaker 1: of seeing marking time by when the child graduates from

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Speaker 1: the carousel to the arcade, to going to backdoor Donuts

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Speaker 1: at midnight, yeah, backdoor donuts, yes, to then hanging out

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Speaker 1: at Ocean Park, to then like even driving to a

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Speaker 1: beach party, like you know, the old PSA. You know,

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Speaker 1: is your kid home? Right? Do you know a kid?

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Speaker 1: The answer is no, because we're on Martha's Vineyard, right,

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Speaker 1: So that's part of the magic of the place. You know,

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Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard is this place that historically has been overwhelmingly white,

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Speaker 1: from sort of upper income to very wealthy. There's different

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Speaker 1: parts of the island that white people own homes and

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Speaker 1: vacation there. But the fact of owning a home is

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Speaker 1: a big deal. It's an island after all, so it's

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Speaker 1: not easy to get to and you know, people fly

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Speaker 1: in and out of the space. Yeah, So I mean

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Speaker 1: it's a predominally white space. You know, it's mostly my

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Speaker 1: kind of people, right, yes, but for a long long time,

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Speaker 1: it's also been a place, a special place for African Americans.

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Speaker 1: And there's a place called Oak Bluffs. It is traditionally

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Speaker 1: the place where African Americans have have been living and

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Speaker 1: vacationing for more than a century. So, I man, I've

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Speaker 1: been dying to talk to you about this new show

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Speaker 1: on Fox series Our kind of People. Our kind of people,

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Speaker 1: that's right, yes, yes, our kind of people. So this

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Speaker 1: show it's on Primetime Network television, and it's about or

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Speaker 1: supposedly about Oak Bluffs. A lot of people know about,

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Speaker 1: probably most obviously because the Obama is a vacation there

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Speaker 1: for years. But I don't think this TV show is

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Speaker 1: about Martha's Venue really at all. It's it's made by

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Speaker 1: the creators of Empire, and it's kind of just a

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Speaker 1: version of Empire, not set in New York City, but

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Speaker 1: set on this make believe fantasy island. But really it's

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Speaker 1: even shot in North Carolina. Yeah, we're not going to

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Speaker 1: spoil anything about the show, but it's a soap opera

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Speaker 1: and it's super setsy, right, It's it's wildly melodramatic. You know,

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Speaker 1: beautiful people who are the upper class black echelon, and

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Speaker 1: all their scheming and machinations of triu of intrigue and

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Speaker 1: backstabbing and and like illegitimate children and who belongs to

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Speaker 1: who and who extorted who In the past, I've seen

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Speaker 1: your type for four social climbers who save their money

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Speaker 1: for summerhouse to come here in Floss when the family's

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Speaker 1: on this island, hold it down all year long. Because

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Speaker 1: we don't just have a summer fleeing with black excellence.

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Speaker 1: We are black excellence. Yeah, it's it's a total caricature

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Speaker 1: and it doesn't really have anything to do with the

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Speaker 1: actual real Martha's Vineyard the culture of Oak Bluffs insomuch

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Speaker 1: as it's a kind of class critique of you know,

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Speaker 1: a slice of black America, right Like, that's that's kind

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Speaker 1: of what the show is set up for. So so

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Speaker 1: we watch this new TV show our kind of people,

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Speaker 1: and we had such a strong reaction to it, right like,

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Speaker 1: this isn't the Martha's Vineyard that we know, Yes, exactly.

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Speaker 1: And as much as this is personal to me, it's

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Speaker 1: also really powerful. I mean it's powerful to see what

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Speaker 1: it means, you know, to not be performing politics of

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Speaker 1: respectability in front of white people and you know what

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Speaker 1: Tony Moore, us and or others would call, you know,

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Speaker 1: the white gaze. I mean, people really do get to

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Speaker 1: let their hair down, and in that space all sorts

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Speaker 1: of amazing things happen, and that makes a place really special.

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Speaker 1: I've always thought about this of the beauty and Martha's

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Speaker 1: Vineyard that it's unlike other places. It has a kind

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Speaker 1: of subtlety, even a kind of quietness, which is really

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Speaker 1: powerful to me. And my favorite spot actually is that

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Speaker 1: strip between a pond and state beach, which we know

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Speaker 1: really well. And you are both looking out over this

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Speaker 1: pond with willows in the in the sunset or the

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Speaker 1: sunrise coming over it, and then to the other side

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Speaker 1: you're looking out into the ocean and it's just kind

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Speaker 1: of stunning to me. Not in its drama. It's not dramatic,

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Speaker 1: but just to be in this place of tranquility. There's

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Speaker 1: another beach just up the street, or so to speak,

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Speaker 1: on Beach Road. It is the Inkwell, it is the

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Speaker 1: historic beach that African Americans carved out a space for

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Speaker 1: their own, and that is where the polar Bears. You

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Speaker 1: gotta like explain what are polar bears? Listen. Polar Bears

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Speaker 1: is a group of women who started out decades ago

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Speaker 1: for an early morning swim. And they started doing this

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Speaker 1: because a lot of the early black vineyarders were actually

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Speaker 1: people who worked on the island as domestics a long

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Speaker 1: time ago, and so this was an opportunity for them

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Speaker 1: to get together before they started their work day. That

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Speaker 1: evolved over the years, and then as the group and

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Speaker 1: the number of black vacationers on the vineyard and homeowners

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Speaker 1: grew over the decades, Polar Bears went from a tiny

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Speaker 1: group of women to I think Stephanie mentioned this summer

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Speaker 1: there were like one hundred and fifty or something. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: more than one hundred and fifty. It's really really special.

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Speaker 1: It's and uh, it's it's it's kind of one of

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Speaker 1: those things at the Vineyard that you can't find anywhere

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Speaker 1: else in the world. And I'd say, like, when I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about our kind of people, that TV show

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Speaker 1: and just like how high strung everyone was to sort

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Speaker 1: of cut each other's throats. Yeah, I mean that show.

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Speaker 1: You're right, it does. It does make everybody seem like

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Speaker 1: some backstabbing, conniving, evil person. But in fact, the Polar

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Speaker 1: Bears itself is so reflective of the culture of Oak

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Speaker 1: Bluffs because, as Stephanie told me, at the end of

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Speaker 1: every session, the leader, Miss Caroline, says, you know how

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Speaker 1: you feel right now before you start your day, Take

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Speaker 1: that with you when you go back to to the shore.

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Speaker 1: Spread that feeling and that love and that warmness to

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Speaker 1: everyone you encounter this day. Isn't that amazing? And then

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Speaker 1: you do it the same thing the next day. So

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Speaker 1: that's what Martha's Vineyard is so much about. You know,

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Speaker 1: there is a specific reason why we go there to

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Speaker 1: Martha's vineyard and even that part of Martha's vineyard around

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Speaker 1: Oak Bluffs, and not to somewhere that's actually much closer

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Speaker 1: to home for us, like it could be the Indian

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Speaker 1: on the Dunes, or it could be Michigan, or for you,

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Speaker 1: it could be it could be the Jersey Shore. And

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Speaker 1: that reason is race, jan That's that's that's maybe a

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Speaker 1: but it is. It is this history there of race. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean, I'll just say, you know, Stephanie and

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Speaker 1: I over the years have gone on honeymoons and anniversary trips,

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Speaker 1: and I stopped. You've gone on one more than one honeymoon. Well, well,

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Speaker 1: not exactly what you give my point anniversary stuff, okay,

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Speaker 1: And this is my point about the difference between going

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Speaker 1: to Jamaica or some other place like in Jamaica, which

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Speaker 1: we've been a bunch of times. Um, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: a black country, and everybody who works in these resorts

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Speaker 1: is black, but all the vacationers are white. And you

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Speaker 1: can count on one or two hands a number of

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Speaker 1: black people who are actually there on vacation. And so

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Speaker 1: I just you know, stopped enjoying it as much as

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Speaker 1: I could, because you know, Stephanie would want to dance,

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Speaker 1: like you know, at the karaoke bar, and I'd be like,

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Speaker 1: we're the only black people dancing. All the white people

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Speaker 1: are looking at us. It's just uncomfortable. Yeah, And so

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Speaker 1: the vineyard couldn't be more different. I mean, it is

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Speaker 1: everything from being able to completely be yourself. There is

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Speaker 1: no white gaze. Uh, there are tons of white people around,

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Speaker 1: but it's as close to like the experience of equality,

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Speaker 1: meaning that no one's looking at anybody like why are

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Speaker 1: you here? You don't belong here. It is wonderful for

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Speaker 1: guests to be alone and help and host their friends

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Speaker 1: and simultaneously like the best possible family vacation. Hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: I've been on vacation too, to places without you and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, even as a kid going on vacates with

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Speaker 1: my family, it turned out they were they were mostly

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Speaker 1: white spaces. You know that that is kind of the

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Speaker 1: world in which we i it's it's it's America, and

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Speaker 1: it's it's vacation places around the world, right, and so

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Speaker 1: so that really is something unique about going to Martha's

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Speaker 1: Vineyard in August at least to this part of the island. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's the thing. The truth is that what makes the

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Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard unique is that it isn't like a form

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Speaker 1: of segregated not at all. Really is still in this

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Speaker 1: place of tremendous integration. Let's talk some about how Oak

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Speaker 1: Bluffs came to be. There's a documentary by Stanley Nelson

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Speaker 1: called The Place of Our Own, which he made in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and four, and his film feels to me

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Speaker 1: like a counterpoint to our kind of people to that

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Speaker 1: TV show we were talking about at the beginning of

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Speaker 1: the episode. The documentary has real people in it and

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Speaker 1: it's so grounded in a sense of place. Yeah, yes,

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Speaker 1: I think for me, M. Stanley Nelson is is probably

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Speaker 1: the most prolific and award winning documentarian period and as

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Speaker 1: an African American, his content has been just disremarkable. And

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Speaker 1: so I've known Stanley Nelson for a long time. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's done a lot of stuff at the Schaumberg Center.

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Speaker 1: So I called him up and I wanted to ask

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Speaker 1: him about this new TV show, but I also wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask him about the history of Martha's Vineyard. He's

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Speaker 1: been gone there for sixty five years. Oh, you're being

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Speaker 1: the journalist exactly. You know, we historians do do oral history.

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Speaker 1: My friend. Oh my god, this place, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's just an incredible place and it's and it's a

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Speaker 1: place where because black people have been going there, you know,

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Speaker 1: since the eighteen hundreds, right, black people have for a

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Speaker 1: whole And he said essentially that sometime in the late

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Speaker 1: nineteenth century, African Americans had been there as domestics working

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Speaker 1: for white property owners, were working in their homes, doing

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Speaker 1: some of the domestic work that we find all over

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Speaker 1: America in the nineteenth century. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: that comes as a result of that is the ability

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Speaker 1: to buy a very inexpensive land and property, tiny little houses,

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Speaker 1: some of them these little cottages that to this day

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Speaker 1: are famous, um in Oak Bluffs as these little gingerbread

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Speaker 1: houses that people, you know, sometimes rent. So yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean there there are lots of cultural depictions, and most

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Speaker 1: of them play to the kind of internal class politics

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Speaker 1: of Black America that there is this upper crust elitist

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Speaker 1: group of people and the vineyard is their playground. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And you know, we see that in in a lot

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Speaker 1: of different versions of this. But you know in different

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Speaker 1: in different ways. The Inkwell from nineteen ninety four. Love

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Speaker 1: that film, but by the end of vacation you'll learn

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Speaker 1: all the right moves yet at the eg Well. And

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Speaker 1: and also Jaws, right, Jaws, Jaws, that's right, the most famous.

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Speaker 1: My daughter and I just watched Jaws. She's taking a

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Speaker 1: class and filmmaking, and she was like, let's try to

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Speaker 1: count the black people in it. And there was like

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Speaker 1: it was like five, you know, every beach scene, everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's right. What a great film. And film Jaws all

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Speaker 1: over Martha's Vineyard. Yeah, that's right. And then there was

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Speaker 1: this famous novel set at Martha's Vineyard, The Wedding by

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Speaker 1: Dorothy West. And there's there's an Oprah mini series produced

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Speaker 1: by Oprah Winfrey in nineteen ninety eight. Now, how in

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Speaker 1: heaven for me could Eddie Banish to possibly read her

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Speaker 1: precious cottage to someone He definitely comes from one of

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Speaker 1: the viral elis and just a word. Dorothy West ended

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Speaker 1: up spending fifty years on the vineyard and wanted to

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Speaker 1: tell this mid century story about basically class and skin

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Speaker 1: color on the island and wrote The Wedding. She's part

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Speaker 1: of this community of black women homeowners and to to

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Speaker 1: this very day they do social service, they do philanthropic

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Speaker 1: things and do fundraisers, but they're part of kind of

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Speaker 1: the core of the black community of of of oak Bluffs. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and early on, I mean I saw this as well,

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Speaker 1: that oak Bluffs was also in the Green Book, which

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Speaker 1: was a way to tell black people where it was

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Speaker 1: safe to travel, where they could actually they could actually

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Speaker 1: like you know, you can rent in this cottage and

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Speaker 1: this in here, and you can come here. And so

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Speaker 1: this sort of pattern of people coming and more and

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Speaker 1: more people coming and following starts to develop. And at

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Speaker 1: the heart of this black community was this beach called

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Speaker 1: the Inkwell, it's actually a tiny, tiny part of the

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Speaker 1: coast of beaches that that Martha's Vineyard provides, but it

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Speaker 1: still is the kind of center of gravity for the

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Speaker 1: black community that has just blossomed and bloomed. And you

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Speaker 1: know where once it was property owners and their children

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Speaker 1: and generations of those folks. Now visitors don't just come

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Speaker 1: from Boston or New York. They come from Chicago, like

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Speaker 1: the Austins, they come from Detroit, they come from California,

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Speaker 1: they come from Houston, and it is just you know,

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Speaker 1: ballooned with energy and excitement and culture. Even in August,

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Speaker 1: at the height of this moment of when it's its

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Speaker 1: most the black visitors are at their peak. The island

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Speaker 1: as a whole is still largely white, like beyond Beyond

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Speaker 1: Oak Bluffs, like you know, Black Dog Cafe, Nantucket red

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Speaker 1: kind of place. And there's something about that, like this

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Speaker 1: part of Martha's Vineyard during August, which feels like a

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Speaker 1: what if about America? Like what if America was not

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Speaker 1: racist and segregated in the way that it is right

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Speaker 1: and you would experience spaces like this. Yeah, for me

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Speaker 1: is like both insider and outsider, Like, so my wife

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Speaker 1: is black and my kids are biracial, and they they

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Speaker 1: sort of revel in this place. Yeah, it feels really

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Speaker 1: it still really is such a remarkable place and unlike

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Speaker 1: really any other place I've been. But I will say

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Speaker 1: professionally it's a play swear. I mean literally, there's one

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Speaker 1: degree of separation between me and folks that I either

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Speaker 1: work with or no. And I think this is a

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Speaker 1: relatively recent phenomenon in the last fifteen years or so,

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Speaker 1: that there are all these sort of cultural events that

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Speaker 1: are happening there over this month as well. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: film festivals, there's our shows, there's book talks. You know,

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Speaker 1: people are giving lectures. So when we come back, let's

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Speaker 1: talk more about that, because I think that the ways

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Speaker 1: that people there want to engage socially and politically while

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Speaker 1: they're on vacation. Like you just said, it's not just

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Speaker 1: an escape to go there, but it's also a way

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Speaker 1: to organize and strategize and figure out how to deal

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Speaker 1: with the real world with racism and injustice, all the

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Speaker 1: things that are going back on what you could say

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Speaker 1: is the mainland. Yeah, we'll talk about what that looks

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Speaker 1: like up close. We were just starting to talk about

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Speaker 1: all these cultural events in Martha's Vineyard. You know, they

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Speaker 1: happen all over the island, but one of the special

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Speaker 1: places where they happened is a church called Union Chapel.

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Speaker 1: And it's this beautiful church built in something like eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy eighteen seventy one. It is shape like an octagon.

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Speaker 1: It's mostly wood. It has these high risers. In addition

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Speaker 1: to pews, it also has a balcony that goes around

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Speaker 1: I wrap around balcony on three sides. It has open

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Speaker 1: doors on each side. There's no air conditioning, so like

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Speaker 1: it's just letting air in and every Sunday beautiful in

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Speaker 1: that way. Four sides of it open up with two

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Speaker 1: double doors, and it's on a little rise, like on

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Speaker 1: a tiny little hill, so it feels like it's elevated.

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Speaker 1: It's very it feels like a place of a reflection. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so in some ways it's like the spiritual home of

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Speaker 1: the black community during the high season of all I guess, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a beautiful way to put it. And we end

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Speaker 1: up going there a lot as well for all kinds

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Speaker 1: of events, right, And I just have to say this,

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Speaker 1: look the first time I saw Stacey Abrams with that

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Speaker 1: Union chapel. This first time, says Stacey Abrams, being the

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Speaker 1: black woman who ran for governor of Georgia. So she

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Speaker 1: lost in a controversial election a few years ago, but

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Speaker 1: she's also helped to lead Georgia in this most recent

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Speaker 1: election that produced Senator Warnock. I saw and met Keisha

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Speaker 1: Lance Bottoms there for the first time. This is a

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Speaker 1: place that, like so many black churches in America, have

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Speaker 1: been the center of not only cultural worship and spiritual worship,

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Speaker 1: but also political organizing and in that way that the

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Speaker 1: Vineyard is that on a scale you've never seen before.

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Speaker 1: I mean we're talking about, you know, not just ebenez

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Speaker 1: Or Baptist Church that produce Martin Luther King or any

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Speaker 1: number of churches in the DC area. This is a

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Speaker 1: church that draws national attention for annual political fundraising, for

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Speaker 1: political strategizing. You see people who are running for governor,

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Speaker 1: You see people who have been secretaries in cabinet level

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Speaker 1: pians in Washington, d C. This is truly a place

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Speaker 1: and the Union Chapel at the center of it for

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Speaker 1: serious Black power building. Yeah. So this summer on a

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Speaker 1: Sunday morning, we actually went there for a service. While

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Speaker 1: the church is not it's a non denominational church, is

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Speaker 1: not a black church per se, but it's going to

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Speaker 1: feel like that in August, is what you said. Like

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Speaker 1: it has. It has integrated leadership, and it has particularly

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Speaker 1: curated programming, including Sunday morning sermons where they invite in

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Speaker 1: prominent black preachers from around the country country. Yeah, so

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Speaker 1: we went there. The speaker was Otis Moss, the third

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Speaker 1: guy who is incredible powerful speaker. His church is Trinity

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Speaker 1: United here on the south side. Ye and the same

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Speaker 1: church that Obama attended for twenty years. Obama's church, maaster

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Speaker 1: Jeremiah Right, became subject of some controversy during the two

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Speaker 1: thousand and eight Camps Pain. Yeah, that church, and and

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Speaker 1: Otis moss Is is Jeremiah Rights successor. And you know,

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Speaker 1: so Otis Moss is someone that I've heard speak in

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Speaker 1: Chicago several times. He's a powerful speaker, he's incredible thinker. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So here we are outside the church that morning and

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Speaker 1: the sermons beginning, and we're going to do our own

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Speaker 1: little call in response together. Neighbor, neighbor, Oh, neighbor, we

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Speaker 1: have nothing. So he is giving a sermon and he

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Speaker 1: one major part of it. He talks about going to

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Speaker 1: the circus as a kid and how much he loves

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Speaker 1: the circus and particularly elephants. I love everything about I

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Speaker 1: love the lions, the tigers, the bears, oh my, I

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Speaker 1: loved everything about the circus. But there was one particular

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Speaker 1: animal that absolutely fascinated me Gia on a completely different level,

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Speaker 1: and that were Those were the elephants. And he's such

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Speaker 1: a great speaker, and he does this thing while he's

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Speaker 1: speaking where you also sees people in the audience who

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Speaker 1: he knows and he he calls out their name, so

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00:24:11,796 --> 00:24:14,076
Speaker 1: there he says Gia and you know, and it makes

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Speaker 1: him feel like he's actually having a conversation with you.

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Speaker 1: You're like, ga oh, yeah, you're like wakes everybody out.

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Speaker 1: That's great. Yes. So then he goes on and he

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Speaker 1: basically he tells this parable about in a sense of,

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Speaker 1: you know, why don't the elephants stampede us and kill

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Speaker 1: all of us? They're so much bigger. And his uncle

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Speaker 1: points out to him that they were shackled and their

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Speaker 1: trainer has now removed the shackles, but they essentially still

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Speaker 1: feel like they're shackled. They still feel constrained, and they've

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Speaker 1: internalized this. They're still they're still in under control. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: just to clarify that too, he makes the point that

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Speaker 1: they're they're shackled from the very beginning when they're tiny

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Speaker 1: and they're well, you know, for an elephant, when they're babies,

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Speaker 1: and so the conditioning that takes place, you know, over

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Speaker 1: years of their lives. By the time they're full grown,

423
00:25:02,036 --> 00:25:04,876
Speaker 1: they're just accustomed to staying in their space. He builds

424
00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:09,276
Speaker 1: sort of this to this crescendo about how we have

425
00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:12,116
Speaker 1: nothing left to lose like we're in the sense we

426
00:25:12,196 --> 00:25:15,116
Speaker 1: have to, you know, whatever it is to take action.

427
00:25:15,436 --> 00:25:18,476
Speaker 1: You have nothing left to lose. We have nothing to

428
00:25:18,556 --> 00:25:22,516
Speaker 1: lose to order to build a world for our children's children.

429
00:25:22,756 --> 00:25:26,596
Speaker 1: No matter who you are, we must join together in

430
00:25:26,636 --> 00:25:30,156
Speaker 1: these yet to be United States of America. Whether you're

431
00:25:30,236 --> 00:25:35,876
Speaker 1: anglic Can, Agnostic, Presbyterian or Pentecostal Baptists or Buddhist Atheist

432
00:25:35,996 --> 00:25:40,636
Speaker 1: or Asian Jew or Gentile, Muslim or Methodist, country or ghetto,

433
00:25:40,956 --> 00:25:46,196
Speaker 1: urban or suburban Lutheran or Latino Queer or Quaker, pH

434
00:25:46,356 --> 00:25:50,676
Speaker 1: D no d jail or Yale, you graduated kum lod

435
00:25:50,996 --> 00:25:54,596
Speaker 1: or thank you Lord, indigenous or in remmigrant, we have

436
00:25:54,756 --> 00:25:59,076
Speaker 1: nothing to lose. Fight on, struggle on, We have nothing

437
00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:07,596
Speaker 1: to lose. God, bless you. How incredible is that? Yeah? Lord?

438
00:26:07,836 --> 00:26:11,316
Speaker 1: Or thank you Lord. That's that's just that's incredible. Right,

439
00:26:11,476 --> 00:26:14,276
Speaker 1: We've just felt this. We removed by his words on

440
00:26:14,276 --> 00:26:16,676
Speaker 1: our feet, on our feet like everyone else there. I

441
00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:20,396
Speaker 1: was incredibly moved by Otis Moss's speech, and I was

442
00:26:20,436 --> 00:26:22,836
Speaker 1: also troubled by it, and maybe in a way that

443
00:26:22,876 --> 00:26:24,836
Speaker 1: he even wanted people to be troubled. I'm not sure

444
00:26:25,516 --> 00:26:28,196
Speaker 1: it was that phrase we have nothing to lose, you know.

445
00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:33,636
Speaker 1: I sat there, Khalil, thinking about about all the things

446
00:26:33,676 --> 00:26:36,276
Speaker 1: that I and maybe other people do have to lose,

447
00:26:36,756 --> 00:26:39,756
Speaker 1: you know, and here we are incredibly privileged to be

448
00:26:39,836 --> 00:26:44,316
Speaker 1: in this space, and certainly that's something that we could lose,

449
00:26:44,516 --> 00:26:46,556
Speaker 1: and we could we could even choose to give up.

450
00:26:47,996 --> 00:26:51,236
Speaker 1: And there's even just you know, vacation takes time, right,

451
00:26:51,676 --> 00:26:54,676
Speaker 1: and so having the time to go away for a week,

452
00:26:55,196 --> 00:26:57,596
Speaker 1: and the work that needs to be done in the

453
00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:01,916
Speaker 1: country is so consuming and it's so demanding, and the

454
00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:05,356
Speaker 1: things that are happening like COVID, right, and schools are

455
00:27:05,436 --> 00:27:08,596
Speaker 1: under attack, which we talk about in another episode, like

456
00:27:08,636 --> 00:27:13,116
Speaker 1: it's happening in this moment, right and right, and voter

457
00:27:13,196 --> 00:27:15,236
Speaker 1: suppression is going on, and you know, these are the

458
00:27:15,276 --> 00:27:18,636
Speaker 1: conversations we're actually having in this moment. So yeah, I

459
00:27:18,716 --> 00:27:21,876
Speaker 1: just was sort of I was sitting with myself thinking

460
00:27:21,916 --> 00:27:25,956
Speaker 1: about all the things that I could lose or even

461
00:27:26,036 --> 00:27:30,676
Speaker 1: choose to give up to try to help the world,

462
00:27:31,196 --> 00:27:33,356
Speaker 1: you know. And this might be this might be the

463
00:27:33,996 --> 00:27:36,996
Speaker 1: white guilt part of it, but but I was thinking about,

464
00:27:37,276 --> 00:27:40,596
Speaker 1: here we are on vacation, is it something that I

465
00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:43,196
Speaker 1: that that I should even be giving up. You know,

466
00:27:44,156 --> 00:27:47,636
Speaker 1: should I even be there? Yeah? Yeah, like white dude

467
00:27:47,676 --> 00:27:50,956
Speaker 1: having his cake and eating at too, right, Yeah, because

468
00:27:50,956 --> 00:27:52,356
Speaker 1: because you know, I was about to go get a

469
00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:55,356
Speaker 1: hamburger afterwards and go to the beach, you know, like

470
00:27:55,476 --> 00:27:59,036
Speaker 1: I wasn't gonna leave. But but in that moment, I

471
00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:01,436
Speaker 1: had these thoughts. Yeah, and I'm and I'm thinking of

472
00:28:01,436 --> 00:28:04,756
Speaker 1: them now too. But but but yeah, you know, like

473
00:28:04,956 --> 00:28:10,116
Speaker 1: we went and played tennis afterwards. Yeah. Uh. But I

474
00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:12,796
Speaker 1: mean I'm glad you feel that way, you know, as

475
00:28:12,836 --> 00:28:16,556
Speaker 1: a white guy whom you know has has an extra

476
00:28:17,516 --> 00:28:20,276
Speaker 1: level of responsibility for your people and all the shit

477
00:28:20,396 --> 00:28:24,196
Speaker 1: they do. But I think part of part of this

478
00:28:24,476 --> 00:28:27,396
Speaker 1: is really about, you know, if people are mostly there

479
00:28:27,396 --> 00:28:30,916
Speaker 1: for one week, ben Um, I think Otis's message is,

480
00:28:31,396 --> 00:28:34,756
Speaker 1: you know, you have to take this message back home fight.

481
00:28:55,556 --> 00:28:59,476
Speaker 1: Probably anyone who's listening to this isn't surprised that we

482
00:28:59,476 --> 00:29:05,836
Speaker 1: we alternate pretty quickly between playfulness and seriousness, right right, yeah, Well,

483
00:29:06,036 --> 00:29:07,756
Speaker 1: can I just say something about that. That's like a

484
00:29:07,756 --> 00:29:11,476
Speaker 1: form of code switching, right, No, I mean part of

485
00:29:11,476 --> 00:29:14,956
Speaker 1: the boat switching, I know, part of the genius. Well

486
00:29:15,396 --> 00:29:20,436
Speaker 1: yes you do, but yes, coach switching is this concept that, uh,

487
00:29:20,556 --> 00:29:24,716
Speaker 1: that black people have to um perform a certain kind

488
00:29:24,716 --> 00:29:28,636
Speaker 1: of assimilation politics, a kind of you know, I'm not scary,

489
00:29:28,756 --> 00:29:31,836
Speaker 1: I'm just like you, white person, powerful white person speak

490
00:29:31,836 --> 00:29:34,876
Speaker 1: a certain way that that makes sense to white people.

491
00:29:35,276 --> 00:29:38,636
Speaker 1: And so much of this episode, you know, is about

492
00:29:38,716 --> 00:29:42,076
Speaker 1: how the island itself, you know, is a is a

493
00:29:42,116 --> 00:29:45,516
Speaker 1: place where where people don't have to coach switch, um,

494
00:29:45,716 --> 00:29:49,676
Speaker 1: they can just lean into who they are. Yeah. Yeah,

495
00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:52,636
Speaker 1: So what I was going to say was, uh, you

496
00:29:52,676 --> 00:29:55,676
Speaker 1: know that that we you and I alternate very quickly

497
00:29:55,836 --> 00:30:00,156
Speaker 1: between play and seriousness, and so it's not very surprising

498
00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:02,916
Speaker 1: that for us that vacation is also a place where

499
00:30:02,956 --> 00:30:06,716
Speaker 1: also doing what people might consider work, like that's actually

500
00:30:06,756 --> 00:30:08,276
Speaker 1: just part of who we are and we like to

501
00:30:08,316 --> 00:30:10,676
Speaker 1: do it. But that what you're saying too is right,

502
00:30:10,756 --> 00:30:14,436
Speaker 1: that like, that's true for for many people in this space,

503
00:30:14,716 --> 00:30:17,236
Speaker 1: that they're both on vocation and they're doing kind of

504
00:30:17,396 --> 00:30:20,316
Speaker 1: socio political work at the same time. I can't say

505
00:30:20,316 --> 00:30:24,316
Speaker 1: it enough that for you know, for a long time

506
00:30:24,556 --> 00:30:26,836
Speaker 1: in this country, black people have had to make a

507
00:30:26,916 --> 00:30:31,116
Speaker 1: choice about whether or not they pursue actual systemic change

508
00:30:31,556 --> 00:30:34,356
Speaker 1: or whether they play by the rules and hopes that

509
00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:38,516
Speaker 1: things will just happen somehow, particularly for professional blacks working

510
00:30:38,516 --> 00:30:43,356
Speaker 1: in the private sector. This black journalist, Ellis Coas, wrote

511
00:30:43,396 --> 00:30:45,596
Speaker 1: a book right at the top of the Obama administration,

512
00:30:46,316 --> 00:30:48,716
Speaker 1: published in two thousand and nine, and he was responding

513
00:30:48,756 --> 00:30:52,276
Speaker 1: to some evidence that black people had more positive outlooks

514
00:30:52,316 --> 00:30:56,236
Speaker 1: on America and on racial progress. And so he interviewed

515
00:30:57,316 --> 00:31:00,996
Speaker 1: Harvard NBA's Black Harvard NBA's and then some other young

516
00:31:01,036 --> 00:31:03,636
Speaker 1: people associated with a program called a Better Chance. He

517
00:31:03,676 --> 00:31:06,236
Speaker 1: wanted to get their take on race relations in the

518
00:31:06,276 --> 00:31:09,436
Speaker 1: age of Obama. And at the end of this analysis,

519
00:31:09,756 --> 00:31:13,436
Speaker 1: he asked those black Harvard NBA's what the top ten

520
00:31:13,516 --> 00:31:17,876
Speaker 1: rules for individual success in Black America, and they gave,

521
00:31:18,116 --> 00:31:21,316
Speaker 1: you know, to top nine rules were something along the

522
00:31:21,356 --> 00:31:26,996
Speaker 1: lines of b hardworking, be ambitious, cultivate networks of more

523
00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:29,956
Speaker 1: powerful people than yourself, you know, make sure you know

524
00:31:30,036 --> 00:31:32,876
Speaker 1: your dreams are really big. And then number ten, the

525
00:31:32,996 --> 00:31:38,156
Speaker 1: number ten rule for success was never talk about race

526
00:31:38,436 --> 00:31:41,036
Speaker 1: or gender if you can avoid it, other than to

527
00:31:41,156 --> 00:31:44,556
Speaker 1: say race or gender do not matter. Yeah, yeah, that's

528
00:31:44,596 --> 00:31:48,116
Speaker 1: and so this is exactly the point. Yeah, that's exactly.

529
00:31:48,316 --> 00:31:51,156
Speaker 1: This is exactly the point that this is the space

530
00:31:51,396 --> 00:31:53,436
Speaker 1: where you are free to talk about that where no

531
00:31:53,436 --> 00:31:56,236
Speaker 1: one is saying don't talk about those issues. It's it's

532
00:31:56,316 --> 00:31:59,396
Speaker 1: you know, you're whatever those people were imagining at Harvard

533
00:31:59,436 --> 00:32:02,556
Speaker 1: of like being under pressure from trying to trying to

534
00:32:02,596 --> 00:32:05,356
Speaker 1: adapt and fit into a mostly white space. Yeah, so

535
00:32:05,396 --> 00:32:07,116
Speaker 1: at the end, at the end, right, this is why

536
00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:09,836
Speaker 1: the Island has been and continue needs to be such

537
00:32:09,836 --> 00:32:13,476
Speaker 1: an important place for power building because people can be honest,

538
00:32:13,516 --> 00:32:17,236
Speaker 1: they can be authentic, and they can engage in these

539
00:32:17,276 --> 00:32:22,116
Speaker 1: important matters of renewal and and and strategy. I mean,

540
00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:24,716
Speaker 1: you know, everyone's not here to solve the world's problems,

541
00:32:24,796 --> 00:32:27,236
Speaker 1: but it's certainly a place where if you opt into that,

542
00:32:27,276 --> 00:32:31,476
Speaker 1: you can. Yeah, I completely agree about not just wanting

543
00:32:31,476 --> 00:32:37,516
Speaker 1: that escape, but how that escape is is a way

544
00:32:37,756 --> 00:32:40,396
Speaker 1: to figure out what you're going to bring back, you know,

545
00:32:40,476 --> 00:32:42,996
Speaker 1: from the island to the mainland, which is both metaphor

546
00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:46,036
Speaker 1: and literal in this case, right, it's both the rejuvenation,

547
00:32:46,076 --> 00:32:49,076
Speaker 1: but it's actually it is actually a place of strategizing.

548
00:32:49,116 --> 00:32:52,156
Speaker 1: It's a place of conversations, it's a place of ideas

549
00:32:53,036 --> 00:32:56,676
Speaker 1: which which generate and and personally for me and you,

550
00:32:56,676 --> 00:32:58,676
Speaker 1: you know, this time that we spend together which is

551
00:32:58,716 --> 00:33:01,316
Speaker 1: filled with a lot of play, is also filled with

552
00:33:01,396 --> 00:33:05,716
Speaker 1: so much discussion, and in a way, it's like a

553
00:33:05,796 --> 00:33:08,676
Speaker 1: whole season of this show is sort of you know,

554
00:33:09,196 --> 00:33:12,956
Speaker 1: chopped up during during that time we have together, you know,

555
00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:15,956
Speaker 1: by we're building these ideas. That's right, And I think

556
00:33:16,036 --> 00:33:18,916
Speaker 1: that's the beauty of the island, both both in its

557
00:33:18,996 --> 00:33:23,636
Speaker 1: actual majestical nature, um, and the fact that it is

558
00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:28,036
Speaker 1: an island, as you pointed out, you are off the mainland, uh,

559
00:33:28,076 --> 00:33:30,956
Speaker 1: and simultaneously a place where if you want to opt

560
00:33:31,036 --> 00:33:36,316
Speaker 1: in to the kind of conversations about power building, Um,

561
00:33:36,396 --> 00:33:40,236
Speaker 1: you have so many occasions. Yeah. And there's something too,

562
00:33:40,276 --> 00:33:43,596
Speaker 1: I mean, I imagine from many people there of seeing

563
00:33:43,836 --> 00:33:49,076
Speaker 1: this alternative America. You know that that if America had,

564
00:33:49,236 --> 00:33:52,956
Speaker 1: if if more black people had opportunities and the ability

565
00:33:52,956 --> 00:33:54,876
Speaker 1: to grow in a certain way, that this is what

566
00:33:54,916 --> 00:33:58,876
Speaker 1: the country would look like. That that figuring out how

567
00:33:59,196 --> 00:34:02,436
Speaker 1: to replicate that that that this has to It can't

568
00:34:02,476 --> 00:34:04,956
Speaker 1: just be here, and it can't just be for these

569
00:34:05,156 --> 00:34:07,396
Speaker 1: you know three weeks that that people go in August,

570
00:34:07,516 --> 00:34:10,636
Speaker 1: you know that that this has to the country needs

571
00:34:10,636 --> 00:34:14,956
Speaker 1: to look like this, this needs to be our our future. Um. Well, well,

572
00:34:15,276 --> 00:34:18,316
Speaker 1: the week that that we spend together there and that

573
00:34:18,356 --> 00:34:21,116
Speaker 1: our family spend together has been the best week of

574
00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:24,676
Speaker 1: this year so far for me. Um, you know, I'm

575
00:34:24,676 --> 00:34:27,236
Speaker 1: still always the best. I'm hoping, I'm still hoping that

576
00:34:27,236 --> 00:34:29,156
Speaker 1: that that, you know, the rest of the year, I

577
00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:31,236
Speaker 1: might have a really high week that that tops it.

578
00:34:31,316 --> 00:34:34,276
Speaker 1: But uh, you know, but but I always appreciate it.

579
00:34:34,356 --> 00:34:39,316
Speaker 1: So I love you, Yeah, love you too. Some of

580
00:34:39,356 --> 00:34:42,756
Speaker 1: My Best Friends Are is a production of Pushkin Industries.

581
00:34:43,076 --> 00:34:46,436
Speaker 1: The show is written and hosted by me Khalildbron Mohammed

582
00:34:46,556 --> 00:34:50,036
Speaker 1: and my best friend Ben Austin. It's produced by Sheriff

583
00:34:50,116 --> 00:34:55,356
Speaker 1: Vincent and edited by Karen Shakerji. Our engineer is Martin Gonzalez.

584
00:34:55,796 --> 00:34:59,956
Speaker 1: Our associate editor is Keishell Williams, Our associate producer is

585
00:35:00,036 --> 00:35:04,996
Speaker 1: Lucy Sullivan, and our showrunner is Sasha Matthias. Our executive

586
00:35:05,036 --> 00:35:09,636
Speaker 1: producers are Leetal Molad and Mia la Belle. So thanks

587
00:35:09,636 --> 00:35:13,876
Speaker 1: to Stanley Nelson and to Danielle Austin, because I definitely

588
00:35:13,876 --> 00:35:15,796
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been going to Martha's Vineyard if it wasn't

589
00:35:15,836 --> 00:35:20,116
Speaker 1: for her At Pushkin. Thanks to Heather Faine, Carly Migliori,

590
00:35:20,516 --> 00:35:24,596
Speaker 1: John Schnars, and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily

591
00:35:24,876 --> 00:35:28,916
Speaker 1: is by fellow chicagoan averyar Young from his amazing album Tubman.

592
00:35:29,356 --> 00:35:31,036
Speaker 1: You will definitely want to check out more of his

593
00:35:31,196 --> 00:35:35,436
Speaker 1: music at his website, averyaryng dot com. You can find

594
00:35:35,476 --> 00:35:38,996
Speaker 1: Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin pods, and you

595
00:35:38,996 --> 00:35:42,276
Speaker 1: can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm.

596
00:35:42,316 --> 00:35:46,316
Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,

597
00:35:46,516 --> 00:35:50,676
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you like to listen. If you

598
00:35:50,756 --> 00:35:54,796
Speaker 1: love this show and others from Pushkin Industries, consider becoming

599
00:35:54,916 --> 00:35:59,796
Speaker 1: a Pushnick. Pushnick is a podcast subscription that offers bonus

600
00:35:59,836 --> 00:36:04,316
Speaker 1: content and uninterrupted listening for four dollars in ninety nine

601
00:36:04,316 --> 00:36:08,996
Speaker 1: cents a month. Look for Pushnick exclusively on Apple podcast subscription.

602
00:36:31,276 --> 00:36:33,796
Speaker 1: What's What's What's the old saying from football? Not the

603
00:36:33,836 --> 00:36:36,036
Speaker 1: size of the dog in the fight, the size of

604
00:36:36,076 --> 00:36:38,556
Speaker 1: the fight and the dog. I said, I actually said

605
00:36:38,596 --> 00:36:41,196
Speaker 1: that this morning to Jonah. We're walking to school and

606
00:36:41,196 --> 00:36:43,436
Speaker 1: and and our dog ran up to a giant German

607
00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:46,716
Speaker 1: shepherd and I said, you know, hey, jon it's not

608
00:36:46,796 --> 00:36:48,236
Speaker 1: the size of the dog in the fight. It's the

609
00:36:48,276 --> 00:36:50,156
Speaker 1: size of the fighting the dog. And I said, and

610
00:36:50,196 --> 00:36:55,276
Speaker 1: our dog has neither. Hey that's good. It's good to

611
00:36:55,316 --> 00:36:55,396
Speaker 1: know