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Speaker 1: Fellow Ridiculous Historians, Welcome to this week's classic I am

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Speaker 1: the bullen You or Noel Brown? Sir? Yes? Do you

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Speaker 1: do you enjoy books? Jeez? Put me on the spot,

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Speaker 1: why don't you?

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Speaker 2: I admittedly have struggled in recent years, just due to

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Speaker 2: the nature of our job to like really throw myself

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Speaker 2: into a good book.

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Speaker 1: I do a lot of audio books.

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Speaker 2: I'm very good at consuming and retaining things, you know, auditorily.

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Speaker 2: But man, this episode is really making me not take

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Speaker 2: for granted the right to possess and read a book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I'm Max Williams. By the way, I like books too. Yeah, okay,

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Speaker 1: all right, he is a real reader. All right, Max?

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Speaker 1: Do you recall this episode from twenty eighteen?

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Speaker 4: No, I didn't work on the show until twenty twenty one.

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Speaker 4: We did do a similar two part episode about when

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Speaker 4: scientists were persecuted. Despite being right, I'm assuing there's gonna

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Speaker 4: be a little crossover between that and this episode.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and so, without further ado, the Three Times Society

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Speaker 1: refused to accept new books on science. Ridiculous History is

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Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. Well. Well, well, we're finally getting

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Speaker 1: to an episode that we have been looking forward to

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Speaker 1: for a long long time. Today we're doing banned books.

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Speaker 1: That's right, you two, Aerosmith, the Story of the Talking Heads,

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Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones. You talking about Ben Nol. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about today's episode, folks. Let's see what you did. I

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Speaker 1: had to get rid of this joke immediately. Then you're

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Speaker 1: a fool. I love you. Welcome to Ridiculous History, folks.

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Speaker 1: We promised that the rest of the jokes you will

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Speaker 1: hear will be at least better than the one we

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Speaker 1: opened with.

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Speaker 2: That's how you do it. You set the bar low

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Speaker 2: and then everything is just cake. After that, everything is

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Speaker 2: just bonus icing. That's the way you and I approach

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Speaker 2: a lot of things, man, bonus icing. Yes, And speaking

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Speaker 2: of bonuses, we are, as always immensely privileged to have

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Speaker 2: our super producer Casey Pegram with us today. And you know,

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Speaker 2: jokes aside, this, this is a fascinating episode. And this

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Speaker 2: is a little bit like a list for us.

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Speaker 1: Sort of a listical. What does a list make? Three?

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Speaker 1: Three is the minimum number require to make a list,

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Speaker 1: which is a rule I agree with but I just

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Speaker 1: made up back in our YouTube video Dash. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: you know, we would have to have shows that were

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Speaker 1: list based, right, and there would be things where you know,

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Speaker 1: five is a great number for a list, Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: three is the minimum. Three is the minimum.

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Speaker 2: It almost is like, shit, you didn't want to go

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Speaker 2: the extra mile and do an even four. The answer

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Speaker 2: to that today, my friends, is no, we've got a

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Speaker 2: solid three.

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Speaker 1: We've got a solid three. We've got some other things

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Speaker 1: that might interest you. And this this episode is kind

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Speaker 1: of inspired by our earlier discussion previous episode on the

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Speaker 1: dilemma of progress versus preservations. True, So we're talking about

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Speaker 1: these books that have been suppressed or yanked out of

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Speaker 1: popular society.

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Speaker 2: Literally physically yanked out of children's hands at times, yes,

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Speaker 2: you know, by constables or something.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, right, And now the police, the book

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Speaker 1: police got it the real Wait, no, no, because I

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Speaker 1: know what's going to happen in this episode. No, they

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Speaker 1: are real, and I don't like it. You don't want it.

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Speaker 1: I don't want that, you don't want none of that.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for saving me there and all keep your books, man,

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Speaker 1: got to keep them. So usually when we think of

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Speaker 1: books being banned, we think of, you know, fictional things like, uh,

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Speaker 1: the catcher in.

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Speaker 2: The Rise to Kill a Mockingbird is one that comes up,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it's still taught in school, but it

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Speaker 2: is one that some schools are uncomfortable.

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Speaker 1: With, right exactly. But what we're looking at today is

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Speaker 1: the other side of the genre equation. You see, it's

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Speaker 1: not just fictional books that get banned, burned, or pulled

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Speaker 1: from the market.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you could argue that this is, you know,

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Speaker 2: more important in many ways than banning works of fiction,

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Speaker 2: which obviously are culturally valuable. But we're talking about hard

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Speaker 2: stuff here, hard science, science fact.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, things that literally changed our understanding of the world.

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Speaker 2: But to this day, some of these books are looked

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Speaker 2: at a skance by many. We're going to get into

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Speaker 2: that too.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, yes, we have we have a great uh,

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Speaker 1: we have a great example of reference that you found

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Speaker 1: that we are gonna have to put in at some

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Speaker 1: point in the episode. Oh yeah, it's gonna be fun.

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Speaker 1: It's that we're gonna have a musical guest. Yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have a musical guest. It's gonna be a not

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Speaker 1: not the first time, but one of the most enjoyable,

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Speaker 1: slash disturbing. So who do we have first? The first

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Speaker 1: band book, Well, it was written by a fellow named

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Speaker 1: Galileo Galilei Have you heard that song by the Indigo Girls?

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Speaker 1: I love it. I was thinking of it as we

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Speaker 1: were going in today atl Hometown Heroes.

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Speaker 2: It's a galilet or something something something over a couple

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Speaker 2: of beers and.

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Speaker 1: Howlo till my soul getrived? Can any human be? He

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Speaker 1: never reached that kind of life then, right, beautiful singing voice. Wow,

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Speaker 1: well it's cool.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, it's an interesting They do a good

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Speaker 2: job of sort of personifying the quandary the Galileo faced

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Speaker 2: because he was an innovator. He thought big, He had

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Speaker 2: big ideas, and that was not particularly popular with many

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Speaker 2: of the folks in power, especially the church. Because we're

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Speaker 2: talking about the Copernican view of the solar system, right, yes, yes.

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Speaker 1: Heliocentrism, the radical notion that, despite the spiritual implications, the

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Speaker 1: Earth revolved around the Sun rather than the Sun and

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Speaker 1: all things revolving around Earth.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm a little foggy about why that that being

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Speaker 2: the Ptolemaic model, correct, Yeah, why does one or the

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Speaker 2: other imply more or less of a God?

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Speaker 1: So the controversy from a spiritual sense is that Earth

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Speaker 1: and humanity are the protagonists of the universe. Got it,

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Speaker 1: They're the main characters. That makes sense, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so they're the way a child thinks, probably right, or

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Speaker 1: many adults. That's true. But the thing that was interesting

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Speaker 1: about this as well is that other astronomers, not just

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Speaker 1: you know, spiritual leaders, but other astronomers tried to find

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Speaker 1: what they felt were quantitative arguments against heliocentrism. But his book,

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Speaker 1: The Dialogue concerning the Two Chief World Systems Toolemaic and Copernican,

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Speaker 1: was a little too solid to be taken down just

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Speaker 1: by attempts at rebuttal arguments.

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Speaker 2: It's true, and the Spanish Inquisition gets into this game

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Speaker 2: pretty quick, right in sixteen eleven. They kind of caught

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Speaker 2: wind of Galileo and him espousing these Copernican views, but

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Speaker 2: they sort of, you know, kept their distance. They didn't

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Speaker 2: come a gun and for him right away, and he

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Speaker 2: was allowed even he had pals in the papacy in

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Speaker 2: the Vatican who kind of gave him some leeway. I

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Speaker 2: guess they allowed him to espouse these views as long

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Speaker 2: as he couched them as being mathematical theories, which is

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Speaker 2: a theme that comes into play with some of our

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Speaker 2: other list entries.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, they micro managed the pants off this guy.

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Speaker 1: He originally intended to title this work Dialogue on the

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Speaker 1: Two Chief World Systems, the Dialogue on the Ebb and

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Speaker 1: Flow of the Sea, but the Inquisition made him remove

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Speaker 1: the reference to tides in the title. This is twenty

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Speaker 1: years later too. They've they'd known about him since the

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Speaker 1: early sixteen hundred. They had their eye on him, and

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Speaker 1: they were like, all right, let's see what this rabbel

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Speaker 1: rouser gets up to. Then, in sixteen sixty, he kept

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Speaker 1: having complaints filed.

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Speaker 2: Against him right right for his views and for him

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Speaker 2: his willingness to openly speak about this and to publish

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Speaker 2: these works, and he finally had a complaint lodged against him,

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Speaker 2: a written complaint with the Inquisition, specifically against Galileo's Copernican views.

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Speaker 2: And Galileo responded by defending his views to a person

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Speaker 2: by the name of Monsignor Piero Dini, who was a

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Speaker 2: official at the Vatican. And then he also wrote his

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Speaker 2: famous letter to the Grand Duchess Christina, basically saying, come on,

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Speaker 2: I'm just asking questions here. You know, I should be

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Speaker 2: free to explore the meaning of the universe in existence

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Speaker 2: without you meddling in my affairs, you know, get out

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Speaker 2: of my face, Rome.

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Speaker 1: Right, and let's let's dive into a little bit of

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Speaker 1: this here. So earlier, Pope Urban the eighth had himself

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Speaker 1: asked Galileo to argue for and against Heelio centrism because.

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Speaker 2: They were kind of personal friends. It was as much

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Speaker 2: as you can be with a pope, right.

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Speaker 1: He asked them to put these arguments in the book,

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Speaker 1: and to be careful not to advocate Helio centrism, sort

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Speaker 1: of pull a mainstream news thing, present both sides of

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Speaker 1: the argument. And he asked for another favor, and he said, hey, Galileo,

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Speaker 1: can you put my personal views about this in the book?

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Speaker 1: And Galileo did. But the problem is that the presenter

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Speaker 1: of the geocentric view that Earth is the middle of everything,

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Speaker 1: the defender of that in the book is a guy

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Speaker 1: named Simplicio, not the most complimentary name, and it's like

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Speaker 1: he has he's some sort of simp simple. Yeah. He

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Speaker 1: comes off like a adult, yes, a dunderhead, yeah, an

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Speaker 1: income boop, got it. And Galileo takes the things that

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Speaker 1: Pope Urban says and puts them in Simplicio's voice, and

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Speaker 1: so the Pope feels publicly ridiculed and is no longer

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Speaker 1: a fan of Galileo. G So Galileo gets called to

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Speaker 1: Rome to defend his controversial writings. He arrives in February

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Speaker 1: of sixteen thirty three, and he is brought to the inquisitors.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's also just point out that about a

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Speaker 2: decade prior or, in sixteen sixteen, he was formally accused

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Speaker 2: of heresy.

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Speaker 1: Yes, already, Yeah, so he was, he was not.

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Speaker 2: You know, the fact that he was buddies with Pope

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Speaker 2: Urban probably is what got his butt out of the

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Speaker 2: frying pan a time or two. But now he is

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Speaker 2: literally pissed off the one guy that was going to

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Speaker 2: help him, you know, dodge the inquisitors. And you know,

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Speaker 2: no one expects the Spanish inquisition, right, we made it,

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Speaker 2: We made it.

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Speaker 1: It happened. Yeah, he had a pass and Noel, I

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Speaker 1: think you put it very well when you talk about

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Speaker 1: how he's almost always skirting by yep, just on the edge,

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Speaker 1: and when it all comes to a head in sixteen thirties, right,

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Speaker 1: in sixteen thirty three, that's right, he is interrogating. He's

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Speaker 1: like seventy. At this point, he's interrogated for eighteen days straight.

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Speaker 1: They eventually say, look, we're going to torture you if

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Speaker 1: you don't tell us what we want to hear.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's like, what do they want him to say?

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Speaker 2: I mean, as they want him to confess to what

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Speaker 2: exactly he's a scientist?

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Speaker 1: Like he didn't.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand. I think they just wanted him to

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Speaker 2: renounce his views. I think that's what they were after, right,

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Speaker 2: They wanted him a printer and a retraction.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was specifically required in the sentence they delivered

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Speaker 1: in June twenty second is sixteen thirty three, he was

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Speaker 1: required to abjure, curse, and detest his heliocentric opinions. That's right.

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Speaker 2: They were basically saying that he had made too strong

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Speaker 2: a case for the Copernican view of the solar system.

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Speaker 1: And so what's the outcome here? Right, he's alienated the Pope,

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Speaker 1: He's no longer under his protection. He does get this sentence,

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Speaker 1: They tell him to renounce everything. They lay a few

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Speaker 1: other clauses on him too, But do they kill him?

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Speaker 1: They what happens?

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Speaker 5: Nah?

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Speaker 2: They just kind of like do the sixteen hundred's equivalent

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Speaker 2: of like the old ankle bracelet you know where you

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Speaker 2: got to you can't leave house.

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Speaker 1: That's right, he is on permanent time out. He gets

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Speaker 1: put on house arrest for the rest of his life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think they ban his work outright, mm hmmm,

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Speaker 2: like like any of it is that right.

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Speaker 1: Publication of anything he wrote was forbidden, including anything that

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Speaker 1: he might write in the future.

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Speaker 2: But of course, you know, as smart people are often

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Speaker 2: able to do, he persevered and did continue to write.

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Speaker 1: He figured out how to do it. Yeah. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you have to wonder is that a fate worse than

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Speaker 1: death to be so smart and so enterprising and be

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Speaker 1: told that we're not going to kill you, but you

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Speaker 1: cannot do the one thing they gave your life.

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Speaker 2: Meaning now it makes me think of the really amazing

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Speaker 2: scene in the Tanya Harding movie, which I really recommend.

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Speaker 2: If you guys haven't seen it, tell you where she

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Speaker 2: the judge passes down the sentence. This isn't a spoiler

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Speaker 2: because this was in the news, you know, right. I

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Speaker 2: think we're good here, and the judge says, you're not

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Speaker 2: going to go to jail, but you can't skate professionally.

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Speaker 1: Anymore.

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Speaker 2: Ever, again, you can't compete, and she's just like in

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Speaker 2: tears and it's like, you know, her conspirators or whatever

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Speaker 2: they got jail time.

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Speaker 1: She's like, just toend me to jail. Just don't. I can't.

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Speaker 1: If I can't skate, what's the point you know?

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Speaker 3: This is?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but as you said, no, he does remain in

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Speaker 1: the historical record, and the mark he left on the

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Speaker 1: human effort to understand the world and the universe around

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Speaker 1: us remains profound and crucial.

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Speaker 2: Today we didn't even talk about his book The Starry Messenger.

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Speaker 2: We're using his prototype for the modern day telescope. He

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Speaker 2: was able to observe celestial bodies and write things down

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Speaker 2: about them before I believe anybody else.

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Speaker 1: Wow, Yeah, that's I mean, that's fantastic. We could do

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Speaker 1: an entire series of shows on the historical significance of Galileo.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a shame that we have to move on.

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Speaker 2: It really is that we're moving on to some equally

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Speaker 2: fascinating territory.

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Speaker 1: This may well be the most infamous book on our list,

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Speaker 1: or the most well known by you know, the average

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Speaker 1: Jane Joe walking around. For sure. It is on the

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Speaker 1: origin of species by means of natural selection? Can we

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Speaker 1: get a crazy sound qu drop.

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Speaker 3: Charles Darnwiz perfect Yeah, Charles Darwin, Charles Darwin, Charlie de

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Speaker 3: I like to call him yeah to his friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. He was a fascinating character.

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Speaker 1: So what did his What did his book ultimately argue?

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Speaker 2: No, the crux of its argument was a little thing

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Speaker 2: called evolution is not the most palatable thing to certain

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Speaker 2: folks of certain religious persuasions. In the same way that

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Speaker 2: Galileo's ideas challenged these views, this challenged a lot as

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Speaker 2: well in terms of, you know, if we evolved from

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Speaker 2: other more lower species, then we were not made in

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Speaker 2: God's image.

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Speaker 1: Adam and Eves out the window.

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Speaker 2: A lot of things kind of go out the window

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Speaker 2: when you start to buy into his findings.

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Speaker 1: Right, we see again an analog here or a similar

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Speaker 1: theme as we saw in the books by Galileo, because

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Speaker 1: the heliocentric argument is a bit of a kick or

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Speaker 1: a bruise to the ego of the human species, and

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Speaker 1: in a way, on the origin of species is also

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Speaker 1: a kick to humanity because it's saying you are not

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Speaker 1: this singular thing that was made out of whole cloth.

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Speaker 1: You are the result of a process that was here

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Speaker 1: before you and will function long after you were gone.

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Speaker 2: It's very true, Ben, And just just a quick little

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Speaker 2: summary of Charlie. He was a naturalist, a biologist, a geologist,

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Speaker 2: very very versatile man in his learnedness, and he believed

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Speaker 2: that all species of life evolved or descended from a

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Speaker 2: common ancestor. Right, yeah, what was that common ancestor for?

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Speaker 1: For man?

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Speaker 2: Oh, the primates, the primates, right yeah, all right. And so,

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Speaker 2: like we said before, this was not met with the

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Speaker 2: most open arms from religious leaders, and this is a

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Speaker 2: thing that still goes on today. So let's just talk

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Speaker 2: about how this work was received when it came out

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Speaker 2: and what may have led to the idea of it

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Speaker 2: being a banned book, and then we'll kind of bring

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Speaker 2: it to modern day.

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Speaker 1: Sure, here we go. So first, it's important to know

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Speaker 1: that Darwin himself identified agnostic, meaning that he was not

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Speaker 1: a fervent practitioner of any particular religion, especially Christianity, which

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Speaker 1: would have been very common in his time. Darwin was

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Speaker 1: considered a pretty affable country gentleman, country gentry, and he

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Speaker 1: shocked Victorian society at the time when he suggested that

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Speaker 1: animals and humans came from a common source. Pearls were

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Speaker 1: clutched right, right. This It wasn't universally hated. It was

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Speaker 1: just controversial because there was at the time also a

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Speaker 1: rising class of professional scientists. It was their job to

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Speaker 1: conduct experiments, right, to be a chemist or a physicists

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Speaker 1: or so on, and this concept, this non religious biology,

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Speaker 1: appealed to them and they propagated it. But at the

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Speaker 1: same time, very powerful people are powerfully offended.

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Speaker 2: As powerful people tend to get, their offense has legs,

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Speaker 2: It reaches outward, it can ruin lives, it can topple

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Speaker 2: empires and suppress information.

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Speaker 1: Right, so let's look at the timeline. He publishes the

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Speaker 1: book in eighteen fifty nine and it outlines the theory

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Speaker 1: of evolution. Not long after that the book is banned,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the library of Trinity College, Cambridge, where he

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Speaker 1: had been student. So the banning begins soon after the

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Speaker 1: book is published, and it inspires international debate. The Church

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Speaker 1: of England reacted against the book, but interestingly enough, Anglicans

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Speaker 1: supported Darwin's theory of natural selection and saw it as

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Speaker 1: an instrument of God's design, So they were saying, okay,

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Speaker 1: evolution can happen because God wants it to.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Yeah, that's interesting. It's very adaptable view. I guess

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Speaker 2: I can appreciate that. But Darwin's research only got more

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Speaker 2: controversial as time went on, and it started to become

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Speaker 2: a concern in public schools.

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Speaker 1: Oh yes, And this is what's nice about this being

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Speaker 1: second in our list here is Galileo may feel like

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Speaker 1: ancient history to some people, right, Charles Darwin may feel

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Speaker 1: a little bit older too, because the book is in,

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Speaker 1: you know, the mid eighteen hundreds. But the controversy didn't

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Speaker 1: like die down in nineteen hundred or something. Oh no,

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Speaker 1: it continued for a long time. And it continued, especially

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Speaker 1: here in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Even though much like global warming is largely accepted by

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Speaker 2: the scientific community, Darwin's teachings.

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Speaker 1: Were as well.

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Speaker 2: And the idea of evolution and natural selection is sort

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Speaker 2: of the law of the land as far as the

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Speaker 2: science crowd goes. So, as one would expect, this sends

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Speaker 2: up in a lot of books, a lot of textbooks

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Speaker 2: that students are getting in high schools in middle schools

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Speaker 2: about biology and the origin of life. And that rubbed

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Speaker 2: certain local governments the wrong way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, kidding, and the way that they would phrase

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Speaker 1: this opposition was relatively fluid. There would be you know,

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Speaker 1: some of the initial opposition was that this was essentially heresy,

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Speaker 1: which you can't prosecute people for heresy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we don't have a Spanish inquisition anymore, right.

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Speaker 1: So that argument was pretty much on the level transparent,

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Speaker 1: This offends our view of the nature of the universe, right,

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Speaker 1: and people rallied behind this cause it became something that

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Speaker 1: would be portrayed in pop culture as well. Yeah, big time.

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Speaker 1: Have you heard of the Scopes monkey trial? Ben? Yes? Yes,

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Speaker 1: what do you know about the Scopes trials? The Scopes

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Speaker 1: trials took place in Tennessee, right, and it was a

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Speaker 1: There are some twists in turngal here to this story,

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Speaker 1: but the quick summary is that this was almost like

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Speaker 1: a public trial for whether or not evolution should be

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Speaker 1: taught in United States public schools. It's right.

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Speaker 2: In fact, they had a law on the books in

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty five that was called the Butler Act HB

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Speaker 2: one eighty five. It was the bill that was founded

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Speaker 2: on the arrest of John Scopes, who was a teacher

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Speaker 2: in a Tennessee public school, and he took it upon

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Speaker 2: himself to teach evolution, and that did not sit well

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Speaker 2: with the Tennessee government, and.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people rally behind this because this was

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Speaker 1: the first trial to be broadcast on the radio.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the language of the law was no joke either.

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Speaker 2: It was described as quote, an act prohibiting the teaching

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Speaker 2: of the evolution theory in all the universities, normals, and

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Speaker 2: other public schools of Tennessee. It prohibited the teaching of

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Speaker 2: any theory that denies the story of the divine creation

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Speaker 2: of man as taught in the Bible, and to teach

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Speaker 2: instead that man has descended from a lower order of animals.

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Speaker 2: Punishments included any teacher found guilty of the violation of

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Speaker 2: this Act shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and a

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Speaker 2: punk viction. Shall be fine not less than one hundred

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Speaker 2: dollars nor more than five hundred for each offense.

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Speaker 1: Yikes. Right, And this is in Dayton, Tennessee. And one

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Speaker 1: thing that I find kind of wholesome and lighthearted about

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Speaker 1: the whole event is that there was a carnival sk

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Speaker 1: atmosphere outside of the courthouse. People were selling hot dogs, lemonade,

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Speaker 1: toy monkeys. Of course.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, in fact, there's a pretty amazing little jingle that

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Speaker 2: was written around this very event.

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Speaker 1: Casey, can we have a clip of this please?

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Speaker 5: I'm no kin to the monkey. No no, no, the

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Speaker 5: monkey's hocking to the Yeah yeah, yeah, I don't know

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Speaker 5: much of that his and says just that I didn't

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Speaker 5: swing by my tream seeing so unbelievabove, and yet those

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Speaker 5: saying it's true, they're teaching us about it in now

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Speaker 5: that humans where monkeys wants to whoam no ki.

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Speaker 1: Ah, sweet sweet catchy ignorance. It is catchy. You have

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Speaker 1: to give it that. If you just heard that song

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Speaker 1: and you didn't speak English, you would think, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: that's got a nice role to it.

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Speaker 2: It's got good alliteration. It's like, I'm no kin to

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Speaker 2: the monkey.

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Speaker 1: No no, no, the monkey's no kin to me. Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like a calypso almost. Yeah. It's got, it's got.

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Speaker 1: It's got some punch to it. Kind of makes me

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Speaker 1: want to deny evolution. It's working, nol, it's working. You

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Speaker 1: can't listen to the song in full, they'll get you.

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Speaker 1: But they also technically got scopes. Interesting fact. He was

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Speaker 1: found guilty and he was fined one hundred dollars one

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Speaker 1: hundred dollars. I guess he only did it once. In

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Speaker 1: the modern parlance, we would say he took an L.

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Speaker 1: He took that L for all of us. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: really did.

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Speaker 2: But this, you know this, this was a nineteen twenty

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Speaker 2: three and this stuff was happening as recently as like

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Speaker 2: the nineties. In Georgia, for example, there was a Supreme

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Speaker 2: Court ruling that declared it unconstitutional for the government to

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Speaker 2: require biology textbooks that contain natural selection, versions of evolution,

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Speaker 2: and the origins of life. They would have stickers on

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Speaker 2: them that referred to this stuff as a theory. Evolution

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Speaker 2: is a theory, they would say, not a fact regarding

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Speaker 2: the origin of living things. And then in January of

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Speaker 2: two thousand and five, a federal judge ruled that those

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Speaker 2: stickers were no good because they essentially endorsed a religious viewpoint.

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Speaker 1: And the school board spent a year appealing the ruling

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Speaker 1: until it finally got settled in two thousand and six.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, that's insane. I really like this one. In California,

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Speaker 2: of course, California. In twenty ten, the Supreme Court decided

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Speaker 2: to not hear the Association of Christian Schools international at

434
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,600
Speaker 2: all versus Roman sterns at all. And this case was

435
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 2: an appeal of a ruling that basically said that the

436
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 2: state had the right to consider the teachings of certain

437
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 2: religon just schools insufficient preparation for college.

438
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: That's you know, you've got to respect the way that

439
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: people frame these things, because supporters of the measures like

440
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 1: the sticker thing or the idea of teaching intelligent design

441
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,440
Speaker 1: hand in hand with evolution into public school Supporters of

442
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: these measures say that they are not repressing of you.

443
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,919
Speaker 1: They are promoting quote, academic freedom by encouraging students and

444
00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:31,360
Speaker 1: teachers alike to think critically and pretty much question everything.

445
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,919
Speaker 1: That's a bunch of jib or jabber. I don't know

446
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 1: if it is sincere. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like a

447
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,360
Speaker 1: line of bull honky. It seems like there's a whole

448
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 1: stream of huy. But it does go to show that

449
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: even even after more than one hundred years, this book

450
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: remains controversial, and there are people who will tell you

451
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: that it is purposely meant to mislead you.

452
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,399
Speaker 2: You know, sure, even though and hey, no ding on

453
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 2: Christian here, This is just a matter of to me

454
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: ignoring clear evidence in favor of stuff that even many

455
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: Christians will say that the Bible is a book that

456
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: is meant to teach. It has these kind of like

457
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 2: scenarios that are necessarily meant to be read as.

458
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: Literary actual occurrences.

459
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: So I always find it interesting when people are so

460
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 2: stuck in an opinion that they can't see that there's

461
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 2: you know, other information out there.

462
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 1: And I'm a fan of the approach that those Anglicans

463
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,560
Speaker 1: took back in the eighteen fifties eighteen sixties. Things don't

464
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: have to be mutually exclusive. You know, your personal belief

465
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: system is just that personal right big time. And so

466
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: also you have to consider if somebody is an opponent

467
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: of a scientific thought like this or a theory of

468
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: some sort, going out of your way to suppress it

469
00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: in this manner makes it so much more powerful and

470
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: interesting course to everyone else, you know. Yep, agreed. So

471
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: thanks to you, Charles Darwin, thanks for hopping on the

472
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: Beagle and changing the course of science for us. All

473
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: the Regal Beagle yep, the HMS Beagle. Ah Noel, we're

474
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: drawing to a close at least four our massive list

475
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 1: of three.

476
00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, I think we've done a good job

477
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 2: of expanding it. There have been lists within lists kind

478
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: of you know, sub lists, and I have.

479
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: So much other stuff on banning books. I might have

480
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,280
Speaker 1: to just like run through it real quick at the end.

481
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: Do it if we have time. But what's what's next? Oh?

482
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: Man, Well, Casey, I want I want to I want

483
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: you to to give me your feedback on this.

484
00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about George Lemetre.

485
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 6: That's like George is the master.

486
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 1: Oh cool, George le Metro. I think I did it.

487
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I think you did a great job. All right,

488
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: So George, Now I'm gonna know I gotta really like that.

489
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: Wait was this all on Mike? Yeah? Okay, Grace, Yeah,

490
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: I don't know. It doesn't have to be Well, this

491
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: has been Casey on the case I guess, so it

492
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: does have to be that.

493
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 2: This gentleman Lemetta has the most remarkably unremarkable title of

494
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,880
Speaker 2: any of the books on the lists so far.

495
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: Oh I love I love the pants off of it.

496
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: Would you like to grace us with this title? Ben Sure?

497
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: Get ready a homogeneous universe of constant mass and growing radius,

498
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: accounting for the radial velocity of extra galactic nebula by Lametto.

499
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 1: I'm telling you you're nailing that pronunciation. I could you

500
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 1: hear Casey? There was pride, there was in his voice.

501
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: I mean that makes me feel really good. So, yeah,

502
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: this this gentleman. He wrote this article in nineteen twenty seven.

503
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: It wasn't a book, and this espoused essentially the first

504
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 2: version of what is now referred to as the Big

505
00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: Bang theory or yeah that one.

506
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the automnipia version, right.

507
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 2: And just to give you a sense of what a

508
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 2: giant of astrophysics this guy was, Stephen Hawkings basically credits

509
00:31:15,440 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: him as being the founder of it all, the godfather

510
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: of this idea of the universe exploding outward from a

511
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: particle known as what is it a super adom?

512
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, or a cosmic egg or primeval egg? Is that

513
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: the one? Yeah, that's so cool. Unless we sound like

514
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 1: we're going to be constantly pitying science against spirituality here

515
00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: we should point out that, in addition to being a

516
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 1: titan in the world of astrophysics, le Maltra was a

517
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 1: Belgian Catholic priest.

518
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 2: He was indeed every picture you can find the m

519
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: he's got his little uh what do you call that

520
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,440
Speaker 2: thing little priest collar.

521
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, a Roman collar or a clergy collar. There you go.

522
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, so he's he is deep in both worlds. My

523
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: friend is he is a man of science and a

524
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 2: man of God, which makes his findings extra interesting to me.

525
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 1: Absolutely, and his religious standing didn't stop the Big Bang

526
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 1: from being looked at as a controversial idea. Even Albert

527
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 1: Einstein at first was like, yeah, are you sure about that?

528
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: I don't know about that one, buddy, Yeah, I don't know, father,

529
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 1: And we can, you know, you can kind of understand,

530
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: just like just like the case with Galileo or with

531
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: Darwin Wild. Yeah, we've never heard this before radical, but

532
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: it's such a challenging question that humanity is still trying

533
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,719
Speaker 1: to really figure out. You know, what did the universe

534
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: have a starting point? If so, what was there beforehand?

535
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: You know? And this is mind blowing stuff that this guy,

536
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: this guy came up with. And sure we can we

537
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: can laugh a little bit at the idea of Cosmic Egg.

538
00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: It's kind of like Emerson's transparent eyeball, but it's sounds

539
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 1: like a really cool prog rock band, Cosmic Egg. Yeah, oh,

540
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 1: we should tell everybody. So we have been collectively Casey

541
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: Nol and some of our colleagues and I have collectively

542
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:18,640
Speaker 1: been really into making up band names or noting when

543
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,320
Speaker 1: something would be a good band name. So you're probably

544
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: gonna hear us doing that for a while in the

545
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: next few episodes. We like to do the band name

546
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: and then the genre. So Cosmic Egg.

547
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I would say, kind of like crowd rock,

548
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,480
Speaker 2: like sort of like can you know, very repetitive drumming

549
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 2: and you know, w kind of bass and yeah, like

550
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: cal mudy guitars, and yeah, I'm liking that.

551
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: Cosmic Egg. What else? What else you got? I feel

552
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: like Cosmic Egg is definitely the superior the three names

553
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,120
Speaker 1: for band name, I think I think you nailed it.

554
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 1: Hole in one.

555
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,480
Speaker 2: We had one last night. It was denhim Glut. Remember

556
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 2: Denim Glutz, Yeah, Denim Glut.

557
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 1: Oh was it the Rainbow Denim Glut.

558
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 5: No.

559
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 2: You were just talking about how like you were saying,

560
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 2: there was a den surplus and they were trying to

561
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: like capitalize on that by selling it at a at

562
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:07,680
Speaker 2: a loss or something like that, to be a lost

563
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 2: leader or something.

564
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: Anyway over my head. We had a really in depth

565
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: discussion off air about Denham.

566
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 2: I think we decided that Denham Glutt would be kind

567
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 2: of an electro dancy kind of kind of bands.

568
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, it had to be because it would be two

569
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: on the news for it to be country music.

570
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 2: I could see, yeah, definitely, only notes. I could see

571
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,840
Speaker 2: Denim Glutt opening for Cosmic Egg though. Oh yeah, that

572
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: seems like.

573
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 1: A good bill. Dance the night away. I love it.

574
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,240
Speaker 1: So we'll let you know when we make those things

575
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 1: real bands. But in the meantime we should return to

576
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 1: Le Maltra. Le Matra pretty good. You were so much

577
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:49,279
Speaker 1: better at that than I am. It's all about the

578
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: Oh god, sorry, guys, choked a little bit.

579
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: It's been a long week. It has been a long Yeah.

580
00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: Our Belgian cosmologists and Kathleen Priest and you know, let's

581
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about how he arrived.

582
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:07,320
Speaker 1: At this idea.

583
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 2: Ooh do tell well, let's start from the beginning. He

584
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:14,839
Speaker 2: was born in eighteen ninety four in Charleroi, Belgium, and

585
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 2: from a very early age he was into both science

586
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 2: and religion. He did serve in World War One briefly,

587
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 2: and then after that he decided to get into theoretical

588
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: physics and in short order was ordained so you know,

589
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,520
Speaker 2: he really knew his path, kind of a split path,

590
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: but an interesting one, and he really committed to both

591
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 2: pretty heartily. By the time he was thirty one, he

592
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 2: became a professor at a Catholic university. And this is

593
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 2: interesting Ben. During World War Two, he actually was hurt

594
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: when his home was accidentally bombed by.

595
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,200
Speaker 1: US horses friendly fire. Huh, yeah, that's rough. And the

596
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: whole time he is he is studying physics himself as

597
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: this is going on, as his home is being accidentally bombed.

598
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,919
Speaker 1: In nineteen twenty seven, he discovers a group of solutions

599
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: to Einstein's field equations of relativity, and the solutions that

600
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 1: he finds do not describe a static universe.

601
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,440
Speaker 2: That was the prevailing notion, right right, the universe is

602
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: just here, that's it.

603
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 1: But his solutions described an expanding universe. At the same time,

604
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: a few years earlier, another researcher, Russian named Alexander Friedman,

605
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: had discovered this too, but they were not in contact

606
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 1: with each other. So he brings this. He publishes this

607
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: report in the same year, nineteen twenty seven, in a

608
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 1: little known journal oh called all right, hey, Casey, can you.

609
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm going to do my best here would be

610
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 6: the anw de la associatissel something like that. My man

611
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 6: bulks somewhere in there.

612
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, casey on the case, ladies, gentlemen. In this report

613
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 1: he presents this idea of an expanding universe that we

614
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: would later call Hubble's law, the idea that the outward

615
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,880
Speaker 1: speed of distant objects in the universe is proportional to

616
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 1: their distance from us. This, this is pretty this is

617
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: pretty crazy stuff, right. It seems Legit seems legit to us. Now, yeah,

618
00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 1: then I know. So we've got a little bit of

619
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: a pickle here. How do we get from cosmic egg

620
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,839
Speaker 1: to the Big Bang theory. There's there's a story there

621
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 1: that it's called Big Bang theory after a sarcastic remark

622
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 1: from an English astronomer named Fred Hoyle in nineteen forty nine.

623
00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: It's true. I actually found this article on Christian Today.

624
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: I guess it's written by a British person because I

625
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 2: just love this, they say one skeptical scientist, Fred rubbish

626
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 2: Lemetra's idea as the Big Bang theory, and even Einstein,

627
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: like we mentioned earlier, thought it was just.

628
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,319
Speaker 1: Way too far out.

629
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 2: Man, Oh, Albert Einstein man.

630
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,919
Speaker 1: And that's just too far out. That's how he would

631
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: have that's how he actually has happened. Yep, we did

632
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: the research on that. Yes, So now fast forward to

633
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:27,240
Speaker 1: the modern day. We are very very fortunate that these

634
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,600
Speaker 1: ideas and these works survived despite the way they challenged

635
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: the status quo.

636
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,640
Speaker 2: What was it like the discovery of background radiation or

637
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 2: microwaves or something like that, like confirmed a lot of

638
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,560
Speaker 2: the basis for his argument.

639
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:45,719
Speaker 1: That's correct, Nol. That's true. Actually, a while back, I

640
00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 1: was able to interview the Nobel Prize winning professor John Mather,

641
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: who was instrumental in essentially proving the Big Bang and

642
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: taking it outside of the realm of theory. And we

643
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: were interviewing him because he was working on the James

644
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 1: Webb Space Telescope, which is the successor to the hub.

645
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,920
Speaker 1: That's right when you guys went to NASA. So cool.

646
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was actually a pair of scientist Arnout

647
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 2: Penzias and Robert Wilson who discovered those cosmic microwave background radiations.

648
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 2: I am not even borderlines smart enough to know how

649
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: that relates or what that means, but Lemantwa did find

650
00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:30,319
Speaker 2: this out before his death and he shures, crap, knew

651
00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:30,840
Speaker 2: what it meant.

652
00:39:31,080 --> 00:39:37,360
Speaker 1: So good on him. Vindication. That's true. Score one for science.

653
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: And you always have to imagine, you know, if we

654
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: put ourselves back in these people's shoes. It is so

655
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:49,319
Speaker 1: fascinating to think how much progress they made with so

656
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 1: much less assistance or knowledge in comparison to what we

657
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 1: have today. It's true. Boy. We can only hope that

658
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: in twenty four hundred AD or something people look back

659
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 1: and say, I can't believe they made such a great

660
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: podcast before the days of telepathic communication.

661
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 2: You know, if that's our legacy, then I'm fine with that, man.

662
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:14,360
Speaker 2: I'll tell you, Ben, I'm bushed.

663
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,520
Speaker 1: That was a long one. There's a long one. I

664
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 1: sure would hate it.

665
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:20,919
Speaker 2: If some sort of pedantic supervillain came along.

666
00:40:21,080 --> 00:40:25,320
Speaker 1: Don't do it. Oh, I had so much great stuff

667
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 1: to close out on the dangers of modern censorship, and

668
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: now now we're.

669
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 7: Here, it's time, gentlemen.

670
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: I guess it was only a matter of time before

671
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 2: it was once again time.

672
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, fatalism. It's your friend, Jonathan Strickland,

673
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: the quizt You've returned yet again, both to challenge our

674
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: ability to discern true history from fake history, and to

675
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 1: rationalize all the budget money we spent on that gigantic

676
00:40:56,160 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: Grandfather clock. It's back, Huh, it's always been. Yeah, I'm sorry.

677
00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 7: I am nothing if not an excuse for extravagant purchases.

678
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,560
Speaker 2: You seem like you've kind of taken it down a

679
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 2: notch a little bit, chick.

680
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,880
Speaker 7: I'm gonna be honest. In another day, I'm going to

681
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 7: be opening up at a show, and all my energy

682
00:41:17,560 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 7: has been devoted to that. So you're kind of getting

683
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 7: the I'm not gonna say a halfway on seven.

684
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,799
Speaker 2: It's usually you're on like thirteen six point two.

685
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 8: It can be a bit much, right, hang on, hang on, Well, gentlemen,

686
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,520
Speaker 8: now prepare yourself now. As I understand it, the topic

687
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 8: for today's discussion was one on bend books.

688
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you go back to say, yeah, why did

689
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:44,880
Speaker 1: you ask him to do this?

690
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 7: I'm going to burn through all my energy right now.

691
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:50,720
Speaker 2: You know, Twister, I gotta tell you, you've become quite

692
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,439
Speaker 2: the divisive figure on our show.

693
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: We only forward you the nice emails.

694
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 7: So there's there's those who really hate it. Well, you

695
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 7: know what I've always said, it's the most cringeworthy segment

696
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,799
Speaker 7: in podcasting. I make no apologies. So I have for

697
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,319
Speaker 7: you your scenario, and of course you always know that

698
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,439
Speaker 7: I always have an arbitrary rule that I in state, yes,

699
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 7: in order for you to ask questions during the three

700
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,080
Speaker 7: minutes you have to deliberate, I.

701
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 1: Will tell you that arbitrary rule.

702
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 7: After I read you the scenario, so you'll get a

703
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,799
Speaker 7: little extra time to think it over. That little extra

704
00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 7: time being, you know, the five seconds it takes me

705
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 7: to tell you the arbitrary rule. So here is your scenario.

706
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 7: And yes it's gotten longer. It's just a so erw

707
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 7: it'll soon be its own podcast.

708
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: Here we are. Yeah.

709
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 7: From the mid nineteen seventies through the nineteen nineties, many

710
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 7: parts of the world, particularly the United States, were gripped

711
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 7: in what we now call the Satanic Panic, in which

712
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 7: people became convinced that cults practicing ritualistic abuse were poised

713
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 7: to topple our world into chaos. Games like Dungeons and

714
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 7: Dragons and music like rock and or roll became targets.

715
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: One town took this a little bit further.

716
00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 7: On June twenty sixth, nineteen eighty nine, Hartford, Connecticut School

717
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 7: Board officials made a big show of fighting against the

718
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 7: forces of darkness by banning several books. Among them was

719
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:20,160
Speaker 7: the Necronomicon. There's only one problem. The Necronomicon does not exist.

720
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 7: It was a fictional book created by H. P. Lovecraft

721
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 7: in his story The Hound in nineteen twenty two. But

722
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 7: apparently no one from Rhode Island told the good folks

723
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,760
Speaker 7: of Hartford, Connecticut about this. It took a few months,

724
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 7: but those same officials became the laughing stock of New

725
00:43:36,160 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 7: England once word got out, and no one ever mentioned

726
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 7: the ban again. Your arbitrary rule is that before you

727
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 7: can ask any question, you must proceed it with ya

728
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:50,439
Speaker 7: ya kutulu photoggin begin the clock, all right, yeah, yeah,

729
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 7: but look at all right, go ahead? That romance.

730
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:55,360
Speaker 2: I just wanted to try it. I just wanted to

731
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 2: make sure I get remembered it. I had to say

732
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 2: it once.

733
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: Es. Sorry, I'm wasting pressure. I'm sitting fan of lady.

734
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:01,439
Speaker 7: God's perfectly fine.

735
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: I really would they be that foolish? I mean that's yeah,

736
00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: they probably would. Yeah, photogon, Yes, mister Bildin. Is it

737
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 1: possible that most of this story is true, but one

738
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: part of it has changed? And if so, would that

739
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 1: render the entire thing false?

740
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 7: If you're asking me, would I make up one detail

741
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 7: to make a true story into a false one, I

742
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 7: absolutely would do that.

743
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: Son of a fish, that's my new family. That's pretty Yeah,

744
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 1: it's fun. That rolls right off the tone. I'm gonna

745
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: you know what I'm gonna. I'm gonna double down. I'm

746
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 1: gonna say true. Really yeah, that's okay. So here's the thing.

747
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm still divided because these longer ones tend to be fake.

748
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: If you look back, you're trying to pick up.

749
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 7: You're looking for meta informental.

750
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 2: No, I don't think he would. I don't think he

751
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 2: would tip his hand in that way.

752
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 1: He hates us, That's that's what I'm saying. I think

753
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: he would try to. He's playing those minds games. So

754
00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:11,080
Speaker 1: uh shoo, did you okay? I luf. You know I'm

755
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: not a native of inn Smith or whatever.

756
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 7: Right, So you're not so Eldridge right.

757
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: Right, I'm eldritch Light at least. So you mentioned Rhode Island.

758
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 1: I did. How did Rhode Island come into.

759
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 7: Lovecraft was from Rhode Island, Born in Rhode Island, died

760
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 7: in Rhode Island.

761
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: Went to New York a couple times and it really

762
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 1: screwed with his mind.

763
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 7: Did not like it.

764
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: Okay, uh yeah, you know what I'm gonna go. I'm

765
00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 1: gonna go with true. What do you think? Oh mhm,

766
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 1: surely our time's up? Really we have one minute and

767
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: one second. Oh cool, I'm just gonna I'm gonna think

768
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:44,439
Speaker 1: on that. I'm gonna I'm gonna have a good thing,

769
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 1: have a think those having a thing.

770
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:47,359
Speaker 7: How are you doing? Ben?

771
00:45:47,640 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: You know I've been doing all right? Man. We we

772
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: had a really great episode today and just between us,

773
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: it's it's always good to see you, even though it's

774
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 1: somewhat adversarial.

775
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 7: No, false, al right, So we've got got in the situation.

776
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 7: We know how this has always resolved.

777
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: Rose Shamboo. We're gonna do one two three shoot all right?

778
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: One two three shoot all right?

779
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 7: So we have mister Bullen's got a rock crush. So

780
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 7: we're going with true.

781
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: Then, yes, two ahead, Ben? You food? I have I

782
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: made it up, the whole thing, the who thing.

783
00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 7: Well, I didn't make up the satanic panic that.

784
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: Actually happened, that did occur, I'm aware of that was

785
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: it in the attic though.

786
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:42,320
Speaker 7: June twenty sixth, by the way, happens to be my birthday.

787
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 7: That was That was the hint I threw in there,

788
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,480
Speaker 7: just to tip it off. Also, you could have there

789
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 7: were I was prepared for all sorts of questions, because

790
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 7: there have been books titled the Necronomicon that were just

791
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 7: various hoaxes. There's, of course the infamous Simon Addition that

792
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 7: was published in the late nineteen seventies early nineteen eighties,

793
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:05,920
Speaker 7: but it only sold about eight hundred thousand copies, so

794
00:47:05,960 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 7: that probably wouldn't have registered enough to be on a bandabable.

795
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: There's also fan fiction Necronomicon.

796
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,000
Speaker 7: Sure in the early nineteen eighties, that really wasn't such

797
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 7: a big thing.

798
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: And I shouldn't have said anything about that pattern that

799
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:22,920
Speaker 1: I noticed, I know, especially because now he's probably going

800
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: to switch it up. Yeah, I was gonna say.

801
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 7: I also had other books that were supposedly banned in

802
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:29,600
Speaker 7: that same group, in case you asked me that question,

803
00:47:29,640 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 7: which included things like Satanic Versus by Salomon Rushdie. That's

804
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 7: why I originally had the date set for nineteen eighty five,

805
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 7: But when I put that little detail in, I realized

806
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,920
Speaker 7: that book wasn't published till nineteen eighty eight, so I

807
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 7: had to push it back.

808
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:46,640
Speaker 2: You, sir, are a diabolical creature so good the Pit

809
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: of the Abyss.

810
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 7: Hartford, Connecticut would ban me in an instant.

811
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 1: You're an agent of the dark.

812
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:56,879
Speaker 2: Well you know what I had fun too, me too,

813
00:47:57,080 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 2: Yeah too, hete yong saw thought, what'd you think?

814
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:06,440
Speaker 1: Get out? That is the elder language that they speak

815
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: in the mythos. So thank you for coming on again.

816
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,240
Speaker 1: As always the things we were required to say. Uh,

817
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: you win the battle, but not the war will be back.

818
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:18,440
Speaker 1: We'll get you next time, my pretty, you have.

819
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,839
Speaker 7: A really long true one for you Next time.

820
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 1: Death is but time is but a window. Oh happy dagger?

821
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,400
Speaker 7: What's that quote from Ghostbusters to my Lesion madam to

822
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 7: expostulate what majesty should be?

823
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:31,799
Speaker 1: Why dooty is?

824
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 7: Why day is day nine nine? And time is time?

825
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 7: Work to nothing but to waste night, day and time.

826
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,240
Speaker 2: That's not in Ghostbusters too, That's a hamlet. I'm sorry

827
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: speaking of that, I just want to bragged everybody. I'm

828
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: going to see sleep no more tomorrow.

829
00:48:41,960 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: Night, and I am stoke awesome. You know about this?

830
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've heard about this.

831
00:48:46,120 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like a immersive experience where it's like Macbeth

832
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:53,720
Speaker 2: happening in different rooms in this crazy like haunted house

833
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 2: hotel kind of situation.

834
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 7: It was a similar production that started out in New

835
00:48:58,560 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 7: York and got a lot of buzz.

836
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 2: Hey, don't get too familiar, quister. We can't just be

837
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: talking theater with the quizter.

838
00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:06,320
Speaker 7: I'm shaking my fist and the two of you, and

839
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 7: now I'll be away by I.

840
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,720
Speaker 1: Just want to say that I think he is doing

841
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: a good job. Oh, he's doing a great job. You

842
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: are not supposed to be hearing that. Okay, I retract,

843
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:22,040
Speaker 1: I retract that statement. I do want to end with

844
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: what I should have said to him. Death is but

845
00:49:24,719 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: a door, Time is but a window. I'll be back

846
00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: Ghostbusters too. Vigo, it's a great film. His name is Vigo. Wife,

847
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: Do you love Paul? To me? Well, will we be

848
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: able to come back from our crushing defeat today? Folks,

849
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: It's only one way to find out, only.

850
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: One way to find out, and that's tuning in. In

851
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 2: the meantime, you can write us at Ridiculous at HowStuffWorks

852
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 2: dot com. You can hit us up on the social

853
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 2: media's where we are Ridiculous history on Facebook and Instagram,

854
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 2: and you know, most importantly, join us next week when

855
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,799
Speaker 2: we talk about how Richard Nixon may or may not

856
00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 2: have accidentally smuggled a weed for Louis Armstrong.

857
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: An illegal weed, the drug marijuana. Yes, that's the one.

858
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: That's the one.

859
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 2: But thanks to our super producer Casey Pegrim, thanks to

860
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 2: Alex Williams who composed our theme, curses to Jonathan Strickland

861
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:22,160
Speaker 2: the quizt and thanks to Brian Young for writing three

862
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 2: time Society refused to accept books on new science for

863
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 2: HowStuffWorks dot Com.

864
00:50:26,640 --> 00:50:30,759
Speaker 1: And of course, as always, thanks so much to you.

865
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,799
Speaker 1: We hope that you enjoyed this episode. We hope to

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Speaker 1: hear your take on band books as well as the

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Speaker 1: dilemma of progress versus preservation. However you approach that one

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Speaker 1: last question to end on here, I think it's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Are there any books that you feel should be banned?

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Speaker 1: And why fascists? See you next time.

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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.