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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,
Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of
Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from
Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talk with the top experts.
Speaker 4: Welcome to Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron, and today
Speaker 4: we're going to be speaking with Kathleen Martin. Kathleen's interest
Speaker 4: in UFOs and et contact first began back in nineteen
Speaker 4: sixty one, when her aunt and uncle, Betty and Barney Hill,
Speaker 4: had a close encounter in New Hampshire's White Mountains. Kathleen
Speaker 4: was right there when her mom got the call from
Speaker 4: Betty the next morning after the incident. She has devoted
Speaker 4: years and years to painstakingly investigating the anomalous events in
Speaker 4: archival research on their case. This formal investigation of the
Speaker 4: Hills UFO case led to her career as an author, investigator,
Speaker 4: and researcher. From nineteen nineteen one till twenty twenty three,
Speaker 4: she volunteered for the mutual UFO New Network in various
Speaker 4: positions such as the director of Field Investigator Training, and
Speaker 4: she was the founder director of Muffon's Experience her resource team.
Speaker 4: In twenty twelve, Mouffon even recognized her contributions by presenting
Speaker 4: her with a very well deserved Researcher of the Year trophy.
Speaker 4: The Betty and Barney Hill UFO case is absolutely one
Speaker 4: of the most important groundbreaking cases we have and we
Speaker 4: all are very thankful to Kathleen for her careful documentation
Speaker 4: and preservation of the facts of this case. Hi, Kathleen,
Speaker 4: thank you for coming on specifically on this day, which
Speaker 4: happens to be the sixty third anniversary of the incident,
Speaker 4: which of course took place on September nineteenth into the
Speaker 4: morning of September twentieth. And also we just lost James
Speaker 4: Earl Jones, who actually starred in the UFO Incident, which
Speaker 4: was the film version of the story made back in
Speaker 4: nineteen seventy five. How are you doing, Kathleen.
Speaker 5: I'm doing fun. It's great to be with you.
Speaker 4: I'm really glad to have you here. You know, we
Speaker 4: need to start with Benny and Barney Hill case. Even
Speaker 4: though you've talked about it so many times, there's just
Speaker 4: so much to get through today. I really want to
Speaker 4: get this all out for people. It's such an important case.
Speaker 4: And you know, just a few years ago you published
Speaker 4: the anniversary edition of your book Captured with new information
Speaker 4: and new evidence, which I want to get to here
Speaker 4: at a minute. Although we now hear of some cases
Speaker 4: throughout early history which may have been alien encounters, really
Speaker 4: in the modern era, this was the very first experiencer
Speaker 4: case to really hit pop culture, and it introduced people
Speaker 4: to the idea of what they at the time called
Speaker 4: an alien abduction. There are a few things I really
Speaker 4: just genuinely love about this case. This was really not
Speaker 4: at all in the zeitgeist of our culture back in
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty one. All of these claims were pretty much
Speaker 4: unheard of at the time, and now over sixty years later,
Speaker 4: nearly all of their claims really are what we hear
Speaker 4: repeated time and time again from alleged experiencers. These include
Speaker 4: seeing a pancake or disc shaped light in the sky,
Speaker 4: object hovering over a car, the experience of missing time,
Speaker 4: reports of being taken aboard a spaceship, being face to
Speaker 4: face with an alien being, humanoid figure with large eyes,
Speaker 4: medical procedures performed upon them, the fact that Betty was
Speaker 4: shown a starmap and under hypnosis they recounted their abduction
Speaker 4: experience in full detail. All of these things we've heard
Speaker 4: from other experiencers since then. Are those still the temples
Speaker 4: of the experiencer cases that you've investigated today.
Speaker 5: Well, very often it is, at least initially, but over
Speaker 5: time the relationship with the non humans might change so
Speaker 5: that the individual becomes accustomed to having a relationship with
Speaker 5: a non human entity that they see periodically throughout their lifetime,
Speaker 5: and they receive education from that INDI and might receive
Speaker 5: a tour of the craft. Might be healed if there
Speaker 5: is a physiological problem the experience initially that Betty and
Speaker 5: Barney had was a little different than the extent of
Speaker 5: what we hear about today. I think that the ets
Speaker 5: have more compassion toward those who they have cared for
Speaker 5: over a very long period of time. And I use
Speaker 5: the word care for Maybe that's not the appropriate word,
Speaker 5: because oftentimes they're taking DNA, they're monitoring the health of
Speaker 5: the human body. They're doing that sort of thing. They
Speaker 5: might set up experiments for the humans to take part in.
Speaker 5: They're masters in genetics, that sort of thing. We know
Speaker 5: a lot more today, obviously than we did back in
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty one. The Hill case was the first scientifically
Speaker 5: investigated alien abduction in the United States.
Speaker 4: It's not as typical either, as as we've found out
Speaker 4: now through investigations and reports and hypnosis that these typically
Speaker 4: tend to be lifelong experiences, or at least the bulk
Speaker 4: of your life, at least your reproductive years, let's say,
Speaker 4: and there's reoccurring instances of visitation. If I'm correct, isn't
Speaker 4: this more like the Travis Walton more of a one
Speaker 4: off kind of case.
Speaker 5: I doubt it. I have recordings that I have not released.
Speaker 5: Betty did not want people to know about this because
Speaker 5: there was so much ridicule in her life from a
Speaker 5: nasty disinformants who were attempting to ruin her reputation repeatedly
Speaker 5: throughout her lifetime, and so she simply didn't talk about it.
Speaker 5: But she was taken periodically.
Speaker 4: Interesting, fascinating. Actually, another thing that you're bringing up right here,
Speaker 4: which is a good point I want to inject right here,
Speaker 4: is that they didn't really want us to come out
Speaker 4: at all. Betty and Barney were not interested in getting
Speaker 4: their story out. Particularly Barney didn't want to talk about
Speaker 4: this publicly. They were both very well respected in the community, right,
Speaker 4: that's correct.
Speaker 5: In fact, in nineteen sixty five, we were invited to
Speaker 5: Lyndon Johnson's inauguration and went because of our political activity
Speaker 5: in the state of New Hampshire. Barney had been appointed
Speaker 5: to the US Civil Rights Commission in nineteen sixty five
Speaker 5: as a representative for the state of New Hampshire. He
Speaker 5: received an award from Sergeant Shriver for the work that
Speaker 5: he and Betty did with a group of people from
Speaker 5: Rockingham County to set up the Community Action Program using
Speaker 5: federal funding through the Office of Economic Opportunity. He had
Speaker 5: even received an award from the Archdiocese in Manchester, New
Speaker 5: Hampshire for setting up a literacy in the days when
Speaker 5: you had to pass a literacy test in order to vote.
Speaker 5: So they were very active doing good things for people
Speaker 5: in the community. They certainly did not want to be
Speaker 5: known as a couple who believed they had been abducted
Speaker 5: by non humans, right.
Speaker 4: And that goes on today even still, which is shocking,
Speaker 4: but yes, that's still the case, right. That is the
Speaker 4: second important thing about this case to me is that
Speaker 4: obviously it was a multi witness Kate with conscious memories also,
Speaker 4: and they both have the same story pretty much. I think.
Speaker 4: Have you compared their two tapes from the when they
Speaker 4: recounted under hypnosis their individual experiences and how do those
Speaker 4: match up with each other?
Speaker 5: Well? I did a comparative analysis of their statements under
Speaker 5: hypnosis with doctor Simon. I also know their statements in
Speaker 5: all of their reports because I have their reports to
Speaker 5: the Air Force, Deny, cap, et cetera. As a social scientist,
Speaker 5: I wanted to to transcribe their hypnosis tapes ten hours
Speaker 5: and to line up their statements to determine their style
Speaker 5: of description, how they spoke. I found Betty would just
Speaker 5: speak about anything that entered her mind, whereas Bonnie was
Speaker 5: very reserved. He always thought about what he was going
Speaker 5: to say before he said it, even hypnosis, Yes, I
Speaker 5: believe that. Interesting is that that was his style. You
Speaker 5: don't change your style under hypnosis. I was able to
Speaker 5: start with their statements when Bonnie was planning the surprise
Speaker 5: trip for Betty to Niagara Falls and making the decision
Speaker 5: that they were going to move on and travel back
Speaker 5: toward New Hampshire. And very very interesting that all of
Speaker 5: those statements I've lined up and to compare those with
Speaker 5: the statements they made separately to doctor Simon, who hypnotized
Speaker 5: them separately and reinstated amnesia at the end of each session.
Speaker 5: So I did that vis a v Betty's dream material,
Speaker 5: and it was ten days after their experience, and they
Speaker 5: lasted for five days. She had these dreams in the
Speaker 5: morning just as she was waking up. Dreams that you
Speaker 5: dream at that point are hypnotic. They can contain information
Speaker 5: that is from your biological or your biographical history. If
Speaker 5: you're experiencing anxiety about any of this, which Betty obviously was,
Speaker 5: you will add fantasy material to just make yourself feel better.
Speaker 5: So you know, that is why the entities in her
Speaker 5: dreams were very human looking, you know, black hair, eyebrows,
Speaker 5: normal human eyes, wearing Cadet uniform and Cadet caps. That
Speaker 5: sort of thing. That is not what Betty and Barney
Speaker 5: recalled under hypnosis.
Speaker 4: We're going to have to take a break there, Kathleen.
Speaker 4: When we come back, we're going to talk about the
Speaker 4: third incredible thing about this case. You're listening to Beyond
Speaker 4: Contact right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast
Speaker 4: AM Paranormal Podcast Network. Okay, we are back on Beyond Contact.
Speaker 4: We're talking with Kathleen Martin. Kathleen, the third incredible thing
Speaker 4: about this case is the amount of physical evidence that
Speaker 4: is involved. Here. We have two witnesses who, as you
Speaker 4: just noted, have the same story, the same recollection under
Speaker 4: hypnosis of what happened to them other witnesses, including yourself,
Speaker 4: who are adjacent to this incident. There was a possible
Speaker 4: radiation on the car. There are spots on the back
Speaker 4: of the car, Betty's torn dress, Barney's shoes were badly scuffed.
Speaker 4: There's a broken binocular strap. There's the fact that both
Speaker 4: of their watches stopped working, and the fact that these
Speaker 4: people's lives were changed forever after their experience. And now
Speaker 4: there's some new evidence that you have uncovered, including there's
Speaker 4: there's some radar evidence. Apparently it turns out that there
Speaker 4: I believe twelve to fourteen other people who witnessed a
Speaker 4: large light in the sky right where they were correct
Speaker 4: And then this material that you found on Betty's dressed
Speaker 4: and you had scientifically tested. Could you share with us
Speaker 4: all this new evidence that you've uncovered recently.
Speaker 5: First of all, you mentioned radiation on the trunk of
Speaker 5: the car. There were highly polished spots there, about a
Speaker 5: dozen or so of them, the same color the blue
Speaker 5: color of the vehicle, only highly polished concentric circles, and
Speaker 5: there was a magnetic field around those circles in the
Speaker 5: area where that craft was causing these codelike buzzing sounds
Speaker 5: to strike the car. Just before they lost full consciousness,
Speaker 5: the car vibrated. They felt a tingling sensation passed through
Speaker 5: their bodies, and then their memories began to fade. I
Speaker 5: saw those spots in the trunk of the car within
Speaker 5: a day or two of the time the incident occurred.
Speaker 5: My family drove to Betty's and Barney's home. I saw
Speaker 5: Betty's watch that had stopped. I just recently realized that
Speaker 5: she set her watch when she arrived in the house.
Speaker 5: She had wound it at ten oh five pm the
Speaker 5: previous evening, and the watch had for some reason just stopped.
Speaker 5: She did not note the time at which had stopped,
Speaker 5: but she said it to the time of the clock
Speaker 5: in her home, and I have her watch. It reads
Speaker 5: five sixteen, So it was sixteen am when she went
Speaker 5: into her house after she arrived home. So that clarifies
Speaker 5: that question about what time they arrived home and whether
Speaker 5: or not they were missing time. Yes, they were missing
Speaker 5: at least two hours. They had anticipated an arrival between
Speaker 5: two and three am. Betty's dress was torn in several places.
Speaker 5: The back of the dress, the top of the zipper
Speaker 5: was torn. The thick zipper fabric was torn the stitching,
Speaker 5: and that corresponded when the examiner was attempting to remove
Speaker 5: her dress but did not know how to unzip a zipper,
Speaker 5: so he tore the dress and then she assisted him.
Speaker 5: The dress dropped to the floor, and the lower part
Speaker 5: of the dress that hit the floor grew this pink
Speaker 5: powdery substance on it. Also, the hem was torn down
Speaker 5: on one side, the side where she tried to escape,
Speaker 5: and she kicked one of these entities and it tore
Speaker 5: the lining of the dress on that side as well.
Speaker 5: The dress was heavily saturated with that pink pottery substance
Speaker 5: around her sleeves too, where the entities had wrapped their
Speaker 5: long hands around her up her arms as they were
Speaker 5: escorting her. I happened to be at the University of
Speaker 5: New Hampshire with Ben Hansen. He was interviewing me. At
Speaker 5: the University of New Hampshire. I set up the archival
Speaker 5: collection there. Betty left instructions for me to go through
Speaker 5: her archival collection and selectively choose the files that I
Speaker 5: thought belonged there, So that's what I did. We were
Speaker 5: examining the dress. We turned it inside out and I
Speaker 5: had had the back of the lining tested. I'd taken
Speaker 5: samples from the underarms from near the zipper very areas,
Speaker 5: but this time Ben was examining the front of the lining.
Speaker 5: He was started to ask me about three spots that
Speaker 5: were on the lining of the dress that looked like blood,
Speaker 5: and they were in the area of Betty's navel. Hemined, yes,
Speaker 5: that's correct, and so he examined the outside of the dress.
Speaker 5: There was no stain on the exterior of the dress,
Speaker 5: only on the lining, and it appeared to have come
Speaker 5: from where it was next to her body. I am
Speaker 5: the individual who gives permission for scientists to do studies
Speaker 5: on that dress, and I am the only person who's
Speaker 5: permitted to cut a sample. So I cut it for Ben,
Speaker 5: and then I took the sample home with me until
Speaker 5: we were able to find a laboratory. And I thought
Speaker 5: of the Mutual UFO network. I knew that they had
Speaker 5: a biological scientist, and so I contacted that scientist and
Speaker 5: asked her if we could get her to do a
Speaker 5: DNA analysis. I also had a disc with Betty's blood.
Speaker 5: I would send away a little section of it along
Speaker 5: with a sample, and so we did send it to
Speaker 5: Muffon's laboratory. DNA testing was conducted, and what she discovered
Speaker 5: was that it was DNA from Betty's body. The blood
Speaker 5: sample was too old to determine whether it was blood.
Speaker 5: It appeared to Ben to be blood, but the blood
Speaker 5: samples were simply too old, so the scientist could only
Speaker 5: say that it was fluid from Betty's body in the
Speaker 5: area of her navel, and so yes, that might indicate
Speaker 5: that Betty's memory of having a needle inserted into her
Speaker 5: navel it was correct, and we know that over the
Speaker 5: past how many sixty some odd years experiencers have reported
Speaker 5: this time and time again. I had also sent three
Speaker 5: samples of the dress in different areas to doctor David
Speaker 5: Soriano from the University of Pittsburgh at Bradford and he
Speaker 5: is a tenured professor in the chemistry department thirty five
Speaker 5: years experience. He worked with another tenured professor who also
Speaker 5: had thirty five years experience, training a graduate student to
Speaker 5: use X ray fluorescence to detect heavier elements on that dress.
Speaker 5: They detected three heavier elements. One of those elements had
Speaker 5: a prosaic explanation because it was used in the die
Speaker 5: in the period of the time in which the fabric
Speaker 5: of Betty's dress was dyed. The other or two were
Speaker 5: extraordinarily rare and expensive. One of them was roodium, which
Speaker 5: is one of the rarest and most valuable precious minerals
Speaker 5: on Earth, with a higher melting point and lower density
Speaker 5: than platinum, and the other was tulorium, which is rare
Speaker 5: in the Earth's crust but more abundant in the universe.
Speaker 5: So I mean these could be the smoking gun. This
Speaker 5: was very exciting information to receive. They could think of
Speaker 5: no earthly explanation for how these metals were deposited on
Speaker 5: Betty's dress.
Speaker 4: It's incredible. And the rodium being one of the rarest
Speaker 4: elements on Earth, how does that end up by this
Speaker 4: woman's dress in nineteen sixty one. It just seems so unlikely.
Speaker 4: It's not like she worked in a lab or. It's
Speaker 4: it's something that you should be exposed to say such
Speaker 4: a thing, right.
Speaker 5: That's correct. I mean I can only think that when
Speaker 5: her dress dropped to the floor of the craft, that
Speaker 5: that might have been the time that these fragments were
Speaker 5: deposited onto her dress.
Speaker 4: I love that. It's another piece of physical evidence too,
Speaker 4: that you know we have scientific you have those reports.
Speaker 4: I'm sure, yes. Now you've kept everything so diligently. I
Speaker 4: think that really supports the case, and I think it's wonderful. Again,
Speaker 4: that's one of the strongest things about the Benny and
Speaker 4: Barney Hill Cakes. Let's take another break here, and when
Speaker 4: we come back, I want to talk to Kathleen about
Speaker 4: the starmap, the infamous starmap that Betty was shown when
Speaker 4: she was aboard the craft. It's very interesting. You are
Speaker 4: listening to Beyond Contact right here on the iHeartRadio Coast
Speaker 4: to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network. We are back on
Speaker 4: Beyond Contact. It's Captain Ron talking to Kathleen Martin about
Speaker 4: the Benny and Barney Hill case. And Kathleen, let's talk
Speaker 4: about this interesting aspect of the case, the star map
Speaker 4: that Betty was shown. Not only is the map interesting,
Speaker 4: the way she was shown the map is interesting. It
Speaker 4: was sort of a I don't know how to describe it,
Speaker 4: a holographic projection. That's interesting because again, this was nineteen
Speaker 4: sixty one and that sort of thing wasn't really thought of.
Speaker 4: They didn't have monitors and phones, and just the idea
Speaker 4: that this was sort of a digital thing, to me
Speaker 4: is another interesting part of it. Can you tell us
Speaker 4: how that map was presented to her and then what
Speaker 4: you found out about this map afterwards?
Speaker 5: When Betty was on the craft after her examination had
Speaker 5: been completed, she said to the leader that she was
Speaker 5: beginning to trust at that time. I know that you're
Speaker 5: not from here, where's your home port? And he produced
Speaker 5: this three dimensional star map, and there were stars of
Speaker 5: various sizes and colors blowing on this map. She even
Speaker 5: compared it to like looking out a window and seeing
Speaker 5: these stars. These stars were connected some in the foreground
Speaker 5: by five solid lines. There were solid lines connecting other stars.
Speaker 5: There were two solid lines going to our sun, and
Speaker 5: then there were dotted lines going to other stars. So
Speaker 5: twelve stars connected by lines, and sixteen stars in all
Speaker 5: on this map. Doctor Simon said to Betty, if you
Speaker 5: can remember this accurately and it doesn't trouble you too much,
Speaker 5: go home and sketch this star map from memory. And
Speaker 5: fortunately Betty had a photographic memory and she sketched it.
Speaker 5: The only problem she had is that she was using
Speaker 5: pencil and paper and she saw it as a three
Speaker 5: dimensional map. And it was published in the first book
Speaker 5: ever written. It's also in Capture The Betty and Barney
Speaker 5: Hill UFO Experience. Now, once that was published, Marjorie Fish
Speaker 5: who was a brilliant woman from Ohio who ended up
Speaker 5: working at the nuclear laboratory, the Oakridge Nuclear Laboratory. But
Speaker 5: Marjorie had an interest. She was skeptical, but she thought
Speaker 5: that if this place actually existed somewhere in our galaxy,
Speaker 5: that maybe she would find a match. Now, there were
Speaker 5: no computers that she could use in that timeframe, or
Speaker 5: no Xerox machines for photocopy machines. She had to go
Speaker 5: to the university in hand copy all of the distance
Speaker 5: data on all of the stars in our local galactic
Speaker 5: neighborhood out fifty four light years, and she had to
Speaker 5: know the characteristics of those stars. And then she would
Speaker 5: construct a three dimensional model using a frame silk thread
Speaker 5: and these beads of various sizes and colors. Imagine the
Speaker 5: math that she had to do to know where to
Speaker 5: place every one of those stars in its proper location.
Speaker 5: She had built fourteen It had taken several years, and
Speaker 5: she didn't find a match. She only found a match
Speaker 5: after we had made scientific progress, we had developed technology
Speaker 5: where we could get a better reading on the distance data.
Speaker 5: She went back to the university astronomical catalog and copied
Speaker 5: down the new distance data and started rearranging those stars,
Speaker 5: and finally she had a map for Betty's map. So
Speaker 5: Coral Lorenzen, who was the director of APRO at the
Speaker 5: time contacted Stanton Friedman to evaluate her. If he thought
Speaker 5: she was a credible scientifically oriented individual worthy of having
Speaker 5: her work vetted by astrophysicists, he could make that recommendation
Speaker 5: and find the scientist to vet Marjorie's work, and that's
Speaker 5: what he did, such as Alan Heinek, a statistician, and
Speaker 5: also the Ohio State University when they had computers vetted
Speaker 5: Marjorie's work and all said that her work was accurate.
Speaker 5: And so the chance of this happening just by accident
Speaker 5: that Betty would draw this confus uration is astronomical at
Speaker 5: the moment, yes, and.
Speaker 4: Just to think that she could do it from memory
Speaker 4: days later, you know, you remembered something. As if there's
Speaker 4: not enough going on being confronted with an alien being
Speaker 4: on a spaceship, she's still able to remember what she saw,
Speaker 4: and that is truly, truly remarkable. You've worked on a
Speaker 4: lot of these large studies of nearly five thousand experiencers,
Speaker 4: including the Edgar Mitchell Free Organization, and looked at the
Speaker 4: surveys by those experiences. I think you said about twelve
Speaker 4: percent of respondents say they are shown some kind of
Speaker 4: a map. Has anyone ever pulled together these different maps
Speaker 4: and compared them to Betties or even to each other.
Speaker 4: To me, we have an opportunity here to really add
Speaker 4: credibility if these things line up together, and I wonder
Speaker 4: if any of them like match up with the Dogon
Speaker 4: tribe or any other map.
Speaker 5: I personally have not asked anyone who participated in our
Speaker 5: studies to sketch the maps that they were and then
Speaker 5: find an astrophysicists who could work on that who would
Speaker 5: be willing to do that. I do know that there
Speaker 5: were star map researchers who were looking for other stars
Speaker 5: in our galaxy that would match up with Betty's map,
Speaker 5: and some were able to do something find something similar.
Speaker 5: The problem is they were dissimilar than the stars on
Speaker 5: Betty's map because all of the stars on Betty's map
Speaker 5: were sun like stars, although only five percent of the
Speaker 5: stars in our local galactic neighborhood are sunlike, and all
Speaker 5: the sun like stars in that volume of space were
Speaker 5: on Betty's map. In fact, one of the astrophysicists stated
Speaker 5: that if we lived in the Zeta reticular star system
Speaker 5: and we had developed the technology to travel through space,
Speaker 5: to explore space, that is precisely the route that we
Speaker 5: would take because all of the stars are in a plane,
Speaker 5: so it's easier to go from star to star. It
Speaker 5: all makes sense. And so that was a tremendous finding.
Speaker 5: And I know there are people who have said that
Speaker 5: Marjorie Fish before she died, she conceded that her star
Speaker 5: map was not accurate. That was a misquote. Stanton quite
Speaker 5: concerned about this when we received this information. He contacted
Speaker 5: Marjorie's niece and it was a family member who was
Speaker 5: speaking to the funeral director who somehow there was a misunderstanding.
Speaker 5: Marjorie's work still holds up today, and a new study
Speaker 5: was done I believe it was in two thousand and three,
Speaker 5: twenty two hundred and eighty nine different computer models. Wow,
Speaker 5: and still Marjorie Fish's identification. If Betty's map is still the.
Speaker 4: Closest, that's great clarification as to what really happened. That's
Speaker 4: really great. Thank you for sharing that. There's been countless
Speaker 4: articles written about this incredible case over the years. Of course,
Speaker 4: in the famous book The Interrupted Journey by John Fuller,
Speaker 4: which was written back in nineteen sixty six, I believe
Speaker 4: you said that the publisher would only publish this book
Speaker 4: if he added some embellishments to make it more sensational.
Speaker 4: This infuriates me, as for some reason, these incredible stories
Speaker 4: of these people's claims aren't amazing enough. We have to
Speaker 4: embellish them. To me, this hurts our community, That hurts
Speaker 4: our stories. Then these stories are not being accurately portrayed.
Speaker 4: This famously also happened with Travis Walton, as I'm sure
Speaker 4: you know with Fire in the Sky that movie. I
Speaker 4: genuinely don't understand why this is necessary. What are your
Speaker 4: thoughts about what's happening in ufology, particularly with regards to
Speaker 4: the Benny and Barney Hill case, the way it has
Speaker 4: to be portrayed this way, why they can't do it accurately? I.
Speaker 5: As a researcher, as an investigator, attempt to be as
Speaker 5: accurate as I possibly can, try to be one hundred
Speaker 5: percent accurate in everything I do, backed up very carefully
Speaker 5: by evidence, by archival records. The others the movie makers
Speaker 5: are entertaining the public. That's the difference between a documentary
Speaker 5: and a movie. Right to entertain the public.
Speaker 4: Well, let's take a break right there, Kathleen. When we
Speaker 4: come back, we're going to ask you about some of
Speaker 4: the other cases that you've looked at. You're listening to
Speaker 4: Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM
Speaker 4: Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact, Kathleen.
Speaker 4: You were just talking about how you've kept these records
Speaker 4: over the years for Benny and Barney Hill. How were
Speaker 4: you able to stay objective when looking at the Benny
Speaker 4: and Barney Hill case. Since you're so closely involved in.
Speaker 5: It, it was important to me to be unbiased. I
Speaker 5: committed myself to the idea that if I discovered that
Speaker 5: this didn't really happen, that it was just a mistake
Speaker 5: made by Betty and Barney, then I would reveal this
Speaker 5: as an innocent mistake. But the more I investigated, the
Speaker 5: more evidence I collected, I realized that this was absolutely
Speaker 5: true and under hypnos separate hypnosis, their accounts matched. This
Speaker 5: happened several times, plus all of this physical evidence. My
Speaker 5: husband and I drove the entire route that Betty and
Speaker 5: Barney drove in the same time frame, on the same
Speaker 5: roads when possible, stopping in the same locations. They were
Speaker 5: like twenty years younger than my husband and I. When
Speaker 5: we did this.
Speaker 4: I love that you're very careful with all of this,
Speaker 4: and you could tell how measured you are. And you've
Speaker 4: been that way the whole time. I mean, you've been
Speaker 4: recounting the story years and years and years. It's truly remarkable.
Speaker 4: I know you went back and you even helped Betty
Speaker 4: as she approached the end of her life. What was
Speaker 4: her takeaway thoughts about the experience for her at the
Speaker 4: end of her life.
Speaker 5: Well, I was caring for her in her home as
Speaker 5: she was suffering from fatal cancer of the lungs in
Speaker 5: a great deal of pain. She also had a brain tumor,
Speaker 5: and we had hospice care for the last several months
Speaker 5: of her life. And so we would review her life
Speaker 5: and we would reflect upon that experience and ask, if
Speaker 5: you could undo this, would you would you prefer that
Speaker 5: this had not happened? And she said, although it was
Speaker 5: difficult for them, particularly in terms of the disinformation that
Speaker 5: was disseminated regarding the case, she would have done it
Speaker 5: again because she had met astronauts from another planet and
Speaker 5: she was very pleased to have done that, and also
Speaker 5: that she had met and had a relationship with people
Speaker 5: that she never would have encountered as a social worker
Speaker 5: in civil rights advocate, women's advocate, that sort of thing.
Speaker 5: She met some top ranking scientists who are very interested
Speaker 5: in her case, military officers who were very interested and supportive.
Speaker 4: I love that she calls them astronauts. That's really cute.
Speaker 4: I like that. But you are also a member of
Speaker 4: MUFIN since ninety one. Correct, You've looked at so many cases,
Speaker 4: well beyond just your aunt and uncle's case. After all
Speaker 4: of this research, years and years and years, what do
Speaker 4: you think are the most compelling cases or the most
Speaker 4: solid piece of evidence that we have today for et visitation.
Speaker 5: It's really hard to say. One case is the smoking gun.
Speaker 5: I've worked on many cases privately and a few for
Speaker 5: the mutual UFO network. I discovered that I had to
Speaker 5: work as an independent investigator so that I could keep
Speaker 5: a long term relationship with people who were being taken,
Speaker 5: so that we could collect evidence over time. They needed
Speaker 5: to know how to collect evidence, what to look for.
Speaker 5: So I had one extraordinarily compelling case from Canada, Winnipeg,
Speaker 5: and and this experiencer had initially reported his close encounter
Speaker 5: to moufon. We didn't have an investigator in that part
Speaker 5: of Canada at the time. So Muffon asked me to
Speaker 5: investigate the case. And he had this amateur astronomer had
Speaker 5: this close encounter and he said, I think I'm being
Speaker 5: taken and so we worked together. He had a lot
Speaker 5: of photographic equipment set up to attempt to capture evidence
Speaker 5: and he did. He sent me a great deal some
Speaker 5: incredible patterned marks on his body. He finally contacted me
Speaker 5: and said, I'm very afraid that i have a fatal
Speaker 5: case of cancer and I'm going to have surgery. He
Speaker 5: sent me a photograph of his neck. He had lymphoma,
Speaker 5: very enlarged nodes on his neck, and I just said
Speaker 5: to him, I have worked with several people who have
Speaker 5: the ets for healing. If you can meditate, become very
Speaker 5: relaxed and attempt to communicate with them a few times
Speaker 5: a day, ask them for healing. And I said, I
Speaker 5: meditate too. I will do the same thing, ask them
Speaker 5: to heal you well. Within a couple of weeks, he
Speaker 5: sent me a photograph of his neck. There was no
Speaker 5: longer those huge nodes on his neck. He sent me video.
Speaker 5: The video showed an orb that entered through the ceiling
Speaker 5: and slid down the wall. It was a beautiful orb
Speaker 5: sort of baby blue around the exterior, then white and
Speaker 5: shades of turquoise, and then sort of an acre colored center.
Speaker 5: And it morphed as it flew across the room and
Speaker 5: then it hovered above his body. It put down, or
Speaker 5: it might have just been on the film from it
Speaker 5: diving down into his body. He then became unconscious and
Speaker 5: he woke up twelve hours later and he was healed.
Speaker 5: When he went in for the surgery, he did not
Speaker 5: know how to explain to the surgeon anything that had happened.
Speaker 5: He shared his story his experience with his physician, who
Speaker 5: believed him his primary care physician. He even had an
Speaker 5: implant removed by him, but he was healed.
Speaker 4: That is a fascinating case right there. I'll tell you it.
Speaker 5: Was an incredibly fascinating case. And if we have time,
Speaker 5: I have another one that was so compelling. So there
Speaker 5: were two paranormal investigators that Stanton Friedman had introduced me to,
Speaker 5: and they were seeking a confirmed experiencer so that they
Speaker 5: could set up appointment to go to this experiencer's home
Speaker 5: to try to capture EVP recordings and maybe video recordings
Speaker 5: of a UFO and this experiencer could call in craft.
Speaker 5: They went up there, they had their equipment set up.
Speaker 5: It's ten o'clock at night and they're outside looking the
Speaker 5: experiencers calling in craft, and something shows up beside the
Speaker 5: moon and starts descending in their direction. They're asking questions,
Speaker 5: they're receiving responses. Suddenly they find themselves in a different location.
Speaker 5: They're not holding their equipment any longer. They're holding each other.
Speaker 5: They're feeling nauseated. They're weaving back and forth. Don't know
Speaker 5: what's happened. They don't realize time has passed. They find
Speaker 5: their equipment under a bush. They pick up their camera.
Speaker 5: They go inside the experiences home. His wife meets them
Speaker 5: and says, where have you been? Said, well, we've just
Speaker 5: been outside in the backyard the whole time. And she said, no,
Speaker 5: you were not. I was looking for you. You weren't there. Well,
Speaker 5: they were missing about two hours. Well, the researchers drove
Speaker 5: home and they started later to look at any evidence
Speaker 5: they might have collected. Well, on that camera, it showed
Speaker 5: two beams of light coming out. They were kind of
Speaker 5: indigo colored, and then you see entities starting to drop
Speaker 5: off those beams. They're not fully materialized, but they become
Speaker 5: more solid as they moved toward the ground. You see
Speaker 5: one seated on the ground. He is obviously wearing some
Speaker 5: kind of technology on his back, becomes enveloped in blue
Speaker 5: light and he rises into the air, crosses in front
Speaker 5: of that screen with a blue light in one hand,
Speaker 5: and he's moving back and forth. You can see that technology.
Speaker 5: He's sitting on technology on his head, looking back and forth.
Speaker 5: I think he's looking for those humans that he wants
Speaker 5: to capture. There were other entities as well, non human
Speaker 5: entities wearing headgear. Just remarkable video evidence.
Speaker 4: That's incredible. That is absolutely incredible. You don't get much
Speaker 4: video evidence like that of her. And thank you, Kathleen.
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it. This was fascinating information and we
Speaker 4: all appreciated all the work you do for our community.
Speaker 5: Thank you. It was a pleasure.
Speaker 4: Well, we will be back next week with an all
Speaker 4: new episode. You can follow me Captain Ron on Twitter
Speaker 4: and Instagram at civ Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by
Speaker 4: checking out contact inthedesert dot com. Stay open minded and rationalist.
Speaker 4: We explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and
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