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Speaker 1: You're listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast Day

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Speaker 1: and Paranormal Podcast Network, where we offer you podcasts of

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Speaker 1: the paranormal, supernatural, and the unexplained. Get ready now for

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Speaker 1: Beyond Contact with Captain Wrong.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to our podcast. Please be aware the thoughts and

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Speaker 2: opinions expressed by the host are their thoughts and opinions

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Speaker 2: only and do not reflect those of iHeartMedia, iHeartRadio, Coast

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Speaker 2: and associates. We would like to encourage you to do

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Speaker 2: your own research and discover the subject matter for yourself.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, it's Captain Ron and each week on Beyond Contact,

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Speaker 3: we'll explore the latest news in ufology, discuss some of

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Speaker 3: the classic cases, and bring you the latest information from

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Speaker 3: the newest cases as we talk with the top experts.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to Beyond Contact. I am Captain Ron, and today

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Speaker 4: we're going to be speaking with Kathleen Martin. Kathleen's interest

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Speaker 4: in UFOs and et contact first began back in nineteen

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Speaker 4: sixty one, when her aunt and uncle, Betty and Barney Hill,

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Speaker 4: had a close encounter in New Hampshire's White Mountains. Kathleen

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Speaker 4: was right there when her mom got the call from

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Speaker 4: Betty the next morning after the incident. She has devoted

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Speaker 4: years and years to painstakingly investigating the anomalous events in

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Speaker 4: archival research on their case. This formal investigation of the

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Speaker 4: Hills UFO case led to her career as an author, investigator,

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Speaker 4: and researcher. From nineteen nineteen one till twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 4: she volunteered for the mutual UFO New Network in various

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Speaker 4: positions such as the director of Field Investigator Training, and

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Speaker 4: she was the founder director of Muffon's Experience her resource team.

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Speaker 4: In twenty twelve, Mouffon even recognized her contributions by presenting

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Speaker 4: her with a very well deserved Researcher of the Year trophy.

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Speaker 4: The Betty and Barney Hill UFO case is absolutely one

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Speaker 4: of the most important groundbreaking cases we have and we

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Speaker 4: all are very thankful to Kathleen for her careful documentation

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Speaker 4: and preservation of the facts of this case. Hi, Kathleen,

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Speaker 4: thank you for coming on specifically on this day, which

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Speaker 4: happens to be the sixty third anniversary of the incident,

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Speaker 4: which of course took place on September nineteenth into the

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Speaker 4: morning of September twentieth. And also we just lost James

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Speaker 4: Earl Jones, who actually starred in the UFO Incident, which

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Speaker 4: was the film version of the story made back in

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Speaker 4: nineteen seventy five. How are you doing, Kathleen.

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Speaker 5: I'm doing fun. It's great to be with you.

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Speaker 4: I'm really glad to have you here. You know, we

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Speaker 4: need to start with Benny and Barney Hill case. Even

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Speaker 4: though you've talked about it so many times, there's just

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Speaker 4: so much to get through today. I really want to

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Speaker 4: get this all out for people. It's such an important case.

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Speaker 4: And you know, just a few years ago you published

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Speaker 4: the anniversary edition of your book Captured with new information

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Speaker 4: and new evidence, which I want to get to here

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Speaker 4: at a minute. Although we now hear of some cases

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Speaker 4: throughout early history which may have been alien encounters, really

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Speaker 4: in the modern era, this was the very first experiencer

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Speaker 4: case to really hit pop culture, and it introduced people

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Speaker 4: to the idea of what they at the time called

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Speaker 4: an alien abduction. There are a few things I really

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Speaker 4: just genuinely love about this case. This was really not

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Speaker 4: at all in the zeitgeist of our culture back in

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Speaker 4: nineteen sixty one. All of these claims were pretty much

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Speaker 4: unheard of at the time, and now over sixty years later,

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Speaker 4: nearly all of their claims really are what we hear

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Speaker 4: repeated time and time again from alleged experiencers. These include

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Speaker 4: seeing a pancake or disc shaped light in the sky,

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Speaker 4: object hovering over a car, the experience of missing time,

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Speaker 4: reports of being taken aboard a spaceship, being face to

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Speaker 4: face with an alien being, humanoid figure with large eyes,

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Speaker 4: medical procedures performed upon them, the fact that Betty was

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Speaker 4: shown a starmap and under hypnosis they recounted their abduction

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Speaker 4: experience in full detail. All of these things we've heard

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Speaker 4: from other experiencers since then. Are those still the temples

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Speaker 4: of the experiencer cases that you've investigated today.

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Speaker 5: Well, very often it is, at least initially, but over

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Speaker 5: time the relationship with the non humans might change so

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Speaker 5: that the individual becomes accustomed to having a relationship with

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Speaker 5: a non human entity that they see periodically throughout their lifetime,

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Speaker 5: and they receive education from that INDI and might receive

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Speaker 5: a tour of the craft. Might be healed if there

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Speaker 5: is a physiological problem the experience initially that Betty and

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Speaker 5: Barney had was a little different than the extent of

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Speaker 5: what we hear about today. I think that the ets

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Speaker 5: have more compassion toward those who they have cared for

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Speaker 5: over a very long period of time. And I use

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Speaker 5: the word care for Maybe that's not the appropriate word,

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Speaker 5: because oftentimes they're taking DNA, they're monitoring the health of

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Speaker 5: the human body. They're doing that sort of thing. They

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Speaker 5: might set up experiments for the humans to take part in.

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Speaker 5: They're masters in genetics, that sort of thing. We know

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Speaker 5: a lot more today, obviously than we did back in

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Speaker 5: nineteen sixty one. The Hill case was the first scientifically

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Speaker 5: investigated alien abduction in the United States.

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Speaker 4: It's not as typical either, as as we've found out

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Speaker 4: now through investigations and reports and hypnosis that these typically

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Speaker 4: tend to be lifelong experiences, or at least the bulk

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Speaker 4: of your life, at least your reproductive years, let's say,

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Speaker 4: and there's reoccurring instances of visitation. If I'm correct, isn't

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Speaker 4: this more like the Travis Walton more of a one

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Speaker 4: off kind of case.

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Speaker 5: I doubt it. I have recordings that I have not released.

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Speaker 5: Betty did not want people to know about this because

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Speaker 5: there was so much ridicule in her life from a

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Speaker 5: nasty disinformants who were attempting to ruin her reputation repeatedly

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Speaker 5: throughout her lifetime, and so she simply didn't talk about it.

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Speaker 5: But she was taken periodically.

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Speaker 4: Interesting, fascinating. Actually, another thing that you're bringing up right here,

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Speaker 4: which is a good point I want to inject right here,

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Speaker 4: is that they didn't really want us to come out

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Speaker 4: at all. Betty and Barney were not interested in getting

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Speaker 4: their story out. Particularly Barney didn't want to talk about

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Speaker 4: this publicly. They were both very well respected in the community, right,

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Speaker 4: that's correct.

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Speaker 5: In fact, in nineteen sixty five, we were invited to

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Speaker 5: Lyndon Johnson's inauguration and went because of our political activity

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Speaker 5: in the state of New Hampshire. Barney had been appointed

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Speaker 5: to the US Civil Rights Commission in nineteen sixty five

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Speaker 5: as a representative for the state of New Hampshire. He

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Speaker 5: received an award from Sergeant Shriver for the work that

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Speaker 5: he and Betty did with a group of people from

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Speaker 5: Rockingham County to set up the Community Action Program using

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Speaker 5: federal funding through the Office of Economic Opportunity. He had

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Speaker 5: even received an award from the Archdiocese in Manchester, New

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Speaker 5: Hampshire for setting up a literacy in the days when

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Speaker 5: you had to pass a literacy test in order to vote.

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Speaker 5: So they were very active doing good things for people

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Speaker 5: in the community. They certainly did not want to be

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Speaker 5: known as a couple who believed they had been abducted

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Speaker 5: by non humans, right.

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Speaker 4: And that goes on today even still, which is shocking,

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Speaker 4: but yes, that's still the case, right. That is the

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Speaker 4: second important thing about this case to me is that

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Speaker 4: obviously it was a multi witness Kate with conscious memories also,

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Speaker 4: and they both have the same story pretty much. I think.

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Speaker 4: Have you compared their two tapes from the when they

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Speaker 4: recounted under hypnosis their individual experiences and how do those

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Speaker 4: match up with each other?

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Speaker 5: Well? I did a comparative analysis of their statements under

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Speaker 5: hypnosis with doctor Simon. I also know their statements in

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Speaker 5: all of their reports because I have their reports to

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Speaker 5: the Air Force, Deny, cap, et cetera. As a social scientist,

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Speaker 5: I wanted to to transcribe their hypnosis tapes ten hours

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Speaker 5: and to line up their statements to determine their style

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Speaker 5: of description, how they spoke. I found Betty would just

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Speaker 5: speak about anything that entered her mind, whereas Bonnie was

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Speaker 5: very reserved. He always thought about what he was going

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Speaker 5: to say before he said it, even hypnosis, Yes, I

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Speaker 5: believe that. Interesting is that that was his style. You

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Speaker 5: don't change your style under hypnosis. I was able to

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Speaker 5: start with their statements when Bonnie was planning the surprise

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Speaker 5: trip for Betty to Niagara Falls and making the decision

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Speaker 5: that they were going to move on and travel back

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Speaker 5: toward New Hampshire. And very very interesting that all of

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Speaker 5: those statements I've lined up and to compare those with

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Speaker 5: the statements they made separately to doctor Simon, who hypnotized

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Speaker 5: them separately and reinstated amnesia at the end of each session.

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Speaker 5: So I did that vis a v Betty's dream material,

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Speaker 5: and it was ten days after their experience, and they

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Speaker 5: lasted for five days. She had these dreams in the

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Speaker 5: morning just as she was waking up. Dreams that you

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Speaker 5: dream at that point are hypnotic. They can contain information

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Speaker 5: that is from your biological or your biographical history. If

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Speaker 5: you're experiencing anxiety about any of this, which Betty obviously was,

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Speaker 5: you will add fantasy material to just make yourself feel better.

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Speaker 5: So you know, that is why the entities in her

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Speaker 5: dreams were very human looking, you know, black hair, eyebrows,

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Speaker 5: normal human eyes, wearing Cadet uniform and Cadet caps. That

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Speaker 5: sort of thing. That is not what Betty and Barney

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Speaker 5: recalled under hypnosis.

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Speaker 4: We're going to have to take a break there, Kathleen.

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Speaker 4: When we come back, we're going to talk about the

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Speaker 4: third incredible thing about this case. You're listening to Beyond

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Speaker 4: Contact right here on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast

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Speaker 4: AM Paranormal Podcast Network. Okay, we are back on Beyond Contact.

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Speaker 4: We're talking with Kathleen Martin. Kathleen, the third incredible thing

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Speaker 4: about this case is the amount of physical evidence that

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Speaker 4: is involved. Here. We have two witnesses who, as you

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Speaker 4: just noted, have the same story, the same recollection under

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Speaker 4: hypnosis of what happened to them other witnesses, including yourself,

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Speaker 4: who are adjacent to this incident. There was a possible

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Speaker 4: radiation on the car. There are spots on the back

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Speaker 4: of the car, Betty's torn dress, Barney's shoes were badly scuffed.

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Speaker 4: There's a broken binocular strap. There's the fact that both

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Speaker 4: of their watches stopped working, and the fact that these

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Speaker 4: people's lives were changed forever after their experience. And now

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Speaker 4: there's some new evidence that you have uncovered, including there's

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Speaker 4: there's some radar evidence. Apparently it turns out that there

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Speaker 4: I believe twelve to fourteen other people who witnessed a

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Speaker 4: large light in the sky right where they were correct

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Speaker 4: And then this material that you found on Betty's dressed

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Speaker 4: and you had scientifically tested. Could you share with us

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Speaker 4: all this new evidence that you've uncovered recently.

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Speaker 5: First of all, you mentioned radiation on the trunk of

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Speaker 5: the car. There were highly polished spots there, about a

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Speaker 5: dozen or so of them, the same color the blue

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Speaker 5: color of the vehicle, only highly polished concentric circles, and

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Speaker 5: there was a magnetic field around those circles in the

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Speaker 5: area where that craft was causing these codelike buzzing sounds

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Speaker 5: to strike the car. Just before they lost full consciousness,

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Speaker 5: the car vibrated. They felt a tingling sensation passed through

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Speaker 5: their bodies, and then their memories began to fade. I

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Speaker 5: saw those spots in the trunk of the car within

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Speaker 5: a day or two of the time the incident occurred.

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Speaker 5: My family drove to Betty's and Barney's home. I saw

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Speaker 5: Betty's watch that had stopped. I just recently realized that

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Speaker 5: she set her watch when she arrived in the house.

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Speaker 5: She had wound it at ten oh five pm the

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Speaker 5: previous evening, and the watch had for some reason just stopped.

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Speaker 5: She did not note the time at which had stopped,

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Speaker 5: but she said it to the time of the clock

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Speaker 5: in her home, and I have her watch. It reads

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Speaker 5: five sixteen, So it was sixteen am when she went

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Speaker 5: into her house after she arrived home. So that clarifies

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Speaker 5: that question about what time they arrived home and whether

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Speaker 5: or not they were missing time. Yes, they were missing

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Speaker 5: at least two hours. They had anticipated an arrival between

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Speaker 5: two and three am. Betty's dress was torn in several places.

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Speaker 5: The back of the dress, the top of the zipper

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Speaker 5: was torn. The thick zipper fabric was torn the stitching,

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Speaker 5: and that corresponded when the examiner was attempting to remove

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Speaker 5: her dress but did not know how to unzip a zipper,

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Speaker 5: so he tore the dress and then she assisted him.

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Speaker 5: The dress dropped to the floor, and the lower part

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Speaker 5: of the dress that hit the floor grew this pink

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Speaker 5: powdery substance on it. Also, the hem was torn down

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Speaker 5: on one side, the side where she tried to escape,

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Speaker 5: and she kicked one of these entities and it tore

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Speaker 5: the lining of the dress on that side as well.

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Speaker 5: The dress was heavily saturated with that pink pottery substance

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Speaker 5: around her sleeves too, where the entities had wrapped their

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Speaker 5: long hands around her up her arms as they were

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Speaker 5: escorting her. I happened to be at the University of

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Speaker 5: New Hampshire with Ben Hansen. He was interviewing me. At

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Speaker 5: the University of New Hampshire. I set up the archival

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Speaker 5: collection there. Betty left instructions for me to go through

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Speaker 5: her archival collection and selectively choose the files that I

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Speaker 5: thought belonged there, So that's what I did. We were

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Speaker 5: examining the dress. We turned it inside out and I

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Speaker 5: had had the back of the lining tested. I'd taken

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Speaker 5: samples from the underarms from near the zipper very areas,

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Speaker 5: but this time Ben was examining the front of the lining.

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Speaker 5: He was started to ask me about three spots that

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Speaker 5: were on the lining of the dress that looked like blood,

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Speaker 5: and they were in the area of Betty's navel. Hemined, yes,

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Speaker 5: that's correct, and so he examined the outside of the dress.

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Speaker 5: There was no stain on the exterior of the dress,

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Speaker 5: only on the lining, and it appeared to have come

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Speaker 5: from where it was next to her body. I am

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Speaker 5: the individual who gives permission for scientists to do studies

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Speaker 5: on that dress, and I am the only person who's

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Speaker 5: permitted to cut a sample. So I cut it for Ben,

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Speaker 5: and then I took the sample home with me until

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Speaker 5: we were able to find a laboratory. And I thought

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Speaker 5: of the Mutual UFO network. I knew that they had

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Speaker 5: a biological scientist, and so I contacted that scientist and

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Speaker 5: asked her if we could get her to do a

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Speaker 5: DNA analysis. I also had a disc with Betty's blood.

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Speaker 5: I would send away a little section of it along

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Speaker 5: with a sample, and so we did send it to

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Speaker 5: Muffon's laboratory. DNA testing was conducted, and what she discovered

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Speaker 5: was that it was DNA from Betty's body. The blood

259
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:36,360
Speaker 5: sample was too old to determine whether it was blood.

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Speaker 5: It appeared to Ben to be blood, but the blood

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Speaker 5: samples were simply too old, so the scientist could only

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Speaker 5: say that it was fluid from Betty's body in the

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Speaker 5: area of her navel, and so yes, that might indicate

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Speaker 5: that Betty's memory of having a needle inserted into her

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Speaker 5: navel it was correct, and we know that over the

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Speaker 5: past how many sixty some odd years experiencers have reported

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Speaker 5: this time and time again. I had also sent three

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Speaker 5: samples of the dress in different areas to doctor David

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Speaker 5: Soriano from the University of Pittsburgh at Bradford and he

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Speaker 5: is a tenured professor in the chemistry department thirty five

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Speaker 5: years experience. He worked with another tenured professor who also

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Speaker 5: had thirty five years experience, training a graduate student to

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Speaker 5: use X ray fluorescence to detect heavier elements on that dress.

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Speaker 5: They detected three heavier elements. One of those elements had

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Speaker 5: a prosaic explanation because it was used in the die

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Speaker 5: in the period of the time in which the fabric

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Speaker 5: of Betty's dress was dyed. The other or two were

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Speaker 5: extraordinarily rare and expensive. One of them was roodium, which

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Speaker 5: is one of the rarest and most valuable precious minerals

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Speaker 5: on Earth, with a higher melting point and lower density

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Speaker 5: than platinum, and the other was tulorium, which is rare

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Speaker 5: in the Earth's crust but more abundant in the universe.

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Speaker 5: So I mean these could be the smoking gun. This

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Speaker 5: was very exciting information to receive. They could think of

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Speaker 5: no earthly explanation for how these metals were deposited on

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Speaker 5: Betty's dress.

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Speaker 4: It's incredible. And the rodium being one of the rarest

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Speaker 4: elements on Earth, how does that end up by this

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Speaker 4: woman's dress in nineteen sixty one. It just seems so unlikely.

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Speaker 4: It's not like she worked in a lab or. It's

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Speaker 4: it's something that you should be exposed to say such

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Speaker 4: a thing, right.

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Speaker 5: That's correct. I mean I can only think that when

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Speaker 5: her dress dropped to the floor of the craft, that

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Speaker 5: that might have been the time that these fragments were

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Speaker 5: deposited onto her dress.

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Speaker 4: I love that. It's another piece of physical evidence too,

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Speaker 4: that you know we have scientific you have those reports.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure, yes. Now you've kept everything so diligently. I

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Speaker 4: think that really supports the case, and I think it's wonderful. Again,

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Speaker 4: that's one of the strongest things about the Benny and

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Speaker 4: Barney Hill Cakes. Let's take another break here, and when

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Speaker 4: we come back, I want to talk to Kathleen about

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Speaker 4: the starmap, the infamous starmap that Betty was shown when

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Speaker 4: she was aboard the craft. It's very interesting. You are

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Speaker 4: listening to Beyond Contact right here on the iHeartRadio Coast

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Speaker 4: to Coast AM Paranormal podcast Network. We are back on

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Speaker 4: Beyond Contact. It's Captain Ron talking to Kathleen Martin about

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Speaker 4: the Benny and Barney Hill case. And Kathleen, let's talk

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Speaker 4: about this interesting aspect of the case, the star map

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Speaker 4: that Betty was shown. Not only is the map interesting,

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Speaker 4: the way she was shown the map is interesting. It

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Speaker 4: was sort of a I don't know how to describe it,

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Speaker 4: a holographic projection. That's interesting because again, this was nineteen

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Speaker 4: sixty one and that sort of thing wasn't really thought of.

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Speaker 4: They didn't have monitors and phones, and just the idea

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Speaker 4: that this was sort of a digital thing, to me

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Speaker 4: is another interesting part of it. Can you tell us

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Speaker 4: how that map was presented to her and then what

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Speaker 4: you found out about this map afterwards?

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Speaker 5: When Betty was on the craft after her examination had

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Speaker 5: been completed, she said to the leader that she was

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Speaker 5: beginning to trust at that time. I know that you're

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Speaker 5: not from here, where's your home port? And he produced

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Speaker 5: this three dimensional star map, and there were stars of

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Speaker 5: various sizes and colors blowing on this map. She even

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Speaker 5: compared it to like looking out a window and seeing

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Speaker 5: these stars. These stars were connected some in the foreground

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Speaker 5: by five solid lines. There were solid lines connecting other stars.

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Speaker 5: There were two solid lines going to our sun, and

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Speaker 5: then there were dotted lines going to other stars. So

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Speaker 5: twelve stars connected by lines, and sixteen stars in all

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Speaker 5: on this map. Doctor Simon said to Betty, if you

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Speaker 5: can remember this accurately and it doesn't trouble you too much,

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Speaker 5: go home and sketch this star map from memory. And

336
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Speaker 5: fortunately Betty had a photographic memory and she sketched it.

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Speaker 5: The only problem she had is that she was using

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Speaker 5: pencil and paper and she saw it as a three

339
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Speaker 5: dimensional map. And it was published in the first book

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Speaker 5: ever written. It's also in Capture The Betty and Barney

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Speaker 5: Hill UFO Experience. Now, once that was published, Marjorie Fish

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Speaker 5: who was a brilliant woman from Ohio who ended up

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Speaker 5: working at the nuclear laboratory, the Oakridge Nuclear Laboratory. But

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Speaker 5: Marjorie had an interest. She was skeptical, but she thought

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Speaker 5: that if this place actually existed somewhere in our galaxy,

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Speaker 5: that maybe she would find a match. Now, there were

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Speaker 5: no computers that she could use in that timeframe, or

348
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Speaker 5: no Xerox machines for photocopy machines. She had to go

349
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Speaker 5: to the university in hand copy all of the distance

350
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Speaker 5: data on all of the stars in our local galactic

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Speaker 5: neighborhood out fifty four light years, and she had to

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Speaker 5: know the characteristics of those stars. And then she would

353
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Speaker 5: construct a three dimensional model using a frame silk thread

354
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Speaker 5: and these beads of various sizes and colors. Imagine the

355
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,639
Speaker 5: math that she had to do to know where to

356
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Speaker 5: place every one of those stars in its proper location.

357
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Speaker 5: She had built fourteen It had taken several years, and

358
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Speaker 5: she didn't find a match. She only found a match

359
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Speaker 5: after we had made scientific progress, we had developed technology

360
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Speaker 5: where we could get a better reading on the distance data.

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Speaker 5: She went back to the university astronomical catalog and copied

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Speaker 5: down the new distance data and started rearranging those stars,

363
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Speaker 5: and finally she had a map for Betty's map. So

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Speaker 5: Coral Lorenzen, who was the director of APRO at the

365
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Speaker 5: time contacted Stanton Friedman to evaluate her. If he thought

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Speaker 5: she was a credible scientifically oriented individual worthy of having

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Speaker 5: her work vetted by astrophysicists, he could make that recommendation

368
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Speaker 5: and find the scientist to vet Marjorie's work, and that's

369
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Speaker 5: what he did, such as Alan Heinek, a statistician, and

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Speaker 5: also the Ohio State University when they had computers vetted

371
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Speaker 5: Marjorie's work and all said that her work was accurate.

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Speaker 5: And so the chance of this happening just by accident

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Speaker 5: that Betty would draw this confus uration is astronomical at

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Speaker 5: the moment, yes, and.

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Speaker 4: Just to think that she could do it from memory

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Speaker 4: days later, you know, you remembered something. As if there's

377
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Speaker 4: not enough going on being confronted with an alien being

378
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Speaker 4: on a spaceship, she's still able to remember what she saw,

379
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Speaker 4: and that is truly, truly remarkable. You've worked on a

380
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Speaker 4: lot of these large studies of nearly five thousand experiencers,

381
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Speaker 4: including the Edgar Mitchell Free Organization, and looked at the

382
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Speaker 4: surveys by those experiences. I think you said about twelve

383
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 4: percent of respondents say they are shown some kind of

384
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Speaker 4: a map. Has anyone ever pulled together these different maps

385
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 4: and compared them to Betties or even to each other.

386
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Speaker 4: To me, we have an opportunity here to really add

387
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 4: credibility if these things line up together, and I wonder

388
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Speaker 4: if any of them like match up with the Dogon

389
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Speaker 4: tribe or any other map.

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Speaker 5: I personally have not asked anyone who participated in our

391
00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 5: studies to sketch the maps that they were and then

392
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 5: find an astrophysicists who could work on that who would

393
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 5: be willing to do that. I do know that there

394
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 5: were star map researchers who were looking for other stars

395
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,960
Speaker 5: in our galaxy that would match up with Betty's map,

396
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Speaker 5: and some were able to do something find something similar.

397
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Speaker 5: The problem is they were dissimilar than the stars on

398
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 5: Betty's map because all of the stars on Betty's map

399
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 5: were sun like stars, although only five percent of the

400
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 5: stars in our local galactic neighborhood are sunlike, and all

401
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 5: the sun like stars in that volume of space were

402
00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 5: on Betty's map. In fact, one of the astrophysicists stated

403
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 5: that if we lived in the Zeta reticular star system

404
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,560
Speaker 5: and we had developed the technology to travel through space,

405
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 5: to explore space, that is precisely the route that we

406
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 5: would take because all of the stars are in a plane,

407
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 5: so it's easier to go from star to star. It

408
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 5: all makes sense. And so that was a tremendous finding.

409
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 5: And I know there are people who have said that

410
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 5: Marjorie Fish before she died, she conceded that her star

411
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:26,680
Speaker 5: map was not accurate. That was a misquote. Stanton quite

412
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 5: concerned about this when we received this information. He contacted

413
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,240
Speaker 5: Marjorie's niece and it was a family member who was

414
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:42,080
Speaker 5: speaking to the funeral director who somehow there was a misunderstanding.

415
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 5: Marjorie's work still holds up today, and a new study

416
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 5: was done I believe it was in two thousand and three,

417
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 5: twenty two hundred and eighty nine different computer models. Wow,

418
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Speaker 5: and still Marjorie Fish's identification. If Betty's map is still the.

419
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Speaker 4: Closest, that's great clarification as to what really happened. That's

420
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 4: really great. Thank you for sharing that. There's been countless

421
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 4: articles written about this incredible case over the years. Of course,

422
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 4: in the famous book The Interrupted Journey by John Fuller,

423
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 4: which was written back in nineteen sixty six, I believe

424
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Speaker 4: you said that the publisher would only publish this book

425
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 4: if he added some embellishments to make it more sensational.

426
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 4: This infuriates me, as for some reason, these incredible stories

427
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,920
Speaker 4: of these people's claims aren't amazing enough. We have to

428
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 4: embellish them. To me, this hurts our community, That hurts

429
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 4: our stories. Then these stories are not being accurately portrayed.

430
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 4: This famously also happened with Travis Walton, as I'm sure

431
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 4: you know with Fire in the Sky that movie. I

432
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 4: genuinely don't understand why this is necessary. What are your

433
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 4: thoughts about what's happening in ufology, particularly with regards to

434
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 4: the Benny and Barney Hill case, the way it has

435
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 4: to be portrayed this way, why they can't do it accurately? I.

436
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 5: As a researcher, as an investigator, attempt to be as

437
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 5: accurate as I possibly can, try to be one hundred

438
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 5: percent accurate in everything I do, backed up very carefully

439
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 5: by evidence, by archival records. The others the movie makers

440
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 5: are entertaining the public. That's the difference between a documentary

441
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 5: and a movie. Right to entertain the public.

442
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,040
Speaker 4: Well, let's take a break right there, Kathleen. When we

443
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,520
Speaker 4: come back, we're going to ask you about some of

444
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 4: the other cases that you've looked at. You're listening to

445
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 4: Beyond Contact on the iHeartRadio and Coast to Coast AM

446
00:30:41,400 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 4: Paranormal podcast network. We are back on Beyond Contact, Kathleen.

447
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 4: You were just talking about how you've kept these records

448
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,120
Speaker 4: over the years for Benny and Barney Hill. How were

449
00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 4: you able to stay objective when looking at the Benny

450
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 4: and Barney Hill case. Since you're so closely involved in.

451
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 5: It, it was important to me to be unbiased. I

452
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 5: committed myself to the idea that if I discovered that

453
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 5: this didn't really happen, that it was just a mistake

454
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 5: made by Betty and Barney, then I would reveal this

455
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 5: as an innocent mistake. But the more I investigated, the

456
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 5: more evidence I collected, I realized that this was absolutely

457
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 5: true and under hypnos separate hypnosis, their accounts matched. This

458
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 5: happened several times, plus all of this physical evidence. My

459
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 5: husband and I drove the entire route that Betty and

460
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 5: Barney drove in the same time frame, on the same

461
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 5: roads when possible, stopping in the same locations. They were

462
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 5: like twenty years younger than my husband and I. When

463
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 5: we did this.

464
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 4: I love that you're very careful with all of this,

465
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 4: and you could tell how measured you are. And you've

466
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 4: been that way the whole time. I mean, you've been

467
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 4: recounting the story years and years and years. It's truly remarkable.

468
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 4: I know you went back and you even helped Betty

469
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 4: as she approached the end of her life. What was

470
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 4: her takeaway thoughts about the experience for her at the

471
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 4: end of her life.

472
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 5: Well, I was caring for her in her home as

473
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 5: she was suffering from fatal cancer of the lungs in

474
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 5: a great deal of pain. She also had a brain tumor,

475
00:32:47,640 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 5: and we had hospice care for the last several months

476
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 5: of her life. And so we would review her life

477
00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 5: and we would reflect upon that experience and ask, if

478
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 5: you could undo this, would you would you prefer that

479
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,640
Speaker 5: this had not happened? And she said, although it was

480
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:15,720
Speaker 5: difficult for them, particularly in terms of the disinformation that

481
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 5: was disseminated regarding the case, she would have done it

482
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 5: again because she had met astronauts from another planet and

483
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 5: she was very pleased to have done that, and also

484
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 5: that she had met and had a relationship with people

485
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 5: that she never would have encountered as a social worker

486
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 5: in civil rights advocate, women's advocate, that sort of thing.

487
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 5: She met some top ranking scientists who are very interested

488
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 5: in her case, military officers who were very interested and supportive.

489
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 4: I love that she calls them astronauts. That's really cute.

490
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 4: I like that. But you are also a member of

491
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 4: MUFIN since ninety one. Correct, You've looked at so many cases,

492
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 4: well beyond just your aunt and uncle's case. After all

493
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 4: of this research, years and years and years, what do

494
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,840
Speaker 4: you think are the most compelling cases or the most

495
00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 4: solid piece of evidence that we have today for et visitation.

496
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:28,760
Speaker 5: It's really hard to say. One case is the smoking gun.

497
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 5: I've worked on many cases privately and a few for

498
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 5: the mutual UFO network. I discovered that I had to

499
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 5: work as an independent investigator so that I could keep

500
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 5: a long term relationship with people who were being taken,

501
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:50,240
Speaker 5: so that we could collect evidence over time. They needed

502
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 5: to know how to collect evidence, what to look for.

503
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 5: So I had one extraordinarily compelling case from Canada, Winnipeg,

504
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 5: and and this experiencer had initially reported his close encounter

505
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 5: to moufon. We didn't have an investigator in that part

506
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 5: of Canada at the time. So Muffon asked me to

507
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 5: investigate the case. And he had this amateur astronomer had

508
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 5: this close encounter and he said, I think I'm being

509
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 5: taken and so we worked together. He had a lot

510
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 5: of photographic equipment set up to attempt to capture evidence

511
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 5: and he did. He sent me a great deal some

512
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 5: incredible patterned marks on his body. He finally contacted me

513
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,720
Speaker 5: and said, I'm very afraid that i have a fatal

514
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 5: case of cancer and I'm going to have surgery. He

515
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 5: sent me a photograph of his neck. He had lymphoma,

516
00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,959
Speaker 5: very enlarged nodes on his neck, and I just said

517
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 5: to him, I have worked with several people who have

518
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:05,799
Speaker 5: the ets for healing. If you can meditate, become very

519
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 5: relaxed and attempt to communicate with them a few times

520
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 5: a day, ask them for healing. And I said, I

521
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 5: meditate too. I will do the same thing, ask them

522
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 5: to heal you well. Within a couple of weeks, he

523
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 5: sent me a photograph of his neck. There was no

524
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 5: longer those huge nodes on his neck. He sent me video.

525
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 5: The video showed an orb that entered through the ceiling

526
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:39,879
Speaker 5: and slid down the wall. It was a beautiful orb

527
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 5: sort of baby blue around the exterior, then white and

528
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 5: shades of turquoise, and then sort of an acre colored center.

529
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 5: And it morphed as it flew across the room and

530
00:36:55,160 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 5: then it hovered above his body. It put down, or

531
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 5: it might have just been on the film from it

532
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:09,879
Speaker 5: diving down into his body. He then became unconscious and

533
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,960
Speaker 5: he woke up twelve hours later and he was healed.

534
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 5: When he went in for the surgery, he did not

535
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 5: know how to explain to the surgeon anything that had happened.

536
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 5: He shared his story his experience with his physician, who

537
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 5: believed him his primary care physician. He even had an

538
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 5: implant removed by him, but he was healed.

539
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 4: That is a fascinating case right there. I'll tell you it.

540
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 5: Was an incredibly fascinating case. And if we have time,

541
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,520
Speaker 5: I have another one that was so compelling. So there

542
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 5: were two paranormal investigators that Stanton Friedman had introduced me to,

543
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 5: and they were seeking a confirmed experiencer so that they

544
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 5: could set up appointment to go to this experiencer's home

545
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 5: to try to capture EVP recordings and maybe video recordings

546
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 5: of a UFO and this experiencer could call in craft.

547
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 5: They went up there, they had their equipment set up.

548
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,680
Speaker 5: It's ten o'clock at night and they're outside looking the

549
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 5: experiencers calling in craft, and something shows up beside the

550
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:30,759
Speaker 5: moon and starts descending in their direction. They're asking questions,

551
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 5: they're receiving responses. Suddenly they find themselves in a different location.

552
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:42,120
Speaker 5: They're not holding their equipment any longer. They're holding each other.

553
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,839
Speaker 5: They're feeling nauseated. They're weaving back and forth. Don't know

554
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 5: what's happened. They don't realize time has passed. They find

555
00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 5: their equipment under a bush. They pick up their camera.

556
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 5: They go inside the experiences home. His wife meets them

557
00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 5: and says, where have you been? Said, well, we've just

558
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 5: been outside in the backyard the whole time. And she said, no,

559
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,760
Speaker 5: you were not. I was looking for you. You weren't there. Well,

560
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 5: they were missing about two hours. Well, the researchers drove

561
00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 5: home and they started later to look at any evidence

562
00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 5: they might have collected. Well, on that camera, it showed

563
00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:29,920
Speaker 5: two beams of light coming out. They were kind of

564
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 5: indigo colored, and then you see entities starting to drop

565
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 5: off those beams. They're not fully materialized, but they become

566
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,600
Speaker 5: more solid as they moved toward the ground. You see

567
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:51,919
Speaker 5: one seated on the ground. He is obviously wearing some

568
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:56,760
Speaker 5: kind of technology on his back, becomes enveloped in blue

569
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 5: light and he rises into the air, crosses in front

570
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 5: of that screen with a blue light in one hand,

571
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,240
Speaker 5: and he's moving back and forth. You can see that technology.

572
00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 5: He's sitting on technology on his head, looking back and forth.

573
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,360
Speaker 5: I think he's looking for those humans that he wants

574
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 5: to capture. There were other entities as well, non human

575
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 5: entities wearing headgear. Just remarkable video evidence.

576
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 4: That's incredible. That is absolutely incredible. You don't get much

577
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 4: video evidence like that of her. And thank you, Kathleen.

578
00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 4: I really appreciate it. This was fascinating information and we

579
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 4: all appreciated all the work you do for our community.

580
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 5: Thank you. It was a pleasure.

581
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 4: Well, we will be back next week with an all

582
00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:47,320
Speaker 4: new episode. You can follow me Captain Ron on Twitter

583
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 4: and Instagram at civ Underscore Captain Ron. Stay connected by

584
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 4: checking out contact inthedesert dot com. Stay open minded and rationalist.

585
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 4: We explore the unknown right here on the iHeartRadio and

586
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 4: Coast to host AM Paranormal Podcast Network.

587
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,479
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the iHeartRadio and Coast to Ghost

588
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 1: Am Paranormal podcast Network. Make sure and check out all

589
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: our shows on the iHeartRadio app or by going to

590
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio dot com