Speaker 1: He created Saturday Night Live and turned it into a
Speaker 1: cultural icon. Lauren Michael sat down with Carlisle Group co
Speaker 1: chairman David Rubinstein for a wide ranging chat for Rubenstein's
Speaker 1: Bloomberg television show Peer to Peer Conversations and June. They
Speaker 1: discussed the show's evolution from his infancy with the original
Speaker 1: cast and now, how trans and comedy and censorship have changed,
Speaker 1: and what it takes to create the storied program. Did
Speaker 1: you think at the beginning that you were going to
Speaker 1: change television history and the history of comedy when you
Speaker 1: were starting that show in n I don't think I
Speaker 1: thought of it in those terms. But I thought that
Speaker 1: if we actually got on the air and UH did
Speaker 1: the show, that the people who were doing the show
Speaker 1: would stay home to watch. I thought there were enough
Speaker 1: people like us because we'd all pretty much come from
Speaker 1: the audience. I was probably the person who had the
Speaker 1: most experienced in television, but most people it was the
Speaker 1: first time that'd been on television, so most experienced. But
Speaker 1: you were only thirty years old. Thirty, so the others
Speaker 1: were in their twenties or yeah, I think uh, I
Speaker 1: think Dan Nakroy was twenty two. I think John Blues.
Speaker 1: She was twenty four. I think Gilda was twenty four.
Speaker 1: Chetty was a little older than me. Why would a
Speaker 1: thirty year old be picked to produce this show? What
Speaker 1: was your background that enabled somebody to think you would
Speaker 1: have experience to do this? I think, first and foremost,
Speaker 1: there was very low stakes, you know, like late night
Speaker 1: doesn't average in the prime time bradies, So it was
Speaker 1: no one's real responsibility. And Carson was on five nights
Speaker 1: a week, and that was doing really well. So when
Speaker 1: I'd done television, and I've done television in Los Angeles,
Speaker 1: both in the late sixties and then when I moved
Speaker 1: back in nineteen seventy two, and the more ambitious things
Speaker 1: that I would suggest or go in and meet about,
Speaker 1: they'd always say wouldn't work in primetime because in those
Speaker 1: days you needed a forty share of the audience to
Speaker 1: to stay on the air. Forty share means was just
Speaker 1: watching you, And so they'd say it won't work, or
Speaker 1: we'll just work on the coast. And I was from
Speaker 1: Canada and I kind of knew what was in between
Speaker 1: the coast, and I thought there were plenty of people
Speaker 1: like me out there, and uh, it was a different generation,
Speaker 1: and if we could, we were at the beginning of
Speaker 1: the baby boom. I'd worked on shows like Laughing as
Speaker 1: a writer, and I've done uh well shows with Lily
Speaker 1: Tomlin and Richard Pryor and uh which were always specials
Speaker 1: and uh uh. And I've done enough that I sort
Speaker 1: of knew how you do it. And it was a
Speaker 1: question of putting together a show which was on some level.
Speaker 1: UH knew why old models, you know. So I took
Speaker 1: elements of various variety shows, and I knew that we'd
Speaker 1: be different because we'd be doing it. So you grew
Speaker 1: up in Toronto, and did you grow up and say
Speaker 1: I want to be a lawyer or a doctor like
Speaker 1: all nice young Jewish boys in those days. I think
Speaker 1: it was my grandparents owned a movie theater, and uh.
Speaker 1: I think from an early age. I think if asked
Speaker 1: in like the third grade what I wanted to do,
Speaker 1: I probably would have said lawyer because I think that's
Speaker 1: what you said, or something like that. But I would
Speaker 1: have wanted to be in the movies. And did you
Speaker 1: at one point say I really want to make my
Speaker 1: career in Canada or at the big time is really
Speaker 1: in the United States? I thought at the time it
Speaker 1: was seven, was the hundredth birthday of Canada Centennial, and
Speaker 1: there was a new spirit in the country and I
Speaker 1: thought I'd be perfectly happy to be here the rest
Speaker 1: of my life. And uh, and then UH got an
Speaker 1: opportunity to do a show in California called the Beautiful
Speaker 1: Phillis Dealer Show variety show. And we'd written I was
Speaker 1: working with a partner then Hard Pomerants, and we write
Speaker 1: and perform and we wrote some stand up for various
Speaker 1: for Woody Allen, Joan Rivers and people like that. Not
Speaker 1: that we influenced their careers, but uh, we've had enough
Speaker 1: experience and we performed. So you picked the number of
Speaker 1: the famous people who later went on to great fame
Speaker 1: and fortune. And then the first show goes on. Right
Speaker 1: when it's over, are you convinced you have a great
Speaker 1: hit forever or you're not sure? When we were beginning,
Speaker 1: I've said this often, but I had all the ingredients,
Speaker 1: I just didn't have the recipe. So between the first
Speaker 1: show and the second show, we changed. Second show was
Speaker 1: Paul Simon, third show is Rob Bryner with Penny Marshall.
Speaker 1: By the fourth show, we'd sort of found the show
Speaker 1: with Candy bergon. We found the show that um resembles
Speaker 1: the show. So the original idea was to have a
Speaker 1: cast of characters and not ready for prime time players
Speaker 1: as they were caught, and a host, a different host
Speaker 1: every week. Who was your host the first week the
Speaker 1: first show? George Carlin? And was he so funny in
Speaker 1: those days you knew it would be a hit or
Speaker 1: was he talking with the different monologues that would work?
Speaker 1: And I thought he was funny. The biggest controversy in
Speaker 1: that first show was the network wanted him to wear
Speaker 1: a suit, jacket and tie, and uh, he didn't want to.
Speaker 1: He wanted to wear a T shirt. I was it
Speaker 1: was not the biggest thing in my life. I would
Speaker 1: let him wear what he wants. But uh, the compromise,
Speaker 1: which took up a lot of time on show day,
Speaker 1: was he wore a suit with a T shirt, which
Speaker 1: the perfect solution. So did you have to have a
Speaker 1: sensor for words that might not be appropriated? A lot
Speaker 1: about a lot of discussions about what we could do
Speaker 1: and what we couldn't and um and what you could
Speaker 1: do at eleven thirty and what you could do at midnight.
Speaker 1: I think that we sort of. You know, all those
Speaker 1: phrases from the seventies, like cutting edge and pushing the
Speaker 1: envelope and all that. I think we were just trying
Speaker 1: to reflect life as we were living it. And also,
Speaker 1: is the end of the Vietnam War nine? You know
Speaker 1: what the president resigned? Uh, New York City was bankrupt.
Speaker 1: It was a little window that opened where it wasn't
Speaker 1: business as usual, all right, seventy five, the late seventies
Speaker 1: or early eighties, How has humor changed or the people
Speaker 1: laugh at the same kind of things? Are certain things
Speaker 1: you can make fun of now you couldn't, or vice versa.
Speaker 1: There's almost nothing we did in the seventies that I
Speaker 1: could do now. Gilda Radner would not be able to
Speaker 1: play Rose Amazona, Dana. John Belushi would not be able
Speaker 1: to play Japanese. Uh, Garrett Morris doing news for the
Speaker 1: Heart of Hearing would have been making fun of a handicap.
Speaker 1: So it's it's just all values change. And then I
Speaker 1: always say that between the movie Arthur and the movie
Speaker 1: Arthur to alcoholism became a disease and no one wanted
Speaker 1: to laugh at drunks anymore, whereas for two years they
Speaker 1: left drunk. So let's take people through how the show
Speaker 1: is actually produced. On a Monday, do you recover from
Speaker 1: the previous week and do you actually go to work
Speaker 1: on Monday? And you know, we we everybody has to
Speaker 1: show up Monday. I have a meeting which I've had
Speaker 1: from the beginning of five o'clock on Mondays, which has
Speaker 1: all the writing staff, all the cast, that the host,
Speaker 1: people for the music department, people for the field department,
Speaker 1: and um, we all gather in my office. Uh they gather.
Speaker 1: I'm behind the desk, and uh, I go around the
Speaker 1: room and ask everybody what their what their idea is.
Speaker 1: And in your forty five years of doing this, almost
Speaker 1: forty five years, have you ever had a private equity
Speaker 1: person as a guest host? Not? Not, It's been just
Speaker 1: we haven't done well. Maybe there's an opportunity at some point.
Speaker 1: So Tuesday Wednesday you're kind of writing it. You have
Speaker 1: a dinner with people. Then Thursday and Friday you do
Speaker 1: dress rehearsals or we choose the show. On Wednesday, we
Speaker 1: read forty pieces looking for thirteen and fourteen. Once that's chosen,
Speaker 1: then the designers begin designing the sets. Then those plans
Speaker 1: go out to the shop late that night and they start, Um,
Speaker 1: we the film unit goes off to figure out how
Speaker 1: they're going to shoot the two or three pieces we're shooting.
Speaker 1: We are always assessing who has not as much to
Speaker 1: do as we'd like. Uh, And so we've left the
Speaker 1: opening of the show and generally one or two spots
Speaker 1: open for anything that happens between night then and and
Speaker 1: have you ever gotten worried that you picked a guesthouse
Speaker 1: who really isn't up to the task? Yeah? And do
Speaker 1: you how do you coach them? And maybe you could
Speaker 1: do a better job or be ready get almost anyone
Speaker 1: through it. It's an odd hybrid because you're on stage,
Speaker 1: so there are lots of people who are very good
Speaker 1: at that, but then there's also cameras, and also the
Speaker 1: script is constantly changing up to the last minute, so
Speaker 1: it takes a level of focus, and there's a point
Speaker 1: which the host really just gives up and goes you
Speaker 1: just have to trust it at this point that will
Speaker 1: that it will all come together. So I anticipation of
Speaker 1: my getting a chance to do it with you. You
Speaker 1: invited me to come to one of the shows recently,
Speaker 1: and I was surprised how small the studio actually is now.
Speaker 1: This is a studio that Toro Toscanini conducted the NBC
Speaker 1: Orchestra at one point. Yeah, it was built on springs.
Speaker 1: Literally he was the NBC Sympathy Orchestra and Tuscanini was
Speaker 1: that important, and rock Feller said he had been built.
Speaker 1: So they put this in between floors so that the
Speaker 1: subway noise wouldn't affect it. A lot of that was
Speaker 1: changed when television came in, because they thought sound would matter.
Speaker 1: Turns outday I noticed when I was there that you
Speaker 1: were walking around the set a bit, and I noticed
Speaker 1: sometimes when I watch on TV that you're staring at
Speaker 1: what's going on, and um, you don't smile that much
Speaker 1: when you're doing this, And and do you ever think, oh,
Speaker 1: this isn't going as well as I thought, so you'd
Speaker 1: tell the people fix it or do something different in
Speaker 1: the middle of the show. No, I mean there's some
Speaker 1: of that, but mostly it's about time. So the cast
Speaker 1: are good enough that if you are running a minute
Speaker 1: or too long, you can just go but they you
Speaker 1: understand and they can just pick it up and go faster,
Speaker 1: or else we take a page over or something. And
Speaker 1: there are cases where you think you had a really
Speaker 1: funny sketch script and all of a sudden people aren't
Speaker 1: laughing in the studio, or the reverses where you're not
Speaker 1: sure it's that funny, all of a sudden becomes very funny. Yes,
Speaker 1: you choose the pieces on wedd so you rehearse them
Speaker 1: Thursday and Friday and again Saturday afternoon and costume and makeup,
Speaker 1: and then you uh, you do address rehearsal, which is
Speaker 1: the first time four people come in and see it
Speaker 1: and whatever you thought, if they disagree, they're right. So
Speaker 1: we adjust from that. Things that you thought were sure
Speaker 1: fire don't play, and things that a harder piece, if
Speaker 1: you play it early, it probably won't work. And so
Speaker 1: it's it's where you play things running order and also topicality,
Speaker 1: so you don't get people calling you from the network
Speaker 1: that owns you, let's say it's nbc Z owned by Comcasting,
Speaker 1: saying jeez, you're being too tough on a political figure.
Speaker 1: They just leave you along. They leave us alone. And
Speaker 1: the Comcast people have been brilliant because one, I don't
Speaker 1: think they want to be doing the show themselves, So
Speaker 1: there's that, and also it's just been Steve Burke bron Roberts,
Speaker 1: just unwavering support. Okay, so when you're not doing Saturday
Speaker 1: Night Live, you're also producing some other television shows, so
Speaker 1: you're producing late night you know, I did the Tonight
Speaker 1: Show and Seth Mars, you know, a late night show.
Speaker 1: But in all of those, thirty Rock is a perfect example.
Speaker 1: Tina Fey was a brilliant head writer on SNL and
Speaker 1: then cast member and an update she wanted to do
Speaker 1: a series. We did Mean Girls together as a movie.
Speaker 1: She wanted to do a television series. It ended up
Speaker 1: being Dirty Rock. And what I will do is I'll
Speaker 1: be all over it um at the beginning to make
Speaker 1: sure that it's both on track and that's the best
Speaker 1: version of what it could be. And then once it's
Speaker 1: sort of uh going or going well enough, I will
Speaker 1: tiptoe out of the room and go back to my
Speaker 1: other job, which is SNL. So most of my focus
Speaker 1: is SNL because it's compelling and because you don't know
Speaker 1: what's happening minute to minute. And then with the Tonight Show,
Speaker 1: WI Chimmy Fallon who also and Seth Mars. These are
Speaker 1: people I've worked with and we have a shorthand, and
Speaker 1: I have faith in them. Uh, and so you can
Speaker 1: sort of see that process. So sometimes humor is so
Speaker 1: funny on your show that you know you just can't
Speaker 1: stop laughing, and um, they do eventually eventually. But I mean,
Speaker 1: is there anything that makes you laugh so uproariously that
Speaker 1: you can't control your own It's always something in the
Speaker 1: show that I'm really proud of. And also comedy is
Speaker 1: a it's a disruptive thing. You know, people don't plan
Speaker 1: to laugh. They're taught when to applaud, but they're not
Speaker 1: taught when to laugh. So there's something that's always surprising.
Speaker 1: And when you see the pairing of really good writing
Speaker 1: and a brilliant performance, Uh, you want when they're locked in.
Speaker 1: When people are made famous but by your show, and
Speaker 1: then they go into a great fame and fortune beyond
Speaker 1: your show, they ever call you up and say thank
Speaker 1: you very much for everything you did for me and
Speaker 1: I could have done it without you, or they forget
Speaker 1: to do that. I think there's very strong feelings on
Speaker 1: both sides of it. We did when we did the
Speaker 1: fortieth anniversary UM a couple of years ago. I think everyone,
Speaker 1: all the people were invited who had worked on the show,
Speaker 1: plus people who hosted the show, and I think when
Speaker 1: people looked around the room and saw all the different
Speaker 1: generations of people who have done it, it was people
Speaker 1: realized that what we've done was important. And recently a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, Adam Sandler I was hosting the
Speaker 1: show and he did a song about Chris Farley and
Speaker 1: I did a lot of work with Chris Farley, and
Speaker 1: UM and Adam and he were very close, obviously, but
Speaker 1: what happened was he was doing this tribute and he
Speaker 1: looked around the studio and crew were the same crew,
Speaker 1: The people in design were the same people, and you
Speaker 1: sort of set up people cheering up and you realized, Um,
Speaker 1: it's just an important thing. And in that on that stage,
Speaker 1: in that room, UH where everyone has been working forever,
Speaker 1: UH just had real power. Are there things you would
Speaker 1: like to do with the show that you haven't done yet?
Speaker 1: I think the show just continues to moreph I mean
Speaker 1: the last since the last election, it's been much more
Speaker 1: political because the audience can follow it. There are times,
Speaker 1: you know, there were times in the mid nineties were
Speaker 1: if you'd ask one of the cast members who the
Speaker 1: Senate majority leader is, they wouldn't know So one year, Lapel,
Speaker 1: you're wearing a pin which is I guess the Order
Speaker 1: of Canada, and that signifies that the highest honor you
Speaker 1: can get as a Canadian citizen or something like that,
Speaker 1: you could be elected Prime minister. I suppose. I think
Speaker 1: people would rather have that. So now you've received that
Speaker 1: as a in you're a Canadian and American citizen, yes, right,
Speaker 1: but you've also received the highest civilian honor that our
Speaker 1: country can give, which is the Presidential Medal Freedom. So
Speaker 1: what was it like, President you got it from President Obama?
Speaker 1: What was that like? Thrilled when I got the call
Speaker 1: telling me that I was to receive it. Um, I
Speaker 1: was in the middle of working out and it wasn't okay,
Speaker 1: And then I sort of took it in and then
Speaker 1: I went, oh, belly, Gerard had called me, said, and
Speaker 1: we'd appreciate you're not talking about it. So there was
Speaker 1: a month where I knew I was getting it before
Speaker 1: it was going to be announced, and I took it
Speaker 1: very seriously about not talking to people about it when
Speaker 1: you are as prominent as you are, and eve been
Speaker 1: doing it for as long as you have been Cany
Speaker 1: young people in their twenties who might be writers say
Speaker 1: this is very funny, and you say no, and they
Speaker 1: argue with you, or they when you say no, I think.
Speaker 1: You know, it's three o'clock in the morning. You see
Speaker 1: two writers in the hall. I mean, uh, sure, And
Speaker 1: in the seventies it would have been seamless, but now
Speaker 1: it's they just stopped talking as I get closer. But
Speaker 1: I think if suggest an idea and I'm thinking, well, uh,
Speaker 1: we've done that eight or ten times. I wrote it
Speaker 1: three times. It's never worked. But if you ever said
Speaker 1: it won't work, they think, well, he just doesn't get it,
Speaker 1: which is infuriating, and but they have to be able
Speaker 1: to write it and hope springs eternal that maybe this
Speaker 1: time it will work. So there's no idea that somebody
Speaker 1: brilliant isn't able to figure out and pull off. So
Speaker 1: we're always just hopeful on that front. So today, as
Speaker 1: you look at next season and so forth, are there
Speaker 1: things you would like to do with the show that
Speaker 1: you haven't done yet? I think the show just continues
Speaker 1: to moreph I mean the last since the last election,
Speaker 1: it's been much more political because the audience can follow it.
Speaker 1: There are times, you know, there were times and the
Speaker 1: mid nineties where if you'd ask one of the cast
Speaker 1: members who the Senate Majority leader is, they wouldn't know.
Speaker 1: So politics becomes obviously post Watergate, politics is very important
Speaker 1: into the Baby Boom generation remained important, uh, and then
Speaker 1: in in good times it sort of recedes. So we're
Speaker 1: always just doing what the topical it might be politics
Speaker 1: right now. It is. So if somebody said, I really
Speaker 1: want to be like Lauren Michaels, I want to be
Speaker 1: a successful producer master of television. What are the qualities
Speaker 1: that this person should have hard work, smart, good sense
Speaker 1: of humor, and able to how to get along with people,
Speaker 1: motivate people. What are the qualities you think really are
Speaker 1: the most important ones. I think that what I wouldn't
Speaker 1: advise anybody on it, but I think that leadership in
Speaker 1: this particular field, uh is the ability to change your
Speaker 1: mind and quite often change your mind. So if a
Speaker 1: better idea comes in, uh from a first year writer,
Speaker 1: we'll go with that. And it's a culture that thrives
Speaker 1: on that, So it isn't status or hierarchy to determine it. People,
Speaker 1: people that the audience is dying to see in the
Speaker 1: cast can end up in one piece because the pieces
Speaker 1: got chosen, and they were chosen. Everyone's heard them play
Speaker 1: it read through, and so uh, there isn't a week
Speaker 1: where someone's not seriously unhappy. And it's not fun walking
Speaker 1: past people just have you've cut their piece because we're
Speaker 1: running along and that's the piece that got cut. But
Speaker 1: there's always next week, and I think you just keep
Speaker 1: moving forward and you just try and create a culture
Speaker 1: where everyone feels they're heard. Thank you for letting us
Speaker 1: talk to you, and thank you for never making fun
Speaker 1: of private equity and all the shows and you've never
Speaker 1: made fun of private equity, which is a good thing, right, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: it is a good thing. Thank you very much more
Speaker 1: than welcome. Thank you for having me