1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from HowStuffWorks dot com. Hey, 2 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:15,200 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is 3 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And Robert, I have 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: some very exciting news for you. Did you know that 5 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: at this very moment in the studio with us is 6 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: a minotaur that breathes rad on gas. Oh well, uh, 7 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to call your bluff on that one, Joe, 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,839 Speaker 1: because I do not see a single minotaur in this 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: recording studio. No bluff, I speak the truth. There is 10 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: a minotaur in here. Now you can't see it because 11 00:00:43,120 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 1: it is invisible to the mall. But there is a 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: raid on gas breathing minotaur and he's right behind you. 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: Oh well, so all I need to do is bring 14 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: in say radon gas detector and then we can confirm 15 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,280 Speaker 1: the existence of this fantastic beast. Well, unfortunately that that 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: would be a good id. But the rate on gas 17 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: that this minataar breathes out is not detectable by normal 18 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: chemical equipment. It's it's a different kind of chemical. It's 19 00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: not it's not a physical chemical. Okay, Well, in that case, 20 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,440 Speaker 1: let's bring in some sort of infrared camera, so we 21 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 1: can we can see this creature. Well, a funny thing 22 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: about this invisible mintaur is that its body is completely 23 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: consistent with the ambient room temperature, so it emits no 24 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: infrared radiation at all. Okay, well, let me get some 25 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:28,280 Speaker 1: spray paint and we can sort of coat the general 26 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: part of the room that it is in. Then we'll 27 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: see its physical body. No, no, no, no no, you are 28 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:38,759 Speaker 1: imposing an unfair materialistic bias on my minotaur. This minotaur 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: doesn't need to have paint stick to it. It has 30 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: a different kind of body. It has a kind of 31 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: ethereal body that paint goes right through. I'm beginning to 32 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 1: think that this minotaur has the magical ability to conveniently 33 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: weasel out of any practical experiment that I can devise. 34 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,920 Speaker 1: Thou shalt not test the Lord thy Minotaur. No, no, 35 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 1: no, no no, actually I can. I can prove it to you. Okay, 36 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: I have a friend, you know, my friend Jeffrey. Have 37 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: you met Jeffrey? Is this another imaginary friend? No? No, no no, 38 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: Jeffrey's real. Jeffrey's got a buddy who met a guy 39 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,959 Speaker 1: in Florida who saw the minotar and the minotar bit 40 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: him on the shoulder. Oh, so you're bringing Florida man 41 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: into this, but it bit him like you can even 42 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 1: I've seen the marks on his shoulder. I saw a 43 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: picture of them. I got it in an email forward. Well, 44 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: clearly the most likely explanation for these bite marks is 45 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: an imaginative beast. Thank you for finally acknowledging this, Robert, 46 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,520 Speaker 1: Thank you. Now, I've been trying to get people on 47 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: board with my minotaur for a while, and it seems 48 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: like like people just don't want to go along with me. 49 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 1: But occasionally you meet the right kind of person, the 50 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: person who's willing to go the extra mile with you 51 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:45,839 Speaker 1: and say, yes, I'll follow you down that minatar road. 52 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: Let's talk to you about your minotaur. Let's maybe we 53 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: can spin it off into a podcast or a multi 54 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: series TV show. Now, if you have already read the 55 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: books we recommended in our summer reading episodes this year, 56 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:01,079 Speaker 1: you will be recognized what we just talked about is 57 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:03,800 Speaker 1: quite similar to a chapter in the non fiction book 58 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: that Robert recommended this summer, which was The Demon Haunted 59 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: World Science as a Candle in the Dark by Carl Sagan. 60 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: This was a nineteen ninety five book, and as I 61 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: discussed in that episode, it still speaks to us today. 62 00:03:15,720 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: There is most of it is not dated at all, 63 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: but there is this chapter where he begins by describing 64 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: a scenario where he's bringing somebody in and like our 65 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: minotaur saying, oh, well, there's a dragon in this garage. 66 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 1: And when tests are proposed to examine the possible existence 67 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: of this dragon, the same sort of excuses are made. Right, Well, 68 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: maybe we can put some flour on the floor and 69 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: see if it leaves tracks when it walks around. Oh 70 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, this dragon levitates. Oh maybe we can 71 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: check to see if it breathes fire with thermal detectors 72 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: like you suggested, Robert, Well, no, no, no, the fire 73 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: it breathes as cold fire. And so Sagan in this chapter, 74 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: I think it presents a very clean, clear, positive vision 75 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:01,520 Speaker 1: of what the skeptical minds mindset should be. And you 76 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: know I've said on the show before that I think 77 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: sometimes I have mixed feelings sometimes about like the skeptic identity, 78 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: because like I think it's a good thing to be skeptical, 79 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 1: and it's a good thing to be a skeptic, but 80 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 1: sometimes I see it becoming a community on the Internet 81 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 1: that seems to sometimes pat itself on the back a 82 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: little bit too much. Yeah, it becomes I think the 83 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: way I've discussed before, it's kind of like this party 84 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: pooper mentality, you know, whereas ultimately what Sagan proposes this 85 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,480 Speaker 1: chapter is kind of it's more like, Oh, this dragon 86 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: sounds amazing, let me help you prove it. Let me 87 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: help you look at the actual evidence for this. Now, 88 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: unfortunately we do have to arrive at the conclusion that 89 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 1: there probably is not a dragon in the garage, and 90 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: there probably is not a rat on breathing minotaur in 91 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 1: the studio with us. And one of the lessons that 92 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: Segan draws from this is to be wary about claims 93 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: that seem to be extremely elastic, where there's always a 94 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,720 Speaker 1: new excuse or why this one reason you want to 95 00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: help investigate the claim wouldn't actually work. This often comes 96 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: up in say, investigations of psychic phenomena, where people will say, no, 97 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: I'm really a psychic, Yeah, I really do have dowsing 98 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,080 Speaker 1: powers or something like that. So you try to set up, well, okay, 99 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: let's do a test. Let's do a controlled test to 100 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: see if you really can find water, and they're like, 101 00:05:20,640 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 1: oh no, no no, no, I can't do it right now 102 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: because there's static electricity in the air. No matter what, 103 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: there's always some excuse for why this test, in particular 104 00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 1: this day doesn't work. But in today's episode, we wanted 105 00:05:33,120 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: to get to a particular story that Carl Sagan tells 106 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: in this chapter of The demon Haunted World. That is 107 00:05:39,640 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: a really fascinating development on this scenario where normally you'd 108 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: have a person who's presenting something that's probably not evidence based, 109 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: and then you've got an interlocutor who, in our original 110 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: example is somebody who's skeptical who's pushing back. But what 111 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: happens when say, social forces or biases or beliefs begin 112 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: to work on the interlock hut or too well? Yeah? 113 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: For instance, what if you had been sorry, Joe, But 114 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,480 Speaker 1: what if you had been really convincing about that minute 115 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: tar you know, what if you were just so passionate 116 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 1: about it, give me another chance, like a try harder 117 00:06:12,520 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 1: where I will you know, maybe I started off just 118 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 1: kind of humoring you, and then I'm find myself actually 119 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: believing that it's here. Well, Sagan tells a story very 120 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: much like this, and it concerns author and psychoanalyst Robert Lindner, 121 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: who is called in by Los Alamos National Laboratory to 122 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 1: treat a gifted nuclear physicist referred to by the pseudonym 123 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: Kirk Allen. Now, this story is as it is presented 124 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 1: by Lindner himself, right, So he is obviously changing some 125 00:06:41,680 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: details to protect the identity of his patient, and so 126 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: it's not verifiable which elements of the story are fictionalized, right, 127 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: But he presents this as a sort of fictionalized version 128 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: of a true clinical encounter he had. Right. It's also 129 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 1: worth noting that most of the individuals in this story, 130 00:06:58,520 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: perhaps all of the individuals are now segan sadly passed away. 131 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: Linder lived nineteen fourteen through nineteen fifty six, and some 132 00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: of the individuals that were later presumed to be or 133 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: suspected to possibly be Kirk Allen have also passed. So 134 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: there's not a lot of new information out there about 135 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: who who was actually being referred to, and to what 136 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: degree things were fictionalized to protect the individual's identity, and 137 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: also what could potentially have been tweaked just to make 138 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: a better story. Because Lindner wrote about this in his 139 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: book The Fifty Minute Hour, which is published in nineteen 140 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: fifty four, and also in a couple of articles for 141 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: Harper's Magazine. Both of those articles, Part one and Part 142 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: two Part two are available online right now. Are those 143 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: the ones called the Jet Propelled Couch? Yes, the jet 144 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: Propelled Couch, which is a fabulous, fabulous title. We'll try 145 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: to have links to those articles on the landing page 146 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: for this episode. It's stuffed toblermind dot com. Now, Robert, 147 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: I was unfamiliar with the story of Kirk Allen before 148 00:08:01,440 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 1: you suggested this topic for an episode, and I am 149 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: so glad you did, because this is really really interesting stuff. 150 00:08:08,320 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: I had never come across this story before it all, 151 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: and it really got my gears turning. Indeed, I was 152 00:08:13,960 --> 00:08:18,200 Speaker 1: not familiar with it until I read The Demon Haunted World. 153 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: Though this story has been around for a while obviously, 154 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: so I imagine some of you out there have heard 155 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: about it, so hopefully you'll enjoy revisiting it with us today. 156 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: So one thing we should probably point out is who 157 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:34,560 Speaker 1: is Robert Lindner. Again, he was a practitioner of psychoanalysis, right, 158 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: which is somewhat controversial. Indeed, now he actually has some 159 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 1: pretty impressive things on his resume. Though. He wrote Rebel 160 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: without a Cause, The hypno Analysis of a Criminal Psychopath, 161 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: which is published in nineteen forty four, and it's the 162 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: book that inspired the title, and I should say the 163 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: title alone of the famous nineteen fifty five film starring 164 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: James Dean, not the story, not the story, just the title, 165 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: because there's a in the book where he says, quote, 166 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: the psychopath is a rebel without a cause, an agitator 167 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: without a slogan, a revolutionary without a program. You're harsh 168 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,920 Speaker 1: and my buzz man. And he seems to have made 169 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: some legitimate contributions to understandings of gambling psychology, and Rebel 170 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 1: is also well regarded. It seems as just an early 171 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 1: work of psychoanalysis. He had an m A and a 172 00:09:26,640 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: PhD in psychology from Cornell. He served as chief psychologist 173 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: at a US penitentiary in Lewisbourg, Pennsylvania, and he later 174 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: operated a private practice in Baltimore, and through Rebel and 175 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:43,679 Speaker 1: other works, he helped expand popular understanding and perceptions of psychoanalysis. Now, 176 00:09:43,720 --> 00:09:45,840 Speaker 1: obviously there are lots of reasons people have for being 177 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: skeptical of the psychoanalysis tradition in therapy. But he at 178 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 1: least was a person who had real legitimate clinical practice 179 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 1: with all these experiences, and we can learn from the 180 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: experiences even if you don't necessarily say, agree with his 181 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: framework for how to treat people. Correct. Now, this brings 182 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,680 Speaker 1: us to Alan kirk Allen, again a pseudonym. Based on 183 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 1: Linder's writing, we can say Alan was something of a 184 00:10:14,040 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 1: science fiction fan a little bit. Yeah. He enjoyed a 185 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: rich in her world that was just full of spacefaring adventure, 186 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 1: and he was especially a fan of a specific sci 187 00:10:23,760 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: fi book series in which the main character shared his name, 188 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 1: according to Lindner. So you know, we'll get into how 189 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: some people have interpreted this, But obviously there are a 190 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 1: few different, very notable science fiction heroes from literature of 191 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: the time that that you know, John Carter is often 192 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: brought up as a possibility, but at any rate, he had. 193 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: He has an obsession, and this obsession seems to eventually 194 00:10:52,160 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: cross over into delusion or near delusion, with Alan believing 195 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: that he actually pilots a spaceship in the future and 196 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: that he's a lord of many worlds, and then he 197 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 1: can think about it in just the right way and 198 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: transport himself centuries into the future. Reportedly, Alan was fairly balanced. 199 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 1: He had a reasonable work life imagination balance, but his 200 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: employers eventually became concerned that he was growing too distracted 201 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:23,559 Speaker 1: and dreamy. He was writing about everything some He apparently 202 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: wrote some twelve thousand words on every aspect of this 203 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:31,559 Speaker 1: future world of his so history, genealogy, biology, etc. Sagan 204 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: points out that one of these volumes had the title 205 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: the Application of Unified Field Theory in the Mechanics of 206 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: the Star Drive to Space Travel, which he says actually 207 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:47,559 Speaker 1: sounded fairly interesting. Given this idea that Allan's alleged background 208 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: is insist is physics and he's a gifted physicist, it 209 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: would be interesting to see what sort of sci fi 210 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: propulsion system an obsessed physicist came up with. That is interesting. 211 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:02,640 Speaker 1: But if that's the way we actually discover some sort 212 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: of warp drive is in the science fiction works of 213 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,960 Speaker 1: a day dreaming nuclear physicist, well, you know, it's always 214 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: important to note the importance of sci fi in the 215 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: inspiration of actual scientists. I mean, you look, for instance, 216 00:12:16,320 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: just at some of the notable rocket scientists of the 217 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,560 Speaker 1: twentieth century, and so many of them were especially as children, 218 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: just very in young people, you know, very inspired by 219 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: the sci fi of the time, and I think that 220 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 1: has continued to hold up with the scientists today. Absolutely. 221 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: But okay, so we've set this up where Kirk Allen, 222 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 1: this pseudonym for this physicist. He's doing his work, but 223 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 1: he's spending a lot of time daydreaming about this other 224 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 1: world and apparently is somehow convinced that it's to some 225 00:12:49,080 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: extent real and he can actually go there. He can 226 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 1: travel through time into the future and be a space lord, 227 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: flying from planet to planet and having adventures in the cosmos. Right, 228 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,560 Speaker 1: So it reaches some sort of a tipping point and 229 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: his employers say, hey, you should go talk to somebody 230 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: about this. Why don't you talk to our friend Robert 231 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 1: here and and he will, you know, he'll work this 232 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: out with you. So that's pretty much what happened. Lynner 233 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: engages with Alan, talks to him at length about his 234 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: imagined world, and he realizes quote, in order to separate 235 00:13:21,480 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 1: Kirk from his madness, it was necessary for me to 236 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: enter his fantasy and from that position to pry him 237 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: loose from the psychosis. This sounds like a bad road, 238 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: I feel like, I feel like the guy in pet cemetery. 239 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: You don't want to go down that road. Yeah, he's said, 240 00:13:39,080 --> 00:13:40,839 Speaker 1: let me, let me go out on the ledge, let 241 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: me go walk into the flaming house. I don't know 242 00:13:43,320 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: where we were going at. We're discussing it, knowing what's 243 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: about to happen. Though, Well, I guess on the other hand, 244 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 1: we should be humble. I mean, this guy had clinical 245 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: experience and we don't exactly yes, but in retrospect it 246 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 1: ended up being perhaps a question will move because what 247 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: happened next is that, in discussions about Kirk's rich imagined 248 00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: delusion became something more. He became, in Sagan's words quote 249 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:16,079 Speaker 1: the psychoanalyst became a co conspirator in his patient's delusion. Yeah. 250 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: He describes, or Lindner describes how he would go through 251 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: all of these materials that kirk Allen provided for him, 252 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: and he would like get into the world and he 253 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: would start trying to find internal inconsistencies with like the 254 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 1: treatises that kirk Allen was writing about these space civilizations 255 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: and all that, and try to help him work out 256 00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 1: the inconsistencies, and that this eventually led to him sort 257 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 1: of getting into that mindset of like, wait a minute, 258 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: how do I know this isn't true? How do you 259 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: know that somebody else isn't mentally traveling into the future 260 00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 1: and becoming a space lord? That's right in the jet 261 00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: propelled couch, Lindner writes, quote, the materials of Kirk's psychosis 262 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 1: and the Achilles heel of my personality met and meshed 263 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: like the gears of a clock. Quote. The transformation of 264 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 1: fascination into psychic distress alarmed me sufficiently to make me 265 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: take the necessary steps for extracting myself from my predicament. 266 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: It acted first as a spur to self analysis. Gradually, 267 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: by the use of this accustomed tool, I was able 268 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: to allay the more acute symptoms and to initiate those 269 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: insightful processes that lead to recovery. But before I had 270 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,440 Speaker 1: completed this task, an amazing event occurred which, in the 271 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: space of one hour, not only broke what remained of 272 00:15:33,520 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: my spell, but marked the successful conclusion of Kirk's treatment. Well, 273 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: what broke the spell? So basically what's happening is that 274 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 1: that Allan is just sucking him into this world. Lindner 275 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: is falling into this delusion. According to Lindner. This is 276 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: Lenner's home take on the scenario. And then finally, Allan 277 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: just comes up to him and says, I'm sorry, it's 278 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: all fiction. I made it up. Stop believing in all 279 00:15:58,760 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 1: of this, because id it? So he's he admits that 280 00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: I don't actually believe I travel into the future and 281 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 1: I'm a space lord and all that. I'm just daydreaming. 282 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: I'm just making up stories. Right. The patient ends up 283 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: being the one to say, I think this is because of, 284 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: you know, my loneliness as a child and my difficulties 285 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 1: with women. He broke the spell of his own purported 286 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:24,480 Speaker 1: delusion in order to save his psychoanalyst, or at least 287 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 1: that's how Lindner framed it in his writings. Right, I 288 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: guess all we have is Lindner's story to go on, 289 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 1: so we don't know, but it I mean, assuming this 290 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: is true, that's a heck of a story. Yeah, And that's, 291 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: of course one of the things about anything that is 292 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 1: a heck of a story. We also have to engage 293 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 1: a certain amount of skepticism. To what extent did one 294 00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: perhaps tweak the truth to make it a better story. 295 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: That remains an open and unanswered question. Well, it does 296 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 1: make me think about how so the pillars supporting a 297 00:16:56,040 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: propositional belief like Kirk can travel into the future and 298 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 1: be a space lord and all that, and he goes 299 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,439 Speaker 1: to all these galactic civilizations. The pillars supporting a belief 300 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: like that are not just the contents of the belief 301 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: itself and the evidence for it, but it's also social, right. 302 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 1: I mean, we believe all kinds of things for essentially 303 00:17:18,520 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: social reasons, because, like, it would be really socially problematic 304 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: to be skeptical in some scenarios, right, Like, you may 305 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 1: have plenty of scenarios where somebody you love tells you 306 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 1: something that you don't think is likely true, but you 307 00:17:34,040 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: kind of believe them because of your relationship with them, right, Right, 308 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,159 Speaker 1: And sometimes, especially if emotions are heightened, you kind of 309 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: have to play along. Right. If you're at someone else's 310 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,479 Speaker 1: funeral and someone tells the bereaved everything happens for a reason, 311 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: you know, it's not my place to come in and 312 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: start dismantling that nonsense, you know, Right, I'm more inclined 313 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: to just simply nod and you know, pretend I didn't 314 00:17:55,080 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: hear it, right, I mean, yeah, the relationship sort of 315 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 1: govern what gets said. And also we know that leaving 316 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 1: is not always such a I don't know, such a 317 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: clear transactional process, like like Sagan depicts in his chapter 318 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: where he's like, well, somebody comes to you and says 319 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,479 Speaker 1: I've got a dragon in my garage, and you know, 320 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: you get to have this dialogue with them. Well, do 321 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: you really what if somebody comes to you and says 322 00:18:18,040 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: I have a dragon in my garage. But there's somebody 323 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: in your family and it's somebody you care about, you 324 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 1: don't really believe them. But also you've had this conversation before, 325 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: and trying to argue with them is really difficult, and 326 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: so you just kind of go along with it for 327 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: a bit. And then by going along with it you 328 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,240 Speaker 1: start to kind of wear down your own defenses and 329 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,200 Speaker 1: you're like, well, how would I know if they didn't 330 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: have a dragon? Yeah, I mean one of the things 331 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: Sagan ends up comparing it to is is a magic trick. Yeah. 332 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: You know, when you have a magic trick, you have 333 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: two sides. You have the magician, you have the audience, 334 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: and there is a contract between the two. It takes 335 00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: both for that magic trick to happen and there's this. 336 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,880 Speaker 1: You know, obviously there's a with the magic trick, there's 337 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: a suspicion of disbelief, but there is this relationship that's 338 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 1: going on, and in this relationship between Alan and Lindner, 339 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 1: we see what can happen when the energy kind of shifts. 340 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:14,879 Speaker 1: According to to Linder himself, and when Linder asked him 341 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:18,479 Speaker 1: why he kept going on with it, Alan replied, quote, 342 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: because I felt I had to, because I felt you 343 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: wanted me to. That's got to be a hard blow 344 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:25,560 Speaker 1: to a therapist. Well, I mean he got part of 345 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:28,119 Speaker 1: a book in two Harper's Magazine articles out of it, 346 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: so you know, it made for a great story. Like 347 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: we said, I mean, this certainly makes me think about 348 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,600 Speaker 1: what we've covered when we talked about the Satanic panic 349 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:39,879 Speaker 1: before the idea that children were often coming up with 350 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: children or even adults were coming up with elaborate stories 351 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: of Satanic ritual abuse, basically in sessions where it seemed 352 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: like in retrospect, they were being led by the people 353 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: who were talking to them. You know, there was sort 354 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: of a meme among some police investigators and some therapists 355 00:19:57,560 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: that this kind of stuff was going on, and so 356 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: they were they were almost encouraging people to hit the 357 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: hit the tropes over and over again. And was there 358 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 1: a pentagram on the floor. You know, Well, it reminds 359 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: me of Walter Stevens's book Demon Lovers about witchcraft persecution. Yeah, 360 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: and he pointed out was quoting some particular individual or 361 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 1: another who pointed out that that the the story that 362 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: was extracted from suspect suspected witches were always the same 363 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: because there was a particular story they wanted to extract. Yeah, 364 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 1: you can't. You can't imagine that all of these suspected 365 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,960 Speaker 1: witches came up with the same story. Yeah, it had 366 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 1: to be there in the people who were extracting it, right, right, 367 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: and they and it had to be a story that 368 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: fit existing motifs and and sort of supported existing arguments. Now, 369 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: I guess that's not exactly analogous to hear because Alan 370 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: had his own mythology. But it seems like Lindner once 371 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 1: he got into it, as saying he was coaxing it. 372 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: He was asking, you know, keep it coming. All right. Well, 373 00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: on that note, we're going to take a quick break. 374 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: Can we come back. We'll discuss some ideas about who 375 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: Kirk Allen might have actually been all right, we're back, 376 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: all right, So Robert, you've got some theories to present 377 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: on who Kirk Allen might have been. I assume it 378 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:19,600 Speaker 1: was not William Shatner. No, I think the shad is 379 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,360 Speaker 1: in the clear on this one. But yeah, so we've 380 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:26,880 Speaker 1: had a few suspects pop up over the decades since 381 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 1: this case first came up. What were the possibly fictionalized, 382 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: possibly true clues that Lindner gave that he had the 383 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: same name as the hero of a science fiction story, right, 384 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,359 Speaker 1: so we have that to go on. And of course 385 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: Lynner said that he was a nuclear physicist, which some 386 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 1: theories like stick to that and say, all right, let's 387 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: look for a physicist. Others say, well, that could be 388 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: the fictionalized element. Let's look for other individuals who say, 389 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 1: may have worked somewhere where they had a particularly high 390 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,680 Speaker 1: security clearance or in other or were engaged in something 391 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: simil but not identical to the work described in the 392 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 1: jet propelled couch. I wonder if it was the pivotal 393 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: Manhattan Project researcher Flash Gordon's. Well, see, that's the kind 394 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: of thing that would be a red flag. Of course, 395 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: the other aspect being the idea that kirk Allen wrote 396 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: a lot, and therefore it makes sense to look at 397 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:23,479 Speaker 1: writers individuals who were highly published in sci fi of 398 00:22:23,520 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: the time. And so for this reason, one of the 399 00:22:26,000 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 1: key candidates that's been brought up over the years was 400 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: a man by the name of Paul Line Barger aka 401 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: Cordwainer Smith. That was his pseudonym his writing name. Oh 402 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: and by the way, Line Barger was born in nineteen 403 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 1: thirteen died in nineteen sixty six. He was a prolific 404 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 1: sci fi writer of stories all set within a single, 405 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: expansive and interconnected universe. And in his day job he 406 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: wasn't a nuclear physicist, but he was an East Asia 407 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: scholar and a psychological warfare expert. Now not quite a physicist, obviously, 408 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: but one could see where the kirk Allen story might 409 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 1: well have hit the same key points without exposing his identity. Plus, 410 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: who better to dupe a psycho analyst into borderline delusion 411 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: than an expert in psychological warfare? Right. However, there's no 412 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: real solid proof to back this idea up. Yeah, so 413 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: I had never heard of this guy, and I looked 414 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: up his stories to see what kind of stuff he 415 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 1: wrote about. If he kind of went along with the 416 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: Linener story, and a lot of Cordwainer Smith's sci fi 417 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: stories were set in a future earth after a nuclear war, 418 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: where humanity is ruled by a system of government almost 419 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 1: like a kind of priesthood known as the instrumentality of mankind. 420 00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: Huh interesting. You know, I've never read any of his work, 421 00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: but I would be very interested to because another author 422 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: of note with a background as an East Asian scholar 423 00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: was Mr Barker, who I've mentioned on the show before 424 00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: I lived nineteen twenty nine through twenty twelve, who wrote 425 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:00,920 Speaker 1: The Man of Gold and created the early RP world 426 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: of Tekumel. So I would I would just be very 427 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: interested to see, like how he incorporates East Asian motifs 428 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:15,560 Speaker 1: into this sci fi universe potentially. Oh, that's kind of interesting. Yeah. 429 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: Cord Wayner Smith sometimes is said to have had an 430 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: unusual writing style, where some of his stories are almost 431 00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: more like Chinese folk tales. Oh. Oh, interesting, Now, I 432 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: was really interested in this idea of the instrumentality of mankind. 433 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,679 Speaker 1: If this is too much of a horrible tangent, we 434 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 1: can cut this out. But I looked it up and 435 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 1: I was like, what does he write about the instrumentality 436 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:39,399 Speaker 1: of mankind. I've got to know more about that. So 437 00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: this is from a story called drunk Boat, where Cordwayner 438 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:46,600 Speaker 1: Smith writes, quote, the instrumentality was a self perpetuating body 439 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: of men with enormous powers and a strict code. Each 440 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 1: was a plenium of the low, the middle, and the 441 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 1: high justice. Each could do anything he found necessary or 442 00:24:56,000 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: proper to maintain the instrumentality and keep the peace between 443 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: the worlds. But if he made a mistake or committed 444 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: a wrong ah, then it was suddenly different. Any lord 445 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: could put another lord to death in an emergency, but 446 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,239 Speaker 1: he was assured of a death and disgrace himself if 447 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: he assumed this responsibility. The only difference between ratification and 448 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:20,959 Speaker 1: repudiation came in the fact that lords who killed in 449 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: an emergency and were proved wrong were marked down on 450 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: a very shameful list, while those who killed other lords rightly, 451 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 1: as later examination might prove, were listed on a very 452 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: honorable list, but still killed. With three lords, the situation 453 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: was different. Three lords made an emergency court. If they 454 00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:42,080 Speaker 1: acted together, acted in good faith, and reported to the 455 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 1: computers of the Instrumentality, they were exempt from punishment, though 456 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: not from blame or even reduction to civilian status. Seven lords, 457 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 1: or all the lords on a given planet at a 458 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 1: given moment, were beyond any criticism except that of a 459 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: dignified reversal of their actions should a later ruling prove 460 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: them wrong. So my two thoughts on this are that one, 461 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: this sounds like complex and very interesting, but on the other, 462 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: I am afraid that this is what I sound like 463 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: when I explained my fiction to someone. You know that 464 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: they're just going to set there saying what the three 465 00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: lords run? All this by me? Again, it's so many rules, 466 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:22,160 Speaker 1: but also it's like, I don't know, I was wondering. 467 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: It's almost like a weird combination of what you've described 468 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: of Ian m Banks the culture, but also with elements 469 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: of like honor culture and bearing individual responsibility for the 470 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: action for one's actions. Now, again, without having read into 471 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,000 Speaker 1: his work, I also have to assume that this is 472 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,119 Speaker 1: just a bit of exposition and that most of a 473 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 1: lot of the rest of the text is going to 474 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: be more of a like an old fashioned sci fi 475 00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: adventure swashbuckling kind of thing. Yeah, I think, well, there 476 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,359 Speaker 1: are obviously characters. I think some of the Lords of 477 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: the Instrumentality are characters in this But but I haven't 478 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: read it yet, so I'm interested to check it out. 479 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,439 Speaker 1: Might be worth a look. One more quick excerpt here 480 00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: from the same passage. This was all the business of 481 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: the Instrumentality. The Instrumentality had the perpetual slogan watch but 482 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 1: do not govern, stop war but do not wage it, 483 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: protect but do not control, and first survive exclamation point. 484 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,199 Speaker 1: I like that. Yeah. So much sci fi of the 485 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 1: present is very pessimistic, especially about the power of governments. 486 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,920 Speaker 1: I mean, with quite good reason. I understand that pessimism, 487 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: but sometimes it's kind of refreshing to see somebody engaging 488 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:36,520 Speaker 1: in at least some moderate utopianism about future governing systems. 489 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: I think of, like, what's an example, Oh, the culture 490 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: is kind of like that, isn't it. Yeah, And Star 491 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: Trek has always been a classic example of that, especially 492 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, original Trek was very much an optimistic, almost 493 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: a religious idea of where science could take us. Just 494 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 1: don't think too hard about the teleportation right of where 495 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 1: science could take somebody, ain't quite you, Yes, Now, there 496 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: are a couple of other potential candidates that have been 497 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,119 Speaker 1: brought up over the years. For instance, some amateur detectives 498 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: point to an actual physicist who had the name John Carter, 499 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: as in John Carter of Mars. So obviously, when you 500 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: have that name as common as it is, one might say, hey, 501 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: maybe that's our kirk Allen. And then there's another possibility 502 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: that has been brought up, a man by the name 503 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:30,919 Speaker 1: of Francis Burton Harrison the Second aka Kiko, who worked 504 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: at Los Almost National Laboratory, much like kirk Allen supposedly 505 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: did from fifty two to ninety two. And this idea 506 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: was proposed by Saul Paul Seirig in The New York 507 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 1: Review of Science Fiction. But of course, in all this 508 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: we have to recognize that the real kirk Allen could 509 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: have been none of these men, and we don't know 510 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: to what degree the details were changed in the writing 511 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: to either protect the patient's identity and also perhaps make 512 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: the story a little more engaging for some reason or another. Yeah, 513 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: it's true that we don't really know. I mean, it's 514 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: hard to know to what extent Lindener's story is true, 515 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: which elements are fictionalized, how much he may have embellished. 516 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: Sagan takes it as an instructive lesson, even if we 517 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: can't know for sure which parts have been embellished and 518 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 1: all that. But I do think we can go to 519 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: other examples of relationships between patients and therapists that have 520 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: been two way in this kind of way, where in 521 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: some sense there's a cooperative lack of skepticism. And maybe 522 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,560 Speaker 1: we should follow Sagan toward another one of those examples, 523 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: right because in the book, and in relation to this example, 524 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 1: he mentions UFO sidings, the alien abduction experiences, and of 525 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: course satanic ritualized abuse allegations. UFO abductions seem to be 526 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: the main context of this coinac that's the wh he 527 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 1: spends the most time with that. He does deal with 528 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: the this satanic ritualized abuse a fair amount as well. 529 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: But in all these cases, you know, he says that 530 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: the encouraging individuals are you know, they're often mere teachers, counselors, 531 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: or other authority figures, and they may be deep within 532 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 1: the altered reality of UFO theory or you know, satanic 533 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,800 Speaker 1: cult theory. For instance, u f U UFO therapist who 534 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,560 Speaker 1: advertised in the back of publications about UFO sidings. Oh no, yeah, 535 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: so obviously that's probably not the that's it's probably you 536 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: know what you're going to get when you when you 537 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: seek someone out like that, and especially if they give 538 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: you material about UFO sidings for you to then read well. 539 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: By recruiting from the pages of UFO citing publications, essentially 540 00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: you are almost guaranteeing that your patient already has things 541 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: to draw from. Right. So the same can be true 542 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: if if you had an individual and there was some 543 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,480 Speaker 1: question of possible abuse, and then the person who weighed 544 00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: in on it was, say, a social worker given to 545 00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: religious fundamentalist ideas. Still Second points out to the idea 546 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 1: that some psychiatrists and others with some degree of scientific 547 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: training that they could find them so they could give 548 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: themselves over to This kind of nonsense is startling. You 549 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: know that you have people who do have some training 550 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 1: in skeptical thinking, perhaps a lot of training in skeptical thinking, 551 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,880 Speaker 1: and they can still slide down the slippery slope. Yeah, 552 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: but it's a good reminder that people of scientific training 553 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:31,400 Speaker 1: are not superhumans. You know that they're not rationality machines. 554 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: Scientific training is just it is an aid to proper 555 00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: critical thinking, but it's not something that makes you invincible. Yeah, 556 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: it's a reminder that there's a challenge in thinking critically 557 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 1: and not simply chasing after the explanation that feels best, 558 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: or is more emotionally transferred or appeals to something deep 559 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: inside us. No, we have to ask which explanation stands 560 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: the test of critical evaluation, in which one requires the 561 00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 1: fewest leaps of faith. Segan says. Quote A friend of 562 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,520 Speaker 1: mine claims that the only interesting question in the alien 563 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: abduction paradigm is who's conning. Who is the client deceiving 564 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,000 Speaker 1: the therapist, or vice versa. I disagree. For one thing, 565 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 1: there are many other interesting questions about claims of alien abduction. 566 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: For another, those two alternatives aren't mutually exclusive. And again, 567 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: this comes back to that idea I mentioned earlier about 568 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: the magic trick, the fact that you need the magician 569 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: and the audience for the trick to exist. Well, yeah, 570 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,280 Speaker 1: I mean, in a way, the audience is also, in 571 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,200 Speaker 1: a kind of limited sense, tricking the magician, because the 572 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 1: audience is playing along. The audience doesn't really think magic 573 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 1: is happening on the stage, but they're pretending to think 574 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 1: that magic is happening on the stage in order to 575 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: allow the magician to continue doing the magic without embarrassment. 576 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: Like if the audience was all just scoffing the entire time, 577 00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 1: the magician would not feel like continuing. Right, And in 578 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: the context of a magic show, that type of audience 579 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: member sucks. No, nobody wants to sit next to that person, right, 580 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 1: because you've entered a social contract when you go to 581 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: a magic show. You there's an unspoken agreement between everyone 582 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 1: that says, we'll all just pretend we're seeing magic here. 583 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: You know, you don't have to be like, that's not real, 584 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: he made that up. I know. When't suck if the 585 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: person to your left at a magic show was just 586 00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 1: a total you know, just pointing out how every trick 587 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: is done and just telling you how fake it is 588 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 1: at every second, and then the person to you're right 589 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,240 Speaker 1: thinks that it is real and is blasphemous and is 590 00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 1: just screaming witchcraft at the stage. Well, both of those 591 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: are the wrong way to experience a magic show. Right. 592 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: You go to a magic show knowing it's all fake, 593 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,360 Speaker 1: but pretending it's real for fun, And a magic show 594 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: is a safe environment. I think that the problem in 595 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: real life is you don't want to slide into another category, 596 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 1: you know, and I actually encountered this a lot. We 597 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 1: encountered this with some listeners writing in about conspiracy theories 598 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 1: and and you know, wacky or more fringe idea that 599 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: come up sometimes, and how they and how it's safe 600 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 1: when they engage with them, and they can say, oh, 601 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,680 Speaker 1: I can read about this and it's it's interesting, it's wacky, 602 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: et cetera. But we all want to be able to 603 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:13,800 Speaker 1: stay in that place, right, to stay in the center 604 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,760 Speaker 1: of the middle of those three seats in the theater. 605 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 1: And I don't know if it is always safe, because 606 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: I think you know, the media we consume and the 607 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: things we expose ourselves to work on us. They work 608 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 1: on us in ways that we're not always aware of. 609 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: It's the same way that people think advertising doesn't work 610 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: on me, it works on other people. It doesn't work 611 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: on me. I'm immune to it. I can watch a 612 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,319 Speaker 1: million commercials and it will never change my purchasing behaviors. 613 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: You are not immune to advertising. It works on you. 614 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: And also, by that same token, I think people need 615 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 1: to be careful what kinds of say, conspiracy media they 616 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 1: expose themselves to, because I know exactly what you're talking about. 617 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 1: There are a lot of people who are skeptics who 618 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: do not they're not conspiracy theorists, they're not buying into 619 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: the flat earth. But they might say, watch conspiracy theory 620 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,760 Speaker 1: videos on YouTube because they think it's funny. But when 621 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,919 Speaker 1: you expose yourself to that kind of thing a lot, 622 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 1: I think, I think sometimes it can start to make 623 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:16,759 Speaker 1: gears turn in your mind. It can start to kind 624 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,160 Speaker 1: of work on you. Even if you try to practice 625 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: a certain level of detachment, there are there are ways 626 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 1: in which we start just kind of succumbing to what 627 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: we're exposed to. Yeah, I've seen it argued that one 628 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 1: of the problems with conspiracy theories, uh is that there 629 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 1: is an underlying, uh, teleological explanation for the world. Uh. 630 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:40,560 Speaker 1: And so even if you're if you're just not for 631 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: a second one over by the idea that that there 632 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: are lizard men living in the center of the hollow 633 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,839 Speaker 1: Worth or what have you, or that there's some sort 634 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,680 Speaker 1: of massive uh you know, conspiracy you know, doing something 635 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: to or a watter and whatever the conspiracy theory happens 636 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: to be, you might not be one over by the details. 637 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: But but what if they underlying teleological explanation for reality 638 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: takes hold the idea that things are happening for a reason. Yeah, 639 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 1: and then how might that make you more susceptible to 640 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:16,799 Speaker 1: other teleological concepts that are not actually healthy for an 641 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 1: objective understanding of the world. Well, I think a huge 642 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 1: part of the appeal of conspiracy theory, literature and videos 643 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,240 Speaker 1: and all that, not just conspiracy theories, but alien abduction 644 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: stuff and all that is the conspiracy part. It's not 645 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 1: just it's not just that I believe the Earth is 646 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: actually flat and people say it's a ball, but actually 647 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: it's flat. It's that the government is lying to us 648 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,440 Speaker 1: about the shape of the Earth and scientists are lying 649 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: like That's the crucial part, because to believe in a 650 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: conspiracy like that that's being perpetuated by all these people 651 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,319 Speaker 1: with power does give you a sense of Okay, there 652 00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: is a meaningful conflict, and I can understand who the 653 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 1: villains are and that they're doing something like it gives 654 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: you a sense of purpose, the same way that war 655 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: gives people a sense of purpose. Exactly. That's a very 656 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,239 Speaker 1: good point, though I've never quite figured out why exactly 657 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: the scientists want people to believe that it's a ball 658 00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 1: instead of well, was this ever explored on the X Files. 659 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: Did they ever get into I don't think they ever 660 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: did Hollow Earth? But hey, speaking of the X Files, 661 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 1: maybe we should come back to Carl Sagan and the 662 00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: idea of insufficiently critical therapists dealing with people who have 663 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 1: a delusion like that. So let's take a break and 664 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: then when we come back, we can get into John E. Mac. 665 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,719 Speaker 1: All Right, we're back, all right. So part of the 666 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: context for Sagan's discussion of the whole Linener and kirk 667 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:50,560 Speaker 1: Allen phenomenon is the Harvard psychiatrist John E. Mack, and 668 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: Sagan talks about Mac a lot, right, Yes, Yeah, he 669 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: spends a fair amount of time with him, Like he 670 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: initially brings him up in the book, because he is 671 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,400 Speaker 1: he's talking about dreams. He brings up Max's nineteen seventy 672 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:08,359 Speaker 1: book Nightmares and Human Conflict, in which Mac writes that 673 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: there's a period in childhood development in which there's a 674 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,319 Speaker 1: little distinction regarding the difference between dreams and reality, and 675 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,239 Speaker 1: the establishment of this distinction is quote hard one. Now, 676 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's necessarily true, but it seems plausible. 677 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,640 Speaker 1: The main point that Sagan makes is like this passage. 678 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: This book even would would indicate that Mac is a 679 00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: professional capable of realizing that dream hallucinations, that these can 680 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:41,960 Speaker 1: have a huge influence on how we perceive reality. And 681 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: Mac did start as a respectable mainstream psychiatrist. Yes, Sagan 682 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,359 Speaker 1: mentions that he'd known him for many years. They were 683 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: both involved in the Nobel Peace Prize winning Physicians for 684 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: Social Responsibility movement. I think they were both, didn't They 685 00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: both campaign against nuclear weapons. Yes, that was a part 686 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: of this. Yeah. It's also be mentioned that Mac won 687 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,200 Speaker 1: a Pulitzer for his biography of T. E. Lawrence, a 688 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 1: Prince of our Disorder, Oh, of Lawrence of Arabia. Yeah, yeah, 689 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,840 Speaker 1: So yeah, he didn't just climb out of the woodwork 690 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,480 Speaker 1: and start advertising ufology courses in the back of a 691 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:18,120 Speaker 1: magazine or anything like this. This guy had credentials. Now, 692 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,880 Speaker 1: earlier I mentioned the connection between John Mack and the 693 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 1: X Files. Why Mac in the X Files? How do 694 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: those things go together? Well, because he was a big 695 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: proponent of the reality of alien abduction experiences at some level, 696 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 1: at some kind of mysterious level. But also because in 697 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: the X Files, Robert, I'm sure you remember this from 698 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,800 Speaker 1: some point or have you not watched The X Files, Like, 699 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: I've seen two episodes, Remember I've seen I've seen the 700 00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: creature that lives in the porta potty. Oh, that's a 701 00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: good one. Yeah, and the one about the invisible elephant 702 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 1: the twoisdes Oh, that's the worst one ever. You've seen 703 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,319 Speaker 1: one of the best ones in one of the worst ones. Yeah, 704 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,080 Speaker 1: the complete experience. Well, you have missed out on one 705 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: of my favorite running themes in the show, which is 706 00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: deep regression hypnosis. So whenever Moulder and Scully come across 707 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,319 Speaker 1: somebody who's experiencing missing time, they can't figure out what's 708 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,640 Speaker 1: going on, Where did all that? Where did that night go? 709 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 1: Mulder recommends deep regression hypnosis. And this, of course is 710 00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: a great you know, it leads to jokes in our 711 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,080 Speaker 1: house like I can't remember where I put the gardening gloves. Well, 712 00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: let's try deep regression hypnosis. And so Christian and I 713 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 1: actually talked about John Mack back when we did our 714 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: two parter on the Science of The X Files a 715 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: few years ago, because we were talking about deep regression 716 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 1: hypnosis in that episode. But so, what does that have 717 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 1: to do with John Mack. Well, apparently in the nineteen 718 00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,360 Speaker 1: nineties when Chris Carter was developing the idea of the 719 00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 1: X files. Part of what got him going, part of 720 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: what got him into the all of the intellectual fodder 721 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,799 Speaker 1: and territory that would become the X Files, was the 722 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,000 Speaker 1: work of John Mack. And as we were saying, Mack 723 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 1: was originally a respected psychiatrist. He was Harvard Medical faculty, 724 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:02,120 Speaker 1: but he became very interesting in alien abduction experience, not 725 00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: just in the subjective experiences of his patients, but increasingly 726 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,600 Speaker 1: in the underlying reality of alien abductions. And he worked 727 00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,839 Speaker 1: with more than two hundred people who claimed to have 728 00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:15,880 Speaker 1: been abducted by aliens, and so he appears to have 729 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 1: believed them, But then again, sometimes it's hard to tell. 730 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,040 Speaker 1: He would say things that sounded kind of waffly, like 731 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: he would seem to say he believed, but then he 732 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,120 Speaker 1: would also hedge. Here's one quote when he was talking 733 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:30,279 Speaker 1: to the BBC quote, I would never say, yes, there 734 00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: are aliens taking people, but I would say, there is 735 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,399 Speaker 1: a compelling, powerful phenomenon here that I can't account for 736 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:41,120 Speaker 1: in any other way. That's mysterious. Yet I can't know 737 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,560 Speaker 1: what it is. But it seems to me that it 738 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: invites a deeper further inquiry. And to me, this kind 739 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,480 Speaker 1: of statement, it comes back to Sagan's fire breathing dragon, 740 00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: the invisible dragon in the garage. What specifically is it 741 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,360 Speaker 1: that's so mysterious, Like you should always be cautious. I 742 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: think when somebody in that there something is real and 743 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: highly significant, But when you ask them for further clarifying questions, 744 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,520 Speaker 1: they sort of retreat to the defensive battlements of vagueness 745 00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 1: and mystery and must be something and can't be explained. Like, 746 00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: let's not let's not be too quick to judge here 747 00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:20,719 Speaker 1: about this, about this idea that there's a dragon in 748 00:42:20,719 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: the garage, because clearly we're talking about it. Something's going 749 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 1: on here, Yeah, exactly. I mean, maybe maybe it's not 750 00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,160 Speaker 1: a dragon, maybe it is, maybe it's not. Who's to say, 751 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:34,319 Speaker 1: But clearly something very significant is in the garage. But yeah, 752 00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:36,879 Speaker 1: when people talk like that, you very often will hear 753 00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: them in a different context with a different audience talk 754 00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: more like so when I encountered the dragon in the 755 00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: garage and when he blessed me with his holy cold fire. 756 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 1: But anyway, back to John Max, So, one of the 757 00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,680 Speaker 1: things that Mac did in his sessions with people who 758 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: claim to have had UFO abduction experiences. Is he would 759 00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,920 Speaker 1: sometimes use something like him hypnos. I think he referred 760 00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: to it more often as relaxation techniques, but he would 761 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,919 Speaker 1: he would put people in a hypnotized state and say, Okay, 762 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:11,760 Speaker 1: let's draw out details of your experience with alien abduction 763 00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:14,919 Speaker 1: and flesh out all of the vague parts that way, 764 00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: which just I mean, we know lots of reasons now 765 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:22,680 Speaker 1: why that's not a good strategy for getting accurate information 766 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:25,359 Speaker 1: about what happened to people. And you think you would 767 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,920 Speaker 1: have thought more people would have would have been inclued 768 00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,200 Speaker 1: into that, just by the fact that to think about 769 00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,920 Speaker 1: hypnosis something that is sort of stereotypically about putting someone 770 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,960 Speaker 1: in a heightened state of suggestibility, and that's the state 771 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:42,640 Speaker 1: you're going to, you know, use to to define the 772 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,359 Speaker 1: truth of what happened. Well, yeah, I mean, so Mac 773 00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: defends he defends his practices by saying, hey, you know, 774 00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,560 Speaker 1: I think there's some criteria that make the information I 775 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,760 Speaker 1: get through these types of sessions more reliable than normal 776 00:43:56,760 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 1: face to face interviews. And so his criteria include the 777 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,880 Speaker 1: fact that he says this testimony was often against the 778 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:06,520 Speaker 1: self interest of the person giving it, So people in 779 00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:10,320 Speaker 1: this relaxation state or this hypnosis state would admit things 780 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: that were more embarrassing or something like that. He also 781 00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:18,600 Speaker 1: says that the memories recovered through this regression technique would 782 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: be more consistent with the independent reports of other abductees. 783 00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: That's another red flag, because then again, you could be 784 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 1: drawing from elements in the culture, right Yeah, I mean 785 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:33,640 Speaker 1: everybody is watching the same TV shows, They're potentially watching 786 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: the same films, they're reading the same accounts. And he 787 00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 1: also says that memories, the details of which are drawn 788 00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:46,640 Speaker 1: through regression or hypnosis tend to cause stronger emotional reactions 789 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:49,840 Speaker 1: in the patient. That also sounds not surprising and not 790 00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 1: like a true advertisement for their validity as factual. There's 791 00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,560 Speaker 1: actually a great piece in aon magazine by the writer 792 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:02,399 Speaker 1: Alexa Clay, who grew up around John. She was John 793 00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,040 Speaker 1: Mack was her mother's partner, and in this article Clay writes, quote, 794 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: I remember one summer evening in a beach house on 795 00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,760 Speaker 1: Martha's Vineyard, when I was about eleven. We all watched 796 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 1: as John regressed my aunt back into a past life. 797 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: She lay on the couch recalling an incident in which 798 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:21,200 Speaker 1: she was a forest ranger who witnessed the death of 799 00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:24,520 Speaker 1: a few people during some kind of avalanche. My aunt 800 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,759 Speaker 1: later told me that she was fully conscious of the 801 00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,000 Speaker 1: experience but couldn't control what she was saying. It was 802 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:33,279 Speaker 1: like she was watching herself tell a story. John later 803 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: tried to hypnotize my brother so that he wouldn't be 804 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: afraid of spiders and listening to this kind of story 805 00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:42,160 Speaker 1: that Clay tells. I don't know. This was the conclusion 806 00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,160 Speaker 1: I came to back when Christian and I talked about this, 807 00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 1: and I feel the same way now you hear these 808 00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:51,680 Speaker 1: overt signs that it sounds like John Mack was somebody 809 00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 1: who was kind of chasing something, right. I mean, it's 810 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 1: hard to diagnose from afar, but it really seems like 811 00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: this is somebody who's looking for ways to believe. Yeah, 812 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 1: and again, it reminds me of this idea of that 813 00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,280 Speaker 1: while Steven's presented in Demon Lovers, the idea that the 814 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:14,040 Speaker 1: the witchcraft theorist in the Witchcraft, essentially the persecutors we're 815 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 1: asking these questions because they wanted they wanted proof, They 816 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,279 Speaker 1: wanted proof of, ultimately of the divine. But if you 817 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:23,000 Speaker 1: can't have direct proof of the divine, at least you 818 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: can have direct proof of the demonic. And maybe he wasn't, 819 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,360 Speaker 1: maybe Mac wasn't looking for something quite so specific, but 820 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,680 Speaker 1: I mean, we can all relate to the the you know, 821 00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 1: the desire for something wondrous in our lives. I mean, 822 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,080 Speaker 1: even Carl Sagan admits that, you know, he says many times, 823 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:39,840 Speaker 1: you know that he would really love for there to 824 00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:43,800 Speaker 1: be aliens like that would be tremendous, even Carl Sagan 825 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: emotionally as a malder. Emotionally he also wants to believe. 826 00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:53,239 Speaker 1: He puts unsatisfying Scully constraints on himself to prevent him 827 00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:57,520 Speaker 1: from coming to false beliefs. So Sagan in The Demon 828 00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:00,520 Speaker 1: Hunted World he writes that Mac had once asked him 829 00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,319 Speaker 1: if there was anything to all the UFO stuff, and 830 00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 1: Sagan's answer was not much, except on the psychiatric side. 831 00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:11,400 Speaker 1: And Mac then, of course proceeds to interview all these 832 00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:14,279 Speaker 1: self identifying abductees like we've been discussing here, and he 833 00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: finds them quote completely persuasive because of the emotional power 834 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:24,720 Speaker 1: of these experiences quote, and he proposes in his book 835 00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: Abductions that quote, the power or intensity with which something 836 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,719 Speaker 1: is felt should inform us if something is true. And 837 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:37,280 Speaker 1: this is something that Sagan rightfully calls a quote dangerous doctrine. 838 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's a terrible way to judge what's true. Yeah, 839 00:47:40,040 --> 00:47:41,399 Speaker 1: I mean, because for my own part, I can think 840 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,120 Speaker 1: of a number of ideas or concepts that I feel 841 00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,640 Speaker 1: intensely about, and I can make them meaningful, you know, 842 00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,879 Speaker 1: life changing parts of my existence. But it doesn't mean 843 00:47:51,880 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: that they should inform one's objective understanding of reality. I 844 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,759 Speaker 1: cry more often about fiction than I do about the 845 00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 1: real world. I suspect I'm not alone in this. Yeah, 846 00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,799 Speaker 1: I mean, fiction is tweaked in a way to maximize 847 00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,239 Speaker 1: these reactions, right, but Sagan he says that he finds 848 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:13,040 Speaker 1: it perplexing. Then an expert like Mac who recognized the 849 00:48:13,040 --> 00:48:15,880 Speaker 1: power of dreams and hallucinations would jump to this conclusion. 850 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:21,160 Speaker 1: Alien should be an explanation of last refuge, and Sagan 851 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,160 Speaker 1: also writes that if the Kirk Allen story is one 852 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,880 Speaker 1: of a patient saving the therapist, then Maac was perhaps 853 00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,200 Speaker 1: not so lucky. Well, the question I have is the 854 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,719 Speaker 1: question I have about the comparison between the two is 855 00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:36,160 Speaker 1: one that's earlier. Just based on these quotes you've read 856 00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,239 Speaker 1: so far, do you think do you think mac already 857 00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:44,600 Speaker 1: had a predisposition to believe in alien abduction before he 858 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,640 Speaker 1: got into interviewing these patients or do you think like Lindner, 859 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 1: he got wrapped up in a relationship with the patient 860 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,840 Speaker 1: and that emotional relationship of trying to treat the patient 861 00:48:55,960 --> 00:49:00,440 Speaker 1: infected him with the alien abduction belief. Do you see 862 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:02,200 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is if you more like the Kirk 863 00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:06,200 Speaker 1: Allen story or did he already believe going in? Well, 864 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:08,279 Speaker 1: I wonder if you have if the connecting thread here 865 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:10,960 Speaker 1: is that is perhaps one of empathy, like the just 866 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,759 Speaker 1: the ability to just really feel what someone is telling you. 867 00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:17,920 Speaker 1: And and certainly this is something that Christian and I 868 00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:20,280 Speaker 1: talked about when we did a two parter an alien 869 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:25,279 Speaker 1: abduction Experiences, is that that even though we deny the 870 00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:29,800 Speaker 1: the uh you know, the reality of alien abduction experiences, 871 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 1: the objective reality of them, certainly there can be a 872 00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,839 Speaker 1: subjective reality. There can still be there is something there 873 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,200 Speaker 1: that that can be a trauma or an experience, no 874 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:44,880 Speaker 1: matter how warped it has become through manipulation of memory 875 00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,000 Speaker 1: or some other factor like that that there there can 876 00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 1: still be this emotional thing that is raw and real. 877 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,040 Speaker 1: And then ultimately, if you have someone who is very 878 00:49:54,400 --> 00:49:59,239 Speaker 1: receptive to those kind of, you know, emotional experiences, then yeah, 879 00:49:59,239 --> 00:50:01,440 Speaker 1: I could see where that could have an impact on 880 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,520 Speaker 1: what you believe. I think you're absolutely right. But then again, 881 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:08,120 Speaker 1: we also don't want to accidentally make it seem like, 882 00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, oh, if you care about somebody, if you 883 00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:14,359 Speaker 1: have an empathetic connection with them, then you just want 884 00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,319 Speaker 1: to validate all the things they believe that clearly aren't true. 885 00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,000 Speaker 1: Because you don't want to do that either. I mean 886 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,480 Speaker 1: that that's harmful to people. You don't want to validate 887 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:26,719 Speaker 1: people's delusions. So I guess the trouble is finding ways to, 888 00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: you know, to to relate to people in a positive way, 889 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,440 Speaker 1: to show you care, but without telling them, hey, you're 890 00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,919 Speaker 1: right about being abducted by an alien. That really did happen, right, 891 00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:40,000 Speaker 1: I mean, it really underlies the immense responsibility that is 892 00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:45,640 Speaker 1: that is undertaken by professional psychologists and therapists. Yeah, you 893 00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,120 Speaker 1: have to be able to to in a sense, walk 894 00:50:48,160 --> 00:50:51,840 Speaker 1: that line and not fall into some of the pitfalls 895 00:50:51,840 --> 00:50:54,920 Speaker 1: on either side. Now, of course, I have to be. 896 00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,880 Speaker 1: I have to point out too that in both max 897 00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: case and Linener's case, they both were able to get 898 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:05,040 Speaker 1: some books out of this and probably get some you know, 899 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,680 Speaker 1: some book advances. So so what if you have a 900 00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,480 Speaker 1: cynical approach to well, I mean, if there's I mean, 901 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: we're all on this to make money. So I you know, 902 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: I understand the inclination, but I don't know. I mean, 903 00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,920 Speaker 1: I admit, I you know, I'm not like his biographer 904 00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:26,560 Speaker 1: or anything, but I've read a decent amount of mac 905 00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:31,480 Speaker 1: and it it seems to me like he is genuinely 906 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,720 Speaker 1: mistaken about things. I don't get a very cynical vibe 907 00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,440 Speaker 1: from him. Yeah, I get the feeling that he's somebody 908 00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,319 Speaker 1: who was smart, who was even wise in a way, 909 00:51:40,920 --> 00:51:44,720 Speaker 1: but who just got led down a really unfortunate path 910 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,360 Speaker 1: of credulity about you know, kind of vague beliefs that 911 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:51,000 Speaker 1: he couldn't back up with evidence. Yeah, I mean it 912 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: comes down to just all those interviews that he would did, 913 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,960 Speaker 1: hundreds of interviews, Like how often is he interacting with 914 00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,840 Speaker 1: this worldview that is, uh, that doesn't actually represent reality? 915 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,160 Speaker 1: And I can see where that could take a toll 916 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,160 Speaker 1: After a while, all right, So there you have it. 917 00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,719 Speaker 1: This is the first of two episodes that we're going 918 00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:11,279 Speaker 1: to do. So we're not done with kirk Allen just yet. No. 919 00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:15,000 Speaker 1: One of the things we haven't even explored yet is 920 00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:18,200 Speaker 1: the whole science of daydreaming and what it means when, 921 00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,879 Speaker 1: because so at the resolution of the story, we hear 922 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:24,960 Speaker 1: that kirk Allen in fact does not necessarily believe he's 923 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,040 Speaker 1: traveling to the future and all that he was just 924 00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: keeping it going in order to satisfy Lendner's curiosity. But 925 00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:35,840 Speaker 1: still supposedly he was. According to the Lindner's account, something 926 00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:41,480 Speaker 1: was bad enough that his employers called in a psychoanalyst. Right, 927 00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,279 Speaker 1: he was clearly spending a lot of time daydreaming about 928 00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,239 Speaker 1: these science fiction worlds. So what's going on there when 929 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,560 Speaker 1: people are not necessarily deluded about what's real and what's not, 930 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:54,000 Speaker 1: but they're spending lots of time in an internal fantasy 931 00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,480 Speaker 1: to the detriment of their work life and their relationships. 932 00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,839 Speaker 1: Well we'll discuss it on the next episode of Stuff 933 00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,759 Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind, And in the meantime, you can 934 00:53:02,760 --> 00:53:04,640 Speaker 1: head on over to Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. 935 00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,160 Speaker 1: That's the mothership, that's where you'll find everything that we're 936 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,040 Speaker 1: up to, so you'll find all the podcast episodes there. 937 00:53:10,360 --> 00:53:12,800 Speaker 1: You also find some instructive tabs at the top of 938 00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,200 Speaker 1: the page, such as our store tab, where you'll find 939 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,160 Speaker 1: our fabulous collection of you know of merchandise with our 940 00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:22,960 Speaker 1: logo or show specific designs merch up, yeah, and then hey. 941 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:25,480 Speaker 1: You also find links out to our various social media accounts, 942 00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 1: and just general ways to get in touch with us. 943 00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:32,000 Speaker 1: Big thanks as always to our wonderful audio producers Alex 944 00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:34,600 Speaker 1: Williams and Tary Harrison. If you would like to get 945 00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:36,880 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback about this episode or 946 00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:41,040 Speaker 1: any other, with ideas for future topics, or with just 947 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,359 Speaker 1: just general greetings you want to say hi, you can 948 00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:55,920 Speaker 1: email us at blow the Mind at HowStuffWorks dot com 949 00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,520 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does 950 00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:08,080 Speaker 1: it HowStuffWorks dot commentat