WEBVTT - Devil in the Details 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.360 There's always some tension in every trial. This one, I 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:09.440 would say, is an eight and a half or nine 0:00:09.440 --> 0:00:14.480 out of ten. He shop, I've seen little over space. 0:00:15.920 --> 0:00:18.520 The bullet ended up in the frontal lobe of the brain. 0:00:19.720 --> 0:00:22.079 I mean, there's a lot of steakecare for both sides. 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:26.440 On the one side, the prosecution is overseeing the most expensive, 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.600 most complex trial in the history of Ohio, and on 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:31.880 the other hand, the defense is trying to save a 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:36.400 guy's life. So no matter how you slice this, it 0:00:36.560 --> 0:00:45.120 is still life and death. This is The Piked and 0:00:45.200 --> 0:00:52.800 Massacre Season four, Episode four, Devil in the Details. I'm 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.520 Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:00.360 Leidecker and Jeff Shane. We've been following this case moosly 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.600 for almost five years, and it's surreal to see it 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.600 all begin to unravel in a brick red nineteenth century 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.479 courthouse on Second Street in Waverley, Ohio, a cozy town 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:13.240 of four thousand on the Siota River. It's important to 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.160 note that George Wagner, the fourth who's currently on trial, 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.200 has pleaded not guilty and has maintained he did not 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:24.600 kill anyone. His father Billy Wagner, whose trial is upcoming, 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:30.080 has also pleaded not guilty to all charges. George Wagner 0:01:30.080 --> 0:01:32.240 the Fourth says he has absolutely nothing to do with 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:35.360 the eight murders. His brother Jake and mother Angela have 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.200 pled guilty too. But the prosecution believes they can put 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.640 George Wagner the Fourth at the scene of the killings, 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:46.400 or at least prove he was part of the murder conspiracy. Soon, 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.279 Jake Wagner and Angela Wagner will take the stand against 0:01:50.320 --> 0:01:55.880 their family. Here's reporter James Pilcher. It depends on how 0:01:55.920 --> 0:02:02.600 believable the jury finds Jake and Angela, and is it 0:02:02.640 --> 0:02:05.840 possible that he works free Absolutely as possible. You never 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:10.880 can tell. Jac has previously testified that George Wagner did 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:13.960 not kill anyone. What he and his mother Angela will 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:19.280 say on the stand is anyone's guess. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.240 Keep in mind, the prosecution believes that they can put 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.120 George Wagner the Fourth at the scene of the killings, 0:02:27.639 --> 0:02:29.560 or at least they feel they can prove that he 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.280 was part of the murder conspiracy. Prosecutor Angie Kinnepp. But 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:38.040 you'll remember agreed in December twenty twenty ones hearing that 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:43.080 George Wagner the Fourth didn't kill anybody. However, unique to 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:46.320 the state of Ohio, someone can be sentenced to death 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.119 for an aggravated murder conviction and step It's an interesting 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:52.720 distinction that we really want to make clear because it 0:02:52.760 --> 0:02:56.080 means that you can be convicted even if all you 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.320 did was help plan or cover up the crimes. Jake 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:02.680 and Angela have been proven to be liars in the past. 0:03:03.080 --> 0:03:06.520 Remember after the murders, they claimed their innocence and then 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:10.040 years later, of course, changed their story. So why should 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:16.160 we believe them now. Pike County Sheriff Tracy Evans chose 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.040 not to be recorded while testifying, which is rare for 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:22.520 an elected official. We do know Evans told jurors he 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.080 was the one who determined Dana Rodin had been shot 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:27.639 to death after removing a blanket and pillow that was 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:30.640 covering her head. One key witness who agreed to be 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:34.520 recorded was Miranda Cable, a registered nurse and paramedic who 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.720 responded to the call at Frankie Rodin and Hannah Gilly's house. 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:41.080 She's one of the first responders to testify about the 0:03:41.080 --> 0:03:45.960 crime scenes. Initially, Cable thought it was a domestic violence 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.720 dispute where somebody was possibly killed. She was then directed 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.200 to a second location, where she learned they were only 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:55.400 to seize people on the scene. She then returned to 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:58.160 Hannah Gilly and Frankie Rowden's house, where the couple was 0:03:58.200 --> 0:04:01.680 found brutally slaughtered. Their six month old baby had been 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.840 discovered alive, covered in their blood. We were asked to 0:04:05.920 --> 0:04:10.120 go back to the first residence to transport a child. 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.560 And do you know that child's name? Yes, it was 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:19.360 Rod Okay. To protect the children's identities, we will beat 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.320 the use of any miners' names used in court. Do 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:29.000 you know how old Roden was at that time? Six months? Okay? 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:33.240 So five minutes later basically okay. And do you recall 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:37.839 the condition that you found in. He had blood on 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:41.480 his head, on his arms, and legs, in various parts 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:45.240 of his body. He didn't appear to have any visible injuries, 0:04:45.760 --> 0:04:50.400 showing you what's been marked as states Exhibit Q two. Again, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:52.400 if there appears to be blood on his legs and 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:55.640 feet and head and face, is that consistent with the 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.640 condition you found him in? Yes? Okay? And can you 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.600 tell us when you were exam meaning hand, did you 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.960 personally take care not to clean him up? R and 0:05:05.960 --> 0:05:15.400 he getting at that time, Forensic investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.159 the fact that Miranda, that eunt had walked in and 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:26.760 she was essentially handed over like this still living legacy, 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:32.440 if you will, that stained in blood swaddled the child. 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.800 I would imagine blood stained diaper, you know, and has 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:37.560 to make sure and at that moment, you know, you 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:39.960 can imagine. I know that I've been on scenes before 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:43.720 that were very dramatic, but in that moment time you're 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:46.400 getting a sense that everybody's been wiped out and this 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:53.600 little precious angel is still cooing and alive. The defense 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:58.840 did not cross. Timothy Dickerson, former Pike County Police officer 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.480 and director of Pike the Emergency Management, also arrived on 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.680 the scene. In his court testimony, he detailed entering Dana 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:10.240 Roden's house to find the bodies of Hanname and Chris 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:15.280 Roden Jr. It was a grizzly spectacle. Actually did my 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:20.440 vehicle went into the home, I didn't turn right, went 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:24.159 into a room and found a deceased male. He was 0:06:24.200 --> 0:06:29.760 in the bed went from there out through I guess 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:31.880 would be the living room in the kitchen area, to 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:36.719 another room where a deceased female was located, and then 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:42.400 made a right and found a third deceased female. While 0:06:42.440 --> 0:06:45.200 Dickerson was in Hanname's room, he heard a sound and 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.560 saw a baby's arms extend up from the bed in 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:51.279 which her mother had been shot to death. Who was 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:55.279 the baby's condition? From what I remember, I just remember 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:58.480 the diaper having blood on it. It was a traumatic 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:02.880 scene in a large scene, and when I discovered that 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.200 the baby was alive, I was very thankful for that. 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:07.760 Did you have a fear that the baby might not 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:16.000 have been alive? Yes. Dickerson later learned the baby was 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.760 only four days old. In his words, she was very 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:23.760 very tiny. The jury on day four was shown numerable 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:28.240 evidence photos of inside the home, bloody drag marks, blood 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:32.200 spatter on the wall, and other forensic material. All of 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:35.400 this might trigger a jury to respond in anger. The 0:07:35.480 --> 0:07:41.640 defense questioned whether all these grey exhibits were necessary. Here's 0:07:41.720 --> 0:07:46.160 James Pilcher. They dove into the third crime scene, which 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.240 was the house that belonged to Dana Manly Roden, and 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.800 that's where she her son Chris Junior, and her daughter 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.600 Hannah Roden were all found shot to death in their beds. 0:07:56.400 --> 0:07:58.960 There was a newborn infant found alive next to Hannah, 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:07.680 her newborn daughter. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff in court, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:10.840 they've been showing these autopsy photos of the victims and 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.080 the crime scenes. As we've been hearing, very graphic and 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:16.480 very disturbing. And due to the graphic nature of all 0:08:16.560 --> 0:08:19.480 these pictures and walk through, the defense has tried to 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:24.200 move for a mistrime. Basically, how it works in the 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:28.640 courtroom is behind the witness, there's a flat screen television 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:35.280 and when pictures are shown of the crime scenes in autopsies, etc. 0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.920 It goes on this big screen, and of course the 0:08:39.040 --> 0:08:43.400 jury is moved emotionally by the graphic nature of it, 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.320 and the defense is saying, hey, that's not fair. It's 0:08:47.960 --> 0:08:51.600 not proven that George has done this, so humans in 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:55.679 general are going to feel angry toward anybody who might 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.640 be associated with these photographs. And on the flip of that, 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.520 prosecutor Angie Kneppa is saying, look, this is what happened. 0:09:04.960 --> 0:09:08.360 To not show these photos is also a crime. You 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:11.720 have to see the graphic details to really know the 0:09:11.880 --> 0:09:17.040 depth of these crimes. We're going to take a break. 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:27.679 We'll be back in a moment. Defense attorney Richard Nash 0:09:27.800 --> 0:09:31.640 drilled Dickerson on where Dana Roden's home was located. Was 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:36.320 it in Pike, Adams or Sciota County. When Dickerson answered 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.479 Pike at first, the two got into a heated exchange. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.480 This was a case of an old motion rearing its 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.120 head again that the trial venue was in proper and 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:48.960 search warrants invalid because Dana's home was not technically in 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:56.640 Pike County. James Pilcher, I think if anybody's familiar with 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:00.520 old school basketball, this feels like the old four corners offense. 0:10:01.280 --> 0:10:06.280 By the defense, they are just playing stallball. They are 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.760 trying to make this thing last as long as they 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.080 can get as many jurors frustrated as they can with 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:18.640 the prosecution. After Dickerson, prosecutors called Gary Michael Mosley, a 0:10:18.640 --> 0:10:21.600 former Piked In officer who responded to the scene along 0:10:21.640 --> 0:10:25.400 with Dickerson's team. Mosley opted not to be shown on camera, 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.880 but consented to an audio recording. He says he and 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.040 his fellow deputies responded to a shots fired call at 0:10:32.120 --> 0:10:37.160 Dana Roden's house. They searched the property with extreme caution, 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.920 Gunstrawn fearing an active shooter was still on the premises. 0:10:43.920 --> 0:10:50.760 We had no idea how his audio is a little 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:53.320 bit difficult to hear, so Jeff's going to read from 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:57.520 a transcript. Guns were out. We had a plan. Once again, 0:10:57.600 --> 0:10:59.719 we had no idea. The house was designed the way 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.600 it was, so our plan was just to go in 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.640 and set up security base once we make entry and 0:11:05.679 --> 0:11:08.400 go from there and secure it. Bit by bit. We 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:10.920 opened the door and the door swings inward to the right, 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.280 so as I came in, I do what's called a 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.280 piegraph cut. I'm an active shooter instructor, and I was 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:18.640 taught that. So we come in. I spin from this 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:21.320 wall to this wall, constantly looking to see if there's 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:28.719 any threats in this room. Another key witness who took 0:11:28.760 --> 0:11:31.600 the stand was Sheriff's Lieutenant Adam Ball, who was the 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:35.480 first officer on the murder scene. Ball had no idea 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:37.440 what he was responding to when he pulled up to 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:41.280 the property. He also opted not to be recorded, but 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:44.800 Ohio Fox nineteen reporter Mike Sell relays the gist of 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:50.240 the lieutenants testimony. The first witness opted out of being recorded. 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:53.560 He has Pike County Shars Lieutenant Adam Ball. He testified 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:55.520 that he was the first officer to enter the crime 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:58.320 scene at forty seventy seven Union Hill Road where the 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:01.680 bodies of Chris Rhoden Jr. And his cousin Gary were found. 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:05.160 Lieutenant Ball, who was a corporal in twenty sixteen, says 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.120 there was so much blood when he walked into the 0:12:07.120 --> 0:12:09.800 front door that he had to climb over a treadmill 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.240 and other furniture to avoid disturbing the crime scene and 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.680 get to the back bedroom where Chris and Gary Rodan's 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:18.280 bodies were found lying together on the floor at the 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:24.479 foot of a bed. Chris Senior's fate was particularly heinous. 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:28.240 The arm he held up in self defense was blown 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:32.720 off at the elbow. Here again, forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan, 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:39.800 Chris Senior's arm was so just absolutely mangled that she 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:43.680 stated that many of the major muscleberts were visible, you 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:47.000 can see fracture bone, and she could not make heads 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:52.640 or tails. At what point the bullet entered his arm 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:57.360 and what pointed exit. That's important for us because from 0:12:57.400 --> 0:12:59.559 a forensic standpoint a scene, because that goes to the 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:03.200 dynamics of what's happening at the moment. It's not like 0:13:03.200 --> 0:13:06.280 you're shooting at a fixed paper target at a gun range. Okay, 0:13:06.720 --> 0:13:11.079 if Chriss rotated slightly to the left or to the right, 0:13:11.920 --> 0:13:13.959 that could give you an indication that he had an 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:17.440 awareness and he was being shot as opposed to straight 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.000 on where he's staring down the muzzle of this weapon. 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.640 Here again, James Pilcher, he would have bled to death 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.800 from the shot in the arm. The shot to his stomach. 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.120 He might have survived for several hours without treatment, but 0:13:33.200 --> 0:13:35.440 it would have caused sepsis and other things, and it 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:39.040 hit liver and all that. The shot to his chest 0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.120 hit his heart, he would have died within a couple 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.320 of minutes. And then of course there are the six 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.400 shots to the head, and they said that four of 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.600 the shots to the head were clearly he was already 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:55.280 lying down and not moving, so these were just on 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:59.199 top of everything else. They shot him while it's on 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:07.320 the ground, Bang bang bang. Lieutenant Ball was also the 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:11.280 one to discovered the Rodents marijuana grow operation. He described 0:14:11.360 --> 0:14:15.640 it as quote extensive, taking up a garage and outbuilding 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:19.040 an a semi trailer. He also discovered that the Rodent 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:24.840 security cameras had been dismantled. Lieutenant Ball actually went outside 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:29.360 after clearing the house because they didn't know if anybody 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.240 was still around. They didn't know if somebody was still 0:14:32.320 --> 0:14:37.600 on the property killing anybody, or armed or whatever. So 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:42.400 after clearing the trailer, Chris and Gary later they went 0:14:42.400 --> 0:14:44.920 out and cleared the property and at that point that's 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:50.200 when they found the open marijuana grow operation. And they 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.520 went upstairs and that's when they found, hey, there's cameras 0:14:53.560 --> 0:15:00.720 and wires and no DVR. The defense exploited the operation 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:03.440 to suggest that the murders could have been cartel related, 0:15:04.880 --> 0:15:08.520 a theory police have long dismissed. At one time, there 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:11.200 was a speculation that a Mexican drug cartel may have 0:15:11.240 --> 0:15:14.080 been involved in the murders, but then Ohio Attorney General 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:17.040 Mike DeWine said it was not a factor. The motive 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:19.960 was a custody dispute over Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodent's 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:24.560 two year old daughter. It's obviously too early to surmise 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:27.760 how this trial is skewing, but one glaring omission from 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:31.720 the defense is this George Wagner the fourth attorneys have 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:34.960 yet to offer up a clear, solid alibi for where 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:40.600 George was on the night of the killings. Again, James Pelcher, 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.800 they've been kind of vague on this point. They have 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:48.280 not come out and said and actually this was they 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.360 were about to say something along those lines, and they're 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:55.120 opening the defenses opening, and there was an immediate objection 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:57.560 and they went back in the chambers. Five minutes into 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:01.320 the defenses opening, you get, you get ejection from the prosecution. 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.880 It was really really strange, and they kind of intimated 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:08.320 that George stayed home and was asleep in his bed 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.760 and he was going out and he found it really 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.960 weird that Jake was up before him working. He wanted 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:17.400 nothing to do with his family and he wanted he's 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:20.160 trying to stay away from him. But they never came 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:22.280 out and said he has an alibi. That never came 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.080 out and said this is where he was. And that's 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.000 going to be the difficult thing for the defense, especially 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:31.680 when you start seeing their funds were commingled. They even 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.200 have him on recording telling his mother, I don't want 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.880 to leave. We're all here together this place as a moneymaker. 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.080 This is after they moved to Alaska. I know him 0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:44.640 jumping and have myself. But there have been evidence produced 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.119 since the first stages of the trial that have indicated 0:16:48.160 --> 0:16:50.840 that George was still part of the family. He didn't 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.560 want to leave, like the defense has indicated in their 0:16:53.600 --> 0:17:00.440 opening statements, and the prosecution is specifically tailoring there evidence 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:04.520 towards what the defense set in the opening statement that 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:06.960 George wanted to move out, George wanted nothing to do 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.760 with the family, and they're introducing evidence piece by piece 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:15.720 that that was not the kiss. Joseph Scott Morgan weighs 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.800 in on the challenges the prosecution faces to place George 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:21.160 at the scene of the crime. I think that there 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:25.359 are a lot of circumstantial issues regarding the planning. I 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:28.920 think that he had an awareness obviously, and for all 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.600 I know, he was very well in the vehicle, you know, 0:17:31.720 --> 0:17:34.359 I mean, you know, who am I to say, but 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.800 to physically put him in you know, in the trailer 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:42.960 with for instance, with Chris and Gary that night when 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.639 that hole was blown through the door, or you know, 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:49.840 when that wood was splintered and sent into Chris Senior's face. 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.640 You know, you really think you know, was he there? 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.120 You know, was he physically there while it was happening, 0:17:56.200 --> 0:17:58.480 or when the bodies are being drug from one room 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.240 to the other, you know, Which is kind of an 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.000 exclamation point in all of this because it goes to 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:08.440 the kind of the ghastliness of it all. Here again, 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:13.400 Stephanie and Jeff. At this stage, it seems that the 0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:18.080 main question is was George Wagner there and if he 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:21.240 wasn't was he a part of the planning? And if 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.760 he was a part of the planning, is he equally culpable. 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:27.280 It seems like what the defense will try to do 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.840 is hammer away at this story and argue that yes, 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:33.680 he came from a bad family, but that doesn't make 0:18:33.760 --> 0:18:37.040 him a bad guy. So, as we learned last season, 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.760 the opinion of George Wagner is a little mixed. Some 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.640 people were shocked that he was involved with the murders 0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:44.600 and had a very hard time wrapping their head around it, 0:18:44.840 --> 0:18:47.919 and other people were not surprised and thought he was 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.719 very much a part of the Wagner clan. And so 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:52.480 I think it's just going to be fascinating to watch 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:57.400 all of this play out in the courtroom. The prosecution 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:02.399 has its vulnerabilities. Also among the media pool, there is 0:19:02.440 --> 0:19:08.680 definitely a sense of questioning about the prosecution strategy and 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.440 when are they all going to tie this together? When 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:14.679 are they going to point to George being part of 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:18.920 this conspiracy because none of the physical evidence presented so far. 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.560 They're starting to get into some of the other evidence 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.440 on the wire taps and so forth, but they even 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:29.359 stipulated none of the physical evidence they found that the 0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.239 crime scenes had any of the wagoners to any of 0:19:33.240 --> 0:19:38.880 these crime scenes. Joseph Morgan theorizes about how the lack 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.800 of DNA evidence will be a possible blockade improving George 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.520 the Fourth was there the night of the slaves. It's 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:48.800 tough nowadays. You know, maybe ten years ago it wouldn't 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:50.399 have been tough, but we're in a brave new world. 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:52.919 People have an expectation that, oh, they're going to get 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.280 you and talk about DNA. I've seen that on television, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:57.720 and you get up there and it's a big fail, 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.159 you know, as far as the jury is concerned. But 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:02.520 just because you have an absence of something doesn't mean 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.000 that something hasn't occurred. It's just that that's what many 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.520 people expect. You know that we can conjure up DNA 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:11.280 and you can't. It's either there it's not, you know, 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:14.080 and I think that that's significant, and it's also significant 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:21.200 relative to fingerprints as well. Let's stop here for another break. 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.160 With eight bodies and four suspects, this is a case 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:36.600 with a dizzying number of moving pieces, and there's a 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.960 real risk of the jury being confused, allowing reasonable doubt 0:20:39.960 --> 0:20:45.040 to seep in. Here's long Crimes legal analyst Terry Austin. 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.560 The more complicated, the better for the defense. The most 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.800 complicating part of this case is keeping track of the 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.080 names and the relationships. I mean, we know already that 0:20:56.119 --> 0:20:59.800 there are eight victims for defendants for different crime scenes, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.080 and all of those individuals have people who were involved 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:06.680 in terms of finding those individuals who were killed, and 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:09.800 so the biggest issue for the prosecution is going to 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.879 keep everything straight. You want that jury to follow your story. 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:18.320 In the case of prosecution trying to pursue the claims 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:22.280 against George, it's going to be difficult to establish that motive. 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.439 They have evidence against, you know, obviously Jake against Angela, 0:21:26.480 --> 0:21:28.439 but I think it might be difficult and all you 0:21:28.520 --> 0:21:30.960 have to do, as you know, is have one juror 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:34.359 who has reasonable doubt and doesn't want to convict and 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:36.919 where you have it. So we'll see what happens. But 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:39.200 I think there could be some doubt in the case 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:43.720 against George here. And remember, this is a jury of 0:21:43.800 --> 0:21:49.560 his peers that's rooted within our family documents, and his 0:21:49.720 --> 0:21:54.560 peers consist of those that live in that small slice 0:21:55.000 --> 0:21:57.400 of the world up there that they see each other 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:00.399 day to day, you know, Walmarton at cafe and everywhere 0:22:00.400 --> 0:22:03.240 else that they go up there, they see one another 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.320 and they know one They raise their hands one another, 0:22:05.359 --> 0:22:07.320 they're driving down the road and wave, you know, and 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.000 that sort of thing. It's that kind of community. And 0:22:10.080 --> 0:22:12.679 I previously said and I'll continue to say that the 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:18.280 level of brutality that is involved in the pike and massacre, 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.159 in the murders of the road and family, again, it 0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:27.720 is something that is going to live in infamy in 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:30.200 this corner of the world. It's the type of thing 0:22:30.200 --> 0:22:32.760 that one hundred years from now, kits will sit around 0:22:33.359 --> 0:22:37.119 campfires and they will tell horror stories about this is 0:22:37.160 --> 0:22:39.800 what we're dealing with in that world. And so it's 0:22:39.840 --> 0:22:43.600 on the shoulders of this jury to weigh the evidence 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:46.080 and decide, you know, is somebody going to be made 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:48.400 to pay. But they've got a hard decision, I think, 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.919 and it's still coming and they're not there yet, but 0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:53.400 they will have a hard decision to make it by George. 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.040 So look at it this way. TV has sixty minutes, 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.600 maybe two hours, or a movie to tell a story 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:05.400 about a trial. You can only fit so much evidence. 0:23:05.440 --> 0:23:07.840 You can only fit so much dramatic moments into that. 0:23:08.400 --> 0:23:11.520 But when you're dealing with the actual rule of law 0:23:12.320 --> 0:23:16.040 and how you can introduce evidence and what kind of 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:19.159 questions you can ask and all those things, all that 0:23:19.600 --> 0:23:22.359 stuff you see on TV is out the door. So 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:27.600 what we're seeing is the very slow incremental process of 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:32.440 justice and the law. In this case, Lady gentleman, a jury, 0:23:32.480 --> 0:23:34.200 we're going to know a journ for the day, could 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.400 be going home, could be taking your badges with you. 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:43.600 I'd be leaving your notepads chairs. As Day four wrapped 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:46.320 up in the face of all the brutal evidence, presiding 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.040 Judge Randy Deering took a moment to remind the jury 0:23:49.160 --> 0:23:55.320 of their weighty responsibilities. And you know what else I'm 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:57.840 going to say, you not to discuss this case among 0:23:57.960 --> 0:24:01.439 yourselves or with anyone else. You're not to permit this 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:04.040 case to be discussed with you or in your presence. 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:08.480 You're not to form or express an opinion concerning this 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:12.520 case until it is finally submitted to you for deliberation 0:24:12.560 --> 0:24:16.560 and verdict. You m read, listen to, or view any 0:24:16.640 --> 0:24:20.600 reports or accounts of this case from any source whatsoever. 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:24.720 Even though many witnesses are opting out of being recorded, 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:28.800 the Katie Studios team and experts are there. In the 0:24:28.840 --> 0:24:32.119 coming weeks, the pieces of a devastating and complicated puzzle 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:37.119 will finally come together once and for all. I would 0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.760 say they are trying to shock the jury at this 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:44.520 point with the violence of it, for sure, because they 0:24:44.560 --> 0:24:47.960 showed the pictures of people dead in their beds or 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:53.200 on the floor or pulled into beds time and time 0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:57.840 and time again. I can't imagine. Can you even put 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:01.680 it into words what it's like or slop living in hail? 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:04.120 Really well, I was trying to get home my father, 0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:07.280 and I want a will get GREGI to let him 0:25:07.280 --> 0:25:09.800 know that his brother and his niece and nephews and 0:25:09.840 --> 0:25:13.120 stuff has been killed, Luke, said their dad, Billy Wagner, 0:25:13.280 --> 0:25:16.280 once threatened violence against his dad and his uncle, Chris 0:25:16.320 --> 0:25:19.000 Roden Senior. Luke said that while his dad and uncle 0:25:19.119 --> 0:25:21.640 were doing a good deed for Billy Wagner, Billy told 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:23.760