1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,840 Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, Robert here. UM. I recorded this with Jason 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: about two days before UM, Wizards of the Coast put 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: out an announcement completely backpedaling on everything they had been 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: planning to do to the Open Gaming License UM. Of 5 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:20,000 Speaker 1: survey of fifteen thousand fans said they were not happy 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: with the Wizards uh de authorizing UM the one point 7 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: out open gaming license and uh, I mean, what it 8 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: looks like is a lot of people unregistered from D 9 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: and D beyond and UM, a lot of people called 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: in complaining and the numbers folks at Wizards panicked. UM. 11 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: And as a result, they are completely folding on the 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,600 Speaker 1: plans to uh rescind or de authorize the open Gaming 13 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: License UM, and in factive announced that they are making it. Uh. 14 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: The exact terms they use are irrevocable and UH yeah, 15 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: that's that's good. Yeah. And they put everything under an 16 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: irrevocable creative comments license. So this is all just breaking UM. 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:05,880 Speaker 1: But I think it's broadly good news. Anytime a giant 18 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,680 Speaker 1: company chooses to do something kind of crummy with a 19 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: piece of what what I would say is actually pretty 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 1: meaningful intellectual heritage. UH, and then they get slapped down 21 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: and panic and reverse course, that's a good thing. Um. 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: It shows a number of things, which one of which 23 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: probably the most important of which is that the community 24 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:31,039 Speaker 1: of people who recognize their value in these kinds of games, 25 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: in this uh, this pastime, this recreational activity, um also 26 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: fundamentally value the essence of like what is open source ideology? 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: Which is nice, Like, it's nice to know that the 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: open source folks we can still throw a punch every 29 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: now and again, even if it's just a punch at 30 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: Wizards of the Coast. So happy ending, everybody, Happy ending. Also, 31 00:01:56,120 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: the good folks at Pizo sold out of eight months 32 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: worth of Pathfinder books in two weeks, So that's nice too. Uh, 33 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: it could happen. Here is the podcast that you are 34 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: listening to right now. I am Robert Evans. This is 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: a show about things falling apart and sometimes putting them 36 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: back together. And today we're we're taking a little bit 37 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: of a different tack. In recent weeks, you've listened to 38 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: us cover a wide variety of issues, from conflicts in 39 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:31,239 Speaker 1: places like me and mar two conflicts here at home 40 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 1: in the city of Atlanta, UM, to deep dives in 41 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,639 Speaker 1: history and all that all that good stuff. That that 42 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,640 Speaker 1: you know and love us. For today we are talking 43 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: about a subject that is unusually close to my heart, 44 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: Dungeons and Dragons. Now, I'm gonna guess, just given the 45 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: nature of our listenership, a decent chunk of you grew 46 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: up playing D and D UM, and just because of 47 00:02:54,320 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: how really shockingly suddenly it's become much more popular than 48 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: it than it ever was previously, and much more mainstream 49 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: a lot of you who may have encountered as an adult, Um, 50 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: there's a lot that's actually been written, kind of sociologically 51 00:03:08,160 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: on on what Dungeons and Dragons is. At one point 52 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: that some people will make is that it's it's kind 53 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: of the first new game that we had that that 54 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: human beings made up since like Chess, Um, by which 55 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 1: I mean you you have had war games for a 56 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,359 Speaker 1: very long period of time. But the concept of a 57 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: role playing game and the way that that D and 58 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 1: D is, where you're essentially sitting down with a group 59 00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: of people and engaging in an act of collaborative storytelling 60 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: that's kind of buttressed by a system of rules. That's 61 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: actually a pretty new idea now. Now, elements of this 62 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: have existed forever, UM and In fact, kind of an 63 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,080 Speaker 1: interesting fact you'll run into is that in the late 64 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: medieval period a lot of jousts had role playing elements, 65 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: including ones were like rulers and and their their court 66 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: would dress up as the Knights of the Round Table 67 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: and act in character as those nights. So elements of 68 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: all of this stuff have a existed for a while, 69 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 1: but when Dungeons and Dragons kind of came together as 70 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: a game for the first time, it was it is 71 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: kind of worth seeing it as as something really new 72 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: and valuable in the history of play and the history 73 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: of human creativity. Um So as a result of that, 74 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: I do kind of think I I personally think there's 75 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: something a little bit sacred about that that basic idea. 76 00:04:24,000 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: And one of the things that's really interesting to me 77 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,040 Speaker 1: about the industry that grew up around Dungeons and Dragons 78 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: is that there have always been a lot of people 79 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: in it who I think feel the same way. Um 80 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: And I think one of these people was a guy 81 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 1: named Ryan Dancey, and Ryan dancy Um was vice president 82 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: in charge of Dungeons and Dragons at Wizards of the 83 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: Coast for a while um and he helped actually negotiate 84 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,719 Speaker 1: the sale of the Dungeons and Dragons property to Wizards 85 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: of the Coast when the company that had been distributing 86 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 1: it fell apart, and Dancy was a big part of 87 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,039 Speaker 1: the institution in the year two thousand of what became 88 00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: known as the Open Gaming License, and they basically what 89 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: this meant is that the set of rules that that 90 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 1: D and D worked by, and at around two thousand, 91 00:05:07,160 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: which was I think you would call it like three 92 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: point oh, was the system in place basically got elements 93 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 1: of the mechanics got effectively open sourced. UM. And so 94 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: Wizards of the Coast UM went from what had been 95 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: the previous move of the people who had owned D 96 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: and D, which was kind of to oppose people trying 97 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: to make third party content using the ruled source, to 98 00:05:29,560 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 1: embracing it and allowing it to do that freely. UM. 99 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: And now I'm going to introduce our guest, who is 100 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: one of the people who uh is kind of the 101 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: one of the most influential folks in what happened after this, 102 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: because once the Open Gaming License came into effect, there's 103 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: suddenly this galaxy of new games and supplemental materials that 104 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: people start making, UM, which you know Wizards is not 105 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:53,160 Speaker 1: profiting from directly, but which the hobby profits from UM. 106 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: And one of the people who has who has been 107 00:05:55,400 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 1: most influential in that is our guest today Jason Bollman. Jason, 108 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: you are the the game a lead game designer at 109 00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 1: Piazzo and the creator of Pathfinder, which is the I mean, 110 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: it's not Dungeons and Dragons, but it uses as its 111 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: base that kind of open gaming uh system, and it's 112 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: it's what I play when I get a chance to 113 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: sit down and play a role playing game. So, first off, Jason, 114 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: thank you for several thousand hours of of my my 115 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: childhood and early adulthood UM spent playing path Fighter. Yeah, 116 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: well thanks for having me. And yeah, PISO kind of 117 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 1: spun off from Wizards of the Coast UM, you know, 118 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 1: back in the early days of the open game license, 119 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: and we were there official publishers of their magazine until 120 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:41,400 Speaker 1: that kind of came to an end, and then we 121 00:06:41,400 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: we started making our own game based off the open 122 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: game license. And did I did I? Did I get 123 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: all that right earlier? Do you have any kind of 124 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: clarification she'd like to add before we move further into 125 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: the conflict, And there is a conflict. We're not just 126 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: talking about how cool d Pathfighter are. I think there's 127 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,599 Speaker 1: a There's an interesting thing to note about games. Games 128 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: are kind kind of weird when it comes to copyright 129 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: and ownership, and it's kind of why the Open Game 130 00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: License is so important. Right. So TSR, the company that 131 00:07:10,400 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 1: owned Dungeons and Dragons before Wizards of the Coast, was 132 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: pretty pretty litigious, as you mentioned, um, but they ended 133 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: up getting into kind of a bind because you know, 134 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,400 Speaker 1: the game itself is one that encourages people to make 135 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: their own content, to kind of homebrew stuff and invent 136 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,840 Speaker 1: their own stories. And what it comes down to is 137 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:35,240 Speaker 1: that you know, ultimately, game mechanics can't be copyrighted. That 138 00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: that's been long held, that that those sorts of things 139 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 1: you cannot copyright. That's why you see so many versions 140 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: of like Scrabble that aren't Scrabble. Um. Yeah. And it's 141 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: why anyone can make a basketball team or a basketball 142 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 1: league and play basketball. You don't have to get the 143 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: NBA's approval to play fucking basketball exactly exactly. So the 144 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 1: Open Game License wasn't about giving everyone permission to use rules, 145 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: which is something that to already kind of do. It 146 00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: was about giving them kind of a safe harbor, a 147 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 1: place that everybody involved kind of knew that this was 148 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:11,080 Speaker 1: all okay, no one was going to be filing frivolous, 149 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: frivolous lawsuits, and that you could use kind of direct 150 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:21,720 Speaker 1: references without having to be a copyright lawyer or retaining 151 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: a giant staff. It allowed a lot of very little 152 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: businesses to kind of spring up, making, Hey, here's my 153 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: cool adventure that I ran from my group. You can 154 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: buy it and play it with your group. Now, little 155 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: things like that, and I don't think it's for nothing. 156 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 1: That number one a huge thing. And this has become 157 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: as Silicon Valley is kind of turned more mercenary. This 158 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: has become less of a thing, but a massive thing 159 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: in the early history of Silicon Valley in the tech 160 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: industry was the open source movement. You know, was the 161 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: idea that a lot of people should be able to collaboratively, 162 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: work and iterate on things without having to worry about 163 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 1: who owns the basic idea right, you know. Lennox Is 164 00:08:56,880 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: is a great example of this, and the the ideology 165 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,719 Speaker 1: behind the open source movement was a big influence in 166 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: the open gaming license. I mean Dancy kind of admits 167 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: that himself. There's a quote where he says that, like, Yeah, 168 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: I think we need to embrace some of these ideas 169 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: at the heart of the open source movement, because I 170 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 1: think it will be a good business decision for Wizards 171 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: of the Coast. It will on the whole, even if 172 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:20,559 Speaker 1: we're not profiting directly from every sort of like thing 173 00:09:20,640 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: that people make off of this, the fact that it's 174 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: going to cause the hobby to explode will benefit us. 175 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: And I think he's been proven right in that because 176 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: D and D has gone from this thing that like 177 00:09:31,960 --> 00:09:34,719 Speaker 1: I got bullied for in high school too. There's these 178 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 1: massive podcast there's been TV shows that are just people 179 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 1: playing the game like it has reached this level. I 180 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 1: never really expected it would of like critical and and 181 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: mass acceptance, which has been really cool to see. It's 182 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:50,839 Speaker 1: been one of the things that I've been happiest about 183 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 1: watching occurs socially in the last couple of decades. Yeah, 184 00:09:55,160 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: you can't disagree that the business case wasn't super tight, right, Uh, 185 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: The way that the O g L got all of 186 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: the other game companies, many of which had their own 187 00:10:06,640 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: entirely different games in the early two thousands, they all 188 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: abandoned them and started making content for D and D UM, 189 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: and that just kind of carried forward a large swath 190 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,360 Speaker 1: of kind of the game industry, which is pretty cottage, right. 191 00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: There's a bunch of small players. There's not a lot 192 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: of large corporations in here. Um. You know, in fact, 193 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: Wizards is by far the largest, And so you've got 194 00:10:30,440 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: a bunch of small game companies that are are seeing 195 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,679 Speaker 1: this as a great opportunity to kind of play in 196 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:39,640 Speaker 1: the big pool, and a lot of them followed suit. 197 00:10:40,520 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: So obviously the recent we are here today is that 198 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,680 Speaker 1: a paul has been cast recently over what has up 199 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:50,200 Speaker 1: until now been kind of a lovely thing. Um, Wizards 200 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: of the Coast got a new CEO pretty recently, right, Um, 201 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,439 Speaker 1: Cynthia Williams is relatively new. Yeah, And and there is 202 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:02,280 Speaker 1: basically murmuring coming from the company that's like, we don't 203 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 1: think D and D is properly capitalized. We we believe 204 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: that there's we are leaving money on the table here. 205 00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:10,679 Speaker 1: And kind of in the wake of some of that 206 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: stuff coming out, they announced a series of changes to 207 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: the Open Gaming license and if you if you kind 208 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 1: of want to take it from here and explain because 209 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: I've i've i've I've read and listened to a number 210 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: of different folks. I'm saying like, well, it's not as 211 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: bad as people are are fearing, and some folks saying 212 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: like this would effectively kill a huge chunk of the 213 00:11:29,000 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: hobby and a bunch of the companies that have grown 214 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: up in the wake of the open Gaming license. And 215 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: I'm I'm interested in your take on what what Wizards 216 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,680 Speaker 1: is doing here and what actually kind of is at risk. 217 00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think you you you've in plued into 218 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: the start of this, which was in uh early December 219 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: of last year, Hasbro earnings call uh Cynthia basically came 220 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: out and said D and D was under monetized and 221 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 1: they had been spending the entire previous year really proliferating 222 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,880 Speaker 1: Magic the Gathering, which is their other giant brand, and 223 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: kind of really making a lot of money, like talks 224 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: of like it is a billion dollar brand. And UM, 225 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: as a result, you know, there was kind of some 226 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: murmurings and some rumblings going through December, UM talking about 227 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,560 Speaker 1: a new version of the O g L. Wizards themselves 228 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 1: came out on December twenty one, so just a few 229 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,439 Speaker 1: days before Christmas and said that a new O g 230 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 1: L was coming and that it had notes in it 231 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:32,920 Speaker 1: about royalty reporting and um, you know, mentioning that folks 232 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: won't need to pay until later um, and that um 233 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: you know, really this new license is only going to 234 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: be to make books and PDF. So they said this 235 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: on December twenty one. And the royalty part of that 236 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: is was really quite challenging because it said if you 237 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 1: make over seven thousand dollars a year, um, you might 238 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: have to pay a sizeable percentage of your your your 239 00:12:55,720 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: gross profit. Like and that's terrified, which when you're talking 240 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: about a business and and this is not the gaming 241 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: industry does not run on huge margins. Um. No, unless 242 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: you're like making Warhammer models that you're selling for a 243 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,960 Speaker 1: hundred and twenty dollars for a piece of plastic that's tied. Yeah, 244 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: the margins are pretty tight. Um. So saying like past 245 00:13:19,360 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: you know, seven k, your company with however many employees, 246 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 1: has to give a quarter like that, that'll sink people. Yeah. 247 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: I think a lot of companies, the larger ones, couldn't 248 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: sustain that, right, I mean I think saying your gross 249 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: over seven just basically means make sure you only make 250 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: seven hundred dollars that year. Um I I do think 251 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 1: that that is that is a real, real dangerous thing 252 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: to a lot of these businesses. Now, for a lot 253 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,320 Speaker 1: of the content creators, this is never gonna matter. But 254 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: I do believe that part of this was, you know, 255 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,880 Speaker 1: seeing gigantic multimillion dollar kickstarters happening and kind of going, 256 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: where's our Yeah, we want a piece of this? Um 257 00:13:59,120 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 1: And the answer to that is that, like you know, 258 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: and it's problematic just crediting the creation of D and 259 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: D solely to Gary Gygax, but like the people who 260 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,079 Speaker 1: came up with and play tested and made D and 261 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: D a thing, and then the people who iterated and 262 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,440 Speaker 1: changed and evolved it from you know, the original game 263 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: to a D and D um and the years of 264 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: thacco to two three point oh like like morally, outside 265 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: of like what I think is justifiable in corporate law 266 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: and stuff, Like, morally, I think it's fucked up to 267 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: say that like some company forever gets a piece of 268 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: that when what it is is like human beings coming 269 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: together to try to figure out the most efficient way 270 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: to run an engine for storytelling. UM, I don't know, 271 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: it's it's it's it's fucked up to me to think 272 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 1: about it this way. So they announced this alteration to 273 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: the Open Gaming License, and I'm gonna guess those were 274 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: some dark days at the office. So so yeah, you know, uh, 275 00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: most of us at PISO at that point in time, 276 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 1: we're kind of on vacation and we kind of just 277 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: filed it away and we're like, okay, well it's a 278 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: draft and they're just talking. So um, you know, we 279 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 1: get to back, you know, from our break and it's 280 00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:23,760 Speaker 1: the beginning of the year and this is now January 281 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: five is when a bombshell article drops on Gizmoto by 282 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: CODEGA and they really laid out kind of what was 283 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: in this proposed license, apparently having had portions of it 284 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 1: linked to them, and um, you know, it confirmed a 285 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: margin but maybe only for for kickstarters, which then got 286 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 1: confirmed by someone at Kickstarter on Twitter. Um. And it 287 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: also included a bit in there that there was a 288 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: clause that said watsy could listen to the coast, could 289 00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 1: use any of the content you create under the license 290 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:09,720 Speaker 1: for free, never having to make pay royalties to you, 291 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: never having to give you any credit. They could just 292 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: take your work, um, and and they phrased it in 293 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: such a way that it sounded like it was, you know, well, 294 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: just in case we make something similar, we don't want 295 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: to get sued. But yeah, and we're talking about just 296 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,800 Speaker 1: to clarify it for people were not talking about like 297 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: if you introduce mechanics, because again that that's not what 298 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: this is. Kind we're talking about. If you create characters, 299 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: if you create, if you build stories, they have a 300 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 1: right to utilize that story that you've made things that 301 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: are actually copyrightable, right, stories, ideas and expressions are copyrightable. 302 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:48,320 Speaker 1: Um uh, you know, but rules aren't. So that that 303 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: drops on the fifth and on the night the full 304 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: draft document leaks and you've got streamers and influencers reading 305 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 1: it live on YouTube, and this thing just starts to snowball. Um. 306 00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: And from the ninth forward, things start moving very quickly. Um. 307 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: On the tenth, a number of major kind of third 308 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: party publishers, these are folks who print with the O 309 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: jail um announced that they were not going to go 310 00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: with that, and one of the largest ones, you know, announced, yeah, 311 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: I'm not doing that at all. I'm going to create 312 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: my entire brand new game. I'm leaving all of this behind, 313 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: and the fervor on social media turned into basically a firestorm. 314 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:33,400 Speaker 1: Um it. It's really a sign of how how much 315 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: more how many people both love and play versions of 316 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: this game that there was so much media attention from 317 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: like major media organs like this. This was not just 318 00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: you know, those of us who are into gaming, um, 319 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: you know, freaking out over this change the Wizards of 320 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: the Coast has made. This was like, I mean, I 321 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: was seeing it everywhere. Very few things have like broken 322 00:17:56,480 --> 00:17:59,679 Speaker 1: as widely in my media in ecosystem as as this. 323 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: There was an article, there was a story about it 324 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: today on NPR UM so there was another one. There 325 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: was one other important aspect in the league, um that 326 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 1: I think is really important. One is that the new 327 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: o g L could be canceled at any time with 328 00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:20,360 Speaker 1: thirty days notice. And they were claiming that they were 329 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,639 Speaker 1: de authorizing the previous o g L, which up to 330 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: this point everyone kind of assumed was irrevocable. Right it had. 331 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: It has clauses in it that say, if we ever 332 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: put on a new version of this license, you can 333 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 1: ignore it and continue to use this one. Right, but 334 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: it uses this word in there that says you can 335 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: continue to use any authorized version of the license, never 336 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: minding that the contract doesn't mention how you might de 337 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:53,119 Speaker 1: authorize a license. UM. So there there this draft of 338 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: the O g L says that they're de authorizing the 339 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: previous version, which puts all of the work of the 340 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: past twenty years into doubt. And at this point in time, 341 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 1: the fans are revolting right there. There are a lot 342 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,639 Speaker 1: of folks canceling their subscriptions to D and D Beyond, 343 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: which is kind of there in house character generation tools 344 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: that you pay a monthly subscription for um. And things 345 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: really start spinning out of hand to the point where 346 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 1: D and D actually has to respond to it and 347 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: pulled back UM and kind of retreat from this and saying, hey, 348 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna answer your questions. What you saw was just 349 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: a draft um, you know, and UH that was never 350 00:19:32,040 --> 00:19:34,680 Speaker 1: supposed to leak UM. But it was at this point 351 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:39,480 Speaker 1: in time that we actually launched our own license. We 352 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: had been talking to some of the other publishers, and 353 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,919 Speaker 1: by that I mean we pizo UH to create a 354 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:48,119 Speaker 1: brand new safe harbor for folks to publish under. Now 355 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 1: it's a it's a it's not gonna be owned by us. 356 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: It's going to be owned by a law firm that 357 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 1: actually drafted the first o g L. But you started 358 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: to see this giant for happening, um where a lot 359 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:02,439 Speaker 1: of folks are just abandoning ship, And I mean, what 360 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: do you think this means? Because obviously Wizards has already 361 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,399 Speaker 1: announced a new version of the of the o g 362 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,159 Speaker 1: L beyond like the one that got leaked, and I 363 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: think are kind of in damage control mode. Do you 364 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 1: think this is something that like there is any way 365 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: for them to pull back from or do you think 366 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,119 Speaker 1: that kind of the inherent instability of the o g 367 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: L now that they're kind of making these claims at well, 368 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: we can actually change the deal anytime we want, has 369 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: that sort of irrevocably altered the ground. I think that 370 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: they've damaged a lot of people's trust in them, right. 371 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: I think over over the past few weeks, especially when 372 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: they went silent and then frankly the first retraction was 373 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,240 Speaker 1: really kind of awkward and filled with kind of like, well, 374 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:52,800 Speaker 1: we didn't lose, we won. This was great. Now we 375 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: learned how to make a better license. Right, they're clearly 376 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: stepping back, stepping back, stepping back, and their most recent 377 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: step back, which just happened, you know, on the eighteenth, 378 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 1: so you know, a week ago or so, basically said 379 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: that they were going to release the core of the 380 00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,160 Speaker 1: game to Creative Commons and their new license was going 381 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: to be irrevocable and last forever. But it still contains 382 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: a lot of kind of poison pills, things like we 383 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: are still the authorizing the first version of the license, 384 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: and we have this morality clause that says, if we 385 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: find your content offensive, we can just kill your license 386 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: without yea, which is fucked up because I mean, I 387 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 1: don't think I need to explain why that's fucked up. Um, 388 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: that that puts that puts a lot of the most 389 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: creative kind of projects to at risk like that. I god, 390 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 1: that's that's ugly. I mean, I don't think anybody in 391 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,840 Speaker 1: this industry wants to see any you know, deeply offensive, 392 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: problematic content. Um, but there's a lot of stuff that 393 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: is frankly a lot more marginal and explores, you know, 394 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: issues of the human condition that folks might want to 395 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: explore in a game. Who's to say that someone that 396 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 1: wizards might go, well, sorry, that's offensive to me. You 397 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 1: don't get to make it. Um. I don't think anybody 398 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 1: wants to invest their creativity and risk their business on 399 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: what someone they will never have met thinks of their work. Yeah. 400 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: The problem is not that, like I want as the 401 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:21,880 Speaker 1: most offensive role playing games I can get. The problem 402 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,080 Speaker 1: is like, well, who determines what offensive is? And it's 403 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: a bunch of lawyers in business minute Wizards of the Coast. 404 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: At least that's the worry, right, Like, not necessarily that 405 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 1: that's how it would work out, but you just you 406 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: get no guarantee, and this stuff, this stuff evolves over time, right, 407 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: you know what, what is fine today maybe problematic tomorrow. 408 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: We learned those things and we evolved from them and 409 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: we change. But I don't think anybody wants to have 410 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 1: kind of the this you know, acts hanging over our 411 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: head of like, well, sorry, that's now offensive, so we're 412 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: going to kill your entire license. Yeah, so where are we? 413 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: Where are we now? Like it looks like Piezo y'all 414 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: are moving forward with the O r C along with 415 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,680 Speaker 1: a number of other people. Can you give me any 416 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 1: of what that's going to look like? Because one of 417 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: the things that that does concern me is UM and 418 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,200 Speaker 1: this is a very selfish concern, but like I grew 419 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: very comfortable with you know, three point five, which is 420 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: essentially the machinery that underpins Pathfinder, and um, it's one 421 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:21,479 Speaker 1: of those things like if I didn't play again for 422 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: twenty years, I could probably sit down with the material 423 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:26,199 Speaker 1: in my head and run a campaign just because so 424 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: much of that stuff is burned into my brain. Are 425 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: we like, what is the mechanics kind of underlying the 426 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: O r C And how is it going to be 427 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: different from what we've we've gotten used to So I'll 428 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 1: say this, We're we're in the very early days, yes, 429 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: And what what's happening right now is we are you know, 430 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 1: in coordination with a number of other publishers working with 431 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,080 Speaker 1: a Zoro law and they are the people who wrote 432 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,719 Speaker 1: the original O g l UH and had you know, 433 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,480 Speaker 1: fully intended for it to be a perpetual license, and 434 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: we're working with them to create kind of a rules 435 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:03,439 Speaker 1: neutral license the entire game industry can use to share 436 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 1: work because there's there's like a lot of nuance that 437 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: was in the O g l that allowed different companies 438 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: to share creative work together, and a lot of companies 439 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 1: used it as kind of a bridging license. Even if 440 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: they weren't using Dungeons and Dragons at all, they would 441 00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: just use the license as a framework to kind of 442 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: exchange ideas. And that's what we want the ORC to be. 443 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: The ORC needs to be a license that allows everybody 444 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: in the game industry to open up their content and 445 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: share work with each other and iterate and expand and grow. 446 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:36,879 Speaker 1: That's our real goal, um. And ultimately we are not 447 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:38,840 Speaker 1: going to own it. No one's going to own it. 448 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: We're actually going to try and find it onprofit to 449 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 1: administer the license going forward so that we don't ever 450 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: have to worry about this again. Nobody wants to go 451 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: through what we've been going through for the past three weeks, 452 00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,239 Speaker 1: So that's kind of that's kind of one half of it. 453 00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: The other half is what happens to Pathfinder. UM. And obviously, 454 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,680 Speaker 1: you know, when it came to Pathfinder second Edition, we 455 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: rewrote the game from scratch and it is now fully 456 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: our game. It's something we own and we control, UM. 457 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:08,959 Speaker 1: So we feel pretty confident that we're just gonna keep 458 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: on rolling with with Pathfinder. And ultimately, you know, we 459 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: don't actually believe that the previous version of the O 460 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 1: g l even can be rescinded, So I guess we'll 461 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: see how that plays out. I can see this having 462 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 1: an overall positive outcome, just in that if we get 463 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: this new kind of thing that creators can use um 464 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 1: as a as a core point to branch off from 465 00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: when they are when they're making games that's actually under 466 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: solid legal footing that isn't kind of reliant upon the 467 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: whims of a publicly traded company, then in the long term, 468 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, that is in the long term, it's it's 469 00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 1: it's it's better for creators because it's more like the 470 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,359 Speaker 1: way things were for the first twenty years of the 471 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 1: O g l UM do you I mean, like, what 472 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,720 Speaker 1: do you see as kind of some pitfalls and sort 473 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: of trying to trying to make this this happened, trying 474 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: to move things in this kind of more productive direction. Well, 475 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: I think you can always you know, kind of fracture, 476 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: you know, balkanize the market to the point where where 477 00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: everybody has such a small slice event that you know, 478 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: no one can really get the kind of numbers they 479 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 1: need to succeed because you're you're right, it is it 480 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,280 Speaker 1: is a pretty small industry. The margin on. You know, 481 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 1: printed media isn't exactly great, but I think a lot 482 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: of these companies do have the numbers to survive. But 483 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: I think that right now, everybody's trying to figure out 484 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: how to replace parts of what has just been lost. Um. 485 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 1: Everybody's trying to kind of go in their different directions 486 00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,639 Speaker 1: right now, and some of that is going to be 487 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,239 Speaker 1: really good, because I think we're gonna get a lot 488 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 1: of really great games. Um, And I'm excited to see him. Um. 489 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,479 Speaker 1: But I do think that I think when the worries 490 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 1: just for the industry is that they kind of all 491 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: had one flag they were rallying around, and now everyone's 492 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: running in different directions and hoping that after all of 493 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: this shakes out, everybody has kind of enough gamers to 494 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: support a community. I think it's gonna work out. I 495 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: think that there's a number of standouts happening already. Um. 496 00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: You know, M C, d M and Cobald are obviously 497 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: racing to do things. There's a bunch of kind of 498 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,919 Speaker 1: known players in the industry, US, Cobalt, Chaos, I, UM, 499 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:32,680 Speaker 1: Green Ronan, all of them are pretty big. Company's position 500 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,359 Speaker 1: to kind of have good player bases with great games 501 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: and mechanics underneath them. So I I think the big 502 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: loser here is frankly to the coast. They you know, 503 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: up up until you know, the end of this year 504 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: or the end of last year, they were undisputedly the 505 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: largest game company in the entire table top role playing 506 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: game industry, and that's still true today. But there's a 507 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 1: lot of cracks in that armor, and it does make 508 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: me wonder how it's going to fracture out or time, 509 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: and how many of their fans, many of which never 510 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,640 Speaker 1: heard of Pathfinder, never heard of you know, these other 511 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: game companies call of Cthulo and stuff, are now suddenly 512 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: exploring these games, and you know, frankly, the wealth of 513 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 1: smaller Indian zine games that are out there. There's so 514 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,840 Speaker 1: much to play right now, and Watsy has just told 515 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: their fan base, hey, go check it out. It's interesting 516 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: because it it kind of speaks to something that I've 517 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: I've always loved and also found kind of sociologically fascinating 518 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,399 Speaker 1: about table top gaming, which is you just brought up 519 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,560 Speaker 1: call Off Cthulhu, which is a game that is I 520 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 1: don't believe is under the control of the original company 521 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 1: that it was made under. People have been playing versions 522 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: of Call Off Cthuloo for a very long time. Dungeons 523 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: and Dragons has gone through multiple owners. Shadow Run, which 524 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: I played a lot of as a kid, has gone 525 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: through multiple owners, and the rules sets change and the 526 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:59,600 Speaker 1: company that is profiting from the official licensed material changes. 527 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: But no matter what happens, even when those companies go uder, 528 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: the games keep going. And that's there's something I think 529 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 1: unique there that is, it's not the case even like, um, 530 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: you know, there's versions of it that happens in in 531 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: PC gaming. But there's also this thing that happens that 532 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: that a lot of gamers I know complain about, which 533 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,720 Speaker 1: is that like periodically should will get removed for whatever reason, 534 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: a company goes under, a game is not supported, and 535 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,080 Speaker 1: that game is just gone. That little piece of culture 536 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: has just gone. And it seems like so far, I'm 537 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: not gonna say in every case, because obviously there have 538 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 1: been games that have have you know, people stopped playing 539 00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: and stuff in the tabletop space, but it's there's this continuity, 540 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, even in the face of of changing of 541 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 1: the guards in terms of like what companies are successful, 542 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:53,240 Speaker 1: um of like people keep playing these the same games 543 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: and iterating them and changing them. And um, I don't know. 544 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: That's that's always one of the things I found most 545 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: inspiring about the way tabletop works. Yeah, I mean, I 546 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: do think the legacy of tabletop role playing games is 547 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: one of cooperation. It was there from the start, right, 548 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: you know, the moment Gary and is Uh and Dave 549 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: and folks you know, got together and started turning their 550 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: you know, miniatures war game and giving characters to them, 551 00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: and everyone started building a story together. That spark was 552 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: the start, and it's carried through in a million different 553 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: ways and a million different tables. And even if you know, 554 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 1: the companies go under or disappear, people with those books 555 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: are still playing those games. There's plenty of people still 556 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 1: playing a D and D first edition, right, you know, 557 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: they never left and they're fine with that, and and 558 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,200 Speaker 1: I salute them. Yeah, I think about and again, this 559 00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: is like one of the reasons this has such a 560 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: place in my heart. I I started playing A D 561 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,360 Speaker 1: and D. But you know, it was my friends and 562 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: I would play at a at cub Scout camp outs, 563 00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,240 Speaker 1: and we didn't have access to dice, so we we 564 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 1: had the rule books. We had like the Monsters Manual, 565 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: in the players guide, and we use those as jumping 566 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:04,960 Speaker 1: off points and we would bring like a bunch of 567 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 1: nickels and we would we would figure out way it's like, okay, 568 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,000 Speaker 1: for this action, you've got to get three heads out 569 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: of five flips or something like that, and that's a 570 00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: success in this And like so many people have stories 571 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: like that, have variants of that, because it really is 572 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 1: fundamentally what you need for any of these games, which 573 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: is what makes them so durable, is a group of 574 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: people to want to sit around a table and tell 575 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: a story together, which is rad. Yeah. I mean there's 576 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: nothing else like it right there, really isn't it. And 577 00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: that's why I think you're seeing so much fervor over 578 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:39,840 Speaker 1: this because for a lot of people, this is very 579 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: deeply personal gathering together with your friends and telling a 580 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 1: story together. That's something you and your friends built. And 581 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:50,400 Speaker 1: you know, uh, if you happen to find a way 582 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: to make some money off of it, great, that's that's 583 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: your creativity coming to life. And frankly, kind of having 584 00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: a big giant corporation come in and say, hey, where's 585 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: my cut is is not really very fun? No, uh, 586 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 1: And I my heart goes out to to to you 587 00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: and your colleagues over how stressful this last three or 588 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: four weeks has been, and I hope that we're past 589 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 1: the worst of it. Um. It certainly seems like some 590 00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: what's going to come out of this is going to 591 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: be pretty exciting. So I'm hopeful. Uh, And it sounds 592 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: like you're hopeful. Yeah, I think you know. Over the 593 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,360 Speaker 1: past couple of weeks there's been a lot of sleepless 594 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: nights and a lot of effency meetings. But frankly, I 595 00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: feel more excited and energized about the future of Pizo, 596 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: about the future of gaming, than I have in quite 597 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: a long time. So by Piso's games, pick up some 598 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: Pathfinder books, go to your go to your nearest game store, um, 599 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: and and pick one up or two or three, um, Jason, 600 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: anything else you want up plug at the end here, Uh. Yeah, 601 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,000 Speaker 1: you can learn more about Pizo in our games, so 602 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: that would be Pathfinder and star Finder. At Piso dot com, 603 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 1: we have a blog they're talking about the Orc and 604 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: we'll have undoubtedly have more to say about it here 605 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,840 Speaker 1: in the coming weeks. Uh. As for me, you can 606 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: find me on all the very social media platforms at Backslash, 607 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: Jason Bowman bu l M A h N. Thank you Jason, 608 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 1: both for sitting down for this interview and for all 609 00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:19,520 Speaker 1: of all of the many, many countless hours I have 610 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: spent playing games that you had a hand in making. Um, 611 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,040 Speaker 1: thank you, Robert. We'll have to get together and roll 612 00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,280 Speaker 1: some dice together soon. I would love that. All right, everybody, 613 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: that's a sode uh see you tomorrow. It could happen 614 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: here for that's Zone Media and more podcasts on cool 615 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com 616 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:42,480 Speaker 1: or check us out on the I Heart Radio app, 617 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 618 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,600 Speaker 1: find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at 619 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.