1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,600 Speaker 1: So we dug this one out of the archives because 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:07,560 Speaker 1: we thought it was a good fit. In in recent episode, 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:12,479 Speaker 1: we talked about faith healing and we mentioned the placebo effect, 4 00:00:12,480 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 1: and we kept talking about this placebo effect episode. We 5 00:00:15,040 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: did remember, we really did. And so the great opportunity 6 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: you were talking about the president to go back and 7 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: revisit this classic stuff they don't want you to know 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:28,320 Speaker 1: from yesteryear on the placebo effect. Enjoy from UFOs two, 9 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: Ghosts and government cover ups. History is riddled with unexplained events. 10 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: You can turn back now or learn the stuff they 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. Hey, everybody, welcome back to 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,360 Speaker 1: the show. My name is Matt and I am then 13 00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: and today we're gonna be talking about something that I've 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: been doing since I was Oh, we typ something my 15 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: mom taught me. Um, whenever I feel like I'm getting 16 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: sick and you know, we're in the cold season right now, 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 1: and uh, and I tend to get one nice bout 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: of sickness every year. And I have gotten a sickness 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: ever since I was a literal boy. And what my 20 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 1: mom would do is give me a giant glass of 21 00:01:11,920 --> 00:01:15,160 Speaker 1: orange juice and she would say, drink this it'll make 22 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,440 Speaker 1: you feel better. And so now even you know, I'm 23 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: thirty now, and this year I've been drinking orange juice 24 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,559 Speaker 1: like a madman because I feel like it's gonna stave 25 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: off the sickness that's coming on. I know it's coming. 26 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 1: But what I've learned over the course of the past 27 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: few months, so that this is the vitamin C isn't 28 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: actually doing anything to my immune system. Huh. That our 29 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: belief that vitamins really, yeah, aren't doing anything about that, Well, 30 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: they're they're probably still good for you. Even if even 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: if it's true that they're not doing anything. It's good 32 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: for my body, but it has no direct effect. Well, 33 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 1: let's take a more extreme example. Um, do you have asthma? 34 00:01:58,320 --> 00:02:00,080 Speaker 1: Do you know anyone who has asthma? I did have 35 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 1: asthma as a child. Oh yeah, I grew out of it. Huh. 36 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 1: I had wimpy white boy syndrome. What the heck is that? 37 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: And that's something that my wife has talked to me about. Uh, 38 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's something about our jeans. Man. I 39 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: got all these recessive genes in me, allegedly, you know, 40 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: a little little white boys, they tend to get a 41 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: little sick. I used to be hooked up to one 42 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,359 Speaker 1: of those machines a respirator at night. Really wow, Well 43 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: luckily this was you were not that person I was 44 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: talking about in a novel that I really enjoyed. It 45 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: was pretty creepy. Called it by Stephen King. Listeners, some 46 00:02:37,880 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: of you may have read it already, UM, and I'm 47 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: sure a lot of people have seen the miniseries. Um 48 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: read the book. I hate to be that guy, but 49 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: the book is crazy good and scary and freaky. Um. Anyhow, 50 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 1: in it, there is a character named Eddie cass Brack 51 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: or something like that. Eddie K will call Eddie is 52 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: a bit of a hypochondriac and he has a very 53 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:11,519 Speaker 1: overbearing mother and Eddie's mother is convinced that Eddie has asthma. 54 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: Eddie himself is also convinced that he has asthma. And 55 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 1: there's a spoiler alert here, And I feel like it's 56 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: not too not too um crappy of me to say this, 57 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: because it's been out for a while. You're not really 58 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: breaking the story, then, I'm not breaking Yeah, I'm not 59 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: breaking a huge plot point in the story. Um. One 60 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: thing that you find throughout the story is that Eddie 61 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: Kay doesn't have asthma, and the entire time that he 62 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: thought he did as a child, his pharmacist was trying 63 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: to play kate his mother by giving him just an 64 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 1: inhaler that had some stuff sprayed in it to give 65 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: it a medicinal crappy taste. And despite the fact that 66 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 1: this was pretty much foul tasting water, it cured Eddie's 67 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: imagined asthma every time. Ladies and gentlemen, what Matt and 68 00:04:07,880 --> 00:04:12,440 Speaker 1: I are talking about today is the placebo effect. And 69 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: a placebo effect is not just something that allows a 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: a purported medicine to fix a psychological or psycho somatic disease. 71 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: It can actually cure real conditions. And from what we've 72 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: been learning when we did an episode on this, apparently 73 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: the placebo effect is getting stronger. What do you think, Matt, Oh, 74 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: that is so crazy to me. So what we're really 75 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: talking about here is the power of the human brain 76 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,119 Speaker 1: and the mind and belief, the power of belief. And 77 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: this is where it gets a little weird for me, 78 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 1: because I have a hard time really grasping some of 79 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,679 Speaker 1: this stuff because it seems so pseudo scientific. It seems 80 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: almost almost spiritual in a way, um where it kind 81 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: of it bridges that mind body gap. Um. It's tough 82 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: for me to wrap my head around really, but it's fascinating. 83 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 1: My god, it's fascinating. Uh. What if I give you 84 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 1: a pill that will help you wrap your head around it? 85 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: See what that would probably work? I don't know, might 86 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: have to be from a doctor, at least at least 87 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: that's been shown to be true. All right, Well let's 88 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: start digging into this, ben Okay, So let's define it first. 89 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: The placebo effect according to rational Wiki, which we wanted 90 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: to check out here because we figured they would have 91 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: the least spiritualized definition, right, So they say, it's a 92 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 1: psycho somatic phenomenon in which symptoms of a disease or 93 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: condition lesson or even appear to be comtured completely from 94 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: the patient being merely exposed to a treatment. Now this 95 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: is important because it means symptoms might disappear, they might 96 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 1: feel better, they might actually be better, Um, whether or 97 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 1: not the treatment they were given had any real medicinal 98 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: effect or or active chemical or pharmacological agent in there. 99 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 1: That means just the idea that you are somehow being 100 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: treated can affect your your mind. Such that your mind 101 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 1: makes effects on your body. Imagine yourself. Well, it's so crazy. 102 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,880 Speaker 1: It just it's almost as though it's allowing it's allowing 103 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: you to unlock your your immune system that already exists 104 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: within you to fight off whatever the thing is that 105 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 1: you're trying to beat. Right, And we know that we 106 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: know that there are there are some measurable effects of 107 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,200 Speaker 1: the mental outlook on the human body, mind over matter, 108 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 1: if you will, right. Um, And it's strange because you 109 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 1: and I did an episode a while back that we 110 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 1: rereleased recently asking whether or not the placebo effect is 111 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: getting stronger. Now we dug into it with some more 112 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: details in this podcast, and we have some interesting things 113 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,239 Speaker 1: to tell to tell all you lovely guys and ladies 114 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: out there today. Um but before we get to that, 115 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: let's just say some weird, maybe disturbing, maybe cool facts 116 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:32,080 Speaker 1: about the placebo effect. Um. One, the packaging matters. Yeah, 117 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: the packaging on the pill matters. If it's flashy, it 118 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: looks like they spent a lot of money creating this package, 119 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: which means, hey, maybe they spend a lot of money 120 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: creating this pill or whatever this solution is that I'm taking. 121 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: That's crazy. Yeah, and it's it's an effect that also 122 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: transcends medicine. People will judge wine that seems to come 123 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: in a more expensive bottle as a better wine. Oh yeah, totally. Well, 124 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: and here's another weird thing. All right, older drugs, the 125 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 1: real drugs that actually have some kind of active agent 126 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: in them, don't seem to work as well anymore because 127 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 1: they're they're older. And I don't know this. This is 128 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: really where there are a lot of things you can 129 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 1: get into with this fact. But okay, so somebody's perception 130 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: of it as less effective, well, because that's been around 131 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: for a long time. Um as opposed to this new 132 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: drug that is essentially the same thing and possibly even 133 00:08:29,760 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 1: has the same active ingredient in it, will be strong 134 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: will have a stronger effect. And there's another thing. There's 135 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:41,320 Speaker 1: a huge debate between the medical communities, the respective little 136 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: islands in the archipelago of medicine. There's this huge debate 137 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:52,319 Speaker 1: about how alternative medicine quote unquote or homeopathy works. Uh. 138 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: Some people believe that it's entirely due to the placebo 139 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:58,800 Speaker 1: effect that if you really believe you're drinking you know, 140 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: inn gized water or you are having a your chakras aligned. 141 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 1: That the simple belief that a patient might have that 142 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: this is working is the engine behind the results. Now, 143 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,720 Speaker 1: we're not doing an episode right now on alternative medicine 144 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: or homeopathy or or any of that stuff. We will 145 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: do an episode on it if you would like to 146 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 1: hear it in the future. Um. Interesting other facts about 147 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: the placebo effect. It has been observed in both animals 148 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: and babies. And that's the weird thing about that, Ben, 149 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: is that it usually requires some kind of conditioning, which 150 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: basically just means someone telling you, hey, Ben, I'm giving 151 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: you this pill and it's going to help with your prasides. Yeah, 152 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: you have to know what is what the mechanism is. 153 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,599 Speaker 1: It's not learned, yes exactly, but but it's shown to 154 00:09:54,679 --> 00:09:57,720 Speaker 1: work in babies and animals. And how the heck do 155 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:01,559 Speaker 1: you translate for let's say, an orca whale that this 156 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: medicine that you're giving it is going to help with 157 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,880 Speaker 1: its fin M. I don't know. But oreca whales are 158 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: murderously intelligent, It's true, So they might they might, they'll 159 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: be able to pick it up. Maybe intelligent. Yeah right, Um, 160 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: So we said placebos are more expensive, work better. We 161 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 1: also know that if you if you have more of 162 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: a placebo, then you will feel like it's more effective. 163 00:10:30,360 --> 00:10:33,720 Speaker 1: You know, just like when you're taking real medicine, take 164 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: two pills, then it'll have an increased effect. Apparently that 165 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: even works when the medicine is fake. So if you 166 00:10:41,160 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: take two sugar pills or you know, blue Sky cough 167 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: medicine doses or whatever, then it will it will have 168 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: more of a dramatic placebo effect well. And it's also 169 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: shown that more the more dramatic the way you get 170 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: the medicine, the way it's given to you, the better 171 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 1: it's gonna work. So so if I just give you 172 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 1: a pill that you have to take, uh, it's gonna 173 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: have a certain effect. But if I roll up with 174 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: a syringe and give you an injection of just some sailine, 175 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,120 Speaker 1: then you know, that's that's that's an intensive thing that 176 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,560 Speaker 1: I've just given you a drug that requires to go 177 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:21,679 Speaker 1: directly into your bloodstream. It's gonna make you feel like 178 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: I'm doing more and uh, and it's probably gonna work better. 179 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,080 Speaker 1: So we could also extend that maybe to when the 180 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 1: doctor is talking with you. If the doctor sets you 181 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: down and says, you know, Matthew, this is an astonishing 182 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 1: new experimental treatment. This will cure you. Yeah, then you'll 183 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:44,680 Speaker 1: be more likely to feel the effects. Right. Yeah, Well, 184 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: coming from a place of authority, we've and you know, 185 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 1: we've explored this before been but that authoritative voice of 186 00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:55,560 Speaker 1: someone who seems at least seems to be uh an 187 00:11:55,640 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 1: expert in something, that information comes off much more strongly. 188 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: All you need is that subtitle at the bottom of 189 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: the screen, right expert on insert x here. Uh. Yeah. 190 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: We also know that um placebos can overpower real pharmacological effects, 191 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: so people, for instance, who were given drugs to induce 192 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: nausea didn't develop symptoms when they were told the treatment 193 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: would actually wait for it relieve nausea. That's what Yeah. Uh, 194 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: I just need I just need to sit down for 195 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 1: a second. Ben. I think I think my my anti 196 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: nausea medication is working while MAT's trying not to throw up. 197 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 1: We can we can skim over some of these because 198 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 1: we've got a lot of facts that people have to 199 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: get get too. But the primary thing we wanted to 200 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:55,720 Speaker 1: talk about is um that the placebo effect does appear 201 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 1: to be getting stronger over time, and some of this 202 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 1: is due to the idea that our expectations of medicine, 203 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: not just what medicine treats, but what medicine is have 204 00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: changed over time. So here's the question, man, is the 205 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: placebo effect becoming stronger or are we measuring things differently? 206 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,600 Speaker 1: What what gives? That's an excellent question. So this goes 207 00:13:21,679 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: to there are a couple things we're gonna be able 208 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: to talk about here. Um, but wow, man, the most 209 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: important one I'm gonna we're gonna leave for the end 210 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: because I think that's the most interesting. Um about how 211 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: about how how wide the measurements are? Well, we'll go 212 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: back to that, go back to that one. The most interesting. Um. So, 213 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: from two thousand two to two thousand and six, the 214 00:13:44,880 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: number of drugs that were acced after phase two clinical trials. 215 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: That that's the volunteer trials, the poor college student trials exactly. Yes, Well, 216 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: they increased because the drugs couldn't beat the placebos that 217 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: they were being compared to, which is why wild it's 218 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: wild man, Yeah, and they're there. Also, when we dug 219 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: into this, we found that there were a few big 220 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: factors that generated this appearance of an increase in the 221 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: placebo effect. Um. The first one, and one of the 222 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 1: big keys is powerful advertising. And it makes sense if 223 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: you think about it, right, because advertising affects the mind, 224 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 1: and the placebo effect is a product of mind and 225 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: man that again, it's that mind body connection that it's 226 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: so fascinating. We're gonna have to have some kind of 227 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: large series just on this bend, just on the mind 228 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: body connection. And you know what we need to do. 229 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 1: We need to get uh, we need to get the 230 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,640 Speaker 1: people from stuff with blow your mind. Oh yeah, that'd 231 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: be cool. That's what we should do. Maybe you and 232 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 1: Robert and Julie and I can all take a vision quest. 233 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: So the the other interesting thing here is that for 234 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 1: anyone who doesn't know the at least the Western pharmaceutical industry, 235 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:07,520 Speaker 1: which is the vast majority of the international pharmaceutical industry, 236 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: spends so much money on advertising. Now you would think 237 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: that people would spend so much more money on research 238 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: and design. How can we cure HIV? How can we 239 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 1: cure insert disease here? But how can we sell more 240 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: of my drug? Right? A lot of it is more. 241 00:15:25,920 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 1: How can we how can we get people to take 242 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:31,239 Speaker 1: more ZR tech? Yeah, and not only sell it monetarily, 243 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: but sell it to you that it works, that it's 244 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: a real thing that is functioning and effective. And this 245 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 1: goes to something else that I want to talk about. Now. 246 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: We're saving the big one for the end, but not. 247 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: Another reason for the increase in the perception of the 248 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:53,200 Speaker 1: placebo effect is that we have a much larger pool 249 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: of diseases now, and psychological disorders have begun to be 250 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: counted as some you know, so, oh you're depressed, Oh 251 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 1: you're you're you're you have O c D of some sort. 252 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: You have a d h D for instance, and and 253 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: and various things that would be qualified as psychological disorders 254 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:22,080 Speaker 1: rather than physical disorders. Sleep so well, sometimes you feel guilty. 255 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: You should take this. Yeh, look at this cute animation 256 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: that we've created for it. See pay no attention to 257 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: the fine prints about these terrible side effects and the 258 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: weird dreams. Oh yeah, may cause vivid hallucinations, strange dreams, 259 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: side urination, whatever that is. Uh yeah. Well, now, of 260 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,359 Speaker 1: course we're not saying this too in any way denigrade 261 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 1: people who do suffer from psychological disorders. And we're not 262 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: saying we're not saying that this that the medicine that 263 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: these people might be taking isn't really real. But what 264 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: we are saying is that the placebo effect is measure 265 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:05,199 Speaker 1: rble in these psychological disorders as well. And it is 266 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: no secret that psychological disorders are widely misdiagnosed. Oh yes, 267 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,560 Speaker 1: I've had many conversations with my wife, the school psychologist 268 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:19,919 Speaker 1: about misdiagnosis, especially in younger people. Right and and some 269 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: of us we you know, the behavior of a of 270 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: a young human being, it can seem a radic in 271 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: comparison to an older human being. Um different disorders manifest 272 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: at different times. There are a lot of factors at play. 273 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 1: It's not a cut and dry thing. So pharmaceutical companies 274 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: have spent a lot of money researching these diseases specifically, right, 275 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, And just another thing here been that 276 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 1: kind of it struck me as crazy, is that the 277 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: attitude of the way a doctor comes at your disease 278 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: and the way they basically whether or whether or not 279 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: they give you a negative or a positive diagnosis initially 280 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: is going to change, can change the way the outcome 281 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: of whatever it is that you're suffering from. Okay, so 282 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 1: just whether or not you have a positive or negative 283 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:21,200 Speaker 1: outlook on whatever it is that you're going through, can 284 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 1: change the way it affects you. Okay, So if a 285 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: doctor comes in and says, you know, I've got great news, 286 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: Mr Boland, your hammer toe will be completely solved by 287 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 1: this operation that we're doing, or not operation that's important 288 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: solved by this pill or even better disinjection, right versus 289 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 1: we've got terrible news, Mr Bolan. There's only one hope 290 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: for your hammer toe. It's this kind of amputate amputate 291 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: plus cebo. That one back. All right, So now it's 292 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: time for or the largest reason. Maybe we'll do a 293 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: drum roll and then that the honor is yours. So 294 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:14,399 Speaker 1: the most interesting reason that it seems the placebo effect 295 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: is increasing is because our our range, our scope is 296 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: getting much larger, and we're we're looking at many more 297 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: developing nations um and getting data from developing nations that 298 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: have access to drugs that they have never really had 299 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 1: access to before. And it's Western medicine. And there's there's 300 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: kind of this, uh, this thought that Western medicine is 301 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: very powerful and the belief in this medicine itself is 302 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: very strong in a lot of developing nations. So when 303 00:19:46,280 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: you give someone in a developing nation a let's say, 304 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: a handful of pills and you say this is going 305 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: to cure x for you. The strengthen that belief of 306 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 1: that medicine, even if it's a placebo, it's so great 307 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: that it seems to be almost larger there. So the expectancy, 308 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 1: which is key in in the effect of a placebo, 309 00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: means that placebos in developing or poor countries actually do 310 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,360 Speaker 1: better than they would in a developed country. Yeah, it's 311 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 1: pretty pretty weird, isn't it. Yes, And so that's what 312 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 1: you mean by scope, right, So since the I see 313 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: what you're saying, Since we're measuring from a much larger 314 00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: sample size, we're bringing up the average. And you know, 315 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 1: we'd be remiss if we didn't point it out. A 316 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,400 Speaker 1: lot of not a lot, but some of those conspiracy 317 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: theories about the way that pharmaceutical corporations handle experimental trials 318 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,719 Speaker 1: and developing countries have a grain of truth to them. 319 00:20:55,760 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, a few of them are 320 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,400 Speaker 1: absolutely true. Um, so there is is there's a wealth 321 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: of information that we could examine there in a in 322 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: a larger context, and there's a lot here that we're 323 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,119 Speaker 1: not touching on too much about the the prevalence of 324 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: organized medicine, the way it's organized. Does the A M 325 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: A do more harm than good? That's one that we 326 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,800 Speaker 1: here brought up a lot, and Uh, I don't know 327 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,199 Speaker 1: about you, man, but I'd love to examine those in 328 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: the future and hear what our listeners think about this. 329 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: But first, before we tell you how to contact us, 330 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,040 Speaker 1: let's hit one last thing, Ben. Okay, what's that. Let's 331 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 1: talk about the power of belief and it's limitations. Good. Yes, uh, 332 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,399 Speaker 1: sort of, the the future, the going forward of the 333 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,879 Speaker 1: placebo effect. Now we've explained a couple of reasons why, um, 334 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 1: the methodology or the sample size may have changed to 335 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,080 Speaker 1: affect the placebo. We also talked about the expectation of 336 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 1: medicine and disorder. So now it's time to talk about 337 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: how we can use this information you me, everybody listening 338 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: to UH to bring forth hopefully fruitful changes. Well, yeah, Ben, 339 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: because here's here's the here's the thing. In some cases, 340 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: even if you know you're taking a placebo effect, it 341 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: still seems to have an effect. That's that's pretty crazy, right, 342 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: So even if you're aware that you are just taking 343 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: a sugar pill, you can convince yourself that it's not 344 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: just a sugar pill and it may help you. Yes, 345 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: that's true. So what we're saying is that it may 346 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:46,440 Speaker 1: be possible to construct psychological strategies that hack a patient 347 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: uh to to exploit the placebo effect for positive results. 348 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: Now are better results rather. Now we know, of course 349 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,960 Speaker 1: that if someone is, for instance, horrifically burned, you can 350 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: aunt to give them a sugar pill and solve their problems. 351 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,719 Speaker 1: Not they're they're definitely limits to this. If there weren't, 352 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: then everybody would just live forever, right, But we we 353 00:23:11,280 --> 00:23:14,960 Speaker 1: do know that there is We are in a pioneering 354 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 1: age of exploration between the relationship between the human minds 355 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 1: and the human body, and the placebo effect is much 356 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: more likely to be the tip of an iceberg than 357 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:30,239 Speaker 1: it is the iceberg entire um. So although we know 358 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: why it's increasing, we do know that there's something to it. 359 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,040 Speaker 1: And it's reminded me of a lot of other sort 360 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 1: of placebo effect related things about the mind having power 361 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 1: over the body. But before I get on a rant, 362 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,160 Speaker 1: before we go too long, um, we've already built up 363 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: our case for pharmaceutical shenanigans in the developed world, which 364 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: we will return to. And we've already touched on some 365 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: of the conspiratorial things that people say about alternative medicine 366 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: versus western medicine, and we want to hear what you 367 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: think about it because all of our best ideas come 368 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: directly from you, the listener. And to prove that, let's 369 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: do some listener mail. Matt, what do you say? Absolutely, 370 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: let's get started with Kelly m She wrote to us 371 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: and said, Hey, guys, I'm really enjoying your podcast so far. 372 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: You sometimes seem concerned that the episode is running too long, 373 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: but in my opinion, the episodes are too short. Your 374 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: conversations are really engaging, and I want to hear more 375 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:43,480 Speaker 1: details and nuances about each topic. Keep up the good work, Kelly. Wow, 376 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 1: Well then I feel bad that we're reading that at 377 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: the end. Yeah, well, Kelly, thank you so much for writing, 378 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: and we really appreciate your input. And you know, sometimes 379 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,440 Speaker 1: the time constraints, we we just put them on our 380 00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,719 Speaker 1: ourselves because we kind of have to get in and 381 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,280 Speaker 1: out of here quickly. There's so many people using this, uh, 382 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:05,399 Speaker 1: this recording studio. But you know what, I think we 383 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,280 Speaker 1: can make time. We'll see what we can do um. 384 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,320 Speaker 1: In some cases they may be a little longer. In 385 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:12,359 Speaker 1: other cases, maybe they may be a little shorter, but 386 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 1: hopefully you'll enjoy them. Yeah. Hey, one interesting thing, Kelly 387 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,679 Speaker 1: that you might want to know is that all of 388 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: our podcasts are probably about an hour and a half. 389 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 1: We record them and they get heavily redacted. I'm so kidding. 390 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: I'm kidding. We we do. We are really excited to 391 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: have a longer UM show opportunity, and we're gonna see 392 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,359 Speaker 1: how how much we can fit into the audio episodes 393 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,600 Speaker 1: before the powers that be catch us and tear us 394 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: down and tear us takes us down. Yeah. Um, so 395 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: in the meantime, as we build this crazy house of 396 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 1: cards in a windy room, wish us luck with the 397 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,040 Speaker 1: next level. Let us know what you think. Do Please 398 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: find us on Facebook and become our friend on Facebook. 399 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: We would really appreciate It makes us much less likely 400 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: to be fired. And if you say, hey, Facebook is 401 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 1: for the birds whatever, that's dumb. While speaking of birds, 402 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 1: why not try Twitter. We are on there too. We 403 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: are conspiracy stuff at both of these and and that's 404 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: the end of this classic episode. 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