Speaker 1: This is me eat your podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,
Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to hunt podcast,
Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven
Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear
Speaker 1: for every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer, Listen up.
Speaker 1: This is honest pitelist from meat Eater, and I need
Speaker 1: your help. I'm going to be at the National Wild
Speaker 1: Turkey Federation's Annual Convention in Nashville, Tennessee this year, and
Speaker 1: I'm looking for the best Turkey storytellers alive. Now. I
Speaker 1: know we all have a good turkey story to tell,
Speaker 1: but I want you to think about who you know
Speaker 1: that tells an absolutely riveting turkey tale a person and
Speaker 1: that draws everyone in the room to their story. Bring
Speaker 1: them to me. I'm going to be at Ryman's Studios
Speaker 1: in the same building as a convention, set up with
Speaker 1: recording equipment and fill. The engineer is going to be
Speaker 1: there to make sure it sounds great. I have a
Speaker 1: goal of creating a national archive of hunters stories, and
Speaker 1: my first stop is the Southeast because I know you
Speaker 1: all down there. It can spend a good story. This
Speaker 1: is our oral history. I believe there's immense historical value
Speaker 1: to these stories and they should be preserved for future generations.
Speaker 1: Don't let your grandpa's stories die with him. Bring him
Speaker 1: to the convention and have him spin a yarn for me.
Speaker 1: The stories can be funny, sad, educational, exciting, but most importantly,
Speaker 1: they have to be engaging. This is where the good
Speaker 1: storyteller part comes in. All storytellers will get twenty minutes
Speaker 1: to tell their story, and I will be on hand
Speaker 1: to ask questions to fill in the blanks. We'll be
Speaker 1: recording at Ryman's studio see from nine am to four
Speaker 1: pm Thursday, Friday, and Saturday of the convention, which is
Speaker 1: February and eighteen. There will be posters directing you to
Speaker 1: our location to sign up for a time slot. Ahead
Speaker 1: of time, go to the meat eater dot com and
Speaker 1: search Turkey Story sign up. We will also have sign
Speaker 1: up available on location at the door of Ryman Studio See.
Speaker 1: Met Eater will use these stories in a forthcoming audio project,
Speaker 1: most likely in podcast format, so they will be available
Speaker 1: to everyone as long as the Internet is alive. So
Speaker 1: please come to Nashville for the National Wild Turkey Federation
Speaker 1: Convention and bring me the best Turkey storyteller you know.
Speaker 1: Are hunting legacy depends on it? Okay? Joined today by
Speaker 1: Brodie cal Spencer, Phil Crinn, and Dr Jonathan Riceman. Krin
Speaker 1: described some as a medical doctor, hunter author, and the
Speaker 1: man who wants to overturn the federal law against selling
Speaker 1: and eating long I want to overturn uh Yeloso National Park.
Speaker 1: Let's join forces. You know, well do mine. There's a
Speaker 1: couple of things I want to make it so the
Speaker 1: whole country is the blaze orange laws or orange hat
Speaker 1: crossing cart like Supreme Court ruling orange hat nothing more,
Speaker 1: nothing less for firearm, honey less, but not more. Then
Speaker 1: I want Yellowstone to be turned into a wilderness area
Speaker 1: and all the infrastructure removed, just the main highways going
Speaker 1: through it, and just a giant just to restore it
Speaker 1: to a pristine state. Think about that. I'd support it,
Speaker 1: And you wanna um make it that people can buy
Speaker 1: and sell long right, you can buy and sell it
Speaker 1: as a dog treat for dog food, but you cannot
Speaker 1: buy it or sell it or serve it in a
Speaker 1: restaurant for human food. I got one for you. The
Speaker 1: says nothing, do a long. I thought we'd put this
Speaker 1: question to rest, but this is a medical question for you.
Speaker 1: There is a phenomena. This is gonna get mighty scatological
Speaker 1: because there's a lot of stuff. So if you don't
Speaker 1: like scatological stuff, just move on. Do you guys remember
Speaker 1: when we explored the phenomenon known as deja who meaning Spencer,
Speaker 1: I wrote about this for our website and get a
Speaker 1: fact checker on, go ahead? What would you come up
Speaker 1: with on that? I don't even remember that. Uh that
Speaker 1: it's it's going to explain what it is. Deja poo
Speaker 1: would be where say you just got done hunting deer
Speaker 1: the day before and you were successfuldn't do that one,
Speaker 1: but go ahead, now you go ahead and laid out
Speaker 1: then rabbit, Okay, rabbit is the worst offender. I'm just
Speaker 1: going to quickly define scatological relating to or characterized by
Speaker 1: an interest in ex from the next creation. Started really
Speaker 1: wearing me out. It's starting to wear me out. But
Speaker 1: you know how stuff like leads. Okay, Spencer, they defined
Speaker 1: deja pop. I'll read you the claim for how I
Speaker 1: This is how I lay out fact checkers on our
Speaker 1: website in this article is called fact checker. Does gutting
Speaker 1: dear make your farts smell like guts? That lays it
Speaker 1: right out, Okay, And here's the claim. After field dressing
Speaker 1: a kill, your gas will start to smell like animal
Speaker 1: organs within twenty four hours. This observation has been made
Speaker 1: by those who pursued deer ducks, pheasants, and other game.
Speaker 1: So in this hypothetical, you were successful rabbit hunting on say,
Speaker 1: Saturday morning, and then Saturday evening you have a bowl
Speaker 1: movement and you notice that your bomb movement smells like
Speaker 1: the rabbit guts, and that's what you call deja puh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So Dr Riceman, you'll come into this in a minute.
Speaker 1: So we had explored this and I think someone want
Speaker 1: to saying the reason they call it dejacu? Who is
Speaker 1: he thinking? He was? Some person was explaining and some
Speaker 1: medical professional was explaining that it's a trick of the mind.
Speaker 1: It's a trick of the brain. Um. I was just
Speaker 1: on Rogan's podcast and he and I were doing some
Speaker 1: hunting afterwards, and he brought it up to me because
Speaker 1: he knew a person who was a bear guide and
Speaker 1: their daughter was exposed to so much bear skinning and
Speaker 1: bear gutting, and she was having such bad gas that
Speaker 1: smelled so terribly of bear guts that she had to
Speaker 1: go home from school. Wow, had to call her mom
Speaker 1: to come get her. I told, I told, I told Joe.
Speaker 1: I'm like, it's not I said, we we kind of
Speaker 1: explored this. I don't remember the details, but it's not.
Speaker 1: It's a trick of the brain. And I said, alternately,
Speaker 1: if it's not a trick of the brain, what it
Speaker 1: means is somehow those microbes have gone in your nose,
Speaker 1: gotten into your gut, proliferated in your gut, and it
Speaker 1: inhabited your gut and then passed out as flatulence, which
Speaker 1: just like seemed far fetched to me. Who sent her home?
Speaker 1: That's what I want to know. She opted to go home,
Speaker 1: She called, here's the gut, here's the takeaway I got
Speaker 1: from from the physician. I talked to you about this phenomenon.
Speaker 1: And then then as Dr Riceman's turned but they final
Speaker 1: because this is this is probably right up his alley.
Speaker 1: They said, there were potentially two things that are happening here.
Speaker 1: One is that the nose hairs are tramping some like
Speaker 1: microparticles that were related to what you were doing. And
Speaker 1: then when you have like a strong smell later, you're
Speaker 1: you're smelling that again. So it's like you're physically smelling
Speaker 1: that same thing you smelled earlier. It's one possible explanation.
Speaker 1: The other explanation is that, uh, your old factory receptor
Speaker 1: cells are strongly tied to your memory, and that smells
Speaker 1: are like the strongest thing that you can tie to
Speaker 1: your brain when it comes to recalling something, and that
Speaker 1: your mind is just playing a trick on you. And
Speaker 1: then when you smell something bad down the line, it
Speaker 1: makes me makes you think of that thing that you
Speaker 1: just smelled earlier the same way. That's the conclusion that
Speaker 1: we can do before. But this was not satisfactory to
Speaker 1: my interlockertor. And this this physician said, the same thing happens,
Speaker 1: like if you smell cookies and it makes you think
Speaker 1: of being at Grandma's house or something like that. Memory
Speaker 1: is strongly tied to smells. But what they did rule
Speaker 1: out it is absolutely not that you're inhaling um a
Speaker 1: bunch of fumes that get into your gut, that come
Speaker 1: out your brand. They're breathing your gut. Yeah, that's not.
Speaker 1: That's not the case. Dr Roisman Scott aloge Go was
Speaker 1: definitely up my alley and my my daily job. Basically,
Speaker 1: I would say, I guess a few questions. You know,
Speaker 1: whenever we try to show causality or do a medical study,
Speaker 1: we always think of confounders, things that are confusing it
Speaker 1: and leading you astray from I already like this answer,
Speaker 1: So one did the I guess My question is did
Speaker 1: the person eat any of that meat between gutting it?
Speaker 1: And we'll eat the gut taking a dump, or eat
Speaker 1: the guts or the meat. I guess. I'm not positive
Speaker 1: that would then change the smell of their stool, but
Speaker 1: that could be something. Whether or not they ate it
Speaker 1: is a question if not my hands. And I want
Speaker 1: to give you another ex like the hypothetical that happens
Speaker 1: to me if I were to be um like bow
Speaker 1: fishing or duck hunting, and I'm wading through some like
Speaker 1: really swampy, nasty water um that has like some deep
Speaker 1: mud into that swamp smell is the one that I
Speaker 1: recall worst, like way worse than a gut pile or
Speaker 1: something like that. But it's that swampy water smell, So
Speaker 1: I'm not eating that. What's that got to do with parts,
Speaker 1: because that's that's what I smell. La, I'm smelling the swamp.
Speaker 1: That word he flagellates that swamp essence back again. This
Speaker 1: is a phenomenon I've never experienced. But I can't just
Speaker 1: shot a rabbit. He got some pellets and the guts
Speaker 1: smelled real bad. No problem. Do you know what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about? When you're waiting, like through some cat tails
Speaker 1: in a swamp, and that's that's what I smell the
Speaker 1: strongest later But then later on I don't really smell
Speaker 1: that stuff. That's because it's not traumatic to you. This
Speaker 1: is this is a symptom of a post traumatic stress.
Speaker 1: I want to some context. It's not always about eating it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to rule out he's saying confounding factors. Eating
Speaker 1: is not a factor. Right. So another thing, I would
Speaker 1: wonder if the flatus or the stool always smelled that bad.
Speaker 1: What was that word flatus? Oh that's like fart stuff
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, you never already today Like wow, this
Speaker 1: flatus smells like the animal I got it earlier. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I guess I wondered that the plate is always
Speaker 1: smell that way and just because you had this stinky
Speaker 1: experience in the recent past, you're now associating it with it.
Speaker 1: The other thing is I seriously doubt you're inhaling microbes
Speaker 1: that are then populating your gut. Otherwise you could do
Speaker 1: like a fecal medical transplant just by inhaling stool, and
Speaker 1: that has not been demonstrated yet, but maybe more research
Speaker 1: is needed there. So you're buying, you're weighing in on
Speaker 1: the memory thing. I think it maybe I guess if
Speaker 1: I had to put my money down to be a
Speaker 1: trick of the memory that it maybe it smelled that
Speaker 1: way or similar, uh, and it just reminds you of
Speaker 1: that recent smell your head. Or the person who's hunting
Speaker 1: also eats a lot of maybe wild game or or
Speaker 1: oh full or something that makes their stool smell in
Speaker 1: that particular way. Or I can't remember the last time
Speaker 1: I gut it an animal and then had like a
Speaker 1: full change of clothes ready with, you know, within a
Speaker 1: period between them in my next constitutional movement, you know.
Speaker 1: So I think there's all sorts of traces of smell.
Speaker 1: If my dogs tell me anything on my pants, on
Speaker 1: my hands, on my jacket, nose hairs, do but what
Speaker 1: does that have to do with I think that would
Speaker 1: be like somebody taking the poop and they are smelling,
Speaker 1: you know, parts of the animal gut and stuff like that,
Speaker 1: but it's remnants on their boots, remnants on their pant cuffs,
Speaker 1: or reminance on there be there whether they went and
Speaker 1: defecated or not. Yes, it would, it would, but they're
Speaker 1: picking up on that extra scent and and saying like,
Speaker 1: yes exactly. And when you go to the bathroom you
Speaker 1: kind of ruffle your clothes in some way. Maybe that
Speaker 1: releases some more of it. That's not it, dude. What
Speaker 1: it is is this. It's it's a trick of the memory.
Speaker 1: Here's the way to test it. Get a bunch of
Speaker 1: season to rabbit hunters old rap okay, Get a bunch
Speaker 1: of seasoned rabbit hunters who have rabbit hunted in forever.
Speaker 1: Not hard to do, right. You get some guys who
Speaker 1: haven't been rabbit hunt for five years, ten years, Put
Speaker 1: them with a person who's prone to deja pu, okay,
Speaker 1: have him. You pay attention to this because this is
Speaker 1: a little do you do you publish much in academic
Speaker 1: not as much these days. More you're more and well
Speaker 1: if you get back into academic check this out. Get
Speaker 1: all these people and you get a rabbit hunter. You
Speaker 1: haven't got a whole bunch of rabbits. Okay. He then
Speaker 1: changes his clothes, takes a shower, goes into the room
Speaker 1: full of old rabbit hunters who haven't rabbit hunted. What's
Speaker 1: the verb for for? What's the verb for flat weights? Um?
Speaker 1: To be honest, I'm not sure if there is one
Speaker 1: produced latest Perhaps he produces this individual produces flate is
Speaker 1: He's like, God smells like rabbits, right, Well, they're in
Speaker 1: an air tight room warm. Do the other people think
Speaker 1: it smells like rabbit guts? That's how you test this.
Speaker 1: So when when we publish this article, the Facebook comments
Speaker 1: were littered with mostly dudes being like, my wife claims
Speaker 1: that my farts are the worst after a pheasant hunt,
Speaker 1: which I think is is awesome. I want to tell
Speaker 1: you how I know that. It's it's in your memory,
Speaker 1: It's in your head. I wrote this article in November.
Speaker 1: This had never happened to me before a few days later,
Speaker 1: I killed the deer, and that night it happened to
Speaker 1: me because I had been thinking about this and he
Speaker 1: was on my mind the same way. When I was
Speaker 1: in college, I had never heard of sleep paralysis, didn't
Speaker 1: know what it will. And then we had a whole
Speaker 1: class one day about sleep paralysis, and it happened to
Speaker 1: me like two months later. And I think it was
Speaker 1: just like I have a weak mind when it came
Speaker 1: to that kind of thing. Uh. And then I was
Speaker 1: exposed to it and it happened. Yeah, Like if you
Speaker 1: told me right now you had testicular cancer, heaven forbid,
Speaker 1: my nut would start hurting, like I had that same
Speaker 1: type of problem. That's specific. Oh yeah, if someone tells
Speaker 1: you they have a problem, instantly I get an ache there.
Speaker 1: It's either I'm like very self centered or very very
Speaker 1: what's it called, uh, empathetic? Empathetic, incredibly empathetic or or
Speaker 1: uh or something worse. Okay, I'm gonna we got a
Speaker 1: bunch more medical questions. This one. I don't want to
Speaker 1: let me do it kind of quick. A lot of
Speaker 1: people backed up Krin on cilium fiber. Krinn was saying
Speaker 1: as a backwoods technique, staying in scatological as a backwards technique.
Speaker 1: She eats cilium fiber, which is meta mucil. It's in
Speaker 1: meta mucil. But this is the just the pure ingredient,
Speaker 1: single ingredient itself. Yeah. It uh forms a gel inside
Speaker 1: your intestines. I mean in a way because it absorbs
Speaker 1: a lot of water. Yeah. Yeah, helps keep things clean.
Speaker 1: As Krim mentioned, also grabs cholesterol on its way out.
Speaker 1: This guy says it's more than safe for your listeners
Speaker 1: to take it while they're out in the woods to
Speaker 1: have a cleaner stool or a white bliss pooh. Where
Speaker 1: do you buy? What do you buying? That? Definitely um, well,
Speaker 1: Meta mucil or any other cilium containing product is or
Speaker 1: any fiber supplement is really good at keeping your regular
Speaker 1: getting rid of cholesterol and other things, slowing the absorption
Speaker 1: of sugars and other things. I've thought said recently, if
Speaker 1: fiber was a new pharmaceutical drug be held as like
Speaker 1: a medical miracle, like the effects on metaball like health
Speaker 1: CARDIVASCAR health are pretty astounding. They get a Nobel Prize too.
Speaker 1: Maybe those health benefits plus you don't you have a
Speaker 1: white bliss poop so many I like, I put this
Speaker 1: to bed. This frozen we're talking about how to be
Speaker 1: responsible out on the ice or responsible in the wintertime.
Speaker 1: Or whatever when you're when you need to go number
Speaker 1: two out in the woods or out on the ice,
Speaker 1: and so many microbiole just rode in to contest the
Speaker 1: idea that somehow the cold temperatures will render it safe.
Speaker 1: That I can't put it the rest and I have
Speaker 1: to bring it up once again. People like, if you're
Speaker 1: trying to save back here, you make it cold. They're
Speaker 1: like heat kills it. There's no it's like, that's how
Speaker 1: you preserve it is by freezing it. Don't make the
Speaker 1: mistake of thinking that if you vaulted in the ice
Speaker 1: and somehow will later be safe for users of the
Speaker 1: water in the summertime. We got letters from a septic processor,
Speaker 1: multiple microbiologist. Everybody's fired up about that. I'm glad we
Speaker 1: got that cleared up because I didn't like your vaulting idea.
Speaker 1: One one bit oh, one last thing to add um
Speaker 1: before we get into the before we get into better stuff.
Speaker 1: I was I was laying out for my kid, my
Speaker 1: argument about how my growing unease and skepticism of of
Speaker 1: these fall turkey seasons where you can just rape and
Speaker 1: pillage for turkeys in the fall, and how I think
Speaker 1: it's shortsighted and taking the turkey for granted. I told
Speaker 1: my kid, I was saying to him my argument that
Speaker 1: I said to him, if God didn't want your hunting
Speaker 1: turkeys in the spring, he wouldn't have made spring. And
Speaker 1: he said, why do you make fall? A great question? Sharp?
Speaker 1: So I had stuff saying that. All right, Dr Riceman,
Speaker 1: where do we begin? Man? Um, where do we begin?
Speaker 1: Let's talk talk about your background a little bit. Sure,
Speaker 1: I grew up in northern New Jersey and suburbs of
Speaker 1: New York City. Um, normal suburban um upbringing, had no
Speaker 1: way what makes it normal? Well? What is normal? I guess? Um?
Speaker 1: I guess typical maybe typical suburban New Jersey upbringing. Um
Speaker 1: I guess by normal, I mean uh, specifically like related
Speaker 1: to outdoors and hunting and fishing. I had no exposure
Speaker 1: as a child to any of that. Never ate any
Speaker 1: kind of wild game, probably till my twenties. Didn't know
Speaker 1: anyone who hunted, didn't know anyone. No one in my
Speaker 1: family even fished. I never went fishing as a kid, Like,
Speaker 1: had zero exposure to it. Didn't know anyone who owned
Speaker 1: a bow or a gun, never even thought about it.
Speaker 1: I mean meat meat came from the store, you know,
Speaker 1: cuts and meat. I mean, I knew they came from animals.
Speaker 1: I just never thought more about it. Wasn't interested in
Speaker 1: it from either a being horrified perspective or interested I
Speaker 1: want to learn more perspective. It just was not It
Speaker 1: just wasn't on my radar. I mean, I guess if
Speaker 1: you you know, if you don't know anyone who does it,
Speaker 1: you never I never read read about it. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess I didn't even really read like adventure books
Speaker 1: about the Old West, as many maybe young boys do,
Speaker 1: so maybe maybe that would have piqued my interest. I
Speaker 1: guess I just wasn't exposed to it in any way.
Speaker 1: So it's a complete blank in my knowledge and experience.
Speaker 1: What what happened to uh to burst the bubble? Um? Well,
Speaker 1: I was an undergrad in New York University, and I
Speaker 1: don't even know how. I just got interested in wilderness survival. Um.
Speaker 1: I took a wild edible plants tour of Central Park
Speaker 1: in Manhattan and kind of learned to identify my first
Speaker 1: few plants, um, first few trees and first few edible
Speaker 1: We have found some raspberries, things like that Central Park
Speaker 1: in Central Park yeah, what else did you find? Like ginko?
Speaker 1: Beloba trees are kind of all over Manhattan. They're supposed
Speaker 1: to be sort of the non fruit bearing um sex,
Speaker 1: but I guess a lot of them end up bearing
Speaker 1: tons of these stinky fruits that have an edible nut inside.
Speaker 1: You often see um, actually elderly Chinese people gathering them
Speaker 1: in New York, and many times I've gone up to
Speaker 1: them and been like, what, how do you process it?
Speaker 1: What do you do with it? And they didn't speak
Speaker 1: any English, so I didn't learn anything that way. What's
Speaker 1: your exposure to that? I've often heard that every since,
Speaker 1: like like the Chinese women will gather the gek. I
Speaker 1: actually didn't know that. The My exposure to ginko was
Speaker 1: probably in high school. Um, just going to health food
Speaker 1: stores and seeing that in the shape of the leaf
Speaker 1: on a on a box of tea and starting to buy,
Speaker 1: like the teas are supposed to be kind of calming effects, supposedly,
Speaker 1: and then looking up around me and seeing the leaf
Speaker 1: like on falling from trees in New York, and so
Speaker 1: I really exactly and then I was like, I wonder
Speaker 1: if this is the same exact thing or something slightly different.
Speaker 1: And I do remember seeing these little kind of fresh
Speaker 1: you know, it's like a I don't know, it's kind
Speaker 1: of like an uh an acorn hazel nut size, kind
Speaker 1: of green outer shelf. It's fresh. And I just remember
Speaker 1: seeing those and wondering, like if I can pick them
Speaker 1: up and eat them like a squirrel, you know, but
Speaker 1: maybe it's nasty because it's New York City, so I
Speaker 1: shouldn't do that. So what would you define as elderly?
Speaker 1: Elderly Chinese woman? How far behind his crew? So she's
Speaker 1: got we'll check back in with your in forty years.
Speaker 1: You're gonna get a tax message. Are you picking? Well? Now,
Speaker 1: I might start. I might start real early the next
Speaker 1: time I go back to New York City. Let's see.
Speaker 1: So that did it? You guys like Lamb's Quarter and
Speaker 1: Lambs Quarters. We didn't see the station. We saw poor
Speaker 1: Man's Pepper. Um, we did see Lamb's Quarters. Um what
Speaker 1: we saw Kentucky coffee tree. I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: the I guess all those trees were planted by a
Speaker 1: human at some point. Um probably the poor Man's Pepper,
Speaker 1: the Lamb's Corridor, the raspberries were not and just sort
Speaker 1: of naturally ended up there, but I guess either way,
Speaker 1: it was sort of being able to identify a tree
Speaker 1: and then later seeing that tree again, especially Ginko below
Speaker 1: was kind of all over Manhattan. UM, that sort of
Speaker 1: just got me interested and just lets I wanted to
Speaker 1: learn everything about while that will funge I wanted to.
Speaker 1: I hadn't gotten into hunting yet, but it was sort
Speaker 1: of getting into you know, tracking and trapping and making
Speaker 1: everything from stone tools to wooden longbows, high tanning. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Living in Manhattan. Actually my dorm room I lived right
Speaker 1: off four Street, UM near Union Square Park, and like
Speaker 1: my dorman literally literally started having like you know, half
Speaker 1: made baskets and like bark shavings. It was a mess
Speaker 1: and some like dried animal hides. UM. My roommate was
Speaker 1: not happy. Was it like, was it motivated when you
Speaker 1: got into early now, I was motivated by a reverence
Speaker 1: um for like Native American skills. Was motivated by that
Speaker 1: you were going to go live in the woods. I
Speaker 1: think both of those were important. There's definitely that like
Speaker 1: romantic romanticization of the past and pre contact Native Americans
Speaker 1: and how they lived you know, quote unquote in harmony
Speaker 1: with nature and when you read a lot of that literature,
Speaker 1: you end up getting sort of infected with that romanticization.
Speaker 1: And I definitely thought about going off, maybe not living
Speaker 1: in the wild, but certainly exploring it, understanding it, learning
Speaker 1: how to you know, to identify all the wild critters
Speaker 1: in it, how to live off at least knowing how
Speaker 1: to live off of it was a big interest. And
Speaker 1: you got into braintand yes, Braintanding started picking up road kill.
Speaker 1: To my parents dismay, and how was that going? Um?
Speaker 1: I loved it. I mean, you know in suburbia is
Speaker 1: like great for roadkill, I mean the deer, hasta fed
Speaker 1: deer or littering the streets basically, And uh, I started
Speaker 1: picking up squirrels and making you know, raw hide songs
Speaker 1: out of their skins, and braintanding the deer, highest raccoons,
Speaker 1: not the underwear, just like long leather strips. Yeah, long
Speaker 1: leather strip I got excited for a minute. I suppose
Speaker 1: you could. But it was turning a tidy profit out
Speaker 1: of the dorm room and we could put some of
Speaker 1: that on the website. So were you learning how did
Speaker 1: you learn how to braintand like actually like using the Yeah, um,
Speaker 1: sometimes just from the animal I picked up, sometimes buying separately. Um,
Speaker 1: whatever brain was on sale at some ethnic market or
Speaker 1: grocery store. Um. All this before we went to med school. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this is all before I went to med. So I
Speaker 1: came to med school sort of with this kind of
Speaker 1: understanding of um, you know, of skin from the high
Speaker 1: tanner's perspective, and sort of just a deep interest in
Speaker 1: early humanity, how they lived, how they made everything, where
Speaker 1: they got their materials from, and how they used different
Speaker 1: parts of the animals body to make tools and other things.
Speaker 1: And were you eating a lot of wild game at
Speaker 1: that point? I was not. I did. I did have
Speaker 1: a few instances where some as you know, my friends
Speaker 1: and family knew of my strange interest in road killing.
Speaker 1: More than once someone called me about a deer that
Speaker 1: was not dead yet. Um by the time both times,
Speaker 1: by the time I got there, it was dead, and
Speaker 1: so I butchered them and ate them. What was the
Speaker 1: variety of road kill you were picking up? Squirrels, deer?
Speaker 1: Did you like, have any cats, dogs, coyotes, anything like that. No,
Speaker 1: raccoon's possums, although I guess I wasn't impressed with the first,
Speaker 1: so I didn't end up keeping it. But I would
Speaker 1: say raccoon, squirrels and white tailed deer were the big ones.
Speaker 1: And where were you in this tanning? Like in your
Speaker 1: dorm room? So a little bit in my parents garage
Speaker 1: and my parents backyard. And after a while they kind
Speaker 1: of stopped asking me what is that smell? Because they
Speaker 1: really didn't like hearing the answer. Um, But yeah, I had,
Speaker 1: you know, like my father came home from work one day,
Speaker 1: I was scraping the hair off squirrel hide in the garage,
Speaker 1: or you know, they'd go into the backyard and to
Speaker 1: be a deer hide and laced into a frame back there.
Speaker 1: Stuff like that. Yeah, I mean I loved it and
Speaker 1: still love it. I don't have as much time to
Speaker 1: do it, but it opened my eyes in many different ways.
Speaker 1: How familiar you were familiar as a youngster with kosher law? Correct,
Speaker 1: though I didn't follow it, But you're familiar with it,
Speaker 1: vaguely familiar with it. Now I know a bit more
Speaker 1: about you know a bit more about it. Are you
Speaker 1: familiar with I don't know if you'd call him a
Speaker 1: sect or what the hell you'd call the habbad? What
Speaker 1: would you call the habbad? Yeah? I mean it's one
Speaker 1: of the I don't know if sect is the word.
Speaker 1: It's one of the kinds of ultra Orthodox or it's like,
Speaker 1: it's kind of an organization of um that ultra Orthodox
Speaker 1: that tries to proselytize two Jews that are less religious,
Speaker 1: never to non Jews. Jews don't proselytize the non Jews. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I was tagging along with a Jew who is
Speaker 1: being proselytized to by the Hubbad and I got so
Speaker 1: since I was there anyways, I asked a question, and
Speaker 1: I said, how would it? How would you go about?
Speaker 1: I'd like you to back this person up or elaborate
Speaker 1: on this. I said, how would someone who's keeping kosher
Speaker 1: how would they be able to consume wild game? He said,
Speaker 1: you'd have to catch it in the net and then
Speaker 1: bring it unharmed to a kosher slaughter. Is that is
Speaker 1: that your understanding? Can you explain why that is so? Um?
Speaker 1: There's many many rules in kash rout, which is kind
Speaker 1: of the collection of rules that we think of as
Speaker 1: you know, to produce kosher food. UM. Many many rules,
Speaker 1: like mind boggling number of rules that you have to follow.
Speaker 1: But one of the big ones is that all blood
Speaker 1: must be drained out of the animal. Um. So there's
Speaker 1: some rules in Kosher where let's say, you don't eat
Speaker 1: pork because it's quote unquote dirty, but you don't eat
Speaker 1: blood because it's so holy it should be left for God.
Speaker 1: And some say that's left. Yeah. So it's sort of
Speaker 1: the spirit, the animating force of the animal or the
Speaker 1: human is in the blood. And so actually, you know,
Speaker 1: in before I'm not sure what year, but many centuries
Speaker 1: ago millennia, go Jews ritually slaughtered animals and the big
Speaker 1: temples in Jerusalem. People describe it as look running with
Speaker 1: volumes of blood. Um. So some think it might be
Speaker 1: left over, even though we don't ritually slaughter in that
Speaker 1: way anymore. Um something maybe that blood letting or getting
Speaker 1: all the blood out is part of the it's sort
Speaker 1: of left over from that ancient tradition of of slaughtering
Speaker 1: and it was offering to God. I gotta interrupt because
Speaker 1: I wish we had that Remember that picture someone sent
Speaker 1: to score in We're when we were on the when
Speaker 1: talk about Samaritans, bunch, what were they in? What the
Speaker 1: hell country were they in? Think where they had that
Speaker 1: place where you hang all the lambs and kill them.
Speaker 1: And they had those special troughs to collect all the
Speaker 1: blood and diverted into like a big master took that up.
Speaker 1: I wonder if that was if that was in the
Speaker 1: West Bank. Actually, I was kind of half paying attention
Speaker 1: to anyhow elaborate like blood collecting. Right well, Brad, I, right, well,
Speaker 1: you're getting rid of the blood in the case. In
Speaker 1: this case, so you would have to catch the animal,
Speaker 1: hang it upside down from its time quarters and slit
Speaker 1: its neck. Specifically, uh, someone trained to be what's called
Speaker 1: the show it would have to do the slaughtering. Um.
Speaker 1: That's how you say that word. Yeah, And usually that's
Speaker 1: a rabbi, though not always so. For instance, in in
Speaker 1: a halal, the sort of Muslim version of Kosher, any
Speaker 1: Muslim can do the actual slicing of the neck, but
Speaker 1: in in Kasha has to be someone trained to do that.
Speaker 1: So if you're if you're slaughtering cattle, you're not obligated
Speaker 1: to get that thing hanging up by it's hawk alive?
Speaker 1: Are you you are? You have been to a Kosher slaughterhouse.
Speaker 1: They put chains around the back legs and lift it
Speaker 1: up and the cows moving its face off and then
Speaker 1: if someone gets in there with a knife about this long,
Speaker 1: you would be like a knife fighter to get in there.
Speaker 1: I don't know, perfect man, that part can like hypothetically
Speaker 1: be botched as well, right, Like if they don't have
Speaker 1: a clean knife swipe that animal then is not kosher
Speaker 1: if it doesn't die a certain way within a certain
Speaker 1: amount of time. Is that correct? I believe the rules
Speaker 1: do stipulate that. Yet it has to be like a
Speaker 1: very sharp knife. It has to be very quick and clean. Um.
Speaker 1: But yeah, so getting the blood out of the meat
Speaker 1: is a big part of it. Even the liver. You
Speaker 1: actually have to to take the liver out of the
Speaker 1: body is not kosher. Even if that animal is kosher,
Speaker 1: you have to actually cook it over a fire, uh
Speaker 1: in some way to get the blood to all drain out.
Speaker 1: And only then is it kosher to eat what It's true?
Speaker 1: Explain it to me again. You have to get the
Speaker 1: blood out of the liver. You know. The liver is
Speaker 1: a very bloody organ, like when it sits in your
Speaker 1: fridge every day it does a new pool of blood
Speaker 1: around it. Um, So you have to actually slowly cook it.
Speaker 1: So buying raw kosher liver these days is basically impossible
Speaker 1: in the US. It has it's already slightly cooked and
Speaker 1: to get the blood to drip out can't be cooked
Speaker 1: in a pan because the blood would then sit around it.
Speaker 1: They cook it on like a great basically, so all
Speaker 1: the blood can drip out of it. So they're not
Speaker 1: eating blood sausage. Definitely not only God can do that,
Speaker 1: I guess. And then just to stay on this subject
Speaker 1: for a second, on the kosher slaughter subject, is there
Speaker 1: is there's an inspection of the animal then to determine
Speaker 1: had it been healthy correct, correct, And it focuses on
Speaker 1: the lungs. And there used to be actually a more
Speaker 1: involved process where you have to check I forget if
Speaker 1: it's seventeen or twenty something body parts. But sometime in
Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, all the grabbis decided that we can
Speaker 1: just check the lungs and they'll sort of be a
Speaker 1: proxy for the health of the whole animal. So when
Speaker 1: you're in the kosher slaughterhouses, a bunch of slaughterhouse workers,
Speaker 1: you know, moving the half carcasses along the ceiling and
Speaker 1: the racks that are moving along the ceiling, and then
Speaker 1: there's a bunch of show hits and rabbis that are
Speaker 1: looking at the lungs. So after they cut the animal
Speaker 1: and open its chest cavity, they pull the lungs out,
Speaker 1: bring it over to a table and look at the
Speaker 1: surface of it to see if there's any white scar
Speaker 1: tissue on it, which would be evidence of pneumonia or
Speaker 1: other lung infections in the past. And these are religious figures,
Speaker 1: not not food specialists, correct, But there it is. It's
Speaker 1: a career path you can go on. Many rabbis do
Speaker 1: choose to get trained as a show hit to then
Speaker 1: go into that industry as well, like a side hustle.
Speaker 1: I suppose. I like to imagine that they all started
Speaker 1: the same and uh, there's some back and forth and like, hey,
Speaker 1: so what are you gonna do? Right? And I feel
Speaker 1: like I would be much more on the um slaughterhouse
Speaker 1: floor path then um, you know, having a congregation of sorts, right.
Speaker 1: It's like choosing your medical specialty. It's like do you
Speaker 1: want to be hanging around cows hanging upside down or
Speaker 1: just want to do bar mitzvas for suburban brass rightly?
Speaker 1: And and this slaughterhouse equipment, he's not doublings like non
Speaker 1: kosher slaughter house equipment as well, right, like they're they're
Speaker 1: not doing all the same process with meat that's also
Speaker 1: going to the local grocery store that's non kosher. No,
Speaker 1: you can't. You cannot have any non kosher animals in
Speaker 1: that facility at all. Although, to be fair, the one
Speaker 1: that I wrote about in my book the Slaughterhouse, another
Speaker 1: time I went there and there was a pig hanging
Speaker 1: on the side and the guy's like, you didn't see that.
Speaker 1: What was going on with that? I don't know, just
Speaker 1: you know, he had the walk in freezer space and
Speaker 1: someone with a pig wanted to put it there, and
Speaker 1: so he's like, wow, And I think that. I think
Speaker 1: that happens a lot. Like let's say you slice the honestly,
Speaker 1: you slice, the animal doesn't die right away, like I'm
Speaker 1: sure sometimes they're out, you know, sl sliced lfe again. Um,
Speaker 1: that's why a lot of there's so many gradations of
Speaker 1: how strict you are, and there's a lot of fudging,
Speaker 1: which is why some very religious people will not eat
Speaker 1: even something stamped kosher, depending who stamped it, they might
Speaker 1: not eat it because they don't trust that person or
Speaker 1: this person. Yeah, exactly, your your your knife man. Would
Speaker 1: he also then be more uh, sought after to perform
Speaker 1: a bress good? Good question. It's like I did a
Speaker 1: couple of thousand kosher beef. Different technique, also different knife size,
Speaker 1: machete down. Uh. You got into buying hole animals? Yes, um,
Speaker 1: not live but actually that same slaughterhouse they had um
Speaker 1: they would do lamb or sheep and go, And so
Speaker 1: I picked up a whole animal from them several times.
Speaker 1: That was while I was in medical school studying anatomy.
Speaker 1: But were you doing it just because we like, why
Speaker 1: did you know what was going to tie into your career? No?
Speaker 1: I mean I was just curious. I guess I'm still
Speaker 1: not sure it has tied into my career. I guess
Speaker 1: just right writing made it tied into my career. Coming
Speaker 1: on podcasts like this made it tie in. But I
Speaker 1: think I was just curious. I mean I was, I
Speaker 1: was sort of fascinated. So once I started dissecting the
Speaker 1: human in anatomy lab in medical school, like on the
Speaker 1: first day of medical school, we start the process in
Speaker 1: this class called anatomy lab. You meet your cadaver and
Speaker 1: start dissecting. They're they're laying face down on the metal
Speaker 1: gurney and you start with learning the superficial muscles of
Speaker 1: the back, like the lats or latismus, Dorsey and others.
Speaker 1: So um, but that first day for me, it was
Speaker 1: very eye opening. It was really revelatory in some ways.
Speaker 1: I just absolutely loved it. And actually there's a triangle roast. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: so I didn't know too much about different kinds of
Speaker 1: cuts yet, but I did decide on that first day
Speaker 1: to donate my own body to that same process, like
Speaker 1: to donate it to a medical school to be dissected
Speaker 1: by medical students, just because I was super fascinated with
Speaker 1: the process. Does every med student cut into a person nowadays? Less? So,
Speaker 1: there's actually some really very high quality virtual dissection programs. Um,
Speaker 1: there's actually this digital It's the size of a table,
Speaker 1: the size of a metal gurney lying in front of you.
Speaker 1: It's called the anatomage and uh, you literally can go
Speaker 1: through it, um to an amazing degree that I before
Speaker 1: I saw that, I thought that virtual could be no substitute.
Speaker 1: But after I saw that, honestly not sure. But I'm
Speaker 1: still very glad I got to cut open an actual person.
Speaker 1: What's that feel like? Man? Does it feel like like sinful,
Speaker 1: Like what's that feel like? I think it's the most
Speaker 1: surprising thing was how quickly everyone got used to it.
Speaker 1: I think everyone was super worried when they were going
Speaker 1: in like holy crap, day one, like here's a dead body,
Speaker 1: now start cutting it apart, and like I think within
Speaker 1: a week everyone it was just like another day at
Speaker 1: the office. Honestly, which is a sign? Who was your person?
Speaker 1: Some overweight old man? That's what I was gonna ask.
Speaker 1: There's no way for you to get any like history
Speaker 1: of that, like getting curious about that person and figuring
Speaker 1: out who they were and what their deal was. No,
Speaker 1: I mean they're I mean to be graphic. Their face
Speaker 1: is sort of smushed um and just because they're laying
Speaker 1: face down on the kourney um and so their face
Speaker 1: is sort of like stuck in that smushed uh. Not
Speaker 1: that seeing them would tell you who it is, but
Speaker 1: not fresh. So they're embombed. So they drain the blood
Speaker 1: out not too dissimilar from kosher meat, and then put
Speaker 1: a big hose into the big veins of the neck
Speaker 1: or upper chest and running you know, formaldehyde or whatever
Speaker 1: the latest version of formaldehyde is. So the body is
Speaker 1: generally preserved and smells like preservative, and you don't know
Speaker 1: where they came from, how they died. No, I mean
Speaker 1: you can tell, like you can see things. You can
Speaker 1: see medical evidence of disease. You know, Like my guy
Speaker 1: had bad coronary artery disease. Like literally the coronary arteries
Speaker 1: were like crunchy, you could crunch them with your hand,
Speaker 1: like calcification, which goes along with CORNERI just sort of
Speaker 1: spongy soft tissue like like muscle. Let's say, um, but
Speaker 1: things get calcified as the age, especially when you have
Speaker 1: hardening of the artery. The hardening is actually calcium being deposited.
Speaker 1: He also had like he was clearly a smoker based
Speaker 1: on the um the color of his lungs, which were
Speaker 1: like ash gray. Uh. And also they looked like emphysema.
Speaker 1: Emphysema lungs look like extra bubbly, kind of extra big
Speaker 1: and extra bubbly. Um, So he's a smoker, which probably
Speaker 1: contributed as coronary artery disease. And I don't know what
Speaker 1: he died of specifically, Like you could look at the
Speaker 1: heart and actually see evidence of a heart attack. You know,
Speaker 1: part of the heart muscle would die and turn another color.
Speaker 1: Depending on how long you live after the heart attack,
Speaker 1: it goes through color changes. You know, if you die
Speaker 1: right away, it would be stuck in that initial color,
Speaker 1: but if you live another ivors, it continues to remodel
Speaker 1: and scar, so you can't tell. I mean that's what
Speaker 1: pathologists do when they do an autopsy to find the
Speaker 1: cause of death. You know, you could cut open the
Speaker 1: lung arteries and find a huge clot in there and maybe, oh,
Speaker 1: they died of a pulmonary embolism. Did you check see
Speaker 1: were you able to check his stomach contents? I don't
Speaker 1: think we opened the No, we didn't open the g
Speaker 1: I tract. I've done that on animals many times now.
Speaker 1: Having no background in this um, it doesn't seem like
Speaker 1: this guy fits the profile somebody who normally donates their body.
Speaker 1: I would imagine those folks are like quite fit and
Speaker 1: proud of what they got going on, not not an
Speaker 1: overweight I think you're reading the let's let's hear right,
Speaker 1: like you want to show people donate their bodies. The body.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that's more likely where they're gonna remember
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Yeah, So what what is like the normal
Speaker 1: profile of the cadaver. Yeah. Don't you think the vein though,
Speaker 1: would want to keep it all to themselves. I think
Speaker 1: they'd want rooting around in there. I really let myself go.
Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna update my I'm gonna update my
Speaker 1: body donors ship on the back of my driver's license
Speaker 1: because I'm just not looking at my best. Thankfully we
Speaker 1: have someone here you can tell me if I'm right
Speaker 1: or wrong. So what's like the normal profile? I mean,
Speaker 1: all the bodies and it was probably about thirty bodies
Speaker 1: in that room, and they were all elderly, um so
Speaker 1: not not in the prime of life. I mean, I
Speaker 1: can't say any looked great, but I didn't really look
Speaker 1: at them. None of them caught your eye. I wasn't.
Speaker 1: I mean they all smelled terrible and look of course
Speaker 1: sort of gray, but definitely like my cadaver was very obedes.
Speaker 1: Like the layer of blubber on his back was you know,
Speaker 1: to three inches at least. And that made me think,
Speaker 1: while thinking I want to donate my body to this process,
Speaker 1: like I should really stay fit, um so that the
Speaker 1: medical students who are picking me up apart my carcass
Speaker 1: don't have to fat it's just you get grease spots
Speaker 1: all over her, the scrubs you're wearing his little bits
Speaker 1: fat ale over your gloves and on your scalpel and
Speaker 1: scissors and stuff. It's slippery, it's hard to you know,
Speaker 1: grab stuff. It really gets in the way. Here's something
Speaker 1: my I learned not too long ago, which is something
Speaker 1: I like to think about during these winter driving conditions,
Speaker 1: is that there's mobile cadaver labs. Did you know that?
Speaker 1: I don't know what that means. So they well like
Speaker 1: different facilities, right, they don't have the space two offer
Speaker 1: like full oh medical learning, they're right, And so there's
Speaker 1: companies that are mobile they like the book mobile, but
Speaker 1: with dead bodies exactly brody and occasionally like during like
Speaker 1: our ultra horrid, right horrible for the children, and you're like, oh,
Speaker 1: there's a set my laying over on its side. How
Speaker 1: like what level of dissection did you go to where
Speaker 1: you like peel them back all the skin and the
Speaker 1: muscle and get into the bone and like a breaking
Speaker 1: things down or yes, um, you know the first day
Speaker 1: was just the superficial muscles of the back, then the
Speaker 1: deeper muscles of the back um, and then maybe we
Speaker 1: turned them over and started doing you know, you do
Speaker 1: all the muscles first, you do the extremities. Um. The
Speaker 1: forearm is particularly interesting. You see all the muscles and
Speaker 1: the tendons, how they go down into the hand, and
Speaker 1: you really, you know, look like a puppet from that
Speaker 1: perspective of string puppet um. And then you know the
Speaker 1: head and the neck. We um we ended up. I
Speaker 1: think we saw the head down the middle to look
Speaker 1: at the cross section. And we also used a circular
Speaker 1: saw to like cut down each side of the chest
Speaker 1: and sort of lift the chest off like a plate,
Speaker 1: like a big plate to expose the lungs and heart. Um,
Speaker 1: regular circular saw. Yeah, just know what kind? I'm not
Speaker 1: even sure do you mean like that? You'd get it
Speaker 1: a hardware store. It looked pretty similar. It didn't say
Speaker 1: like Drama on it, but it did look similar and
Speaker 1: probably was a knockoff brand of that. Where do they
Speaker 1: drain the blood from on a could ever? Like into
Speaker 1: I think it's probably just the veins of the neck,
Speaker 1: the internal jugular or the subclavian, which are too um,
Speaker 1: the two big veins that joined together to make the
Speaker 1: superior vena cava. The superior vena cava is sort of
Speaker 1: deeper in the chest, so not as accessible, but the
Speaker 1: internal jugular is very easily accessible in the subclavian as well.
Speaker 1: We often put large i vs. Called central lines in
Speaker 1: those veins because they're pretty accessible. In the phemeral also
Speaker 1: kind of right there in the ingland O crease, you
Speaker 1: know where your leg meets your torso is another big
Speaker 1: vein drain from or get access to with a big ivy.
Speaker 1: You do what I wanted to ask you about. I
Speaker 1: didn't listen to you. You have to go on Fresh Air?
Speaker 1: I did. Was it Terry girls? So you have to
Speaker 1: settle for Dave Davis. It was Terry not knocking them,
Speaker 1: not not no, but my career to go. My career
Speaker 1: goals to go on Fresh Air. But I want to
Speaker 1: have the Terry girls. I know. I got very lucky.
Speaker 1: I didn't get to go into the studio even though
Speaker 1: she's in Philly. Then I live in West Philly. But
Speaker 1: the remote they're doing it remote. Yeah, just I never
Speaker 1: listened to it. We talked about, you know, anatomy and
Speaker 1: food quite a bit about different my experience of dissecting
Speaker 1: at Caldaver. Huh, maybe you could go on Fresh air
Speaker 1: and talk about dejah pooh pitch that just my career goal. Man. Um,
Speaker 1: talk about eating liver or like you point out that
Speaker 1: you can eat everything on a person except the teeth
Speaker 1: and the bones. Yeah, I mean they'll you know, if
Speaker 1: you try to bite them. Sorry sorry, not a person.
Speaker 1: I mean you could that do that too. It's like
Speaker 1: it's in imoral. But the nature is a creature is edible,
Speaker 1: barring the what well, I mean, anything that's gonna break
Speaker 1: your tooth or stabby in the esophagus when you try
Speaker 1: to swallow it. Um, that's the limiting factor. I mean,
Speaker 1: you can make a bone broth still, you could boil it,
Speaker 1: make the broth, you know, soften it. I mean some bones,
Speaker 1: as you know, are soft enough to just eat. Bigger
Speaker 1: bones not so much. I mean everything everything else or
Speaker 1: as what we call what we would call soft tissue
Speaker 1: is just that it's soft, like you can chew it
Speaker 1: up and swallow it. It might not be great, I mean,
Speaker 1: as long as it's not overtly toxic. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't eat like lungs filled with tuberculosis or something
Speaker 1: like that. But but yeah, everything's edible. I mean and
Speaker 1: when you when you look around the cuisines around the
Speaker 1: world and what body parts they have cooked. I mean
Speaker 1: people cook absolutely everything. This boy, it's not like a
Speaker 1: goofy question, but like, what is how different is meat
Speaker 1: like muscle from liver? Say? Very different? I mean in
Speaker 1: compass a shie, it's different looking at it. It's different
Speaker 1: on the microscopic level. It's different in terms of what
Speaker 1: it's made of. I mean, the muscle fibers that comprise
Speaker 1: most of meat are just you know, protein laid out
Speaker 1: in that linear arrangement to contract and create force. And
Speaker 1: the liver is kind of just like a bunch of
Speaker 1: cells and veins and arteries and bile ducts. So it's
Speaker 1: pretty different. Tastes different too. Oh yeah, uh, but you
Speaker 1: enjoy eating it? Yeah. I never liked it as a kid,
Speaker 1: so just you know, I grew up with my family
Speaker 1: eat ate a lot of chopped liver on every holiday,
Speaker 1: and I thought it was absolutely gross. And also I
Speaker 1: never like meat. I never thought beyond that that it's
Speaker 1: gross and I don't want And I never thought, oh,
Speaker 1: this is a liver that came from the abdomen of
Speaker 1: an animal, and I have a very similar organ in
Speaker 1: my abdomen, and how how interesting I want to learn
Speaker 1: more like chopped liver on toast or on crackers or
Speaker 1: just spoon straight, which is totally you know, acceptable, and
Speaker 1: I do that too. So now now I learned to
Speaker 1: like it through through medical school learning all about the liver.
Speaker 1: I mean, you just learned so much about the liver.
Speaker 1: I've probably forgotten more about the liver than I know
Speaker 1: right now wherever we'll know. And and that got me
Speaker 1: fascinated that, oh, this, you know, this muck that my
Speaker 1: family likes to spread on crackers, there is the same
Speaker 1: incredible organ that lives inside of us and inside of
Speaker 1: animals and does a million and one even more than
Speaker 1: other organs. The liver does a million and one things
Speaker 1: to keep us healthy from moment to moment. And and
Speaker 1: then that becomes liver or becomes something edible, or you're
Speaker 1: eating the exact same thing that that thing is in life.
Speaker 1: And so that realization got me interested, and then I
Speaker 1: learned to like it just by trying it and trying
Speaker 1: it again. People point out that what people who don't
Speaker 1: like liver or who think you shouldn't eat liver will
Speaker 1: point out, why would you eat a thing whose job
Speaker 1: it is to filter impurities out of your body, you know,
Speaker 1: which is a great question, right, Well, so it's not
Speaker 1: totally accurate. I mean, the liver does metabolize a lot
Speaker 1: of toxins, so for instance, drinking alcohol or taking two
Speaker 1: high dose as a tylan all, you know, things that
Speaker 1: toxins that come from the outside that we ingest. The
Speaker 1: liver is responsible for detoxifying that. And the liver can
Speaker 1: be injured in the process of detoxifying it. That's why
Speaker 1: it is injured, let's say in the tilean all overdose,
Speaker 1: because it's the one detoxifying it and all those sort
Speaker 1: of radicals that are produced injure it. But that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean that that liver has that toxin in it, and
Speaker 1: if you eat it, you will be you know, you
Speaker 1: will be poisoned. Um And even the liver processes toxins
Speaker 1: that we ourselves make, like we turn over all the
Speaker 1: protein in our body constantly. There's a constant turnover, and
Speaker 1: when you break down protein, you create ammonia. It's just
Speaker 1: a natural byproduct because of proteins, the the molecule with
Speaker 1: nitrogen in it. Right, Carbs and fat do not have nitrogen,
Speaker 1: but protein is the nitrogen containing molecule that were mainly
Speaker 1: made of and so by breaking that down you end
Speaker 1: up with ammonia, which injures your liver, injures your brain,
Speaker 1: can kill you if it gets too high. And so
Speaker 1: it's the liver's job to detoxify that. Um, the liver
Speaker 1: can be injured by it as well, because it's the
Speaker 1: one that's doing the detoxification. But that does not mean
Speaker 1: that eating it will poison you. I mean that being said,
Speaker 1: some things are also stored in the liver, which I
Speaker 1: think that's the that's the question, is like some heavy
Speaker 1: metals and other things can be stored in the liver,
Speaker 1: and so you might not want to eat those. Why
Speaker 1: why why would it be that? Like you shoot a
Speaker 1: yearling white tail and the livers like super mild, not
Speaker 1: real strong flavors taste good, But then you shoot a
Speaker 1: six year old buck and the flavor is just way
Speaker 1: stronger and not as pleasant. Is it just stuff building
Speaker 1: up over years? Because you said, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: detoxifying in some capacity. So are there things that are
Speaker 1: building up in the liver that cause it to taste
Speaker 1: much different? That's a great question. I do I do
Speaker 1: think that is true. You know, older animals, the liver's
Speaker 1: heart like um stronger in flavor and sometimes tougher in texture.
Speaker 1: And I don't know why exactly that is. It could
Speaker 1: also be a normal part of aging, like muscle also
Speaker 1: becomes more tough as you age due to things like
Speaker 1: collage and cross linking and other things, so it could
Speaker 1: be part of the normal aging process of Also knows
Speaker 1: like chicken livers are much softer and almost like drippy.
Speaker 1: If you put a bunch of chicken livers on a skewer,
Speaker 1: they're almost like dripping off of it as where like
Speaker 1: a even a young calves liver is not that drippy,
Speaker 1: which is more solid. I'm not totally sure why that is.
Speaker 1: What about eating kidneys, I think they're good. I just
Speaker 1: gotta snip off that little triangle where the renal artery
Speaker 1: and renal vein to the organ. But people say, when
Speaker 1: you eat kidneys, you're eating piss. I don't think that's true.
Speaker 1: Well it's not true. I mean the similar to the liver,
Speaker 1: as we discussed, you know, the your the kidneys make urine.
Speaker 1: They get blood through the renal artery, extract things into
Speaker 1: the urine, and then whatever's left overflows back out to
Speaker 1: the systemic circulation through the renal vein. There's not much
Speaker 1: storage for urine in the kidney. It's not like the
Speaker 1: bladders up there in the kidney, right, there's just a
Speaker 1: few little beginnings of what will coalescent to the eurotor,
Speaker 1: which is the tube that brings urine from the kidney
Speaker 1: to the bladder. So there's very minimal space for urine.
Speaker 1: It doesn't really sit in the liver, sort of drains
Speaker 1: out immediately, y yes, sorry, in the kidney and whatever
Speaker 1: is left probably when you take it out of the animal.
Speaker 1: Now that the the urtor is like severed, when you
Speaker 1: take it out of the animal, whatever little bit is
Speaker 1: in there probably drips out immediately. Have you yourself or
Speaker 1: did you ever encounter anybody who had eaten a fetus? Um? No,
Speaker 1: but I am curious about that. I know there's a
Speaker 1: Filipino dish called bullute, and and I understand some of
Speaker 1: the plains Indians particularly liked what was the fetus? What
Speaker 1: was the fetus from that? You ate? Blue? Is you're
Speaker 1: eating a um embryonic duck? Oh? The Chinese have a
Speaker 1: thing that with chicken and they the I like if
Speaker 1: if the if the egg would normally hatch at twenty
Speaker 1: seven days, you're getting you know, my numbers are off.
Speaker 1: Let's say that egg would hatch a days. You know,
Speaker 1: there's fifteen day ballue, there's twenty day ballue, and you're
Speaker 1: when you're eating it, you got you could even be
Speaker 1: so late in the development that you're And this is
Speaker 1: a popular dish in the Philippines, and they also kind
Speaker 1: of like to serve it to outsiders to make them
Speaker 1: squirm a little bit. So you're always getting presented with
Speaker 1: with embryonic ducks and you'll be eating it and there's
Speaker 1: like little kind of like you know, there's like bone
Speaker 1: and starting to solidify inside there. I know I didn't
Speaker 1: enjoy it, But you never encounter anybody who was eating
Speaker 1: the fet is from a mammal um. No, I never did.
Speaker 1: I did actually remember in Iceland gathered some wild goose
Speaker 1: eggs and boiled them and there were tiny little birds
Speaker 1: inside that we just crunched on through. Um. But I
Speaker 1: have read that some of the planes bison hunting Native
Speaker 1: Americans eight fetus um. I got to think of it
Speaker 1: as superveal. It must be delicious. Yeah, there was a
Speaker 1: few dishes I've stumbled into and reading about that. The
Speaker 1: thought we're interesting is one, uh, from calves getting the
Speaker 1: curdled mother's milk from the stomachs of calves that are nursing.
Speaker 1: Is that the same as marrow gut? I don't know, No.
Speaker 1: From the chuck wagon. Um, there is like there's a
Speaker 1: dish I think Mexican dish called trepas de lech, which
Speaker 1: is intestine with partially digested milk in it from from youngsters,
Speaker 1: from youngsters. Yeah, And there's also in there's this like
Speaker 1: the chuck wagons, which used to follow the cowboys around Texas.
Speaker 1: I guess they used to cook for them. And there
Speaker 1: was a dish called Son of a Bitch stew that
Speaker 1: supposedly had this ingredient called marrow gut, which is a
Speaker 1: similar It looked like marrow I gather because it was
Speaker 1: sort of a tube filled with this partially digested milk.
Speaker 1: So I'm on the sort of researching this to figure
Speaker 1: out what it is. Some people say it's a little
Speaker 1: tube that connected the third stomach to the fourth stomach,
Speaker 1: but then in the same breath they'll say it's the
Speaker 1: same as traps lech. And if you ever look up
Speaker 1: a YouTube video someone cooking trapast to let. It is
Speaker 1: not a little tube, it's a really long, clearly intestine,
Speaker 1: so I'm not totally sure what that is. We had
Speaker 1: somebody who wrote in um to the podcast that they
Speaker 1: had taken the fetus from a cow elk that they
Speaker 1: had killed in the winter, and they described it as
Speaker 1: though they were they had air in their mouth when
Speaker 1: they were eating it. It was so tender and like
Speaker 1: almost non existent that they they were just chewing on air. Incredible.
Speaker 1: I guess that. I think fetuses and feces might be
Speaker 1: the last frontier for anatomical cuisine. Talk about why you
Speaker 1: can't eat long in America or like why you can't
Speaker 1: sell why it's illegal to sell long in America, But
Speaker 1: they're eating it all over the not all over the world.
Speaker 1: Let me let's start this way. Who eats law um?
Speaker 1: Everyone but the US? Now. I think it's also legal
Speaker 1: in Canada actually, but so common things. You'll find it
Speaker 1: in our in hagus. It's an ingredient in haggis from Scotland,
Speaker 1: which is one of the UK's biggest culinary exports besides
Speaker 1: Scotch whiskey. Um, which is why they want to overturn
Speaker 1: the law. In the US, there's like because when they
Speaker 1: send their hags over here, they have through a long
Speaker 1: free hags. Correct. So they the US government said either
Speaker 1: submit a scientific brief that shows with rigorous studies that
Speaker 1: lungs are not dangerous to ingest, or create a haggis
Speaker 1: recipe that does not contain lungs. And so obviously they
Speaker 1: went with the ladder since it's much cheaper to do
Speaker 1: that and sub oh yeah, big time, especially like to Canada.
Speaker 1: In the US there's a big you know, descendant of
Speaker 1: Scottish immigrant population. I'm not they think they'd be super
Speaker 1: interested in haggess. I guess I'm not so sure. But well,
Speaker 1: the only time I've had it was at a abby
Speaker 1: Burns festival in the US and they had a hagas
Speaker 1: and it wasn't even in the stomach really, it was
Speaker 1: in like a bag of some sort and no lungs
Speaker 1: in it. Probably what's the long substitute? Then, that's a
Speaker 1: good question that might be proprietary, though I'm not totally
Speaker 1: sure what they do. I guess I've heard that lungs
Speaker 1: provide this traditional this desired crumbly texture. To guess that
Speaker 1: people swear By, And there's somebody in the Hagas marketing
Speaker 1: world sitting over there going, if we can only overturn
Speaker 1: this law in the US, sales are gonna explode, right
Speaker 1: dollar bills in his eyes that demands. That's what they think.
Speaker 1: I've like, we've all pulled a bunch of lungs out
Speaker 1: of various big game animals, and it's hard for me
Speaker 1: to imagine, like what would happen to it when you
Speaker 1: cook it? Like if you took a chunk of a
Speaker 1: deer lung the size of like a piece of pie
Speaker 1: and threw it in a frying pan, Like I can
Speaker 1: feel that question, what would happen? I'll tell you. So
Speaker 1: when I was in so you know, mof Alon, Okay,
Speaker 1: when MO was working on all the board, like working
Speaker 1: on all the board ain stuff, traveling for that show
Speaker 1: their eyes wherever the hell and he was somewhere and
Speaker 1: maybe in North Africa, I can't remember. It was working
Speaker 1: on no reservations. Was that the first one parts of
Speaker 1: no Yes, No reservations was before and they're eating all
Speaker 1: kind of lamb lung wherever he was. So then I
Speaker 1: was with Mo when we were in New Zealand. We
Speaker 1: shot a wild wild lamb, and he was real we
Speaker 1: made a big organ scramble and he was real indo
Speaker 1: emphatic about putting dicing up the lung and putting it
Speaker 1: in there. It's it's frothy, you had brain. There's no cheer, yeah,
Speaker 1: but there's no like chew to it or anything. It's
Speaker 1: like it's like a I don't, I haven't on the
Speaker 1: way that I enjoy it. You have to think about
Speaker 1: what it's made of, right, like it it had, it
Speaker 1: holds oxygen right, And so I was talking to yeah,
Speaker 1: when he shot his first book, he said that his
Speaker 1: you know, dad did all the butchering. He didn't want
Speaker 1: anyone to touch it and needed to be butchered the
Speaker 1: proper way with everything preserved because they eat everything. And
Speaker 1: he was actually saying that there's among dish that includes
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of oh fall together and the lung.
Speaker 1: You know, it's kind of like, if I remember correctly,
Speaker 1: it's almost like a little bit foamy or a little
Speaker 1: bit slimy to foolish thinking like chocolate mouse when I
Speaker 1: like seawee or head in my hands. But then cooking
Speaker 1: the water out would be well, I don't know, I'm
Speaker 1: sure Jonathan can speak to that. I mean it is
Speaker 1: the organ is more air than flesh, which makes it
Speaker 1: a little weird in texture. But I guess I've just
Speaker 1: thrown a deer lung in the pott. It does firm
Speaker 1: up a little bit, and you can't take a bite
Speaker 1: of it. I wouldn't. I mean I did that with
Speaker 1: at any seasoning or anything, just to see what it
Speaker 1: would the texture would be like. And you can, you know,
Speaker 1: just like any protein, it sort of firms up when
Speaker 1: you boil it um and so they did get some
Speaker 1: firmness to it and you could cut slices out of
Speaker 1: it un seasoned. What did it tastes like? Like? Not much?
Speaker 1: Just yeah, not much. I mean I had like a
Speaker 1: little bit of a organy, unpleasant taste to it. I
Speaker 1: would say I have had delicious lungs though. Um. One
Speaker 1: dish I had in Israel actually at a Bulgarian restaurant.
Speaker 1: It was called Lungs and Juice, and it was basically
Speaker 1: a tomato juice soup with lungs and they were, yeah,
Speaker 1: kind of cubed up and you could see I was
Speaker 1: sort of dissecting. You could see airways and how they
Speaker 1: branch and the lung had broken down into what we'd
Speaker 1: call lobules. You know, lung is broken down into lobes
Speaker 1: and those are broken down further into lobules, and just
Speaker 1: like you know, collagen holds the whole thing together like
Speaker 1: it does everybody parts when you boil it, the college
Speaker 1: and turns to gelatine and the thing kind of falls apart.
Speaker 1: But that was actually delicious. So when like, what was
Speaker 1: the timeline on the on you not being able to
Speaker 1: sell the stuff in the US, right, so began in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty nine, Uh, the U. S d A decided
Speaker 1: to determine kind of once and for all, this is
Speaker 1: the language in the Federal Code, you know, determine if
Speaker 1: lungs are fit for human consumption or not. And who
Speaker 1: pushed for this or why is unclear. I did a
Speaker 1: bunch of research to the National Archives, and it's not
Speaker 1: clear who or why they pushed for it, but they
Speaker 1: set up a study where U. S d A pathologists,
Speaker 1: uh like, in the late sixties started examining livestock lungs
Speaker 1: specifically from I forget if those calves or or cattle
Speaker 1: or what age, but um, they took about a hundred
Speaker 1: or so lungs and started cutting open all the airways
Speaker 1: kind of all the way down, you know, with a scissor,
Speaker 1: the same way you would look through lungs. Let's say,
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, to look for a clot in the
Speaker 1: branching pulmonary arteries, you can do the same with the airways.
Speaker 1: So you just cut down the track and then cut
Speaker 1: down the bronchi and cut down the bronchials and all
Speaker 1: the way. And they sort of sampled from these deep
Speaker 1: for deeper airways and found things that alarmed them specifically
Speaker 1: like uh, pollen that the animal had inhaled dust, fungal spores,
Speaker 1: and room and contents, so stomach contents had you know,
Speaker 1: come up the esophagus and down into the lungs, maybe
Speaker 1: after death, maybe before death. And so because they were
Speaker 1: in such deep airways, you know, I feel like the
Speaker 1: USDA is always making decisions on what's practical and what's efficient,
Speaker 1: um And so they decided that when they do a
Speaker 1: post mortem examination of an animal and look at the lungs,
Speaker 1: they're not cutting down into the deep airways. And a
Speaker 1: significant proportion of these hundred or so animals had these
Speaker 1: quote contaminants in their deep airways, and so for the
Speaker 1: sake of efficiency and practicality is that, well, we're not
Speaker 1: gonna examine every long specimen that deeply, and since a
Speaker 1: large proportion of them have these quote contaminants, will just
Speaker 1: ban it completely from you know, human consumption basically, so
Speaker 1: they declared it unfit for human consumption. That's what the
Speaker 1: Federal Code says. But this aim declaration that there's no
Speaker 1: declaration about that about kidney, liver, and testine brain, Well
Speaker 1: they don't they're not, I guess exposed to those very
Speaker 1: specifically airborne contaminants. Right, So the lungs are exposed. You know,
Speaker 1: the atmosphere just continues on deep into our chest. It's
Speaker 1: contiguous with the atmosphere. So whatever is in the atmosphere
Speaker 1: we're getting in our lungs, including spores and pollen and
Speaker 1: dust um and our lungs do have a cleaning mechanism.
Speaker 1: In animals and us, we have a what's called the
Speaker 1: mucociliary elevator or mucus elevator. So are lunglining constantly secretes
Speaker 1: mucus that flows and picks up all these debris, picks
Speaker 1: up pollen and spores and whatever, and sort of drags
Speaker 1: it all the way up the airways, and these these
Speaker 1: microscopic hairs called celia sort of beat in a very
Speaker 1: rhythmic pattern that moves the mucus along. The mucus gathers up,
Speaker 1: the trachea comes into our throat and we subconsciously swallow it.
Speaker 1: So the lungs are always cleaning themselves through this mechanism.
Speaker 1: So when you kill an animal, the air born contaminants
Speaker 1: you find in their lungs at that moment would have
Speaker 1: been just what they've inhaled. And you know, I don't
Speaker 1: know the last few minutes, a few hours, because their
Speaker 1: lungs constantly cleaning itself. But at any specific moment when
Speaker 1: you kill them, there's some left in there that has
Speaker 1: not yet been cleared. Um. So then the question is like,
Speaker 1: is that unhealthy? Well, why would that be determined to
Speaker 1: be more dangerous than for instance, when you brought Worst.
Speaker 1: When you brought Worst, it's in a casing, it's in
Speaker 1: a hog middle. Now if you went and try to
Speaker 1: find some dangerous stuff, I would go looking around in
Speaker 1: a hog's gut. Well, they might argue that, well, that
Speaker 1: gut has been totally cleaned and the inner surface, which
Speaker 1: is the mucosa has been scraped off and any remnant
Speaker 1: of microbe that might hurt you is totally gone. Maybe
Speaker 1: they soaked it in you know what, are they soak
Speaker 1: it in lime or lie or something like that, So
Speaker 1: they'd say you can clean it out real good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the lungs you can't clean out specifically in the much
Speaker 1: deeper airways there, there wasn't like a specific pathogen they
Speaker 1: were worried about. It was just a general this stuff's
Speaker 1: not good for humans. Correct, It's always obviously been you
Speaker 1: know U s d A code and the Federal Safety
Speaker 1: Inspection Service, you know the code about which lungs or
Speaker 1: which organs must be discarded. You know, if you find
Speaker 1: actual disease or infection, um, you discard it. So if
Speaker 1: the lung has an abscess you know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: has assisted worms in, it has whatever evidence of anthrax
Speaker 1: something like that, obviously that's you know, you should that
Speaker 1: should be condemned, as they say, um. But yeah, this
Speaker 1: was just they were afraid of people ingesting literally dust,
Speaker 1: pollen and fungal sports from the air. So when you
Speaker 1: found this out, what prevented you from just being from
Speaker 1: saying to yourself hmm, that's interesting. And then moving on, well,
Speaker 1: I think so I came at medical school from the
Speaker 1: like interest in, um, you know, kind of early humans
Speaker 1: and how we get everything, how we eat everything, how
Speaker 1: we make everything. So I came to medicine from that,
Speaker 1: and then that combined into my interest in food. So
Speaker 1: I was bringing my kind of that sort of wilderness
Speaker 1: survival sort of idea with my anatomical and physiologic knowledge
Speaker 1: that I was learning in medical school, and that made
Speaker 1: me question these things, you know, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: is that actually dangerous? Like does that make sense? I
Speaker 1: guess I'm always questioning everything. Like there's a lot of
Speaker 1: stuff that we take for granted, dogma that's been passed down.
Speaker 1: That's true in the medical field. So much of what
Speaker 1: we do is bullshit for lack of a better term, Um,
Speaker 1: there's so much dogma. I mean in food, the dog
Speaker 1: was just off the mean. Give me a couple examples,
Speaker 1: not medicine or and food. Food Damn, give me, give
Speaker 1: me a couple of bullshit food beliefs. Um. Well, I
Speaker 1: would say that the lungs is a great example, Like
Speaker 1: I don't believe those things are unhealthy in any way
Speaker 1: to eat and let me just say, when you when
Speaker 1: your own mucous elevators cleaning out your lungs, your subconsciously
Speaker 1: swallowing all that stuff anyway, all day, every day of
Speaker 1: our lives, we're all swallowing everything we inhale subconsciously. And
Speaker 1: it's unco good point. And it's uncooked right because it's
Speaker 1: directly from our lungs. If you're going to cook an
Speaker 1: animals lung like, there's no way that's dangerous. I just
Speaker 1: don't believe it makes no medical sense. Another thing I questioned,
Speaker 1: like you see this said everywhere, which is that tender
Speaker 1: cuts come from muscles that the animal used less in life.
Speaker 1: That makes no anatomic sense. Is it true, because when
Speaker 1: you don't use a muscle, it atrophies like the bodies.
Speaker 1: I think it that that statement assumes the body is
Speaker 1: inefficient and would maintain muscle it's not using or using
Speaker 1: you know, inadequately. But bodies don't do that. They maintain
Speaker 1: just the amount of muscle that they need. Um, it's
Speaker 1: not it's sort of indirectly has a point to make
Speaker 1: about which muscles have more collagen in them, but it's
Speaker 1: not that they were used less. So it's it's a
Speaker 1: little bit of semantics. But you know, I understood think
Speaker 1: about hard point, medium, rare. Heart is tender, stuffy, some
Speaker 1: bitches working away. You got a big problem if it's not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a great point. And I was sinking to um,
Speaker 1: tongues are real tender. Yeah, Well, I mean, and it's
Speaker 1: a hard work and I don't know they work. Doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like it's working away. I think people assume that,
Speaker 1: you know, muscles from the legs and the arms work
Speaker 1: a lot as opposed to like say, in a quadruped,
Speaker 1: the muscles along the spine, like the tender loin or
Speaker 1: the backstrap don't work as much because they're not upright
Speaker 1: like us. But I do not believe that's true at all.
Speaker 1: So when just as I said, the body is constantly
Speaker 1: remodeling itself and breaking down protein and rebuilding it. If
Speaker 1: you're not using a muscle, it wastes away. Just like
Speaker 1: someone has a limb and a cast. For some months
Speaker 1: they can't use that muscle, and when they take off
Speaker 1: the cast, it looks like skeletal because all the muscles
Speaker 1: wasted away. Before we get back into the longs, what
Speaker 1: does your tender loin do Um, I believe. So the
Speaker 1: tender loin connects, so it's the so s major muscle,
Speaker 1: and it kind of combines with the iliachis muscle, which
Speaker 1: is on the inside your iliac crest. And they go
Speaker 1: down and test your legs. So I believe it's hip flexion.
Speaker 1: They're involved in hip flexion. M hmm, that's what a
Speaker 1: DearS one is. Uh. I believe. So those are tender,
Speaker 1: very but they're working every time he flexes his hips. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I mean even though and so there's another way
Speaker 1: that meat scientists will say it, which is that locomotive
Speaker 1: muscles are tougher than postural muscles. So muscles like the
Speaker 1: legs that make you move are working harder than postural
Speaker 1: muscles that are maybe just doing small adjustments to your spine,
Speaker 1: let's say in a quadruped But that also doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1: You know, when they did these the sheer force tests
Speaker 1: of all the muscles in the body, they discovered, Oh
Speaker 1: my god, the flat iron is super tender like um,
Speaker 1: which surprised everyone. Even though it's a locomotive muscle. It's
Speaker 1: involved in the the four quarter and there's some other
Speaker 1: ones in the back of the high nme quarter that
Speaker 1: they found were super tender. And none of that makes
Speaker 1: sense with the locomotive postural dichotomy doesn't make sense with
Speaker 1: the using the muscle more or less dichotomy. I have
Speaker 1: heard that a hundred million times. Yeah, you hear it
Speaker 1: absolutely everywhere and it again. It has a point, but
Speaker 1: anatomically it makes no sense. It assumes the bodies inefficiently
Speaker 1: maintaining a muscle. It's not using or using less than
Speaker 1: it needs to. To get back to the long thing,
Speaker 1: you actually took the time to write a letter to
Speaker 1: the U. S d A to say, you boys got
Speaker 1: it all wrong on lungs right. Did they take you seriously?
Speaker 1: I haven't heard back yet, though they did acknowledge receipt
Speaker 1: of the petition. You know you can This is the FSI,
Speaker 1: Well that's what they call it. You can you know
Speaker 1: on their website you can submit a petition by emailing
Speaker 1: this address. Um it's the f s I as the
Speaker 1: Federal Safety Inspection Service, which sort of, um, you know,
Speaker 1: creates the rules for what you're supposed to do with
Speaker 1: different body parts. I submitted this the explanation that I
Speaker 1: just gave about the mucociliary elevator, and how we're all
Speaker 1: eating this stuff anyway, and there's no evidence that it's
Speaker 1: unhealthy in any way, especially cooked. And I submit, you know,
Speaker 1: I printed out or included a chapter from a lung
Speaker 1: physiology textbook and highlighted the part about the mucociliary elevator.
Speaker 1: So let's see, I mean, there's no there's no push this.
Speaker 1: This law makes no medical sense and it's not keeping
Speaker 1: anyone safe, but there's no great push to turn it
Speaker 1: over because no one cares about lungs, only the Haggis
Speaker 1: lobby apparently, um even I I read. I spoke with
Speaker 1: the dean of the law school University of Pennsylvania, which
Speaker 1: is down the street from my house, and he he
Speaker 1: is a specialist in food and drug law. He never
Speaker 1: heard of this law, like, no one's ever heard of it.
Speaker 1: It's just on the books and forgotten. And it's there
Speaker 1: because of what we call regulatory inertia, like no one's
Speaker 1: pushing to overturn it. Where where do lungs, like from
Speaker 1: a slaughterhouse, where do they end up? Like do they
Speaker 1: get used elsewhere or end up in the trash or
Speaker 1: so that's a great question actually in the law that
Speaker 1: bands lungs for human consumption. There's a stipulation that pharmaceutical
Speaker 1: companies can still get them because they harvest something from
Speaker 1: them called surfactant, which is a soap like molecule that
Speaker 1: helps the lungs not collapse when you exhale, and it's
Speaker 1: actually turned into a drug that is squirted into the
Speaker 1: tray ch as of premature babies. Um, I've done that before.
Speaker 1: So one of the last things to develop in your
Speaker 1: body before you come out of the womb is this surfactant.
Speaker 1: Because you're not breathing the whole time you're in the womb.
Speaker 1: You're about to take your first breath. So this surfactant
Speaker 1: helps the soap like molecule, you know, half is dissolved
Speaker 1: and water half dissolves and lipids. It keeps the alveoli,
Speaker 1: the microscopic air sax open when you exhale. Otherwise they
Speaker 1: would just collapse on themselves. And that's what happens when
Speaker 1: babies are born premature and don't have surfactant yet, they
Speaker 1: have respiratory distress syndrome and often have trouble breathing. So
Speaker 1: you actually take this stuff that is I think there's
Speaker 1: some synthetic varieties but some are actually still harvested from
Speaker 1: from bovine lungs, and you literally, you know, like you're
Speaker 1: intibating someone put a breathing tub and you actually just
Speaker 1: squirt this stuff and you actually you roll the baby
Speaker 1: to one side, squired a little in to get into
Speaker 1: that long and then you roll them over to the
Speaker 1: other side, squired a little more and to get into
Speaker 1: that long after they're born, after they're born, immediately after
Speaker 1: they're born. Actually, well, I guess depending on the eight
Speaker 1: you might wait to see if they have the respiratory difficulties,
Speaker 1: or depending on their age, you might just give it
Speaker 1: because they're very likely to have it if they're very premature.
Speaker 1: That was written in the law. Yeah, so I've heard
Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory that the pharmaceutical companies are behind the
Speaker 1: law they wanted more. Yeah, how much. I don't find
Speaker 1: that there's no short I think there's no shortage of lunges.
Speaker 1: There are they synthetic alternatives? Are they used for like
Speaker 1: dog food or fertilizer or anything like that. So there's
Speaker 1: dog treats also that are you can see them in
Speaker 1: grocery stores, like lung dog treats. Yeah, like a drop Yeah,
Speaker 1: how about a long term v O two max study
Speaker 1: on these kids with the bovine lung juice shot into them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean a lot of them do end up with
Speaker 1: chronic lung issues. I mean I think the the surfactant
Speaker 1: lessens them. But does isn't you know? Perfectly curative because
Speaker 1: a lot of those kids still have trouble breathing and
Speaker 1: need a lot of support. Um, So it's probably much
Speaker 1: better than it would be if you didn't do it,
Speaker 1: though I don't know the evidence behind it. Are the
Speaker 1: specifics of the law that you can't sell long or
Speaker 1: that you can't eat long? Like can we legally eat
Speaker 1: the lung from a deer? Yes, there's nothing about It's
Speaker 1: it's more about selling um or serving in a restaurant,
Speaker 1: which is sort of indirectly selling um. Wild game or
Speaker 1: if you slaughter your own you can absolutely eat lung. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is off lung too. Bath. Look, you might answer,
Speaker 1: you might know the answer to this question. What does
Speaker 1: all the hubbub um? Do you know about the Do
Speaker 1: you do you know much about the like non pasteurized
Speaker 1: milk craze and all that I'm aware of it. I
Speaker 1: don't know a ton about it. Do you know what's
Speaker 1: dangerous about it? Um? Well, I know once. I mean,
Speaker 1: I feel like I was just thinking about this the
Speaker 1: other day. There's a lot of movement towards you know,
Speaker 1: raw milk and just everything raw and less process and
Speaker 1: less over you know, less oversight, less um, pasteurization, whatever,
Speaker 1: and I think, I mean, there are you know, probably
Speaker 1: nowadays we have a cleaner food supply than they did
Speaker 1: a hundred years ago, when these laws are probably more important.
Speaker 1: But there probably will be some disease. I don't think
Speaker 1: it will be common, but you know, the risk is
Speaker 1: very small, I think, not zero. One of the things though,
Speaker 1: is there's actually something called bovine TB where there's a
Speaker 1: kind of it's um Microbacterium bovis I believe, as opposed
Speaker 1: to the one that infects humans and I don't I
Speaker 1: don't know what it's prevalences and cow milk these days
Speaker 1: in the US, but there is a kind of that
Speaker 1: kind of tuberculous is that can and it would go
Speaker 1: to your intestines and cause kind of an intestinal TB
Speaker 1: or we'd call it a t B and too right,
Speaker 1: it's not like in the lungs because you're not inhaling it.
Speaker 1: That was one of the you know, reasons for the
Speaker 1: processing of milk, and I'm sure there's others as well.
Speaker 1: I don't know as much about. Uh. When you why, like,
Speaker 1: do you do you really care about the long issue
Speaker 1: or is it just academic for you? Well, it's I
Speaker 1: don't care a lot. I mean, I surely I want
Speaker 1: the laws of our country to be sensible, especially when
Speaker 1: they're in the area that I know most about, which
Speaker 1: is medicine and health. Um, they shouldn't be stupid. I
Speaker 1: feel like don't be stupid is a good philosophy for laws.
Speaker 1: But um, I mean part of it's fun. Um maybe
Speaker 1: bragging rights. If they actually overturn it, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it would be great. I put it on your resume.
Speaker 1: Have you followed c W D much a little bit? Yeah? Uh?
Speaker 1: What's your take on on the idea that that you
Speaker 1: know those those prions? Are you a prion or preon?
Speaker 1: Say pry on that the prions. I've heard people smarter
Speaker 1: than me say pre on though, but I still like saying, okay,
Speaker 1: the prions that that caused mad cow disease. Uh scrapy uh.
Speaker 1: Jako Kreutz felt whatever all these things. What is it?
Speaker 1: Kuru kay? You are you? That's the one that was
Speaker 1: the common in Papua New Guinea when they would eat
Speaker 1: their ancestors, eat their relatives. That in an animal, those
Speaker 1: prions are apparently more prevalent in the nervous system, so
Speaker 1: more prevalent in brain and spine. So you'll have people
Speaker 1: like guys like me whatever who maybe used to saw
Speaker 1: um little chops, little bone in chops, and people be like, oh,
Speaker 1: don't do that, because you're getting the prions all over everything.
Speaker 1: Are we? Is that all mental masturbation if you're eating
Speaker 1: the animal anyway? Well, I think I'm not an expert
Speaker 1: in this area, but I do think that the danger
Speaker 1: is very low and might be zero. Um. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess when you're cooking it. I mean, prions can
Speaker 1: survive thousands of degrees they can survive. Can they survive
Speaker 1: like cooking temperatures that they can survive? No. I heard
Speaker 1: they can survive the surface of the sun like that.
Speaker 1: It's like wildly Remember when some politician was making some
Speaker 1: politician made a thing against c W d UH research
Speaker 1: and he was saying, we'll just cook your meat, and
Speaker 1: someone pointed out that you have to be cooking your
Speaker 1: meat the nine degrees, which is for several hours. I
Speaker 1: just which is which is way outside the capacity of
Speaker 1: your average any homeowner, of any homeowners oven is hitting
Speaker 1: nine degrees. Isn't gonna happen? Well, I guess I'm mistaken
Speaker 1: about that. But I mean there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: out there eating similar chops as you, And if there
Speaker 1: haven't been any cases yet, I'd say that's pretty reassuring.
Speaker 1: So are you not worried about cw D from it
Speaker 1: from a eating from I'm not saying you're given I'm
Speaker 1: not trying to put in given medical device, but when
Speaker 1: you look at the fact that no one's gotten it
Speaker 1: from dear meat, Yeah, if you shot if you shot
Speaker 1: one and got it tested, would you just like you
Speaker 1: personally would just be like to health that I'm eating
Speaker 1: it anyway, like and I know that it has CWD
Speaker 1: this animal good question. Honestly, I would probably not eat
Speaker 1: the nervous tissue in that case, but you eat the meat. Maybe,
Speaker 1: I guess I would have to do more research. Well,
Speaker 1: here's one for you, jumping back to our milk question. Okay,
Speaker 1: the Journal Tuberculosis Independent Study. They you know, gathered a
Speaker 1: bunch of studies from two thousand sixty seven articles eighty
Speaker 1: three studies and found a consensus of five percent uh
Speaker 1: milk would be infected with with bovine TV if it
Speaker 1: wasn't pasteurized, If it wasn't pasteurized, I guess that a
Speaker 1: gamble you'd be willing to take, good question. I guess
Speaker 1: I'd want to know what, you know, do all of
Speaker 1: those have an infectious dose worth in them? How much
Speaker 1: you'd have to drink to get infected? And what's the
Speaker 1: you know, what's the infection rate? I mean, a bunch
Speaker 1: of humans drink salmonella and not all of them are
Speaker 1: gonna get sick. So I guess you know, it's always
Speaker 1: a percentage. Yeah, Salmonilla was a big one when I
Speaker 1: was punching in milk, like, yeah, salmonilla is the seems
Speaker 1: to raise more hairs than bovine TV does. I spent
Speaker 1: some time with a I did a story years ago
Speaker 1: about livestock theft out of wrestling, and I got to
Speaker 1: spend much time with the stock detective in California, also
Speaker 1: an idol. But this guy in California had been tasked
Speaker 1: with breaking up these little non pasteurized milk schemes, and
Speaker 1: the way it goes is this undercover well it checked
Speaker 1: this out. So here's how they get around it. You
Speaker 1: don't buy the milk. You buy a share of a cow,
Speaker 1: and then you get your portion of your You get
Speaker 1: your shares worth of your cow's milk because you own it. Okay.
Speaker 1: So I have a dairy cow, I sell ten shares
Speaker 1: to people and then they get one tenth of that
Speaker 1: dairy cow's output. I haven't sold them the milk. I
Speaker 1: haven't sold them the raw milk. I've sold that. I've
Speaker 1: just told them part of my cow. What they do
Speaker 1: with their cow's milk because their business. Okay. When he
Speaker 1: was working these little schemes, um, what he started doing
Speaker 1: was finding out who are okay, who are the owners?
Speaker 1: Give me their names. I'd like to go visit with
Speaker 1: them and and see their brand, inspection papers and all
Speaker 1: their paperwork for the cow that they own, which for
Speaker 1: any idea what he was talking about, so you yeah,
Speaker 1: it was like, so you don't own the cow because
Speaker 1: you don't have anything that signifies your legal ownership of
Speaker 1: livestock registered to the state. And that was how they
Speaker 1: got after these milk shares that's a I don't mean
Speaker 1: the stereotype, but that's that's a real hippie business. But
Speaker 1: that that's probably one of those. That's one of those
Speaker 1: areas where the left, the radical left, and the radical
Speaker 1: right come around and meet. They come around and meet
Speaker 1: like in a weird land, because like hippies are you know,
Speaker 1: like natural is good, right then on the rights, on
Speaker 1: the left you got like everything anything natural is good.
Speaker 1: On the right, you got the garment. Can't tell me
Speaker 1: what to do. They don't want me eating raw milk,
Speaker 1: therefore I'm gonna eat it. And they come back around
Speaker 1: and they meet where hippies meet. It's like the crazy
Speaker 1: ass right wing people. That that would be like a
Speaker 1: great um You'd never be able selled as a TV show,
Speaker 1: but it would be a good book if you did
Speaker 1: ten chapters and each chapter was where crazy ass hippies
Speaker 1: and super right wingers meet up and just spend time
Speaker 1: in those ten worlds. That's what I love about dive
Speaker 1: bars in Bozeman, like during ski season, is that you
Speaker 1: are at the bottom of the horseshoe for both sides,
Speaker 1: like especially if you go to like Stacy's or something
Speaker 1: like the the Horseshoe is very apparent. It's great. I
Speaker 1: used to go to a bar in Missoula and it
Speaker 1: was like ranchers and earth firsters, you know, And I
Speaker 1: always want to be like, do you know what the
Speaker 1: guy down the bar does? He keeps buying around? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I gotta think about that book where I might be
Speaker 1: on something. Man, there's some good would be called the
Speaker 1: Bottom of the Horseshoe. Yeah, you gotta like Stacy's like
Speaker 1: this time of your ski season. You'll have fellas that
Speaker 1: are in like cowboy hats and chaps like real cowboys,
Speaker 1: and they'll be listen, there's no real cowboy at a
Speaker 1: bar and chaps I have the point and they'll be bellied.
Speaker 1: You might be a different kind of bar like. So
Speaker 1: it's like, but they have had Spencer. I'd like to
Speaker 1: show you the hitching posts you got me there. They'll
Speaker 1: be bellied up next to somebody who's got like a
Speaker 1: Hemp sweatshirt and dreadlocks. And it's great. I love it.
Speaker 1: That book idea is so good you just might want
Speaker 1: to edit it out of this podcast. Man. Plus, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna piss enough people off to her, you know,
Speaker 1: its gonna sell real, Well, it's good ship. Do we
Speaker 1: cut it out, Phil or do you think me talking
Speaker 1: about it has gotten Here's the thing. I am writing
Speaker 1: a book your helmet, Okay, just started it. I have
Speaker 1: the gun work on a book called the Bottom of
Speaker 1: the Horseshoe, and it is about where crazy ass hippies
Speaker 1: and radical right wingers meet, guns, unpasteurized milk, home school vaccines.
Speaker 1: It exists. I've I've actually read the first chapter. It's
Speaker 1: it's just says chapter one. It's great The Bottom of
Speaker 1: the horse Shoe Steven Ronella where it's the subtitles where
Speaker 1: crazy ass hippies and radical right wingers agree. It includes
Speaker 1: chapters on firearms, um, oh, chickens, backyard chickens would be
Speaker 1: a great backyard chickens, vaccines, elk, non pasteurized milk, homeschooling.
Speaker 1: I'll think it's more. That's kind of Livingstone's whole tourism campaign. Literally, yeah,
Speaker 1: we're artists, artists and cowboys meet, yeah, or something like that.
Speaker 1: So Dr Rice, and what's your uh now that you've
Speaker 1: become familiar over the last six years with with hunters hunters, okay,
Speaker 1: in wild game consumption, what are your um, what are
Speaker 1: your warnings? And your hot tips for people that that
Speaker 1: butcher their own stuff, eat their own stuff. Do you
Speaker 1: see our community doing ship where you're like, I would
Speaker 1: not do that from a medical professional standpoint, or where
Speaker 1: you're like, I wonder why those people don't do that? Um, well,
Speaker 1: I guess you know, all doctors give advice based on
Speaker 1: their own levels of fear and worry and things, and
Speaker 1: I kind of don't worry too much about those things.
Speaker 1: I mean, I you know, process animals, gut hums and
Speaker 1: butcher them without gloves. I do. I mean maybe I shouldn't.
Speaker 1: I mean, when I was in India, I also ate
Speaker 1: everything street food. You know, the restaurants with more roaches
Speaker 1: had the better food. Honestly, Um, I'm just not like
Speaker 1: nervous about those things. Maybe it should be more so,
Speaker 1: but my usually, like with milk, I kind of feel
Speaker 1: like the people who are saying it's dangerous or exaggerating,
Speaker 1: and the people who say it's going to make you
Speaker 1: live forever or exaggerating, I kind of think everyone's just exaggerating.
Speaker 1: So you don't you don't impulsively put on not impulsively,
Speaker 1: you don't in a calculated fash and put latex gloves
Speaker 1: on one handling game. I don't. I mean, I guess
Speaker 1: sometimes when I'm trying to keep the fur and you know,
Speaker 1: tarso glands off the meat and stuff like that, sometimes
Speaker 1: I will, but not because I'm afraid of like hurting,
Speaker 1: you know, getting any contracting a disease myself. But that
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of like not not like a nervous,
Speaker 1: precautious person, pre cautious, nervous Nellie. I'm not who is
Speaker 1: Nellie nervous Nellie? There's a nervous ned both. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard ned. Yeah, pick your audience, though,
Speaker 1: we'll get it. So there's that one. What about if
Speaker 1: you're eating a whole bunch of bone marrow all the time?
Speaker 1: Is that super bad for you? Not that I know of.
Speaker 1: It's delicious. Why what what's the danger? I don't know. Man,
Speaker 1: when we've got into eating love, but I always felt
Speaker 1: like I was doing something bad. I'm not sure you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you know infectious disease or food inspection specialists
Speaker 1: might specialist might have more to say. I've been saying
Speaker 1: eat all thee you want. I've been making a lot
Speaker 1: of duck stock lately, and I have found that the
Speaker 1: duck stock is better like the nasty or your duck
Speaker 1: carcasses look on the way in. So like basically, all
Speaker 1: I do at this point is make sure that that
Speaker 1: the end of the aggestive tract is out of there,
Speaker 1: so it's basically poop free. But there's no rinse involved
Speaker 1: or anything like that. But there's chunks along kidneys, you know,
Speaker 1: lots of congealed blood stuff like that, and that does
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't smell good on the way am,
Speaker 1: But I'll roast a batch or I'll just throw it
Speaker 1: all in the pressure cooker or roast it and then
Speaker 1: put it in the pressure cooker, and it is within
Speaker 1: five minutes of basically heating that stuff it you're ready
Speaker 1: to dig in. It's awesome. You're taking You're roasting in
Speaker 1: the oven the carcasses just to put a little brown
Speaker 1: on them. And then you're pressure cooking yours just just
Speaker 1: for the speed. For how long you're doing it half
Speaker 1: an hour, you know, because I'm trying to put a
Speaker 1: lot of liquid in there too, so and then you're
Speaker 1: siving it off and clarifying it and ship. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: not a big clarifying like the clarifying with the egg yolks.
Speaker 1: You don't do any now. No, I like it. Well,
Speaker 1: like the stock to look like it's gonna provide some
Speaker 1: cloud stock. Where are you guys at in the medical
Speaker 1: world right now about eating all kind of animal fat.
Speaker 1: Things seem to be in flux. Um, I know, like,
Speaker 1: for instance, with salt. I spoke to a nutrition researcher
Speaker 1: from Canada a few weeks back, and it seems like,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess they did the largest study ever,
Speaker 1: multinational study, you know, better high quality study, better ability
Speaker 1: to compute the data than ever before, and found that
Speaker 1: basic You know, everyone agrees that super high salt is bad.
Speaker 1: But I guess the question is where's the cut off?
Speaker 1: And the cut off this study suggested that cut off
Speaker 1: people have been giving is much too low. Like you
Speaker 1: can have more AsSalt than people have been saying and
Speaker 1: suffer no ill consequences. I do think, you know, there's
Speaker 1: a lot more coming out on saturated fat and stuff
Speaker 1: like that. I feel like the whole nutrition world is
Speaker 1: in flux, and people think doctors are a bunch of
Speaker 1: idiots on nutrition and they're correct. Um, I think people
Speaker 1: don't what to think, and honestly, most doctors don't want
Speaker 1: to think either, So I would say, eat animal fat.
Speaker 1: Do you picture a world in the future where all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, um, someone's like, damn sugar, lots of sugar,
Speaker 1: super good for you. Like one of the things that
Speaker 1: that we right now think are bad, that you think
Speaker 1: will always be bad. And what do you think are
Speaker 1: kind of basils when you look at it, Well, like
Speaker 1: saturated fat, cholesterol was and salt were sort of the
Speaker 1: old enemies. Um, and now it seems like sugar is
Speaker 1: more of an enemy. You know. Cholester the new and
Speaker 1: better I guess the thing is they're doing new, better
Speaker 1: and bigger studies with better methodology, better ability to compute
Speaker 1: and process the huge amounts of data, and they're finding
Speaker 1: that a lot of the old studies are not not
Speaker 1: so great. So, you know, cholesterol, eating it does not
Speaker 1: change your cholesterol. It's eating cholesterol does not change your cholesterol. Correct,
Speaker 1: it seems with the latest studies. That's why we thought
Speaker 1: bone marrows. I don't know what. I don't even know
Speaker 1: if it has a lot, but that's why we thought
Speaker 1: bone marrow was bad. I know it has a lot
Speaker 1: of saturated fat. I'm not totally sure about cholesterol content,
Speaker 1: but um, yeah, I mean I think I would say,
Speaker 1: if you're being truly scientific, you should never say network
Speaker 1: will never think sugar is good for you. I mean
Speaker 1: that you should never say never because you never know.
Speaker 1: I mean, you should do large studies and see what
Speaker 1: they show. But I kind of I eat saturated fat.
Speaker 1: I don't you know. I feel like when I was
Speaker 1: a medical student advising my primary care patients, it was
Speaker 1: sort of like, eat more greens, you know, but don't
Speaker 1: fry it in anything that will make it actually taste good.
Speaker 1: I feel like they're gonna be like, what are you
Speaker 1: kidding me? Like, I'm just gonna continue eating what I
Speaker 1: was like. Um, I feel like if you tell people like,
Speaker 1: fry your vegetables and bacon fat, they'll probably eat a
Speaker 1: lot more vegetables, and I think overall that might be healthier.
Speaker 1: Got got that's my own again, my own personal take.
Speaker 1: Every doctor has their own style, and the science is
Speaker 1: so in flux. The evidences in flux. I know you've
Speaker 1: had strictly carnivore people on this podcast before, Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I don't know that that's Yeah, it seems a little extreme.
Speaker 1: To me, I in my long absence from the podcast,
Speaker 1: have you guys covered the the recent find of like
Speaker 1: Paleo man and their diet, like all the interesting things
Speaker 1: that popped up and a big basically like of of
Speaker 1: like actual meal making, right and this just this concurring
Speaker 1: theme that we have, that long, long running theme of
Speaker 1: um like Neanderthal, right like, now we have a better
Speaker 1: picture of the fact that Neanderthal was combining ingredients at
Speaker 1: the old time versus this carnivore belief of it was
Speaker 1: just pure protein, animal protein, animal fat all the time
Speaker 1: or there was nothing. They're using grains and other things
Speaker 1: and making like what one might describe as a recipe
Speaker 1: right right, Like it's a we have a better picture
Speaker 1: now of that was very likely, which if you do
Speaker 1: think about it, like if you watch a small child
Speaker 1: or any other animal wander around like they're constantly try
Speaker 1: and stuff, it's hard to imagine Neanderthal was like nope,
Speaker 1: like I'd rather starve. Yeah, I think you need to
Speaker 1: take it into larger context of activity level and what
Speaker 1: you know, just the diet overall. But I feel like
Speaker 1: a mixed diet variety is good, you know, like the
Speaker 1: the Inuit ate a super high fat diet in the
Speaker 1: past and needed it. Do they need it today? You know,
Speaker 1: where they're not expending as many calories. I guess it's
Speaker 1: a totally different setting, a totally different contexts. So context
Speaker 1: is important for what the healthiest diet is. I got
Speaker 1: one last one for you Arctic explorers and others that
Speaker 1: would get vitamin A poisoning from eating polar bear liver.
Speaker 1: The hell does that mean? So? Um, you can overdose
Speaker 1: on the fat saw able vitamins which are A, D, E,
Speaker 1: and K. You cannot overdose on the water soluble vitamins,
Speaker 1: which are all the others, B, C and the rest.
Speaker 1: So the fat soluble I'm not totally sure why that is,
Speaker 1: but you can't overdose on any of those. And we
Speaker 1: all are the fat soluble ones A, D, E, and K,
Speaker 1: and you can overdose on them. So you could overdose
Speaker 1: in vitamin D as well, and that could make your
Speaker 1: calcium go very high and cause a whole lot of
Speaker 1: problems and other things. But um, so yeah, you can.
Speaker 1: You know, a lot of animals store, especially fat soluble
Speaker 1: nutrients in the liver, and the polar bear happens to
Speaker 1: store a lot of vitamin A, so you can overdose
Speaker 1: on it if I don't know how much, if you know,
Speaker 1: eat a molecule of it, If you eat a tiny
Speaker 1: little portion of polar bail level, you'll probably be fine.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much the lethal dose would be
Speaker 1: down might be? And why do they have so much
Speaker 1: vitamin A in their like? Do they have a vitamin
Speaker 1: A rich diet from eating all the all the marine
Speaker 1: mammals or something. I'm I'm not totally sure, to be honest.
Speaker 1: I mean, they eat a lot of very high fat
Speaker 1: diet um as all animals in the architect do, I guess,
Speaker 1: but they so. I'm sure they get a lot of it. Uh,
Speaker 1: but I don't know why they need so much or
Speaker 1: why they store so much on their liver, to be honest.
Speaker 1: But it's the only animal I know of where there's
Speaker 1: that vitamin overdose danger. He's not here right now, but
Speaker 1: our colleague seth h large pelagics large pelagic fish for
Speaker 1: about thirty days in a row and got mercury poisoning,
Speaker 1: or got some mercury poisoning, do you believe him? Um,
Speaker 1: his hands went numb. I'm not totally sure what was
Speaker 1: his mercury level, like memory issues too issues. His wife's
Speaker 1: hands got nome. She didn't mention it to him until
Speaker 1: he mentioned it to her, and she's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I've had the same problem. Did he go crazy? You
Speaker 1: know that mad? Hatters mad? Because he was no, but
Speaker 1: he went well, a little bit crazy, he went a
Speaker 1: little bit seth. He's gonna be here for trivia if
Speaker 1: you want to talk about it, then I'm curious what
Speaker 1: his what the blood levels showed another doing that? Now
Speaker 1: he just laid off, But I had him over there
Speaker 1: night at some bitches digging back in blue fin tuna belly.
Speaker 1: So basically eating blue fin tuna fat sounds okay. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know a lot about it, but
Speaker 1: this guy's a cautious maybe in moderation, what insight can
Speaker 1: you provide on how a buck would taste different? Say
Speaker 1: you're hunting in Indiana. Peak rut is November twelve, you
Speaker 1: kill a buck on November twelve versus if you killed
Speaker 1: one on September one? Um, should those animals taste different
Speaker 1: like before the rut and during the rut? Yeah, like
Speaker 1: when when they're at like kind of a baseline of
Speaker 1: just have a very stable pattern of their hitting this
Speaker 1: cornfield every night. They're not chasing Doe's anything like that.
Speaker 1: Versus a buck who is rutting real hard in mid November. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess, and you're talking about just taste, not tenderness
Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, tenderness, taste anything. Well, I guess there's
Speaker 1: some thought about the hormones of the rut and what
Speaker 1: they can do to meet I guess. Do do the
Speaker 1: bucks lose weight also in the rut? Yeah? They kind
Speaker 1: of they throw caution to the wind, and they don't
Speaker 1: drink as much as they should, they don't eat as
Speaker 1: much as they should, they don't sleep as much as
Speaker 1: they should. Um. I would say it's like a stressor
Speaker 1: for them sort of because of the the activities they're
Speaker 1: participating in. Right. Well, I guess um I am also
Speaker 1: avoiding hunters at that period, right. I guess I've heard
Speaker 1: a lot about hormones, like, you know, just sort of
Speaker 1: the rut related hormones like testosterone and such versus the
Speaker 1: stressed out, running away and dying slowly hormones like adrenaline,
Speaker 1: cord is all other ones. I guess my understanding is,
Speaker 1: I don't that it's inconsistent in terms of I guess
Speaker 1: you guys would know more than I do about that,
Speaker 1: But it's inconsistent in terms of how it affects taste
Speaker 1: and tenderness UM. But I guess less fat, you know,
Speaker 1: intramuscular fat in particular or marbling um, contributes a lot
Speaker 1: to the quote unquote tenderness you feel in your mouth
Speaker 1: because you're biting through fat in addition of protein fibers um.
Speaker 1: So maybe losing less fat might affect the texture. Having
Speaker 1: less fat might affect the texture. I guess I'm not
Speaker 1: totally sure. I've heard meat scientists on this show and
Speaker 1: other shows talk about the role of hormones, and I
Speaker 1: guess I'm a little confused, and it seems inconsistent. How
Speaker 1: about specific to like the testicles. I've tried to take
Speaker 1: note of this, and I've never noticed a difference in
Speaker 1: taste between like a buck in September versus November versus January.
Speaker 1: Should I notice any taste or like texture difference with
Speaker 1: those when you're eating the bark nuts? Yeah, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: think so. I mean, there's a lot of those hormones
Speaker 1: are released into the blood stream, you know, there's not
Speaker 1: really a testosterone storage in the testicles, Unlike something like
Speaker 1: the thyroid, which has a lot of thyroid hormone stored
Speaker 1: in it ready to be released. The testicles just sort
Speaker 1: of released testosterone into the bloodstream. Um so I don't
Speaker 1: think that would you know, the hormone shouldn't. Should affect
Speaker 1: them the same it affects any other tissue that's being
Speaker 1: perfused by the testosterone containing blood. Testosterone is made in
Speaker 1: your testicle, is it? It is sperm is too? I get.
Speaker 1: Can can we speak about a bit about thyroid hormone?
Speaker 1: And then uh, what hormones you can and can't technically
Speaker 1: consume and why not? And then also like can you
Speaker 1: in the cooking process, like what what does that turn?
Speaker 1: I mean, do you like kill hormones when you cook meat? So? Sure,
Speaker 1: So there's this condition called hamburger thyroid toxicosis where you
Speaker 1: get dangerous or toxic dose of thyroid hormone in your hamburger.
Speaker 1: And there's some medical literature I read read a bunch
Speaker 1: of studies, Like in the eighties, I think it was
Speaker 1: in like Minnesota, Iowa, South Dakota area, there was a
Speaker 1: few slaughterhouses that were not dissecting the neck properly of
Speaker 1: the cows there slaughtering, and some thyroid tissue was ending
Speaker 1: up in the ground meat. And so if some of
Speaker 1: that ends up in the middle of the burger where
Speaker 1: you're cooking, at last, some of the thyroid hormone can
Speaker 1: survive intact to be swallowed by you. And unlike many
Speaker 1: horr armones, you can eat thyroid hormone. You know, many
Speaker 1: are broken down either in your intestines or by your
Speaker 1: liver before they get anywhere. But thyroid you can eat
Speaker 1: and it can arrive into your bloodstream intact and you
Speaker 1: know active, which is why um. You know, hormone replacement
Speaker 1: like thyroid replacement or pills, you can take them by mouth.
Speaker 1: And some people even take desiccated cow thyroid, which is
Speaker 1: literally dried cow's thyroid, and that provides you with the
Speaker 1: T three and T four um that you need to
Speaker 1: replace your underactive thyroid. So these so there was like
Speaker 1: an outbreak of thyroid, you know, high severe hyper thyroid
Speaker 1: ism to the point where makes your heart raise, makes
Speaker 1: you sweat, um, it makes you feel terrible horrible diarrhea
Speaker 1: and things like that. UM. And so that condition hamburger
Speaker 1: thyroid thyrotoxicosis is um you know, sort of well known,
Speaker 1: and it's actually also very common in dog chew toys
Speaker 1: because the gullet or the trait chea is often dried
Speaker 1: and given the dogs. It's just sort of toy and
Speaker 1: there's less oversight of the butchering process that goes to
Speaker 1: dog toys. Just like lungs, you know they're too dangerous
Speaker 1: for humans, but let the dogs eat them. So these
Speaker 1: two toys, there's actually often every few years like an
Speaker 1: outbreak of dogs getting hyper thyroidism. Well, how many hunters
Speaker 1: got to be grinding up a deer's thyroid? Probably a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean, but I butcher two deer earlier this week.
Speaker 1: Actually someone gave them to me and I was really
Speaker 1: looking in the neck. I could not find the thyroid.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's very small or what. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure, but maybe it's so small, or maybe just
Speaker 1: people cook it's not as bad as with beef. Maybe
Speaker 1: Spencer makes this raw deer dish that we've all eaten before.
Speaker 1: Are you are you being careful because maybe like I
Speaker 1: had the sweats after eating that would not say being
Speaker 1: careful in trying to not have neck meat in her
Speaker 1: now tiger meats real heavy on the Yeah, there's also
Speaker 1: like you know, certain species hormones can be active in
Speaker 1: the human while others are not. So it could be
Speaker 1: that dear thyroid hormone is not active in humans as
Speaker 1: cow is. I do not know. If so, you could
Speaker 1: be eating you could get a cow's hormones and then
Speaker 1: they run in your body and act on your body
Speaker 1: and you're acting. That would be like a great would
Speaker 1: be like a great defense. If testosterone would I like
Speaker 1: start like growing hair out of my face if I
Speaker 1: was eating like buck nuts during the rut or like
Speaker 1: sashimi buck nutsa's testosterone digests right, correct, It's not not
Speaker 1: digest in the gut, but is processed in the liver
Speaker 1: and actually mostly turned to estrogen made. Which is why
Speaker 1: people when people say, like I was at a testical
Speaker 1: cooking contest in Serbia and all the men super drunk
Speaker 1: or like yeah, we're you know, getting viril or whatever,
Speaker 1: you know, it's actually yeah, it's actually they're getting loaded
Speaker 1: with estrogen probably. But the other thing is, you know,
Speaker 1: if you've ever seen like commercial testosterone preparations, it's usually
Speaker 1: like a foam or an injection. It's rarely pills UM
Speaker 1: and the pharmaceutical companies trying to you know, they take
Speaker 1: the testosterone molecule and try to add on little molecular
Speaker 1: branches to it to try to make the liver not
Speaker 1: act on it as much. And there is one called
Speaker 1: methyl testosterone that doesn't get broken down the liver, but
Speaker 1: it severely injures your liver, so it's no good. Um.
Speaker 1: But that's that's one of the holy grails. You know,
Speaker 1: if you could find an orally active and safe testosterone preparation,
Speaker 1: that would be a big hit. UM. So estrogen and
Speaker 1: progesterone you can eat and get into your body right
Speaker 1: the pill. It's a pill because it arises into your bloodstream.
Speaker 1: Active testosterone really mostly comes in foams, transdermal and injections.
Speaker 1: For that reason. Cortisol is active, you could take it
Speaker 1: by mouth. Insulin is not, you know, you have to
Speaker 1: inject it. But pig insulin used to you know, pig
Speaker 1: and cow insulin used to be the treatment for diabetes
Speaker 1: type one. UM, but it would have to be injected obviously,
Speaker 1: And now we have bacteria in vats churning out true
Speaker 1: human insulince, so we don't need to extract it from
Speaker 1: Pacreas of animals anymore? Man? Yeah? Uh think that Spencer?
Speaker 1: Do you think the long thing will get changed? That's
Speaker 1: what I'm wondering, Like in your lifetime, are folks going
Speaker 1: to be sailing lungs? Well, if we start a petition,
Speaker 1: do you get money from the hagas industry? I have
Speaker 1: written to them saying I want to join forces, not
Speaker 1: expecting any not expecting any communeration. But who do you
Speaker 1: right when you want to get ahold of hagues? People?
Speaker 1: So I've spoken to to. One is the former kind
Speaker 1: of the U s d A secretary version in the UK,
Speaker 1: who I spoke to on the phone, and another guy
Speaker 1: just by email with one of his like secretaries who
Speaker 1: answers the email. I think he's might have been acting
Speaker 1: at that time in a similar capacity. But every time
Speaker 1: they come to the US they try to convince the
Speaker 1: U s d A to change the rule. I guess
Speaker 1: at this point they've just given up. They're selling the
Speaker 1: lung free haggas. I love it that there's someone out
Speaker 1: there that you could call and be like, hey, I
Speaker 1: want to talk to about this long deal in the US,
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, don't even get me started right,
Speaker 1: like someone that lives that problem. Yeah he was. He
Speaker 1: was in that tone. He was pissed about it. You know,
Speaker 1: he's like, well, the US gets upset when we know
Speaker 1: when we limit their food and drink exports or when
Speaker 1: we put extra rules on it. So why should they
Speaker 1: do that? And there's no evidence. And we've been eating
Speaker 1: this for generations in the UK, and we exported to
Speaker 1: many other countries. No one's ever reported a problem. You
Speaker 1: know how you need on your side the bottom of
Speaker 1: the horseshoe. Those folks are loudy extremists. Oh yeah. You
Speaker 1: get a bunch of hippies, a bunch of crazy right wingers,
Speaker 1: and you say, like say to the hippies, like, listen,
Speaker 1: it's all natural, man, it's as long as it's natural.
Speaker 1: And you go to the and you go to the
Speaker 1: other room. You'd like the government over each bro, who's
Speaker 1: the government telling you what to eat? Nothing bad has
Speaker 1: ever happened by putting radicals, by giving him a lot
Speaker 1: of power. Well no, I got him two separate rooms. Okay.
Speaker 1: He goes into the one room and brings says like,
Speaker 1: why why is the garment? Tell us about to eat? Man?
Speaker 1: We should eat more of this. If they're saying not
Speaker 1: to you go to the hippies, it's you switch your hat.
Speaker 1: It's all natural. Yeah, and mentioned the pharmaceutic of companies
Speaker 1: that both sides and you get this problem, takeing care
Speaker 1: of and then the hagues people will pay all the money.
Speaker 1: I'm not right. There is. There's usually some green. It's
Speaker 1: usually lungs, heart and liver, ground up stuff into the
Speaker 1: stomach and also mixed with um some kind of green
Speaker 1: sounds lish. Oh, we can't forget to talk about an
Speaker 1: enemy eats. Yes, well that's the last thing I was
Speaker 1: gonna do, is letting plug his stuff. Yes, talk about
Speaker 1: anatomy eats. Um. So, Anatomy Eats is kind of a
Speaker 1: dinner series that I started with one particular chef that
Speaker 1: I now worked with several different chefs, where we sort
Speaker 1: of one chef jealous when you did that. No, it was,
Speaker 1: I mean he's moved on to other things as well,
Speaker 1: but he I mean we're still sort of working together.
Speaker 1: We did a dinner about a year ago in Philly,
Speaker 1: so he I had heard he's a friend who's also
Speaker 1: chef and Philly. He had done a heart uh course
Speaker 1: at the Philly Free Public Library which has this great
Speaker 1: culinary space where they do um classes and cookbook authors
Speaker 1: come through and do sessions there as well on their
Speaker 1: you know, publicity tours. And so he was telling me
Speaker 1: how he did a course on the heart, and I
Speaker 1: was saying, oh, did you point out the valves and
Speaker 1: the coronary arteries and the different ventricles and atria, And
Speaker 1: he said, no, why don't you come do that next time?
Speaker 1: And so so we did. We ended up doing a
Speaker 1: dinner at a series of dinners at the library, did
Speaker 1: a cardiovascular system dinner where we served we served three
Speaker 1: species of heart cooked in three different ways. We served
Speaker 1: some blood sausage and blood cookies, which are sort of
Speaker 1: like whipped like meringue. Blood has a similar albumen profile
Speaker 1: to egg whites. You can kind of whip it, though
Speaker 1: it doesn't maintain its form as well, but it does
Speaker 1: to some extent. And bone marrow of course, where all
Speaker 1: the blood cells come from. Then we did a digestive
Speaker 1: system dinner where we did we serve tongue, and I
Speaker 1: talked about how digestion starts in the mouth. We served
Speaker 1: liver like a liver sausage with intestinal casing, and tripe
Speaker 1: and then finally we did a muscular skeletal dinner where
Speaker 1: we served like a tendon soup or now puffed tendon
Speaker 1: where it's sort of cooked and then thrown in hot
Speaker 1: oil and puffs up. Um, a bone broth soup, and
Speaker 1: two kinds of muscle cuts. One that was sort of
Speaker 1: you know, good for steaks, where you could cook it
Speaker 1: high dry heat, flip it over like a steak and
Speaker 1: eat it, versus one that required slow cooking, and we
Speaker 1: talked about connective tissue and things like that. And the
Speaker 1: steak cut was the skirt steak, which is of course
Speaker 1: the diaphragm, the main breathing muscle. Um. So then and
Speaker 1: then since I've done, you know, for each dish, I
Speaker 1: talked about the anatomy and physiology. I kind of talk
Speaker 1: about what's going on inside the people who are listening
Speaker 1: talk about their anatomy and how it relates to what
Speaker 1: they're eating. Gives some anecdotes from my medical practice, sometimes
Speaker 1: sort of gross ones. But you know, people who are
Speaker 1: coming to this dinner, you know, it's self selecting for
Speaker 1: people who are going to be okay with that. And um,
Speaker 1: so since then I don't didn't a dinner in d C,
Speaker 1: did a dinner in um Oxford, Mississippi with two great chefs,
Speaker 1: and did a dinner at a fourth dinner in Philly. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's kind of exploring your own anatomy, understand ending
Speaker 1: how your own body works through eating oh fual and
Speaker 1: internal organs. You charge for that, Yes, it tends to
Speaker 1: be a little fancy. The one in d C was
Speaker 1: a Halloween theme. I was right around the hot time
Speaker 1: of Halloween and they did a drink pairings with each dish. Um.
Speaker 1: But the Halloween theme was fun because we got to
Speaker 1: talk about like mummies and how making a mummy from
Speaker 1: human flesh is basically the same as making charcuterie, just
Speaker 1: longer time spam. That's awesome. So how do people find
Speaker 1: out if they want to go to an anatomy Eats.
Speaker 1: You guys got a website, Yeah, anatomy eats dot com,
Speaker 1: anatomy eats at anatomy Eats on Instagram and Twitter and TikTok. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know about little dances about it? Should there
Speaker 1: is there a special room in the back where you
Speaker 1: get to eat some lung, Like secretly, we did think
Speaker 1: about doing like an underground lung dinner, Like maybe people
Speaker 1: could buy shares in the lungs and sell. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: we've thought about underground lung dinners and things like that,
Speaker 1: but yeah, well you could probably do it where like
Speaker 1: if people are I talked to a game ward and
Speaker 1: about this, I'm definitely not you know, like a proponent
Speaker 1: of it. But it's like if you attend one of
Speaker 1: these dinners, you're paying for let's say, like the other dishes,
Speaker 1: but like the lung could be potentially served in a
Speaker 1: way whereby like you, I think people do that, but
Speaker 1: you're getting a little cute that's kind of like a
Speaker 1: little cute. It's kind of like the da you're getting
Speaker 1: like oh no, no, no no, no, I didn't sell them
Speaker 1: that parted. Yeah, but when they walk in. There was
Speaker 1: businesses in New York City that we're doing that with
Speaker 1: marijuana that you could get it delivered to you, but
Speaker 1: you'd pay them like a hunter Bucks, right, um, and
Speaker 1: they would bring you like a candy bar, and then
Speaker 1: for free they would give you, you know, like a
Speaker 1: bryl exactly, a little baggy. Tell people about your books. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So my my first book, The Unseen Body, came out
Speaker 1: about a year ago. Um, and it's kind of exploration
Speaker 1: of the human body, um, tying tying it into my
Speaker 1: training as a medical student, my medical career, uh, my
Speaker 1: interest in food. Some of these Anatomy Eats topics show
Speaker 1: up in there as well, like the lungs and how
Speaker 1: I came to like liver, a lot of travel as well.
Speaker 1: Great story of me getting horrible diarrhe in India, which
Speaker 1: should be a bathroom scene in every memoir, I think, um,
Speaker 1: and uh, yeah, that's how we got on fresh airbitary growth.
Speaker 1: Very grateful for that. And um, my next book I
Speaker 1: think will be along the lines of Anatomy Eats, probably
Speaker 1: just sort of an exploration of anatomy through food that's
Speaker 1: eaten and prepared in different ways all over the world,
Speaker 1: kind of I imagine the table of contents will look
Speaker 1: like a medical textbook, similarly like Cardiovascular dinner digest sorry,
Speaker 1: cardiovascular system digestives, the endocrine system, reproductive system, and then
Speaker 1: just sort of an exploration of all the different body
Speaker 1: parts and how they are cooked throughout the world. And
Speaker 1: your books are on Amazon obviously, books on Amazon. Dr
Speaker 1: Jonathan Riceman, author of hit the title Again The Unseen
Speaker 1: Body that came out about a year ago. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was kind of. Actually one of my favorite books of
Speaker 1: all time, which I've heard you talked about two is
Speaker 1: Arctic Dreams by Barry Lopez and I My idea of
Speaker 1: writing the book was to do an Arctic Dreams where
Speaker 1: it's an exploration of not the Arctic but the human body.
Speaker 1: So that's what I that's what I tried to do.
Speaker 1: I tried to emulate Barry Lopez, one of my favorite writers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's great man, a body man. On the other days,
Speaker 1: I had recommended it to him and he sent me
Speaker 1: about how blown away was by his passage on Polar Bears,
Speaker 1: which is astounding. So good. All right, thanks coming on
Speaker 1: the show, Maan, you're gonna stick around for trivia? Yes?
Speaker 1: Are you canna throw up a bone? Yes? M hmm.
Speaker 1: It seems unnecessary. I think he's going to do really well.
Speaker 1: If you have doctor in front of your name, you
Speaker 1: shouldn't get a get a bone thrown to you. Your
Speaker 1: whole life's been a bone thrown to you. Come on,
Speaker 1: what kind of bone are you throw You'd love it
Speaker 1: if you had doctor in front of your name. Dr Steve,
Speaker 1: question to me, question three? Only detail I'll give you
Speaker 1: stay two for trivia, where I beat Dr Jonathan Riceman
Speaker 1: soundly despite the bone and Brody. I thought a good
Speaker 1: joke about Brody and I was making my kids breakfast
Speaker 1: this morning. Did they think it was funny? Well, no,
Speaker 1: because you're doing pretty good on the scoreboard, you know,
Speaker 1: like that turn of the reigning champion. I was think
Speaker 1: about how you're the waning champion. Listen. It's we got
Speaker 1: all year to square things up. Man, I'm not waiting champion.
Speaker 1: That's so funny. Thanks. Yeah,