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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie, and you're listening to stuff I've

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Speaker 1: never told you. For this episode, we are joined by

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Speaker 1: son of Vashi. Thank you so much for joining us.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for having me. Did you tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about yourself and what you do? Totally. I am

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Speaker 1: a freelance journalist in Atlanta and I write about all

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Speaker 1: kinds of things here like crime or housing, uh, sometimes race,

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Speaker 1: which is what I'm here to talk about today because

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Speaker 1: I'm Asian American. My parents were immigrants from India, and

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Speaker 1: I thought it would be a great idea for the

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Speaker 1: show to talk about. Yes, and I very much agreed

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Speaker 1: when we first You're a bit of a name around town.

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Speaker 1: It is for me. I'm always looking for a cool

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Speaker 1: ladies in Atlanta I can hook up with, not in

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Speaker 1: that way talk to uh. And I had heard from

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Speaker 1: a bunch of friends that you were someone that I

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Speaker 1: should talk to. And then when I reached out to you,

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Speaker 1: you had all of these ideas and I was like everyone, everyone, everyone,

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about all of those things, Um,

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Speaker 1: but this, I think this is a great one. I

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Speaker 1: think it's something that is missing from our massive archive.

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Speaker 1: And I'm so happy to have you here today to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Yeah, yeah, And so we're going to

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Speaker 1: be looking into questions of Asian American identity, what that

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Speaker 1: means and how it's changed. And this means we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be talking about some history, some stereotypes, media representation in politics.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a a lot to cover, um, but

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Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna cover it. We're gonna do it

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Speaker 1: before we dive in. Though. Here's a number for you

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Speaker 1: for you listeners to show where we are. There are

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Speaker 1: nineteen point five million Asian Americans in the United States

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Speaker 1: and that is six percent of the population and it's

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Speaker 1: so the fastest growing minority group in the country for now.

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Speaker 1: Recent movies and shows like Crazy Rich Asians and Fresh

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Speaker 1: off the Boat have given Asian Americans a lot more

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Speaker 1: visibility and mainstream culture in the last few years too.

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Speaker 1: And like many racial groups, they're extremely diverse and have

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Speaker 1: different histories. You know, for example, what a lot of

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Speaker 1: people think about when they take of Asian Americans as

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Speaker 1: people who recently immigrated to the United States, maybe only

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Speaker 1: in the last few decades, but other Asian American groups

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Speaker 1: have been here for centuries. Yes, And that is a

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Speaker 1: good segue to talk about some history. So I, as

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Speaker 1: listeners of the show probably know, I'm a huge and

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Speaker 1: of talking about history. I love history, and I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to better understand the factors that play in

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Speaker 1: this conversation around Asian American identity, and history does play

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Speaker 1: a significant role in shaping our ideas around identity. And

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about Asian immigration to the United States,

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Speaker 1: the history is typically broken down into two main waves,

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Speaker 1: which when you first start explaining this to me, I

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Speaker 1: was like, I thought we were talking about the first

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Speaker 1: and second wave of feminism. But there are two main

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Speaker 1: waves of Asian American Asian immigration to the United States.

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Speaker 1: Lots of ways, it's just a lot of ocean imagery.

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Speaker 1: I do like ocean imagery calms me down when I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to sleep at night. I have a white noise

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Speaker 1: machine waves Wow. Indeed, so the history is obviously going

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Speaker 1: to be very condensed. But here we go. Here's some basics.

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Speaker 1: If we look at the first wave, some of the

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Speaker 1: first Asians to come to America were Filipino sailors. Towards

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Speaker 1: the end of the fifteen hundreds and half died on

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Speaker 1: the journey. Of those that survived, most did not want

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Speaker 1: to make the return trip over the Pacific. I wouldn't either,

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Speaker 1: so they stayed. If we jump ahead, more Asian immigrants

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Speaker 1: arrived in the seventeen hundreds and eighteen hundreds, and many

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Speaker 1: instances fleeing from poor situations as a result of colonialism.

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Speaker 1: But often what they escaped to was indentured servitude on

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Speaker 1: tobacco and sugar plantations in the British West Indies, Hawaii,

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Speaker 1: and the southern United States. They were tricks and lied

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Speaker 1: to to make these dangerous journeys and then take on

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Speaker 1: these difficult, often dangerous jobs for five years before they

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Speaker 1: gained freedom. These indentured laborers, called coolies, were mostly men,

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Speaker 1: but some women were hired, mostly as a way to

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Speaker 1: keep the men from outright revolting because there were no women.

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Speaker 1: After these five years were up, many stayed, either out

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Speaker 1: of shame at their earnings or because they had married

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Speaker 1: a local who could not or would not make the

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Speaker 1: journey back. And speaking of difficult jobs, if we look

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Speaker 1: at the gold Rush in California, a lot of Asian immigrants,

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Speaker 1: particularly Chinese immigrants, found employment working on the construction of

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Speaker 1: railroads in that state. As more and more arrived, they

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Speaker 1: were harshly discriminated against called swine rats or beast and

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Speaker 1: sidebar that I found super interesting, but there's no time

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Speaker 1: to include it in this episode. During this time, laundry

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Speaker 1: was very expensive in San Francisco, so much so that

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Speaker 1: it was cheaper to send your clothes to Honolulu to

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Speaker 1: get them washed. That blows my mind. Chinese immigrants saw

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Speaker 1: an opportunity and they went for it, and this was

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Speaker 1: an industry that they were allowed to have success in,

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Speaker 1: not so for other industries. As a result of the

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Speaker 1: influx of Chinese immigrants and fears of that the cheap

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Speaker 1: labor force that they provided to less than scrupulous employers,

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Speaker 1: fears that this labor force was undercutting the wage of

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Speaker 1: white Americans, the Supreme Court passed the Chinese Exclusion Act

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Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty two, which prohibited low skilled and family

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Speaker 1: immigration from that country. This law wasn't repealed until nine

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Speaker 1: and is, in the words of Too Young Fun, the

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Speaker 1: only federal law ever to exclude a group of people

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Speaker 1: by nationality. Some of this might sound disturbingly familiar. As

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Speaker 1: part of this law, the government deployed quote Chinese catchers

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Speaker 1: to the Mexican US border, and the Secretary of Labor

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Speaker 1: set of the issue. Not even a Chinese wall would

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Speaker 1: stop immigrants from China, and it is so wild it

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Speaker 1: is it's disturbingly familiar. In eight seventy one, the largest

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Speaker 1: mass lynching in American history took place in Los Angeles

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Speaker 1: when a mob of five hundred murdered seventeen Chinese men,

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Speaker 1: and a couple of years later, Kaiser Wilhelm awoke from

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Speaker 1: a bad dream and then obviously requested a painting be

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Speaker 1: done depicting the archangel Michael terrorized by a vicious mob

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Speaker 1: of Easterners, perfectly exemplifying the Yellow Peril as it was called.

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Speaker 1: And we've spoken before about how in Western society Asian

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Speaker 1: men and Eastern culture at large was and often is

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Speaker 1: portrayed as a feminine, a k A weaker. Take this

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Speaker 1: quote from the president of the American Federation of Labor

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Speaker 1: at the time. From the fact that Chinese people lived

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Speaker 1: in America meet versus Rice, American manhood versus Asiatic julism,

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Speaker 1: you can see the sentiment swell in times of perceived

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Speaker 1: economic threat by an Asian country or countries, like during

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Speaker 1: the eighties with Japan's technological prowess. If you watch pretty

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Speaker 1: much any eighties romantic comedy, you'll know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: And I um also side note on the other show

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Speaker 1: that I do, which is all about food and drink

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Speaker 1: Um Savor. We did an episode on tea and I

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Speaker 1: ran across an idea that I didn't get more into,

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Speaker 1: but I would love to. But the work I was

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Speaker 1: reading the authors suggested that the reason tea is feminized

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Speaker 1: as more of something that lady like tea time um

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Speaker 1: is because it came from the East, as opposed to coffee,

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Speaker 1: which was more like man gender drinks. You can't uh

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Speaker 1: not gender anything in the entire history of the world.

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Speaker 1: We have to gender everything. It's true. I want to

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Speaker 1: do a whole mini series whiskey beer. Lighter drinks are

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Speaker 1: for women, Darker drinks are for men. Um future future

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Speaker 1: research required. Chinese immigrants were the largest group of Asian

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Speaker 1: immigrants at the time, and thus perceived as the most threatening,

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Speaker 1: But this was not the only group of Asian immigrants

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Speaker 1: arriving to the United States, and not, of course, unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: the only one to be negatively stereotyped. The United States

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Speaker 1: Immigration Commission deemed Indians as the quote least desirable race

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Speaker 1: of immigrants in nineteen eleven, after the editor of Washington's

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Speaker 1: Bellingham Reveal called Hindus quote repulsive an appearance and discussing

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Speaker 1: in their manners, the town mobbed together there to quote

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Speaker 1: drive out the Hindus over the course of a night

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Speaker 1: in nineteen or seven, and they were successful. Around this time,

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Speaker 1: we start seeing some laws and policy relevant to this

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Speaker 1: conversation popping up across the country. There was the California

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Speaker 1: Alien Land Law of nineteen thirteen, which was designed to

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Speaker 1: prevent Asians from competing with white businesses and farms. And

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Speaker 1: then there's my favorite, uh splash, most terrifying UM Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court ruling in three that defined what racist basically and

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Speaker 1: limited who could become a natural citizen, which is where

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Speaker 1: an Indian seek man named Bugget sing Tin, who had

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Speaker 1: served in the US Army during World War One, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to become a citizen, so he tried and failed

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Speaker 1: in his case reached the Supreme Court, which had decided

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Speaker 1: in another case that being white men being Caucasian, so

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Speaker 1: Mr Tinn argued that he too was Caucasian because he

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Speaker 1: was Arian. Kids Arians have conquered India and then fifteen

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Speaker 1: hundreds and since he belonged to a high cast in India,

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Speaker 1: but the Supreme Court decided that, given the common understanding

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Speaker 1: of race in the United States, Tim couldn't be white

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Speaker 1: because there had been too much quote unquote racial mixing

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Speaker 1: between different people uh in India. So what that meant

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Speaker 1: was that South Asians couldn't become naturalized citizens for a

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Speaker 1: few decades after that. Yeah, and I think I mentioned

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Speaker 1: to you earlier because my brain is strange sometimes, but

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Speaker 1: I was somehow I've become an expert on spam. Don't

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Speaker 1: ask me how what this has happened. And one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that spam it's still popular in Hawaii and

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Speaker 1: um other parts of South Asia is because of World

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Speaker 1: War Two, but also laws like this where um there

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Speaker 1: was a law put in place that Japanese fisherman couldn't

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Speaker 1: can Basically it didn't say this, but it was to

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Speaker 1: limit the competition with American fisherman that they couldn't they

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Speaker 1: could only fish within like a mile radius or something.

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Speaker 1: And that is why that spam is so popular in Hawaii,

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Speaker 1: for instance, spam asuvi. And also it is an interesting

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Speaker 1: culmination of different ingredients because there was all this spam

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Speaker 1: from World War two that was on the island and

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Speaker 1: all of these immigrants who were there as well, and

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Speaker 1: the cuisine kind of adopted spam in a way that

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Speaker 1: is very delicious. And when I a lot of people

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Speaker 1: I know, including me, for a long time, just thought

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Speaker 1: of spams like this growth, like it comes out and

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Speaker 1: it stays in the shape, even it's like a solider

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Speaker 1: wid exactly. You've got a lot of questions about what's

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Speaker 1: going on, what should I do with it? But it

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Speaker 1: has really been adopted in the cuisine there, and I

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Speaker 1: would put forth that it is pretty good. All right,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go look up some spam recipes after this.

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Speaker 1: Oh you should. If I can convert one person. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why, I don't know how this has happened. Well,

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Speaker 1: we'll open the trendy span restaurant. Will be great. Don't

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Speaker 1: even joke about it. I would do it. I would

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Speaker 1: do it. Not hurt beat alright, But going back to

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Speaker 1: depressing laws. A year later, in an American policy was

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Speaker 1: passed with the goal of quote preserving the idea of

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Speaker 1: American homogenity that pretty much disallowed non whites from immigrating

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Speaker 1: to the United States. All immigration from Asia was outlawed

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Speaker 1: with the creation of the Asiatic Bard Zone. And this

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Speaker 1: was of course swiftly followed by the interment of Japanese

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Speaker 1: Americans during and after World War Two, and about a

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty thousand Japanese Americans were interned during that time,

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Speaker 1: which is a really substantial number even for now. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and this was followed by the second wave of Asian

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Speaker 1: immigration to the United States. The Cold War we have

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Speaker 1: to talk about the Old War in this conversation shifted

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Speaker 1: American focus and fears elsewhere, especially for Asian nations not

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Speaker 1: viewed as threats. The Civil Rights Movement led to President

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Speaker 1: Lyndon B. Johnson signing nineteen six Immigration and Nationality Act,

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Speaker 1: which got rid of racial quotas and made room for

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Speaker 1: skills and family based immigration. However, we should keep in

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Speaker 1: mind this wasn't done with Asians in mind, but rather

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Speaker 1: vocal and annoyed Northern Europeans. This act, of course impacted

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Speaker 1: the type of immigrants that came to the United States

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Speaker 1: and made way for some stereotypes that we're going to

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Speaker 1: get into later. Whatever the case, Asians immigrated to the

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Speaker 1: United States all the same, resulting in the second wave

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Speaker 1: of Asian immigrants and in the mind of Erica Lee,

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Speaker 1: author of the Making of Asian America History, creating too

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Speaker 1: often discordant Asian America's After the events at Tinaman Square,

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Speaker 1: the US enacted the Chinese Student Protection Act in and

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Speaker 1: that meant that green cards were given to Chinese immigrants,

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Speaker 1: which also contributed to this whole second wave. And that

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Speaker 1: more or less brings us to today, to these discordant

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Speaker 1: Asian Americas and two questions around identity and stereotypes. But

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Speaker 1: first it brings us to a quick break for a

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Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, m and we're back, thank you, sponsor.

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Speaker 1: So another piece of this conversation is stereotypes, where they

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Speaker 1: come from, how they shape how we view people and

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Speaker 1: ourselves and our identity, and how they impact everything on

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Speaker 1: a societal level. And I know we've talked about it before,

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Speaker 1: but policies get made, laws get enacted based on representation,

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Speaker 1: what we see in the media, and stereotypes. It's out.

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Speaker 1: Let's get into it. One of the first ones that

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Speaker 1: we wanted to talk about was the model minority. I

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Speaker 1: think that's like the most pervasive one for sure, in

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Speaker 1: a variety of different ways. You know, it's not just

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Speaker 1: like this is like a term that was coined that

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Speaker 1: means that Asians are often pointed to as being the

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Speaker 1: group that seemingly high performing academically and soci economically. And

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Speaker 1: so you hear, you know, the smart Asian, the doctor

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Speaker 1: or engineer Asian, these sorts of things that sounds like

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Speaker 1: really good and positive stereotypes. But it's often used to

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Speaker 1: deny the existence of structural racism among not only Asian

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Speaker 1: Americans but also other non white people, and it's really

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Speaker 1: harmful for that reason. I think, you know, most often

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Speaker 1: it's used to imply, either explicitly or implicitly, that black

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Speaker 1: and Hispanic people are not working hard, because if you

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Speaker 1: know Asian Americans can do so well, then clearly other

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Speaker 1: groups are not working that hard. But um, you know,

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Speaker 1: add that to the tiger moms stereotype that Asian parents

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Speaker 1: restricter than other parents or make their kids work harder. Uh,

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Speaker 1: and you get this myth of Asian exceptionalism. And that's

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Speaker 1: not supported by the disaggregated data that you look at.

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Speaker 1: So you know, if you control for education, the Asian

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Speaker 1: wage gap advantage disappears. Asian Americans are the most economically

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Speaker 1: divided racial group in the country. So you know, Asians

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Speaker 1: overall rank as the high stranding group, but if you

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Speaker 1: break that out by ethnicity, it shows a wide range

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Speaker 1: of incomes. And for example, Chinese Americans have a very

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Speaker 1: high income overall, but the top earners are really shrouding

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Speaker 1: the fact that there is a high rate of poverty

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Speaker 1: among Chinese Americans. And you know, depending on the different ethnicity,

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Speaker 1: it can depend on the reasons different immgrant groups came

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Speaker 1: to the United States in the first place. Now this

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Speaker 1: is true for every racial group. You can disaggregate Hispanics,

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Speaker 1: black people, white people and show differences based on ethnicity,

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Speaker 1: but it's just so staggering among Asians. So you know,

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Speaker 1: sevent of Indian Americans, many who came under the H

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Speaker 1: one V VISA program as highly schooled workers, have a

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Speaker 1: college degree. But that's only true for a third of

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Speaker 1: Vietnamese Americans, many who came as refugees from the Vietnam War,

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Speaker 1: and more than one in three Burmese Americans and Boutanies

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Speaker 1: Americans are in poverty. And even those who are successful,

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Speaker 1: particularly those who came as highly school workers, face stomach racism.

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Speaker 1: I think you were talking about the bamboo ceiling, right, Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I found that term when I was reading about Fortune

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Speaker 1: and their five top companies, um only three percent of

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Speaker 1: those are run by Asians. And it's really interesting that

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Speaker 1: you see this discrimination even at the highest level, because

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Speaker 1: there's also evidence of discrimination and hiring practices. So researchers

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Speaker 1: at Ryerson University in the University of Toronto found that

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Speaker 1: job applicants with Chinese, Indian, or Pakistani sounding names were

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Speaker 1: twenty eight percent less likely to get called back for

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Speaker 1: an interview. And that's something that also affects other non

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Speaker 1: minorities too. Yeah. Yeah, is this this model minority thing?

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Speaker 1: Is that something that you experienced personally? Oh? Totally. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I think there's a definitely like a sense that if

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Speaker 1: you're doing well in school in your Asia is just

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Speaker 1: like because you're Asian, And I mean, I think there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of different things going on there. Maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a stereotype, for example, of Indian Americans particularly, but

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Speaker 1: Asian Americans generally doing really well in spelling bees. I

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Speaker 1: don't know if you've ever watched the National Spelling be

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Speaker 1: but there's always just like a very cute Asian kid

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Speaker 1: who wins missed the time, and like I definitely was

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Speaker 1: also in the spelling be so like some stereotypes may

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Speaker 1: be true, but clearly like that's not what happened. You know,

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Speaker 1: my dad was an immigrant under this like h ONNBVS

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Speaker 1: A program, and so that's a very different than being

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Speaker 1: an immigrant under different types of circumstances. And I think

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Speaker 1: success um and is definitely driven by a lot of

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Speaker 1: these different histories. Yeah. I I've been speaking a lot

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Speaker 1: to two friends of mine because I recently did UM

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Speaker 1: an episode around first UM first generation immigrants, and just

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Speaker 1: hearing this this pressure that they felt to represent their

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Speaker 1: country and their religion, um I kind of pushed them

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Speaker 1: to to do things, and like they felt that they

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Speaker 1: had to perform at a level that was really high,

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Speaker 1: and that their parents would push them to do that

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Speaker 1: as well, because it was like we we're representing our

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Speaker 1: whole country totally, totally. I mean, you know, there's this

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Speaker 1: really great piece that was published recently in BuzzFeed about

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Speaker 1: immigrant debt and this idea that like, um you like,

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Speaker 1: so many people who are first generation Americans feel indebted

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Speaker 1: to the sacrifices that their parents made coming to this

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Speaker 1: country in the first place, and you know, up ending everything,

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Speaker 1: coming without money or knowing anyone, um, and just making

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Speaker 1: this really difficult journey and then like that their kids

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Speaker 1: are just like okay, well, like how do I honor

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Speaker 1: that sacrifice? Even though I don't want to, you know,

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Speaker 1: do the job that my parents want me to do

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Speaker 1: or like do you know going to acathemia or going

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Speaker 1: to being a doctor or whatever, like I want to

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Speaker 1: be like a journalist bum like myself. For you know,

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Speaker 1: I think there's this like a definite pressure that comes

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Speaker 1: with wanting to acknowledge and and honor your parents. Uh

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Speaker 1: and you know, being the only one in a in

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Speaker 1: a classroom or workplace that looks like you, I think

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Speaker 1: definitely contributes to that. Yeah, um, do you mind if

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Speaker 1: I ask how how your parents that you're going to

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Speaker 1: still sault dealing with it like several years after the fact,

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Speaker 1: but I think they've we've we've reached a a what's

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Speaker 1: what's the word detan I would call it, especially because

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Speaker 1: in freelance, they they just think like that. For a while,

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Speaker 1: I thought I was unemployed, and I was like no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I'm just like very employed, and just like buy a

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Speaker 1: lot of different people and they're like you don't go

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Speaker 1: into an office. What are you doing every day? I

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Speaker 1: think it's a big ski. I don't I don't know

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Speaker 1: what they think I'm doing for money, but they've they've

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Speaker 1: definitely approached it with suspicion. Yeah. Yeah, I my parents

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Speaker 1: still tell people like, I'm basically I'm not sure what

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Speaker 1: she does. Yeah, exactly. So very honoring to hear that.

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Speaker 1: Something else we have to talk about, UM is exoticizing,

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Speaker 1: our fetishizing of Asian women, because I would wager that

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Speaker 1: when I say fetish, two things come to mind. One

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Speaker 1: is foot fetish and the other is Asian fetish, Asian

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Speaker 1: woman fetish. Yeah, it is a huge part of being

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Speaker 1: Asian American and being woman or woman presenting in this country.

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Speaker 1: And um, I think there is uh, you know, particularly

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Speaker 1: with Asian women with East and Southeast Asian heritage. UM,

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Speaker 1: I think our fetishizers being you know, submissive, it's extremely

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Speaker 1: sexual or other stereotypes that are really damaging. UM. And

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Speaker 1: and like being fetishized mite so much a good thing,

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Speaker 1: but I think for most women, like we know it's

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Speaker 1: not and you know, con signal how Asian and another

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Speaker 1: non white women are authorised and stereotyped and they are

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Speaker 1: just seen as this like object or thing or non

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Speaker 1: human entity. Yeah, because it's really dehumanizing. I have UM.

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Speaker 1: I have a friend who is online dating and she

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Speaker 1: is Asian, and she tells me that she has a

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Speaker 1: couple of rules, and one is if someone asks her

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Speaker 1: where you're from, but where really where you're from, she's

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Speaker 1: immediately note goodbye, um. And another is that it's not

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Speaker 1: really rule. But she's just as very nervous about people, um,

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Speaker 1: particularly white men who it seems that they've just dated

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Speaker 1: Asian women. That's a huge red flag. I mean particularly

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Speaker 1: with white men too. I would say, like when of

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Speaker 1: dated whitemen the past, it's been like, have you only

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Speaker 1: dated Asian women? Because it's a huge problem. But also

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Speaker 1: in mind the only like non white person you've ever dated,

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Speaker 1: because it's also a problem. I don't want to be either.

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Speaker 1: The two things you have to have had like one

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Speaker 1: like your past that like okay, but lets this makes

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Speaker 1: me feel better, like I'm not like the first one,

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Speaker 1: but also not like the eighth one. Exactly. You get

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Speaker 1: a balance. You got to find that balance. I love

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Speaker 1: hearing people's personal dating rules, and I I would love

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Speaker 1: to do a whole episode that's just like tell me

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Speaker 1: your dating rules and why that would be great, I

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Speaker 1: think be fascinating. But this whole fetishizing of Asian women

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Speaker 1: is colloquially called yellow fever and also rice queens, when

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Speaker 1: queer men fetishize Asian men, and we see this everywhere

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Speaker 1: in our culture. It was even a bit in one

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Speaker 1: of comedian Amy Schumer's stand up routines. She said, quote,

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Speaker 1: I can't compete with an Asian chip because punchline, they

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Speaker 1: have small vaginas. That's how omnipresent this feci is in

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Speaker 1: our culture. It is a joke, yeah, and it's it's

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Speaker 1: hamered home in all types of media. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you ever watched anime or manga, which like most women

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Speaker 1: in there are even hyper sexualized, and that's off that's

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Speaker 1: from an Asian country, Japan. You know, there are a

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Speaker 1: lot of things contributing to this and it has real

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Speaker 1: world effects. A study conducted by the dating app Are

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Speaker 1: You Interested found that Asian women were the most desirable group,

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Speaker 1: not just among white men, but all men except Asian men. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think I think the study found out like almost

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Speaker 1: every group preferred different races, but for some reason, Asian

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Speaker 1: women were the most desirable, but the study I think

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Speaker 1: you found was less than rigorous, right, yeah uh. And

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Speaker 1: there are also findings from Okay Cupid as sociologist sociologist

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Speaker 1: named Kevin Lewis, and he found that all groups prefer

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Speaker 1: to strike camp a conversation with someone of their own race,

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Speaker 1: all except Asian women again that preferred messaging white men.

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Speaker 1: A Psychology Today article looking at this phenomena, I've found

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Speaker 1: that a lot of non Asian men held a belief

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Speaker 1: about Asian women that they are submissive, particularly when it

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Speaker 1: comes to sex. As one respondent put it, quote, women

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Speaker 1: want a princess in public and a horror in the bedroom.

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Speaker 1: Simple as that. They're just not asking a lot. They

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Speaker 1: just want princess public and the great words of ussher

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Speaker 1: freaking cheets, lady lady in the streets from the bed.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah. And it's not even Usher, it's somebody else,

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Speaker 1: but it's an US your song. I know much about

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Speaker 1: pop culture. I want to say it's a little John's first,

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Speaker 1: so that I could be If I'm wrong on that,

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Speaker 1: it'll be very embarrassing. We'll flag that to come back correction.

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Speaker 1: And there are centuries of history and culture that have

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Speaker 1: gone into the construction of the stereotype. Starting with the

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Speaker 1: opening of trade but tween Asia and Europe, so art

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Speaker 1: depicting gisha's made its way to Europe that would then

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Speaker 1: be highly sexualized for the Western Mail. And I was

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Speaker 1: reading an essay about this, and I think it is

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Speaker 1: worth bringing up. Just remember that the Western Mail at

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Speaker 1: this time was living in a very repressive sexually culture. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know women women as well, like that, they all

430
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: everyone was not allowed to openly express sexual desire. It

431
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,639
Speaker 1: was very frowned upon. You would go to hell like

432
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: it was frightening, Like we laugh about it now, but yeah,

433
00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: women didn't show their ankles. Um, so this new this

434
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: art is coming in that isn't so covering up and hot,

435
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: shying away from the human body. Uh. And then if

436
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: we move away, I'll move forward a little bit to

437
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:04,400
Speaker 1: French author here Loti pens Madame croissantem And it really

438
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 1: can't be understated the impact this had on shaping how

439
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: Westerners viewed Asian women, and specifically Japanese women. In Loti's lifetime,

440
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: it was reprinted over two hundred times and translated into

441
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 1: every European language. It follows a naval officer who takes

442
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: a temporary wife while stationed in Japan, one that is

443
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: doll like and a lot of the words that are

444
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: used to describe this this character are small, dainty words

445
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: that I would associate with being submissive. And if this

446
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: story sounds familiar, it could be because it is generally

447
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 1: accepted to have inspired the opera Madama Butterfly, first performed

448
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 1: in nineteen o four, very similar story. It follows an

449
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: American officer who takes a temporary wife all in Japan,

450
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: but then leaves her behind to marry a white American

451
00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: woman at the end of his service, but not before

452
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 1: his temporary Japanese wife sacrifices her religion, her family, her son,

453
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: and then takes her own life all for this man

454
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: who left her. And if you haven't seen Madama Butterfly,

455
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,720
Speaker 1: but that story still sounds familiar, perhaps you saw the

456
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:21,359
Speaker 1: reworked version that takes place in Vietnam Miss Saigon, which

457
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: since its premiere in has been performed all over the

458
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: world and still turns a profit. Now there is this

459
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: kind of compliment to the Madama Butterfly stereotype archetype, and

460
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: that is the dragon Lady, which kind of emerged, you know,

461
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,800
Speaker 1: two thousands. I would say it became popularized. But this

462
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: is kind of the sexy assassin who can do martial arts,

463
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 1: but essentially still is very one dimensional, very uh stereotyped character.

464
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: We're talking like kill Bill style, Yes, maybe Charlie's Angels,

465
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: Lucy Yeah, Rush Hour to Yeah. Man, I can't believe.

466
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you knew it. I've seen the movie

467
00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: maybe hundred times, but the first one I've seen like

468
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: maybe fifty, But like the second one, do you really

469
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: went in? Oh? Man? A classic? We're Destined to be Friends.

470
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,960
Speaker 1: The US is um, the US Armies president throughout Asia

471
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: during and after World War two and the Korean War

472
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: and the Vietnam War cemented this sexualized perception of Asian women.

473
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 1: So called juicy bars and brothels established selves around military

474
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: camps within exclusive US soldier clientele. For a lot of

475
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 1: these men that this was their first exposure to Asian women,

476
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: and it was through sex workers. And the aftermath of

477
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 1: the Korean and Vietnam Wars, a lot of Asian women

478
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: and children were airlifted out and brought to the United States,

479
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 1: giving rise to a savior narrative and it started appearing

480
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 1: in our media. Yeah. And and many Asian American men,

481
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: you know, kind of we talked about earlier with Tea,

482
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: and they've had the opposite experience. They're often desexualized, not

483
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: seen as masculine, and they're going back to this feminine history.

484
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: And it's an awful dehumanizing stereotype that's still perpetuated, perpetuated.

485
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: I have you know plenty of straight male friends who

486
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 1: are Asian American who have said that like their dating,

487
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,960
Speaker 1: particularly within the interracial sphere, like without outside of Asian women, um,

488
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: have had this stereotype opped against them or even with

489
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: Asian women sometimes, and like, um, it's just been really

490
00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 1: disheartening for a lot of them. Yeah, I'm sure. Um.

491
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 1: And it doesn't help that in our media we see

492
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: these these representations everywhere, Um, there these stereotypes are reinforced

493
00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,280
Speaker 1: and perhaps eve Ben solidified and through like the Tiger Mom,

494
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:58,479
Speaker 1: Model Minority Madama, Butterfly Dragon Lady. And that's what little

495
00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 1: representation there is anyway, because there isn't much. Asian Americans

496
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: make up only one per cent of Hollywood's leading roles. Yeah,

497
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: and and examples that were there were usually like Tokens

498
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: or about you know, very very good but like kind

499
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: of sometimes stereotypical stories about the Vietnam War, or of

500
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: course George t. K as Szulu in Star Trek. But

501
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: in recent years the good things that Asian American visibility

502
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,480
Speaker 1: has increased. Um I think recently and know move in

503
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: like Sandra became the first Asian American to when the

504
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,719
Speaker 1: lead actor's Golden Clube. Plus there's a mega hit from

505
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: last year, Crazy Rich Asians, Uh, and it's become so

506
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: popular both as a rom com and as just the

507
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 1: first movie to have an all Asian cast in almost

508
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 1: twenty three years. And it definitely represented just a small

509
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: slice of Asian America, obviously the crazy rich kind with

510
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: generational wealth and economic privilege. Very few brown our doctor

511
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: skin faces in that movie too, But it opened the

512
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: door for more movies about the Asian American experience and

513
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: know it's important to create as author and Pulti Prize

514
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: winner Via ton When has written about narrative plentitude, the

515
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 1: idea that we need more stories about Asian Americans and

516
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: about other marginalized groups so that one story doesn't carry

517
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: the burden of representing every experience. Yes, And this is

518
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 1: a big pet peeve of mind because every time the

519
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: story comes out that is all mostly Asian cast, and

520
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: everyone's like, will it make money? Because that's going to

521
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: determine if we make anymore. And yet, I mean movies

522
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: that are bad, that have a usually white male lead,

523
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 1: that don't make any money, they don't get the same

524
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: pressure like they're they're just gonna be me. There's not

525
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,880
Speaker 1: so much writing on them. Why can't we have bad

526
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,520
Speaker 1: movies for everybody? Good movies for everybody too, But bad

527
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: movies like absolutely, I mean, I mean plentitude doesn't mean

528
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: that they're all like amazing pultipize winners for sure, exactly.

529
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: Uh yeah. And you know, speaking of probably like bad examples,

530
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: probably one of the other you know, well known Asian

531
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,000
Speaker 1: American characters that we would go and risk that mentioning

532
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,040
Speaker 1: is a poo, the lovable convenience store clerk on The Simpsons,

533
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: who was recently removed from the show after comedian Harry

534
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: Knebolo made a documentary called The Problem with the Pooh.

535
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: And the problem is that a Poo's stereotypically thick Indian accent,

536
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: which I will not do well I thought about it.

537
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: Uh is voiced by non South Asian Hankers area At,

538
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 1: one of the show's creators, who also voices a lot

539
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 1: of other characters, and who Condobolo says, Uh, this is

540
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: a quote from Condabel. Sounds like a white guy doing

541
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: an impression of a white guy making fun of my father.

542
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: It's really accurate. Um. And you know, some South Asians

543
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 1: aren't offended by a pooh, but it's not hard to

544
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: see the soft racism um, which is you know, just

545
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,400
Speaker 1: been described particularly well by New Yorker writer Huasu, who

546
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: says that even though the Simpsons might not have wanted

547
00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: to a fund with a poo, it's still collapsing an

548
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: entire ethnic group and too exaggerated characteristics like a stilly

549
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: accent or submissive slogan like thank you come again, And

550
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 1: that's I think, in and of itself, is particularly problematic. Yeah,

551
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:21,720
Speaker 1: I remember when all of this was kind of happening.

552
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: It was a pretty big deal. I haven't seen the

553
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 1: show since since of who left, so I'd be interested

554
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: to check out what's going on there now. I can't

555
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 1: believe it's still in the air. I don't mean that negatively,

556
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: I know it's like, wow, it's been like a million years,

557
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 1: so the longest running show ever. I mean, I love

558
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: the simpsence' gona be wrong. And you know, I think

559
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: I remember like seeing a WHO as a kid and

560
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,400
Speaker 1: being like, well, yeah, like you know, WHO is like

561
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: a touchdown that you can refer to, like yeah, yeah,

562
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: like you know, you would you talk to like kids

563
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: and they'd be like, like, where's India And you'd be like,

564
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,720
Speaker 1: like a Pooh, you know, like I'm like a Pooh

565
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 1: like your reference point? Um, but a double edged sword

566
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: in some cases it is Yeah, again, maybe it would

567
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:11,680
Speaker 1: be it would be nice to have more representation that

568
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:17,879
Speaker 1: you could point to instead of just yeah, we can

569
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: dream something else that you you brought to My attention

570
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,400
Speaker 1: is kind of within this world of hip hop that

571
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,840
Speaker 1: there is kind of an interesting exchange between Asian American

572
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,879
Speaker 1: Organizasian and hip hop. Yeah, totally, And I mean it's

573
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: there's a few different groups that I've been coming out.

574
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: I think there's like the rap label eight eight Rising

575
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:44,640
Speaker 1: UM lot lots of people who are who are Asian

576
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:48,319
Speaker 1: American or Asian who are who are forming hip hop

577
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: groups or or other acts. And K pop has been

578
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 1: borrowing a lot from from hip hop as well from

579
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,440
Speaker 1: just in terms of like beats that the like a

580
00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 1: lot of different parts of the act and and and

581
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 1: it is this really interesting exchange that you were saying,

582
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 1: because you know, I think that hip hop has obviously

583
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,239
Speaker 1: drawn from a lot of different sources, but it's so

584
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 1: firmly rooted in the black community. And so there are

585
00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: so like so many important complex questions about some of

586
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 1: these newer groups which have sometimes been accused of appropriating

587
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,760
Speaker 1: black culture or sometimes even ignoring some of the anti

588
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: black racist comments from their fans. Um And and you know,

589
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: Asian Americans have certainly benefited from the work of black

590
00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: and brown activists and the civil rights movements of those

591
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: activists in this country. And there's still a lot of

592
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 1: work that the Asian American community at large has to

593
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: do when it comes to interracial interactions. Um. Particularly you know,

594
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 1: anti blackness is really prominent in many different Asian American communities.

595
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 1: Um And there's you know, even this a sheet of

596
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: colorism and racism within the Asian American community. I mean,

597
00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 1: you could just if you go inside a I mean

598
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: almost any Asian microan store, whether it's Filipino whether it's Indian,

599
00:36:56,719 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: whether it's Chinese. Uh. And you go to the like

600
00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: care I all you will see like skin lightning creams.

601
00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: The one in the Indian store is called fair and

602
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: Lovely trustmeters. Nothing fair and lovely about it. Like it

603
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: is literally like a bleaching cream. And people use it

604
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 1: because they want their skin to appear lighter, because being

605
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: dark skinned, especially for women of course, is just seen

606
00:37:17,160 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: as this really bad thing, you seem as less attractive. Um.

607
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 1: And you know, we could talk for like a million

608
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: years about like where that comes from and why. But

609
00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: like you know, the odd distinctions between white Asians and

610
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 1: brown Asians even within the Asian American community. But like

611
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 1: that this is just something that like exists in our

612
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: home countries. But it's also something that exists in the

613
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: Asian American experienced style that I think it needs to

614
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 1: be talked about a little bit more. Yeah, And as

615
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,600
Speaker 1: as is clear, I am not too big in tipocculture.

616
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: But we did talk about when we're preparing for this,

617
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: Likeley from Nicki Minage and Katy Perry when she did

618
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: that kind of geisha Yeah. Um, lots of like weird

619
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: um definitely stereotypical uh things that you see in pop

620
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:15,720
Speaker 1: culture are kind of like sometimes given a past, sometimes

621
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 1: not like that. I definitely deserve to also be talked

622
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:26,000
Speaker 1: about when it comes to like anti Asian or stereotypical bias. Yeah,

623
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: for sure, there's a lot to go into their um

624
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:33,759
Speaker 1: and we still have some more in this episode, but

625
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: first we have a quick break forward from our sponsor

626
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: m H and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So taking

627
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: all of this, all of these histories, the stereotypes, it

628
00:38:54,320 --> 00:39:00,400
Speaker 1: plays into the question of the Asian American identity. Now. Nowadays,

629
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 1: some folks are rejecting the label Asian American in favor

630
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 1: of something more specific. But this label was introduced. When

631
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: it was introduced, it was meant to foster unity. It

632
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: was coined by historian and activists Eugi Echioka in nineteen

633
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: sixty eight. He was partly inspired by the success of

634
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: the Black Panther movement, and he hoped it would help

635
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 1: to combat direct discrimination that had been aimed at Chinese

636
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 1: Americans and Japanese Americans. When Japanese Americans were in prisoned

637
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:32,319
Speaker 1: after World War Two, some Chinese Americans carried signs or

638
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: were buttons to signify that they were not Japanese American,

639
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: but Chinese American. This unification under one label might offer protection.

640
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: That was the thought. Asian American was also a way

641
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: to ditch derogatory terms given by society in a way

642
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 1: to self define. And then we come to the murder

643
00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: of a Chinese American, Vincent Chin in two and this

644
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,640
Speaker 1: murder increased the feeling that there needed to be a coalition.

645
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 1: Chin was beaten to death by white auto workers unhappy

646
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 1: with competition from Japanese auto companies. Yeah, and his killers

647
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: were sentenced to probation and find three thousand dollars and

648
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 1: what ha happened? Protesters Martian cities across the country, giving

649
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 1: rise to this new Pan Asian identity and unity that

650
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: was forged by the realization that if Chin, who was

651
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 1: the son of Chinese immigrants, could be killed because of

652
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: Japanese auto imports, maybe being Asian American and being able

653
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: to be mistaken for other groups by white people and

654
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: by other Americans had consequences. Uh. And that kind of

655
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: misconception shapes the racial experiences of so many Asian Americans.

656
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 1: I mean, if you look at the experiences of Sick

657
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: Americans who follow a South Asian religion that's distinct from

658
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 1: Hinduism and Islam. There is a long history of hate

659
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,400
Speaker 1: crimes against Sick Americans in the United States, often because

660
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: white racists are mistaking them from Muslims or otherwise do

661
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:02,880
Speaker 1: you mean using their faith? But this idea that Asian

662
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: American is such the the huge over a large category.

663
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,239
Speaker 1: It is that way sometimes because if I'm able to

664
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 1: be mistaken for someone else, that means that I already

665
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: have a essen interest in how the other group gets treated.

666
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: And I think that's how this kind of unity gets formed.

667
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 1: Yeah and, um, it was meant to be that way.

668
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 1: But if we look at South Asians, um Asian Americans

669
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 1: has frequently left out people from South Asia, or at

670
00:41:36,120 --> 00:41:40,399
Speaker 1: least in the minds of people who might use that term.

671
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 1: So that comes to the question of who gets the

672
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: label of Asian American, as the author of this Washington

673
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 1: Post piece, Sonya Row, points out when describing actors John

674
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: Chow or Constance, who the media typically uses Asian Americans,

675
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 1: whereas actors like Mindy Kaling, our Zas and Sorry are

676
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:02,560
Speaker 1: described differently. Yeah, and and the term Asian American also

677
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 1: includes specific Islanders sometimes or Native Hawaiians, and many Central

678
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: Asians like people from Kazakhstan or Afghanistan, and Southwest Asians

679
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 1: like people from parts of the Middle East. So it

680
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 1: for this huge group of people with so many different

681
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 1: histories and languages and cultures that you know, don't have

682
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: representation in so many places. And you see many people

683
00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: refer to themselves by their ethnicity rather than by Asian Americans.

684
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,799
Speaker 1: So I will call myself Indian American most of the time,

685
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: not Asian American, because I mean, what does that even mean?

686
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: Sometimes right exactly? Um. And another another piece of this

687
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 1: conversation and kind of this fragmentation of the Asian American

688
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: identity is affirmative action, which has been in the news

689
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 1: a lot lately. In August eighteen, the Department of Justice

690
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: came out on the side of a group of Asian

691
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: students that were suing Harvard for racial discrimination during the

692
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: admissions process. So Harvard University, for our international listeners from

693
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 1: the students legal filing, the process quotes significantly disadvantages Asian

694
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: American applicants compared to applicants of other racial groups. Worth

695
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 1: pointing out. The person who leads the organization suing Harvard,

696
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: Edward Blum, has multiple similar lawsuits against other schools, but

697
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,880
Speaker 1: on behalf of white students and just a really quick aside,

698
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: really really really quick. The term affirmative action first appeared

699
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 1: in terms of a U S policy and with the

700
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:36,520
Speaker 1: National Labor Relations Act. This act primarily allowed workers to

701
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,880
Speaker 1: unionize freely and without fear. If an employer was found

702
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 1: in non compliance firing an employee over unionizing, the employee

703
00:43:44,600 --> 00:43:49,400
Speaker 1: would be rehired and or be otherwise compensated via affirmative action.

704
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: President f dr S Secretary of the Interior extended it,

705
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 1: establishing a fixed percentage of African American employees for the

706
00:43:56,120 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: Public Works Administration. A lot of local institutions refused to obey.

707
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:07,640
Speaker 1: JFK's executive ordered ten nine to five demanded government contractors

708
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: quote take affirmative action to achieve non discrimination. Affirmative action

709
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: was meant to acknowledge how the inequalities and injustices of

710
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: the past still existed and continued to impact the prospects

711
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:24,240
Speaker 1: of African Americans. In nineteen sixty seven, it was also

712
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 1: used as an argument to ban discrimination on the basis

713
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: of sex. In ninety eight, the Supreme Court. Here's the

714
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:34,040
Speaker 1: first case of reverse discrimination made by a white man

715
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: who believed he would have gotten into his university of

716
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 1: choice if he had been a minority. He lost the case.

717
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 1: In the nineties, Californians past California Civil Rights Initiative are

718
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 1: Prop two O nine. This initiative did away with affirmative

719
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 1: action in the realm of education. It passed in and

720
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: between admissions to Berkeley and u c l A dropped

721
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,879
Speaker 1: by fifty for African Americans. Several other states followed suit,

722
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: but two more cases brought to the Supreme Court have lost.

723
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: Okay back to Harvard. This was the culmination of a

724
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:17,280
Speaker 1: couple of grievances this lawsuit. Harvard's own internal research division

725
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 1: found that if the only factor considered was academic performance,

726
00:45:22,160 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 1: of the admitted class would be Asian. Now, if you

727
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: introduce other consideration like athletics, legacies, extracurriculars, the number goes

728
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 1: down to When you add in demographics, the number drops

729
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,320
Speaker 1: to eighteen. And we should add that this particular lawsuit,

730
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 1: which was filed by a Chinese American, has in particular

731
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 1: gotten a lot of support from Chinese American advocates and

732
00:45:45,840 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 1: media and just across the country for many people who

733
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: feel similarly to the plain of related have been a

734
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: handful of lawsuits that have aligned white people and a

735
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 1: specific group of Asian Americans to eighteen lawsuits against Google

736
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: alleged that the white male plaintiffs were being illegally discriminated

737
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: against due to hiring quotas that favor females and non

738
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:16,000
Speaker 1: favored minorities. Both lawsuits included Caucasian and Asian males as

739
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:20,120
Speaker 1: those being discriminated against. Yeah, but there's definitely a reality

740
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:23,040
Speaker 1: of proxypany to whiteness that's going on here that many

741
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,680
Speaker 1: Asians have benefited from, and it's something that many other

742
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,160
Speaker 1: non white people, particularly those who identify as black, can't

743
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:34,080
Speaker 1: benefit from. And this isn't the first time a minority

744
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:37,200
Speaker 1: has been grouped together with the majority, in this case

745
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 1: white people. Sociologists call this whitening. The term comes to

746
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 1: us part partly courtesy of a Portuguese phrase out of Brazil,

747
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 1: quote money whitens. Previous groups that were once considered as

748
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,759
Speaker 1: non white include the Irish and the Italians. And this

749
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: involves a certain level of a rature and cultural assimilation

750
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: and it's affirmative action issue has really you know, I

751
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: think split the Asian American community in this country in

752
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: so many different ways, and it's really important to note

753
00:47:08,640 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 1: that a majority of Asian Americans support affirmative action. It

754
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: has benefited so many of Asian Americans lives. The research

755
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: group API Data that stands for Asian American Pacific Islander Data,

756
00:47:22,960 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: which is one of the few that di segregate data

757
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:28,240
Speaker 1: based on ethnicity. They found that a majority of most

758
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 1: Asian ethnic groups support affirmative action, from eighty four percent

759
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: support among Indian Americans to sixty percent support among Chinese Americans.

760
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: And you know that there's a lot of differences within

761
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: those groups. So you know, less than half of Vietnamese Americans,

762
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:48,719
Speaker 1: by contrast, support affirmative action, and that's tied to the

763
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: fact that many American Vietnamese Americans lean Republican, which is

764
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 1: also influenced by a history with communism and the Vietnam War.

765
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 1: That's not unlike that of many Cuban of Americans. So

766
00:48:01,480 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 1: you know, again really important to remember that Asian Americans

767
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: aren't a monoliths both economically and politically, and the GOP

768
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,359
Speaker 1: has come out on the side of Asian Americans in

769
00:48:13,760 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 1: the effort while Asian Americans like Chinese Americans, particularly in

770
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: this case um of this Harvard lawsuit in the effort

771
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: to end affirmative action. For as you can imagine, the

772
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: GOP has a different, entirely political reasons, using the concerns

773
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,520
Speaker 1: of Asian Americans to help white Americans. The Republican Party

774
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: is courting Asian Americans, and you know, Asian Americans largely

775
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 1: vote Democratic, with sub notable exceptions which include Vietnamese and Filipinos,

776
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: and several articles I read have advised the Democratic Party

777
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 1: to sound the alarm over this, to really pay attention

778
00:48:47,440 --> 00:48:50,440
Speaker 1: to this issue. Yeah, and and you know, many Asian Americans,

779
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: uh in different parts of the country have been politically

780
00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 1: apathetic in some places, you know, a lower than average

781
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: turnout rates than compared with other minority groups. And the

782
00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 1: continuing evolution of Asian American political identity is definitely something

783
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 1: to watch out for, I think as time goes on,

784
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 1: and you know, I think the most important thing to

785
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:15,040
Speaker 1: remember out of all of this that we've talked about

786
00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 1: over the last hour so is that Asian American identities

787
00:49:20,640 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: extremely complicated and something that is still under construction, especially

788
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: as our population grows and we become more visible in

789
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 1: mainstream society, and as things like affirmative action really take

790
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, have us take stock of what it is

791
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,640
Speaker 1: that we believe and what our histories are in this country.

792
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,959
Speaker 1: And there's not one prevailing narrative that explains what being

793
00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 1: Asian American is. Absolutely, and as I was discussing with

794
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,160
Speaker 1: you when we were planning this, and as I kind

795
00:49:51,160 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: of alluded to at the top, we don't learn about

796
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 1: this stuff in the United States. Um, a lot of

797
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 1: this history was new to me, and we just don't

798
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 1: have this background. And it is so important when understanding

799
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: where people come from and where they're going, and when

800
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: we're talking about these two discordant Asian America's to me,

801
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 1: it sounds like it is one the first wave has

802
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 1: all this history and then the second wave kind of

803
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: doesn't get taught that when they're already in the United

804
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 1: States that they had a different experience. And to know

805
00:50:28,760 --> 00:50:32,000
Speaker 1: all that stuff is good for all of us. I'm

806
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:35,919
Speaker 1: a big proponent, if you didn't know, I'm a big

807
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:39,919
Speaker 1: proponent of education and listening to other people, um and

808
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 1: learning from other people's experiences. So this has been really

809
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: valuable for me as well. Me too. Yeah, I'm so

810
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 1: glad I'm so glad that we got to do this

811
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 1: and that you came on. Um, do you have any

812
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: recommended reading from from Asian women or Asian people Asian

813
00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: American people, Yeah, totally. I you know, one of the

814
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: books that we mentioned earlier, I think what was something

815
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 1: that we turned to when we're regin this episode, The

816
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:07,919
Speaker 1: Making of Asian America, which is book by air gal Lee.

817
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:10,239
Speaker 1: It came out a couple of years ago. Um. It

818
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: is very long and very detailed, but I think it

819
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 1: does give a great um overview of how Asian Americans

820
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: came to this country, why we're here, all of that stuff.

821
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,160
Speaker 1: And you know, of course, like pop culture, we would

822
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: be remiss if we didn't like their shoutouts too. I

823
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,839
Speaker 1: think some of the famous Asian Americans out there, you know,

824
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: from a Parana non Cherla, who's like a hilarious comedian,

825
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: you should totally follow her on Twitter, to uh Ausuf Monve,

826
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: to Constant Woo, the actress in Crazy Witch Asians and

827
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: Fresh off the Boat and uh you know here Murai

828
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,799
Speaker 1: who directed uh Atlanta the TV show and who's just

829
00:51:49,920 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 1: like a really wonderful artist and does a lot of

830
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 1: music videos. Asian Americans all over the creative spheres watch

831
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: out yeah teen yeah, watch out and support support their work.

832
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: And as speaking of where could the good listeners find you?

833
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 1: You will find me online in the digital nightmare we

834
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: called the Internet. You can find my work at son

835
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: Vashi dot com or I right around Atlanta if you

836
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,759
Speaker 1: live around here, please hit me up to say hey,

837
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:30,160
Speaker 1: and I may say hey back for sure, oh a

838
00:52:30,320 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 1: steady maybe like definitely definitely hut you back and like

839
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:39,080
Speaker 1: three to five days perfect. I love it. Thank you

840
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:41,439
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. I hope that you'll you'll

841
00:52:41,440 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: come back. This was such a delight having you. Thank

842
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 1: you so much. I totally well and for you listeners.

843
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 1: If you would like to reach out to us, you

844
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,200
Speaker 1: can Our email is a mom stuff at our stuffworks

845
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:53,719
Speaker 1: dot com. You can find us on Twitter at mom

846
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 1: stuff Podcasts and on Instagram at stuff I've Never Told You.

847
00:52:56,880 --> 00:53:00,800
Speaker 1: Thanks as always to our producer Andrew Howard, and thanks

848
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: to you for listening. M