1
00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:04,520
Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati. Today were leaders at

2
00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:18,480
Speaker 1: the gateway to the mighty Amazon River. It's November eleventh,

3
00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,160
Speaker 1: and the United Nations Climate Summit COP thirty has officially

4
00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:26,599
Speaker 1: begun here in Brazil. It's happening in Berlen, a port

5
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,960
Speaker 1: city of about two million people at the mouth of

6
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:33,080
Speaker 1: the Amazon River. The negotiations started with a fight about

7
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,040
Speaker 1: what to put on the agenda, and that's not unexpected.

8
00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,800
Speaker 1: It often happens at the start of a COP meeting,

9
00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,360
Speaker 1: but it is certainly a rockier start than the Brazilian

10
00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:47,080
Speaker 1: hosts of COP thirty would have wanted. Later on in

11
00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 1: today's episode, I'm speaking with an experienced climate diplomat, Rachel Kite,

12
00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:54,920
Speaker 1: about the outcomes she's looking for here in Brazil and

13
00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,400
Speaker 1: who will fill the void left behind by the US.

14
00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,880
Speaker 1: But first, I want to give you a sense of

15
00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,600
Speaker 1: what it's like to be at a climate summit near

16
00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,840
Speaker 1: the Amazon Forest and our reactions to the world leader's

17
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,679
Speaker 1: speeches that took place last week opening the proceedings here

18
00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,560
Speaker 1: in Brazil. To do that, I'm joined by my colleague

19
00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:17,880
Speaker 1: Sarah Wells, who leads Bloomberg's coverage of climate and energy. Sarah,

20
00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:18,759
Speaker 1: Welcome to the show.

21
00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:19,639
Speaker 2: Thanks Egsha.

22
00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,319
Speaker 1: So we got a chance to see a little bit

23
00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,119
Speaker 1: of the Amazon forest. What was it like we did?

24
00:01:25,880 --> 00:01:28,800
Speaker 2: It was great. I mean after a couple of days

25
00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:31,959
Speaker 2: in the blue Zone at the World Leader's Summit, you

26
00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:33,800
Speaker 2: could be literally any country in the world. You were

27
00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,840
Speaker 2: in a windowless tent, and so to be outside in

28
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,720
Speaker 2: the forest learning new things about fruits and plants and

29
00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:46,279
Speaker 2: how they grow, getting some time on a boat, getting

30
00:01:46,280 --> 00:01:49,760
Speaker 2: to have a beer and look at our surroundings was fantastic.

31
00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:53,760
Speaker 2: And did I guess speak to the controversial reason for

32
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,080
Speaker 2: putting the summit in Belem in the first place, which

33
00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:58,800
Speaker 2: was to try to give the attendees some exposure to

34
00:01:58,880 --> 00:01:59,600
Speaker 2: what's happening here.

35
00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,400
Speaker 1: We saw a three hundred year old tree called the Sumahoma.

36
00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:08,040
Speaker 1: We saw a boat filled with military police trying to

37
00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,359
Speaker 1: take care of all the delegates who are coming here.

38
00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,400
Speaker 1: And the reason for all that security is that we've

39
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,040
Speaker 1: had many world leaders show up here at copp and

40
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:21,679
Speaker 1: give speeches. It's typical at the start when they want

41
00:02:21,760 --> 00:02:25,120
Speaker 1: to inspire the delegates to go and do something bold,

42
00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,440
Speaker 1: But there weren't that many world leaders this time around.

43
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,239
Speaker 2: That's right. I mean, I had the King and Queen

44
00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,919
Speaker 2: of Sweden on my plane coming here. But unfortunately, within

45
00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:39,120
Speaker 2: the Blue Zone itself, the journalists were very segregated from

46
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:42,239
Speaker 2: the world leaders. It's literally a barricade going down the

47
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:47,760
Speaker 2: middle of the corridor, and so seeing a physical world

48
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:50,480
Speaker 2: leader in the flesh was not what we experienced. We

49
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:52,280
Speaker 2: sat an ow media room and watched them on TV.

50
00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:55,920
Speaker 1: Regardless, I know that was not ideal. We would have

51
00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:58,440
Speaker 1: wanted to really be in the room with the world leaders.

52
00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,120
Speaker 1: But were there highlights from the speeches?

53
00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:05,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I enjoyed. Me and Motley, the Prime

54
00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:09,600
Speaker 2: Minister of Barbados obviously you know she has has some

55
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:12,280
Speaker 2: credentials as a as a climate campaigner, but she came

56
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,720
Speaker 2: with a specific idea around methane, which was something new.

57
00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,400
Speaker 3: I have come here however, this afternoon to speak on

58
00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,080
Speaker 3: one s and that is methane. The scientists advise that

59
00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,720
Speaker 3: this is the main way that we can not stall

60
00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:34,880
Speaker 3: the increase in temperatures, but reverse the temperature increase that

61
00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 3: we have seen across the planet.

62
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,040
Speaker 2: For Bloomberg clients and listeners, Petro Sanchez floated the idea

63
00:03:41,080 --> 00:03:48,880
Speaker 2: of a levy on business class flights and private jets

64
00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:54,240
Speaker 2: class premium. Yet obviously that's of a concern to a

65
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,760
Speaker 2: relatively small proportion of the world, but certainly for some.

66
00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:00,960
Speaker 2: And then we did have some quite remarks from some

67
00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,520
Speaker 2: of the Latin American leaders about Trump. In particular, Columbia's

68
00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,480
Speaker 2: Petro was the most direct.

69
00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:16,040
Speaker 1: Elke Senor Donald Trump Novenga el dubta l personal dena

70
00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:24,760
Speaker 1: Jevas Sosia that a laismo econeia allow maney that.

71
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,640
Speaker 2: You know he he said that Trump is against humanity

72
00:04:27,680 --> 00:04:29,760
Speaker 2: and a bunch of other things. And so there were

73
00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:33,640
Speaker 2: definitely some strong feelings expressed about the American position on

74
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:34,599
Speaker 2: climate at this point.

75
00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,080
Speaker 1: And it's just the start of the negotiations. It's your

76
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,840
Speaker 1: first COP meeting. What has your experience been like.

77
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,599
Speaker 2: I think everyone said before I came that you know,

78
00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 2: the sort of the rest of the world recedes and

79
00:04:47,520 --> 00:04:50,280
Speaker 2: suddenly you're in this bubble where you know, some some

80
00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,760
Speaker 2: things make sense, some things really don't, And I think

81
00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,240
Speaker 2: that's that's the case. You know, you suddenly find yourself

82
00:04:56,480 --> 00:05:01,120
Speaker 2: sort of pouring over very technical discussion which can have

83
00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,720
Speaker 2: real world consequences. So definitely, you know, being being in

84
00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:07,880
Speaker 2: a media center with hundreds of other journalists, expensive food,

85
00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,160
Speaker 2: very popular, occasional arrivals of coffee deliveries that you know,

86
00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,560
Speaker 2: that stuff has been has been fun. But I think

87
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:18,520
Speaker 2: what we you know, what we are all here to

88
00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,360
Speaker 2: write about, is significant pieces of news that will hopefully

89
00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:24,400
Speaker 2: come out of this. And that's that's on all the attendees,

90
00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:26,640
Speaker 2: but it's obviously most of all on our on our

91
00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:27,960
Speaker 2: host country, Brazil.

92
00:05:27,839 --> 00:05:31,640
Speaker 1: And what do you expect we might be writing about

93
00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:32,479
Speaker 1: in two weeks time.

94
00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:35,240
Speaker 2: Well As of now, the discussion is all around what

95
00:05:35,360 --> 00:05:37,280
Speaker 2: ends up on the agenda. That's a very you know,

96
00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,400
Speaker 2: temporary discussion. As I said earlier, I do think methane

97
00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:42,560
Speaker 2: seems to have some momentum behind it, so let's see,

98
00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,000
Speaker 2: let's see if we get anywhere on that. And then

99
00:05:45,200 --> 00:05:48,480
Speaker 2: I think this discussion around whether there should be a

100
00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,640
Speaker 2: potential roadmap to move away from fossil fuels. Obviously, the

101
00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,080
Speaker 2: declaration to even attempt to move away from fossil fuels

102
00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:58,960
Speaker 2: was highly contentious at previous cops and so I think

103
00:05:59,240 --> 00:06:01,960
Speaker 2: the fact that Brazil is even looking to put that

104
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,680
Speaker 2: back on the agenda does suggest that they're prepared to,

105
00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:08,320
Speaker 2: you know, to go into a region that will come

106
00:06:08,360 --> 00:06:11,159
Speaker 2: with a fight, so we will be watching that really closely.

107
00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:15,080
Speaker 2: And then lastly, I would say I think the influence

108
00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:18,039
Speaker 2: probably not on the ground, but let's see the influence

109
00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,600
Speaker 2: or otherwise of the US on proceedings is obviously a

110
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:21,799
Speaker 2: huge thing for us to watch.

111
00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:29,520
Speaker 1: Thank you, Sarah, thank you for having me join me

112
00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 1: after the break where I speak with Rachel Kite, the

113
00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,800
Speaker 1: UK's Special Representative for Climate, about negotiations in an increasingly

114
00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:40,480
Speaker 1: polarized world. To find all of Bloomberg's coverage of COP thirty,

115
00:06:40,640 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 1: head to our website bloomberg dot com Forward Slash Green.

116
00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:46,599
Speaker 1: You can also sign up to Bloomberg Green's newsletter that

117
00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,680
Speaker 1: comes out daily during the COP meeting. Find it at

118
00:06:49,680 --> 00:07:03,840
Speaker 1: Bloomberg dot com Forward Slash Newsletters. There are a few

119
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,800
Speaker 1: people as well placed to understand how climate negotiations play

120
00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,680
Speaker 1: out as Rachel Kite. She is the UK's Special Representative

121
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,400
Speaker 1: for Climate and she has held a number of significant

122
00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,680
Speaker 1: positions across the climate space. She was the Special Representative

123
00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,360
Speaker 1: of the United Nations Secretary General and the CEO of

124
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,920
Speaker 1: Sustainable Energy for All. She also served as World Bank

125
00:07:25,960 --> 00:07:30,480
Speaker 1: Groups Vice President and Special Envy for Climate Change. In

126
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,720
Speaker 1: her current role. She has spent the last year up

127
00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,960
Speaker 1: to COP thirty meeting diplomats and leaders from around the

128
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,640
Speaker 1: world trying to show up the support for action here

129
00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:40,200
Speaker 1: in Berlin.

130
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:43,920
Speaker 4: Rachel, welcome to the show.

131
00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,200
Speaker 5: It's lovely to see you. Actually, So you.

132
00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,320
Speaker 4: Were appointed a UK Special Representative for Climate just over

133
00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:53,520
Speaker 4: a year ago and your goal is wide ranging. You're

134
00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:59,040
Speaker 4: supposed to support ministers that will help increase UK's diplomatic

135
00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,160
Speaker 4: engagement on climate globally. What have you done so far.

136
00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:06,760
Speaker 5: I've been out there in the world really pushing out

137
00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,640
Speaker 5: the intention of this government when it came into office,

138
00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,840
Speaker 5: which was that even though we're only one percent of

139
00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:16,520
Speaker 5: global emissions, that's not a reason to disengage, which I

140
00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:20,720
Speaker 5: think had sometimes been the case beforehand, but precisely because

141
00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:22,680
Speaker 5: we're only one percent of global emissions, we need the

142
00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,840
Speaker 5: other ninety nine percent to be going through the transition

143
00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,480
Speaker 5: that we've started to go through ourselves, and at the

144
00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:32,280
Speaker 5: same time this growing realization about how much we need

145
00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,640
Speaker 5: to be dealing with adaptation and resilience. Now we've just

146
00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,720
Speaker 5: seen the Climate Change Committee come out with a domestic

147
00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:40,240
Speaker 5: report on how vulnerable we are as our own country.

148
00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,400
Speaker 5: But what's been really interesting. So I've been in every continent.

149
00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:47,160
Speaker 5: I've been talking to middle income countries about missions reduction

150
00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,840
Speaker 5: and their energy transitions, and then talking to lower income

151
00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,520
Speaker 5: countries about growth and prosperity and investment and trade that

152
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,560
Speaker 5: is green, and then to countries that are really vulnerable

153
00:08:57,559 --> 00:09:01,120
Speaker 5: about how much more we can do to mainstream adaptation

154
00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:02,880
Speaker 5: and resilience into their economic.

155
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 1: Growth and planning.

156
00:09:03,640 --> 00:09:06,680
Speaker 5: But when I'm out there, what countries want is the

157
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,680
Speaker 5: how to, especially on the energy transition. So countless numbers

158
00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:14,640
Speaker 5: of countries that want technical assistance, support on power sector reform,

159
00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:18,520
Speaker 5: on how to build an offshore wind industry, how to

160
00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,240
Speaker 5: decommission call, how to make the transition that we've made

161
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 5: over the last twenty odd years, and then how to

162
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:27,640
Speaker 5: partner with us, and how to get more UK investment

163
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,760
Speaker 5: into their green transitions, how to talk about the difficulties

164
00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,720
Speaker 5: of hard to debate sectors, and how to get more

165
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,080
Speaker 5: of their investment into the UK economy. So yeah, special

166
00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,440
Speaker 5: representative for Climate, but a big piece of this is

167
00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,400
Speaker 5: about the trade and investment that makes those transitions really happen.

168
00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,280
Speaker 4: And you get to do this because the UK has

169
00:09:46,480 --> 00:09:49,160
Speaker 4: for the last seventeen years since the UK Climate Change

170
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 4: Actor was passed a leader on climate issues, whether it

171
00:09:53,080 --> 00:09:56,240
Speaker 4: was the Conservative Party which led the government for most

172
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:58,760
Speaker 4: of that time, or whether it's the Labor Party now,

173
00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,880
Speaker 4: And in the process the UK has shown not just

174
00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,120
Speaker 4: how to do a law, but also how to deploy

175
00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:08,520
Speaker 4: large amounts of renewables, how to build the grid, and

176
00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,680
Speaker 4: you get to take UK's learnings out to the world

177
00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,240
Speaker 4: but also reflect back on the UK at a time

178
00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,120
Speaker 4: when the politics are shifting. The Conservative Party that led

179
00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:22,720
Speaker 4: on climate now wants to get rid of the Climate

180
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:27,120
Speaker 4: Change Act. Reform Party, which is gaining in polls at

181
00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:31,200
Speaker 4: least and is ahead of Labor and Conservatives in many cases,

182
00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,840
Speaker 4: is saying they want to get rid of net zero goal.

183
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,000
Speaker 4: Even though this Labor government, the one that you represent,

184
00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 4: isn't turning back on climate How hard does that make

185
00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,480
Speaker 4: your life when you go abroad to take the message

186
00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:45,760
Speaker 4: of what needs to be done on climate change.

187
00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:46,160
Speaker 2: Well.

188
00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:50,800
Speaker 5: I think that across the world many countries are experiencing

189
00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 5: a pushback from populace on the right mainly but also

190
00:10:56,400 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 5: in the past on the left around the drive nets.

191
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:07,079
Speaker 5: If people can't feel or imagine what a clean energy

192
00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:09,720
Speaker 5: future looks like to them, and feels like in their pocket.

193
00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,600
Speaker 5: Then they are vulnerable to the sort of miscommunication, disinformation

194
00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,480
Speaker 5: or whatever you often see now. So actually it's a

195
00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,760
Speaker 5: point of conversation, right. So people see that we had

196
00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 5: a bipartisan support, right as Americans would say, around our goals,

197
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,680
Speaker 5: and you know, and of course a lot of the

198
00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:31,680
Speaker 5: indications are that the public still wants clean air, wants

199
00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,240
Speaker 5: clean water, wants safe communities, wants protection from extreme heat,

200
00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,319
Speaker 5: wants floods planning. But what they don't like is energy

201
00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,520
Speaker 5: bills that are expensive, and there's very real reasons for that.

202
00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,080
Speaker 5: And also with all humility, I mean, you know, nobody's

203
00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:47,640
Speaker 5: got this all the way right, right, So, as a

204
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,520
Speaker 5: country that is going through a moment of political tension

205
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,280
Speaker 5: around the speed with which this transition is happening, the

206
00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,320
Speaker 5: government came in and started fixing pieces of the regulatory system,

207
00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,680
Speaker 5: putting in place bits and pieces that would allow us

208
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:02,760
Speaker 5: to go faster to meet the goal of twenty thirty

209
00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:04,680
Speaker 5: that was set by the government when it was running

210
00:12:04,720 --> 00:12:07,880
Speaker 5: for office. All of that is happening, but you don't

211
00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:10,960
Speaker 5: necessarily see the result immediately. So then what's the challenge

212
00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,480
Speaker 5: of communication internationally? People see us in a leadership position.

213
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 5: See that this is a difficult issue domestically, but for

214
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,880
Speaker 5: many other countries it's a difficult issue domestically, and so

215
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:22,199
Speaker 5: that's a point of commonality.

216
00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:22,520
Speaker 1: Really.

217
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,559
Speaker 4: So you're saying, so far the UK's leadership on climate,

218
00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,480
Speaker 4: whether that was through making laws or through energy, is

219
00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,080
Speaker 4: one that other countries wanted to copy. But now they're

220
00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,960
Speaker 4: also looking at the UK and the crumbling political consensus

221
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,600
Speaker 4: and they are seeing whether there are lessons they can

222
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,120
Speaker 4: learn from it. Because these things are not isolated. They're

223
00:12:42,160 --> 00:12:44,719
Speaker 4: not just happening in the UK. They're happening in other places. No.

224
00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:48,880
Speaker 5: I mean, look across the EU, look across Socania, look

225
00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:53,040
Speaker 5: across Latin America. You know, these are issues that are

226
00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:56,160
Speaker 5: present in any democracy, right. And what's interesting is a

227
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:58,840
Speaker 5: number of countries now have got governments, you know, with

228
00:12:58,960 --> 00:13:02,200
Speaker 5: commitments to you know, phasing out of coal by twenty

229
00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:07,360
Speaker 5: forty or really ambitious goals around the energy transition. And

230
00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,960
Speaker 5: you know, it's not just the political narrative which has

231
00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:16,000
Speaker 5: become more pungent, right, it is also that global growth

232
00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,439
Speaker 5: has slowed or is not rampant. Right, So, for fear

233
00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:23,480
Speaker 5: of a populist uprising, right, a number of countries are like, Okay,

234
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:27,040
Speaker 5: how do I transition away from coal on the timeline

235
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,040
Speaker 5: that I've set, Where is the investment going to come from?

236
00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:33,320
Speaker 5: How do I navigate tensions around tariff's what is that

237
00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,360
Speaker 5: doing to the level of growth? How do I secure

238
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:38,680
Speaker 5: a just transition for the people employed in the sector.

239
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,920
Speaker 5: So these are universally difficult and universally important themes that

240
00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 5: countries want to work on together. And so when I'm

241
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:48,360
Speaker 5: traveling that's what I'm talking about.

242
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:51,640
Speaker 4: Are there specific country examples where over the past year

243
00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:54,560
Speaker 4: you have seen that play out and work in favor

244
00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:55,280
Speaker 4: of climate action.

245
00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:55,839
Speaker 2: Yeah.

246
00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,920
Speaker 5: So the Philippines has got extremely ambitious goals around phase

247
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:04,240
Speaker 5: seeing out coal and bringing in offshore wind and diversifying

248
00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:07,679
Speaker 5: and bringing more investment into solar, not just in the

249
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 5: sort of metromillar area, but across the country. So Korea

250
00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,280
Speaker 5: new government in place inherits it and was very bullish

251
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 5: on the campaign trail around their ambitions how do they

252
00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,520
Speaker 5: do it? They're about to invest in an offshore wind

253
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:24,160
Speaker 5: industry as well. Vietnam, which is a country that we've

254
00:14:24,160 --> 00:14:26,600
Speaker 5: worked through the Just Energy Transition Partnership for a number

255
00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,280
Speaker 5: of years, but that's starting to move along the AZI

256
00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,000
Speaker 5: and power grid. How do you build a power grid

257
00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,600
Speaker 5: that allows each of the Asian countries to grow their

258
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,280
Speaker 5: economies by accessing the clean energy that each of them possess.

259
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 5: Right Eastern Caribbean, how do each of those countries build

260
00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:47,240
Speaker 5: out their geothermal You know, it's probably cheaper and easier

261
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,760
Speaker 5: to do it as an integrated grid, but that's really complicated.

262
00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:54,520
Speaker 5: How do they think about that? Australia India huge move

263
00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:57,960
Speaker 5: to develop offshore wind off the good coast goods you're

264
00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,400
Speaker 5: out off Tamil Nadu. You know how to do that.

265
00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:03,480
Speaker 5: We have a really built out technical cooperation with them anyway,

266
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,360
Speaker 5: and now we're investing in each other. And then China.

267
00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,800
Speaker 5: I've just come back from China where we have a

268
00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:12,840
Speaker 5: technical cooperation on power sector reform and also now on

269
00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:14,280
Speaker 5: battery storage and hydrogen.

270
00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:18,760
Speaker 4: So in your time covering climate, you've covered it from

271
00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:21,480
Speaker 4: many different angles. You've worked in the private sector, You've

272
00:15:21,640 --> 00:15:25,000
Speaker 4: tried to push carbon markets, You've worked at the cop level,

273
00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,000
Speaker 4: looking at diplomacy and how negotiations work. We are in

274
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,360
Speaker 4: the tenth year of the Paris Agreement. Could have been

275
00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,920
Speaker 4: this year when we celebrate what Paris has achieved. But

276
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:39,360
Speaker 4: with the US the largest emitter, leaving the Paris Agreement,

277
00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,320
Speaker 4: how would you class the progress that the world has

278
00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:44,560
Speaker 4: made so far.

279
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:50,160
Speaker 5: It's definitely made progress. I mean, over the next few days,

280
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,760
Speaker 5: you know, the narrative will be, oh, we're not on track. Yeah,

281
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:56,320
Speaker 5: we're not on track. We're more on track than we

282
00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 5: would have been without the Paris Agreement, and the plan

283
00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 5: that countries are now submitting are fully politically contested at home,

284
00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,320
Speaker 5: you know, hard fought economic plans, which is what we

285
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 5: really wanted ten years ago. But we're now just beginning

286
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 5: to see in the third generation that this is what

287
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,840
Speaker 5: they are. And we wouldn't be there without the Paris Agreement.

288
00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:17,920
Speaker 5: I don't think countries would be lining up to go

289
00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:20,960
Speaker 5: through the pain of developing these reports if we hadn't.

290
00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,440
Speaker 5: But the point is that we're not going fast enough

291
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 5: and we're not going far enough, and so the Paris

292
00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,160
Speaker 5: Agreement is vulnerable to attack from popular so or from

293
00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,680
Speaker 5: the polls on the right and on the left, because

294
00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,280
Speaker 5: it isn't meeting needs sufficiently well. And so when we

295
00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:42,840
Speaker 5: gather in Brazil, the leaders that gather and those who

296
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,120
Speaker 5: aren't there but by proxy need to sort of say, okay,

297
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:50,160
Speaker 5: we're not yet on track, but we commit to doing more.

298
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,400
Speaker 5: Transitions don't go smoothly, they don't go in a straight line.

299
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,600
Speaker 5: They can go very fast and then slow down and

300
00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:57,680
Speaker 5: very fast, and it's a series of s curves. It's

301
00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,160
Speaker 5: a series of leaps forward, and there's no reason why

302
00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:03,560
Speaker 5: we can't commit to doing that. But the fact that

303
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:07,280
Speaker 5: we're multilaterally all sort of working together to make this

304
00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,560
Speaker 5: go faster, that's the conversation. It's not a conversation about

305
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:12,760
Speaker 5: going slower. Is important.

306
00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:17,119
Speaker 4: Are we working together though, because recently we saw a

307
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,639
Speaker 4: very clear sign of how things don't work together at

308
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:25,040
Speaker 4: multilateral forums. The International Maritime Organization had a vote to

309
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,439
Speaker 4: put in a global carbon tax for shipping, a sector

310
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,800
Speaker 4: that produces one billion tons of emissions, and until about

311
00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:37,440
Speaker 4: the day of the vote, there was good feeling among

312
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:42,920
Speaker 4: countries that they'd argued over politically contested plan and had

313
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,120
Speaker 4: come to something that they could agree on. And then

314
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:50,320
Speaker 4: one country, the US, with its ability to call diplomats

315
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 4: and make threats, which we've reported on, caused them to

316
00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:56,280
Speaker 4: delay the vote, and now some say that it may

317
00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,520
Speaker 4: never come to pass. So are we working together.

318
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:03,000
Speaker 5: This majority of countries are working together. For sure. I

319
00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,199
Speaker 5: think what happened at the IMO was extraordinarily disappointing, right,

320
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,800
Speaker 5: I mean, that's a decade's effort at best delayed, at

321
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,399
Speaker 5: worst put on the shelf. And so we'll have to

322
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,160
Speaker 5: come back at it another way and find a way

323
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,920
Speaker 5: to do this, because that the polluter has to pay

324
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,520
Speaker 5: is a kind of fundamental principle of all of this.

325
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:24,800
Speaker 5: And yeah, the United States made clear its position over

326
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 5: the summer and then intensified its diplomacy in the days

327
00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:31,399
Speaker 5: up to the vote. But it also creates space for

328
00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:35,120
Speaker 5: plausible deniability for other countries that, for whatever reasons, didn't

329
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,240
Speaker 5: like this or didn't like that. So in any multilateral negotiation,

330
00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 5: there may be one protagonist which attracts most of the attention,

331
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,440
Speaker 5: but it normally creates new spaces which can be exploited

332
00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,560
Speaker 5: one way or the other. But when it comes to blame,

333
00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,159
Speaker 5: I think obviously the United States has said that it

334
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:56,760
Speaker 5: filed its intention to withdraw. That comes due after cop

335
00:18:56,840 --> 00:18:58,439
Speaker 5: right but at the end of the year beginning of

336
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 5: twenty twenty six. So for the moment, the United States

337
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,960
Speaker 5: is in, but it has made clear its intention to leave,

338
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,000
Speaker 5: which puts it in a minority, even if it is

339
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,080
Speaker 5: a large economy and nobody else is leaving it. And

340
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 5: so I think it is clear that everybody's working together,

341
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,639
Speaker 5: and I think it's clear that when we gather on

342
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,919
Speaker 5: the port city in the middle of the Amazon, that

343
00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 5: what leaders will be saying is that this is a

344
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,040
Speaker 5: multilateral process which is a value and will be defended,

345
00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:30,840
Speaker 5: and we will defend the multilateral processes that help us

346
00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 5: work together on these problems which go beyond all boundaries.

347
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,400
Speaker 4: If you take this ten years on Paris, A lot

348
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:40,680
Speaker 4: of it at COP meetings, and I've been to five

349
00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,159
Speaker 4: of them, so not as many as you, but I

350
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,040
Speaker 4: can say it's so technical and so in depth necessary,

351
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 4: but one that doesn't break through for a politician to

352
00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:53,200
Speaker 4: go back home and make a case for why we

353
00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,199
Speaker 4: are doing climate action. How do you take what has

354
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,399
Speaker 4: been achieved and make that case in a political away

355
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,639
Speaker 4: to people so that the next ten years leaders can

356
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 4: continue to support this multilateral forum.

357
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a great question. So for the last ten years.

358
00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,040
Speaker 5: So first of all, we agreed Paris, then everybody sort

359
00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 5: of went home, and then the negotiators sort of negotiated

360
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,719
Speaker 5: a rule book on how we would implement what we'd agreed,

361
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,680
Speaker 5: and that took way too long, But that's done now

362
00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,240
Speaker 5: and you could actually say that we've negotiated everything that

363
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,280
Speaker 5: needs to be negotiated, and so what this cop represents

364
00:20:28,320 --> 00:20:32,800
Speaker 5: is a significant pivot to accelerating implementation. So it's all

365
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 5: about implementing all of the things that we've agreed. That's

366
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:38,439
Speaker 5: what the Brazilians are trying to organize, like outside of

367
00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 5: the negotiations, and I think that that's actually much easier

368
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,159
Speaker 5: for politicians to sell at home. So why would we

369
00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:50,320
Speaker 5: go to Brazil and discuss investing in the Amazon and

370
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,359
Speaker 5: other tropical forests right? Well, first, because if we lose them,

371
00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:58,000
Speaker 5: we lose control over the thermostatu of the planet. Right

372
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,040
Speaker 5: we will pass a tipping point which will bring much

373
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 5: more climate impact to everybody. But you know, to look

374
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 5: at it from a British perspective, if we lose the

375
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 5: tropical forests and their integrity, our own food security is

376
00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 5: going to be massively disrupted. So the idea that our

377
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,119
Speaker 5: domestic security is secure if we haven't got you know,

378
00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,720
Speaker 5: a climate regime which is starting to see real progress,

379
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:26,159
Speaker 5: is you know, at the very heart of why I existed,

380
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:28,920
Speaker 5: my rule and my twin Ruth Davis, who's the special

381
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:31,720
Speaker 5: representative of nature, why she exists. You know, we're there

382
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 5: because our foreign policy has to have climate and nature

383
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 5: at the heart of it, because we need those relationships

384
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 5: in order to be secure ourselves. So that's the reason

385
00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,679
Speaker 5: to go, right, We're not going to be safe and

386
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,840
Speaker 5: we're not going to be secure. We're not going to

387
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 5: prosper if we lose the tropical rainforests. It's as simple

388
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 5: as that. So I think that as we get into

389
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 5: implementation and accelerating implementation, it's actually easier to explain to

390
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 5: the world's public why we're there.

391
00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 4: You've got many examples that you could use to say, sure,

392
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 4: this should land right. The price of coffee has gone

393
00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:07,840
Speaker 4: up because there's been persistent drought in Brazil, which produces

394
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,159
Speaker 4: forty percent of the world's coffee. The price of electricity

395
00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 4: is high because we've had very high gas prices because

396
00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:20,280
Speaker 4: of the Russian attack on Ukraine, which have been brought

397
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,879
Speaker 4: down because of renewables. There are real world clear examples,

398
00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:28,199
Speaker 4: but they're not cutting through to people. What's missing.

399
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 2: Well.

400
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,119
Speaker 5: I think that we haven't in many cases taken the

401
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 5: time and the effort to convey those stories in ways

402
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 5: that people can hear. I mean, I think, you know,

403
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,720
Speaker 5: there's a danger in seeding the marketplace, the public marketplace,

404
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 5: to the scare mongering and the misinformation from the far

405
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 5: right and the far left. So I think that we

406
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 5: have a responsibility to tell these stories in the way

407
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 5: that people can understand. And I think in particular around

408
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 5: the issues around nature, I think people are inclined to

409
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,480
Speaker 5: understand that without nature, it's going to be very difficult

410
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:12,159
Speaker 5: to produce food, to have stable watersheds, to be able

411
00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 5: to balance the planet's own needs with hours, and that

412
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 5: we're not going to be resilient without nature. I mean,

413
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 5: I think there's a sensibility in people in countries around

414
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 5: the world that that makes sense to them.

415
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,199
Speaker 4: And so if the next ten years of COP are

416
00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 4: about implementing all the goals and the rules that have

417
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,679
Speaker 4: been put in place, this cop and what it produces

418
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 4: will be a test case for what next cops are

419
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 4: going to look like. What do you expect this coup

420
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 4: will achieve?

421
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 5: Well, so I think we'll go back to the theory

422
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 5: of change, right, theory of changes that we have an

423
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 5: energy transition that moves us towards clean energy, that that

424
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 5: clean energy allows us to electrify services to people and

425
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:55,879
Speaker 5: to the economy, which means that they can engage with

426
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 5: them benefit from all of the installed renewable energy. I

427
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 5: think of electrification transforms people's lives, right. And then at

428
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 5: the same time, we stop deforesting in particular tropical forests,

429
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,879
Speaker 5: and then we have to protect land usee et cetera.

430
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:11,239
Speaker 5: And then there's bits about the oceans or whatever. But

431
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 5: at the very center of that, then I think what

432
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:16,840
Speaker 5: I would expect from this COP is that first of all,

433
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 5: we have a COP where the rest of the world

434
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 5: says we're going to continue working on this. You know,

435
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 5: if you want to leave, leave, but we're going to

436
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 5: keep going. Then I would expect to see announcements around

437
00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 5: funding tropical forests. I'd expect to see investing in them

438
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 5: rather not funding them. I would expect to see statements

439
00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 5: around the growth of carbon markets, both what I would

440
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 5: call compliance markets, so trading systems and taxes, but also

441
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 5: I would expect to see, you know, statements around governments

442
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 5: leaning in to stimulate demand from the corporate sector for

443
00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,119
Speaker 5: voluntary markets as well. I think you'll see some agreements

444
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,200
Speaker 5: between countries as well using Article six, So a big

445
00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 5: thing about revenue into nature. I think you'll see the also,

446
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 5: then statements around methane. Methane or methane is the handbrake

447
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 5: that we can apply to global warming, because if we

448
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,679
Speaker 5: can deliver on all the pledges and the statements that

449
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 5: have been made, that's half a degree of warming in

450
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 5: a very short period of time. I think you'll see

451
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 5: then a big discussion, a big discussion, and hopefully a

452
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 5: positive resolution around adaptation finance. This has always played the

453
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 5: step sister to funding mitigation, but every country in the

454
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 5: world is experiencing really quite extreme impacts, and so how

455
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 5: we pay for that, And that means that we have

456
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 5: to take the adaptation finance discussion away from just the

457
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,359
Speaker 5: cops and the sort of highly sort of stylized debate

458
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 5: that we have there. Not to say that we walk

459
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 5: away from our commitments, We're good for that, but we

460
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 5: have to start having a conversation about how we help

461
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 5: people be resilient, which is about safety nets and social security,

462
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:57,959
Speaker 5: and how do you fund your health service and education service,

463
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 5: how do you help nature are resilience, which means funding nature,

464
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 5: And then how we help infrastructure be resilient. So you know,

465
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,399
Speaker 5: what is the cost of infrastructure which is resilient to

466
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,000
Speaker 5: the kinds of impacts that we see already, and who's

467
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 5: paying for that? And could we reward companies for investing

468
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 5: in making sure that that infrastructure is resilient rather than

469
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 5: sort of charging it as a cost. So there's all

470
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 5: kinds of issues which we never get to talk about

471
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 5: in the negotiation because it's sort of you know, rich

472
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 5: world versus poor world, you know, North versus South. But

473
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 5: I hope that we would actually come out with a

474
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 5: way forward on adaptation finance.

475
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 4: The dynamics in previous cops have been, as you point out,

476
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,679
Speaker 4: rich versus poor because there is a historical reason for it.

477
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 4: The rich countries absolutely emit more and are responsible for

478
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 4: most of climate change as it's occurred, and poor countries

479
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,639
Speaker 4: still have room to emit carbon but also have a

480
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 4: deep need for economic growth. In this COP, where the

481
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 4: US is not yet left but is leaving, the dynamics

482
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 4: will be much harder because it's not just about rich

483
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 4: versus poor. It's also about a rich country abandoning its

484
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 4: goal to act and other rich countries not yet standing

485
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 4: up and saying we can fill that gap.

486
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 5: Well, I don't think anybody can fill the US's gap,

487
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 5: but I think that we and other countries within the

488
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 5: EU and other developed countries, if that's a word that

489
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 5: still we can use. We'll be leaning in and saying

490
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 5: this is how we can use the international architecture, this

491
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 5: is how we can use our own resources. And then

492
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:44,320
Speaker 5: you've got a set of voluntary contributors right under the

493
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 5: Convention and under the Paris Agreement who are now really

494
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 5: leaning in and doing an extraordinary amount. So that's the

495
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 5: China's and the Saudi Arabias and the Indias of this world.

496
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 5: And then you've got sort of all of the multilateral processes.

497
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 5: And then you've got this leadership call from Mia Motley

498
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 5: in the Bridgetown Initiative, but you know, joined by most

499
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 5: other countries, which is to flip a switch or to

500
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 5: redesign the international architecture around the lack of fairness in

501
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 5: the way that the architecture works at the moment. So

502
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 5: you know, when you've got more cash leaving the Caribbean

503
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 5: than arriving into the Caribbean, then how on earth do

504
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 5: you build the fiscal space and the resilience for them

505
00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 5: to be able to withstand I mean, I mean, I'm

506
00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 5: talking to you today with Hurricane Melissa bearing down on Jamaica.

507
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 5: So you know, the US can absent itself from the

508
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 5: Paris Agreement. But look at the leadership from Singapore, look

509
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 5: at the leadership from China, from Saudi Arabia, from US,

510
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 5: from Germany. This is where it's growing. And I was

511
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 5: just at the Africa Climate Summit just a few weeks

512
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 5: ago in Alice Aberba, and you know, there weren't a

513
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 5: lot of Western journalists then there weren't a lot of

514
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 5: Western business leaders there either. But the message from African

515
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 5: leaders was like, this is our moment. Help us meet

516
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 5: our moment. This is good investment. You will be rewarded. Well,

517
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 5: don't misperceive the risk of investing in our infrastructure. Oh

518
00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 5: and by the way, adaptation is job rich. And you

519
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 5: know we've got lots of young people. So I'm not Pollyanna,

520
00:29:19,000 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 5: and I don't want to underestimate the impact of the

521
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 5: US's withdrawal. US finance, US business, Global finance, Global business

522
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 5: is dealing with the reality of what climate is doing

523
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 5: to our economy and that changes the opportunities as well

524
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 5: as produces more risks, right, So climate change has changed

525
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 5: our economic geography. That is reflected then in opportunity seeking

526
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 5: and risk management by the financial sector.

527
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 4: If the COP meeting plays out like the IMO did,

528
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 4: and we have seen failures at COP before the two

529
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 4: and nine Copenhagen Summit led to a lot of reflection

530
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,160
Speaker 4: and took a good time before multilateralism could work and

531
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 4: have a Paris Agreement agreed on twenty fifteen, six years later.

532
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,479
Speaker 4: If we see a failure like that at COP thirty,

533
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 4: how should the world react?

534
00:30:15,280 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 5: So I think that our Brazilian hosts and countries that

535
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 5: are prepared to lead and have led by the quality

536
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 5: of their NDCs, are very alive to the risk of

537
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,520
Speaker 5: a collapsed CARP or a COP that struggles to come

538
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 5: to an agreement. But that was then and this is

539
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 5: now in that this is about implementing what we've already agreed,

540
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 5: and so in some respects it is a different COP

541
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 5: And I think the real issue is how to communicate

542
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 5: that to the global public. You know, how to communicate that. Yeah,

543
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 5: there was a point in gathering and we didn't all

544
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,000
Speaker 5: need to get together because we do need to go

545
00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 5: further than what we promised to do. And by the way,

546
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,760
Speaker 5: there's all of this amazing stuff already happening. So you know,

547
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 5: in a moment of transition, whether you follow Gramchy or others, right,

548
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 5: that's good going on. There's lots of bad going on.

549
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 5: There's incoherence, but those two truths are living simultaneously, and

550
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 5: we've got to make sure that we actually deliver. But

551
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 5: I don't believe that one country can collapse this process.

552
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 5: First of all, I think that the IMO was a

553
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 5: salutary lesson to everybody. And secondly, I think the vested

554
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 5: interests of the majority of the world's population are in

555
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 5: finding a way to move through this transition in an affordable,

556
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 5: reliable way. There is no doubt that the science is

557
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 5: clear and that at some point people expect their leaders

558
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 5: to protect them.

559
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 4: So you've just come back from China. Now, as much

560
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 4: as we talk about the rich poor divide at COPS,

561
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 4: there's also the US versus China dynamics that play out

562
00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 4: at COP. In this case, the US is leaving and

563
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,239
Speaker 4: China is stepping up. They are going to put out

564
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,720
Speaker 4: an NDC. We understand they have a goal to reach

565
00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 4: that zero by twenty sixty. They have become an exported

566
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 4: giant on clean tech. How significant do you think China's

567
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 4: leadership will be for this.

568
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 5: Cop Yeah, so as the largest elector state, they play

569
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 5: an outsized role in terms of their influence on the

570
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 5: global economy and of the opportunity of clean energy and electrification.

571
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 5: And then politically they are emerging. So by that I

572
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 5: mean that they are bilaterally very strong when they want

573
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 5: to be, but they are emerging as a master of multinaturalism.

574
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 5: They are completely committed to the multnatural process. They have

575
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 5: been very vocal all the way through twenty twenty five

576
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 5: about their commitment to the Paris Agreement. They spoke out

577
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 5: strongly at the recent annual meetings of the IMF and

578
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 5: the World Bank, so that commitment is clear. But they

579
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 5: are just emerging as into a space where the world

580
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 5: expects them to sort of lead on the multilateral stage.

581
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,160
Speaker 5: I mean, obviously they've been members of the G twenty

582
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 5: for a number of years since the beginning. But it's

583
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 5: one thing to lead by lad it's another to lead multinaturally.

584
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 5: And I think that they're feeling their way a little bit.

585
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 5: So yes, they are clearly a very important and you know,

586
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 5: significant power how they play their cards, I think is

587
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 5: something that remains to be seen, but they will come,

588
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 5: you know, fully committed and that I think they're bringing

589
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 5: a large delegation of business leaders and other leaders as

590
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 5: well as the negotiators that we all know so well.

591
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 5: So yeah, committed multilateralists emerging as multilateral leaders.

592
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 4: So Brazil, as home to the Amazon, is working towards

593
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 4: getting this Tropical Forest Forever Facility funded, and that would

594
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 4: be a way to get countries with these forests a

595
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 4: revenue stream to protect those forests. But a lot of

596
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 4: the deforestation, not just in the Amazon, but around the

597
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:56,719
Speaker 4: world happens because people have needs for food and for fuel.

598
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 4: They'll either cut it to cook the food, or they'll

599
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:02,720
Speaker 4: cut it so that they can grow food on those lands.

600
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 4: What is the way to actually start to reduce emissions

601
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 4: from this land news sector that is so varied and

602
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 4: so important to people.

603
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 5: One of the reasons why I think Brazil's got credibility

604
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 5: in trying to build this fund, and of course it's

605
00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 5: only one part of the Amazon stewardship, is that it

606
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,319
Speaker 5: has shown that you can change the rate of deforestation

607
00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 5: very quickly. Right if you look at Lula's first term,

608
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 5: and also look at what he's done in his second term.

609
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 5: He has reversed accelerating rates of deforestation very quickly. And

610
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:35,800
Speaker 5: so for both the sort of Indonesia and the broader

611
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:39,800
Speaker 5: Southeast Asian basin, for the Congo basin and for the Amazon,

612
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 5: the politics are different, the array of countries that steward

613
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,879
Speaker 5: the forests are different. But if you can get at

614
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 5: scale payments, I mean fundamentally, it's payments for ecosystem services.

615
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 5: You get payments into countries and then to the people

616
00:34:55,600 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 5: most directly affected. So they're in this TFFF Future Forest

617
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 5: Fund or facility. If it goes forward, twenty percent of

618
00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 5: the revenues will go directly to indigenous peoples and to

619
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,400
Speaker 5: local communities in countries that qualify i e. They committed

620
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,240
Speaker 5: to integrity in the way in which they manage their forests.

621
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 5: Then that helps. But I think what the Brazilians are

622
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 5: trying to do is actually build a scaled fund, right,

623
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,320
Speaker 5: so not you know, handouts of aid money or whatever

624
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,799
Speaker 5: in small amounts to small communities, but actually you know

625
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 5: a significant revenue stream of hundreds of millions of dollars

626
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 5: and growing every year for the payment of those services

627
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 5: from the forest that are standing. So in some ways

628
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 5: it's not new, but the structure and the scale of

629
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 5: ambition and who would participate is new.

630
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 4: Thank you, Rachel, thank you, thank you for listening to Zero.

631
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: If you like this episode, please take a moment to

632
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify.

633
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar Boyd with additional help

634
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: from Anna Mazarakis. Our theme music is composed by Wonderly

635
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: Special Thanks to Samarsadi Moses Andam Laura Milan and Sharan

636
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: chan i'm Akshadrati Baksu