Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, this is it could happen here. I am
Speaker 1: Robert Evans. This is a podcast about things falling apart
Speaker 1: and sometimes how to put them back together. Today this
Speaker 1: is another episode about the war in Ukraine. UM. It's
Speaker 1: going to be eventually an interview with a Ukrainian anarchist
Speaker 1: militant who is fighting on behalf of of of Ukrainian
Speaker 1: people UM in that conflict. But here's a little introduction first.
Speaker 1: So anarchists are all about the elimination of hierarchy, and
Speaker 1: since the state tends to be the hierarchy ist thing around,
Speaker 1: most anarchist activists tend to either seek the destruction of
Speaker 1: the state or at least snatches of a life lived
Speaker 1: beyond its bounds. The most joyful moments, and anarchist organized
Speaker 1: protests tend to be those brief liberatory windows where anything
Speaker 1: seems possible, and even say middle class suburban moms might
Speaker 1: feel briefly like they could tear down the walls of
Speaker 1: a federal courthouse. So the idea of anarchists join and
Speaker 1: fighting in a national military, commanding and being commanded in
Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the state's defense forces feels like a
Speaker 1: pretty big contradiction. Yet, when the Russian Federation launched a
Speaker 1: massively expanded invasion of Ukraine in February two, many Ukrainian
Speaker 1: anarchists announced their intention to fight on the side of
Speaker 1: their government. Organizations like rev DIA formed militias which have
Speaker 1: been integrated into Ukrainian territorial defense forces. In one statement
Speaker 1: I found on the website enough is Enough, a militant
Speaker 1: representing rev DEA explained their feelings this way, Ukrainian anarchists
Speaker 1: are at war with Russian expansionism, fascists, and the government.
Speaker 1: They have created their own arm and call on us
Speaker 1: to join them. Every anarchist collective, an organization that understands
Speaker 1: the revolutionary task and the internationalists struggle, must transform its
Speaker 1: general anti war position into a position of engagement by
Speaker 1: participating in or strengthening the anarchist Ukrainian guerilla struggle without suspensions,
Speaker 1: and by attacking the Russian eco aomic and political power.
Speaker 1: Victory in arms for the anarchists in Ukraine who stand
Speaker 1: against Russian imperialism, fascist paramilitary groups and the democratic government
Speaker 1: in Kiev. Solidarity with the Russian and Belarusian anarchists who
Speaker 1: are crawling in the Democratic dungeons trying to stop the war.
Speaker 1: Let us give space to the people and not to
Speaker 1: the imperialist dreams that divide the planet into plots. We
Speaker 1: are forever with the invisible people of the world who
Speaker 1: are fighting for an inclusive, self organized and anti hierarchical world.
Speaker 1: So anarchists with Reveda and other Ukrainian organizations are very
Speaker 1: much acting in line with more than a century of
Speaker 1: anarchist tradition in Ukraine. During the Russian Revolution, famed Ukrainian
Speaker 1: anarchist war lord Nestor Makno was forced to make a
Speaker 1: tough decision. Ukrainian nationalists threatened the central government that had
Speaker 1: arisen after the fall of the Czar, and Makno and
Speaker 1: his comrades decided to defend the democratic socialist government against
Speaker 1: the nationalists. From the book Anarchy's Cossack quote that decision
Speaker 1: the local anarchists with a problem for it had them
Speaker 1: support governmental forces here, which, even if they were of
Speaker 1: the left, were nonetheless potential enemies of the masses autonomy.
Speaker 1: Makno reckoned at the time that as anarchists, we must,
Speaker 1: paradox or no paradox, make up our minds to form
Speaker 1: a united front with the governmental forces. Keeping faith with
Speaker 1: anarchist principles, we will find a way to rise above
Speaker 1: these contradictions, and once the dark forces of reaction have
Speaker 1: been smashed, we will broaden and deepen the course of
Speaker 1: the revolution for the greater good of an enslaved humanity.
Speaker 1: Roughly one month into the expanded Russian invasion, I had
Speaker 1: the chance to sit down and interview an anarchist in
Speaker 1: Ukraine who was participating in the resistance to Putin's regime.
Speaker 1: We conducted our interview over the course of several days
Speaker 1: as his fighting schedule allowed, and we did so over
Speaker 1: voice messages in signal. His audio quality was thankfully quite good.
Speaker 1: I have condensed some bits of the interview, particularly my questions,
Speaker 1: to make things easier to understand, and I moved some
Speaker 1: stuff around a little bit. I hope this is still
Speaker 1: pretty clear. Now here's our source introducing himself. What I
Speaker 1: would start you to tell about my story is um
Speaker 1: let's call me Iliah. I am an anarchist from some
Speaker 1: neighboring country, but live in Ukraine for civilary several years.
Speaker 1: I had to leave my homeland because of the political
Speaker 1: repressions against anarchists there. Ah and for me participation in
Speaker 1: this conflict. It has several dimensions, uh once like the
Speaker 1: the first and simplest thing is that Ukraine, even though
Speaker 1: it's like highly imperfect state like with clear new liberal
Speaker 1: stuff and some nationalists and varied influences in the politicum,
Speaker 1: but still is more like gray zone and more like
Speaker 1: um how to say, pluralistic and free space. The state
Speaker 1: here has much less control than in Russia and Belarus,
Speaker 1: for example. I wanted to start by asking them about
Speaker 1: the elephant in any room where people are discussing left
Speaker 1: wing resistance in Ukraine, the neo Nazi asof Battalion. I've
Speaker 1: think it's important for people to like to talk about
Speaker 1: as off and and whatnot and not whitewash what's going
Speaker 1: on there. But it strikes me that they have a
Speaker 1: really effective social media campaign and they're they're sneaking a
Speaker 1: lot of videos and a lot of combat footage and
Speaker 1: whatnot out into kind of Western mainstream media without people
Speaker 1: realizing it's Nazis. Well. To be honest, of course, uh,
Speaker 1: far right movement is much more massive in Ukraine than
Speaker 1: any libertarian leftist movements at the moment. This I think
Speaker 1: is obvious for you but at the same time sometimes
Speaker 1: UH conscious or unconscious pro Russian propagandists try to portray
Speaker 1: the situation as if it is Nazi state or something
Speaker 1: like all the resistance is far right or something, but
Speaker 1: actually general part of the state. And also, which is
Speaker 1: more important, of the grassroots popular resistance is just a
Speaker 1: political in sense that like most of the army, are
Speaker 1: not in the politics, even though of course we are
Speaker 1: aware that armies political institution itself. UH and especially all
Speaker 1: those people in the villages who are now taking up
Speaker 1: arms to guard their lands against the occupiers, they are
Speaker 1: also not politically affiliated. Somehow, Ilia and many of his
Speaker 1: comrades see anarchist participation in the struggle against Russia is
Speaker 1: necessary for two reasons. The most basic is that Putin's
Speaker 1: regime is a threat to their life and freedom to
Speaker 1: The secondary reason is that if they don't fight, they
Speaker 1: will have no ability to influence what happens in their
Speaker 1: country after the war to day. This invasion it really
Speaker 1: constructs the threat for the whole existence of this society,
Speaker 1: more society than to the states itself, because this is
Speaker 1: a kind of attempt to export this totalitarian hell which
Speaker 1: were constructed in Russia more or less. And to confront
Speaker 1: this just not let it happen is already a task
Speaker 1: I think. But of course to come to to defend
Speaker 1: some land against some occupation, for me is too simplistic
Speaker 1: for the anarchist and revolutionary approach. So there come like
Speaker 1: more detailed reason reasons. I would say, First of all,
Speaker 1: I really believe that if put In will be confronted
Speaker 1: intensively and successfully here, then it's very possible that it
Speaker 1: will break the spine of this regime in Russia, which
Speaker 1: may lead to revolutionary changes both in Russia and Belarus,
Speaker 1: because Belarusian dictatorship exists, like realize very much on put
Speaker 1: In support and so on. Uh. And another dimension is
Speaker 1: that any force which wants to be like really politically
Speaker 1: meaningful in Ukrainian society should take sides in this conflict.
Speaker 1: All people who say some dogmatic things like we are
Speaker 1: against all states against all wars. This is not enough. Now,
Speaker 1: this is not a position now, uh. And now this
Speaker 1: is really popular resistance. Like if you do not, if
Speaker 1: you do not join it for whatever reasons, then you
Speaker 1: exclude yourself from actual political process because the main questions
Speaker 1: will be like where are you and where were you?
Speaker 1: In these events, and of course the right side is
Speaker 1: to confront this imperialist occupation. UH. This can really give
Speaker 1: an opportunity UH to like for future and not not
Speaker 1: for future, actually already today for organizing and mobilization of
Speaker 1: revolutionary libertarian forces UM and constructing ourselves as some considerable
Speaker 1: significant movement. Like for example, now there is this unit
Speaker 1: of Territorial sealf Defense which enarchies participate in actively. UM.
Speaker 1: This is now already around fifty people. Well, it was
Speaker 1: like unimaginable the recent years and months to have some
Speaker 1: gathering of fifty enarchi, antifascialists and so on as some
Speaker 1: joint unit. But now this is the reality, and this
Speaker 1: mobilization is aid because of this invasion. Actually, so this
Speaker 1: is something that makes sense my opinion, and another interesting
Speaker 1: thing I think in context of comparing for example, UH
Speaker 1: far left and far right participating in Ukrainian political life
Speaker 1: and the current events that of course, for US any
Speaker 1: collaboration with the state is much more problematic than for
Speaker 1: the Nazis, because even they're like ideology and mindset as
Speaker 1: far as they can evaluate, it pretty allows them both
Speaker 1: any relations with the state structures and also any dirty schemes,
Speaker 1: both with the state, with the business and with criminal sphere.
Speaker 1: Like um UH, our approaches are much more puristic, which
Speaker 1: is partly good of course, but also have some consequences
Speaker 1: for us to be much less adoptable as the movement
Speaker 1: to the real social, political, economical realities. And for example,
Speaker 1: now currently this is still an question for anarchists should
Speaker 1: we join, for example, the Territorial Defense UH forces, which
Speaker 1: is even though somehow militia like localized institution, but still
Speaker 1: of course like state affiliated force orchestrated and arranged by
Speaker 1: the state and subordinated to state army hierarchical system UM.
Speaker 1: But we still believe that in current events UM, this
Speaker 1: participation like it UH less compromise us, but more give
Speaker 1: us the tools to organize, to get experience and to
Speaker 1: get subject tvty, if we can say so in English,
Speaker 1: like to to to become really an actor UM. And
Speaker 1: still it is within this frame is still possible to
Speaker 1: maintain UM political independence and even some sort of structural independence.
Speaker 1: So this is not just people are going and joining
Speaker 1: the army and that's it. They are now just units
Speaker 1: UM at least up to the moment. This is not
Speaker 1: our story and this is something, at least me personally
Speaker 1: reflecting on a lot. First, I would like you mentioned
Speaker 1: you came to Ukraine from a neighboring country where repression
Speaker 1: of anarchists was more severe. I am interested prior to
Speaker 1: you know, this stage of the invasion. Obviously the first
Speaker 1: invasion happened in to A fourteen, but prior to this escalation,
Speaker 1: how would you describe state repression against anarchists in Ukraine,
Speaker 1: the degree to which anarchists organizing was opposed by the state,
Speaker 1: by the police in Ukraine. UM. And then the follow
Speaker 1: up question to that would be, as you guys saw
Speaker 1: this war building, could you elaborate on some of the
Speaker 1: discussions that happened about what to do, about whether or
Speaker 1: not to form militious whether or not or to what
Speaker 1: extent to fight alongside the government. Um. So about state
Speaker 1: repressions against the anarchists in Ukraine in recent years, I
Speaker 1: would say that, they were, of course, um much less
Speaker 1: hard than for example, in Belarus and Russia. UM. Also
Speaker 1: because like for different reasons, because of in general, of
Speaker 1: course more pluralist or political culture and political situation in
Speaker 1: Ukraine in but also partly because anarchist movement in after
Speaker 1: my Land period was not that organized and not that
Speaker 1: combative to really draw drive attention of the state to itself.
Speaker 1: And also what I need to say that in maybe
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen and twenty, this attention grew dramatically after
Speaker 1: several direct actions were taken by anarchists, for example, some
Speaker 1: sabotage against UH cell phone towers of some Turkish affiliated
Speaker 1: company when Turkey invaded Rajava in UH the late autumn
Speaker 1: of two thousand nineteen and often and also several actions
Speaker 1: against some police stations UH. Some of these statements were
Speaker 1: placed in anarchist later website and telegram channel UH, and
Speaker 1: so police and secret services got, how to say, very
Speaker 1: energetic in their attempts to find the people who did this,
Speaker 1: even though they didn't succeed actually, so several house rates
Speaker 1: taking place. They also tried to depart one anarchist from
Speaker 1: Belarus Alexey Berrenkov, who UH stayed in Ukraine for several
Speaker 1: years while decided to move out from Lukashenko regime and
Speaker 1: so UH, but they didn't depart actually, and also their
Speaker 1: house rates were not successful, so they didn't succeed in
Speaker 1: the in their repressions. So the last couple of years,
Speaker 1: this picture, uh say, vegetarian picture of zero attention of
Speaker 1: the state to anarchist movement. It changed, so it started
Speaker 1: to be like a different way before it actually also
Speaker 1: was some direct actions believed to be related with revolutionary
Speaker 1: action anarchist group. It was, if I am not mistaken,
Speaker 1: around to Southern seventeen and so on. And this also
Speaker 1: were somehow um prosecuted by by Ukrainian secret services. Also
Speaker 1: about organized participation of different anarchist faction in the current
Speaker 1: resistance against the Putting East imperialist aggression. Like about the
Speaker 1: most organized initiative you all in most numbered you already know,
Speaker 1: But there are several others, smaller groups, like more like
Speaker 1: affinity groups or several friends participating in different units. We
Speaker 1: even cannot count it because we even don't know about
Speaker 1: everyone who participate. At this point, he started talking about
Speaker 1: an anarchist militant named Igor wala Chow, who had been
Speaker 1: killed by a rocket in Kharkiv a few days earlier.
Speaker 1: Before the war, wala Chow had expressed a desire to
Speaker 1: organize a network of co ops across Ukraine. He had
Speaker 1: also been active in providing support for anarchists jailed in Russia.
Speaker 1: Ilia referred to him as having been martyred. He was participating.
Speaker 1: I don't know, either individually or with some of his
Speaker 1: friends from Kharkiv, but for example, I knew nothing about
Speaker 1: their group and their participations. There is also Black Flag,
Speaker 1: anarchist group from Lviv which now, as far as I know,
Speaker 1: participating in territorial self defense of Kiev. At least they
Speaker 1: released several photos and some short statement. Uh, this is
Speaker 1: something organized which I know about, and apart from that,
Speaker 1: I know, just as I already telled told you, several
Speaker 1: affinity groups, groups of friends. The overall picture he painted
Speaker 1: of anarchist resistance in Ukraine was extremely atomized, due in
Speaker 1: part to pre war concerns about avoiding state repression and
Speaker 1: the myriad doctrinal differences between different kinds of anarchists. The
Speaker 1: war seems to have had a catalyzing effect which has
Speaker 1: made larger militant anarchist organizing possible for the first time
Speaker 1: in recent memory. Elijah was cautiously optimistic about this, but
Speaker 1: he and his comrades also recognized a danger here. We
Speaker 1: are trying to avoid attention from the state services, from
Speaker 1: secret services. Uh, even though we still have to collaborate uh,
Speaker 1: somehow with the military hierarchy and so on in this situation.
Speaker 1: But of course we understand that if we will attract
Speaker 1: undesirable attention, then probably UH sound forces would try to
Speaker 1: destroy us or somehow assimilate subjugate us. None of the
Speaker 1: scenarios are good for us, and were aware of it.
Speaker 1: So we try to have some publicity and at the
Speaker 1: same time to act ourselves in the way which will
Speaker 1: not drive repressive attention to us. Like immediately, so up
Speaker 1: to now, within this frame of territorial defense, UH and
Speaker 1: UH like some civil volunteer activities and some other quite
Speaker 1: conventional activities of participating in this conflict against the putting
Speaker 1: east Side, we believe that we can take the ground
Speaker 1: for the new conceptions and programs of lack of libertarian cause,
Speaker 1: and also some organizational developments like some organized structure which
Speaker 1: are of course not necessarily should be illegal from from
Speaker 1: the very first steps, but to establish some organizational basis
Speaker 1: and maybe hopefully ideological basis which will help us to
Speaker 1: act more actively, UH, both during the war and after war.
Speaker 1: Could you go into a little more detail about the
Speaker 1: ways in which you all do your units do kind
Speaker 1: of interface with the state I went on to ask
Speaker 1: how they organized their combat units and whether or not
Speaker 1: this reflected their broader beliefs about horizontal organizing. His basic
Speaker 1: answer was that the militias have to operate within a
Speaker 1: military command structure and thus have to be broadly organized
Speaker 1: in the same way conventional military units are. However, being
Speaker 1: a regular their life outside of battle is much less
Speaker 1: regimented than what regular soldiers experience. So about military hierarchy
Speaker 1: in general, of course, territorial defense forces are set by
Speaker 1: the state and they are included into the general structure
Speaker 1: of a military hierarchy of regular army. Uh. In this sense,
Speaker 1: we are of course generally not autonomous, and what is
Speaker 1: what's been issued by superior command we should implement in
Speaker 1: life and should um fulfill these orders. However, now territorial
Speaker 1: defense forces, I would not speak about all of them
Speaker 1: because I limited since the very start of war, within
Speaker 1: my own experience with this unit. These forces have like
Speaker 1: a lot of time for constructing itself, like our internal life,
Speaker 1: not that much regulated by the higher command. And also
Speaker 1: there is a sort of space of communication with some
Speaker 1: commanders which are a little bit higher than us. So
Speaker 1: we have like good people who our comrades who set
Speaker 1: this opportunity for us to get organized within this frame
Speaker 1: of territorial defense. This was just our old friends who
Speaker 1: decided to join some territorial defense structure as officers already
Speaker 1: before uh this situation started to happen. Um so, I
Speaker 1: think these people do really good job, and they provide
Speaker 1: for us options to feel ourselves like comparatively free. Of course,
Speaker 1: not in operational sense, because uh, like operational frame is
Speaker 1: being set by the higher command and like as one picture,
Speaker 1: one scheme, and in this aspect we of course just
Speaker 1: the one of the elements of the general plan of
Speaker 1: the fighting. Uh they put in regime invasion here. Um so,
Speaker 1: I mean yes, as a unit we are governed by
Speaker 1: the military command. But this is really rarely that we
Speaker 1: see anyone apart anyone of some officers or i know,
Speaker 1: generals or somebody else from above the military hierarchy. We
Speaker 1: here now occupied with the training, with the organizational constructing
Speaker 1: and with like improving our internal life, not being like
Speaker 1: really orchestrated by any military military hierarchy people. Um so,
Speaker 1: what about internal structure. It is still supposed to be
Speaker 1: organized on the traditional army scheme, so every section has
Speaker 1: a commander. Unit in general has a commander, and this
Speaker 1: is not an elected people. This is not like really
Speaker 1: controlled from from below people. UM. Maybe unfortunately or maybe
Speaker 1: this is necessary in the current situation. This is really
Speaker 1: hard to estimate to evaluate at the moment. UH. In
Speaker 1: this manner, our internal structure in sense of like military
Speaker 1: structure is more or less traditional for the territorial defense.
Speaker 1: At the same time, of course, we have more democratic
Speaker 1: internal culture. In general, territorial defenses people mostly organized on
Speaker 1: local basis and also out of volunteers. So people who
Speaker 1: came here are on their good will and not on
Speaker 1: some conscript, conscription or some contract which gives you a
Speaker 1: certain money or privileges. So because of this you already
Speaker 1: supposed to be somehow more free uh and more up
Speaker 1: to express your opinions, UM and so on. And of
Speaker 1: course we as somehow um leftist affiliated anarchist unit. Of
Speaker 1: course we encourage the internal discussion. Everyone including all the
Speaker 1: commanders inside our regiment are subjects to critics and discussion UM,
Speaker 1: even though maybe final words in the operational UH questions
Speaker 1: are up to these people. UH. And also it's important
Speaker 1: that we maintain a total political autonomy in sense that
Speaker 1: all the groups and individuals who constructs, who construct the
Speaker 1: unit we are part of, they like absolutely free to
Speaker 1: express their analysis, political analysis, and conceptual conceptualization of both
Speaker 1: these events and our participation in them are according to
Speaker 1: their like analysis, their attitude, and so on. I also
Speaker 1: asked what it was like to fight ostensibly on the
Speaker 1: same side as neo Nazi elements like asof While Iliah
Speaker 1: and his unit are not anywhere close to the as
Speaker 1: Off battalion, I wanted to know how he and his
Speaker 1: comrades dealt with the weird reality of being in the
Speaker 1: same broadside as people they might have battled in the street.
Speaker 1: At one point, I would say that before war, of course,
Speaker 1: there was a lot of tensions between UH fascists and US,
Speaker 1: not directly with us off because as of his UM
Speaker 1: like military unit like this is not the guys you
Speaker 1: meet and fight in the streets, but of course there
Speaker 1: is like they tried to set like their own how
Speaker 1: to say, mafia political empire, I would call it, or
Speaker 1: mafia like they had some businesses, some criminal stuff, some
Speaker 1: patronage from the Interior Ministry UH and also very different
Speaker 1: how to say, far right groups which the leaders of
Speaker 1: so called as of movement, which is much broader than
Speaker 1: as of battalion itself. They tried to utilized and instrumentalized
Speaker 1: to reach their own goals. And with some of these groups,
Speaker 1: of course we had like just street fights. For example,
Speaker 1: the elements closed to this as of movement, they try
Speaker 1: to influence a lot the Belarusian diaspora, like a position
Speaker 1: of diaspora in Kiev. For example, in the one year
Speaker 1: anniversary of the protests of twenty twenty in Belarus uh
Speaker 1: there were there was fight in Kiev between anarchists who
Speaker 1: came to participate in demonstrations in this demonstration and the
Speaker 1: Nazis who attacked them in like aiming to somehow push
Speaker 1: them out from the Belarusian movement to influence it in
Speaker 1: their own way. Like also just usual street confrontation also
Speaker 1: took place. All this time, there is quite visible and
Speaker 1: active Antifa movement in Kiev which confronted Nazis on the
Speaker 1: streets and blocked sometimes uh UM several of their like
Speaker 1: initiatives and so on. And also of course informational and
Speaker 1: propaganda struggle was held by us by us UH during
Speaker 1: all this time since my then and of course before
Speaker 1: as well, about the current military situation, like, of course
Speaker 1: we are now actually part of one army with right
Speaker 1: sector as Off and so on. People, we are under
Speaker 1: the same military command UH, and if we will be
Speaker 1: tasked to fight in the same place the same enemy,
Speaker 1: we will be actually like the same um like part
Speaker 1: of the barricade. But this situation we need to deal with,
Speaker 1: like there are different opinions amongst our comrades and here
Speaker 1: about as Off and all the far rightists. They differs
Speaker 1: from that they are actually our enemies like both now
Speaker 1: and also in any future Ukraine, in any future scenario,
Speaker 1: because these people promote like quite obviously absolutely opposite political
Speaker 1: and social goals. Then we um Other people say that
Speaker 1: another like other people say that now there is how
Speaker 1: to say, general deadly threat we are facing and we
Speaker 1: should fight regardless of left and right and something like
Speaker 1: this to fight the imperialist invasion. But I personally me
Speaker 1: I do not support this second assumption and position. I
Speaker 1: see this quite not really politically smart at my opinion.
Speaker 1: But what we here can agree on is that if
Speaker 1: we want to confront uh Nazis, UH and far right
Speaker 1: parts of the Ukrainian political and also military spectrum, then
Speaker 1: we need to develop our own strong structure, our own
Speaker 1: strong actor uh. And also this um somehow connected with
Speaker 1: the question about p R you mentioned that like we
Speaker 1: need our own pr our own publicity and media work
Speaker 1: and also our first of all, our own conceptions and
Speaker 1: ideological blueprints which we can um suggect to Ukrainian society
Speaker 1: and present both inside Ukraine and abroad. And this is
Speaker 1: the work, this is the challenge and duty which we
Speaker 1: need to fulfill and hopefully like not hopefully, but actually
Speaker 1: we are working on this already now. So if you
Speaker 1: want to combat us off now is uh not the
Speaker 1: time maybe to accuse them uh in some public statements,
Speaker 1: but this is time to develop alternative structure which will
Speaker 1: be able to really confront this reactionary currency. It could
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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening