WEBVTT - Interview with an Anarchist Fighting in Ukraine 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:07.520 Hey, everybody, this is it could happen here. I am 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:10.320 Robert Evans. This is a podcast about things falling apart 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:13.000 and sometimes how to put them back together. Today this 0:00:13.080 --> 0:00:16.520 is another episode about the war in Ukraine. UM. It's 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:20.600 going to be eventually an interview with a Ukrainian anarchist 0:00:20.680 --> 0:00:25.000 militant who is fighting on behalf of of of Ukrainian 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:30.280 people UM in that conflict. But here's a little introduction first. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:34.120 So anarchists are all about the elimination of hierarchy, and 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:37.080 since the state tends to be the hierarchy ist thing around, 0:00:37.440 --> 0:00:40.400 most anarchist activists tend to either seek the destruction of 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:42.960 the state or at least snatches of a life lived 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:46.800 beyond its bounds. The most joyful moments, and anarchist organized 0:00:46.840 --> 0:00:50.680 protests tend to be those brief liberatory windows where anything 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:53.959 seems possible, and even say middle class suburban moms might 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:56.280 feel briefly like they could tear down the walls of 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.200 a federal courthouse. So the idea of anarchists join and 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.480 fighting in a national military, commanding and being commanded in 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.480 the hierarchy of the state's defense forces feels like a 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:10.560 pretty big contradiction. Yet, when the Russian Federation launched a 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:15.800 massively expanded invasion of Ukraine in February two, many Ukrainian 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:18.840 anarchists announced their intention to fight on the side of 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:23.240 their government. Organizations like rev DIA formed militias which have 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:28.000 been integrated into Ukrainian territorial defense forces. In one statement 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:30.679 I found on the website enough is Enough, a militant 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:36.040 representing rev DEA explained their feelings this way, Ukrainian anarchists 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.560 are at war with Russian expansionism, fascists, and the government. 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.200 They have created their own arm and call on us 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.880 to join them. Every anarchist collective, an organization that understands 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.880 the revolutionary task and the internationalists struggle, must transform its 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.320 general anti war position into a position of engagement by 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:58.480 participating in or strengthening the anarchist Ukrainian guerilla struggle without suspensions, 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.240 and by attacking the Russian eco aomic and political power. 0:02:01.800 --> 0:02:04.400 Victory in arms for the anarchists in Ukraine who stand 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:09.240 against Russian imperialism, fascist paramilitary groups and the democratic government 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:12.960 in Kiev. Solidarity with the Russian and Belarusian anarchists who 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.920 are crawling in the Democratic dungeons trying to stop the war. 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:18.640 Let us give space to the people and not to 0:02:18.680 --> 0:02:21.840 the imperialist dreams that divide the planet into plots. We 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:24.240 are forever with the invisible people of the world who 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:28.160 are fighting for an inclusive, self organized and anti hierarchical world. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.240 So anarchists with Reveda and other Ukrainian organizations are very 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.520 much acting in line with more than a century of 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:40.320 anarchist tradition in Ukraine. During the Russian Revolution, famed Ukrainian 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.400 anarchist war lord Nestor Makno was forced to make a 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:47.800 tough decision. Ukrainian nationalists threatened the central government that had 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:50.520 arisen after the fall of the Czar, and Makno and 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.480 his comrades decided to defend the democratic socialist government against 0:02:54.560 --> 0:02:59.720 the nationalists. From the book Anarchy's Cossack quote that decision 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:02.320 the local anarchists with a problem for it had them 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.120 support governmental forces here, which, even if they were of 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.760 the left, were nonetheless potential enemies of the masses autonomy. 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.320 Makno reckoned at the time that as anarchists, we must, 0:03:12.560 --> 0:03:15.519 paradox or no paradox, make up our minds to form 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:18.679 a united front with the governmental forces. Keeping faith with 0:03:18.720 --> 0:03:21.560 anarchist principles, we will find a way to rise above 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:25.000 these contradictions, and once the dark forces of reaction have 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:27.880 been smashed, we will broaden and deepen the course of 0:03:27.880 --> 0:03:30.720 the revolution for the greater good of an enslaved humanity. 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:35.440 Roughly one month into the expanded Russian invasion, I had 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:37.800 the chance to sit down and interview an anarchist in 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.320 Ukraine who was participating in the resistance to Putin's regime. 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:44.760 We conducted our interview over the course of several days 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:47.560 as his fighting schedule allowed, and we did so over 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.760 voice messages in signal. His audio quality was thankfully quite good. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:55.360 I have condensed some bits of the interview, particularly my questions, 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:57.880 to make things easier to understand, and I moved some 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.520 stuff around a little bit. I hope this is still 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:04.640 pretty clear. Now here's our source introducing himself. What I 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:08.440 would start you to tell about my story is um 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:13.360 let's call me Iliah. I am an anarchist from some 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:18.760 neighboring country, but live in Ukraine for civilary several years. 0:04:19.560 --> 0:04:22.760 I had to leave my homeland because of the political 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:28.320 repressions against anarchists there. Ah and for me participation in 0:04:28.360 --> 0:04:36.599 this conflict. It has several dimensions, uh once like the 0:04:36.600 --> 0:04:41.599 the first and simplest thing is that Ukraine, even though 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:47.280 it's like highly imperfect state like with clear new liberal 0:04:47.320 --> 0:04:53.440 stuff and some nationalists and varied influences in the politicum, 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:58.280 but still is more like gray zone and more like 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:02.719 um how to say, pluralistic and free space. The state 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:06.200 here has much less control than in Russia and Belarus, 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.159 for example. I wanted to start by asking them about 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:11.839 the elephant in any room where people are discussing left 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:16.680 wing resistance in Ukraine, the neo Nazi asof Battalion. I've 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:19.640 think it's important for people to like to talk about 0:05:19.680 --> 0:05:24.320 as off and and whatnot and not whitewash what's going 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:27.760 on there. But it strikes me that they have a 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:31.359 really effective social media campaign and they're they're sneaking a 0:05:31.400 --> 0:05:33.720 lot of videos and a lot of combat footage and 0:05:33.720 --> 0:05:37.840 whatnot out into kind of Western mainstream media without people 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:41.640 realizing it's Nazis. Well. To be honest, of course, uh, 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.760 far right movement is much more massive in Ukraine than 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:51.120 any libertarian leftist movements at the moment. This I think 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:55.520 is obvious for you but at the same time sometimes 0:05:55.839 --> 0:06:00.760 UH conscious or unconscious pro Russian propagandists try to portray 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:04.839 the situation as if it is Nazi state or something 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.560 like all the resistance is far right or something, but 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:12.359 actually general part of the state. And also, which is 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:16.560 more important, of the grassroots popular resistance is just a 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:20.880 political in sense that like most of the army, are 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:23.960 not in the politics, even though of course we are 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:29.560 aware that armies political institution itself. UH and especially all 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.160 those people in the villages who are now taking up 0:06:33.320 --> 0:06:37.840 arms to guard their lands against the occupiers, they are 0:06:37.880 --> 0:06:42.800 also not politically affiliated. Somehow, Ilia and many of his 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:46.560 comrades see anarchist participation in the struggle against Russia is 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.960 necessary for two reasons. The most basic is that Putin's 0:06:49.960 --> 0:06:52.080 regime is a threat to their life and freedom to 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.320 The secondary reason is that if they don't fight, they 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.880 will have no ability to influence what happens in their 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:02.320 country after the war to day. This invasion it really 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:07.560 constructs the threat for the whole existence of this society, 0:07:07.600 --> 0:07:12.240 more society than to the states itself, because this is 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:17.080 a kind of attempt to export this totalitarian hell which 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:21.960 were constructed in Russia more or less. And to confront 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:26.600 this just not let it happen is already a task 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:31.080 I think. But of course to come to to defend 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:38.120 some land against some occupation, for me is too simplistic 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:43.520 for the anarchist and revolutionary approach. So there come like 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:49.080 more detailed reason reasons. I would say, First of all, 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:53.920 I really believe that if put In will be confronted 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:59.160 intensively and successfully here, then it's very possible that it 0:07:59.240 --> 0:08:04.440 will break the spine of this regime in Russia, which 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:09.280 may lead to revolutionary changes both in Russia and Belarus, 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:17.120 because Belarusian dictatorship exists, like realize very much on put 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:21.760 In support and so on. Uh. And another dimension is 0:08:21.840 --> 0:08:26.480 that any force which wants to be like really politically 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:32.640 meaningful in Ukrainian society should take sides in this conflict. 0:08:32.760 --> 0:08:36.880 All people who say some dogmatic things like we are 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.440 against all states against all wars. This is not enough. Now, 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:43.520 this is not a position now, uh. And now this 0:08:43.600 --> 0:08:48.439 is really popular resistance. Like if you do not, if 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.560 you do not join it for whatever reasons, then you 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:58.119 exclude yourself from actual political process because the main questions 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:01.560 will be like where are you and where were you? 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:04.320 In these events, and of course the right side is 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:09.040 to confront this imperialist occupation. UH. This can really give 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:14.280 an opportunity UH to like for future and not not 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:18.559 for future, actually already today for organizing and mobilization of 0:09:18.760 --> 0:09:26.280 revolutionary libertarian forces UM and constructing ourselves as some considerable 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:31.439 significant movement. Like for example, now there is this unit 0:09:31.520 --> 0:09:37.000 of Territorial sealf Defense which enarchies participate in actively. UM. 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:41.600 This is now already around fifty people. Well, it was 0:09:43.480 --> 0:09:49.080 like unimaginable the recent years and months to have some 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:55.439 gathering of fifty enarchi, antifascialists and so on as some 0:09:55.720 --> 0:09:58.800 joint unit. But now this is the reality, and this 0:09:58.920 --> 0:10:04.320 mobilization is aid because of this invasion. Actually, so this 0:10:04.440 --> 0:10:09.800 is something that makes sense my opinion, and another interesting 0:10:09.920 --> 0:10:15.320 thing I think in context of comparing for example, UH 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:21.520 far left and far right participating in Ukrainian political life 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:25.600 and the current events that of course, for US any 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:30.360 collaboration with the state is much more problematic than for 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:36.319 the Nazis, because even they're like ideology and mindset as 0:10:36.320 --> 0:10:40.439 far as they can evaluate, it pretty allows them both 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:45.680 any relations with the state structures and also any dirty schemes, 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:50.480 both with the state, with the business and with criminal sphere. 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:58.960 Like um UH, our approaches are much more puristic, which 0:10:59.360 --> 0:11:03.640 is partly good of course, but also have some consequences 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:07.840 for us to be much less adoptable as the movement 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:13.400 to the real social, political, economical realities. And for example, 0:11:13.480 --> 0:11:18.920 now currently this is still an question for anarchists should 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:23.800 we join, for example, the Territorial Defense UH forces, which 0:11:23.840 --> 0:11:29.320 is even though somehow militia like localized institution, but still 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:35.480 of course like state affiliated force orchestrated and arranged by 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:42.480 the state and subordinated to state army hierarchical system UM. 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:47.000 But we still believe that in current events UM, this 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:53.680 participation like it UH less compromise us, but more give 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:58.920 us the tools to organize, to get experience and to 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.040 get subject tvty, if we can say so in English, 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:07.040 like to to to become really an actor UM. And 0:12:07.400 --> 0:12:10.160 still it is within this frame is still possible to 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:18.520 maintain UM political independence and even some sort of structural independence. 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:21.480 So this is not just people are going and joining 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:24.800 the army and that's it. They are now just units 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.599 UM at least up to the moment. This is not 0:12:27.720 --> 0:12:32.880 our story and this is something, at least me personally 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:47.280 reflecting on a lot. First, I would like you mentioned 0:12:47.320 --> 0:12:51.560 you came to Ukraine from a neighboring country where repression 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.080 of anarchists was more severe. I am interested prior to 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.120 you know, this stage of the invasion. Obviously the first 0:12:59.120 --> 0:13:02.400 invasion happened in to A fourteen, but prior to this escalation, 0:13:03.679 --> 0:13:08.120 how would you describe state repression against anarchists in Ukraine, 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.000 the degree to which anarchists organizing was opposed by the state, 0:13:12.040 --> 0:13:15.800 by the police in Ukraine. UM. And then the follow 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.400 up question to that would be, as you guys saw 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:23.120 this war building, could you elaborate on some of the 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:26.000 discussions that happened about what to do, about whether or 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:28.240 not to form militious whether or not or to what 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:34.040 extent to fight alongside the government. Um. So about state 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:39.079 repressions against the anarchists in Ukraine in recent years, I 0:13:39.160 --> 0:13:43.920 would say that, they were, of course, um much less 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:49.280 hard than for example, in Belarus and Russia. UM. Also 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:54.520 because like for different reasons, because of in general, of 0:13:54.559 --> 0:13:59.600 course more pluralist or political culture and political situation in 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:06.440 Ukraine in but also partly because anarchist movement in after 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.480 my Land period was not that organized and not that 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:16.280 combative to really draw drive attention of the state to itself. 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:22.160 And also what I need to say that in maybe 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:31.240 two thousand nineteen and twenty, this attention grew dramatically after 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:35.760 several direct actions were taken by anarchists, for example, some 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:41.119 sabotage against UH cell phone towers of some Turkish affiliated 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:46.840 company when Turkey invaded Rajava in UH the late autumn 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:51.080 of two thousand nineteen and often and also several actions 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:57.120 against some police stations UH. Some of these statements were 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:03.720 placed in anarchist later website and telegram channel UH, and 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:09.360 so police and secret services got, how to say, very 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:14.120 energetic in their attempts to find the people who did this, 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:19.400 even though they didn't succeed actually, so several house rates 0:15:19.440 --> 0:15:25.680 taking place. They also tried to depart one anarchist from 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:31.440 Belarus Alexey Berrenkov, who UH stayed in Ukraine for several 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:38.760 years while decided to move out from Lukashenko regime and 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:42.960 so UH, but they didn't depart actually, and also their 0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.680 house rates were not successful, so they didn't succeed in 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.960 the in their repressions. So the last couple of years, 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:54.960 this picture, uh say, vegetarian picture of zero attention of 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:59.600 the state to anarchist movement. It changed, so it started 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:03.120 to be like a different way before it actually also 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:08.800 was some direct actions believed to be related with revolutionary 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:13.120 action anarchist group. It was, if I am not mistaken, 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:18.840 around to Southern seventeen and so on. And this also 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:27.320 were somehow um prosecuted by by Ukrainian secret services. Also 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:34.120 about organized participation of different anarchist faction in the current 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:39.560 resistance against the Putting East imperialist aggression. Like about the 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:44.120 most organized initiative you all in most numbered you already know, 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:50.080 But there are several others, smaller groups, like more like 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:55.720 affinity groups or several friends participating in different units. We 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:59.360 even cannot count it because we even don't know about 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:02.960 everyone who participate. At this point, he started talking about 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.000 an anarchist militant named Igor wala Chow, who had been 0:17:06.080 --> 0:17:08.920 killed by a rocket in Kharkiv a few days earlier. 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:11.879 Before the war, wala Chow had expressed a desire to 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.000 organize a network of co ops across Ukraine. He had 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.360 also been active in providing support for anarchists jailed in Russia. 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:22.680 Ilia referred to him as having been martyred. He was participating. 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:26.199 I don't know, either individually or with some of his 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:29.679 friends from Kharkiv, but for example, I knew nothing about 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:34.639 their group and their participations. There is also Black Flag, 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:39.520 anarchist group from Lviv which now, as far as I know, 0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:44.480 participating in territorial self defense of Kiev. At least they 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:48.800 released several photos and some short statement. Uh, this is 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:51.920 something organized which I know about, and apart from that, 0:17:52.200 --> 0:17:57.200 I know, just as I already telled told you, several 0:17:58.000 --> 0:18:01.560 affinity groups, groups of friends. The overall picture he painted 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.119 of anarchist resistance in Ukraine was extremely atomized, due in 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.040 part to pre war concerns about avoiding state repression and 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:12.240 the myriad doctrinal differences between different kinds of anarchists. The 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.159 war seems to have had a catalyzing effect which has 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:19.000 made larger militant anarchist organizing possible for the first time 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:23.240 in recent memory. Elijah was cautiously optimistic about this, but 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.640 he and his comrades also recognized a danger here. We 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:31.000 are trying to avoid attention from the state services, from 0:18:31.040 --> 0:18:36.840 secret services. Uh, even though we still have to collaborate uh, 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:41.800 somehow with the military hierarchy and so on in this situation. 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:47.119 But of course we understand that if we will attract 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:51.840 undesirable attention, then probably UH sound forces would try to 0:18:52.480 --> 0:18:57.639 destroy us or somehow assimilate subjugate us. None of the 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.480 scenarios are good for us, and were aware of it. 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:05.720 So we try to have some publicity and at the 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:10.480 same time to act ourselves in the way which will 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:16.760 not drive repressive attention to us. Like immediately, so up 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:20.719 to now, within this frame of territorial defense, UH and 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:26.320 UH like some civil volunteer activities and some other quite 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:32.119 conventional activities of participating in this conflict against the putting 0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:37.520 east Side, we believe that we can take the ground 0:19:38.280 --> 0:19:44.280 for the new conceptions and programs of lack of libertarian cause, 0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:50.880 and also some organizational developments like some organized structure which 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:54.280 are of course not necessarily should be illegal from from 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:59.720 the very first steps, but to establish some organizational basis 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:06.600 and maybe hopefully ideological basis which will help us to 0:20:06.640 --> 0:20:11.160 act more actively, UH, both during the war and after war. 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:14.040 Could you go into a little more detail about the 0:20:14.080 --> 0:20:16.760 ways in which you all do your units do kind 0:20:16.800 --> 0:20:19.840 of interface with the state I went on to ask 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.439 how they organized their combat units and whether or not 0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.639 this reflected their broader beliefs about horizontal organizing. His basic 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:29.119 answer was that the militias have to operate within a 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:32.879 military command structure and thus have to be broadly organized 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.680 in the same way conventional military units are. However, being 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.359 a regular their life outside of battle is much less 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:45.880 regimented than what regular soldiers experience. So about military hierarchy 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:51.920 in general, of course, territorial defense forces are set by 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:57.200 the state and they are included into the general structure 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:01.240 of a military hierarchy of regular army. Uh. In this sense, 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:06.439 we are of course generally not autonomous, and what is 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:12.200 what's been issued by superior command we should implement in 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:18.960 life and should um fulfill these orders. However, now territorial 0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:22.600 defense forces, I would not speak about all of them 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:27.600 because I limited since the very start of war, within 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:36.400 my own experience with this unit. These forces have like 0:21:36.520 --> 0:21:41.600 a lot of time for constructing itself, like our internal life, 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:47.840 not that much regulated by the higher command. And also 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:53.240 there is a sort of space of communication with some 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:57.280 commanders which are a little bit higher than us. So 0:21:57.359 --> 0:22:02.399 we have like good people who our comrades who set 0:22:02.600 --> 0:22:05.960 this opportunity for us to get organized within this frame 0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:10.080 of territorial defense. This was just our old friends who 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:18.240 decided to join some territorial defense structure as officers already 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:22.479 before uh this situation started to happen. Um so, I 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:27.720 think these people do really good job, and they provide 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:35.240 for us options to feel ourselves like comparatively free. Of course, 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:40.720 not in operational sense, because uh, like operational frame is 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:44.360 being set by the higher command and like as one picture, 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:49.680 one scheme, and in this aspect we of course just 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:53.280 the one of the elements of the general plan of 0:22:53.320 --> 0:22:58.600 the fighting. Uh they put in regime invasion here. Um so, 0:22:58.760 --> 0:23:04.720 I mean yes, as a unit we are governed by 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.439 the military command. But this is really rarely that we 0:23:08.560 --> 0:23:15.080 see anyone apart anyone of some officers or i know, 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:20.679 generals or somebody else from above the military hierarchy. We 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:26.560 here now occupied with the training, with the organizational constructing 0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:32.879 and with like improving our internal life, not being like 0:23:33.119 --> 0:23:45.439 really orchestrated by any military military hierarchy people. Um so, 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:49.280 what about internal structure. It is still supposed to be 0:23:49.400 --> 0:23:55.960 organized on the traditional army scheme, so every section has 0:23:56.000 --> 0:24:00.800 a commander. Unit in general has a commander, and this 0:24:00.920 --> 0:24:03.800 is not an elected people. This is not like really 0:24:03.840 --> 0:24:10.080 controlled from from below people. UM. Maybe unfortunately or maybe 0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:12.800 this is necessary in the current situation. This is really 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:16.679 hard to estimate to evaluate at the moment. UH. In 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:21.200 this manner, our internal structure in sense of like military 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:25.160 structure is more or less traditional for the territorial defense. 0:24:26.040 --> 0:24:29.639 At the same time, of course, we have more democratic 0:24:29.680 --> 0:24:35.960 internal culture. In general, territorial defenses people mostly organized on 0:24:36.119 --> 0:24:40.600 local basis and also out of volunteers. So people who 0:24:41.080 --> 0:24:44.880 came here are on their good will and not on 0:24:45.040 --> 0:24:49.159 some conscript, conscription or some contract which gives you a 0:24:49.240 --> 0:24:53.920 certain money or privileges. So because of this you already 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:58.479 supposed to be somehow more free uh and more up 0:24:58.600 --> 0:25:02.320 to express your opinions, UM and so on. And of 0:25:02.359 --> 0:25:10.320 course we as somehow um leftist affiliated anarchist unit. Of 0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:17.080 course we encourage the internal discussion. Everyone including all the 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:24.080 commanders inside our regiment are subjects to critics and discussion UM, 0:25:24.119 --> 0:25:29.560 even though maybe final words in the operational UH questions 0:25:30.160 --> 0:25:33.800 are up to these people. UH. And also it's important 0:25:33.840 --> 0:25:37.920 that we maintain a total political autonomy in sense that 0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:42.359 all the groups and individuals who constructs, who construct the 0:25:42.480 --> 0:25:47.680 unit we are part of, they like absolutely free to 0:25:48.200 --> 0:25:56.600 express their analysis, political analysis, and conceptual conceptualization of both 0:25:56.760 --> 0:26:00.679 these events and our participation in them are according to 0:26:01.040 --> 0:26:15.760 their like analysis, their attitude, and so on. I also 0:26:15.840 --> 0:26:18.199 asked what it was like to fight ostensibly on the 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:21.800 same side as neo Nazi elements like asof While Iliah 0:26:21.840 --> 0:26:23.800 and his unit are not anywhere close to the as 0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:25.840 Off battalion, I wanted to know how he and his 0:26:25.880 --> 0:26:28.159 comrades dealt with the weird reality of being in the 0:26:28.240 --> 0:26:31.160 same broadside as people they might have battled in the street. 0:26:31.200 --> 0:26:34.840 At one point, I would say that before war, of course, 0:26:35.160 --> 0:26:40.600 there was a lot of tensions between UH fascists and US, 0:26:41.480 --> 0:26:44.920 not directly with us off because as of his UM 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.679 like military unit like this is not the guys you 0:26:47.760 --> 0:26:50.800 meet and fight in the streets, but of course there 0:26:50.920 --> 0:26:54.040 is like they tried to set like their own how 0:26:54.080 --> 0:26:57.919 to say, mafia political empire, I would call it, or 0:26:58.000 --> 0:27:04.760 mafia like they had some businesses, some criminal stuff, some 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:11.400 patronage from the Interior Ministry UH and also very different 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:15.840 how to say, far right groups which the leaders of 0:27:16.240 --> 0:27:19.600 so called as of movement, which is much broader than 0:27:20.160 --> 0:27:26.560 as of battalion itself. They tried to utilized and instrumentalized 0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:31.320 to reach their own goals. And with some of these groups, 0:27:31.560 --> 0:27:35.200 of course we had like just street fights. For example, 0:27:35.720 --> 0:27:39.439 the elements closed to this as of movement, they try 0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:44.240 to influence a lot the Belarusian diaspora, like a position 0:27:44.280 --> 0:27:49.760 of diaspora in Kiev. For example, in the one year 0:27:50.359 --> 0:27:55.600 anniversary of the protests of twenty twenty in Belarus uh 0:27:55.720 --> 0:27:59.919 there were there was fight in Kiev between anarchists who 0:28:00.240 --> 0:28:04.159 came to participate in demonstrations in this demonstration and the 0:28:04.240 --> 0:28:11.000 Nazis who attacked them in like aiming to somehow push 0:28:11.119 --> 0:28:16.000 them out from the Belarusian movement to influence it in 0:28:16.080 --> 0:28:22.240 their own way. Like also just usual street confrontation also 0:28:22.280 --> 0:28:25.560 took place. All this time, there is quite visible and 0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:30.840 active Antifa movement in Kiev which confronted Nazis on the 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:37.760 streets and blocked sometimes uh UM several of their like 0:28:37.880 --> 0:28:43.400 initiatives and so on. And also of course informational and 0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:49.080 propaganda struggle was held by us by us UH during 0:28:49.160 --> 0:28:52.160 all this time since my then and of course before 0:28:52.160 --> 0:28:57.440 as well, about the current military situation, like, of course 0:28:58.000 --> 0:29:01.720 we are now actually part of one army with right 0:29:01.800 --> 0:29:04.880 sector as Off and so on. People, we are under 0:29:04.960 --> 0:29:09.040 the same military command UH, and if we will be 0:29:09.160 --> 0:29:13.200 tasked to fight in the same place the same enemy, 0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:19.240 we will be actually like the same um like part 0:29:19.280 --> 0:29:24.080 of the barricade. But this situation we need to deal with, 0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:29.720 like there are different opinions amongst our comrades and here 0:29:30.440 --> 0:29:34.680 about as Off and all the far rightists. They differs 0:29:34.720 --> 0:29:38.520 from that they are actually our enemies like both now 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:42.760 and also in any future Ukraine, in any future scenario, 0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:47.840 because these people promote like quite obviously absolutely opposite political 0:29:47.920 --> 0:29:52.440 and social goals. Then we um Other people say that 0:29:53.560 --> 0:29:58.479 another like other people say that now there is how 0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:03.239 to say, general deadly threat we are facing and we 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:07.000 should fight regardless of left and right and something like 0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:11.600 this to fight the imperialist invasion. But I personally me 0:30:11.760 --> 0:30:15.560 I do not support this second assumption and position. I 0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:20.320 see this quite not really politically smart at my opinion. 0:30:21.000 --> 0:30:24.080 But what we here can agree on is that if 0:30:24.120 --> 0:30:29.080 we want to confront uh Nazis, UH and far right 0:30:29.200 --> 0:30:34.360 parts of the Ukrainian political and also military spectrum, then 0:30:34.400 --> 0:30:39.080 we need to develop our own strong structure, our own 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:44.840 strong actor uh. And also this um somehow connected with 0:30:44.880 --> 0:30:47.400 the question about p R you mentioned that like we 0:30:47.440 --> 0:30:50.920 need our own pr our own publicity and media work 0:30:51.400 --> 0:30:55.239