1 00:00:01,200 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from how Stuff Works 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 3 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,959 Speaker 1: There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, Sherry's over there. Their finger 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: on the button, and this is stuff you should know. 5 00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: Not the button. Okay, well it's a button. She doesn't 6 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: have the nuclear suitcase. It's the button. As far as 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:34,200 Speaker 1: we're concerned, that's our nuclear suitcase. Yeah, because we're dropping 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: bombs every time we drop an episode. That's right. How 9 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: are you feeling pretty good? I am. I'm a little, uh, 10 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: a little apprehensive about this one. Well, I've been avoiding 11 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: this one for years because my uh, one of my 12 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:55,520 Speaker 1: very best friends died from complications of MS oh man 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: just last year. You failed to tell me that when 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: I said this one over your way as a suggestion. Well, 15 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,839 Speaker 1: you'd sent it before before he died, and I didn't 16 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: think I could do it, and I just kind of 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: feel like, now it's the time, you know. And weirdly, 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,759 Speaker 1: yesterday was his birthday and no would have been his birthday, 19 00:01:14,800 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 1: and you did not know that and had sent it 20 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:18,120 Speaker 1: over and it was just kind of one of those 21 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: eerie things where I was like, all right, this is 22 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 1: this has got to happen. What's your friend's name, Billy, Well, 23 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 1: this one's for Billy. Yeah, and this will be we'll 24 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: pepper his story throughout this. It's very sad stuff. Man. Well, 25 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: I'm right here with you. Man. Thank you. Just lead 26 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,959 Speaker 1: on me when you need it. I appreciate it. Okay. Uh. 27 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: So we are talking multiple sclerosis, or m S as 28 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: it's called. UM, and I knew very little about this. 29 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: I guess you probably are a lot more familiar with 30 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: it than I am. Then, huh yeah, I mean obviously 31 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 1: personally his journey with it, but as we will see, UM, 32 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 1: everyone's journey with MS is different. It is UM. Depending 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: on what kind you have, and depending on you as 34 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: an individual, it can progress in different ways, very slowly, 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: very quickly. Can be devastating, it can be not it 36 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,400 Speaker 1: can be very manageable. Um. He have one of the 37 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,920 Speaker 1: worst kinds. So yeah, from what I understand, it's very 38 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: fairly rare for someone to die from complications of MS. Right, Yeah, 39 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,079 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if rare is the word, 40 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:26,639 Speaker 1: but it's definitely not the common outcome. I got you 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: somewhere between rare and common. I think I got you, 42 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: but it's already a fairly rare disease. I think something 43 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: like four hundred thousand people in the United States and 44 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,839 Speaker 1: I think two million worldwide have it, which I mean 45 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: it's a substantial number of people, but in the context 46 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 1: of the larger global and national population, it's not that many. 47 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 1: It is rare, I would guess. Yeah, it's um, just 48 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: a little bit of an overview. I guess, um they 49 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,919 Speaker 1: call it the prime of life disease. Uh, and it's 50 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: very cruel in that way because, um, it most often 51 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 1: likes people between twenty and fifty, but I think even 52 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 1: usually in in you're like twenties. Uh, and that's when 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 1: Billy was hit with it, and um, it's uh. I 54 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 1: think more women than men get it, Yeah, by far, 55 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: because it's an autoimmune disease, and more women get autoimmune 56 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,920 Speaker 1: diseases more, which I didn't know. More Caucasians get it, 57 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: and apparently Caucasians of Northern European descent or more likely 58 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: to get it. And it's really there's a lot of 59 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: mystery about why people get this, Yeah, like, for example, 60 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: why Caucasian people more than people with darker skin um 61 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,440 Speaker 1: or Also I think part of the same coin why 62 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: people who live, you know, away from the equator more 63 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: than people who live in the tropics. That suggests that 64 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: the sun might have something to do with it. Or 65 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: I think one of the things that they've been looking 66 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,000 Speaker 1: into lately is vitamin D, which you produce through exposed 67 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: sure of this on Yeah, it's really, um a mystery 68 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. Um. Some people have have 69 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: brought up the idea of there are clusters of areas. 70 00:04:11,680 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: Other people have said, you know that's not the case, 71 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:19,320 Speaker 1: uh clusters or bs um you're reading you know your 72 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: your reverse engineering a what do you call it? A cause? 73 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: I guess stop bringing up clusters basically, h environmental or um, 74 00:04:30,920 --> 00:04:35,400 Speaker 1: whether it's environmental or hereditary, don't know for sure. That 75 00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,039 Speaker 1: would that would suggest that clusters could exist, right, But 76 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: the fact that they're not sure if it is environmental 77 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: or not, I would think that leaves that cluster thing 78 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,559 Speaker 1: open to debate. Yeah, but whether or not you can 79 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 1: it's hereditary, it's up for debate too, because I think 80 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: it says the risk for people with parents, siblings, or 81 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 1: children who are diagnoses between one and twenty and one 82 00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 1: and forty, whereas it's what one and seven fifty for 83 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: the general population. UM obviously got something to do with 84 00:05:05,360 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: heredity or or it could be that you tend to 85 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: live with your parents and your siblings, so you would 86 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,480 Speaker 1: share the same environments them too. So there's a lot 87 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: of mystery surrounding the underlying causes, there really is, and 88 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: so much so that they don't even know what is 89 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: going on. Well, they do know generally what's going on 90 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: on the biological level, but not specifically, right. So, multiple 91 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: sclerosis is like you said, it's an autoimmune disease where 92 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: your body's immune system attacks your own body. So there's 93 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,000 Speaker 1: a number of different ones, Like there's Crohn's disease is 94 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: one UM, there's inflammatory bowel syndrome, and they all have 95 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: in common that the body is mistaking, or the immune 96 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: system is mistaking some part of some normal natural part 97 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:57,720 Speaker 1: of the body as a foreign invader and is attacking 98 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: it as such. And in the case of multi pull sclerosis, UH, 99 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,159 Speaker 1: the body is mistaking what's called the mile in sheath, 100 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: this fatty substance that protects the axons that UM neurons, 101 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: that nerve cells communicate between UM. They attack that sheath, 102 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: and as they attack that sheath, they start to break 103 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: it down, and a basically what amounts to scar tissue 104 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 1: and a type of plaque starts to develop and those 105 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: form lesions, and it can happen anywhere on your brain 106 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: or your central nervous system. Yeah, that's that's essentially what 107 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: multiple sclerosis is. Yeah, those plaques, um, those are that's 108 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: called the sclerosis. So literally, multiple sclerosis means you have 109 00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: multiple plaques this hardened tissue at places on your body. Uh. 110 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 1: And like you said, you know you have the neurons, 111 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:53,480 Speaker 1: which are the nerve cells themselves, and the axons or 112 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: the fibers that connect everything wrapped in that sheath and 113 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: that sheath it's really it's very basic and cruel how 114 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: it acts. You know, any autoimmune disease is just devastating because, uh, 115 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 1: there's just something about the body making a mistake and 116 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 1: turning on it's on an otherwise healthy self. That's just uh, 117 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's hard to hard to wrap your 118 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: head around it. It really is, um And one of 119 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 1: the reasons why it's so tragic it is because we 120 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:25,480 Speaker 1: have really no idea how to make the body stop 121 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: doing that. And in the case of multiple scores, you 122 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: you have a body that's attacking the mile in sheath, 123 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: But researchers aren't quite sure exactly what part of the 124 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: mile in sheath is triggering the attack, so they can't 125 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 1: tailor drugs to stop the body from doing that. They 126 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: just know it's going after milin. Yeah, and the milin 127 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:50,239 Speaker 1: can repair itself if there's damage. But um, the problem 128 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: with MS is this, they call it de milonization. It's 129 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 1: happening to too fast basically. Uh. And sometimes it can 130 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: be so severe that that those nerve fibers are severed 131 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 1: outright right exactly. It's kind of like if you clear 132 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: cut a forest and then before you let the forests 133 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: come back, you start cutting down saplings. It's never gonna 134 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: come back. Same thing with the mile in chief. Um. 135 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: It is difficult to diagnose it first because the early 136 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: signs or things like you know, maybe a little dizzy 137 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: and may be fatigued. Um, maybe my vision is blurry occasionally. Um. 138 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: And it kind of comes and goes to where people 139 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 1: you know think like, oh, maybe it's migraines, maybe it's 140 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: some you know, something minor and um. Because it is 141 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:40,959 Speaker 1: not the most common thing, I don't think doctors immediately 142 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: are like, well, we need to get you into a 143 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: spinal tap, right, And because it doesn't necessarily follow a 144 00:08:47,640 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: strict set of symptoms, you know, you can get those 145 00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: lesions anywhere, and since their nerve um, they're disrupting or 146 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:58,679 Speaker 1: affecting the nerve signals, they can present in all sorts 147 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,920 Speaker 1: of different ways. Right. So, yeah, doctors are frequently stumped 148 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 1: when you present with MS symptoms. Should we take a 149 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: break and talk a little bit about the history and 150 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: then get back into it. Oh yeah, sure, all right, 151 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: let's do it. So historically, ms UM, although it is 152 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: new on the described disease front um, obviously it's been 153 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: around for a long time and people just didn't know 154 00:09:45,160 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: what the heck was going on. Yeah, there's a saint 155 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: that had it, they think, Yeah, back in the Middle Ages, 156 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:55,599 Speaker 1: Saint Ledwena, who's Dutch. And because she was Dutch, she 157 00:09:55,679 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 1: was ice skating once back in the fourteen the fifteenth century, Yeah, 158 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:04,520 Speaker 1: fourteen thirties, she was ice skating and she fell, and 159 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: after she fell she developed um excruciating pain, headaches, trouble walking, paralysis, UM. 160 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,040 Speaker 1: And apparently there would be periods where she didn't have 161 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: these symptoms and then they would come back. And it 162 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,280 Speaker 1: would get worse and then she would not have them again, 163 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: which are hallmarks of multiple sclerosis. As we'll see. Yeah, 164 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,240 Speaker 1: these attacks are flare ups followed by periods of remission. UM. Yeah, 165 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: that's a specific type of MS. Well, yeah, which we'll 166 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: get to that. But UM. King Georgia third apparently had 167 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: a grandson who had a very extensive diary about his 168 00:10:41,120 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: health until he died, and most people think like he 169 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 1: clearly had ms UM and I believe that. Uh. There's 170 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,959 Speaker 1: a couple of decades after that that UM, a doctor 171 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: Jean Martin Charcot became the first person at least it 172 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: got credit with with describing the disease itself UM, identifying 173 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: it and describing it. He's known as the father of 174 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: modern neurology. He's popped up in some of our other stuff. 175 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 1: He sounded familiar because he had a woman, a patient 176 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: that UM had these symptoms. She eventually died. He dissected 177 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: her brain, discovered these lesions and called it scleros en plaque. 178 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: And then the malin was UM was discovered after that, 179 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: But they didn't they didn't put two and two together 180 00:11:31,080 --> 00:11:32,800 Speaker 1: at a time with the island, but it was discovered 181 00:11:32,840 --> 00:11:36,680 Speaker 1: after that. So the the plaques in the effect on 182 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: the milin um was really first discovered or demonstrated by 183 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: Scottish doctor James Dawson, who, thanks to UM better microscopes 184 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: than previous researchers that had, he could see, Oh yeah, 185 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: these lines of communication between nerve cells and brain cells 186 00:11:55,880 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 1: are basically being worn down to nothing and in some 187 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: case this is broken and um, this is the basis 188 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: of MS. I'm James Dawson, goodnight. Yeah, we should do 189 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: one on the microscope because it seems like time and 190 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:15,000 Speaker 1: time again we've had like just literally because the being 191 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: able to see things smaller has gotten more advanced, like 192 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 1: every time that has taken a leap forward medical science 193 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 1: as Oh, sure, it's really interesting. Plus we'll get to 194 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: say Anton von leven hook that bunch. Yeah, we've talked 195 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:34,080 Speaker 1: about him before, right. Yeah. So Dawson, uh described the inflammation, 196 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 1: but they thought it was like a virus or a 197 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: toxin running through the bloodstream at the time. Um, they 198 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: did for a long time. Actually well yeah, and ironically 199 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: in the thirties, UM there were lab mice going hey, 200 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: it's autoimmune, right, and doctors were like, oh, don't listen 201 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 1: to the lab results from the slee mice. No, it's 202 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 1: clearly a blood toxin that's doing that. Yeah, So they 203 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:58,959 Speaker 1: sort of were not looking at the evidence right in 204 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,559 Speaker 1: front of their faces for a little while until the 205 00:13:00,640 --> 00:13:04,920 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, when I think at Columbia University they found 206 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 1: that um these weird protein byproducts and their and their 207 00:13:08,559 --> 00:13:13,480 Speaker 1: cerebro spinal fluid. And that was seven and that's kind 208 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: of when that's kind of when the doors really opened 209 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: and they said, Oh, I think we know what's going on, 210 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:20,560 Speaker 1: and I think we know how we can test for 211 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: this right. Right, that established one of the big tests 212 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: for for um MS, which is they're looking for so 213 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: they go do a spinal tap, right, which is where 214 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: they draw a sample of um cerebro spinal fluid from 215 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: between your vertebrate um and when they're testing for MS, 216 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: they're looking for high levels of I G G immunoglobin, 217 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: G antibodies, and something called oglio clonal bands, which are 218 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: another type of protein that are immunoglobins. And then they're 219 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: also looking for these protein by products that are the 220 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,679 Speaker 1: results of myle in being broken down in the cerebro 221 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: spinal fluid, which is not supposed to happen. So when 222 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: they find all this stuff, they can say this is 223 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: probably multiple sclerosis. And since the forties they've they've had 224 00:14:10,760 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: that test, and then starting in about the eighties or nineties, 225 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 1: they also introduced m R I. And when you compare 226 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: those two things together and they both suggest MS, you've 227 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 1: got a pretty good MS diagnosis. Yeah, but it, like 228 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, like I said, it's a slow process. I 229 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: remember Billy, it took a while until they finally landed 230 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 1: on MS for him, and that just kind of seems 231 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: to be the way it goes. What were his initial symptoms? 232 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 1: Do you do you remember? You know, like we didn't. 233 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: He was a college roommate and we didn't. Um. He 234 00:14:44,320 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: ended up moving to the Billy was. He was a 235 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: very unique guy. He he lived life to the fullest 236 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 1: and did not really follow the rules of uh modern man. 237 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: Where did he move? He kind of dropped out. He 238 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 1: went to Boone, North Carolina, which is a great place 239 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: to drop out and lived in a one room shack 240 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: like cabin in the middle of the woods. It's a 241 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 1: great place to do that with the toilet just sort 242 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 1: of in the room, a toilet or a bucket that 243 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: was a toilet, had running water and electricity, but it 244 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: was a one room thing and I went up there 245 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: a few times and stayed with him. But um, we 246 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: would like, you know, drink whiskey and shoot guns and 247 00:15:25,120 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: a cross streams on the toilet probably so like Ghostbusters. 248 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: So Billy kind of dropped out, and um, this was 249 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: before MS. You know, he just did that. You know, 250 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: as a he was like a river guide, a whitewater 251 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: river guide, and live the life that those dudes live, 252 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: which is to say, not being responsible for a lot 253 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: and kind of spending a lot of time on the river. Yeah, 254 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: it's been a lot of time on the river and 255 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: hanging out. Um, so he dropped out, and you know, 256 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: didn't have a phone. This was pretty cell phone, so 257 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: we weren't in the best touch. This is when I 258 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: was post college living in New Jersey. So the memories 259 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: of his exact early diagnosis or a little foggy, but 260 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: I think I remember like fogginess and uh, dizziness kind 261 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: of be in his first warning signs. But he wasn't 262 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,000 Speaker 1: the kind of like, oh, well, you know, I need 263 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: to run right out to the doctor and see what's 264 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: going on. No, And it certainly wasn't the Billy way, 265 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,320 Speaker 1: so he you know, he didn't do himself any favors 266 00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: in the early years, and then when he finally did 267 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: find out, he didn't do himself any favors because he 268 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:34,480 Speaker 1: didn't take care of himself and he didn't rehab and 269 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: take his medication like you should have and sort of 270 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: fell down into a spiral of alcohol and drug abuse 271 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 1: and um which did not help. Like you know, they say, 272 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: if you get a diagnosis, you want to you want 273 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: to live as clean as you can and work out 274 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: and be as physical as you can and really try 275 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: and take care of your body to stave off these 276 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: physical symptoms. And he didn't do any of that stuff. 277 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: And plus the early thing is a really big part 278 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: of it too, because again, what's happening is the mile 279 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: in sheets around your entire central nervous system or subject 280 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: to attack. And so if you can catch this earatly, 281 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: you can kind of stave off some of those successive 282 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,320 Speaker 1: attacks where if you just ignore it or don't pay 283 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: attention to it, it will just get worse and worse 284 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:23,440 Speaker 1: and worse. It's a it's what's called devastating progressive disease. Yeah, 285 00:17:23,480 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 1: and there's you know, a lot of people keep it 286 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,719 Speaker 1: a secret at first because it can um some of 287 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: the physical side effects can be embarrassing. I know that 288 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: this article mentioned and at Funicello waited for years to 289 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:38,160 Speaker 1: come out, you know, former Disney Mouseketeer, And she didn't 290 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 1: come out until I think there were reports that she 291 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 1: was an alcoholic because they see your stumbling around. Uh, 292 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: and it can be confused with things like that publicly 293 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: and um and then she said, actually, tabloids, I have MS. 294 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: Oh sorry and that and the same with Richard Pryor. 295 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,040 Speaker 1: He kept his MS diagnosis a secret for a little while. Yeah, 296 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: I remember everybody's Richard Pryor's got tremors because he used 297 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,719 Speaker 1: to free base. Yeah, no, turned out MS. Yeah totally. 298 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 1: Muhamma Ali didn't have MS. But I remember people when 299 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: Ali's condition got worse, We're like, oh, yeah, that you 300 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 1: know see what that's what happens with boxing. Well, I 301 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: think they might be right about that. One was by boxing. Yeah. 302 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: I think he had brain plaques from too many from 303 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: uh CTE. Okay, for some reason, I thought, I mean 304 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure that's why 305 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: he Uh, he had Parkinson's. I think it was brought 306 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: on by all the punches he took. I think, yeah, 307 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:43,560 Speaker 1: I didn't research any of this, so I'm speaking off 308 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: the cuff same here, all right, That's that's what we 309 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: do well. At any rate. UM people can kind of 310 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: keep it a secret for a little while because it 311 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: can be a diagnosis can be scary at first when 312 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: you get diagnosed with MS because of the unpredictability, and 313 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: you sort of have to I remember with Billy, they 314 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: were kind of like, we gotta kind of see how 315 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: this goes before we know what kind you have, right, 316 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:11,359 Speaker 1: which is fairly primitive as far as medicine goes. So Chuck, 317 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:15,199 Speaker 1: there's UM, there's this article has four kinds. What I 318 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,480 Speaker 1: saw is that it's been pared down to basically two. Yeah. 319 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 1: Our article says that there's progressive, relapsing, relapsing, remitting UM, 320 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: there is primary progressive, and then secondary progressive. And basically 321 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: what I saw is that UM, there's an umbrella group 322 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: called UM remitting or relapsing UH multiple sclerosis r MS, 323 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: and then there's another kind that is UM, sorry, it's 324 00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,880 Speaker 1: relapsing multiple sclerosis. And then the other kind is called 325 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: primary progressive. Right, And with relapsing MS. You are, you 326 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: have MS symptoms, you have basically what amounts to an attack, 327 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,640 Speaker 1: right where your symptoms come on and then they subside 328 00:20:00,680 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 1: after a while. And during the time that they subside, 329 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 1: you're in what's called um remission, right, and then they 330 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,879 Speaker 1: come on again, so you're in relapse phase. But during 331 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: those two times, your disease is not getting worse, right, 332 00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: it's not progressing. That's the relapsing type of multiple sclerosis. 333 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:27,320 Speaker 1: The other kinds primary progressive, and they used to call 334 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: that one UM yeah, and they kind of folded all 335 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: those together. But the one that survived is primary progressive. 336 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: And that's basically, like you are, your diseases getting worse 337 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: pretty much constantly, and it might be happening fast, it 338 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: might be happening slowly, but you have a disease progression 339 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: that can be noted by the people in charge of 340 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 1: taking care with care of you. But then during that 341 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: you may have small periods where you don't have symptoms, 342 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: so you've got a remission, or you have periods where 343 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: they come on really strong and it gets really cute, 344 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: so you have a relapse. But during this time, during 345 00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 1: like say a year or five years or ten years, 346 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: your MS is getting worse, you know by the year. Yeah, 347 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: which that was what Billy had got you. That's what 348 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,639 Speaker 1: it Yeah, that's what it sounds like. I have the 349 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: impression that, um, the any kind of progressive type of 350 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:26,560 Speaker 1: of most polt clerosis is the worst of the two 351 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: because you're you're you have it like basically all the time, 352 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: and it's getting worse as it goes along. Yeah, and 353 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: his would come together, his would come and fits and 354 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:38,439 Speaker 1: starts for the first period of years. Um, and it 355 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: was that classic thing, I think where his flare ups 356 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: would be like not so bad at one point and 357 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: then kind of calmed down and then be really bad 358 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:49,920 Speaker 1: and then calm down. But the whole time there was 359 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: a progressive thing going on to where he was. He 360 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: was obviously worst case scenario, um, like couldn't walk in 361 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 1: a wheelchair, couldn't talk, um, and that poor guy. Yeah, 362 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: you know, the muscles fasticity is a big um hallmark 363 00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: of a kind of the worst kinds And that's when you're, um, 364 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: you know, your body is just not communicating anymore, like well, no, 365 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: that mile in sheath is exposed and so the the 366 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 1: electrical impulses are going Hey, wires. So the muscles they're 367 00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: commanding are going hey wired too. Yeah, so he he, 368 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 1: like I said, he walked with a cane for a 369 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,480 Speaker 1: little while, but eventually like just had to go, you know, 370 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: lost tons of weight, eventually ended up in a wheelchair, 371 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: and was his body was almost constantly in a state 372 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: of muscle tension. You know. The ironic part about that 373 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: is it sounds like his immune system was super healthy, 374 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: which is how it was able to stage those massive 375 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: attacks on on his poor mile in sheaths. Maybe you know, yeah, 376 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 1: because you think if you had a weakish immune system, 377 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 1: your MS wouldn't be quite as bad. Yeah, I guess 378 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:59,040 Speaker 1: I do, remember he thought about that. Yeah, it's really 379 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 1: interesting and it's super cruel to see, um, like the body, 380 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 1: like I said, the body turn on itself like that 381 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: because Billy was very athletic and he was a good singer, 382 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: and like it took away his ability to do all 383 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: this stuff. Um, and it got so bad where he 384 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: would um and it mentions it in this article about 385 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: like even when you're eating, you have to be really 386 00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: careful because you can choke on your tongue or choke 387 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: on food. Um. When he would get cracked up and 388 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:27,439 Speaker 1: laugh at us. It would like it would be you know, 389 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:28,920 Speaker 1: it would be good for him, but it would also 390 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 1: be a little bit scary because he would his laugh 391 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 1: would get out of control such where you had to 392 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: worry about if you know, he had taken a sip 393 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 1: of water or something, you could choke on it. Yeah, 394 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: apparently that's one of the ways that people do die 395 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: from complications of MS is choking because they have swallowing problems. Yeah, 396 00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 1: that was definitely, I mean, I don't remember the exact 397 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 1: like literal cause of death at the end, but um 398 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: you know, it just ravaged his body basically, so the 399 00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 1: other ones I saw where that your lung function, weakend. 400 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 1: Muscle activity is one of the other main ways um uh, 401 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,400 Speaker 1: like an infection from a sore due to immobility can 402 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: if not treated correctly, those things can lead to say 403 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 1: like a blood infection and you can die from sepsis 404 00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: and then sadly, suicide is another leading cause of death 405 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: among people who have MS. Something like six percent of 406 00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:28,160 Speaker 1: fourteen percent of people with MS commit suicide. And one 407 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,240 Speaker 1: of the reasons why that's much higher than the population 408 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 1: at large um is because one of the comorbidity ease 409 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 1: of multiple sclerosis is depression, and it's apparently, from what 410 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,880 Speaker 1: I saw in my research, one of those things that's 411 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: not widely recognized and therefore not widely treated enough as 412 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,520 Speaker 1: far as m S goes. That it's a it's apparently 413 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,719 Speaker 1: a big problem with it, and it can come from 414 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: just being depressed that you have MS, because again the 415 00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: strikes you in the prime of your life, so you 416 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: think about all the stuff you're missing out on because 417 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 1: you have debilitating MS, or just the the mile in 418 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,479 Speaker 1: sheath coding regions of your brain. If you get legion 419 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 1: lesions in the parts of your brain that regulate your mood, 420 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: you can become Um, the physiology of your brain can 421 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,640 Speaker 1: lead to depression because of the changes there. Well yeah, 422 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: I mean it does originate in the central nervous system, 423 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: but um, it can in some cases affect like your memory, uh, 424 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: your speech, your problem solving, and your higher brain function. 425 00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: I think it's it says in here like five have 426 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,840 Speaker 1: severe impairment of higher brain functions. So yeah, of course 427 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: depression is gonna go along with that, you know, so 428 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 1: we should we should say that for the most part, 429 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: it's from what I saw, the vast majority of patients 430 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: with multiple sclerosis don't die from it, they don't suffer 431 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 1: major cognitive impairment as a result of it, and um, 432 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 1: a lot of them don't even exhibit major symptoms for 433 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: the most part. Yeah, I don't want to freak people 434 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: out with Billy's story because he had the worst case scenario. 435 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: But the diagnosis doesn't mean you're headed towards that. No. No, 436 00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure that we were saying that. 437 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: You know, I don't want to scare anybody, but we 438 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: gotta get information out there, right because I mean, if 439 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,800 Speaker 1: there's one thing that would be really great if we 440 00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: could do with this episode, is if there's somebody out 441 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,479 Speaker 1: there right now who is starting to have migraines are 442 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: tinkling in their arm, that they'll go to the doctor 443 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: and catch it early. You know, absolutely, So let's talk 444 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: about a treatment and stuff after your break. Huh, okay, alright. 445 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: One of the things you can do one to you 446 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 1: are diagnosed is get on drugs. Um. They've come a 447 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: long way to do drugs, that's right. Uh. The drugs 448 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,199 Speaker 1: that they use to help treat them as have come 449 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: a long way over the years. They're called disease modifying agents, 450 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: and um, you know, they don't cure anything. But what 451 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: they're trying to do is slow the progression or alter 452 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: or suppress that immune system in such a way that 453 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: it helps. Yeah. Yeah, and um, there's a lot of 454 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: ways out there to actually treat the symptoms that are 455 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: drug based and non drug based, but those disease modifying 456 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: agents are the ones that actually alter the course of 457 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: the multiple sclerosis. But like you said, they don't actually 458 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: cure it. Although it is possible that there is a 459 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: cure for it out right now, but it's new enough, 460 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: it was just started in the late nineties, and it's 461 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: so not so radical, um that it just hasn't been 462 00:27:54,920 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: proven as a cure, but it's kind of looking like 463 00:27:57,440 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 1: it might be. Yes, should we go ahead and talk 464 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, So it's based on stem cells. Yeah, 465 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,959 Speaker 1: I mean, it's basically what they're doing is completely replacing 466 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: your immune system, right, it's nuts. So back in the nineties, 467 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: two doctors from Ottawa, Um, what provinces Ottawa in do 468 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:20,360 Speaker 1: you remember the Ontario, Well, let's just say Ottawa, Canada 469 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 1: like Atlanta, USA. Uh. These doctors, Mark Friedman and Henry Atkins. 470 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: They had this idea of basically reducing your immune system 471 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:35,679 Speaker 1: to nothing, so that when they managed to keep you alive, 472 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 1: if they managed to keep you alive, when they restarted 473 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: your immune system again by reintroducing some of your stem 474 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:48,080 Speaker 1: cells your hemeo poetic I want to say, stem cells, 475 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 1: ye your own right, um, that it would build your 476 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: immune system up again, and then they could watch the 477 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,920 Speaker 1: immune system restart MS and they'd be able to watch 478 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: the disease progression from square one. But as one of 479 00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 1: them said in an interview, they failed miserably. But it's 480 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: great that they did, because what they found was that 481 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: when they devastated the immune system, brought it to zero, 482 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: wiped it out, and then reintroduced your blood stem cells 483 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: to the patient again, the MS didn't come back. In 484 00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: most of the people they tried this on. Yeh six 485 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 1: remained relapse free for three years after three years and counting, 486 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 1: and almost showed no sign of progression of the disease. 487 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 1: Which is and then in that original I think UM 488 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: study that Friedman and Atkins carried out, something like twenty 489 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,719 Speaker 1: three of the twenty four UM the disease was stopped 490 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: in its tracks. And apparently these people had like a 491 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: pretty bad bad cases of MS. This wasn't it wasn't 492 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: a lightweight case of MS. Yeah. There's something called the 493 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: Expanded Disability Status Scale, which basically kind of ranks how 494 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 1: bad they are in terms of walking, dexterity, cognition. And 495 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: they all had to rate between a three and a 496 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: five point five on that scale, which is, you know, 497 00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: fairly severe, right, And so some people for twenty three 498 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: out of twenty four in the original study, and I think, 499 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: like you said, six and later studies, Um, the disease 500 00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 1: just stopped, that did not get any worse, even though 501 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: these were progressive cases of MS. And in something like 502 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 1: six of the twenty four they actually there the disease 503 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: was walked back. So like the permanent damage apparently there's 504 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: a rule of thumb among people with multiple sclerosis or 505 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 1: doctors that if you have a symptom that doesn't get 506 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,440 Speaker 1: better or go away after a year, you can consider 507 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: it permanent damage. That permanent damage was actually reversed in 508 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 1: six of the twenty four patients by this incredibly radical 509 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: procedure that seems to work. Yeah, like that they one 510 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: of the doctors is, like, no one likes using the 511 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: C word and he was like, but I'm gonna go 512 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: ahead and say it, like, these people are cured. Yeah, 513 00:30:57,880 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 1: some of these people have been in remission for four 514 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: teen years and for all intents and purposes, that's that's cured. 515 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: It's amazing, it is. It's pretty great. But again it's 516 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 1: also a very very risky procedure. What they're using in 517 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: UM and I think the most current incarnation, i think 518 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: it's called halt MS is the process, but it's based 519 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: on those Autawa doctors discovery that you use five different 520 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: kinds of chemotherapy to kill your immune system. And so 521 00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:33,360 Speaker 1: obviously you have to be kept in isolation and everyone 522 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,600 Speaker 1: has to wear a crazy bio hazard suit around you, 523 00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: and they have you on anti microbials and it kills 524 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: everything UM and they are trying to fight off any 525 00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,960 Speaker 1: infection in Anyone who's ever stayed in the hospital knows 526 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: the best place to get an infection is a hospital. 527 00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:53,000 Speaker 1: So it's extraordinarily dangerous. But if you can survive, and 528 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: if you have like a pretty bad case of MS, 529 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: I'm guessing you'd be willing to try this UM it 530 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 1: can cure you. Yeah, Billy would have tried this in 531 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: a second. I guarantee it. Uh. They had twenty four 532 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: volunteers initially between two thousand and six and two thousand 533 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 1: and ten. For the first study, I think, oh no, no, 534 00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: this one was um, this was in Denver, So I 535 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,600 Speaker 1: guess are they doing follow up research? Yeah, this is 536 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: a difference. So the one that you're talking about, that's 537 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: the Halt study. UM. I'm not sure exactly what Freedman 538 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: and Atkins called their technique, but as far as I know, 539 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 1: they're the pioneers of wiping out your immune system and 540 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: then replacing it to get rid of MS. Yeah. So 541 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: I think I might have mixed together some of the 542 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: stats for these two studies. But let's just say they're 543 00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: both very promising. Um. And you know who knows, like 544 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know the procedure. I know we've 545 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 1: talked about doing shows on medical testing and stuff, and 546 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: the procedure like the stepping stones from here to like 547 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,880 Speaker 1: all right now, when is this going to be a thing? Um? 548 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,880 Speaker 1: But I mean it's so kind of dangerous and frought 549 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: with complications. I don't know if they this can be 550 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: super widespread, you know, I from what I'm seeing in 551 00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: the research, though, it has such positive backing. I think 552 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: kind of across the spectrum that it's I think people 553 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 1: are gung hollo about it, Like people should be able 554 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: to decide if they want to take that risk, Like 555 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 1: Billy was certainly in a position where he's like, it's 556 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: not gonna get any worse for me, right, Yeah, Like 557 00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: I'm willing to take this chance and maybe die. Right. Uh. 558 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 1: It's basically I guess what these volunteers are saying to 559 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: make my life better. Yeah. I think one of the 560 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: things that's probably staying in most people like that's way 561 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,600 Speaker 1: is the cost associated because I supposedly there's really just 562 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: stupid loopholes that you have that regarding um stem cell therapies. 563 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: Like like the article I sent you UM talked about 564 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: a guy named Dave Bexfield and he was UM accepted 565 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: to the study, willing to take the risks, and UM 566 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: his insurance company was like, yeah, that's great, it's a 567 00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: stem cell um study, but we only cover stem cells 568 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,279 Speaker 1: that are that come from donors, and this study has 569 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,920 Speaker 1: stem cells that come from you, So you're gonna have 570 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: to pay the two thousand dollars yourself. And he did. 571 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,400 Speaker 1: This guy got together, he's scraped together like a hundred 572 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: and eighties six grand, which is what it costs to 573 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: to carry out this trial for him specifically, And um, 574 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: I guess afterward he went after his insurance company and 575 00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,359 Speaker 1: got not only that money back, but like another two 576 00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars or something in interest and he's cured. So boom, 577 00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: I should say, and he's c worded. That's right. Uh. 578 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,239 Speaker 1: There are UM some other diseases that are sort of 579 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: like MS, and there is debate in the medical community 580 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: whether or not they want to actually classify them. There's 581 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:06,040 Speaker 1: something called clinically isolated syndrome, which means you can have 582 00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: an attack or a flare up or an episode UM 583 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:14,000 Speaker 1: from this de milonization. But it's just like one lesion. 584 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 1: And sometimes you might develop MS, but not always. Sometimes 585 00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 1: it's just c I D. Yeah. I thought that was weird, 586 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: and to me it is kind of suggests how incomplete 587 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 1: and understanding science has of MS. Well, yeah, and like 588 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:33,600 Speaker 1: I said that, some people say, well, you shouldn't even 589 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: call this MS, and some people say no, it's like 590 00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:40,279 Speaker 1: maybe the mildest form you can get. Uh. What else, 591 00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: There's something called Marburg m s H shoulders diffuse sclerosis 592 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 1: Belo concentric sclerosis and devits disease. They are all sort 593 00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 1: of in that UM range of what's called ideopathic inflammatory 594 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 1: demylinating diseases. And children can get it too, even though 595 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: it's pretty rare. Yeah, eight thousand cases in the US. 596 00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,360 Speaker 1: And remember there's like four dred thousand of MS, but 597 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:18,240 Speaker 1: of pediatric multiple sclerosis UM, there's eight thousand of them, 598 00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:22,799 Speaker 1: which is I mean talk about prime of life disease. Yeah, 599 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:25,840 Speaker 1: and I think it's even harder to diagnose in kids 600 00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:29,240 Speaker 1: because that's certainly not something they're looking for, right, And 601 00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: we're like the drugs that they're using, it's it's like 602 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,719 Speaker 1: what we don't know what effects are going to have 603 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: on kids. You know, it is the career worse than 604 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,479 Speaker 1: the disease because there's you know, we said that there's 605 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,360 Speaker 1: some disease altering drugs. There's a new one called O 606 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: Crivous that is UM pending approval from the FDA but 607 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:48,960 Speaker 1: looks like it's going to go through, which is I 608 00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:53,400 Speaker 1: think the first UH disease modifying agent that is shown 609 00:36:53,440 --> 00:37:00,080 Speaker 1: to treat both progressive and relapsing forms of multiple sclerosis UM. 610 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: And it goes after the immune system. I think it 611 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: tries to suppress your B cells in the immune system. 612 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: Um So, there's there's plenty of treatments that go after 613 00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:13,640 Speaker 1: the disease, but there's also a lot of treatments that 614 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: treat symptoms, right, and um one of the ones that 615 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 1: are used are antidepressants and anti convulsants. And so there's 616 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: a lot of questions like, should we be giving those 617 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: two kids even though they have MS. What's the long 618 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: term effect of giving antidepressants to a child whose brain 619 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 1: chemistry is still in the beginning stages of development. Yeah, 620 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,239 Speaker 1: I mean, drugs can be wonderful, but there there's not 621 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,319 Speaker 1: a drug you can take that doesn't have some sort 622 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: of other effect. And um, the benefits outweighing the side effects, 623 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,560 Speaker 1: Like you gotta take all this into consideration for anything, 624 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:53,560 Speaker 1: you know. One of the other things I saw about antidepressants, Chuck, was, um, 625 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:55,600 Speaker 1: they have figured out that they can use it to 626 00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,279 Speaker 1: treat chronic pain. And one of the outcroppings from m S. 627 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: So again, MS is like your body going haywire and 628 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:10,399 Speaker 1: really unique ways for each person with multiple sclerosis. Um So, 629 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 1: it kind of in a way provides researchers ways to 630 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: whenever the body does something it is not supposed to. 631 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,320 Speaker 1: It's a great place for researchers to go study the 632 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: normal processes of the body. And one of the things 633 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,200 Speaker 1: they figured out is that in treating chronic pain with 634 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,680 Speaker 1: multiple sclerosis, um, you can use antidepressants. And the reason 635 00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: why is because apparently chronic pain and depression use a 636 00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,839 Speaker 1: lot of the same neural pathways and create a lot 637 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,920 Speaker 1: of the same changes to the plasticity of the brain 638 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,440 Speaker 1: as one another, and that chronic pain and depression maybe 639 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways more related at least neurologically 640 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,319 Speaker 1: than chronic pain and acute pain, which seemed to be 641 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:57,160 Speaker 1: kind of different animals. Yeah, fascinating, I think so too. 642 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 1: Have you got anything else? Uh? Yeah, you know, I 643 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: think I would just advise anyone. And it's not just MSS, 644 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: but like if you got a I wasn't the friend 645 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,439 Speaker 1: to Billy that I should have been towards the end, 646 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: and it's fraught with regret, uh. And part of that 647 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,120 Speaker 1: is because life gets in the way, uh. And part 648 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: of it is just you know, it's not the easiest 649 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: thing to face as a friend. And I think what 650 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: I did was I let myself off the hook too easily. 651 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,839 Speaker 1: For that stuff, which I feel really crappy about now, 652 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,920 Speaker 1: like try to overcome that. If you have something like 653 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: this going on. That's good advice, man, That's what I 654 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 1: will say. I swore I wasn't gonna do this. Are 655 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: you missing? Yeah, it's it's It was very hard and 656 00:39:57,760 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 1: I wasn't the friend I should have been. And my 657 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:04,360 Speaker 1: friend Eddie was great and stood by Billy, and uh, 658 00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: I went and saw him at the end in the hospital, 659 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,799 Speaker 1: but it was you know, I had a lot of 660 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,799 Speaker 1: regret about the final years and not going to see him. 661 00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: You should have and it's understandable. Man. Yeah, I think 662 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: you just did some sort of absolution though. Well we'll see. Well, 663 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,239 Speaker 1: if you want to know more about multiple sclerosis, you 664 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: could type those words into the search part how stuff 665 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,200 Speaker 1: works dot com and it will bring up this article. Um. 666 00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: And since I said that and Chuck is missing, it's 667 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 1: time for listening mail. That means it's Wednesday. Uh, this 668 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 1: is on empathy a little bit too. Um. Hey, guys 669 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,680 Speaker 1: listening to empathy right now. I had a pause to 670 00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,280 Speaker 1: say thank you when you were talking about the study 671 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:54,560 Speaker 1: relating to autism and alex athemia. Uh, you listed four 672 00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 1: groups studied as individuals with autism and alexothemia, individuals with autism, 673 00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: um uh without alexithemia, individuals with alexithemia but not autism, 674 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,319 Speaker 1: and then people who didn't have either one. Growing up 675 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 1: as a sister of a guy with autism, I can 676 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,480 Speaker 1: tell you how many times I've heard people describe individuals 677 00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:18,200 Speaker 1: without autism as normal people. It's such a lazy way 678 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,360 Speaker 1: to describe a group who doesn't exhibit just one of 679 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 1: a multitude of other characteristics, and frankly, it's demeaning and rude. 680 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 1: So thank you for not being those guys. You're always 681 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,480 Speaker 1: careful in your wording, so I shouldn't be surprised, But 682 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: having thirty years plus experience hearing normal people condition me 683 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,360 Speaker 1: to brace myself when you started the list inclusive language 684 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: for the wind keep up the great work. That is 685 00:41:39,640 --> 00:41:44,440 Speaker 1: from Megan is isgin in Indianapolis? And she said, psh, 686 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,040 Speaker 1: Indianapolis is no Seattle, but maybe come to the Circle 687 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:52,279 Speaker 1: City sometime. Oh nice, up uh, and we I think 688 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: we have been batting around the idea of in Indianapolis show, 689 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,719 Speaker 1: so yeah, hopefully it will happen. Thanks a lot, Megan. 690 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 1: That was very nice of you. We appreciate the kudos. 691 00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 1: Um And if you want to get in touch with this, 692 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: like Megan and tell us to come to your city, 693 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,640 Speaker 1: you can tweet to us We're at s Y s 694 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: K podcast or josh um Clark Uh. You can hang 695 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:14,239 Speaker 1: out with us on Facebook dot com slash stuff you 696 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 1: Should Know or Facebook dot com slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant. 697 00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 1: You can send us an email stuff podcast at how 698 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,400 Speaker 1: stuff Works dot com, and as always, join us at 699 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: our home on the web, stuff you Should Know dot 700 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:31,760 Speaker 1: com For more on this and thousands of other topics. 701 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:43,839 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff Works dot com