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Speaker 2: The truth is the first person you lead every days
Speaker 2: yourself the first The first person you lead every day
Speaker 2: is the person who wakes up in your pajamas, in
Speaker 2: your bed. And if you can lead that person, you're
Speaker 2: gonna have a great day. And if you can't lead
Speaker 2: that person, you're gonna have a bad day.
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Psychology Podcast. Today we welcome
Speaker 1: Alissa Cohne to the podcast. Alissa is an executive coach
Speaker 1: who has worked with C suite executives at prominent startups
Speaker 1: such as Venmo, Etsy, and The Wirecutter, as well as
Speaker 1: Fortune five hundred companies such as Microsoft, Google, and Pfizer.
Speaker 1: Her clientele also includes leaders from around the world, including
Speaker 1: the first female Minister of the Transition State of Afghanistan
Speaker 1: and the former Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of
Speaker 1: Sri Lanka. She's the author of From Startup to Grown Up,
Speaker 1: which won the twenty twenty two Independent Press Award, and
Speaker 1: she's also the creator and host of a podcast of
Speaker 1: the same name. In this episode, I talked to Alyssa
Speaker 1: Cohne about the journey of leadership. Before we can guide others,
Speaker 1: Alyssa believes we need to lead ourselves first. There are
Speaker 1: days when we just don't feel up to the task,
Speaker 1: but Alissa gives us practical advice on how to show
Speaker 1: up on those difficult days. Drawing on her own legendary
Speaker 1: coaching experience with executives, she shares with us that even
Speaker 1: the most successful entrepreneurs experienced poster syndrome and negative self talk,
Speaker 1: but these can be overcome with the right management tools.
Speaker 1: It was so much fun chatting with Alyssa. She has
Speaker 1: such a positive energy, and she has so much experience
Speaker 1: and wisdom helping people become really great leaders. So I
Speaker 1: think you'll have a lot to learn in this episode.
Speaker 1: So now I bring you Alissa Cohne. Hi.
Speaker 2: How are you?
Speaker 1: Hi, Melissa, I'm good. How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm fantastic. I'm fantastic. Thank you for doing this with me.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's my pleasure. I want our audience to really
Speaker 1: get a chance to know you. So let's start off
Speaker 1: by telling our audience audience a little bit about you
Speaker 1: and and yeah, just riff on who you are.
Speaker 2: Absolutely well, thanks for asking I'm an executive coach. I've
Speaker 2: been a coach for twenty years. Twenty years, and I'm
Speaker 2: also the author of a book called From Startup to
Speaker 2: Grown Up, which is about the journey from founder to leader,
Speaker 2: but it's also about the journey that all leaders go
Speaker 2: through as they grow into leaders. And I guess I
Speaker 2: would say I'm obsessed with personal growth. And I'm also
Speaker 2: a kettlebell aficionado.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah, So kettlebells like in the gym, Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: like like these things.
Speaker 2: Yeah wow. Yeah.
Speaker 1: That's why I think that.
Speaker 2: I discovered that was probably about five or six years ago.
Speaker 2: I a reformed runner. I was a runner. I'm still
Speaker 2: a runner, but I realized I had to do cross
Speaker 2: training so that I didn't injure myself running. And so
Speaker 2: I started doing strength training, and I started doing kettlebells,
Speaker 2: and I would just and I fell in love with them.
Speaker 2: And I think, I just want to say that, like
Speaker 2: part of what I'm in love with is I think
Speaker 2: it's important for all of us to fall in love
Speaker 2: with the process in anything you're trying to do. And
Speaker 2: kettlebells and strength training has taught me to fall in
Speaker 2: love with the process because I don't like strength training,
Speaker 2: and also I don't like fitness is uncomfortable, but it
Speaker 2: gives you a lot of benefits. There's a discipline to it.
Speaker 2: And when I started my own podcast called From Startup
Speaker 2: to Grown Up after writing my book From Startup to
Speaker 2: Grown Up, both of those were really freaking hard. And
Speaker 2: the notion of like putting one foot in front on
Speaker 2: the other and just trying and getting over your resistance
Speaker 2: and falling in love with the process that I learned
Speaker 2: from fitness and from strength training, I really drew on
Speaker 2: those resources to do these hard things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure you apply a lot of those principles
Speaker 1: in your coaching work as well.
Speaker 2: Definitely, definitely what.
Speaker 1: Is executive coaching? Exactly? What is executive Oh.
Speaker 2: That's such a great question. Executive coaching the way I
Speaker 2: think about it is, first of all, coaching is a
Speaker 2: process that helps you figure out where are you, where
Speaker 2: are you going, and how are you going to get there?
Speaker 2: When you think about that, there's you know you can
Speaker 2: do that in a personal context, and then you can
Speaker 2: also do that in a work context. So I do
Speaker 2: that with leaders and with executives. That's why it's executive coaching.
Speaker 2: But the process is, you know, helping someone by asking
Speaker 2: the right questions and also kind of sharing my own
Speaker 2: expertise over time, helping someone be able to shortcut the
Speaker 2: process that it would have taken them to do it
Speaker 2: by themselves. So hopefully we together accelerate a process of
Speaker 2: growth and development and achievement and accomplishment that helps them
Speaker 2: move forward faster.
Speaker 1: That sounds great, Like where did you learn how to
Speaker 1: do that? Is there like an executive coaching school? Can
Speaker 1: you get a PhD in executive coaching?
Speaker 2: You know you probably can these days. When I started
Speaker 2: twenty years ago, there was sort of these like schools
Speaker 2: that sprouted up, so they were called like Coach Training
Speaker 2: Institute or Hudson Institute. I got my training from a
Speaker 2: place called Coach University, which was founded by this so
Speaker 2: called founder of coaching, Thomas Leonard. Now you can get
Speaker 2: degrees in coaching right in Georgetown and Columbia and others.
Speaker 2: They do have certificates or programs in coaching. But I
Speaker 2: think if you're being honest, like for me, first of all,
Speaker 2: I got my MBA from Cornell. I'm a CPA. I
Speaker 2: have a lot of business experience and business background, so
Speaker 2: I was also the CFO of a startup and the
Speaker 2: head strategy and other startup. So like having had leadership roles,
Speaker 2: having a business background, speaking the language of business, that
Speaker 2: really helps. You're talking about executive coaching, right, the idea
Speaker 2: of understanding business. The second part of that, the coaching
Speaker 2: part of that. I think it's really important to have
Speaker 2: done your own personal work. So I've done all my workshops,
Speaker 2: I did landmark education, I did different kinds of like
Speaker 2: my own training programs to get a handle on myself.
Speaker 2: And then when you combine that with specific coach training
Speaker 2: as well as you know, I was mentored by the
Speaker 2: greatest coach of all time, Marshall Goldsmith and other amazing peers.
Speaker 2: Then you practice on clients. I apologize to you, my
Speaker 2: early clients, for practicing on you. That's how you become
Speaker 2: a great coach. It's a combination of formal education but
Speaker 2: also your ability to learn from others out there there
Speaker 2: and learn from your clients.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a great question. What makes a great coach?
Speaker 1: That sounds like those are the things that are good
Speaker 1: starter things to become a good coach, But surely that's
Speaker 1: not the full list. What is a good coach? You know,
Speaker 1: what is it asking powerful questions that are transformative?
Speaker 2: Is it?
Speaker 1: You know? Like, what is it?
Speaker 2: I know it's a great question. I think there's a
Speaker 2: lot of ways to answer it. But the way I
Speaker 2: think about it is this, A great coach helps her
Speaker 2: clients get the results they're looking for and that they want.
Speaker 2: That's number one, number two, and have a personal experience,
Speaker 2: personal transformational experience along the way. And I think if
Speaker 2: you just do that, you're a great coach. There's so
Speaker 2: many different modes to do that. To your point, asking
Speaker 2: great questions, different tools and techniques. A master coach we
Speaker 2: use all those together to help her clients get great results.
Speaker 1: Wow, master coach, are you a master coach?
Speaker 2: That's for my clients to say.
Speaker 1: But that sounds I mean I was Jedi. That's like
Speaker 1: Jedi level. Wait say that again. Say that again, because
Speaker 1: that's something that's amazing. Say it again. You were the
Speaker 1: number one one.
Speaker 2: I was named the number one startup coach in the
Speaker 2: world by Marshall Goldsmith, the greatest coach of all time.
Speaker 1: And come like, own that shit. You say that so gingerly.
Speaker 1: You said that so gingerly. I be proud of that.
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, thank you, thank you very much.
Speaker 1: I would think, yes, I would say, your your your
Speaker 1: Jedi level. Thank you, You're welcome. This book you wrote
Speaker 1: from startup to grown up? Is it your first book?
Speaker 1: Have you wrote books before this?
Speaker 2: It is? It's my first book.
Speaker 1: Congratulations, congratulations, thank.
Speaker 2: You, thank you.
Speaker 1: But it brought together things you've been thinking about for
Speaker 1: over twenty years.
Speaker 2: Right, Oh yeah for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean it brought together a lot of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, and I would just say that
Speaker 2: like it was ten years in the making in my head,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I feeling Yeah. So it has three
Speaker 1: sections and managing you, managing them, managing the business. My gosh,
Speaker 1: many people don't really think about management as like managing you, right, Like,
Speaker 1: why does it start there?
Speaker 2: Oh? Great question. It's because the truth is the first
Speaker 2: person you lead every day as yourself the first the
Speaker 2: first person you lead every day is the person who
Speaker 2: wakes up in your pajamas, in your bed. And if
Speaker 2: you can lead that person, you're gonna have a great day.
Speaker 2: And if you can't lead that person, you're gonna have
Speaker 2: a bad day. So I think it's really important to
Speaker 2: realize that when you're going out into the world and
Speaker 2: trying to do anything, managing other people, managing your business,
Speaker 2: being a startup founder, getting your kids to school. You've
Speaker 2: got to start with you and figure out the ways
Speaker 2: that you can feel good and you can get yourself
Speaker 2: together and you can have intention about what you want,
Speaker 2: what you're going to do today, and that is going
Speaker 2: to help you be great in all the other activities
Speaker 2: that you have to do every day.
Speaker 1: I love that. Well, what are some of the major
Speaker 1: skills to manage yourself?
Speaker 2: So, first of all, it's about really igniting your own
Speaker 2: self awareness. So that has to do with recognizing what
Speaker 2: works for you and what doesn't work for you. You know,
Speaker 2: are you the kind of person who needs to have
Speaker 2: a strong morning routine or you the kind of person
Speaker 2: who can actually and does better maybe just winging it.
Speaker 2: Are you the kind of person who needs to do
Speaker 2: something structured in the morning or throughout the day, or
Speaker 2: are you the kind of person who prefers spontaneity. So
Speaker 2: self awareness is the key. The second is to then
Speaker 2: do the things you need to do to be that person.
Speaker 2: So it might be setting up structure for yourself, it
Speaker 2: might be creating, you know, space for yourself, to have spontaneous,
Speaker 2: spontaneity and choice in the morning or throughout the day.
Speaker 2: And then it's about you know, doing the doing the
Speaker 2: things that make a human being kind of work. So
Speaker 2: it's like making sure that you probably get some fitness
Speaker 2: in or some movement in the morning. Maybe it's meditation
Speaker 2: in the morning. Having those kinds of strong routines really
Speaker 2: help you. The second part of self awareness is figuring
Speaker 2: out in the workplace what you're about, so what sets
Speaker 2: you off. So you have employees who will come to
Speaker 2: you and they ask you questions, and some people, for
Speaker 2: some reason, it's like you're really vibing with that person
Speaker 2: and you're happy to answer the question, and for some reason,
Speaker 2: this other person's always asking these annoying questions. Well, how
Speaker 2: come like to really figure out your own operating system
Speaker 2: so you can teach other people how to get your
Speaker 2: best as a leader, and then you can coach and
Speaker 2: train other people about how they can get their best
Speaker 2: and how you can work together better. And then the
Speaker 2: third part has to do with managing your psychology because
Speaker 2: we all get through so many ups and downs in
Speaker 2: a day and an intense work environment. As you get
Speaker 2: more advanced in your career, you have a more and
Speaker 2: more intense work environment. Startup founders of an extreme work environment,
Speaker 2: and there are lots of ups and downs, and you
Speaker 2: need to find the different ways to manage your own
Speaker 2: psychology during the throughout the day.
Speaker 1: Yes, how do you do that? What if you're not
Speaker 1: in the mood to do the day?
Speaker 2: I know, what if you're not in the mood to
Speaker 2: do the day? So we don't usually have the option
Speaker 2: to opt out of the day. So you've got to
Speaker 2: find ways to get back on track. Right.
Speaker 1: So you might be like, that's your problem, Scott, that's
Speaker 1: your problem. You gonna have to deal with that shit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got to deal with it. And so I
Speaker 2: find it very helpful to what I help my clients
Speaker 2: do is to think about making separations over different meetings.
Speaker 2: The problem is that where in the workplaces and there
Speaker 2: are so many meetings I meet. Therefore I am and
Speaker 2: people are going back to back to back to back
Speaker 2: to back. And the truth is that how you show
Speaker 2: up in the third meeting of the day is usually
Speaker 2: an accumul of how the first two meetings of the
Speaker 2: day went. And if the first one didn't go well
Speaker 2: and the second one didn't go well, then I can
Speaker 2: almost I can predict your third one is not going
Speaker 2: to go well. So you've got to find the tools
Speaker 2: to pause. What I encourage people to do is to
Speaker 2: take the five minutes between meetings. Pause physically. When I
Speaker 2: say physically, in your mind's eye, take all the issues
Speaker 2: from that meeting and kind of like put them somewhere,
Speaker 2: like in your drawer, in your desk. You might touch
Speaker 2: the door handle of the next meeting, and you can
Speaker 2: leave them on the door handle and remind yourself, I've
Speaker 2: got to reset for this meeting, and then back to
Speaker 2: managing yourself, like first thing in the morning. Kind of
Speaker 2: remind yourself the leader, I want to be the professional,
Speaker 2: I want to be the product manager. I want to
Speaker 2: be the parent, I want to be whatever that is.
Speaker 2: And reset in those five minutes and bring that to
Speaker 2: the next meeting. That's one way of encouraging yourself to
Speaker 2: do the day, even though how you feel right now
Speaker 2: is not like doing the day, and your your mood
Speaker 2: follows your actions.
Speaker 1: Your mood follows are nice. Nice Behavioral activation theory.
Speaker 2: Represent I'm sure you know all about.
Speaker 1: That behavioral activation theory. Love it, love it, I really
Speaker 1: love your stuff. On combating negative self talk. I think
Speaker 1: it's related to what we're talking about. What are the
Speaker 1: three selves or the three selfs? Right self systead of cells?
Speaker 2: You know, I wanted to I wrote that article for
Speaker 2: AK and I wanted to make the point it's not
Speaker 2: three it's not three of you. It's like you actually
Speaker 2: want to put it outside of yourself and you think
Speaker 2: of the three selfs. So it's self talk, and it's
Speaker 2: self observation or self awareness, it's self compassion, and then
Speaker 2: it's self talk. So self awareness is, oh, I know
Speaker 2: that I'm telling myself negative things right now, right now,
Speaker 2: And then you can kind of recognize that this is
Speaker 2: going on inside of you right now. It's not like
Speaker 2: it's not just like part of you. Can make a
Speaker 2: separation between you and how you're experiencing you. And then
Speaker 2: I think self compassion is really important because we all
Speaker 2: screw up, we all have difficult moments, we all are negative.
Speaker 2: Whatever it is, the only way you'll be able to
Speaker 2: counteract that is to be able to separate that and
Speaker 2: to be or to I should say, not separate that,
Speaker 2: but like give yourself compassion. Accept that. That's what I
Speaker 2: wanted to say. Accept that about yourself and let it
Speaker 2: be that way with love and acceptance, and it's then
Speaker 2: that you can then transform and add in separate self
Speaker 2: talk and self talk can be positive, as in, instead
Speaker 2: of I really screwed that up, it could be listen,
Speaker 2: I'm doing my best, or I really screwed that up.
Speaker 2: One of the things I like is, you know what
Speaker 2: ballplayers fail most of the time, and find the tools
Speaker 2: and the specific self talk that's going to help you
Speaker 2: reorient and get represenced to this moment. So when you
Speaker 2: apply self awareness, self compassion, and self talk, that helps
Speaker 2: you lose that difficult identify and then lose a difficult
Speaker 2: state and then transform it into a better state right
Speaker 2: here in the moment.
Speaker 1: Nice. I like that. I like that you're really helping
Speaker 1: people with their mindsets. Yes, you're also there's a whole
Speaker 1: thing called mindset coaching. Did you know that that's the
Speaker 1: whole thing. There's so many different kinds of coaching, but
Speaker 1: I bet you bring in lots of goodies all in
Speaker 1: one under your exact yeah, umbrella, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think you probably know a lot
Speaker 2: more about the fine points of things like mindset and
Speaker 2: mindset coaching, But I do try.
Speaker 1: I don't know that we don't know that you can
Speaker 1: know infinite more than me about it. Let's talk about
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome, you know, because it's something you talk about
Speaker 1: a lot, and if I talk about it too in
Speaker 1: my work. I think that you're probably maybe kinder on
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome than maybe I'm one more tough love about it.
Speaker 1: But I want to I want to hear your perspective.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you my perspective. Yeah, really, because I think
Speaker 1: people get people let people off the hook too much
Speaker 1: with this one. But I want you to tell me
Speaker 1: a little bit in the work you've done dealing with
Speaker 1: founders and how they deal with imposters like founders of companies,
Speaker 1: you know, or other kinds of leaders, and how you
Speaker 1: help them overcome it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So it turns out that ninety five percent of
Speaker 2: high performers experience imposter syndrome. So like Moss that I
Speaker 2: work with, ninety five percent of high performers.
Speaker 1: That's a really high percentage where where most that's incredible.
Speaker 2: Yes, really multiple pop psychology, multiple pop psychology articles, So
Speaker 2: we'll have to track down statistic.
Speaker 1: I'm dubious about that statistic, but tell me more yeah.
Speaker 2: Maybe so. But all I can say is that many
Speaker 2: high performers, let's call it, many high performers, experience imposter syndrome.
Speaker 2: So imposter synderm is the experience that you're going to
Speaker 2: be called out as a fraud, that you've accomplished everything
Speaker 2: in your life because of luck, and your luck is
Speaker 2: about to run out. And that is the experience of
Speaker 2: startup founders, for sure, who are kind of out on
Speaker 2: this guinea branches trying to do something new that they've
Speaker 2: never done before. You know, I talked to one of
Speaker 2: my uh more mature startup founders and he told and
Speaker 2: they're at Series E now and even now he says,
Speaker 2: everything I'm doing, I'm doing it for a first time.
Speaker 2: I'm still a rookie CEO. So because of that, you
Speaker 2: get confronted with this imposter syndrome, and impost for startup
Speaker 2: founders very much looks like I don't know what I'm doing.
Speaker 2: I can't do it. Jeff Bezos would know how to
Speaker 2: do this. I know Jeff Bezos, you know, like that
Speaker 2: kind of you know, come comparison to like, you know,
Speaker 2: the sort of storied CEOs of our time. And so
Speaker 2: I think the way to counteract counteract imposter syndrome is
Speaker 2: first of all, to accept imposter sendrom is a thing.
Speaker 2: Everybody is going to experience it, and I'm going to
Speaker 2: experience it. And then some of the tools that I
Speaker 2: give my clients to counteract to. But my favorite tool
Speaker 2: is called the highlight reel, and the highlight reel is
Speaker 2: your best of moments, moments where you accomplished big things
Speaker 2: and in particular when you overcame challenges. And if you
Speaker 2: step back and actually allocate some time and write down
Speaker 2: your best of moments times, especially overcame challenges, you will
Speaker 2: be able to remind yourself of evidence that you're actually
Speaker 2: very competent. And it's not going to cure your imposter
Speaker 2: numb once and for all, but it's like actually something
Speaker 2: you can go back to time and time again to
Speaker 2: remind yourself of your greatness and to kind of hold
Speaker 2: on to when you're feeling kind of shaky.
Speaker 1: That's cool, And you found this as you've seen significant
Speaker 1: changes with the leaders that you've worked with on this,
Speaker 1: have they really reduced their imposter syndrome phenomenon.
Speaker 2: Yes. One of my clients was a young partner at
Speaker 2: a VC firm and he suffered in silence with his
Speaker 2: imposter syndrome, and so I told him, you should write it.
Speaker 2: You should do this highlight reel. Now, Scott, I don't
Speaker 2: know about you, but all of my clients are like
Speaker 2: constantly rolling their eyes at me, like ugh, this touchy
Speaker 2: feely stuff. Oh, why are we going to do this?
Speaker 2: But to humor, he did this highlight reel. I said
Speaker 2: right down that your accomplishment, especially times you overcame challenges.
Speaker 2: And he's like, oh, I don't want to do that,
Speaker 2: And I said, let's just do it together right now.
Speaker 2: So we did. We did it together, and we like
Speaker 2: reminded him of him talking himself actually into getting his
Speaker 2: first role in VC, which had been ten years prior.
Speaker 2: We talked about even his experience in getting helping the
Speaker 2: firm land a deal they were not going to land,
Speaker 2: but specifically because of his efforts, they landed that deal.
Speaker 2: So things like that, and so he wrote more and more,
Speaker 2: and the next time I saw him and had a
Speaker 2: meeting with him, he was transformed. He's like, oh my god,
Speaker 2: I did this highlight reel and I can't believe it.
Speaker 2: It really works. It just helps me dredge up the
Speaker 2: things in my mind that I don't tend to remember,
Speaker 2: and it puts them front and center. And then when
Speaker 2: I start off reading that in a day, it gives
Speaker 2: me kind of like feel good mojo, and then I
Speaker 2: go tackle something hard. And then once I've tackle something hard,
Speaker 2: it kind of boys me for the day, and so
Speaker 2: it kind of lets me keep going even though I
Speaker 2: still can have these feelings of self doubt. That's what
Speaker 2: he told me, And that's one small example of how
Speaker 2: it works.
Speaker 1: That's so good. Do you think that, like there are
Speaker 1: some people that are legit that are legit impostors, though,
Speaker 1: like you need to like tell them the truth, be like, well,
Speaker 1: you feel like you're impostor because you are right now,
Speaker 1: but maybe someday if you learn the skills and work hard,
Speaker 1: you know you can you can be at the table.
Speaker 1: Or do you think everyone who says there it feels
Speaker 1: an imposter syndrome is not an impostor.
Speaker 2: Well, it's a that's a very deep question, but I
Speaker 2: will say it is right. I will give you this
Speaker 2: one little anecdote, though, which is that I spoke to
Speaker 2: Susie Battist, who is the founder of POOPOIRI do you
Speaker 2: know Pooperri.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, we'll tell me.
Speaker 2: Fragrance.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, yeah I saw a team commercial for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah. So Susie Battiste is a very funny statistic.
Speaker 2: She is the eightieth richest self made woman in the US, right,
Speaker 2: I know. And if you read about Susie, she like
Speaker 2: was like, you know, bankrupt and had all these things happened,
Speaker 2: and then she founded Pooperri and she you know, built
Speaker 2: this great company. And I said to her when I
Speaker 2: drew it from my book, do you ever experience imposter syndrome?
Speaker 2: And she said, I am an impostor. I've never done
Speaker 2: this before, right, So I think that that is very helpful.
Speaker 2: And then I think the depth of your question is
Speaker 2: are you an impostor and you know it and you're learning?
Speaker 2: Are you significantly under like under resourced in terms of
Speaker 2: having way too much self doubt and too much you know,
Speaker 2: like doubt in your abilities or to your point, are
Speaker 2: you a narcissist? And do you not have any sense
Speaker 2: of you know, your own you know, lack of competence Here,
Speaker 2: I think the best way to do this is to
Speaker 2: realize you're an impostor and you have to learn, and
Speaker 2: then to aggressively do what you have to do to
Speaker 2: learn and grow. That's the best way for all of us.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I find that a lot of people who suffer
Speaker 1: from imposter syndrome are very humble people. I don't think
Speaker 1: Kanye West ever feels imposter syndrome. Like, let's be honest,
Speaker 1: like he did never never, so he thinks he belongs everywhere.
Speaker 2: I know, I know, I'm happy to agree with you,
Speaker 2: especially about him, but I will say this, like you
Speaker 2: know this too. You don't know what's going on inside
Speaker 2: of him. All you know is his action. So for
Speaker 2: all of us, right, he's the expert on his intention,
Speaker 2: and we're all the expert on his action and his impact. So,
Speaker 2: of course, from our point of view, from his impact,
Speaker 2: of course we say that, But it would only be
Speaker 2: really finding out what's going on inside of him, to
Speaker 2: use an extreme example, to find out what's really making
Speaker 2: him tick or away driving him. And as I have
Speaker 2: coached people for the past two decades, I have been
Speaker 2: surprised at how many arrogant, entitled, you know, quote unquote
Speaker 2: narcissistic people or you know that's a technical term, right,
Speaker 2: but how many very arrogant people who come across as
Speaker 2: a certain way. Inside feel a lot of self doubt,
Speaker 2: and they're using this behavior to cover over their self
Speaker 2: doubt ineffectively, of course. But I think it's only when
Speaker 2: you really get in the sense of what's inside someone
Speaker 2: that you know what's going on with them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of people don't even know what's
Speaker 1: inside themselves.
Speaker 2: That's true too.
Speaker 1: That's true too, like a lot of us don't have
Speaker 1: access to what really makes us tick.
Speaker 2: That is true.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about leaderships. You've highlighted some counterintuitive leadership
Speaker 1: skills which I think are so interesting. Can you can
Speaker 1: you tell our audience about them?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Well. My first one is is that my first
Speaker 2: line of my book From Startupe to Grown Up is
Speaker 2: leadership is an unnatural act. And I think that people
Speaker 2: assume that you're supposed to know how to be a leader,
Speaker 2: or even that you learn to lead by going up
Speaker 2: through the ranks of organization. And you don't learn to
Speaker 2: lead because most people are bad examples of leadership. And
Speaker 2: also to our point earlier, it's like, what if you
Speaker 2: don't feel like getting out of bed? Them? What if
Speaker 2: you don't feel like, you know, having a good day,
Speaker 2: So everything around leadership is learned behavior, and I think
Speaker 2: people don't quite get that.
Speaker 1: That's interesting.
Speaker 2: The second thing, and the second thing in terms of counterintuitive,
Speaker 2: is that and part of why it is an unnatural
Speaker 2: act is that you have to do things which don't
Speaker 2: make any sense. You have to pray people and build
Speaker 2: up their confidence, even though they're the ones who screwed up,
Speaker 2: like it's their fault this happened. So that could be
Speaker 2: very counterintuitive. But in a moment like making sure this
Speaker 2: person understands they were wrong in blaming them is not
Speaker 2: your best leadership move when you need them to stay
Speaker 2: motivated and finish the project right. You know, it's counterintuitive
Speaker 2: to give people or unnatural to give people feedback, to
Speaker 2: give adults feedback in front of front. In fact, one
Speaker 2: of my clients once said to me, you know, when
Speaker 2: he wasn't giving his team feedback, I was like, what
Speaker 2: is going on and when and when? On and on
Speaker 2: and on, and he finally said to me, I just
Speaker 2: don't feel comfortable telling other adults what to do.
Speaker 1: That's interesting because it's.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's like an unnatural act. And I think
Speaker 2: that if you go through the you know, the things
Speaker 2: that you have to do as a leader. I would
Speaker 2: even say that something that's counterintuitive is just going back
Speaker 2: to positive feedback. I think that people think, oh, I
Speaker 2: have to hold them My most important job as leaders
Speaker 2: hold them accountable. My most important job as a leader
Speaker 2: is to like, you know, give them feedback and tell
Speaker 2: them what's going wrong. Not really could be that your
Speaker 2: most important job as a leader is to praise them
Speaker 2: and show them what's going right in order to give
Speaker 2: them confidence and build them up so they will take
Speaker 2: the action you want them to take and be proactive
Speaker 2: and be diligent and you know, kind of go above
Speaker 2: and beyond. So I think that praise is your superpower
Speaker 2: and a secret weapon that people don't use enough praise.
Speaker 1: Is there is there a good kind of praise, bad
Speaker 1: kind of praise? Have you noticed, you know, any kind
Speaker 1: of differentiation? There is there more productive kinds of praise?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, yeah, definitely. Long ago, I taught in this
Speaker 2: new manager training program when I was, you know, a
Speaker 2: Newish coach and I was still doing this kind of
Speaker 2: like facilitated training. One of the women and that we
Speaker 2: were talking about feedback and negative feedback and positive feedback,
Speaker 2: and one women said, I don't like getting positive feedback,
Speaker 2: and they were almost like, really tell us more. How come?
Speaker 2: And she said, because when I get negative feedback, they
Speaker 2: explained to me what's going on and why, and then
Speaker 2: I know what to do. When they give me positive feedback,
Speaker 2: it just feels like, oh, good job, and it feels
Speaker 2: really superficial. Well there you go. So that's not good.
Speaker 2: Positive feedback has to be as specific as negative or
Speaker 2: constructive feedback. You have to really point out what they
Speaker 2: did that had an impact, what the impact was, right,
Speaker 2: So you achieved on you went to this, you were
Speaker 2: in this meeting, and it's not just good job in
Speaker 2: the meeting, it's you did the meeting. You first of
Speaker 2: all designed the meeting to get to our outcome, and
Speaker 2: in the middle of the meeting, someone was trying to
Speaker 2: pull us off track, but you politely and graciously but
Speaker 2: insistently got us back on track. And that was a
Speaker 2: really great job in that meeting. Keep doing that. Now
Speaker 2: that's good feedback. Now I understand, that's very good feedback.
Speaker 1: That's very good feedback. And especially if someone will with
Speaker 1: all self esteem, if you just say something positive about them,
Speaker 1: they tend to not believe it. Yeah, which is interesting, right, right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: what about if you're a leader and you're working and
Speaker 1: you're contemplating having a co founder. You've said that when
Speaker 1: you have a co founder, you have a marriage. Row
Speaker 1: scares me?
Speaker 2: Is that?
Speaker 1: How is that? So? Will make that's because I'm a
Speaker 1: commitment of phobe. But anyway, tell me a little bit
Speaker 1: more about this.
Speaker 2: We can talk about that if you'd like to, and yes,
Speaker 2: even podcast whole our podcast. If you have a co founder,
Speaker 2: you have a marriage. And the truth is that people
Speaker 2: don't treat it like that. They sort of they meet
Speaker 2: someone and they decide, oh, let's just co found together,
Speaker 2: and they don't talk about their life goals. So if
Speaker 2: you think about a marriage, hopefully you date for a
Speaker 2: little while and talk about your life goals, and that's
Speaker 2: when you know you're going to be compatible, not just
Speaker 2: today and tomorrow, but for the future. The same is
Speaker 2: true with co founders. You're going to be spending an
Speaker 2: incredible amount of time in this person making very difficult,
Speaker 2: important life decisions and career decisions and the life of
Speaker 2: your baby, your business together. So you better have kind
Speaker 2: of talked through some of the key issues. So what
Speaker 2: I have is a tool called the co founder prenup.
Speaker 1: Which, oh, yeah, I see that.
Speaker 2: That's a tool, yeah, yeah, to look at. So it
Speaker 2: gives you a set of questions to look at, as in,
Speaker 2: you know, what are our values when we kind of
Speaker 2: see the results of this business, what do we see
Speaker 2: as being successful for the future. How do we each
Speaker 2: handle conflict, how do we are how are we going
Speaker 2: to handle difficult decisions as we go forward in the
Speaker 2: pace of the business. And the problem is that people
Speaker 2: don't talk about that in advance. And you know, I
Speaker 2: worked with two co founders who one of them once
Speaker 2: said to me, I just liked it when we were
Speaker 2: fifty people, and the other one was focused on getting
Speaker 2: to five hundred people, as in building a really big business,
Speaker 2: and they taken an undure of capital money to do it,
Speaker 2: and they had never discussed their two thoughts about how
Speaker 2: they wanted to run the business. And so then right,
Speaker 2: life got in the way, and five years later they
Speaker 2: were really at odds with each other because they had
Speaker 2: different visions for the business together. So you have to
Speaker 2: talk about that in advance.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is really helpful. This is really helpful. Well,
Speaker 1: what surprises people the most about the journey of entrepreneurship
Speaker 1: you know, people.
Speaker 2: Talk enough about the ups and downs to know that
Speaker 2: there are a lot of ups and downs. What every
Speaker 2: founder has said to me, and when I'm on my
Speaker 2: podcast also called from Startup to Grown Up on when
Speaker 2: I interview founders, what they say is I knew there
Speaker 2: would be ups and downs, but I didn't realize that
Speaker 2: there would be ups and downs in a five minute period.
Speaker 2: It's like, on the one hand, the most important executive
Speaker 2: just resigned, right, It's true, the most important executive just resigned.
Speaker 2: And on the other hand, this we just got a
Speaker 2: biggest client ever and sold our best order ever and
Speaker 2: everything in between. And so it's like recognizing that it's
Speaker 2: not just the ups and downs in a given day
Speaker 2: or even a given week. It's it's the ups and
Speaker 2: downs in a given hour. And so that's back to
Speaker 2: managing your psychology. You need to manage your psychology through
Speaker 2: those steep ups and downs and find tools to help
Speaker 2: you stand in even keel and not go crazy in
Speaker 2: this extreme work environment. That's one thing that surprises people
Speaker 2: on the journey of entrepreneurship.
Speaker 1: Oh, do we get another one or is it like
Speaker 1: read the book get another one? Well, a bonus, a
Speaker 1: bonus thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think a bonus thing I do too, Yeah,
Speaker 2: thank you. I think a bonus thing is when you're
Speaker 2: the founder, you're starting the business, it's like, as I
Speaker 2: always say, like two guys in a beer camp. It's like, uh,
Speaker 2: it is the two of you there, and you're doing
Speaker 2: whatever you're doing. And then you hire eight people and
Speaker 2: you're just all eight of you, kind of like kind
Speaker 2: of the version of playing house, like playing company, and
Speaker 2: then you got twenty people and you know, now suddenly
Speaker 2: you're a real company. And it's surprising to entrepreneurs how
Speaker 2: quickly they have to make a shift from we're just
Speaker 2: making it all up to structure and communication. One of
Speaker 2: the founders I work with he did an all hands
Speaker 2: to his one hundred and fifty employees and definitely was
Speaker 2: super flip and like, oh, we're just making it all up,
Speaker 2: and uh, you know, well, I'm sure we'll figure it out,
Speaker 2: and if we don't, you know, we'll be okay. And
Speaker 2: his head of HR came to him and said, you know,
Speaker 2: you guys did that when it was like twenty five people,
Speaker 2: but we're now over one hundred people and there are
Speaker 2: people making mortgage decisions based on what we do with
Speaker 2: this company. There are people who are relying on you.
Speaker 2: You can't be flipped and say, oh, we're just making
Speaker 2: it up as we go along anymore. And I think
Speaker 2: that's that quick transition is very surprising for entrepreneurs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean, there's a lot of responsibility being
Speaker 1: an entrepreneur, being leading a Companying a leader is a
Speaker 1: lot of responsibility. I mean, this is not a profound
Speaker 1: statement that I'm saying. It's an obvious statement. But I
Speaker 1: don't know how often leaders really reflect on that fact,
Speaker 1: that obvious fact exactly and think about the perspective of
Speaker 1: every single employee, you know, like perspective taking, because they
Speaker 1: often tend to think about it from the perspective of
Speaker 1: them and their company and the bottom line. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very very accurate.
Speaker 1: Thank you forgiving meself that bonus one. Is it true
Speaker 1: that you love meetings? I read somewhere that you.
Speaker 2: Will that is true. I love me. I love meetings.
Speaker 2: I'm like one of those. Actually I should say I
Speaker 2: love the I know, I know, it's like, how did
Speaker 2: this happen? I've outed myself now with kettlebells and with meetings.
Speaker 2: I love the potential of meetings. You get all these
Speaker 2: great people in the room. We're trying to do something,
Speaker 2: We're solving a problem. It's a dynamic experience. Unfortunately, most
Speaker 2: people don't have that experience of meetings because they don't
Speaker 2: do enough work preparing for the meeting, and they don't
Speaker 2: do enough work thinking about how they're going to keep
Speaker 2: the meeting on track, and then they certainly don't do
Speaker 2: enough work at the end of the meeting asking my
Speaker 2: three questions to end the meeting, here you go, would
Speaker 2: you like to hear my three questions? Of course, of course,
Speaker 2: what do we decide here? Who else needs to know?
Speaker 2: And who will do what by when? If you just
Speaker 2: add those questions to your meetings, you'll make progress. What
Speaker 2: people don't like about meetings is that they're boring, they're
Speaker 2: a waste of time, and then we just go back
Speaker 2: and re meet on the same topics. But if you
Speaker 2: follow my process about having an agenda, keeping it on track,
Speaker 2: and asking those three questions to end the meeting, you
Speaker 2: two will love meetings.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Even if you like you have ten meetings
Speaker 1: in the same day, we still love the tenth meeting.
Speaker 2: I know, get up and walk around go swing your
Speaker 2: kettlebells and try to schedule a fewer than ten meetings
Speaker 2: in the day.
Speaker 1: I acknowledge that I'm being a little bit contraryan today,
Speaker 1: I recognize I'm being a little Contrarriyan today, you be you.
Speaker 2: I love you the way you are.
Speaker 1: Thank you, and I love you the way you are.
Speaker 1: I got really bored with podcast conversations where I'm just
Speaker 1: asking questions and the personal answers and then I move on.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean? I find those those
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I'm just boring.
Speaker 2: Yeah no, I love your conversational style.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Go on. Okay before those who watch the
Speaker 1: YouTube video will be rewarded by that. Okay, you started
Speaker 1: this podcast called From Startup to grown Up, which is
Speaker 1: obviously the name of your book, So it's not that
Speaker 1: shocking that's your podcast. But why did you create the podcast?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And uh and have you? Are you learning from it yourself?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm learning so much. I created so In
Speaker 2: my book, as you pointed out, also called from Startup
Speaker 2: to grown Up, I interviewed eleven founders to talk to
Speaker 2: them about their journeys from founder to leader. And I
Speaker 2: love those conversations. That's about culture, and I asked about
Speaker 2: tactics for hiring and for feedback, and how to manage
Speaker 2: your board, and how to manage your co founder and
Speaker 2: you know, all how to manage yourself. And I loved
Speaker 2: it and I could only, you know, excerpt all snippets
Speaker 2: from all of those discussions. And then though it was
Speaker 2: done with that part of the book, I was done,
Speaker 2: and I thought, oh gosh, if only I had a
Speaker 2: way to continue the conversations I've been having with founders.
Speaker 2: I know, I'll do a podcast ton of like no
Speaker 2: one's ever thought of that before, right, And so I
Speaker 2: started my podcast from Startup to Growing Up to be
Speaker 2: able to continue having these conversations with founders. And so
Speaker 2: far I've talked to thirty different founders and other people
Speaker 2: in the ecosystem about their experiences, and I've learned so
Speaker 2: much about the way they handle I just talked to
Speaker 2: Hubert Palin of product Board that episode's coming out in
Speaker 2: a few weeks, and I asked him, I really pushed
Speaker 2: him for specifics about how do you know when it's
Speaker 2: time to, as we say, upgrade on executive. How do
Speaker 2: you know when this executive that you have in your
Speaker 2: team who's worked very well so far, you've had them
Speaker 2: for eighteen months, or that you've had them for three years,
Speaker 2: is no longer going to be up to the task
Speaker 2: of what it takes to scale in the future. And
Speaker 2: I really pushed him on that and he said it
Speaker 2: was it was powerful. He's talked about how you know
Speaker 2: you have data that the job is not being done.
Speaker 2: You can see the job is not being done. You
Speaker 2: have a sense that they're overwhelmed. They talk about being overwhelmed,
Speaker 2: but they aren't able to do anything about it. And
Speaker 2: also their own self awareness is missing, that there are
Speaker 2: gaps here. And if you can kind of have all
Speaker 2: those things together, you definitely have a strong sense that
Speaker 2: an executive is not going to scale to the next level.
Speaker 2: And I thought, I've never heard it said that beautifully.
Speaker 2: That's that's perfect. So that's the one example of all
Speaker 2: the many, many, many things I've learned from the founders
Speaker 2: I've talked to on my podcast, from Sharotte to grown Up.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Did you see them the new movie it's
Speaker 1: I think it's still out in the theaters. It's called Tar.
Speaker 2: No tell me about it?
Speaker 1: Oh boy, Well, it's about a musical classical music conductor
Speaker 1: who's very esteemed, but she doesn't turn out to be
Speaker 1: the best leader. And I just I feel like she
Speaker 1: could have used to read your book. That's all I'm
Speaker 1: gonna say. I don't want to spoil spoil the great well.
Speaker 2: I want to see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you you would like it. Yeah, Okay. Now, look,
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot about advice for entrepreneurs for leaders.
Speaker 1: What if you're listening to the Psychology podcast and you're like,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm a leader. Let's be honest. You're listening
Speaker 1: to this. Someone's listening. They're like, let'n't be honest. I'm
Speaker 1: not a leader and I don't really care that much
Speaker 1: for entrepreneurship. But is there anything I can learn here
Speaker 1: to help me still reach my goals in my life?
Speaker 2: Absolutely, I want to say this. I would just say this,
Speaker 2: you know, I really want to come back to the
Speaker 2: first person you lead every day is the one who
Speaker 2: wakes up in your pajamas and if you hopefully exactly
Speaker 2: maybe not hire way.
Speaker 1: Yeah, go on.
Speaker 2: If you aspire to anything in your life that's more
Speaker 2: than what you have, now, my book and my tools
Speaker 2: will help you achieve those things. And they might be professionally.
Speaker 2: Even if you are an individual contributor and you enjoy
Speaker 2: your job and you're going to keep doing your job,
Speaker 2: you'll learn how to get more and better from the
Speaker 2: people around you. If you're a stay at home parent
Speaker 2: and you've got people, little people dealing with you deal
Speaker 2: with little people, you will learn something from my book
Speaker 2: about how to deal with those little people called children.
Speaker 2: If you are in school, that you'll be able to
Speaker 2: learn how to manage yourself and also think about your
Speaker 2: professors as your board and manage your board. Yes, and
Speaker 2: so there's a lot of tools in the book that
Speaker 2: are very much applicable to people who are not startup
Speaker 2: founders are not leaders.
Speaker 1: That's awesome. What about those who are trying to pivot
Speaker 1: in their careers?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, I mean I think that's true too, because,
Speaker 2: first of all, if you're interested all in startups, this
Speaker 2: gives you an overview of what it's like to be
Speaker 2: in a startup. But also I think these tools help
Speaker 2: you think about how to excel in your current career
Speaker 2: so that you can use your experiences to then figure
Speaker 2: out how to pivot and evolve into a different career.
Speaker 2: Although I would also just say from me to you,
Speaker 2: the most important thing you should be doing if you
Speaker 2: want to pivot in your career is building a network
Speaker 2: which is deep and broad to help you get exposed
Speaker 2: to different people, different professions, different sets of skills, and
Speaker 2: help you kind of learn what's out there and help
Speaker 2: you find people who want to pull you into opportunities
Speaker 2: rather than you constantly having to apply to new things,
Speaker 2: because people who know you are going to give you
Speaker 2: a chance, and people who know you are going to
Speaker 2: refer you to opportunities which are not the ones which
Speaker 2: you're out there. And so blanket statement, build your network.
Speaker 2: It's good for everything.
Speaker 1: Good. Yeah, No, that's a really valuable information. Your client
Speaker 1: list is amazing. I mean the different people you've worked
Speaker 1: with in the range the range is also amazing. So,
Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, humans are human, right,
Speaker 1: Like do you find a really big difference between like
Speaker 1: Fortune five hundred company executives that you coach and like
Speaker 1: the startup person, Like, what are some differences and then
Speaker 1: what are some like common humanity similarities you see regardless
Speaker 1: of that prestige.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 1: Thank you. It wasn't on your list, I asked you
Speaker 1: a spontaneous question.
Speaker 2: Yet I can handle it, And yet I can handle it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 2: I know the difference the first of all the differences.
Speaker 2: So when I work with Fortune five hundred or Fortune
Speaker 2: fifty CEOs, we're dealing at a level where their impact
Speaker 2: is spreading through tens of thousands of employees. So when
Speaker 2: we talk about scale, the things they're doing are really
Speaker 2: with their direct executives and also in terms of public
Speaker 2: speaking to the outside world as well as to They're
Speaker 2: all hands in their company. So finding ways to communicate
Speaker 2: in that way and take action to then affect kind
Speaker 2: of that big battleship is a very different mindset and
Speaker 2: a very different skill set, And the CEOs of those
Speaker 2: companies are rarely, if ever hands on. If I shift
Speaker 2: that to startup founders, depending on what stage they're in,
Speaker 2: they're I wouldn't even say, depending on what stage you're in,
Speaker 2: they're always very hands on. One way or the other.
Speaker 2: There's something that is taking their attention that's very hands on.
Speaker 2: They can't just assume things are running. They also cannot
Speaker 2: take downturns in the business like, oh it's okay, I'm
Speaker 2: sure we'll be okay, Like IBM. You know, no, as
Speaker 2: a startup, you might run out of money. You can't
Speaker 2: be sure you're going to be okay, and so it
Speaker 2: can be a five alarm fire what you need to
Speaker 2: do if things go wrong. So I think just those
Speaker 2: different mindsets are important. And so when I'm coaching someone
Speaker 2: and the pace is different from that point of view,
Speaker 2: and the things we talk about is different from that
Speaker 2: point of view. With the CEO, we tend to be
Speaker 2: talking about the same thing for a longer. You have
Speaker 2: a fortune five hundred company, we talk about something for
Speaker 2: a longer time. With a founder CEO, it can sometimes
Speaker 2: be like game changer, over and over and over again,
Speaker 2: depending on what's happening in the business at the same time. Yes,
Speaker 2: people are people, like you just said, people are people.
Speaker 2: And I will be working with my startup founders who
Speaker 2: are who have very little leadership experience, maybe no leadership experience,
Speaker 2: and they are trying to get their team, they're trying
Speaker 2: to learn to delegate better and they don't know how
Speaker 2: to do it and it's hard, and I teach them
Speaker 2: how to delegate and I help them kind of build
Speaker 2: their own stuff delegation. Now fast forward to working with
Speaker 2: a fortune five hundred, a fortune fifty CEO. When I'm
Speaker 2: thinking of particular, he never learned to delegate. It was
Speaker 2: really hard from a delegate, and so surprisingly maybe but
Speaker 2: maybe not so surprisingly, we had to spend a lot
Speaker 2: of time helping him both learned the right techniques to
Speaker 2: delegate and also the right level of supervision, and he
Speaker 2: had to reshape his perspective, which is not about him
Speaker 2: and his leadership style. It's about his specific executives who
Speaker 2: needed certain things from him and their leadership stee or
Speaker 2: their style, their working style. And so I see that
Speaker 2: over and over and over again that you think that
Speaker 2: somebody with no leadership experience whatsoever would somehow be much
Speaker 2: worse at delegating, But actually it has to do so
Speaker 2: much with the person and what they've learned as habits
Speaker 2: as leaders. Same as true of feedback, the same as
Speaker 2: true as holding people accountable, And so we ultimately talk
Speaker 2: about the same kinds of things as well as just
Speaker 2: the inner experience of what it is to be the
Speaker 2: leader of a massive company or what it is to
Speaker 2: be the leader of a startup, and we just deal
Speaker 2: with those things together.
Speaker 1: I love that, and also like a common thing in
Speaker 1: common humanity. You talked about how a lot of startup
Speaker 1: people feel imposter syndrome, but you didn't say, like me
Speaker 1: to Fortune, five hundred people fill imposter syndrome too. What
Speaker 1: about the other end?
Speaker 2: I know, you know, as I mentioned before, ninety five
Speaker 2: percent of high achiever.
Speaker 1: Now that seems a little.
Speaker 2: Right. And whether or not you believe that statistic, I
Speaker 2: will tell you for a fact that Howard Schultz is
Speaker 2: an example of the founder and then CEO and then
Speaker 2: former CEO and CEO again of Starbucks experiences imposter syndrome
Speaker 2: and many other You know, in the sanctity of the
Speaker 2: coaching room, people will share with me their severe self doubt.
Speaker 2: There are moments of imposter syndrome. They're concerns, their fears,
Speaker 2: and that is, by the way, that's what makes coaching
Speaker 2: so beautiful, is that having this real relationship with somebody
Speaker 2: and helping them overcome whatever is going on, the negative
Speaker 2: difficulty and resistance is going on with them and helping
Speaker 2: them make a difference. Because my mandate emission is to
Speaker 2: make a difference, and I can do the leadership level
Speaker 2: if I enable them to make a difference.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it sounds like what sounds like you are doing
Speaker 1: that just that. So there's this book I really like
Speaker 1: as well as your book. I like your book, but
Speaker 1: I also like this book called how to Be a
Speaker 1: Positive Leader. Oh, I was worrying. If you've heard of it,
Speaker 1: Small Actions, Big Impact, tell me about Jane Dunnan, edited
Speaker 1: by Jane Dunnan and Gretchen Spitzer. Anyway, I highly recommend it.
Speaker 1: It's taught me.
Speaker 2: A lot great. I can't wait. What's it taught you?
Speaker 1: Well, it goes through lots of different things. But one
Speaker 1: thing you talk about is positive identity. I think that's
Speaker 1: often not discussed in the leadership context. How you can
Speaker 1: have a healthy integration of the work you're doing in
Speaker 1: a harmonious way and in a way that also having
Speaker 1: a company having a positive identity is super important as well.
Speaker 1: So that was good too. That was good, But there's
Speaker 1: lots of other goodies, lots of other goodies in there.
Speaker 1: I don't want to turn on me all of a sudden. Also,
Speaker 1: we are interested in Broadway, which I am too, and
Speaker 1: so this is something that we both share. I don't
Speaker 1: best in Broadway like you do because I don't have
Speaker 1: the money, but by invest by my tickets buying tickets
Speaker 1: to Broadway shows. What are some musicals that you've invested in.
Speaker 1: I'm just curious.
Speaker 2: The musical that I'm my business partner, Doroy Clark, a
Speaker 2: good friend of yours. I know, we've invested in two musicals.
Speaker 2: Doy is amazing. She's an incredible human being. Uh Toutsie
Speaker 2: the musical was our first investment, and right now, I know,
Speaker 2: did you see it?
Speaker 1: I did? Yeah, it's it's so good. It's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: like electrifying, electrifying.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. We love that show. And then
Speaker 2: also we're invested right now in a tour, not a
Speaker 2: Broadway but a tour of Magic Mike Live because the
Speaker 2: world needs now.
Speaker 1: Magic Mike Live Now is a casting still happening, because
Speaker 1: maybe I'll audition.
Speaker 2: Unfortunately you've missed and they're action oh dark right now
Speaker 2: in production. But you should go to Miami and go
Speaker 2: see it.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, Yeah, I watched that movie with my dad
Speaker 1: and it was awkward, just being.
Speaker 2: Honest with my dad.
Speaker 1: I watched that on vacation and we're like, maybe we
Speaker 1: shouldn't have watched that one together. But anyway, that's awesome,
Speaker 1: that's awesome. It's so great to have you on here,
Speaker 1: and like I want to end here just if you
Speaker 1: could just briefly talk a little bit about your own
Speaker 1: personal journey, because it's it was a wind It's been
Speaker 1: a winding road for you. It's not like, you know, poof,
Speaker 1: everything went so well for you your whole life and
Speaker 1: then you became an executive coach, became the number one
Speaker 1: executive coach and no struggles. It's been a little bit
Speaker 1: of a winding road for you, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean I was in the nonprofit world,
Speaker 2: and then I went to business school thinking I wanted
Speaker 2: to focus on why people do you know things in
Speaker 2: service of the organization or sadly don't. I'm business school,
Speaker 2: you know. I got all turned around and I focused
Speaker 2: on finance and accounting and strategy. I ended up a
Speaker 2: Price Waterhouse Coopers and the so called five year track
Speaker 2: to part and I just woke up one day and
Speaker 2: I thought, this is not it. I hope I get
Speaker 2: the flu so I don't have to go to work tomorrow,
Speaker 2: right And eighteen hours later I was rushed to the
Speaker 2: emergency room with the flu. Be careful what you ask
Speaker 2: for exactly, and then I was like down for the
Speaker 2: count for two weeks and I just thought, oh God,
Speaker 2: washed up at twenty seven. What am I going to do?
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do because I just thought like,
Speaker 2: this is not going to work for me, and I'm
Speaker 2: not sure what to do, and I'm also sick with
Speaker 2: the flu. So I had to kind of put one
Speaker 2: foot in front of the other and figure out and
Speaker 2: seek around. And the only thing in my head was
Speaker 2: the music in my head, which was to make a
Speaker 2: difference that the work of my hands matters. And that's
Speaker 2: when I met a coach, and that's when like violence played, like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, that's what I want to do, and I
Speaker 2: followed her around the conference and I was like, that's
Speaker 2: what I want to do. And then you know, I
Speaker 2: was too young to be an executive coach. I took
Speaker 2: coach training and I coached all my friends for free,
Speaker 2: and I ended up being the CFO of a startup
Speaker 2: and the head to judge of another startup. And when
Speaker 2: that all imploded in the two thousands, I just said, well,
Speaker 2: I'm going to become a coach now. And on Friday
Speaker 2: I said I'm going to come a coach, And on
Speaker 2: Monday I became a coach. And it's been one foot
Speaker 2: in front of the other since then.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that's awesome. Well, it's so great to
Speaker 1: have you on the show. And there's so much we
Speaker 1: didn't talk about, you know, but I'm sure we can
Speaker 1: talk again someday, I hope. So we can talk again today,
Speaker 1: I hope. So I'll tell people. I'll tell people listening
Speaker 1: one thing, just a little teaser for them, is that
Speaker 1: you have a really great script. You know, you actually
Speaker 1: have five scripts for having delicate conversations with people. That
Speaker 1: is super important. So I just want to direct people
Speaker 1: at www. Dot A l I s A c o
Speaker 1: h N. I'll spell it out for people so they
Speaker 1: can just you know, type it in easily dot com
Speaker 1: A l I S A c o h n dot com,
Speaker 1: slash five scripts, the number five and then s c
Speaker 1: r ipts super helpful, especially around the holiday family table
Speaker 1: when the topic of politics comes up. I'm sure that's
Speaker 1: really important, that's true. Thank you. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for being on this show and for all the great
Speaker 1: work you're doing.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. It was great
Speaker 2: to be here.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to this episode of the Psychology Podcast.
Speaker 1: If you'd like to react in some way to something
Speaker 1: you heard. I encourage you to join in the discussion
Speaker 1: at the Psychology podcast dot com. We're on our YouTube page,
Speaker 1: the Psychology Podcast. We also put up some videos of
Speaker 1: some episodes on our YouTube page as well, so you'll
Speaker 1: want to check that out. Thanks for being such a
Speaker 1: great supporter of the show, and tune in next time
Speaker 1: for more on the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity.