WEBVTT - Oldest Federal Judge Refuses to Retire 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:12.440 At ninety six years old, Judge Pauline Newman is the 0:00:12.560 --> 0:00:15.880 oldest federal judge in the country. Newman is set on 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.320 the Federal Circuit Court of Appeals for almost forty years, 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:23.720 and she refuses to retire or even take senior status. 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:27.320 I thought, what what will I do now? I don't 0:00:27.360 --> 0:00:30.440 want to be a litigator. I don't want to be 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.760 a mediator. I'd rather decide rather than mediate, as many 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.600 judges do. If I had a family by that time, 0:00:38.640 --> 0:00:42.360 I would have had who knows great grandchildren, I suppose, 0:00:43.840 --> 0:00:46.440 but I didn't. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:48.720 Take that path. I don't know why, but I didn't. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.680 Federal judges have lifetime appointments. But the Chief Judge of 0:00:52.680 --> 0:00:56.960 the Federal Circuit started an investigation into Newman's fitness to 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:00.720 remain an active judge in March, and filing alleged that 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:05.360 Newman has shown significant mental deterioration since suffering a heart 0:01:05.400 --> 0:01:08.399 attack in twenty twenty one and can no longer do 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.759 the job. It's become a very nasty and personal dispute, 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:16.759 and Newman has fought back by suing her colleagues accusing 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:21.480 them of violating the Constitution. Newman is known for her descents, 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:24.720 having written more than three hundred in her career, and 0:01:24.760 --> 0:01:28.120 she believes that's why her colleagues are trying to get 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:29.520 rid of her. 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:37.119 It may sound ponderous, but I think the nation needs 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:37.760 my voice. 0:01:38.880 --> 0:01:41.920 I think that if the judges on this court are 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:48.880 willing and more than willing to push me out in 0:01:48.960 --> 0:01:51.280 order to get me out of the way so that 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:56.200 no one says that they've made a mistake, that I need. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.400 To be here to countermand. 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.520 That me as Bloomberg Law senior reporter Kelsey Griffiths, who 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:07.880 interviewed her, how did this become a nasty battle to 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:10.080 get Newman to retire? 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:13.360 So this started about four months ago or so. It 0:02:13.400 --> 0:02:19.000 began with the chief judge sitting Newman down and saying, luck, 0:02:19.080 --> 0:02:21.480 we think it's time for you to retire. You should 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:25.280 consider taking senior status. And then basically Judge Newman refused 0:02:25.320 --> 0:02:27.959 to go quietly, as she says in her own words, 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:33.480 and that's when things got complicated. Typically, judicial retirement decisions 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.360 are something that are taking care of behind closed doors, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.480 and to my knowledge, we've never seen a fight like 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.480 this at least in current memory, where a judge is 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.600 being encouraged to retire even though she has a lifetime appointment, 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:49.280 and if she feels like she's not ready to go, 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.280 there's not a lot her colleagues can do except started 0:02:53.280 --> 0:02:57.440 the process that Chief Judge Moore started. So under this process, 0:02:57.800 --> 0:03:04.040 Chief Judge Moore launched additional Council investigation into Judge Newman's 0:03:04.040 --> 0:03:07.880 fitness to remain on the bench, and that investigation is ongoing, 0:03:08.520 --> 0:03:08.880 and there. 0:03:08.760 --> 0:03:12.480 Were attempts to get her to retire without any fanfare. 0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:17.480 Tell us about the visit by her fellow Judge Alan Lourie. 0:03:18.200 --> 0:03:22.160 So, Judge Lourie visited his neighbor Polly Newman in her 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.920 Watergate apartment building. They live in neighboring towers in March. 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.639 He had allegedly been dispatched by the Chief Judge of 0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:33.720 the Federal Circuit to deliver a message. And it hasn't 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:36.720 been confirmed that the Chief Judge sent him on this errand, 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.800 but we do know that he later reported the contents 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:42.320 of this conversation that he has with his ninety six 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.880 year old neighboring colleague, because it shows up and the 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:49.000 Chief Judge's reports later So Judge Laurie comes to Judge 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.880 Newman's house, they walk inside, they sit on her sofa, 0:03:53.360 --> 0:03:57.520 and he tells her, you need to retire. Retire now, 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:02.440 and Davy reputation, savior, legacy kind of go out on top. 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:07.200 And now this was a directive that the Chief Judge 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:09.960 had delivered a couple days before in a meeting with 0:04:10.040 --> 0:04:13.720 two other judges, and they were trying to convince her 0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:17.159 to retire. So I think the thinking behind this is 0:04:17.200 --> 0:04:21.040 that Judge Lourie is someone who Newman knows socially as 0:04:21.040 --> 0:04:23.880 well as professionally, and it might be a little more 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.280 well received coming from him. 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:29.560 That obviously didn't work. In your stories, you've written about 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:33.960 some of the evidence that the Chief Judge has about 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:35.480 Newman's fitness. 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:41.680 So the Chief Judges documents alleged that Judge Newman allegedly 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.200 had a heart attack in the summer of twenty twenty one. 0:04:44.880 --> 0:04:50.480 She allegedly was hospitalized and got heart dent surgery, and 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:54.200 she also allegedly fainted following an oral argument session at 0:04:54.200 --> 0:04:57.159 the court. All these things are documented in the Chief 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:02.200 Judges documents that she's released in this probe, and she's 0:05:02.200 --> 0:05:07.240 also interviewed some unnamed court employees and observers who supposedly 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:14.160 corroborate these things. However, Judge Newman completely rejects these accounts 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.800 and says they're kind of a fishing expedition to pressure 0:05:17.839 --> 0:05:20.479 her to retire and to sort of smear her reputation. 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:24.520 So without seeing documentation on the other side, it's kind 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:26.040 of hard to say who's right. 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:30.280 It seems really odd that you know, she would dispute 0:05:30.320 --> 0:05:34.000 something like fainting on the bench since there were other 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:37.560 people there who talked about it. And also, isn't it 0:05:37.560 --> 0:05:41.159 easy enough to prove or disprove whether or not she 0:05:41.360 --> 0:05:43.120 had surgery for a standing? 0:05:43.680 --> 0:05:46.880 So I think to a casual observer, it does seem 0:05:47.360 --> 0:05:50.920 like a relatively easy question to answer. For Judge Newman 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.440 at ninety six, someone who's been in the legal profession 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.960 for a really long time, she's looking at this with 0:05:57.000 --> 0:06:00.400 a very critical eye, and she's saying, I'm being to 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.159 prove a negative. That's not something you can make someone 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.800 do in a court case. So she feels like she's 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.320 being put in a really untenable position to offer evidence 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:10.200 that she doesn't have. 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:14.840 So you sat down with Judge Newman, how did she 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:18.280 strike you as far as you know her communication abilities 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:19.520 and her demeanor. 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:24.040 So I visited Judge Newman's chambers Friday, June twenty third. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.640 I sat down with her for a little over an hour, 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:32.320 and she struck me as remarkably lucid. I think she 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.480 seemed very well put together. She was walking around her 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:42.120 office and shuffling large binders, pulling out chairs and that 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.800 sort of thing without any assistance, and she didn't hesitate 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:49.200 to answer any of my legal questions that were actually 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:52.440 in quite complicated topics with a level of clarity that 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.919 you know I frequently encounter in big law partners or 0:06:57.440 --> 0:06:59.440 people who are at the top of their field. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:04.599 And yet there are accusations in the committee documents that 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:09.360 she had bizarre and nonsensical conversations at times. 0:07:10.160 --> 0:07:14.040 So I think some of the most shocking allegations in 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:18.560 the Chief Judges documents are related to certain conversations around 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:23.200 a employment dispute with someone in Judge Moore's chambers who 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:26.960 eventually left for another part of the court, and an 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.760 incident involving some IT staffers who are trying to teach 0:07:30.800 --> 0:07:34.000 her how to make her own financial disclosures. After that 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:38.120 employee left, My assessment of those two events and how 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:42.160 they kind of played together is that Judge Newman felt 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:44.440 like she was backed into a corner. She didn't have 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:48.720 the resources that she typically had to deal with routine 0:07:48.760 --> 0:07:51.760 things like filing financial disclosures, and at the time she 0:07:51.800 --> 0:07:56.360 didn't have the secretary's computer that is typically available to 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:59.360 her and to the staffers who know how to operate it. 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:02.120 So I think she felt, like I said, cornered, and 0:08:02.480 --> 0:08:05.920 like she was being forced to complete a job that 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:10.880 is not typically hers to complete, and with resources that 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:13.520 she felt she was lacking. So I think that led 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:17.239 to these sort of explosive exchanges that are outlined and 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:22.880 the Chief Judges documents about the bizarre, nonsensical and paranoid conversation. Now, 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:26.640 to be fair, Judge Newman doesn't dispute that does dust 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:30.000 up with it happened? She said that harsh words were 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:33.320 exchanged because she was very flustered and very angry about 0:08:33.320 --> 0:08:33.920 the situation. 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:38.120 She is ninety six, she's been on the bench for 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:43.000 forty years. She can retire with senior status and still 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:48.520 here cases get full salary. Why is she resisting taking 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.280 senior status? Did she explain that's. 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:54.640 Something I asked her about and she said simply that 0:08:54.760 --> 0:08:57.599 the chief judge is the one who controls the caseload 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:01.480 once a judge takes senior status. So she's afraid that 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:04.760 if she retires, she will completely give up her ability 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.360 to have any level of activity on the court. She 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:11.120 believes that the chief judge would simply refuse to give 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:11.720 her cases. 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:15.400 The bigger question is why doesn't she want to retire 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:17.520 at the age of ninety six. 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.520 Right, That's something I asked her about too. She told 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.480 me that she has dedicated her life to the law, 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:28.360 particularly to patent law, and she chose not to have 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:32.720 a family. She themed at me and then laughed when 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:35.440 I suggested that maybe she has hobbies that she would 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:38.439 like to pursue. You know, is there anything outside of 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:40.720 her life at the court that she would like to 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.560 make time for? And she said, no, this is my 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:46.160 life and this is what I've dedicated my life to, 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.000 and so I want to stay here as long as 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:48.840 I possibly can. 0:09:49.440 --> 0:09:54.480 She even refused to cooperate with the investigation. You know, 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.839 she says that she's fit. Why didn't she cooperate with 0:09:57.920 --> 0:09:58.760 the investigation? 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:01.679 That was another as that was really puzzling, as well, 0:10:01.880 --> 0:10:05.680 and her answer is that, on one hand, she feels 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:07.920 like the Chief Judge was sort of stacking the cards 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:10.760 against her. She felt that even if she proved that 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.240 she didn't have a heart attack or he's alected health issues, 0:10:13.559 --> 0:10:16.200 that the Chief Judge would never be satisfied until she 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.319 had effectively sidelined Newman. As I wrote in the story, 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.720 Newman is a prolific dissenter on the court, and she 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:27.000 told me that she believed her colleagues, including and primarily 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.920 Chief Judge More, are just tired of dealing with that 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:31.040 level of scrutiny. 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.920 The investigation has morphed from one into her fitness to 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:39.680 be an active judge to something else. What does it 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:40.160 turned to? 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:46.600 That's right, So, initially the probe was focused on trying 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:51.000 to prove certain details related to Judge Newman's health. Now 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:55.480 that Judge Newman has repeatedly refused to offer the details 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:59.239 that they've asked for, they've simply backed up the investigation, 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:03.000 now focusing on the question of whether Judge Newman had 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.840 a good reason to not offer up those details in 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.040 the first place. If she is found to have obstructed 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:15.080 the investigation, then that could be cause for a finding 0:11:15.120 --> 0:11:20.040 of misconduct. It's also worth noting that the committee investigating 0:11:20.080 --> 0:11:24.160 Moore's fitness is comprised of her colleagues, so that's something 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.280 that Judge Newman has asked to change. She wants another 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:32.040 judicial counsel in another circuit to evaluate this with fresh eyes. 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:36.520 So she sued in DC Federal Court. Who did she 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:40.920 sue and where does that fit in with the committee's investigation. 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.240 Judge Newman sued Chief Judge Moore, who is heading up 0:11:45.360 --> 0:11:51.040 the investigation into her fitness. Judged Richard Toronto and Judge 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:54.520 Sharon Pros those are the other two judges that are 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:58.720 on the three judge committee investigating her fitness. The lawsuits 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:03.520 is really Judging new Woman's attempt to strike back at 0:12:03.600 --> 0:12:07.959 these colleagues that she feels are forcing her into untenable positions, 0:12:08.480 --> 0:12:12.360 and she's trying to get more eyes on this internal dispute. 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.640 She's repeatedly asked for the documents in this closed door 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:21.160 probe to be made public, and she's also asked Chief 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:25.000 Justice Roberts at the Supreme Court to take notice of 0:12:25.040 --> 0:12:29.720 this dispute and transfer it to another circuit's judicial council. 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:35.160 This is certainly drawing attention to lifetime appointments for federal 0:12:35.280 --> 0:12:39.760 judges and the consequences. And there are nineteen full time 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.120 federal judges who are eighty or older. 0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:48.559 That's right. I think Judge Newman's story is a really 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:53.760 great example of a conflict that we haven't seen before. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:57.960 We rarely see where a judge chooses not to go 0:12:58.040 --> 0:13:01.360 quietly and not to end their ten of their own accords. 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:04.920 So I think this could potentially tee up other fights 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:10.280 where other judges, in our aging judiciary decide they also 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:11.440 don't want to go quietly. 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:14.480 I mean, she is a formidable woman. She was a 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.920 former chemical scientist and the first direct appointee to the 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:20.439 nation's top patent court. 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:23.640 That's right. She's also a pilot and a one time 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.240 race car driver, so Judge Newman has had a lot 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:30.360 of life experience. She was also a bartender in France 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:34.360 for a while, so I think she has added patent 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.800 judge as her crowning achievement and she is not going 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:38.800 to let go of that easily. 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:42.480 And up until now, she's had a sterling reputation as 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:43.480 a patent judge. 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.760 Judge Newman is known in the patent bar for being 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.920 one of the founders of the modern day patent system. 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:55.200 She was the Federal Circuit's first direct appointee when the 0:13:55.240 --> 0:14:00.400 Court in its modern iteration was created during President Reagan's term. 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.480 So I think, you know, she's kind of been here 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:05.600 from the beginning, and it's really sad for a lot 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.400 of folks in the space to fear her story kind 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:10.200 of take this turn. 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.280 Thanks so much, Kelsey. It's wonderful that you could sit 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:15.320 down and talk with her and get her side of 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:20.600 the story. That's Bloomberg Lass Senior reporter Kelsey Griffiths. The 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.960 controversy over the announced merger of the PGA Tour with 0:14:24.200 --> 0:14:27.640 Saudi owned Live Golf moves to the Senate next week 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.920 as two PGA Tour officials testify. The title of the 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:36.520 hearing says it all quote the PGA Live deal implications 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.080 for the future of golf and Saudi Arabia's influence in 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:44.840 the United States. Lawmakers have demanded investigations into the deal, 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:49.720 citing potential antitrust concerns, as well as accusations of human 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.960 rights abuses in Saudi Arabia. Others have echoed the families 0:14:54.000 --> 0:14:57.720 of the victims of the September eleventh terrorist attacks who've 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.240 long said that Saudi Arabia has fed to fully answer 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.240 questions on any role it might have played. Joining me 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.280 is Martini Dell, co chair of the Sports law practice 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:12.720 at Gulston and Stores. So there was a disclosure of 0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:17.000 about five pages long of a framework agreement between the 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:21.760 PGA Tour, the Saudi Public Investment Fund and the dp 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.000 World Tour. I mean, what does it tell us? What 0:15:25.040 --> 0:15:26.000 does it disclose? 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:31.320 So it discloses a framework from thirty thousand feet up 0:15:31.360 --> 0:15:34.800 which has very few details. If you want to learn 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.000 more of the details, then the thing to do is 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:42.400 to see what the PGA submitted to the Senate and 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:47.080 in particular the Senator Bloomenthal, who is conducting an investigation 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:49.840 I think starting next week on July eleventh. And that 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:51.920 tells us a little bit more about the details, but 0:15:52.040 --> 0:15:54.600 still not a lot, because they're trying to keep the 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:58.240 details somewhat lose so they can go with the flow, 0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:02.880 if you will, and maybe try to avoid any antitrust consequences. 0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:06.000 But does it tell us about the leadership structure. 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:10.960 What it says is that the PGA chief will continue 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:14.120 to be the head of the new combined group, but 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:18.840 the chairman of the PIF will also have the leadership 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.480 function as chair of the new entity. 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.800 The big thing that we heard about is that, you know, 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:27.240 the Saudi Fund is going to invest a ton of 0:16:27.280 --> 0:16:31.400 money into golf into this organization. Are there any parameters 0:16:31.440 --> 0:16:33.560 for how much it's going to invest. 0:16:34.240 --> 0:16:37.440 Not according to that five page summary, it's just going 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.920 to be an investment by the Saudi Investment Fund. Not 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:45.080 clear if there are any bounds on it. Not clear 0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.400 what limitations Saudis will put on the investment. Not clear 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:53.480 what limitations the PGA would want to put on the investment, 0:16:53.960 --> 0:16:59.000 assuming of course that it's all not challenged by either 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:03.240 the US regular or the EC regulators. Because remember there's 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:06.800 also the European Tour which is getting thrown into the 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:07.800 mix here as well. 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.280 It seems like it leaves out more than it puts in. 0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:13.960 Why even put out this framework agreement? 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:17.679 So that's a great question. I think part of the 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:22.760 answer there is the parties wanted to resolve the litigations 0:17:22.800 --> 0:17:26.320 that were between them at that point. PGA announced it 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.080 was very costly, of course, that's what litigations are. The 0:17:30.119 --> 0:17:34.840 Saudis didn't want the litigation to take discovery of some 0:17:34.920 --> 0:17:38.200 of the investments of the Saudi Investment Fund, the structure 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.639 of the Saudi Investment Fund. They just didn't want public 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:44.720 disclosure of this. So it is very important for them 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:49.359 to end the litigation. That is one of the details 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.359 that is made clear in the five page summary. The 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:55.439 litigation will end and now it has in Aside from that, 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:59.440 they wanted to discuss a framework for combining the various 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.919 tours in some form. Not clear what form that will be, 0:18:03.080 --> 0:18:06.399 but let's have a form. And that's what's going to 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:09.240 lead to antitrust problems down the road. 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:13.679 The Justice Department was looking at professional golf before the 0:18:13.720 --> 0:18:17.720 deal was announced. Does this in many ways appear to 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:20.160 strengthen antitrust concerns? 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.520 I would think so, you know, if the Justice Department 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:28.160 says GPGA, we're going to look into you for monopolizing 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:34.399 the professional golf industry, what would cause the DOJ to 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.600 back away from that now and back I think, as 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.240 you correctly put it, it's hand would be strengthened because 0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:44.560 if you have a putative monopoly in the PGA beforehand, 0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:48.600 now with PGA controlling both the Live Tour and the 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:53.359 European Tour, it's a greater monopolist with more control over 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:57.480 the marketplace, the ability to set prices and control output. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:03.240 And also Live was suing the pace alleging anti trust violations. 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.480 So a major part of this new entity has said 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:11.040 there were anti trust violations even before it became a 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:13.800 larger entity. How do they back away from that? Now? 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:17.159 Money talks, nobody walks, They don't back off of that. 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.959 I'm sorry to be glib about it, but you know, 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:25.439 the Live Tour now says, oh, well, you know, what 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:29.080 we did for litigation purposes doesn't matter now that we're 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.240 in a business relationship. But of course it matters. And 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:34.920 the questions the justice part will have to look into 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.280 is how will this affect consumers, how will this affect players, 0:19:39.880 --> 0:19:44.040 and how will this affect media contracts out there and others. 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.840 We look at the different constituencies who are likely to 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.560 be affected. If this is a merger of some sort, 0:19:50.800 --> 0:19:54.360 and you know, we don't have to focus on the 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.280 term merger to call it a merger. If there's no 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:03.520 more competition for the PGA because it's eliminated computative competitors, 0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:05.880 then we have at the facto merger. 0:20:06.720 --> 0:20:10.520 I understand that there are almost no outside bankers or 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:16.160 lawyers involved in the negotiations up until the five page 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:21.720 framework agreement, and we had j. Monahan, who is the 0:20:21.880 --> 0:20:25.800 PGA Tour Commissioner, saying that the deal will quote take 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:30.880 the competitor off of the board, seemingly saying, hey, doj 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.560 there are anti trust concerns here? I mean, do you 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:36.879 think they would have done better if they had at 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:39.399 least had some anti trust lawyers there. 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:45.479 He wouldn't have made so candid a statement. Yes, I 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.439 think he would have done better had he been counseled 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:54.440 by attorneys on this. I mean, basically, as you notice here, J. 0:20:54.720 --> 0:20:57.240 Monahannis said, hey, look at us. We've gotten rid of 0:20:57.280 --> 0:21:02.119 the competition, which is what anti trust is abound. You know, 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.000 are we getting rid of the competition in order to 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:09.480 increase prices or reduce output out there? And you know 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:15.200 there are two overriding antitrust concerns. One is is this 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:20.439 going to affect professional golf in an adverse way? And 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.560 how will the players be affected? You know, will the 0:21:23.600 --> 0:21:27.320 pots be reduced or will they be kept below market 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.880 size because there's nobody competing for the player's attention anymore. 0:21:32.720 --> 0:21:36.040 There are side issues, of course, such as the PGA 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.840 players who turn down the live bonuses and are now 0:21:40.000 --> 0:21:44.000 ruining that fact now that they're combining with the live tour. 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.080 But that's not an antitrust concern. The anti trust concern 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.280 is how will these players be affected in the long term. 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.200 It's an employment matter. And the second is how will 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:56.920 fans and the media be affected in the long term. 0:21:56.960 --> 0:22:01.360 We'll receive reduction of output or output at least below 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:03.680 what the market otherwise would bear. 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.080 The deal could be reviewed, sorry, the deal could be 0:22:08.200 --> 0:22:11.560 reviewed by SYPHIUS, which is the Committee on Foreign Investment 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:16.280 in the US. It analyzes mergers regarding potential threats to 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:20.960 the nation's security. I mean, on the surface, it may 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:26.000 not need to investigate this, but then there are always 0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:27.760 details that it might. 0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.679 So I think June that's a really fair point. I mean, 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:37.639 we're going to have a lot of investigation. Senate Antitrust 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:42.119 Subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee is going to look into this. 0:22:42.680 --> 0:22:46.480 I believe Senator Bloominghoal is tst scheduled hearings for next 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:50.520 week on this matter. We can have SIPIUS look at it, 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:57.000 because now you're having a major country's wealth fund invest 0:22:57.240 --> 0:23:00.720 in a uniquely what was formerly at least the uniquely 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:07.639 American event, namely the PGA. With the addition of the 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:11.440 European Tour, we're going to have the European regulators look 0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:15.080 at this as well. You know, how is this going 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:18.720 to affect the European tour that's now being thrown into 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:25.919 this PGA Saudi or PIF fund merger. So we have 0:23:26.200 --> 0:23:29.640 different committees looking at it. We have the Justice Department 0:23:29.680 --> 0:23:33.000 looking at it, and maybe we'll have some states attorney 0:23:33.040 --> 0:23:37.159 generals looking at it under the many Sherman Acts in 0:23:37.280 --> 0:23:38.720 various states. 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:41.119 Marty, I mean, can the Senate do anything really to 0:23:41.160 --> 0:23:42.040 stop this deal? 0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:47.520 The Senate can enact legislation which either can facilitate or 0:23:47.600 --> 0:23:52.320 make this more difficult. So let's go back historically, and 0:23:52.359 --> 0:23:56.600 I'll thank you, back about sixty plus years to the 0:23:56.640 --> 0:24:02.160 merger of the AFL and the NFL to Big Football powers. 0:24:03.119 --> 0:24:08.360 To have that merger go through required a law, and 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:11.680 we saw that in the Sports Broadcasting Act of nineteen 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:15.720 sixty five that facilitated the merger because it exempted it 0:24:15.760 --> 0:24:22.920 from antitrust scrutiny. We could have that here. Unlikely given 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:26.520 the current frame of mind in Congress and the Justice Department, 0:24:26.560 --> 0:24:31.040 that Congress would pass a law to exempt this merger 0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:34.720 from the antitrust laws, but they could also voice their 0:24:34.800 --> 0:24:38.920 concern about it and send that concern to the Justice Department, 0:24:38.920 --> 0:24:41.880 which would create even more pressure on the Justice Department 0:24:42.400 --> 0:24:46.520 to bring a lawsuit to stop the merger from proceeding. 0:24:47.560 --> 0:24:51.359 Some lawmakers have also threatened to strip the tour of 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:55.960 its tax exempt status. So problematic would that be? 0:24:56.119 --> 0:24:59.240 Ye, well, it could be problematic. You know, a number 0:24:59.280 --> 0:25:02.919 of sports league started off as not for profits to 0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:06.960 gain some tax advantages, and then many of them switched 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:12.280 to being for profit corporations. I don't know enough about 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:16.960