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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 2: Trust me.

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Speaker 3: Trust me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lied

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Speaker 3: to you.

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Speaker 1: I live.

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Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two childless cat ladies who've actually

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Speaker 2: experienced it. I am Lola Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth.

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Speaker 2: Today is part one of our interview with our guest,

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Speaker 2: Tia Leving's, author of A Well Trained Wife, My Escape

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Speaker 2: from Christian Patriarchy. We're going to talk about the church

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Speaker 2: her family joined when she was young, how it was

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Speaker 2: connected to Bill Gothard and the IBLP, which is why

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Speaker 2: you may have seen her in the Amazon docu series

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Speaker 2: Shiny Happy People, How that charged and others she was

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Speaker 2: in grew more fundamentalist, and how she met her ex

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Speaker 2: husband Allan who was abusive From the beginning.

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Speaker 1: She'll tell us about the culture of domestic abuse and

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Speaker 1: the heavily patriarchal communities, including practices such as wife's bankings,

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Speaker 1: and how various church leaders would not only not support

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Speaker 1: her but would enable the abuse.

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Speaker 2: And next week we will talk about how much she

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Speaker 2: believed in it too, until motherhood began to change her.

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Speaker 1: This is such a beautiful book.

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Speaker 2: We love her writing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if this is on

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Speaker 1: some Oprah list or something it should be. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think this is going to be a very famous book

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Speaker 1: in my opinion.

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Speaker 2: We have to read a lot of books and they're

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Speaker 2: all amazing, but sometimes the writing is just so clearly,

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Speaker 2: like coming from someone who weighs a writer, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean? For sure, before we get into it,

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Speaker 2: before we talk about the patriarchy. Yeah, can you tell

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Speaker 2: me your cultiest thing of the week?

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Speaker 3: Sure?

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Speaker 1: So. A couple of years ago, there was these two

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Speaker 1: girls that were murdered in Indiana. They were like thirteen

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Speaker 1: and fourteen. It was absolutely horrific. A guy got accused

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Speaker 1: and I do believe he admitted it. His name was Richard,

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Speaker 1: and everyone was like oh fuck Richard whatever. Now this

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Speaker 1: is going to trial, and the defense is arguing that, no,

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Speaker 1: it was not just Richard, it's a satanic group.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, called the Odonist Society.

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Speaker 1: There's an expert named Don She's saying that there's many

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Speaker 1: ritualistic things that are found at the scene. Number one, somebody's.

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Speaker 3: Throat was slashed.

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Speaker 1: They're covered in branches, one was wearing the other one's clothes,

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Speaker 1: and there was an S written in blood on a

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Speaker 1: tree or maybe it was an R which holds a

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Speaker 1: lot of significance in this mythology. And so now they're

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Speaker 1: trying to argue of whether it was the's foreman and

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Speaker 1: a Satanic cult or this other man.

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Speaker 2: So his defense attorneys are saying, it's not him at all,

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Speaker 2: it's this he was also in the cult.

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Speaker 3: I see.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, the ways the body were found as bizarre.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the family members of people in the

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Speaker 1: group are saying that their family members were involved, and.

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Speaker 2: They are they're saying that because I was gonna say,

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Speaker 2: it sounds so sensationals and just like the Echoes of

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Speaker 2: the West Memphis three exactly, you know, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So, yeah, I'm really curious to see where this one's

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Speaker 1: gonna go. Well, same, bless this poor little girl's hearts

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Speaker 1: because it's just disgusting, and they were the most darling

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Speaker 1: little girls.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, God, I know, I know. What about you.

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Speaker 1: What's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: Well it's not that culty. Let's be honest, all right.

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Speaker 2: I had cultiness enough for five weeks. I had a

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Speaker 2: very very busy week. I was in like four states

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Speaker 2: or something, and one of those states was New Jersey,

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Speaker 2: which gets a bad rap because of the Jersey Shore, which,

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Speaker 2: by the way, Jersey Shore amazing. I love the place

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Speaker 2: on the show, but Jack Show, but whatever else. I

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Speaker 2: haven't seen the show. I'm sure yeah people love it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: But I was in this like wooded green area, and

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Speaker 2: I cannot tell you you has spiritually fulfilled I felt

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Speaker 2: by being in the woods. Every time I look at

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Speaker 2: my phone, I'm just seeing horrors, Gaza horrors, political horrors,

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Speaker 2: human horrors, climate horns, so many horrors. So to be

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Speaker 2: in the sort of like among the trees. It started

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Speaker 2: raining and I went out by myself, barefoot, spun around

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Speaker 2: in the rain like I'm in a fucking nineties movie

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Speaker 2: or something. And it was so healing and wonderful, and

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Speaker 2: I came back and was just like, would not shut

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Speaker 2: up to Jack about how we need to buy a

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Speaker 2: house in the woods, right, But then of course it

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Speaker 2: presents the problem of no one else that you know

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Speaker 2: lives there, so then you have to bring other people

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Speaker 2: to living with you in the woods, which then of

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Speaker 2: course becomes commune to cult, commune toicl Well, hopefully it

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Speaker 2: wouldn't turn into a cult. But listen, like, maybe I

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Speaker 2: secretly just want to live on a commune. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Listen, we haven't had the best experiences with people who

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Speaker 1: started commune's.

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Speaker 2: No, we haven't, but I think it's possible they all do.

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Speaker 2: We don't think I like any of my friends enough though,

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Speaker 2: that I would want to actually literally live next to them,

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Speaker 2: Like I think I would lose my mind. I like

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Speaker 2: to see them and then go away from Yeah you know, yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean you're commune. Would have to be people you

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Speaker 1: don't know yet.

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Speaker 2: Well, it would be the same thing two for two weeks.

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Speaker 2: I'd be like, this is amazing, and then day fifteen

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Speaker 2: I'd be like, get me the fuck away from Lucas.

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Speaker 1: That's when it turns into a cult because you're like,

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Speaker 1: go draw me water, Lucas.

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Speaker 2: I don't want Lucas to draw me water. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to get out of my space. Lucas is probably totally

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Speaker 2: nice guy, you know, he's just overexposure anyway. So that

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Speaker 2: was my week.

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Speaker 1: All right, Well, I can totally see how you would

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Speaker 1: feel that way on how I could get call tea.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. Yah, You're welcome.

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Speaker 2: All right, should we talk to Tia. Let's talk to her.

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Speaker 2: Just a heads up, folks, we are going to be

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Speaker 2: talking about domestic violence and abuse, so just know that

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Speaker 2: going into this episode. Welcome Tia Leving's to trust me.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for gracing us with your presence.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward

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Speaker 3: to our chat.

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Speaker 2: There is so much to get into. Your an incredible writer.

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Speaker 2: Meghan is your number one fan. I am too. But

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Speaker 2: Meghan got to read more than I was able to

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Speaker 2: and what we did read was incredibly poetic and beautifully written.

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Speaker 2: And there's such important stuff that you're talking about both

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Speaker 2: in this book and on your blog. So let's get

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Speaker 2: into it. So start us at the beginning. So you

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Speaker 2: are originally from Michigan, which I am as well talk

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Speaker 2: to us about life in the very beginning. What was

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Speaker 2: that section of your childhood.

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Speaker 3: Like, Yeah, I included this in the book for a

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Speaker 3: really important reason. I think it's vital to realize that

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Speaker 3: what happened to me isn't like some extreme, weird case

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Speaker 3: that isn't happening to a lot of other survivors. I

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Speaker 3: got a very mainstream, ordinary gen x beginning. A lot

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Speaker 3: of readers will recognize a lot of the little points

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Speaker 3: of interest I put into the to the early narrative.

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Speaker 3: But my first ten years I was in the Upper

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Speaker 3: Peninsula of Michigan on a farm. We went to church

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Speaker 3: sometimes my parents. You know, I thought church was important,

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Speaker 3: but didn't like it wasn't like our entire existence revolved

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Speaker 3: around it. If work needed to be done on Sunday,

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Speaker 3: then we would stay home from church on Sunday and

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Speaker 3: do the work. I mean, it was, you know, just

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Speaker 3: part of our lives, and I had a lot of

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Speaker 3: time on my hands. It was not, I would say,

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Speaker 3: very supervised, which is something I hear echoed by my peers.

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Speaker 3: Is kind of a hallmark of the era, but also

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Speaker 3: like a consequence of having very hard working parents that

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Speaker 3: just weren't very attentive, and so I was wandering a

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Speaker 3: lot and imaginative and reading. I've read. I don't remember

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Speaker 3: learning how to read. I always read, and so I

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Speaker 3: think I was probably kind of a handful to raise

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Speaker 3: and pretty precocious and got a little bit more of

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Speaker 3: a self identity than maybe I would have if I'd

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Speaker 3: been in a more structured environment. I think I have

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Speaker 3: called back to that first ten years in recovery so

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Speaker 3: often that it was important for me to include in

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Speaker 3: the book.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so then your family moved to Florida and joins

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Speaker 2: this church just because they're like, we feel like we

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Speaker 2: should be in a church, right, Like there was no

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Speaker 2: deeper thing there, like talk to us about that move

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Speaker 2: and that in enjoining that church in the beginning.

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Speaker 3: Well, so there's a lot of culture shock that's happening

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Speaker 3: in that moment. You know, we're coming from small town

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Speaker 3: Michigan to big, shiny new city of the South Jacksonville, Florida,

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Speaker 3: which is not as southern as some cities because there's

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Speaker 3: a lot of transplants there, but there was a lot

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Speaker 3: of like new construction, vergeoning energy, and it was definitely

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Speaker 3: culture shock for me. I had never seen a black

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Speaker 3: person before. I'd never been in a city before, I'd

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Speaker 3: never the heat. I was unaccustomed to the heat, and

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Speaker 3: just the noise in the bustle of the city. So

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Speaker 3: a lot of sensual, sensual, lot of sensory details. I

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Speaker 3: was overwhelmed. And I was also I will say, you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm a little neurospicy, I have ADHD I'm a poetic kid,

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Speaker 3: and so this was very overwhelming, this move. And so

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Speaker 3: my parents were looking for ways to help us acclimate

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Speaker 3: and find a social life and be in some sort

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Speaker 3: of structured environment. And in the South, religion is really important.

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Speaker 3: Evangelical culture is very dominant, and everyone goes to some church,

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Speaker 3: like you know, especially back then, it seemed like everybody

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Speaker 3: went somewhere. First Baptist Jacksonville was the largest megachurch in

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Speaker 3: the Southeast. It was on TV, it was eleven city

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Speaker 3: blocks downtown. It was an overwhelming influence in the city.

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Speaker 3: And so that if you wanted to be anyone, or

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Speaker 3: if you wanted a lot of wealthy resources, you know,

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Speaker 3: in a fun childhood, that's where you went. There was

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Speaker 3: a lot of marketing and advertising poured into luring people

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Speaker 3: down there, and so you just kind of follow the sirens.

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Speaker 1: Call eleven city blocks is easy to like roll off

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Speaker 1: the tongue, but when you really think about it, that.

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Speaker 2: Is So that's how big the church compound was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's one of the like the craziest parts

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Speaker 1: of the book is when you're taking the tour to me.

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Speaker 1: For some reason in this very beginning part was like

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Speaker 1: when they're like showing you cradles and they're like you

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Speaker 1: can be born, and like you die here. Your whole

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Speaker 1: life just takes place in this megachurch.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and they're very, very focused on the family unit.

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Speaker 3: So first Baptists, I don't know if it was like

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Speaker 3: this what movement wide in the evangelicism, although I'm newly

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Speaker 3: waking up to hearing survivor stories that do entail this

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Speaker 3: kind of generational impact where the focus really was on

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Speaker 3: getting the whole family, having something for every member of

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Speaker 3: the family at every stage, keeping you so that you

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Speaker 3: married there, had your babies there, raised the second generation there,

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Speaker 3: and so you have this long line fast forward to today,

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Speaker 3: and that's not how it played out. So survivors are

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Speaker 3: newly uncovering not just this religious trauma, but the way

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Speaker 3: that it's impacted their families and ripped them apart, and

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Speaker 3: they've lost you know, family relationships that are tied in

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Speaker 3: with politics. Now it's all in fine together by design.

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Speaker 3: Back then where they really put their focus on getting

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Speaker 3: you and keeping you at every stage forever.

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Speaker 2: Talk about the connection to Bill Gothard, yea and ideal.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Ironically his name is spelled got Hard and I

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Speaker 3: have never known Bill got Hard. Every time I use

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Speaker 3: it as a hashtag, I'm like, this is dirty.

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 3: So Bill Gothard had an Institute of Basic Life Principles

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Speaker 3: is what he called it. He started it in the

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Speaker 3: late seventies early eighties, and his model was to teach

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Speaker 3: biblical principles, so that he was crossing denominations. People were

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Speaker 3: coming to his big stadium conferences much like Billy Graham Crusade,

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Speaker 3: to study the Bible and to learn how to be

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Speaker 3: like extra devout Christian. And so there wasn't a lot

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Speaker 3: of arguing you could do against it because it wasn't

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Speaker 3: a certain ideology. It was like this an this is

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Speaker 3: a more devout way to be holy. And what they

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Speaker 3: would do come to the conferences and get you know,

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Speaker 3: strengthened in their faith. They would go out to their

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Speaker 3: home churches and then recruit for that movement within those churches.

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Speaker 3: So if you saw shiny, happy people. I participated in

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Speaker 3: that documentary. They did a really good version of the map,

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Speaker 3: like this graphic of the map where people come and

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Speaker 3: they disperse out and so they're going all over the

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Speaker 3: country and the world to recruit for this parachurch movement

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Speaker 3: within a movement, and so it cannibalizes from within. So

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Speaker 3: what that looked like at first Baptist, which was pretty mainstream.

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Speaker 3: First Baptist was like shiny evangelical culture that you might

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Speaker 3: encounter at LifeWay, Christian bookstores, veggytails, you know, pretty pretty details,

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Speaker 3: high level, yeah, stuff that people can relate to in

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Speaker 3: any if you've touched evangelical culture in the past thirty years.

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Speaker 3: First Baptist was like that mainstream. But then what was

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Speaker 3: happening was with within it, it was becoming more fundamentalists.

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Speaker 3: Because that's what Gothur's Institute is. It's a formula for

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Speaker 3: happiness that is built around these rules that you will follow,

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Speaker 3: the principles that impact your family life and narrow your

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Speaker 3: lifestyle just strict gender roles, high control parenting, high control

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Speaker 3: obedience culture, a punitive view of God, lots of legalism,

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Speaker 3: and the church members when it starts happening, you just

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Speaker 3: see these extra special Christians in your church that you

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Speaker 3: kind of have a respect for because they're willing to

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Speaker 3: be a level of Christian that maybe you don't want

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Speaker 3: to do because it looks like little house in the

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Speaker 3: prairie and you like shopping at them all. You know,

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Speaker 3: you'll but you'll you'll send them things, you'll tie to them.

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Speaker 3: You'll like these families given cars and houses and things

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Speaker 3: in our church because there was a reverence for somebody

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Speaker 3: to have as many children as possible. You know, like

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Speaker 3: they would show up with eight, nine kids, and the

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Speaker 3: rest of us were like, whoa, I'm overwhelmed with two.

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Speaker 3: I don't want eight, right, Well, they're really nifty Christians.

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Speaker 1: I think it's like, yeah, nifty Christians, but nine children

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Speaker 1: a lot of child I think it's important to note that,

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Speaker 1: you know, in Michigan, you kind of have this authentic self.

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Speaker 1: You're out in the woods, and then suddenly you're thrown

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Speaker 1: into this culture and you start getting really bad stomach aches.

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Speaker 1: You're not sleeping as well, you're full of fear, all

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Speaker 1: of these things. What about Gothard helped you kind of

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, this is even better.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really I'm glad you picked up on

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Speaker 3: that and you read my body was showing signs of alarm.

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Speaker 3: And I think if I was in that parent's shoes now,

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Speaker 3: like my mom's shoes, I would have been a little

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Speaker 3: bit more worried something was happening. But that's because I'm

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Speaker 3: armed with more language and vocabulary for physical symptoms manifesting

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Speaker 3: from anxiety. We didn't even use the A word in

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Speaker 3: the late eighties. So I don't fault my mom for

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Speaker 3: not realizing I was experiencing anxiety. She wouldn't have that

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Speaker 3: wouldn't have dawned on her. But that is what was happening,

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Speaker 3: and I was struggling, and I was I was suffering

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Speaker 3: with it and this elusiveness, like I was constantly preached

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Speaker 3: that I should have assurance of my salvation and I

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Speaker 3: should feel I've gotten saved, once saved, always saved, and

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Speaker 3: that this prayer I prayed when I was five should

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Speaker 3: have took and I should feel safe in the arms

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Speaker 3: of Jesus. And that's what all the reverbal reminders were

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Speaker 3: around me. But my body. He felt increasingly unsafe and

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Speaker 3: increasingly afraid. And so what I bawled the Special Christians

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Speaker 3: as were evidence that there's a secret they're not telling me.

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Speaker 3: There's more to this than they're telling me, And if

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Speaker 3: I just suss it out, I will be able to

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Speaker 3: solve this problem myself, which again is my whole upbringing.

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Speaker 3: We can solve problems ourselves. And so I really thought

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Speaker 3: that I was sleuthing. I was watching them carefully, and

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Speaker 3: I was sleuthing to see, Okay, well, what is the secret.

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Speaker 3: There's clearly a secret here where people are able to

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Speaker 3: do this and feel this in a way that I'm not.

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Speaker 3: I always felt like an outsider, even though I was

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Speaker 3: absorbed in it right.

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Speaker 2: Coming from Mormonism, Evangelical Christianity is always fascinating to me,

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Speaker 2: and especially this sort of intersection of different churches, because

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Speaker 2: in Mormonism it's like this is the only church. We

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Speaker 2: don't interact with other churches. No one from other churches

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Speaker 2: tells us what to do. There is one way and

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Speaker 2: one way only. But it's so fascinating how Bill Gothard

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Speaker 2: was able to get his clause into all of these

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Speaker 2: different churches and use influence in so many denominations on

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Speaker 2: such a broad scale. I mean, that's ironic.

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Speaker 3: It's the same message. It's the same message we were hearing.

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Speaker 3: Our way is the only right way. We don't listen

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Speaker 3: to other churches. Catholics aren't real Christians, Mormons aren't real Christians.

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Speaker 3: We were allowed to allow, for like, some denominational differences

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Speaker 3: like should you sprinkle a baby or immerse in baptism?

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Speaker 3: That was like an allowed debate. But but we were

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Speaker 3: ultimately the right ones because you know, Baptists of course

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Speaker 3: were right right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So you see these people, You're like, oh, they

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Speaker 4: have this secret.

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Speaker 2: So what did you then do?

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Speaker 3: I was, I think, just romanticizing that lifestyle. I mean,

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Speaker 3: my until I got married, it was just a fascination.

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Speaker 3: I was really at war with myself through my high

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Speaker 3: school years because I wanted things for myself that I

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Speaker 3: didn't think were incompatible with faith. But my church was

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Speaker 3: narrowing and becoming more fundamentalist, and so they were telling me, yes,

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Speaker 3: it is incompatible with faith to have, like, for example,

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Speaker 3: an art career, to go to art school. If I'm

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Speaker 3: only supposed to be a Christian wife and mother, then

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Speaker 3: I don't need art school. So I was in tension

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Speaker 3: with that until I got married, and I by the

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Speaker 3: time I was nineteen eighteen and I met him, I

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Speaker 3: was conditioned for short engagements to trust that if someone

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Speaker 3: said they were God's best for my life, that I

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Speaker 3: should take him seriously because he, as a man, said that,

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Speaker 3: and that any problems we had could be worked out

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Speaker 3: after we had the rest of our lives to work

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Speaker 3: out any problems, and it would be fine because God

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Speaker 3: would be in charge. So I didn't really feel like

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Speaker 3: I needed the special Christians, but I was still fascinated

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Speaker 3: with them because I thought, well, wow, they're a really

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Speaker 3: beautiful family. They're all sitting in church in a row,

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Speaker 3: and they're spreading in our church, and I loved the

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Speaker 3: little house on the prairie and Ann of Green Gables

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Speaker 3: and all of these you know things. And so they

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Speaker 3: were here living it in the middle of modern culture

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Speaker 3: while I'm hearing things like Clinton preached against and Murphy

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Speaker 3: Brown is the evil woman who wants a baby out

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Speaker 3: of wedlock, and you know, so it was very There

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Speaker 3: were a lot of case examples for who's right and

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Speaker 3: who's wrong around me all the time, and I just

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Speaker 3: thought that that's a harmless, traditional way to be a family.

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Speaker 2: What were the expectations that you had and that the

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Speaker 2: church was telling you about your future as a woman,

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Speaker 2: Like you have these dreams of being an artist, right,

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Speaker 2: and was that on the table for you at all?

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Speaker 3: Not in any serious capacity? Like the best you can

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Speaker 3: hope for is that you're going to be married, You're

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Speaker 3: going to have children, and then if your personal gifts

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00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,600
Speaker 3: and talents make an appearance in support of your motherhood,

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Speaker 3: it's okay to use them. For example, Sunday School crafts.

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Speaker 3: I could have been that kind of artist, or I

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Speaker 3: could have been maybe somebody who helped write a newsletter

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Speaker 3: for the Sunday School mailor that would have been an

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Speaker 3: okay thing.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, for you're married, Like are you taught any

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Speaker 1: sex ed or anything about your body?

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Speaker 2: Or what did that look like?

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Speaker 3: Nothing? In fact, I was just in an interview. We

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Speaker 3: were talking about American Girls Care and Keeping a View,

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Speaker 3: which is a book that was available when my daughter

386
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Speaker 3: was younger. But when I was her age, I was

387
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Speaker 3: hiding in the bathroom pulling out the Tampak's illustration to

388
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Speaker 3: kind of get an idea of what my body was

389
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Speaker 3: because there was no anatomy. There was no They didn't

390
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Speaker 3: want us putting anything in there, so there's certainly no

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Speaker 3: discussion about that. I didn't know anything could go in there.

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Speaker 3: I couldn't figure out how, like, because because I was

393
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Speaker 3: an art student, I was very familiar with sculpture, but

394
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Speaker 3: they're all limp and so I was like, I can't

395
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Speaker 3: figure out how that goes in there and somehow makes

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Speaker 3: a baby. And this is the seventeen and eighteen year

397
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Speaker 3: old saying I could not figure out how it worked,

398
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Speaker 3: and there wasn't anybody to ask. Right before my wedding,

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Speaker 3: I was given a book called Intended for Pleasure by

400
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Speaker 3: doctor ed Wheat, and there's a little more education in there,

401
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Speaker 3: but it's not helpful. It's filled with lack of consent

402
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Speaker 3: and that male pleasure is the only pleasure that matters.

403
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Speaker 3: And yeah, I wouldn't call it a helpful sex education book,

404
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:05,119
Speaker 3: but it did answer a few questions about the mechanics

405
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Speaker 3: of what would happen, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, my mom individually taught me the basics.

407
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Speaker 2: But even in the nineties, it was very similar in Mormonism,

408
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Speaker 2: and I wonder how much that still is pervasive today.

409
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Speaker 2: Can you really exist in the age of the Internet

410
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Speaker 2: and not know anything. Is it possible?

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Speaker 3: I hope not.

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Speaker 1: I hope not.

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Speaker 3: The Internet has changed this because I would have been searching,

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Speaker 3: you know, I would have found a Yeah, definitely, I hope.

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Speaker 2: I hope so too.

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Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, protech TikTok for that reason.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the internet's such an interesting place because it's like

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Speaker 1: over sexualizing kids but also telling them what suck is.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know. I just read some study where

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Speaker 1: it's like ten year olds have watched like three hundred

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Speaker 1: hours born by the time. Oh my god, it's like crazy.

422
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Speaker 1: So you know, it's a give and takes.

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Speaker 3: Both and yeah, right, and it's a place, it's a

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Speaker 3: place where leadership and parenting still should exist and there

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Speaker 3: I think we're in the pioneering age of it. So

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Speaker 3: we're still finding where the boundaries are and what's healthy practice.

427
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Speaker 3: And neither extreme is healthy. That's like true across the board,

428
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Speaker 3: no matter what we're talking about, neither extreme is what

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Speaker 3: we want. But we probably will swing too far the

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Speaker 3: other way when we're in reaction mode.

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Speaker 2: I would love to hear about how you met your

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Speaker 2: future husband.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, well he just kind of showed up Mayport made

434
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Speaker 3: Jacksonville's support city, and so Mayport the ships come in

435
00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:34,199
Speaker 3: and he did what we all did. Was when you

436
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 3: come into a new city and you want to find

437
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 3: community and you're a Christian, you go to the church.

438
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 3: And our church had a military ministry, so they were

439
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 3: marketing to sailors, and so he came as a result

440
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 3: of that. And I met him at a hay ride

441
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,800
Speaker 3: when I was not interested in dating anybody. It was

442
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,280
Speaker 3: kind of on the rebound, and I was just feeling

443
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 3: young and free and flirty and having fun. And I

444
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 3: sat down to a game of speed chests and that's

445
00:21:58,960 --> 00:21:59,560
Speaker 3: how I met him.

446
00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,119
Speaker 1: It's important to note your dating before. This is not

447
00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 1: normal no dating. Can you tell us a little bit

448
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 1: what dating looks.

449
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,280
Speaker 3: Like for you? It looks like the like a dating

450
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 3: show where you're picking a bachelor. So I very much

451
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 3: had a mission. My job is to get a husband,

452
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,640
Speaker 3: because my job is to be a Christian wife and mother.

453
00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 3: And a year out of high school, I was stale

454
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:24,080
Speaker 3: because I did not have an engagement security yet and

455
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,239
Speaker 3: it very much was that way. I was thinking like

456
00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 3: our church had weddings every Friday and Saturday. This was

457
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 3: what we were preaching at our entire lives. And so

458
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,240
Speaker 3: if you weren't engaged or going to college an okay

459
00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 3: college to get your mrs degree, basically meet somebody and

460
00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 3: then drop out of college a year or two in

461
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 3: because you're going to get married, then you better have

462
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 3: an explanation. And I didn't have an explanation. I also

463
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 3: wasn't getting asked out. There wasn't a lot of opportunity

464
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 3: for me. I had a couple of things going against

465
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 3: me here. I had a gay best friend, spent a

466
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 3: lot of time with him. That doesn't open up the

467
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 3: dating field, but much then I'm feisty, and I think

468
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:05,160
Speaker 3: that I was constantly told that I was too intimidating

469
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 3: and I needed to tone it back if I wanted

470
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 3: to be accepted. And it wasn't until my eating disorder

471
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 3: really kicked in and I came tamer and smaller and

472
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 3: quieter that any boys took interest in me at all.

473
00:23:16,800 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 3: And the two that I the two dates that I

474
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,840
Speaker 3: had before I met my husband, they didn't They didn't

475
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,520
Speaker 3: really go well. They were they were not They were

476
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: not attractions that that could have Like you know what

477
00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 3: dating is supposed to be, spend time with somebody get

478
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,480
Speaker 3: to know them, see if you have an attraction or not.

479
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 3: That's not what that was. It was. It was more like,

480
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 3: do we click enough for you to like me, to

481
00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 3: take me and make me your wife. Yeah. There was

482
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,080
Speaker 3: really no talk about chemistry or attraction in our Okay,

483
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,760
Speaker 3: that's not I wasn't even on thinking that.

484
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 2: Oh crazy.

485
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 1: Can you say a little bit more about the eating

486
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: disorder because it's something so common we see, Yeah, and

487
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 1: that I've experienced just from coming out of situations like this.

488
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think it's important. I'll I'll start you

489
00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 3: with my baseline. I was never a big person. I

490
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: was I danced color guard through high school, and I

491
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 3: was athletic, and I was fit, and I was I

492
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,679
Speaker 3: was soft. I liked a lot of junkie food and

493
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 3: it was kind of eating my feelings. And so I

494
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:19,360
Speaker 3: had gotten soft and I and I was stressing out

495
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 3: because I was I was afraid I was disappointing God

496
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 3: and disappointing my parents and my community by not being married.

497
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 3: And I was not sure what to do with my future.

498
00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 3: And so the pressure, pressure, pressure, pressure, and it took

499
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 3: my appetite. I got depressed. And then when I realized

500
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: that would result in weight loss. I took it too far.

501
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 3: I just I just lost my appetite. I mean, I

502
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 3: call it it was disordered eating, because it was I

503
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: didn't really think I deserved to eat, and I didn't

504
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 3: think that I deserved to take up space. My job

505
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 3: was to be as pleasing as possible, and if my

506
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,359
Speaker 3: body was being offensive, then I felt I needed to

507
00:24:56,359 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 3: get it in line, and that was in my control.

508
00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: Like it's as funny to me now because as a

509
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,800
Speaker 3: fifty year old woman, my body is not so much

510
00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 3: in my control. I can do whatever I want and

511
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 3: it's going to do what it wants. But when you're nineteen,

512
00:25:07,560 --> 00:25:11,640
Speaker 3: you can, you can you can force it and I did.

513
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,120
Speaker 3: And what that ultimately did was gave me a sense

514
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 3: of control somewhere, because I had no sense of control

515
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 3: over my life until that point, and so it was

516
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 3: really a sticky situation because that's not something I don't

517
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 3: want to control and abuse myself. But like for survival,

518
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 3: we have to have some control over ourselves, and so

519
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 3: I think it is a very easy slip. There's also

520
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,280
Speaker 3: an obsession with body size. I don't know if you know.

521
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 3: Gwen Shamblain's name from yeah, so she her Bible studies

522
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 3: were going through our church and this idea that if

523
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 3: you are hungry, then you should pray and like this

524
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 3: fast fast, fast, fast fast, And there's always like the

525
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 3: skinny white bitch and a cult. So like that's a

526
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 3: whole trope that's happening. There was a lot of things

527
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,879
Speaker 3: at one time, and then being soft or being human

528
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 3: or having emotions that I would want on a feed

529
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,200
Speaker 3: or anything like that, all of that was completely against Also,

530
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 3: if I don't know if you know how familiar you

531
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 3: are with nineties culture, but oh god you had Kate right,

532
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 3: so like it was over yeah, yeah, yeah, heroin Chic

533
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 3: it was yeah.

534
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: Calista Flockhart, Oh god, that was just fucked up time.

535
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 2: So are you watching Kate Moss and clost Of?

536
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 1: Yeah?

537
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, how tuned in took pop culture?

538
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:33,199
Speaker 3: Are you I feel found out? Yes? I was, but

539
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 3: I was sitting I was absolutely paying attention to the

540
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,320
Speaker 3: People magazine. I am a People Magazine junkie from my childhood.

541
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: My grandma had this old memory. I don't know why

542
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 3: it's coming up right now, but she's to sit in

543
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,440
Speaker 3: her recliner and watch read the TV guide and read

544
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 3: People magazine, and so I have always always loved People magazine.

545
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 3: So I was watching those in the in the grocery stores.

546
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 3: In high school, my friend and I had been huge

547
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 3: movie buffs, so I kind of kept an eye on

548
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:03,240
Speaker 3: like the world that he was living, and so I

549
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 3: wanted to know what was going on in the world.

550
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: I'm a storyteller, so I was interested in scripts and

551
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 3: TV shows and dramas. And we had the David Kelly shows.

552
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 3: You know, Alian McBeal is a great example coming on

553
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,480
Speaker 3: scene and so like these really like TV was changing

554
00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:19,880
Speaker 3: and the world was changing, and Friends was on TV,

555
00:27:20,040 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 3: and like the world was so fun and attractive, and

556
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 3: I had to I had to bottle that interest, which

557
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 3: is why I feel a little like, oh, you've discovered

558
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 3: that about me, But yeah, she was there like I didn't.

559
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,719
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have chosen the isolated prairie life that I

560
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,919
Speaker 3: got if I'd known that that was what it was

561
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 3: going to result in. And that's important because they don't

562
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,480
Speaker 3: lead with the results. They lead with the promises.

563
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,959
Speaker 2: You first joined when you were quite young, Like, at

564
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: what point were you like, I'm all in, I need

565
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,199
Speaker 2: to be a wife. I believe it's shit completely, like,

566
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 2: where did that kind of happen for you?

567
00:28:04,320 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 3: There's a case to be made that it was in

568
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 3: two thousand and three after my daughter died in ninety nine,

569
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 3: because I was really trying to be the best Christian

570
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 3: wife and mother I could possibly be. At that point, I, however,

571
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 3: had my skepticism was rooted. But she broke me open.

572
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 3: And I talk about her all the time because it's

573
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 3: impossible to tell story of my life without Clara. Clara

574
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 3: was a defining line where I had been one person

575
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 3: until she was born, and I was a different person after,

576
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 3: and I was unable to go back and force myself

577
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 3: into old Tia previous Tia, and so it might have

578
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,200
Speaker 3: looked like I was more bought in before her, because

579
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 3: I was. There was no contrasting argument in my head.

580
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 3: I was just I was just so oppressed and pulled

581
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: along and forced and I felt like I had no

582
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 3: options and no agency. But I know in my heart

583
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 3: I was just being led. I think I was much

584
00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 3: more complicit after Clara because I tried really hard to

585
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 3: know what I knew about it and still pursue the

586
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 3: ideals in order to protect my family and marriage. And

587
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 3: so if I'm talking about personal complicity. I am looking

588
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 3: at those years where I'm not so much in the

589
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 3: Gothard mindset anymore. We're more in the reformed and I'm

590
00:29:17,960 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 3: doing things like going to the library again, and I'm

591
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 3: homeschooling my kids with real books and I'm talking to

592
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 3: them and I'm feeling more autonomy. But I was actually

593
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 3: a mother of the patriarchyanful force at that.

594
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: Point, I was going to say, let's talk about Alan. Yeah, exactly,

595
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 2: how did you meet Alan?

596
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: And who was Alan?

597
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 3: Yeah? So he Alan? Who is Alan? That's such a

598
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 3: great question. He came from a small southern town, an

599
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 3: abusive home, a very chaotic, erratic home, evangelical upbringing, went

600
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 3: into the navy as a way to put his life

601
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 3: on a path. And I think that to this day

602
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 3: finds external religion and hierarchy of rules to be very

603
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 3: stabilizing because he is by himself a very disorganized, chaotic

604
00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 3: mental mind. He has a lot of mental illness and

605
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 3: history of addiction. It was all present then, but it

606
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 3: was masked, and when you have a short engagement, you

607
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 3: don't get to know the real person at all.

608
00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: And to Allan is your husband. That's who we're talking

609
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: about the.

610
00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's my first husband and the father of my children,

611
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 3: and he's the bulk of this book. So he was

612
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 3: young though, you know, he was twenty two twenty three

613
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 3: when we got married, and in need of actual mental

614
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 3: health care and in need of good mentorship. Like if

615
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 3: he'd had a man, if he'd had a church that said,

616
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: we see that you're hurting and suffering and that you're

617
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 3: prone to high control, let's help you, he would be

618
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 3: a different person today. But instead he was given more

619
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,239
Speaker 3: counsel to be more controlling, and it just became this

620
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 3: perfect storm. So who he was is somebody who loved

621
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 3: to study, loved theology, loved philosophy and intellect, loved learning

622
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 3: and reading, and so when he was met with problems,

623
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 3: he always went to like the next strict theologian for

624
00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 3: the answers. And we just in part narrowed because we

625
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 3: were looking for solutions, and we were asking those older

626
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 3: and wiser than us in our bubble for wisdom. Which

627
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,360
Speaker 3: is why I call this church sanctioned domestic abuse, because

628
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,120
Speaker 3: the solutions they offered us were abusive, and they were

629
00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 3: our church, and they told us it was okay and

630
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 3: God's design for marriage.

631
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and a lot of this stuff is coming from

632
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: women like and women that you trust, and older women

633
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: are giving you the council. I mean, some of these

634
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: books you're reading are so unbelievable and they're best sellers.

635
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: They're still in.

636
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 2: Prince tell us about some of those things.

637
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 3: Yes, do you got them? Dog heared?

638
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 1: I mean there was one that like had the index

639
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 1: in the back about like what to do if you

640
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,920
Speaker 1: want to murder your husband, and you were like, wait, everybody,

641
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: it's feeling this way a little.

642
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,040
Speaker 5: Bit, right.

643
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's The Excellent Wife by Martha Peace. Many women

644
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,200
Speaker 3: have heard about it in Bible studies in their homes.

645
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 3: If you have a Mormon background, you might be familiar

646
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 3: with Fascinating Womanhood. It's still in print today, it is

647
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 3: still online today. It's from nineteen sixty three. Teaches women

648
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 3: to modulate their voice and behavior and dress and everything

649
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,720
Speaker 3: to be a fascinating childlike woman. To Train Up a

650
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 3: Child by Michael and Debbie Pearl is self published, but

651
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 3: it's one of the most barbaric books on child training.

652
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,280
Speaker 3: But it feeds off pretty well off of James Dobson

653
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 3: and The Strong Old Child, which a lot of more

654
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 3: mainstream Christians will have exposure to. And the chain really

655
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 3: does go from like Dobson, there's some MacArthur and John

656
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: Piper in there, to the Pearls and then to Doug Wilson,

657
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 3: who's in Idaho today, still publishing books. His view on

658
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 3: federal marriage is where my lord's stuff came from. And

659
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,960
Speaker 3: the wife's spanking. It's like there's a spectrum of so

660
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,479
Speaker 3: it's they one leads to the other. So while they

661
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 3: will never come out on the page and say I

662
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 3: think husbands should spank their wives, it's imbued in the

663
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 3: entire atmosphere, in the behind the scenes advice that's given

664
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 3: behind the pay walls, in the men's breakfast, you know

665
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 3: they're doing the same thing women are doing, which is

666
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 3: exchanging ideas on how to run your home, be a

667
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 3: keeper of the home, keep sweet, be pleasing to your man,

668
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 3: be a good wife, when homemaker. It's all there. It's

669
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 3: just people don't know how to decode it and see

670
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 3: what's actually there. And when the culture shames and shuts

671
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,479
Speaker 3: down survivors, you don't have anybody to say, well, this

672
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 3: is how it turns out. Be sure you want to

673
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:41,479
Speaker 3: take that advice. You know, that's been missing.

674
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: I had heard of, like maybe wife's spanking and very

675
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: small individual cults, but not as sort of a wider

676
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: thing that's happening in any kind of mainstream Ish religion.

677
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 2: How prevalent is that in evangelical Christianity.

678
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 3: You know, I don't know, because it's a new talking point.

679
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: I think I'm one of the first to speak about

680
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 3: it plainly and loudly and openly without shame. My inbox

681
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: is always flooded with me Too's a lot of pastors'

682
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 3: wives I hear from, so I know that it is

683
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 3: something that is It brings up a lot of embarrassment

684
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:20,840
Speaker 3: because no one wants to admit that that happened. And

685
00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 3: then there's this whole period where you kind of rationalize

686
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 3: it as sexual kink, and so it feels very private

687
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 3: and can it be really this bad? And where does

688
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 3: this come from? And the kink community is always like, hey,

689
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 3: we have safe words and consent. This is not us.

690
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 3: They're always really adamant about that, just like the dog

691
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: trainers are like, hey, we treat our dogs way better

692
00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: than those people are treating their children. Don't use the

693
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 3: word train, but they do use the word train because

694
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 3: they're training women and children like they train animals. So

695
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 3: the evidence for those kinds of practices comes through listening

696
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 3: to survivors. And when you hear older daughters talk about

697
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 3: being spanked into adulthood until they while they were in

698
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 3: their father's homes like that, you'll hear that a lot

699
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 3: more prevalent adult girls being older girls being spanked by

700
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 3: their dads that you will the wife's spanking, because the

701
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 3: wife's spanking just hasn't been part of the conversation. And

702
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 3: I knew. I knew my book was going to be

703
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: one of the first ones to go there, and I

704
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 3: go there, and when I go there, I hear from

705
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 3: other survivors, So I think this is a point of discovery.

706
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: Still, one of the most interesting things that you said

707
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: in the book was that having Alan have this outlet

708
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 1: of control over you actually made him much better of

709
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 1: a person.

710
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so.

711
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: Can you say a little bit about that.

712
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 3: That as why? Well, it was also really hard for

713
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:42,480
Speaker 3: me to call it bad when it had a good outcome.

714
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 3: I was so confused, I was so humiliated and degraded,

715
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 3: and then it did the thing that it was promised

716
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 3: to do, which was solved for erradic violence. I had

717
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 3: somebody who would pent up his anger until he couldn't

718
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:58,560
Speaker 3: handle it anymore, and then it would come out in

719
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 3: this angry outburst that always involved physical violence, and it

720
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 3: was endangering my pregnancies. It was endangering my health and

721
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 3: safety and the children's health and safety. And so it

722
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 3: was sold to me as a method of well, if you,

723
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 3: if you submit to this level, then you will have

724
00:36:15,880 --> 00:36:18,640
Speaker 3: you'll solve for that kind of erratic anger, and he'll

725
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 3: have an outlet, he'll have a way of chastising you

726
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 3: that has agreed upon and he won't have to go

727
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 3: that far. And I, reluctantly, because I was pregnant, agreed

728
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 3: to it and had tried to get my church to help.

729
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 3: And my church had not batted an eye and said

730
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 3: this happens all the time. So that was the head

731
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 3: of a megachurch that said that. So I also just

732
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 3: don't think it's rare because he was not shocked, and

733
00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: he was actually encouraged me to stay. So I did,

734
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 3: and that is what happened initially for the In the

735
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 3: short term, he was so relieved to have permission to

736
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 3: hit me that he didn't resort to it as often.

737
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,960
Speaker 1: Wow, it's crazy and he's more regulated in your life's

738
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:00,839
Speaker 1: a little bit easier in a way.

739
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, it got me through that pregnancy for sure,

740
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 3: in the early the early babyhood and until he like

741
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 3: he would go in these like year and a half

742
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: long cycles of stability, until we got to the end

743
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 3: of that when my baby was about six months old

744
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 3: and he couldn't manage his chaos. Again, it got us

745
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 3: through that far.

746
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: Can you just very briefly walk us through the timeline

747
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: of when he started to become abusive and kind of

748
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,399
Speaker 2: how could just I feel like we've talked a little

749
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 2: bit about how people responded to it, but just can

750
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 2: you give us the overview of what actually happened abusive?

751
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 3: I mean, like that started when we were dating.

752
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 2: So it's hard when you were dating, Yeah, I mean, yeah,

753
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 2: you guys are out on a date. He loses it

754
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 2: and you you're not given the tools to know that

755
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: this that this is a red flag.

756
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,959
Speaker 1: It's more of like a problem you should fix, which

757
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,480
Speaker 1: I very much relate too. That's kind of how I

758
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: always saw things. You're not given any sex education. You're

759
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: mediately thrown into this marriage. What is sex like for you?

760
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 3: Assault? It's it's was, so let me clarify that the

761
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 3: first night was assault. He was again relieved to have

762
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 3: an outlet that he'd been holding back for too long,

763
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 3: because we the virginity until you're married is tantamount in

764
00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 3: this world, as I'm sure you're familiar with. And so

765
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 3: we made it to the wedding line without having sex,

766
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 3: and then he unleashed his frustration and direction and all

767
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 3: of that on me, and it happened to me, and

768
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: it happened in violent, non consensual ways that landed me

769
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 3: in the doctor's office with an infection, and that changed.

770
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 3: That kind of set the tone for the rest of

771
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 3: our life. He also hated physical contact and intimacy and

772
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 3: exchange of fluids or anything like that was very not

773
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 3: as part of his mental profile. He just doesn't he

774
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 3: doesn't like touching, and so sex was kind of different

775
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 3: than a lot of women will talk about. Sometimes they'll say,

776
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 3: like their husband's on them all the time, and they

777
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 3: have all this you know, requirement to be there for

778
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 3: him and say yes all the time. I only had

779
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 3: sex maybe once a year, a couple times a year

780
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 3: for the whole marriage, and they were like really quick

781
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 3: encounters with as little touching as possible. Basically, he would

782
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 3: wait till he couldn't take it anymore, be done in

783
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,040
Speaker 3: a couple of minutes, and then that was that. And

784
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 3: so I really wouldn't call it sex. I mean it

785
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 3: was it was perfunctory, and it always seemed to result

786
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,839
Speaker 3: in a baby. But that's how it was. I mean,

787
00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 3: I didn't know any different. I didn't know if that

788
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 3: was normal or typical, or if I could talk to anybody.

789
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: I didn't know anything like that, and I knew I

790
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 3: hated it. And eventually I got to the place where

791
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: I had to stop participating, like I needed to leave

792
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 3: the marriage across the board for abuse in all of

793
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,920
Speaker 3: it because I hated it and couldn't handle it anymore,

794
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 3: not because I was comparing it to if this was

795
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 3: normal or if other women were handling it. I didn't

796
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 3: care anymore if was normal. I knew I couldn't do

797
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 3: it anymore, and I wasn't willing to do this for

798
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 3: my children. And and so it was a giant hunch,

799
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,240
Speaker 3: like escape was a giant gamble that it was better

800
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 3: out that there.

801
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 1: And you're taught that it's like the best thing in

802
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,560
Speaker 1: the world, never materialize your life I've never given any

803
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 1: sexual education except like it's the most magical, beautiful thing

804
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: you'll ever experience. And I always, yeah, got a setup, dude,

805
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,959
Speaker 1: Like that is that is not you know, I.

806
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: Still get angry. I still grieve that they took my youth,

807
00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 3: they took my sexual vitality, they took they took all

808
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 3: of that that should have been mine because I'm a

809
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: woman who deserves to have pleasure and a healthy life,

810
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,360
Speaker 3: and they promised it. And and it's rought like, you

811
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 3: don't get your twenties back. I don't get my first

812
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: times back.

813
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,680
Speaker 2: Right. Going into this marriage, you had the understandings that

814
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 2: you did have around sex. You wrote about how your

815
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,640
Speaker 2: friend basically told you like, there's no such thing as

816
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 2: rape within a marriage once you're marriage, right, that's just

817
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 2: that can't happen. You just do whatever your husband wants. Right,

818
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 2: This is sort of your framework and understanding. There's like

819
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, I guess I just have to go

820
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 2: along this. I have no choice. This is what being

821
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: a good wife means. So when you did sort of

822
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 2: start to reach out to people about abuse or talk

823
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:18,120
Speaker 2: to your church leaders or whatever, basically every time you

824
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: are not met with any real help or support. Is

825
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:21,240
Speaker 2: that correct?

826
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,439
Speaker 3: That's correct. Yeah, yeah, it was really support for the ideology,

827
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 3: support for the system. How to fit in better, how

828
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: to conform better, be less obtrusive, less difficult, less confrontational,

829
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 3: you know, be more pleasing. It's it's constant. If there's

830
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 3: a through line through my entire life, it's how how

831
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 3: can you change to be more pleasing either to man

832
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 3: or to God? And not nothing's addressed when there's a problem.

833
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 3: It's that's why I internalized everything, because I was, you know,

834
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,120
Speaker 3: preconditioned to internalize everything.

835
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,879
Speaker 2: So when I was growing up in Mormonism, I feel

836
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 2: like there'd be all these justifications about like the fact

837
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 2: that only men can hold the priesthood or whatever, and

838
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 2: it would be like, well, women are equal, they just

839
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: have a different job and it's just as important. There'd

840
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 2: be a lot of talk like that, like were you

841
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 2: getting fed some of that same kind of thing, like

842
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 2: justifications for why women were lower on the totem pole.

843
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,360
Speaker 3: Yes, word for word, it's complementarianism. It's gender differences according

844
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,959
Speaker 3: to your genitalia. So men clearly cannot wash dishes because

845
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 3: they have a penis, and women can clearly not mow

846
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:28,399
Speaker 3: the grass because they have a vagina, it's.

847
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 2: Obviously a penis.

848
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: It takes you too far from the same.

849
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: It's just like that.

850
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: Wow.

851
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,479
Speaker 2: That concludes part one of Tia Leving's come back next

852
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:44,840
Speaker 2: week for part two, borrowing story like completely yeah, it

853
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: gets it. It's crazy. Wow, Megan, what are some of

854
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: your I obviously know you wouldn't join these churches, so like,

855
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 2: what are some of your takeaways from this part of

856
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: the episode.

857
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 1: I mean, I think one of the things that shocked

858
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,439
Speaker 1: me the most, just in reading the book and then

859
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 1: speaking to her as how quickly her OCD came about

860
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,319
Speaker 1: after joining this church. It's something I relate to a lot.

861
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 1: It seems like she was a super normal child out

862
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 1: in the woods experiencing life, and then after like pretty.

863
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,760
Speaker 2: Non obtrusive exposure to these.

864
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: Teachings at first, it seems like her mind just started

865
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 1: going to this kind of religious OCD.

866
00:43:29,760 --> 00:43:31,120
Speaker 2: We see the same.

867
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: Patterns of eating disorders and compulsive behaviors. But you know,

868
00:43:36,120 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 1: he's always thinking she's going to get left behind in

869
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:41,360
Speaker 1: the rapture. Just really interesting stuff that happened so quickly

870
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 1: for her.

871
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, OCD is still religious OCD. I can't believe

872
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: we haven't done a whole episode on it either. That's

873
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,359
Speaker 2: actually crazy, given in our histories, we need to do that.

874
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: But it is so fascinating how that happens, because I

875
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: think growing up like the way I thought of OCD. Well,

876
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 2: first of all, I didn't know OCD until I experiencing

877
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: it with something that could just be in your head,

878
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 2: like mental compulsions. I thought it was how it is

879
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:08,320
Speaker 2: portrayed in movies. But second of all, I didn't know

880
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,800
Speaker 2: was something you could like acquire because of being forced

881
00:44:11,840 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: to think a certain way over time repeatedly. I thought

882
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 2: it was like, oh, that guy's got OCD, Like it's

883
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 2: a thing you.

884
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 1: Just like have, Like he has to turn off the

885
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,640
Speaker 1: stove twenty times.

886
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 2: And he's like born that way, you know, But you

887
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: really can develop these these like thinking habits and thinking compulsions,

888
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 2: and yeah, when you're constantly being told you have to

889
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 2: do these things exactly right to get into heaven, and

890
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,440
Speaker 2: especially when those steps are confusing and contradictory, which happens

891
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 2: a lot in all of these religions, and especially when the.

892
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 5: Threat of the apocalypse is like or everything or hell

893
00:44:50,440 --> 00:44:55,200
Speaker 5: like it's it's really so ripe for creating that in people,

894
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 5: and I feel lucky that I didn't get that kind

895
00:44:58,600 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 5: of obsessing.

896
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: Yeah you should.

897
00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 2: I got a different kind of obsessing, or like maybe

898
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 2: like six different kinds of obsessing, but I didn't get

899
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: that one. So that's nice.

900
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 1: I will just say that prozac helped a lot with me.

901
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: That's nice. Yeah, Prozac's my little go too guy. Yeah,

902
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 2: medication can be really helpful for people, but also go

903
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 2: to get like you know, you're having cosions to use

904
00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,399
Speaker 2: an expert. Yep, I have to do both and now

905
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm perfect.

906
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,440
Speaker 1: Yay, just kidding.

907
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see y'all here next week. Red

908
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:37,960
Speaker 2: Part two. Leave us a review if you want.

909
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: Five stars, please only, and as always, remember to follow

910
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 1: your gut, watch out for red flags.

911
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:53,200
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me. Bye bye. Trust Me is

912
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 2: produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator, with

913
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 2: special thanks to Stacy Para and our theme song was

914
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: composed by Hollow Amber Church.

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00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

916
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult pod, or on TikTok at

917
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.

918
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

919
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

920
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

921
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.