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Speaker 1: Y'all already know that navigating the online world can be

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Speaker 1: tricky and complicated. That's why here at there are new

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Speaker 1: girls on the Internet. We just launched a brand new

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Speaker 1: newsletter where I'll be taking your Internet questions and conundrums.

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Speaker 1: To subscribe and submit a question, just go to Tangoti

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Speaker 1: dot com slash newsletter and I can't wait to connect

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Speaker 1: with you there. You can't pinpoint any violent act to

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Speaker 1: anything said online, but the overall raising of the temperature

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Speaker 1: is what allowed it to happen in the first place.

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Speaker 1: There are no girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and unbloss Creative, I'm Bridget Todd

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Speaker 1: and this is there are no girls on the Internet.

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Speaker 1: We are in the middle of a whole blown moral

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Speaker 1: panic around l g b t Q identity. In schools,

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Speaker 1: LGBTQ folks are being smeared, pedophiles or being accused of

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Speaker 1: grooming kids for sexual abuse. And this comes as trans

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Speaker 1: and queer people are already under attack. According to NBC,

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Speaker 1: state lawmakers have already proposed a record two hundred and

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Speaker 1: thirty eight bills that would limit the rights of LGBTQ

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Speaker 1: folks this year alone. That's more than three per day,

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Speaker 1: with about half of those bills specifically targeting trans folks.

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Speaker 1: So what's empowering these bills? Well, in part, it's hateful

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Speaker 1: online rhetoric, fearmongering, and baseless conspiracy theories about trans and

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Speaker 1: queer folks. And Alejandra Carbio says we all need to

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Speaker 1: be paying attention. My name is Alejandra Carravallio. I am

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Speaker 1: a civil rights attorney, UM and currently teaching at Harvard

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Speaker 1: Law Schools Cyber Law Clinic as a clinical instructor. Alejandra

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Speaker 1: has spent her entire life building power for and with

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Speaker 1: marginalized communities online and off. As we talked, she said,

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Speaker 1: in her office at Harvard, flanked by posters of historic

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Speaker 1: power builders like Sylvia Rivera and marsh to P. Johnson.

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Speaker 1: So you are one of the first trans women of

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Speaker 1: color to ever teach at Harvard. I guess my first

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Speaker 1: question is what has that been like for you? And

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Speaker 1: how did you get here? How did you get to

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Speaker 1: be doing what you're doing. Yeah, I mean it's been surreal.

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Speaker 1: I mean I've been very fortunate. I know you said

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Speaker 1: one of like, I was very fortunate to start at

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Speaker 1: the same time as my my dear friend Anya Marino

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Speaker 1: UM who's working at the LGBTQ Advocacy Clinic. We started

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Speaker 1: within like a day of each other um at you know,

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Speaker 1: at the clinic, so we kind of both started at

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Speaker 1: the same time as we're both the first transforman of

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Speaker 1: color to teach at the clinic or at Harvard Law.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's been a quite an interesting experience, Like

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Speaker 1: I've never been so close to like these kind of

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Speaker 1: centers of power this way. Like I grew up in

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Speaker 1: a very middle class like Florida suburb, like you know,

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Speaker 1: like Harvard just seemed like this like pipe dream out there.

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Speaker 1: And even then, and I went to Brooklyn Law School

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Speaker 1: and I did three years of direct legal work doing

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Speaker 1: immigration family law with trans Latine X immigrants, uh, and

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Speaker 1: then two years of movement impact litigation at the Transgenerallyal

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Speaker 1: Defense Education Fund. And then UM, I've always been a

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Speaker 1: bit of a tech nerd, so you know, this kind

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Speaker 1: of was a nice way to kind of give myself

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Speaker 1: a break. I kind of really burned myself out on

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Speaker 1: movement work after five years, and especially during the Trump administration,

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Speaker 1: it was just there was a lot. So it's it's

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Speaker 1: been great. My students are my favorite thing about teaching here,

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Speaker 1: like they like and one of the things I always

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Speaker 1: say is that, you know, law students come to school

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Speaker 1: wide eyed with a lot of hope and enthusiasm for

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Speaker 1: the law, and a lot of people once they leave

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Speaker 1: law school and actually packed us law become very jaded

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Speaker 1: and cynical and like it's hard. I fought it, but

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Speaker 1: I in very many ways, I've become very jaded and

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Speaker 1: cinaco about the law. And when I see like the

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Speaker 1: next generational lawyers and I get to work with them

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Speaker 1: on projects in cases and really see like how they

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Speaker 1: developed throughout the semester in terms of their legal writing

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Speaker 1: skills and everything else, like and just see like the

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Speaker 1: passionate enthusiasm they have for the for the work and

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Speaker 1: also just like the diverse backgrounds of the students that

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Speaker 1: I'm teaching. All of those things, like it just it

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Speaker 1: fills me with hope. And like this, you know right now,

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Speaker 1: like to recording, Like I've been doing final evaluations with students,

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Speaker 1: and this is like one of my favorite times because

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Speaker 1: it's it's really an opportunity not just for me to

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Speaker 1: help students improve, but like to help build them up

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Speaker 1: because I have a lot of students that come from

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Speaker 1: disadvantaged backgrounds that are not the typical you know, which

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Speaker 1: you think of what do you think of Harvard Law?

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Speaker 1: And they are rock stars. Um and as like someone

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Speaker 1: here who's like not typically represented, I like really realize

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Speaker 1: the power of visibility, right, Like just even being visible

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Speaker 1: here means like you know, students that come and tell

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Speaker 1: me things that like they probably can't tell to like

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Speaker 1: they're seventy something year old assist, white male professor, right

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Speaker 1: that just doesn't get it. Um. And so that is

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Speaker 1: just really huge, like that visibility. And I think also

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Speaker 1: like I take it to the next step, like I

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Speaker 1: have my my Sonia poster behind me or my Sounia portrait.

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Speaker 1: I also have uh you know, I just like Drew

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Speaker 1: a Parrican Fly, I've Judge Jackson and Marcia and Sylvia

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Speaker 1: Rivera and then of course bads with compos I call

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Speaker 1: it like my wall of power. Yes, I love it.

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Speaker 1: I would be so beyond stoked if I came to

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Speaker 1: college or came to law school and you were my

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Speaker 1: professor and I was in your office looking at your

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Speaker 1: wall of power. That's incredible, Yeah, because you don't see

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Speaker 1: these faces typically in the Law School, right, Like you

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Speaker 1: see a lot of older white folks, like you know,

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Speaker 1: famous alumni and stuff like that. It's rare that you

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Speaker 1: see like people of color and like in that way.

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Speaker 1: And it's like I could point that we have two

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice as one who's an alumni of the

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Speaker 1: school and compos who a lot of people don't know about.

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Speaker 1: But he was the Puerto Rican independence leader supposed to

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Speaker 1: be the valuatorian of the class of Harvard Law School

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Speaker 1: as an Afro Latin X And you know, Harvard couldn't

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Speaker 1: at that time like stand having a Afro Latin X

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Speaker 1: man be the valedictorians. So they've withheld his grades to

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Speaker 1: keep up, to delay him graduating, so he wouldn't be valedatorian.

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Speaker 1: But you know I have them here and I am

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Speaker 1: working to make sure he is more visible on this campus. Yes,

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Speaker 1: carrying that legacy. I love it. I guess one of

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Speaker 1: my one of the questions I'm so interested to get

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Speaker 1: into is I know it has been a hard time

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Speaker 1: for trans folks, and I think something about the Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk News, this was that much harder on a time

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Speaker 1: that's already been very difficult. So I want to like

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Speaker 1: acknowledge that, you know, what is Twitter? The experience of

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Speaker 1: being on Twitter on social media have been like for

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Speaker 1: you as a trans woman, Yeah, I mean it's been

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Speaker 1: it's been something else. Right. So I've been on Twitter

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Speaker 1: for like twelve ish years, but I didn't really use it.

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Speaker 1: I mostly just kind of had a Twitter to just

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Speaker 1: check every once in a while whatever it was trending,

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Speaker 1: and um when I started running for city council, ultimately

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Speaker 1: did not obviously, but when I you know, I started

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Speaker 1: heavily using Twitter as an organizing tool and as an

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Speaker 1: ability to connect with others in a political way, and

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Speaker 1: I really started building up. But following like two years ago,

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Speaker 1: I had like a hundred followers um on Twitter, and

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Speaker 1: now I'm like at sixteen thousands. So it's like it's

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Speaker 1: just like it's ballooned. And that experience changes. Right when

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Speaker 1: you're an anonymous account with a hundred people and you

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Speaker 1: just kind of interact like nobody really cares, right, But

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Speaker 1: the minute you start getting a following and you start

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Speaker 1: getting a lot of engagement and stuff like that, like

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Speaker 1: the experience changes. You really start getting singled out, um

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Speaker 1: uh for people that if you like, like for instance,

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Speaker 1: on Monday, Like I criticized Elon musk Uh buying Twitter

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Speaker 1: and called it like called in a question, Like a

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Speaker 1: lot of the things that he does are that come

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Speaker 1: off as very like white supremacist, like him flashing the

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Speaker 1: okay symbol on sn L, him having like a segregated

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Speaker 1: workplace at Tesla, his parents having wealth invested in an

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Speaker 1: emerald mind in apartheid era South Africa. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: always just skeptical of any wealthy white person from South Africa,

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Speaker 1: like the only like major flag, major red flag. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like yeah, you know that the family's wealth is built

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Speaker 1: on colonialism like explicitly, um but uh, you know, and

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Speaker 1: things like that, and then you know, just a history

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Speaker 1: of of transphobic jokes and statements on Twitter, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I think like calling it a question that and my god,

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Speaker 1: I got like hate mail on my personal working email,

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Speaker 1: which like that almost never happens, and like I had

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Speaker 1: to go private because like I was getting not just

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Speaker 1: bombarded because like I have my notifications filtered, so like

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Speaker 1: if they don't follow me, I don't I don't see it,

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Speaker 1: you know, so like people can go at me all

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Speaker 1: they want and do what at ratio whatever the hell

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Speaker 1: they can. I don't care, Like, I don't see it

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Speaker 1: that way. But what ends up happening is I do

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Speaker 1: have my d ms open, so I can usually tell

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Speaker 1: when something is going sideways when I start getting a

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Speaker 1: ton of actually hate dms um, and those get filtered

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Speaker 1: as well, right Like, um, So it's it's just like

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Speaker 1: message requests, so I don't even see them unless I

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Speaker 1: like specifically go like, it doesn't even send me a notification.

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Speaker 1: It just like it's just want to checking my messages,

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Speaker 1: so I might check them like once a day or

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Speaker 1: something like that. Um and yeah, and like flooded with

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Speaker 1: messages on on Monday, and it was just like a lot,

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Speaker 1: and it was overwhelming, and I was like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking this private. And the only other time I'm

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Speaker 1: I've gotten that dog piled was when I criticized Joe Rogan.

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Speaker 1: There's something about these like weight men that just like

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Speaker 1: drives others to just go to all these links to

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Speaker 1: defend them. I don't understand. They don't need to be defended.

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Speaker 1: They have Elon Musk is a richest man in the

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Speaker 1: world with million Twitter followers. Joe Rogan has the most

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Speaker 1: listen to podcasts in the world at like two million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Like he's gonna be fine. He doesn't need a personal

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Speaker 1: army to defend him. Yes, have you ever seen that

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Speaker 1: meme where it's um, It's like that Simpson's meme where

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Speaker 1: it's like um, Elon Musk, you know, valid criticism and

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Speaker 1: like internet weirdos diving in front of the bullet to

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Speaker 1: save him from any kind of valid criticism. I think

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan Elon Musk, they're two. There are two men

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Speaker 1: who really I feel like people must search on Twitter

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Speaker 1: for their names to be like, yeah, like someone criticizing

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Speaker 1: him not on my watch. And if you notice a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who start criticizing Elon Musk or even

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan, like what they'll do is they'll misspell his name,

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Speaker 1: like I've seen. I was like on my subsequent posts,

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Speaker 1: I was like using the name melon Husk because like

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Speaker 1: they would, but they literally that's what they do. Like

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Speaker 1: how like how much of a loser do you have

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Speaker 1: to be to sit there and search the name Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk so that when you see negative criticism you dog

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Speaker 1: pile that person and you attack them like it's just

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Speaker 1: it's it's just like ridiculous, like get a life, get

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Speaker 1: a job, do something. Definitely sounds like the behavior of

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Speaker 1: someone who calls themselves an advocate of free speech. So

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Speaker 1: for sure, let's say, quickbreak, there are no girls on

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Speaker 1: the internet is doing a live show on caveat in

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Speaker 1: near or city and virtually from wherever you're at. We'll

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Speaker 1: have amazing guests, a meet and greet, and much much more.

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Speaker 1: Go to tank dot com, slash live and get your

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Speaker 1: tickets and I cannot wait to see you there center back.

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Speaker 1: We've seen increasing attacks on LGBTQ folks using the label groomer,

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Speaker 1: according to research for Media Matters. On Twitter, the number

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Speaker 1: of tweets with groomer related language increased by over six

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Speaker 1: in April, with over eight hundred and seventy thousand tweets

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Speaker 1: and retweets compared to nearly fivety tweets in March. Now,

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Speaker 1: grooming is a serious thing. It's used to describe the

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Speaker 1: actions and adult takes to build a relationship with a

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Speaker 1: child that makes that child more vulnerable to sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: and today, both online and off, extremists and apply that

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Speaker 1: l g b t Q folks or those who affirm

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Speaker 1: l g b t Q youth are actually pedophiles who

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Speaker 1: present a dangerous threat to children. It's a resurgence of

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Speaker 1: a well worn tactic of extremists. In the seventies, anti

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Speaker 1: gay activist Anita Bryant ran the Save Our Children campaign

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Speaker 1: aimed at repealing a local Florida ordinance prohibiting discrimination on

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Speaker 1: the basis of sexual orientation, and a key component of

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Speaker 1: her campaign was suggesting that gay teachers were a threat

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Speaker 1: to the safety of kids. And it's not just French extremists.

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Speaker 1: Mainstream Republicans have passed legislation attacking marginalized identities, like laws

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Speaker 1: criminalizing trans youth or Florida's Don't Say Gay bill that

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Speaker 1: puts vague restrictions on talking about sexual orientation in classrooms.

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Speaker 1: Florida Governor Ronda Santiss Press Secretary Christina Pushall described the

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Speaker 1: legislation as quote the anti grooming bill, tweeting that if

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Speaker 1: you did not support that Don't Say Gay bill quote,

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Speaker 1: then you're probably a groomer or at least don't announce

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Speaker 1: the grooming of four to eight year old children. Honestly,

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Speaker 1: it is not difficult to see the influence of the

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Speaker 1: q and on conspiracy in her comments and it should

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Speaker 1: not be surprising to find that this moral panic has

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Speaker 1: accompanied a way of a violent in real life threats

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Speaker 1: against LGBTQ people. It's it's already been kind of toxic.

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Speaker 1: I think that there's definitely been a vibe shift since February,

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Speaker 1: UM that I've noticed, and it's been on like anything

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Speaker 1: I've ever seen, um, the kinds of attacks on LGBTQ people,

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Speaker 1: specifically labeling lgbt people as groomers like and pedophiles, like.

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Speaker 1: I never thought that would like happen in that way,

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Speaker 1: and it's just absolutely gross, Like it is one of

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Speaker 1: the grossest things I've ever seen. UM. And so we

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Speaker 1: saw in February, like lives of TikTok, James Lindsay, some

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Speaker 1: of these like right wing trolls, Jack Passovi and eventually

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Speaker 1: got all the way up, you know. And and then

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Speaker 1: what really changed was the Santiss Press Secretary Christina Pusha

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Speaker 1: labeling that don't Say Gay bill as an anti grooming bill, um.

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Speaker 1: And like that was the first time we had like

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Speaker 1: a government official put the im premature of like, you know,

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Speaker 1: this is a government message that like, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you opposed don't say gay, you're a groomer kind of thing,

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Speaker 1: and um, it was terrifying, like like I think for

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Speaker 1: for pretty much all the trans people I know on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: Like it's like blaring red siren, like this is getting bad,

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Speaker 1: Like this is going to lead to people getting killed.

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Speaker 1: And we've already seen someone walk into a barn Brooklyn

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Speaker 1: with kerosene and set it on a gay bar and

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Speaker 1: set it on fire. Just like two days ago, someone

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Speaker 1: through bricks through a Pride center in Burlington, Vermont. And

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Speaker 1: this comes about two weeks after um, I believe it

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Speaker 1: was her name is Feather Fern was was murdered in

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Speaker 1: in Vermont, like a trans woman. Um, and the person

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Speaker 1: tried to initiate like the trans planic defense, and so

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Speaker 1: like we've already seen that and like that that the

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Speaker 1: attacks on like this gay couple on an Amtrak train

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Speaker 1: in California being called pedophiles and child stealers because they

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Speaker 1: adopted two kids. Like it's just horrific stuff. And this

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Speaker 1: is directly as a result of the toxic online discourse

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Speaker 1: and because of this, like Twitter has generally tried to

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Speaker 1: do the right thing, but any time is specifically around

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Speaker 1: trans people, any time they try to make it better

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Speaker 1: for trans people, though, like right wing echosphere just goes

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Speaker 1: into overdrive like they just like it is, like they

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Speaker 1: feel like it's their constitutional right to go on private

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Speaker 1: companies websites to harass trans people. It's really not surprising

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Speaker 1: to me that Twitter has emerged as this new battleground

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Speaker 1: for the so called culture wars. Traditionally, marginalized people use

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Speaker 1: Twitter to carve out power and a voice for ourselves.

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Speaker 1: We built movements like me Too and Black Lives Matter

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Speaker 1: on Twitter, and I think the idea of marginalized people

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Speaker 1: building power on Twitter is incredibly threatening the people who

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Speaker 1: have traditionally had all the power. For instance, Elon Musk

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Speaker 1: said that he was inspired to buy Twitter after the

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Speaker 1: right wing parody site The Babylon b was suspended for

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Speaker 1: refusing to delete a transphobic tweet miss gendering Admiral Rachel Levine,

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Speaker 1: who was a trans woman and the Assistant Secretary for

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Speaker 1: Health for the U. S Department of Health and Human Services,

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Speaker 1: And like that's what we saw, Like we saw what

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Speaker 1: was reported right The Babylon be being suspended for its

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Speaker 1: joke about Dr Levine was supposedly one of the last

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Speaker 1: straws for Elon musk and so like they pushed the envelope.

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Speaker 1: They pushed this hatred. And then when a site tries

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Speaker 1: to step in and say like this is leading to violence,

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Speaker 1: this is causing harm, they you know, cry free speech

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Speaker 1: or whatnot. But what it really is is they want

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Speaker 1: the free freedom to bully right, Like, because if you

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Speaker 1: want to say, like I hate trans people, I don't

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Speaker 1: feeleve they should exist, you can say that to the

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Speaker 1: cows come home, right, Like, you could just go out

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Speaker 1: a street corner and yell at that is free speech.

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Speaker 1: The government cannot stop you from saying that. You can

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Speaker 1: scream it out a corner. You can write manifestos, you

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Speaker 1: can like do what, write a novel how much you

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Speaker 1: hate trans people, knock yourself out right. But a social

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Speaker 1: media company is different. They are not under those obligations,

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Speaker 1: and people fundamentally do not understand that the problem is

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Speaker 1: is like, if you make a social media company hostile

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Speaker 1: to people, you're not going to stay around very long.

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Speaker 1: Like we've seen what sites with no moderation are like

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Speaker 1: four chan, h h chan, a cone um, you know

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Speaker 1: all these sites like they don't have advertisers, no, Like

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Speaker 1: typical person goes on there, because it is filled with

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Speaker 1: racial slurs, anti Semitic slurs, homophobic slurs, like just the

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Speaker 1: worst of the worst. Like it is literally filled with

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Speaker 1: actual Nazis, Like posting Nazi means so like we know

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Speaker 1: what that looks like. And so at some end, like

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Speaker 1: Twitter has to engage in moderation and it really what

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Speaker 1: it is is like they're trying to use trans people

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Speaker 1: as a ledge to base equally destroy a social media

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Speaker 1: site for daring to protect chance people. The way that

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Speaker 1: I see it is that you know, in the last five,

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Speaker 1: ten years or whatever, social media platforms, I would say

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Speaker 1: all of them, but really Twitter is like a special

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Speaker 1: platform people who have been traditionally marginalized have been able

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Speaker 1: to you know, have a little bit of a more

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Speaker 1: of a voice and have a little bit more power

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Speaker 1: that institutionally we didn't really get to have. And I

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Speaker 1: think that that's maybe one of the reasons why we're

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Speaker 1: seeing this Twitter be this big battlefield right now, because

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Speaker 1: I think people who are threatened by that, people who

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Speaker 1: are threatened when they see, you know, people who have

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Speaker 1: traditionally had a harder time making their voices heard, get

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Speaker 1: those platforms, get those voices, and even if even if

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Speaker 1: a platform like Twitter does the bare minimum to make

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Speaker 1: their platform a little bit hospitable to these voices, that

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Speaker 1: feels very threatening or threatened. Yeah, that feels very threatening,

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Speaker 1: and therefore they have to sort of go out of

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Speaker 1: their way to remind folks know this platform needs to

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Speaker 1: be hostile toward people who are traditionally marginalized. I want

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Speaker 1: that status quo back where I can say whatever and

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Speaker 1: they can't say anything right right, um, And like it's

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Speaker 1: like the classics saying right when you're all you're accustomed

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Speaker 1: to is privilege. Equality feels like oppression. Um, and that's

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Speaker 1: very much what it is. Lives of TikTok it's a

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Speaker 1: Twitter account run by shier Rycheck with over one point

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Speaker 1: two million followers that basically exist to spread lies and

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Speaker 1: fear about teachers grooming children. The account is called public

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Speaker 1: Schools quote government run indoctrination camps for the LGBTQ, spread

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Speaker 1: outlandish lies about lgbt Q youth and teachers, also singling

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Speaker 1: them out for harassment and abuse. It's also become an

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Speaker 1: influential piece of right wing online infrastructure. Florida Governor Rohnda

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Speaker 1: Santiss Press Secretary Christina Pushall said the account truly opened

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Speaker 1: her eyes on the state of LGBTQ education in schools.

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Speaker 1: I think one of the most illustrative issues of this

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Speaker 1: was TikTok. Like what it is is it's it's all

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Speaker 1: about fundamentally power and its power to make sure that

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Speaker 1: the in group maintains power and society and the out

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Speaker 1: group is minimized. And in this case, the the in

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Speaker 1: group is mostly white conservatives, mostly white supremacists and others

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Speaker 1: and fascists, um. And then what you have is the

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Speaker 1: out group is like queer LGBTQ people, people of color, women,

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Speaker 1: others and like that. They want to marginalize. And so

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Speaker 1: what ends up happening is is like you have TikTok, right,

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Speaker 1: So like TikTok or not TikTok lives of TikTok is

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Speaker 1: specifically retweeting videos of LGBTQ teachers that likely have like

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Speaker 1: maybe a hundred or thousand views on TikTok. This is

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Speaker 1: these are relatively obscure people that are just posting their

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Speaker 1: thoughts online. They wriped those videos and the post online

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Speaker 1: with very leading titles some of them like I've watched

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Speaker 1: the videos. It's just like a teacher talking about the

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Speaker 1: students asking them who their husband is, and they came

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Speaker 1: out to the class and they were like, if anyone

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Speaker 1: comes out, and if any gay teacher comes out, they

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Speaker 1: should be fired on the spot. Like that's literally what

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Speaker 1: lives of TikTok said. And so then they come out

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Speaker 1: and they're like, you know, they're just exposing liberals for

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Speaker 1: what they say, and they're just showing up and you know,

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Speaker 1: that's what they do. And I'm like, meanwhile, like they're

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Speaker 1: just sending a torrent of harassment towards these people that

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Speaker 1: are relatively anonymous, and additionally towards school districts. They're creating

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Speaker 1: a whole panic by like pushing this groomer libel um

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Speaker 1: and then essentially, you know, they want the power to

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Speaker 1: do that. And then the minute that anybody steps up

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Speaker 1: and says, yeah, this is who that person is, shy

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Speaker 1: a ray check, Like they forgot to use a pseudonym

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Speaker 1: when they registered their domain name and now that's public information.

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Speaker 1: Like they went into overdrive to attack Taylor Lawrenz at

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Speaker 1: the Washington Post, who didn't even expose it, by the

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Speaker 1: way Internet researchers exposed it. And they were so upset

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Speaker 1: that this person was like docked or you know, quote

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Speaker 1: unquote or that they were exposed, and that like it

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Speaker 1: was so vicious and she's exposed her harassment, all this stuff,

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Speaker 1: and it's like it's literally what she does. She said

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Speaker 1: she sends harassment and had like not her directly, but

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Speaker 1: it's like what's called stochastic terrorism, right, she knows that

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Speaker 1: by putting somebody on blast on her Twitter, what will happen?

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Speaker 1: And the fact that she was scared of people knowing

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Speaker 1: who she was, and the fact that they acted like

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Speaker 1: it was some big thing to expose that like like

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Speaker 1: grow up, grow up, Like you have an account with

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Speaker 1: a million followers. Now you are getting interviewed by Tucker

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Speaker 1: Carlson and national media and you have an expectation of privacy.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry you do not um and you know, and again,

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Speaker 1: don't use your actual name to register a domain a

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Speaker 1: domain like just don't do anything. So but but again,

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Speaker 1: like going back to the dynamic, like this is about

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Speaker 1: preserving power, right, Like that's what lives with TikTok does, right.

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Speaker 1: It creates a chilling effect. How many queer or lgbt

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Speaker 1: Q teachers on TikTok are not going to talk on

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Speaker 1: TikTok or post a video for fear that they will

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Speaker 1: be their content ripped and then there will be fired,

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Speaker 1: or have a mob at a school board meeting talking

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Speaker 1: about them, to asking for them to be fired. Teachers,

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Speaker 1: making our our parents making accusations against them, like all

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Speaker 1: these things just for existing as a queer person, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it is a moral panic, that is what it

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Speaker 1: was going on right now. I'm so good that you

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Speaker 1: brought this up because this is something that I talked

428
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:59,520
Speaker 1: about a lot on the show, and this in general.

429
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,720
Speaker 1: So Elon Musk and people like him, they love talking

430
00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 1: about free speech, and they from the way they talk,

431
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: it would seem as though the people who are likely

432
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:10,919
Speaker 1: facing consequence for the things they say are white, conservative

433
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 1: or libertarian men who just like want to say slurs

434
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: or whatever. But the reality is that it's marginalized people

435
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: who are much more likely to face consequences for the

436
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 1: things they say, especially online. And so you know, I

437
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 1: guess my question is like, how can we and I

438
00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 1: think that just completely gets missed whenever we're happy in

439
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: conversation about speech and who who you know, free speech

440
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 1: for who? How can we change that conversation change that

441
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: focus so that it is about the reality that it's

442
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,600
Speaker 1: queer folks, transpokes, sex workers, activists who are either pushed

443
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,639
Speaker 1: out of spaces or silenced or you know, d platforms

444
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: for what they say, Like like why do you think

445
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 1: that that when we talked, but when people who seem

446
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: so obsessed with talking about speech, why do you feel

447
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 1: like those the marginalized people who we know are the

448
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,960
Speaker 1: people who are facing consequences for what they say, like

449
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: like why do they get are they able to get

450
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:05,320
Speaker 1: left out so often? Yeah, it's mainly because you know,

451
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 1: it's again it's it's insidious what these people do. Right.

452
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 1: So it again boils down to the difference between equality

453
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,200
Speaker 1: and equity. Right, So if everyone has access on Twitter,

454
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: that's equality. So everyone so everyone's equal here on on

455
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,920
Speaker 1: the site, But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's equity, right, Like,

456
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,080
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of things that go into a social

457
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 1: media site, like even having time to be able to

458
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: post on Twitter, that's a that's a privilege because a

459
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,080
Speaker 1: lot of people do not, Like there are people working

460
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: two jobs, three jobs, like doing stuff like they don't

461
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 1: have time to pay a touch on Twitter. They're raising

462
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: kids like to doing all this stuff, so like that already,

463
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 1: like you're already creating all these things. But you know

464
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: that one of the things I always love to point

465
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: out with the difference between equity and quality is like,

466
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,159
Speaker 1: let's say you have three children that were different ages

467
00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: and sizes. One is like three ft, one is four foot,

468
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: and one is five ft and there is a four

469
00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: foot fence covering while they're trying to watch a baseball game. Well,

470
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: you could say, I'm going to give them all one

471
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: of a one foot like block for them to stand on.

472
00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:07,760
Speaker 1: The third child is still not going to be able

473
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 1: to see because but that's equality, right. They all got

474
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 1: the same boost, and the first kid, who didn't even

475
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: need it in the first place, is now even higher

476
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: up for a better view. But what equity is is

477
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,040
Speaker 1: understanding the nature of the situation and giving that first

478
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: kid a two foot block, the middle kid of footblock

479
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,760
Speaker 1: and then just leaving it and they're there. You know,

480
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 1: that is equity, right, And so understanding that and so

481
00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:32,199
Speaker 1: there's an idea here that we you know, we've been

482
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: been discussing within the clinic, you know, within our our

483
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: course here and our seminars like talking about algorithmic reparations,

484
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: like the designs of these sites, because people act like

485
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: that these things are designed neutrally, they're not. There's always

486
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: conscious bias that goes into the design of these websites,

487
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 1: and so if you're not actively countering it, you are

488
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 1: permitting it um And so that's one of the aspects

489
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: of the design of sites like Twitter that needs to

490
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 1: be accounted for. And I think Twitter hasn't necessarily gone

491
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: that way. They're just trying to plug holes in everything

492
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 1: that shows up, right, But they're at least attempting. I

493
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,440
Speaker 1: think they have like like they're trying so that that

494
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:22,200
Speaker 1: concept of equity, right, that's what they're demonizing. They're demonizing diversity, equity, inclusion.

495
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,840
Speaker 1: They're acting like it's this horrible thing. They're banning, you know,

496
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: any talk about critical race theory, which like I'm like,

497
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 1: if you want to take critical racory, you have to

498
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,120
Speaker 1: like a two all or three all here at Harvard

499
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: Law School, Like we're not teaching it to kindergarteners. Like

500
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: if that is not what's happening, but that doesn't matter, right,

501
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 1: Like all they have to do is scream it and

502
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: that's all of a sudden, that's reality. And like, what

503
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,840
Speaker 1: is even more disturbing beyond the critical race theory is

504
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: like just the whole sale denial of this country's history.

505
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: It's it's all to protect white innocence, right at the

506
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: end of the day, Like that's what it's about. It's

507
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:18,719
Speaker 1: protecting white Its more, after a quick break, let's get

508
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: right back into it, just in case you needed any

509
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,680
Speaker 1: more proof that we're in the middle of a full

510
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: blown moral panic. Last month, Florida's education department accused publishers

511
00:29:29,960 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 1: of trying to indoctrinate kids with math textbooks by trying

512
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: to sneak in lessons grounded in emotional and social learning,

513
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: which is basically a classroom methodology that helps kids understand

514
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: their emotions around subjects and demonstrate empathy for others. For example,

515
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: if a math book said that sometimes math problems can

516
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: look scary, or if a book said it's good to

517
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: work together to solve problems, those would be examples of

518
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: social and emotional learning. The Washington Post reports that Florida's

519
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: Education department said that it rejected for books the most

520
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: ever in Florida's history, even though at least twenty four

521
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: of those books scored high marks from the official state

522
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: reviewers for conforming to Florida's standards, but were rejected anyway.

523
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: And this crackdown happens all will. People like University of

524
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: Virginia recent grad Emma camp who published a recent New

525
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: York Times op ed about how conservative speech is being

526
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,600
Speaker 1: suppressed on college campuses, are uplifted as the face of

527
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:24,960
Speaker 1: attacks on free speech. What's more demious is like this

528
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 1: attack on emotional and social learning, Like this is what

529
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: we saw in Florida with like forty books math books

530
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 1: banned for the crime of putting it's sometimes better to

531
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: learn together, listen to other people, hear what they have

532
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: to say. And it's like, are you trying to raise

533
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: a country of sociopaths? Like the I mean, what is

534
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 1: the goal of that? Like literally these people would like

535
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: attack Mr Rogers today. Yeah. I saw one of my

536
00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: favorite books growing up was Babies Everywhere. And it's like

537
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: it's like essentially a picture book about how there's babies everywhere,

538
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:07,080
Speaker 1: and it was banned in some state I can't remember where.

539
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: And the offending the only like offending image I use

540
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 1: that in scare quotes was one of the babies. Behind

541
00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: the baby was two men and one of the men

542
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 1: has his hand on the other shoulder. And so it's

543
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,720
Speaker 1: like I was reading this interview with the author and

544
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 1: she was like, we don't explicitly say that they're married

545
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 1: or that they have this child. It's like they could

546
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: be brothers, they could be friends. Like we don't even

547
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: say anything, but under these under in this new climate,

548
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:37,280
Speaker 1: just this suggestion like oh, two men standing next to

549
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: each other. No, can't have that in schools. Can't have

550
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 1: anybody seeing that. Yeah, I mean that that's that's part

551
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,479
Speaker 1: of it, right, Like it's erasing any sense of queerness.

552
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: And this is what is frustrating about mainstream coverage around

553
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 1: this whole debate, right, Like we constantly see OpEd after

554
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: opened about I don't feel like I can say what

555
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 1: I want to saying classrooms and like what they mean

556
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 1: in like college classrooms or or like college courses or

557
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: college campuses. Like I feel like if I say something,

558
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 1: my my uh classmates might ostracize me. And I'm like, okay,

559
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:21,480
Speaker 1: that's real life. Like I'm sorry, that's a new concept.

560
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: You say something unpopular and people will not like it.

561
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 1: I mean, like you can I can't go into my

562
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: office and be like, all y'all smell like ship without

563
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 1: my co workers getting up that what's the deal. It's like, yeah,

564
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 1: it's called It's always been that way. You there are

565
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: consequences of the things that you say. People can astrize

566
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: you when they don't like we have to say. And

567
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: I guess I feel like in comparison to the way

568
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: that we're seeing this very clear crackdown on marginalized voices,

569
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 1: it just seems so like the whose stories get amplified

570
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: of you know, quote unquote having their free speech crackdown on,

571
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 1: where it's like, oh my college classroom when I said

572
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 1: something they didn't like it, compared to you know, people

573
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: being five, it's like it's it's it's just really wild

574
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: to be in the mainstream coverage. Who gets amplified and

575
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: who doesn't. Yeah, Like in that that that story that

576
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: was in the New York Times recently, and like the

577
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 1: woman who wrote it like had already just graduated, and

578
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: I think it was working for Reason magazine and like

579
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: was being pushed up by Fire and which is like

580
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: a big or like libertarian orc um and like has

581
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: like these powerful people behind her, like performing and she's like,

582
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 1: she went to University of Virginia. I just like already

583
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: like one of the top schools in the country, and

584
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 1: so she's like went to a top school, is working

585
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: on a national media and it's like I can't say

586
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: what I want to say in the college classroom. Meanwhile,

587
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: the most banned books in the country are literally is

588
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 1: like literally, um, anything dealing with LGBTQ people. I mean

589
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: we're literally talking about like books that feature like two penguins,

590
00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: Like it's it's insane, like and there are like entire

591
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: like there are school boards like saying that books should

592
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:08,880
Speaker 1: be burned. Like I'm sorry, Like on what way is

593
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: any of this like on an equal plane? Like that

594
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,799
Speaker 1: is a much greater threat because, like you know, as

595
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: the cliche goes, like where they burned books, they will

596
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 1: burn people. Like that is far scarier because that is

597
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: much more systemic, and that is using the levels of

598
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: government to achieve it. It's not a private company deciding

599
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 1: who is coming into their little social media site and

600
00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: saying stuff like that. Is that they're using the government

601
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 1: and so like that that is on that's explicitly what

602
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: the First Amendment was to protect the First Amendment is

603
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: to protect us against the government censoring speech. So we

604
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: have governments censoring speech, banning books, and like barely a

605
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: pip and like all of a sudden, we have like

606
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 1: one white girl on a college campus who feels like

607
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: she can't say something, and like that's on the front

608
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: page of the New York Times, Like I'm sorry, Like

609
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: I'm you lost me. I guess you know, do you

610
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 1: see this kind of climate that we're in that is

611
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 1: so hostile to or we're seeing such a backlash against

612
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: marginalized voices? Do that? You know, we know brew online

613
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,400
Speaker 1: and brew on social media says, do you see this

614
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: as a direct threat to democracy? Yeah, I absolutely do.

615
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: We I mean we've seen what social media can do

616
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: when it's unchecked. Literally all we have to do is

617
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: like ay sixteen, I mean I remember being in the

618
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,399
Speaker 1: middle of it on Reddit. Like Reddit was a heavy

619
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: site for disinformation in the twenty sixteen campaign, and like

620
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: it was I felt like I was losing my mind,

621
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 1: like and like reading similar stories of people in Ukraine

622
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,680
Speaker 1: and twenty four teen, like that's what it feels like

623
00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: when you're subjected to that kind of disinformation, because like

624
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,600
Speaker 1: you will talk to people in real life and like

625
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: nobody talks that way or believes anything, like uh, and

626
00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: like there's one thing to be said about social media

627
00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: bubbles and stuff like that, but it's a whole another one.

628
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,239
Speaker 1: It's like this just like completely out of left field

629
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: stuff and just the kind of vitriol that gets, you know,

630
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: shared online, and like we've seen where that leads right,

631
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: Like Trump was most definitely like it's probably not the

632
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,840
Speaker 1: only factor, Like there's a million things that went into it,

633
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: but a huge reason why Trump was elected is because

634
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:29,080
Speaker 1: of disinformation on Facebook, on Twitter, on Reddit, on all

635
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: these sites. And so for people to think that this

636
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have like a potential threat to democracy, it has

637
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: the ability to influence democracy. Like a conspiracy theory on

638
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: Twitter got a man to go with a h an

639
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: assault rifle to a pizza shop because of conspiracy theories around,

640
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,760
Speaker 1: like like the whole pizza Gate conspiracy. There are people

641
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: who believe that Wayfair is shipping children in furniture, like

642
00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: if you and like was the the I feel like

643
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: this one's always misquoted, but the Voltaire Um quote, it's

644
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,919
Speaker 1: like if you can get people to believe in absurdities,

645
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: you can get them to commit atrocities and like that

646
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 1: that's exactly the kind of thing that I think about,

647
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: because like if you start labeling like trans people as

648
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: this like groomer cult that are going after children and

649
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: damaging their bodies quote unquote and doing all these things,

650
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: and like all of this, like and just the language

651
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: you're using, it is a matter of time. It is

652
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: not an if. It is a when someone is going

653
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: to take matters into their own hands and they're either

654
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,799
Speaker 1: going to go shoot up a gay bar or they're

655
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: gonna bomb a gender clinic. I mean, we've seen this

656
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: is the kind of stuff that's going on around Like

657
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: the organizing around gender clinics is the same kind of

658
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: stuff that was happening in the nineties around apportion clinics,

659
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 1: and were like, we've seen what happens around that, and

660
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: so like this kind amped up rhetoric, it's it's stochastic terrorism.

661
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 1: Like you can't pinpoint any violent act to anything said online,

662
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,720
Speaker 1: but the overall raising of the temperature is what allowed

663
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: it to happen in the first place. Yeah, I feel

664
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: the exact same way. Um, I live in d C,

665
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: so I remember very clearly when that happened at comment

666
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: ping Pong the pizza place here in d C. Like

667
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: like but and I think I was even before we

668
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:27,359
Speaker 1: just got on the call, just now I was reading that. Um,

669
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: I think the FBI arrested a man who was threatening

670
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: to attack Miriam Webster the Dictionary because he did not

671
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: agree with the way that they were defining man and woman. Um.

672
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: And yeah, I just I just feel like we've come

673
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: to this place where the temperature has been raised so much,

674
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: and I see that as a direct result of things

675
00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: happening on social media, of social media algorithms really you know,

676
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: prioritizing the most extreme content, the the most you know,

677
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: inflammatory rhetoric, and just yeah, I guess I really I

678
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: I I hadn't intended for this interview to sounds so alarmist.

679
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:08,200
Speaker 1: It's it is, I feel it, so, you know, it's

680
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: just a lot. I don't I don't like, I don't

681
00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: feel good about when I asked, you know, where does

682
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: this end? I don't really like imagining what the answer

683
00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: to that question is, Like where does this end? I

684
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: don't know, Probably nowhere good, That's what I'm reading. Oh

685
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: my god, you're so you're just like really doing the scrolling,

686
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: is what I? UM, so no I held at the

687
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 1: book gaberlin Um, which I talked about like pre Weimar

688
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: but also mostly Weimar Republic era Germany, and how you know,

689
00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: it was a haven for LGBTQ people. Um had like

690
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: the first the first surgery gener affirming surgeries that had

691
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: some of the first like first administrations of hormones um,

692
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 1: the first serious attempt at a study of queer and

693
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: trans people, of lesbians and gays and others like it,

694
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,440
Speaker 1: just like by Magnus Hirschfeld, like all those things. And

695
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: there was just kind of this like golden era where

696
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 1: it was like that never really existed in that way

697
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: in the West of tolerance right in Berlin, and it

698
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: all just came crashing down so quickly in but like

699
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: if you've been paying attention, like it wasn't a surprise,

700
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people got out like starting in

701
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: the late twenties and early thirties, like they saw what

702
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: was happening. And so it's like I think people just

703
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: think that like these things come out of nowhere, and

704
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: like you don't you know. And I always hate, like

705
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: I said, Godwin's Law, like bring up the Nazis and

706
00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: stuff like that, because that that that's kind of we have.

707
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: We just have so much media, so that's like it's

708
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: made easier to relate to. But I think like if

709
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: you you don't need to go far, you can go

710
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: to contemporary examples. You have Hungary and Poland. Hungary has

711
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: banned the existence of trans people. They've banned all legal

712
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: recognition of trans people in the country. They have made

713
00:40:56,239 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: past gay propaganda laws, which the press gre Terry for

714
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,320
Speaker 1: Ron de Santis and Florida admitted now that it was

715
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: based on the band in Hungary. Like so they're getting

716
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,280
Speaker 1: these ideas from these like far right, authoritarian, illiberal countries,

717
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: and like Russia just dissolved the biggest LGBT rights or

718
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: in the country and they've passed a gay propaganda lot.

719
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: Like they see that and they see that as a model,

720
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 1: Like that is their goal, that is their inspiration um

721
00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:32,400
Speaker 1: And that's terrifying because like that's exactly the same kind

722
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,399
Speaker 1: of stuff, like like like queer people right now are

723
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: like that Canary in the coal mind. And I would argue,

724
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 1: like before that, it was it's very much been immigrants,

725
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 1: Like having been in an immigration attorney for three years,

726
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: the kinds of stuff that people would say about immigrants

727
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: the kinds of policies we have here in the United States, like,

728
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 1: like are the conditions that we hold immigrants in detention

729
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: and the rights that they have, like would violate the

730
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: genuine convention, Like is atrocious what we do. It is

731
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: a human rights like violation and crime for what we

732
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: do around immigrants. And like we saw the rhetic rhetoric

733
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 1: with Trump, right, and then now it's it's LGBTQ people,

734
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 1: and we already start to see this, this kind of

735
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: massive reactionary backlash to the George Floyd protests, the Black

736
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,600
Speaker 1: Lives Matter protests, and like it's it's only a matter

737
00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 1: of time, like this is going to get worse. And

738
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: it always reminds me of that poem. It's like, you know,

739
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: and I posted this and it went viral, and and

740
00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:31,800
Speaker 1: you know, some people like we're like, well you was

741
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: this group or is acrem And I'm like, that's not

742
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:35,959
Speaker 1: the point. There's not point of being a first group.

743
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 1: That's the point that like if you don't stand out

744
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 1: for a marginalized group, like it's it's not going to stop.

745
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: And so I posted the you know, the famous poem.

746
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: It's like first they came for trans people, and I

747
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:51,160
Speaker 1: did nothing because I'm not trans. That they came forward

748
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: the lesbians and gays, and I did nothing because I'm

749
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: not lesbian gay, And I was like, we are here right,

750
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: like especially after this like groomer rhetoric, and it was

751
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: just like it was mind blowing to me to see

752
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: conservative gay men freak out and like, oh, this has

753
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,440
Speaker 1: gone too far, Like like Andrew Sullivan was like apoplectic

754
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 1: about the groomer labor being applied to him. Is happy

755
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: to talk, happy for that label to be applied to

756
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: trans people, but the minute I got applied to him

757
00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 1: was like whoa, wow, this has gone too far. And

758
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 1: it's like where did you think this was going? Like

759
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: did you think that they could just delineate between trans

760
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 1: people and queer people like that? They can't, like they're

761
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,359
Speaker 1: all the same. They think we're all degenerates. They think

762
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:34,640
Speaker 1: we're all like need to be wiped from this planet

763
00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: like that. It's exterminationist. They're not going to make some

764
00:43:38,320 --> 00:43:40,920
Speaker 1: fine distinction for the good ones and be like oh no, no,

765
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: he's okay, No, I'm not gonna happen. Well, you know

766
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: I always end my interviews with a question, are you hopeful.

767
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: I guess I feel I feel like I mean, I'll

768
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 1: ask it. Does it sound like you are aren't when

769
00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: you look at the state of things today? Are you hopeful?

770
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,000
Speaker 1: I posted about this on my Twitter the other day.

771
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:07,160
Speaker 1: I am a pessimist, Like I am a pessimist. I

772
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:12,040
Speaker 1: I love the quote from Uh, I'm a huge marvel

773
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:14,440
Speaker 1: nerd Like I love the m c U. I've watched it.

774
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: I just completed a whole rewatch of the m c

775
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 1: U for the fifth time. Um. But there's like a

776
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: Zamdais character mj and in Spiderman, and she's talking likeause,

777
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: She's like, UM, you know, I always expect disappointment, so

778
00:44:27,920 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 1: that way, you know, if if it happens, then you know,

779
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 1: I won't be disappointed. Um. And that's the kind of

780
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:35,800
Speaker 1: attitude I have, which I feel like a lot of

781
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 1: people like that that doesn't work for them, and that's fine,

782
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: Like some people need to be optimistic. Nothing wrong that

783
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: my The way I function in the way that I

784
00:44:43,040 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 1: cope is pessimism because if I'm wrong, which I always

785
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: hope i am, things worked out much better than I anticipated.

786
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: And so that's always kind of served me well. And

787
00:44:53,640 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: so like for me, Like I see this going down

788
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,160
Speaker 1: a very dark path and I don't think there's anything changing.

789
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 1: It's and it's only accelerating and getting worse. And like

790
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: I fully believe, like like by November early, like I

791
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: think we'll see like basically collapse of democracy in the

792
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: United States and things can go very south, very quickly. Um.

793
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 1: And so I've been starting to prepare. I'm getting my

794
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: passport ready, and I'm starting to save up a ton

795
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 1: of money and like getting ready to like, yeah, hey, Europe,

796
00:45:26,080 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 1: sound isn't good around this time of year, and like

797
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: you know what, I know, there's not an option for everyone.

798
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,640
Speaker 1: It really isn't. Like a lot of people can't just immigrate.

799
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: A lot of people can't get passports, a lot of

800
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 1: people can't get the money to even fly right, So

801
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 1: like that's a privilege in amo itself. But like we've

802
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: got time if you can, like you know, save money,

803
00:45:45,920 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: like all those things. I feel like I'm being very

804
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: alarmoust and like negative. But hey, if it doesn't, if

805
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: everything turns out fine and I'm catastrophically wrong, which I

806
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: hope I am. Well, now I've got my passport and

807
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: I got a ton of money, and I can go

808
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,680
Speaker 1: on vacation. There you go. That's a that's a like,

809
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 1: you know, a little silver lining on this ship sandwich.

810
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: That is our democracy and our country. Oh, I mean,

811
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,879
Speaker 1: it's it's bad. I used to I used to joke

812
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:21,360
Speaker 1: years ago, back when I thought it was impossible. So

813
00:46:21,680 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 1: so my organizing background is in the reproductive rights movement,

814
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: and I used to joke years ago that like, oh,

815
00:46:28,280 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: if Roe ever falls, I hope I'm i'm I will

816
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: be reading about it from the newspaper in a different country.

817
00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:35,680
Speaker 1: And now it seems like, oh, well, I'm still here

818
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: in the United States and it seems like it's gonna happen.

819
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 1: So I guess that didn't work out for me. So well, yeah,

820
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 1: I mean like ask you know l g pt Q Russians,

821
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: right Like I used to have some friends who who

822
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,800
Speaker 1: were from Russia, and it was like, when is it

823
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: gonna get too bad to go back, right like for

824
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: them like to to even visit their family, and uh,

825
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: you know, now obviously things have on to a point

826
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 1: where it's like not not really okay, but for a

827
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:05,800
Speaker 1: faus f with you people, like was it in thirteen

828
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:07,920
Speaker 1: In the past, the gay Propaganda Law was it like

829
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: seventeen when Czech Tea started a concentration cancer gay men,

830
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: Like is it now that they start the words so

831
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: like there's always a question of like why is the

832
00:47:16,880 --> 00:47:18,239
Speaker 1: right timing? And I don't think there really is. Like

833
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: if you left Berlin in nineteen twenty nine, and you'd

834
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 1: be fine. If you left in nineteen thirty two, you'd

835
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,399
Speaker 1: be fine. If you even left in nineteen thirty three,

836
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:30,240
Speaker 1: you'd likely be okay. If you waited until nineteen thirty

837
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,479
Speaker 1: five or even lanteen thirty nine, you are not gonna

838
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: be okay, right Like, And so it's like learning our

839
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: history so that you can see the signs and knowing, okay,

840
00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: this is my red line, like I need to get

841
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,680
Speaker 1: out of here, or having an exit plan because things

842
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: can also move quickly. I feel that like knowing your

843
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: history and knowing history is empowering. I'm I mean, I'm

844
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: glad that we have folks like you in our institutions

845
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: who are helping you know, the next generation to really

846
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:05,240
Speaker 1: have that power to be empowered by our collective shared history.

847
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 1: Try as conservatives might to make that impossible to study

848
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: and know and learn from. Yep, exactly where can folks,

849
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: keep up with all of the incredible work that I

850
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,919
Speaker 1: know that you are up to. Yeah, you can find

851
00:48:19,960 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 1: me all. My social media handles are Squeer Underscore so

852
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: e s q u e er. It is a portmanteau

853
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: of squire and queer. Again. You can find me an

854
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 1: s Square Underscore on Twitter, Instagram. Um, and you can

855
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 1: catch my podcast Queering the Law. Um. We typically released

856
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:42,160
Speaker 1: weekly on Monday's. Um you can find out basically anywhere

857
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: podcasts are issued. UM and yeah, thank you so much

858
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: for having me. Is there anything that I did not

859
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: ask that you want to make sure it gets included? Um? Yeah,

860
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: please please donate to the Trevor Project. There is going

861
00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:01,400
Speaker 1: to be a massive smear camp pain against the Trevor

862
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,360
Speaker 1: Project this week or this upcoming week. UM, this is

863
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:09,080
Speaker 1: how low they've stooped. They're attacking a suicide hotline. UM,

864
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: it's it's fucking sick like, That's all I'm gonna say.

865
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 1: So please if you can ten it's life saving work.

866
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,239
Speaker 1: Our youth are bearing the bront of this um and

867
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:22,719
Speaker 1: they need to help and support. So please if we

868
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: can donate to the Trevor Project. So I try really

869
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: hard not to get too negative on this podcast, and

870
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,840
Speaker 1: it's been a little bit difficult lately if you're listening

871
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 1: in the United States, where I'm based, It's been difficult

872
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,359
Speaker 1: to ignore what feels like a coordinated attack on marginalized

873
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:43,759
Speaker 1: people in the United States, from attacks on l g

874
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: B t Q youth and educators to attacks on abortion access.

875
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,760
Speaker 1: We are witnessing an anti democratic rollback of our rights.

876
00:49:51,960 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 1: On Saturday, May fourteen, in cities across the country will

877
00:49:55,640 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: be mobilizing to demand protection of abortion access. I'll be

878
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: there in these see so if you see me, please

879
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: say hello, and you can go to tangodi dot com

880
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: slash rally to find an event happening in your city. Now.

881
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 1: I know it is a hard time. I know it's

882
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: so easy to check out and disengage. I feel tempted

883
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 1: to myself sometimes, but I also know that when we

884
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 1: come together, we are powerful, and I believe in us.

885
00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:25,960
Speaker 1: I hope to see you there. If you're looking for

886
00:50:26,000 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 1: ways to support the show, check out our March store

887
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: at tangodi dot com slash store. Got a story about

888
00:50:32,080 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 1: an interesting thing in tech, or just want to say hi,

889
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: You can reach us at Hello at tangodi dot com.

890
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,280
Speaker 1: You can also find transcripts for today's episode at tangodi

891
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: dot com. There Are No Girls on the Internet was

892
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 1: created by me Bridget Toad. It's a production of I

893
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: Heeart Radio and Unboss Creative edited by Joey Pat Jonathan

894
00:50:47,960 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 1: Strictland as our executive producer. Terry Harrison is our producer

895
00:50:51,000 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amata was our contributing producer. I'm

896
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,600
Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Toad. If you want to help us

897
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: grow right and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more

898
00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: pod cast from iHeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app,

899
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. H m

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00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 1: hm