WEBVTT - #064 Jason Flom with Calvin Johnson

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<v Speaker 1>I've never been in trouble in my life. I didn't

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<v Speaker 1>even have a parking ticket, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>I was brought up with cops are the good guys.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know what was going to happen, but I

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<v Speaker 2>do know that everything was stacked against me.

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<v Speaker 1>Everything like everything.

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<v Speaker 3>This isn't supposed to happen this way. I'm innocent. I

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<v Speaker 3>know I'm innocent. I know I had nothing to do

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<v Speaker 3>with this. How is this possible?

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<v Speaker 4>I grew up trusting systems. I've grew up believing that

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<v Speaker 4>every human being should do the right thing. And that's why,

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<v Speaker 4>even though I knew I was dealing with four other people,

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<v Speaker 4>I wasn't going to break anyone to get me out

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<v Speaker 4>of prison because I wouldn't live with the fact that

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<v Speaker 4>I break my way out of my wife's death.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not innocent, too proven guilty. I'm guilty until I

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<v Speaker 1>prove my innocence. And that's absolutely what happened to me.

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<v Speaker 1>Our system. Since I've been out ten years, it has

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<v Speaker 1>come a little ways, but it's still broken.

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<v Speaker 4>I totally lost trusting humanity after what's happened to me.

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<v Speaker 5>This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with

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<v Speaker 5>Jason Flohm. Today, I have a very special guest, my

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<v Speaker 5>friend and my colleague on the board of the Innocence

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<v Speaker 5>Project for a long time, Calvin Johnson. Calvin, welcome to

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<v Speaker 5>the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, thank you for having me.

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<v Speaker 5>Jason Calvin, you are an extraordinary I don't embarrass you,

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<v Speaker 5>but you are an extraordinary person. Your spirit really lights

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<v Speaker 5>up every room that you walk into. And I've seen

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<v Speaker 5>you walk into a lot of rooms, so I know this.

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<v Speaker 5>But your story is insane in many ways, but also

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<v Speaker 5>typical in certain ways of wrongful convictions. And I want

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<v Speaker 5>to get right into that and I'll explain what I

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<v Speaker 5>mean as we go along. But this goes back to

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<v Speaker 5>nineteen eighty three, but I want to go back even

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<v Speaker 5>a little further than that, because you grew up in

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<v Speaker 5>a very nice environment, good family. I mean, can you

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<v Speaker 5>explain what your childhood was like.

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<v Speaker 2>I really had a really great childhood. I was brought

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<v Speaker 2>up in a middle class setting. My father was a

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<v Speaker 2>lawyer and my mother, she worked at a college as

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<v Speaker 2>an administrative assistant. My father later became a senator, the

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<v Speaker 2>first black state senator in Hamilton County in Ohio. So

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<v Speaker 2>I really was brought up in a very nice setting.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember living in a nice home, having my own room,

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<v Speaker 2>even had a game room with slock car racing sets,

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<v Speaker 2>train sets. It was just a very, very very nice environment.

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<v Speaker 2>I also kind of say, when I look back at it,

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<v Speaker 2>I felt kind of protected because I wasn't exposed to

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of negative things. Are a lot of bad

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<v Speaker 2>things in the world. So I can remember days like

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<v Speaker 2>when the first time I saw when Martin Luther King

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<v Speaker 2>got assassinated and I saw my mother crying in front

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<v Speaker 2>of the TV. It had a profound effect on me

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<v Speaker 2>because I was like, well, what's going on? I saw

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<v Speaker 2>people riding riding and people protesting, and it's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>just opened up my eyes to a lot of things.

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<v Speaker 2>I said, Wow, look, look what's going on in the world.

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<v Speaker 2>It's things out there that I hadn't even been aware of,

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<v Speaker 2>and it really, really I started looking at the world

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit different.

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<v Speaker 5>Now. None of this would have prepared you for what

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<v Speaker 5>was about to happen on that faithful day in nineteen

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<v Speaker 5>eighty three when your life literally went from being I

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<v Speaker 5>want to say a dream, but like your whole future

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<v Speaker 5>was in front of you and everything was looking good.

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<v Speaker 5>You're a smart guy. You came from a great family,

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<v Speaker 5>you had good upbringing, you had every opportunity to be

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<v Speaker 5>successful in the world, and then all of a sudden,

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<v Speaker 5>you get arrested and charged with a crime that you

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<v Speaker 5>had no knowledge of it nothing to do with, and

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<v Speaker 5>then ultimately charged with another crime. I mean, this is

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<v Speaker 5>a crazy story because there were two separate incidents, one

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<v Speaker 5>of which was used against you in the trial for

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<v Speaker 5>the other one, and then later on when the charges

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<v Speaker 5>were dropped for that one, it was too late because

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<v Speaker 5>you were I mean, it's really a nutty and terrifying scenario.

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<v Speaker 5>What happened to you? And can you explain the circumstances

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<v Speaker 5>of how this happened in the first place, and why

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<v Speaker 5>did they focus on you, and how could they have

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<v Speaker 5>gotten this so wrong?

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<v Speaker 2>Like you said, it is a little crazy, Jason, it

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<v Speaker 2>really is. I'm to just go back just a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit further in my upbringing, because I remember when my

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<v Speaker 2>family moved to Atlanta, Georgia, and we moved into this

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<v Speaker 2>really nice neighborhood where there were professional football players and

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<v Speaker 2>doctors and lawyers and people in the political field. And

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<v Speaker 2>I'm riding around on mini bikes and motorcycles, was growing

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<v Speaker 2>up and just living a great life, and it was

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<v Speaker 2>it was considered the upper echelon of Atlanta for blacks

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<v Speaker 2>at that time. And I went to college, and once

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<v Speaker 2>I graduate from high school, I went to college with

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<v Speaker 2>as you said, I went to college. I was at

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<v Speaker 2>Clark College in Atlanta, Georgia and getting my education and

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<v Speaker 2>I graduated with a bachelors's Arts and Mass Communications. And

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<v Speaker 2>you would never imagine anything like this happening to me.

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<v Speaker 2>But then I had a little bit of a wild streak.

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<v Speaker 2>Like most kids, I was adventurous. I didn't just always

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<v Speaker 2>stay on the upper echelon side with the good kids.

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<v Speaker 2>I had the tendency to go over into the to

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<v Speaker 2>the lower neighborhoods. I wouldn't say, I don't like to

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<v Speaker 2>say lower, but I would say economically not as successful

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<v Speaker 2>as we were. And when I used to go over there,

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<v Speaker 2>I just hang out with those guys. And I was

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<v Speaker 2>doing a few things things that I shouldn't have had

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<v Speaker 2>no business doing, I have to be honest about it. Drinking,

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<v Speaker 2>smoking marijuana, having fun, partying, chasing the girls, and I

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<v Speaker 2>just got involved into things that had no business being

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<v Speaker 2>involved with. I knew people that would buy hot items,

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<v Speaker 2>and I knew people that were committing crimes, and I

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<v Speaker 2>got mixed up with some of the wrong people and

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<v Speaker 2>I actually did somebody had no business doing. That started

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<v Speaker 2>the ball to rolling. I put myself in that position

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<v Speaker 2>in the beginning. I did commit a burglary to I'm

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<v Speaker 2>gonna tell you what led up to that. I had

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<v Speaker 2>brought some marijuana one day and at time when I

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<v Speaker 2>was buying the marijuana, the police actually pulled up and

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<v Speaker 2>arrested me and charged me with the marijuana. Having that case,

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<v Speaker 2>I went to see a lawyer, and the lawyer was

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<v Speaker 2>pretty expensive and I didn't have the money. So my

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<v Speaker 2>friends on the other side of the track said, wait, man,

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<v Speaker 2>we can get you some money. Just go ahead and

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<v Speaker 2>if you bring us a few hot items and we

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<v Speaker 2>will take care of it and you can get you

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<v Speaker 2>a lawyer. So I went across to What I did

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<v Speaker 2>was I committed a burglary and got caught, and that's

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<v Speaker 2>what really started everything I was. I pleaded guilty to

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<v Speaker 2>that because I was guilty. You know, I a set

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<v Speaker 2>responsibility for anything that I've done. But if there's something

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<v Speaker 2>that you say that I did that I didn't do,

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<v Speaker 2>then we got a battle.

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<v Speaker 1>On our held.

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<v Speaker 5>So that's that's what put you in the crosshairs of

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<v Speaker 5>the authorities. Right, So when this, you know, when they

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<v Speaker 5>had this terrible incident where this woman had her house

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<v Speaker 5>broken into. It was in College Park, I think, right, Georgia,

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<v Speaker 5>and a woman's house was broken into and she was

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<v Speaker 5>tied up with a belt or strangled with a belt,

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<v Speaker 5>and then I mean, it's a terrible, terrible crime, and

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<v Speaker 5>she was raped and robbed and the whole thing. And

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<v Speaker 5>then how did it end up where they came to

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<v Speaker 5>arrest you? What made them suspect that you were the

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<v Speaker 5>guy that did this? Ultimately was proven that you didn't.

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<v Speaker 5>But how did that? I mean, can you explain that

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<v Speaker 5>whole scenario, because that's where this thing goes really off

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<v Speaker 5>the tracks.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, I'm explaining as best I can. At the time,

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<v Speaker 2>when I got arrested for the burglary, that's basically all

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<v Speaker 2>that I was guilty of. They had some other crimes

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<v Speaker 2>that happened, a rape or two that happened in the

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<v Speaker 2>area of the burglary, and so they decided that they

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<v Speaker 2>were going to clear the record books and charge me

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<v Speaker 2>with those rapes. And this was back in nineteen eighty one,

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<v Speaker 2>and we were getting ready to go to trial and everything,

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<v Speaker 2>and the only thing that really cleared my name was

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<v Speaker 2>that the lady that was assaulted and rape in this

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<v Speaker 2>particular case, she was honest and I really appreciate her honesty.

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<v Speaker 2>She said that I'm positive that the person that raped

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<v Speaker 2>me was an uncircumcised individual, and I had been circumcised

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<v Speaker 2>since birth because I was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, in

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<v Speaker 2>the Jewish hospital and was circumcised since birth. And so

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<v Speaker 2>once that was brought out, they dropped the charges on

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<v Speaker 2>the rape, and basically I just went to prison for

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<v Speaker 2>burglary and I did about a year, maybe a year

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<v Speaker 2>and a half, got back out, started my life over,

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<v Speaker 2>trying to do the positive things and working out every day,

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<v Speaker 2>going to work every day. I was living in my parents'

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<v Speaker 2>house at the time, and shortly one day I was

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<v Speaker 2>coming home. I never forget that day. It was a beautiful,

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<v Speaker 2>beautiful day that day. It was a spring day, and

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<v Speaker 2>I was coming home and I felt a strange feeling.

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<v Speaker 1>Some just wasn't right.

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<v Speaker 2>And as I walked into the house, no sooner than

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<v Speaker 2>I walked into the house, there was that knock on

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<v Speaker 2>the door, like, don't doom.

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<v Speaker 1>I tell people that was the weight of the state.

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<v Speaker 1>They busted the door.

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<v Speaker 2>They put handcuffs on me, extremely tight, so tight that

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<v Speaker 2>I still got bruises on my wrists all these years later,

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<v Speaker 2>and they dragged me out and they charged me with

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<v Speaker 2>these rapes. And it was the same police officers they

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<v Speaker 2>had arrested me earlier, and so now they're charging me

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<v Speaker 2>with some more rapes, saying that you got to be guilty.

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<v Speaker 2>We feel you're guilty of this. But I, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I was innocent. I had no connection with the victim

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<v Speaker 2>or anything. And I remember being in that cold, damp,

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<v Speaker 2>dark cell and just waiting to be to be clear. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>any day I thought that, okay, this is America.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. I brought up in America believing in.

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<v Speaker 2>The judicial system and injustice and justice for all, and

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<v Speaker 2>once that happened, I just I just never, ever, I

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<v Speaker 2>never believed that I would go to prison. I said,

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<v Speaker 2>any day they're going to walk in here and say, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>you're not guilty, You're free.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically how it had all started. Those same police officers

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<v Speaker 2>that had previously arrested me a couple of years earlier,

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<v Speaker 2>rested me again in nineteen eighty three and decided that, Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>now we're going to make sure that we got this

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<v Speaker 2>guy this time. But they had the wrong guy.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm getting the very strong visual of you and knowing

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<v Speaker 5>you as I do, and every time I see you

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<v Speaker 5>wearing a suit and a big smile and everything else,

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<v Speaker 5>and now I'm picturing quite the opposite, right, I'm picturing

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<v Speaker 5>you in this, as you said, the cold, dark, damp cell,

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<v Speaker 5>and still thinking that the justice system is going to

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<v Speaker 5>be just, and that because you didn't do and had

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<v Speaker 5>no knowledge and weren't involved in any way any of

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<v Speaker 5>these in these particular crimes, that you were going to

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<v Speaker 5>be freed probably relatively shortly in this, but this proceeded

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<v Speaker 5>to trial in actually a shorter time than many of

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<v Speaker 5>the cases that we see here. It was about six

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<v Speaker 5>months right until you ended up actually on trial for

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<v Speaker 5>your life, literally for your life.

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<v Speaker 1>That's true, Jason.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean they put me into a live lineup before

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<v Speaker 2>I went to trial, and in that live lineup, they

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<v Speaker 2>actually were trying to select the person that committed the

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<v Speaker 2>crime and the individual Joel who I actually went to

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<v Speaker 2>prison for with a life sentence, the individual that actually

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<v Speaker 2>went to prison for picked out another person did not

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<v Speaker 2>pick out Calvin C. Johnson Jr. And all this was

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<v Speaker 2>brought out in a preliminary hearing where they were trying

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<v Speaker 2>to decide whether or not if they were going to

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<v Speaker 2>indict this case and carry it on over to have trial.

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<v Speaker 2>I remember during a preliminary hearing when it was brought

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<v Speaker 2>out that hey, this individual picked out somebody else. I'm

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<v Speaker 2>sitting there thinking like, wow, you know, am I gonna

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<v Speaker 2>go home?

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<v Speaker 1>Now?

0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.000
<v Speaker 2>Are they gonna go ahead and just drop the case.

0:12:34.600 --> 0:12:36.880
<v Speaker 2>And then there was some other facts brought out because

0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:40.840
<v Speaker 2>they asked this individual about her identification procedures how he

0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:45.320
<v Speaker 2>was identified, and apparently they said that I was supposed

0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.800
<v Speaker 2>to have been identified through a photographic from a photographic lineup

0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:53.120
<v Speaker 2>in the beginning, and in questioning this individual, they said, well,

0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.959
<v Speaker 2>what kind of photographs were they?

0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.400
<v Speaker 1>Color? Were they black and white?

0:12:58.520 --> 0:13:00.840
<v Speaker 2>And she was kind of shaking, like, you know, she

0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:04.360
<v Speaker 2>wasn't sure, and she actually said, well, I think they

0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:08.360
<v Speaker 2>were color. They were color pictures. So later on we

0:13:08.400 --> 0:13:11.400
<v Speaker 2>brought a police officer in who had been said questioned,

0:13:11.480 --> 0:13:13.560
<v Speaker 2>so he didn't hear what she said. And when he

0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.319
<v Speaker 2>came in, we asked him, do you have the pictures

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:20.320
<v Speaker 2>with you today that Calvin Johnson was identified from? And

0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:22.760
<v Speaker 2>he said, yes, I do, and he showed them to

0:13:22.880 --> 0:13:25.600
<v Speaker 2>us and they were a serious of small black and

0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:29.360
<v Speaker 2>white pictures. And I'm sitting there in the courtroom, you know,

0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:32.640
<v Speaker 2>my eyes are wide, my head is shaking back and

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:36.600
<v Speaker 2>forth because I'm in disbelief, and I'm saying, well, cat,

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.480
<v Speaker 2>to just see that something is not right here. And

0:13:39.559 --> 0:13:43.240
<v Speaker 2>I kept believing that I would actually that at that moment,

0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:44.480
<v Speaker 2>and it meant minute.

0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:45.840
<v Speaker 1>He would say, Okay, you're free to go.

0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.760
<v Speaker 2>I remember going back to my cell and sitting in

0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:03.200
<v Speaker 2>there selling, you know, just wondering what's going on, what's

0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:05.559
<v Speaker 2>going on? And so one day they dragged me out

0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:07.960
<v Speaker 2>their cell, Jason. They just took me and they jack

0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.160
<v Speaker 2>dragged me out. They handcuffed me all around my waist

0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.960
<v Speaker 2>and around my ankles and took me to a local

0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.440
<v Speaker 2>hospital and set me in a room with the door

0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.320
<v Speaker 2>wide open, and then they made me strip down and

0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:21.640
<v Speaker 2>they just they didn't close the door. It was inhumane.

0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.840
<v Speaker 2>And they started plucking hairs from my body and taking

0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 2>blood samples and for comparison purpose to see if anything

0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.400
<v Speaker 2>mashed up with the individual that committed the crime. And

0:14:33.480 --> 0:14:36.160
<v Speaker 2>as they did all this, Jason, I remember when they

0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.200
<v Speaker 2>came back and they said, well I got I got

0:14:38.240 --> 0:14:41.320
<v Speaker 2>good news and I got bad news. I said, well, well,

0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:43.600
<v Speaker 2>what's the good news and what's the bad news. Well,

0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.680
<v Speaker 2>the good news is that the hair samples came back

0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.680
<v Speaker 2>and they matched. They belonged to a person of African

0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.760
<v Speaker 2>American ancestry. But the hair sapple did not match you.

0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:57.360
<v Speaker 2>I said what, I said, Well, am I going home now?

0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.880
<v Speaker 2>And they said, well, no, that's the bad news. You know,

0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:03.800
<v Speaker 2>the blood sapple came back and it was all positive.

0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:06.320
<v Speaker 2>They didn't have DNA technology, they weren't using it in

0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.400
<v Speaker 2>the courts at that time, and said, oh positive, Well,

0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:14.120
<v Speaker 2>most of America. America is a positive. Majority of the

0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.800
<v Speaker 2>population is oh positive. And because I'm all positive, the

0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.880
<v Speaker 2>person that committed crime was OH positive, they decided, okay,

0:15:21.920 --> 0:15:23.760
<v Speaker 2>we're gonna go forth with the trial because he must

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.720
<v Speaker 2>have committed the crime. I mean, it was really really crazy.

0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:30.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean even the jury selection was crazy. They it

0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:34.000
<v Speaker 2>was in the county that were predominantly white, Clayton County, Georgia,

0:15:34.720 --> 0:15:37.880
<v Speaker 2>and they had three or four blacks, which they systematically

0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.920
<v Speaker 2>struck from the jury and I ended up with all

0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.320
<v Speaker 2>white jury. The victim was white, and as we proceeded

0:15:45.360 --> 0:15:49.400
<v Speaker 2>to the trial portion, I'm sitting there facing the all

0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.280
<v Speaker 2>white jury with a victim that's white, that's crime, and

0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.160
<v Speaker 2>pointing the finger and saying, this black man raped her.

0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:57.680
<v Speaker 2>What chance do would I have? Jason? I mean, what chance?

0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:00.440
<v Speaker 2>In a situation like that, you have no chance forsoever.

0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.760
<v Speaker 2>And that's why I emphasized the fact of the fact

0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.320
<v Speaker 2>that you know, a jury needs to be culturally diverse,

0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.600
<v Speaker 2>different ethnic backgrounds, otherwise you don't stand much of a chance. Basically,

0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.520
<v Speaker 2>I was railroaded, and through the course of the trial

0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:17.080
<v Speaker 2>a lot, a lot of evidence was brought out in

0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:20.560
<v Speaker 2>my behalf. I had alibi testimony. I was at home

0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:23.920
<v Speaker 2>living with my parents. We had a dog, you know,

0:16:24.040 --> 0:16:26.120
<v Speaker 2>my dad. I didn't even have a car at the time,

0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:28.440
<v Speaker 2>and my dad, you know, was take would take me

0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.120
<v Speaker 2>to work in the morning time every day. And all

0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:32.800
<v Speaker 2>this was brought out. You know that you know that

0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:35.040
<v Speaker 2>I was at home my parents. My plury came, he

0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.320
<v Speaker 2>testified at the trial, and he even showed my employee

0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:41.040
<v Speaker 2>ID picture of me having a full beer. Said Calvin

0:16:41.120 --> 0:16:43.560
<v Speaker 2>Johnson has a full beer that had a full beer

0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:47.000
<v Speaker 2>at that time, and they didn't they.

0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:52.920
<v Speaker 5>Didn't wear so that the victim had told the authorities

0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.560
<v Speaker 5>that the assailant was clean shaven, Is that right?

0:16:57.720 --> 0:17:00.880
<v Speaker 2>Well, she said that he had I think if I

0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.440
<v Speaker 2>remember correctly, that she said that he had a mustache,

0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:09.439
<v Speaker 2>and she didn't even describe anything about any facial hair

0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:12.080
<v Speaker 2>until later on where she actually said that it may

0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.359
<v Speaker 2>have been some stokee so, but she never mentioned anything

0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:15.880
<v Speaker 2>about a food.

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:20.119
<v Speaker 5>So so here you are, I mean, and what's you know,

0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:24.520
<v Speaker 5>what's common common factors that we see in your case

0:17:25.280 --> 0:17:30.520
<v Speaker 5>our eyewitness misidentification and unvalidated or improper forensic science. And

0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.560
<v Speaker 5>in this case it was flawed zerology, right, because, as

0:17:33.600 --> 0:17:37.719
<v Speaker 5>you were saying, the idea that the lab analysts testified

0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:40.720
<v Speaker 5>at trial that thirty six percent of the male population

0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:44.000
<v Speaker 5>could be excluded as potential contributors to the semen was

0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.920
<v Speaker 5>absolutely wrong because in this case, the victim and the

0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:53.240
<v Speaker 5>and the perpetrator shared shared common traits which actually meant

0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:58.160
<v Speaker 5>for reasons that are that are complex in science. But basically,

0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:00.840
<v Speaker 5>the victims blood group markers could have been masking the

0:18:00.880 --> 0:18:04.840
<v Speaker 5>perpetrators and under such circumstances. The failure I'm reading this part,

0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:06.879
<v Speaker 5>the failure to inform the jury that one hundred percent,

0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.479
<v Speaker 5>one hundred percent of the male population could have been

0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.119
<v Speaker 5>included and that none could be excluded, was highly misleading.

0:18:14.200 --> 0:18:17.920
<v Speaker 5>Even still though all you're doing, even if she was right,

0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.680
<v Speaker 5>which she wasn't, you would say that you could only

0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:24.160
<v Speaker 5>eliminate thirty six percent of the population. That's not enough

0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:26.000
<v Speaker 5>to convict somebody instead of the prison for the rest

0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.200
<v Speaker 5>of her life when you have all of this exculpatory

0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.639
<v Speaker 5>evidence that was brought forward. But the fact is you

0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:36.920
<v Speaker 5>were in an impossible situation, as you described, and you

0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:41.239
<v Speaker 5>had virtually no chance. So what was that moment if

0:18:41.280 --> 0:18:45.840
<v Speaker 5>you could describe the courtroom at that moment, was when

0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.639
<v Speaker 5>the most terrible moment of your life when the jury

0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:52.200
<v Speaker 5>came back and rendered you guilty.

0:18:53.920 --> 0:18:56.840
<v Speaker 2>It was sad. The reason why I use the word

0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:02.360
<v Speaker 2>sad because my parents were there. I'm a pretty kind

0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:04.840
<v Speaker 2>of look at myself as a pretty tough guy. But

0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:08.760
<v Speaker 2>I hear the guilty verdict and I'm looking back. That's

0:19:08.800 --> 0:19:11.760
<v Speaker 2>the first idea. I look back at my mom and

0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.920
<v Speaker 2>I can see the expression out her face, the expression

0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:20.080
<v Speaker 2>of a disbelief. But my dad was he it was like,

0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.040
<v Speaker 2>you know, he had a serious look because my dad

0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.320
<v Speaker 2>had a little more knowledge and he knew what was

0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.480
<v Speaker 2>going on, and he knew that my chances were slim,

0:19:29.720 --> 0:19:33.159
<v Speaker 2>So I don't think he was surprised. But a mother's

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.159
<v Speaker 2>love for her son is something special, and it just

0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:37.640
<v Speaker 2>it literally broke her heart.

0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:38.760
<v Speaker 1>And I could see it.

0:19:38.960 --> 0:19:41.080
<v Speaker 2>I can see it at that time, and that's what

0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:44.399
<v Speaker 2>bothered me more than anything, you know, looking back and

0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:48.679
<v Speaker 2>only seeing my mom's expression, you know, and I can

0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:51.159
<v Speaker 2>see it. It was written all over her face. And shortly

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:54.320
<v Speaker 2>after that, my mom did suffer a very serious stroke

0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.200
<v Speaker 2>because it broke.

0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.399
<v Speaker 5>From now you get taken away, ultimately sentenced to a

0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:08.160
<v Speaker 5>double life term, right and taken to prison. And I've

0:20:08.200 --> 0:20:11.000
<v Speaker 5>heard you in a speech that you gave, very powerful

0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:14.560
<v Speaker 5>speech that you gave. Explain what that was like. And

0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:18.000
<v Speaker 5>it just blew my mind to take us there, Calvin,

0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:20.080
<v Speaker 5>you what prison were you sent to?

0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:23.800
<v Speaker 2>I was sent to a prison in South Georgia. I

0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.720
<v Speaker 2>was actually sent to the hardest working state prison in

0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:28.520
<v Speaker 2>the state of Georgia.

0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:29.040
<v Speaker 1>At that time.

0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:33.800
<v Speaker 2>I was young, twenty five years old, and they decided that,

0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:35.920
<v Speaker 2>you know, this is a young person that he can

0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.120
<v Speaker 2>go down there. And it was really basically they send

0:20:39.119 --> 0:20:42.440
<v Speaker 2>you down there to this prison and you work. It's

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:46.000
<v Speaker 2>a work camp, and everybody in the prison. It's a

0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:48.600
<v Speaker 2>small prison, know the more than maybe by two hundred men,

0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.800
<v Speaker 2>but everybody there either has life sentence or twenty years more.

0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:54.320
<v Speaker 2>There's no short time as there at all. It's a

0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:59.440
<v Speaker 2>close security prison. And you go outside and you're early.

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.359
<v Speaker 1>In the morning. You wake up in the morning and

0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:02.280
<v Speaker 1>they feed you.

0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:04.439
<v Speaker 2>They walk around for a shotgun above you, like as

0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.960
<v Speaker 2>if to say, hey, you know, feed my boys good.

0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:09.919
<v Speaker 2>And the Wharton's walking around and he's looking down at you.

0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:13.200
<v Speaker 2>And then they take you out. And I remember working

0:21:13.400 --> 0:21:17.960
<v Speaker 2>in swamp land and swamp water and with water up

0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:21.679
<v Speaker 2>to my knees, with moccasins swimming around, and every now

0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:24.639
<v Speaker 2>and then you run across a rattlesnake. And this was

0:21:24.680 --> 0:21:26.800
<v Speaker 2>something that I never dealt with in my life. It

0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.400
<v Speaker 2>was it was really, it was just it was crazy,

0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:32.840
<v Speaker 2>and I had to make this adjustment to just deal

0:21:32.840 --> 0:21:34.679
<v Speaker 2>with that and to deal with the violence of prison

0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.480
<v Speaker 2>where you sleeping in your bed at night with your

0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:40.439
<v Speaker 2>with your shoes on because you never know when you

0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:42.359
<v Speaker 2>might wake up in the middle of the night. I

0:21:42.400 --> 0:21:46.119
<v Speaker 2>remember one time an individual I was sleeping on a

0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:48.359
<v Speaker 2>double bunk and the bump below me started shaking in

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:51.240
<v Speaker 2>the middle of the night, and I looked down and

0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:54.200
<v Speaker 2>the guy below me were being stabbed because he borrought

0:21:54.280 --> 0:21:57.959
<v Speaker 2>some money I bought. Basically, it's not money, but cigarettes

0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:01.120
<v Speaker 2>are candy or something, and he didn't pay his debt,

0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.760
<v Speaker 2>and so it's his own world. It's we call this

0:22:06.000 --> 0:22:09.199
<v Speaker 2>on the outside the free world. The prison world is

0:22:09.240 --> 0:22:12.560
<v Speaker 2>a whole different world in itself, and it's run differently,

0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:15.159
<v Speaker 2>and it's just a matter of survival. You got You

0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.000
<v Speaker 2>go in there and you try to survive. And the

0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.760
<v Speaker 2>strong pay pray upon the week, so you have to

0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:23.800
<v Speaker 2>be strong. So during the course of years when I

0:22:23.840 --> 0:22:26.000
<v Speaker 2>was in prison, I used to just lift weights all

0:22:26.040 --> 0:22:28.280
<v Speaker 2>the time. It was a way, it was a therapy.

0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:30.879
<v Speaker 2>It was a way for me to relieve some of

0:22:30.920 --> 0:22:34.719
<v Speaker 2>the anxiety and the emotions that were After I lifted them,

0:22:34.800 --> 0:22:36.680
<v Speaker 2>I was too tired to do anything or to get

0:22:36.720 --> 0:22:39.399
<v Speaker 2>in any trouble. Plus it built me up physically so

0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.320
<v Speaker 2>that I could defend myself, or at least people would

0:22:42.320 --> 0:22:45.600
<v Speaker 2>think twice about before trying to take advantage of me anyway,

0:22:45.600 --> 0:22:49.080
<v Speaker 2>because I was physically fit. And those years went by,

0:22:49.520 --> 0:22:53.520
<v Speaker 2>and I remember being in prison and they wanted us

0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:57.080
<v Speaker 2>to you know, prison doesn't rehabilitate you, but they like

0:22:57.200 --> 0:23:00.720
<v Speaker 2>to make society think that they and their rehability tain people.

0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.440
<v Speaker 2>And they had this program in there called the Sexual

0:23:03.480 --> 0:23:06.560
<v Speaker 2>Offenders program that they wanted me to be involved in.

0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:10.679
<v Speaker 2>And I'm like, hell, you want me to be involved

0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:13.680
<v Speaker 2>in the sexual offenders program? And so I had people

0:23:14.080 --> 0:23:16.399
<v Speaker 2>make suggestions and say stuff like, you know, even my

0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.280
<v Speaker 2>family just say just just do the program, play along

0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.199
<v Speaker 2>with them so that you can get out. And so

0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.320
<v Speaker 2>you actually think about this, you know, crazy thought. But

0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:29.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, hey, I can't sit there and say I

0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.000
<v Speaker 2>did something that I didn't do. So I went ahead

0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:35.639
<v Speaker 2>and got into the program for a little while. And

0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:37.520
<v Speaker 2>as I was in the program, you go through the

0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:40.720
<v Speaker 2>first half, I felt terrible. I'm sitting in the room

0:23:40.760 --> 0:23:45.439
<v Speaker 2>with sexual predators, rapists and child molesters, and I just

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:48.080
<v Speaker 2>I just don't feel right. I don't say anything. I'm

0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:50.320
<v Speaker 2>just sitting there in the room every day going to

0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:53.639
<v Speaker 2>this little class. And then finally they complete that part

0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:55.960
<v Speaker 2>and you get to the second portion of the program,

0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:58.639
<v Speaker 2>and they say that order to complete the program, you

0:23:58.680 --> 0:24:01.840
<v Speaker 2>have to sign an admission again up and I'm like,

0:24:01.960 --> 0:24:04.920
<v Speaker 2>what sign a mission to guilt? I said, I can't

0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.400
<v Speaker 2>do that. I can't do that because I'm not guilty.

0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.240
<v Speaker 2>And then I went to see my counselor, and the

0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:13.240
<v Speaker 2>counselor looked at me and looked me in my eyes

0:24:13.280 --> 0:24:16.040
<v Speaker 2>and told me said, listen, if you don't sign that

0:24:16.160 --> 0:24:19.520
<v Speaker 2>mission to guilt, you'll probably never ever get out of prison.

0:24:19.560 --> 0:24:21.440
<v Speaker 2>You'll be here for the rest of your life. And

0:24:21.520 --> 0:24:24.720
<v Speaker 2>so guys were taking this course and signing the missions

0:24:24.720 --> 0:24:27.960
<v Speaker 2>of guilt and then they would get parolled out. But

0:24:28.680 --> 0:24:30.879
<v Speaker 2>I sat there. I thought about it. I prayed about it,

0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:33.280
<v Speaker 2>and I thought about it. I said to myself, I'd

0:24:33.359 --> 0:24:35.879
<v Speaker 2>rather die in prison to sit there and say that

0:24:35.960 --> 0:24:38.000
<v Speaker 2>I did something that I didn't do. I said, what

0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:40.359
<v Speaker 2>kind of life would I have come out of prison

0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:43.120
<v Speaker 2>with that stigma over me. I said, I couldn't live.

0:24:43.480 --> 0:24:45.800
<v Speaker 2>I'll walk out into my yard and the neighborhod run

0:24:45.800 --> 0:24:47.800
<v Speaker 2>out and grabbed the children and run inside the house.

0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:51.080
<v Speaker 2>That's not a life, that's not a life. So I

0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:53.840
<v Speaker 2>refused to do it. Those years went on, and those

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:57.000
<v Speaker 2>years went on within prison, and I remember getting to

0:24:57.000 --> 0:25:00.880
<v Speaker 2>a point where my tempers started getting short, I started

0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:05.600
<v Speaker 2>being anti social. I felt like a walking time bomb.

0:25:05.880 --> 0:25:08.680
<v Speaker 2>I felt like a rubber band being stretched to a

0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:11.119
<v Speaker 2>point that was just getting ready to take pole and

0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:14.600
<v Speaker 2>just pop. And I remember at that point, at that time,

0:25:15.160 --> 0:25:18.040
<v Speaker 2>I just got down on my knees and I prayed.

0:25:18.520 --> 0:25:21.240
<v Speaker 2>I prayed, and I couldn't deal with the burden. That's

0:25:21.280 --> 0:25:24.399
<v Speaker 2>when God entered into my life and my life changed.

0:25:24.680 --> 0:25:27.120
<v Speaker 2>And then I remember hearing about DNA technology.

0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:39.960
<v Speaker 5>This is down getting to the part of the story that's,

0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:44.000
<v Speaker 5>you know, always the best part, I guess, right, which

0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:47.440
<v Speaker 5>is when things turn around in the right direction. And

0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:51.360
<v Speaker 5>in your case, it was the Innocence Project, which obviously

0:25:51.400 --> 0:25:53.679
<v Speaker 5>I have a very close connection with, being the founding

0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:56.600
<v Speaker 5>board member and being having served on the board for

0:25:56.680 --> 0:25:59.359
<v Speaker 5>so many years and so many years alongside you, and

0:25:59.480 --> 0:26:03.919
<v Speaker 5>so you started learning about the DNA technology and it

0:26:04.000 --> 0:26:06.080
<v Speaker 5>must have been like a light bulb going off, like, wait,

0:26:06.119 --> 0:26:07.640
<v Speaker 5>there might be hope for me after all.

0:26:08.920 --> 0:26:13.080
<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, that's exactly what happened. I was working in

0:26:13.200 --> 0:26:18.040
<v Speaker 2>the library in the prison. Because of my educational background,

0:26:18.400 --> 0:26:21.280
<v Speaker 2>they gave me a job in the library, and they

0:26:21.320 --> 0:26:25.560
<v Speaker 2>had the regular library for the prisoners to convicts, and

0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:29.960
<v Speaker 2>they also had a law library that you could use

0:26:30.000 --> 0:26:34.919
<v Speaker 2>at times. And the staff member who he ran both libraries,

0:26:35.200 --> 0:26:37.560
<v Speaker 2>and he would allow me to have access to go

0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:40.280
<v Speaker 2>into the law library whenever I wanted. And one day

0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:45.960
<v Speaker 2>I stumbled across an article of DNA technology where people

0:26:46.000 --> 0:26:50.160
<v Speaker 2>were actually getting out of prison based on this technology,

0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:53.360
<v Speaker 2>and I said, Wow, now I'm trying to figure out

0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:56.600
<v Speaker 2>how the heck can I get a DNA test.

0:26:56.800 --> 0:26:58.880
<v Speaker 1>I really really, really really really.

0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:02.120
<v Speaker 2>Wanted to do that to to prove that I was innocent,

0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:05.360
<v Speaker 2>but that was a struggle in his self. And they

0:27:05.359 --> 0:27:08.720
<v Speaker 2>had a guy named Jim Browner Jim Bonner. He used

0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:10.840
<v Speaker 2>to come into the Prisident. He was with the project

0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:15.199
<v Speaker 2>called Prisident Legal Counseling Projects, who did little simple stuff

0:27:15.240 --> 0:27:19.359
<v Speaker 2>like haybist corporates for prisoners and so forth. And I

0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:22.239
<v Speaker 2>talked to him. I told him about my situation, and

0:27:22.240 --> 0:27:24.800
<v Speaker 2>he's actually the one that got the bass started in

0:27:24.840 --> 0:27:27.119
<v Speaker 2>the beginning, because when I told him about it, I

0:27:27.119 --> 0:27:29.680
<v Speaker 2>told him my whole story. And after that I looked

0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:30.879
<v Speaker 2>him in the eye and said, you don't have to

0:27:30.880 --> 0:27:32.720
<v Speaker 2>believe a word, I said, I said, but let me

0:27:32.760 --> 0:27:35.840
<v Speaker 2>send you my transcript. And I gave him my transcript

0:27:36.080 --> 0:27:38.600
<v Speaker 2>and one day he read it and he came back

0:27:38.840 --> 0:27:41.120
<v Speaker 2>he said, Man, I can't believe this. He said, I'm

0:27:41.119 --> 0:27:42.840
<v Speaker 2>really I really wanted to try to do something to

0:27:42.880 --> 0:27:46.439
<v Speaker 2>help you, because this is an atrocity in itself, and

0:27:46.480 --> 0:27:48.440
<v Speaker 2>he said, I just can't believe that this happened to you.

0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:51.560
<v Speaker 2>And he started trying to see if there was some

0:27:51.640 --> 0:27:55.600
<v Speaker 2>type of way that we can do something about my situation,

0:27:56.200 --> 0:28:02.639
<v Speaker 2>and he found basically emotionn't called the extraordinary motion based

0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:05.479
<v Speaker 2>on newly discovered evidence, and to try to see if

0:28:05.520 --> 0:28:08.320
<v Speaker 2>they even had the evidence, if it still existed. And

0:28:08.400 --> 0:28:10.280
<v Speaker 2>so they went on the search to see if the

0:28:10.320 --> 0:28:13.560
<v Speaker 2>evidence even still existed, and in my case is one

0:28:13.560 --> 0:28:17.520
<v Speaker 2>of the really strange cases because at first they couldn't

0:28:17.520 --> 0:28:22.440
<v Speaker 2>find it. But what happened was they had actually were

0:28:22.480 --> 0:28:24.760
<v Speaker 2>going to destroy the evidence. There was no laws at

0:28:24.760 --> 0:28:26.360
<v Speaker 2>that time. They said they had to keep it after

0:28:26.560 --> 0:28:29.280
<v Speaker 2>after the trial, and the evidence had been thrown into

0:28:29.320 --> 0:28:32.879
<v Speaker 2>a trash bend to be destroyed, and somebody from the

0:28:32.920 --> 0:28:35.119
<v Speaker 2>court they saw it and they said, hey, why is

0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:38.520
<v Speaker 2>this evidence being destroyed and throw it away, and they

0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:39.560
<v Speaker 2>took it and they put it.

0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:43.440
<v Speaker 5>Back hold on a second miracr The evidence that freed

0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:46.600
<v Speaker 5>you was actually in a trash can and somebody saw

0:28:46.640 --> 0:28:48.200
<v Speaker 5>it and had like your name on it or something

0:28:48.200 --> 0:28:49.880
<v Speaker 5>like that, and was like, wait, let me pluck that out.

0:28:50.000 --> 0:28:52.560
<v Speaker 5>Is that that seems like it seems unreal?

0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:54.360
<v Speaker 1>It does.

0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:57.160
<v Speaker 2>It does seem very unreal. But this is exactly how

0:28:57.160 --> 0:29:00.360
<v Speaker 2>it was explained to me that it was actually, you know,

0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:02.760
<v Speaker 2>in the trash bend to be destroyed.

0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:05.040
<v Speaker 1>I look at that. It was a miracle. It was

0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:05.600
<v Speaker 1>a miracle.

0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:09.920
<v Speaker 2>And so the evidence was was brought back out and

0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:12.480
<v Speaker 2>that was the evidence that they were going to test.

0:29:12.520 --> 0:29:16.760
<v Speaker 2>But then after that they took and the prison and

0:29:16.840 --> 0:29:20.240
<v Speaker 2>Legal Counselor project that was helping me with this guy,

0:29:20.400 --> 0:29:24.160
<v Speaker 2>they actually stopped the project. So I'm looking, I said, well, wow,

0:29:24.280 --> 0:29:27.880
<v Speaker 2>now what did I do? And then a friend, a

0:29:27.880 --> 0:29:30.440
<v Speaker 2>friend of mine who knew the plight of my situation,

0:29:30.840 --> 0:29:32.720
<v Speaker 2>who lived in Ohio, who I grew up with.

0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:34.360
<v Speaker 1>They were at I.

0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Guess what you call a place where you hand out

0:29:37.000 --> 0:29:39.440
<v Speaker 2>food and clothing and so forth to people to come

0:29:39.440 --> 0:29:41.960
<v Speaker 2>through that are in need. And some guy this was

0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:44.479
<v Speaker 2>in Ohio. I don't know who the guy was, but

0:29:44.600 --> 0:29:48.320
<v Speaker 2>some guy was in the line and he was young.

0:29:48.480 --> 0:29:52.280
<v Speaker 2>And my I call my aut Marty, who was my godmother.

0:29:52.720 --> 0:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>She said, well, you know, man, why don't you have

0:29:55.000 --> 0:29:58.200
<v Speaker 2>a job. Why are you in this line? And he said, well,

0:29:58.480 --> 0:30:00.840
<v Speaker 2>I just recently got out of prison. And he told

0:30:00.840 --> 0:30:03.960
<v Speaker 2>her about he mentioned about the Innocence Project. He said,

0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:06.400
<v Speaker 2>they got me out of prison for a crime I

0:30:06.400 --> 0:30:09.120
<v Speaker 2>didn't commit. And they said, wow, you know, give us

0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:11.920
<v Speaker 2>the information. Just give us that information and we'll bring

0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:14.040
<v Speaker 2>you some more clothes and help you out a little

0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:16.000
<v Speaker 2>bit more. Just give it the information card. We know

0:30:16.120 --> 0:30:18.760
<v Speaker 2>somebody in the same situation. And they wrote me a

0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:21.440
<v Speaker 2>letter and he gave me the information about the Innocent Project.

0:30:21.720 --> 0:30:24.320
<v Speaker 2>And that's when I got in contact with the Innocent Project.

0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:26.840
<v Speaker 5>And this was not too long after the Innisce project

0:30:26.840 --> 0:30:29.680
<v Speaker 5>had started, because we're talking about late nineties now, right,

0:30:31.240 --> 0:30:33.680
<v Speaker 5>And so yeah, so you because I know that you

0:30:33.760 --> 0:30:41.400
<v Speaker 5>were the first DNA exonery in Georgia, right, Yes, that's

0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:44.320
<v Speaker 5>a powerful thing. I mean, that's that no one's ever

0:30:44.360 --> 0:30:45.880
<v Speaker 5>going to take that away from you. I know that's

0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:48.240
<v Speaker 5>not you know, I always say to all the guests

0:30:48.240 --> 0:30:50.840
<v Speaker 5>that we have on the show. You know, I'm happy

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:52.400
<v Speaker 5>you're here, but i'm sorry you're here because you're a

0:30:52.440 --> 0:30:54.080
<v Speaker 5>member of a club that no one should ever have

0:30:54.160 --> 0:30:55.680
<v Speaker 5>to be a member of, and no one would ever

0:30:55.760 --> 0:30:57.840
<v Speaker 5>want to be a member of. But that is an

0:30:57.840 --> 0:31:00.440
<v Speaker 5>amazing distinction. And of course now you're so serving with

0:31:00.480 --> 0:31:02.640
<v Speaker 5>distinction not only on the Interst's Project board in New York,

0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:05.040
<v Speaker 5>but also the board of the Georgia Intercess Project. So

0:31:05.480 --> 0:31:08.120
<v Speaker 5>that's so there's two there's two miracles here, right, One

0:31:08.160 --> 0:31:10.640
<v Speaker 5>is pulling the thing out of the garbage can, and

0:31:10.680 --> 0:31:13.960
<v Speaker 5>the other is bumping into this guy sort of randomly

0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:17.080
<v Speaker 5>who had this information that you were looking for. And

0:31:17.120 --> 0:31:19.320
<v Speaker 5>then things started to really progress.

0:31:20.240 --> 0:31:23.600
<v Speaker 2>Once I got involved with the Innocence Project. Actually, uh,

0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:26.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, once they took it, I actually I had

0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:29.800
<v Speaker 2>very strong faith in them. I believed once they took it,

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:31.800
<v Speaker 2>I said, okay, wow, just a matter of time before

0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:35.400
<v Speaker 2>I walk away and then I'm free. But then they

0:31:35.440 --> 0:31:39.120
<v Speaker 2>took and they had my evidence tested, and once they

0:31:39.120 --> 0:31:43.320
<v Speaker 2>had it tested, it came back where it was inconclusive.

0:31:43.440 --> 0:31:46.720
<v Speaker 2>At first, it actually came back inconclusive. And then I

0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:50.200
<v Speaker 2>remember talking to Barry and Peter on the phone, and

0:31:50.240 --> 0:31:52.600
<v Speaker 2>they were saying, you got a choice. You know, what

0:31:52.960 --> 0:31:55.000
<v Speaker 2>are you going to do now? They said, all the

0:31:55.040 --> 0:31:59.000
<v Speaker 2>evidence is basically almost almost used up. If we continue

0:31:59.040 --> 0:32:02.440
<v Speaker 2>to test, then what happened is if we use up

0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:04.400
<v Speaker 2>out evidence, you'll never get out of prison. Come, we

0:32:04.400 --> 0:32:06.640
<v Speaker 2>won't have anything else to test. All You can wait

0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:11.000
<v Speaker 2>till years later when technology improves, as we get better technology,

0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:13.800
<v Speaker 2>then we can test that small amount of evidence and

0:32:13.880 --> 0:32:16.520
<v Speaker 2>try to get the proper result. They said, we do

0:32:16.600 --> 0:32:19.360
<v Speaker 2>an know a guy in California named doctor Edward Blake

0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:22.400
<v Speaker 2>who's really good. Now it's up to you to make

0:32:22.440 --> 0:32:25.520
<v Speaker 2>that decision. And I decided, you know, at that time,

0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:29.200
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, you know, let's go ahead. Let's go ahead.

0:32:29.240 --> 0:32:31.640
<v Speaker 2>I we rather were using up or not, you know,

0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:34.040
<v Speaker 2>let's go forward. And they sent it out to a

0:32:34.080 --> 0:32:37.280
<v Speaker 2>guy named doctor Edward Blake, and doctor Edward Blake tested

0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:39.640
<v Speaker 2>it and he came back with the results. And I

0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:43.320
<v Speaker 2>can't really say how you know the numbers, but I

0:32:43.400 --> 0:32:46.320
<v Speaker 2>know will proven beyond any reasonable doubt that there was

0:32:46.360 --> 0:32:48.520
<v Speaker 2>no way through then that technology that I could could

0:32:48.520 --> 0:32:52.120
<v Speaker 2>have committed the crime. And that was in November of

0:32:52.440 --> 0:32:57.160
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety eight. And it still wasn't until nineteen ninety

0:32:57.280 --> 0:33:01.040
<v Speaker 2>nine before I actually was able to walk out of prison.

0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:05.160
<v Speaker 5>So let's talk about that. June fifteenth, nineteen ninety nine,

0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:10.520
<v Speaker 5>was your exoneration date. And what was the scene in

0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:13.440
<v Speaker 5>the courtroom. Let's do this again, right, so this is

0:33:14.000 --> 0:33:17.840
<v Speaker 5>your back in court. Was it the same court where

0:33:17.840 --> 0:33:18.560
<v Speaker 5>you were convicted?

0:33:19.680 --> 0:33:22.240
<v Speaker 2>It wasn't the exact same courtroom, but it was still

0:33:22.240 --> 0:33:25.360
<v Speaker 2>it was Clayton County with Clayton County. Well, I can

0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:28.840
<v Speaker 2>remember before I before I even walked into the courtroom,

0:33:29.120 --> 0:33:32.800
<v Speaker 2>Peter Newfield was there and he was my attorney that day.

0:33:33.440 --> 0:33:38.720
<v Speaker 2>And Peter walked up to me and said, uh, Calvin, uh, there's.

0:33:38.480 --> 0:33:40.280
<v Speaker 1>Going to be some some some newspeople.

0:33:40.440 --> 0:33:42.800
<v Speaker 2>It shouldn't be that bad, but there's gonna be some

0:33:43.400 --> 0:33:46.560
<v Speaker 2>cameras and so forth that may be uh waiting on you.

0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:50.400
<v Speaker 2>And he asked me. He looked at me, he said, Calvin, Uh,

0:33:50.480 --> 0:33:54.120
<v Speaker 2>what do you planning to say? And you know I

0:33:54.160 --> 0:33:56.160
<v Speaker 2>have a way of answering questions and I just looked

0:33:56.200 --> 0:33:58.760
<v Speaker 2>at him and said, Peter, don't worry, I'm not going

0:33:58.760 --> 0:34:01.280
<v Speaker 2>to embarrass you and just kind of laughed.

0:34:01.640 --> 0:34:02.320
<v Speaker 1>And then we went.

0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:06.800
<v Speaker 2>Into the courtroom, and I remember my family was there.

0:34:06.880 --> 0:34:10.200
<v Speaker 2>My mother couldn't be there because she was bedridden at

0:34:10.200 --> 0:34:14.640
<v Speaker 2>the time, so she was in a medical facility but

0:34:14.760 --> 0:34:16.719
<v Speaker 2>so she couldn't be there, but my father was there,

0:34:16.840 --> 0:34:20.000
<v Speaker 2>my sisters were there. I remember the judge going through

0:34:20.000 --> 0:34:23.760
<v Speaker 2>the proceedings and I remember him saying, well, mister Johnson,

0:34:24.160 --> 0:34:27.440
<v Speaker 2>you're free. I remember the prosecutor. He walked over to

0:34:27.480 --> 0:34:31.960
<v Speaker 2>me and he he never did apologize or anything. He

0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:35.040
<v Speaker 2>just kind of reached out and I did shake his hand.

0:34:35.520 --> 0:34:37.399
<v Speaker 2>People wondered, would I even shake his hand, But yes,

0:34:37.600 --> 0:34:40.680
<v Speaker 2>I shook his hand. I shook his hand and he

0:34:40.760 --> 0:34:45.040
<v Speaker 2>said something like, well, uh, I wish you the best.

0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:47.319
<v Speaker 2>But you know, at the time, we felt like we

0:34:47.320 --> 0:34:50.759
<v Speaker 2>were doing what was right, you know, so you know,

0:34:50.800 --> 0:34:53.719
<v Speaker 2>and I kind of I didn't say anything, and so

0:34:53.760 --> 0:34:56.600
<v Speaker 2>we walked on out and all these cameras were there,

0:34:56.680 --> 0:34:59.359
<v Speaker 2>and so it was a good feeling. I walked out,

0:34:59.400 --> 0:35:02.839
<v Speaker 2>and you know, this sunshine. It was another beautiful day,

0:35:03.640 --> 0:35:05.520
<v Speaker 2>and all I wanted to do was go see my mom.

0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:07.400
<v Speaker 2>And I went to see my mom and she was

0:35:07.480 --> 0:35:09.960
<v Speaker 2>bed rim She had a trichia and her throat so

0:35:10.000 --> 0:35:13.879
<v Speaker 2>she couldn't hardly talk but I saw when she saw

0:35:13.920 --> 0:35:16.520
<v Speaker 2>me a tear, a tear ran down her face, and

0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:18.440
<v Speaker 2>I told her that was a tear of joy, and

0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:21.480
<v Speaker 2>that was the most special moment of me being released

0:35:21.719 --> 0:35:22.799
<v Speaker 2>when I walked into that room.

0:35:22.840 --> 0:35:25.680
<v Speaker 5>It's a beautiful moment, like you said, and it's so

0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:28.600
<v Speaker 5>great that she lived to see it. You know, it's

0:35:28.640 --> 0:35:32.719
<v Speaker 5>this silver lining in this dark cloud. And so one

0:35:32.760 --> 0:35:36.120
<v Speaker 5>of the silver lines in this dark cloud. And now, Calvin,

0:35:36.200 --> 0:35:38.960
<v Speaker 5>let's see it's now here. We are twenty eighteen. So

0:35:39.000 --> 0:35:43.960
<v Speaker 5>you've been out for nineteen years now, and tell us

0:35:44.000 --> 0:35:47.319
<v Speaker 5>what your life is like. I know you went to

0:35:47.360 --> 0:35:52.040
<v Speaker 5>work for the transportation authority down there. Marta wrote a book.

0:35:52.120 --> 0:35:56.120
<v Speaker 2>Yes, wow. Well, first of all, when I got out

0:35:56.120 --> 0:35:59.000
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety nine, I got involved with a company

0:35:59.200 --> 0:36:02.560
<v Speaker 2>called tech Real, which was a Christian company, and they

0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:04.759
<v Speaker 2>actually I went on a missionary trip with them to

0:36:04.880 --> 0:36:09.600
<v Speaker 2>your Godda, Africa, and that was amazing. It was a

0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:12.719
<v Speaker 2>very humbling experience because it's a very it's a third

0:36:12.760 --> 0:36:15.520
<v Speaker 2>world country and people are very poor over there. But

0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:18.200
<v Speaker 2>we went over there and we actually went into the

0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:22.239
<v Speaker 2>bush area. We went to Capola University and they made

0:36:22.239 --> 0:36:24.880
<v Speaker 2>me the main speaker and I was shocked because we

0:36:24.920 --> 0:36:28.239
<v Speaker 2>had other ministers with us who had churches, but yet

0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:30.279
<v Speaker 2>they made me the main speaker. I couldn't believe it,

0:36:30.719 --> 0:36:33.440
<v Speaker 2>but I shared my story. It was very well received,

0:36:33.880 --> 0:36:37.520
<v Speaker 2>and it was a very humbling, humbling experience. And I

0:36:37.560 --> 0:36:40.880
<v Speaker 2>remember my dad making jokes like saying, hey, you know,

0:36:40.960 --> 0:36:43.120
<v Speaker 2>you're just as you're two minutes of fame. It said,

0:36:43.160 --> 0:36:45.840
<v Speaker 2>it's not gonna last. But it just kept going on.

0:36:45.960 --> 0:36:48.920
<v Speaker 2>It kept going on. And I remember being on different

0:36:49.200 --> 0:36:54.319
<v Speaker 2>shows different Today, good Morning America, The Today's Show, and

0:36:55.640 --> 0:36:59.440
<v Speaker 2>BT with Tavis Smalley, and here I am traveling around

0:36:59.520 --> 0:37:02.760
<v Speaker 2>and I'm speaking and I'm sharing. And then I remember

0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:05.320
<v Speaker 2>a couple of years ago went by and they formed

0:37:05.360 --> 0:37:08.000
<v Speaker 2>the board of directors for the Innocent Project in New York,

0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:11.680
<v Speaker 2>and they actually asked me would I like to sit

0:37:11.800 --> 0:37:15.120
<v Speaker 2>on the board of directors? And I was shocked. I

0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:18.080
<v Speaker 2>mean it was I was so honored to be asked.

0:37:18.719 --> 0:37:21.320
<v Speaker 2>I was the first designery in the in the country

0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:24.799
<v Speaker 2>to sit on the board like that on the Innocence Project. Well,

0:37:24.840 --> 0:37:26.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean this, this was it was. It was amazing

0:37:26.680 --> 0:37:29.319
<v Speaker 2>to me, uh, just to be able to sit there

0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:33.000
<v Speaker 2>and to share and to give my my input. You know,

0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:37.319
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I actually sometimes I felt overwhelmed being around such

0:37:37.400 --> 0:37:40.680
<v Speaker 2>powerful people, and I remember I was being so thankful.

0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:43.800
<v Speaker 2>I remember sometime driving down the street and just looking

0:37:43.840 --> 0:37:47.640
<v Speaker 2>at my house and and almost crying. You know, I

0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:50.080
<v Speaker 2>didn't cry, but I would feel like crying because I

0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:53.160
<v Speaker 2>was just so thankful that that people that I didn't

0:37:53.200 --> 0:37:56.319
<v Speaker 2>even know reached out to to try to help me.

0:37:56.680 --> 0:38:03.240
<v Speaker 2>The volunteers, the supporters, the state have, the attorneys, people

0:38:03.239 --> 0:38:05.680
<v Speaker 2>that I look now as being great people in my eyes,

0:38:05.680 --> 0:38:07.760
<v Speaker 2>who are not just great people, but they're my friends.

0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:11.880
<v Speaker 2>I look at Barrysheck and Peter Newfield and Maddie Delone

0:38:11.680 --> 0:38:15.720
<v Speaker 2>and the Jason Floms of the world as great people

0:38:15.760 --> 0:38:18.960
<v Speaker 2>that have made a difference. They have changed lives, that

0:38:18.960 --> 0:38:21.920
<v Speaker 2>are making difference into this judicial system that we have

0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:25.040
<v Speaker 2>in this country. That's not perfect. It's a great country,

0:38:25.080 --> 0:38:28.560
<v Speaker 2>but the system has some flaws because anything that man

0:38:28.600 --> 0:38:31.400
<v Speaker 2>may not be perfect. And so my life went on.

0:38:31.520 --> 0:38:36.200
<v Speaker 2>My life went on. I've been married twice. My first

0:38:36.200 --> 0:38:38.720
<v Speaker 2>marriage I end up getting a divorce, and my second marriage,

0:38:38.719 --> 0:38:40.800
<v Speaker 2>believe it or not, I'm actually going through a divorce.

0:38:42.040 --> 0:38:44.720
<v Speaker 1>But hey, I'm free. I'm free.

0:38:45.480 --> 0:38:48.520
<v Speaker 2>I've been at my job now at the Transportation Agency

0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:53.400
<v Speaker 2>with Martyn Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authorities for nineteen years.

0:38:53.680 --> 0:38:56.279
<v Speaker 2>I could probably retire in another year if I want to.

0:38:56.600 --> 0:38:59.640
<v Speaker 2>And I still do a little a few speaking engagements,

0:39:00.120 --> 0:39:03.359
<v Speaker 2>travel here and there and share my story. As you said,

0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:06.160
<v Speaker 2>I did write a book called Exit the Freedom, which

0:39:06.200 --> 0:39:08.799
<v Speaker 2>I tell people is not just a physical exit, but

0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:12.040
<v Speaker 2>it's a spiritual exit also, And so my freedom came

0:39:12.560 --> 0:39:15.880
<v Speaker 2>even actually before I walked through those doors. I felt

0:39:15.920 --> 0:39:18.920
<v Speaker 2>free on the inside and that meant a lot. And

0:39:19.040 --> 0:39:21.120
<v Speaker 2>that's why I was able to forgive and let go

0:39:21.440 --> 0:39:23.360
<v Speaker 2>and move on with my life, which was one of

0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:25.680
<v Speaker 2>the most important things that I could do, was take

0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:29.040
<v Speaker 2>control by forgiving and letting go through the power of

0:39:29.120 --> 0:39:33.000
<v Speaker 2>God and saying thank you, thank you for this opportunity

0:39:33.200 --> 0:39:36.960
<v Speaker 2>to the people that touched my life and made it possible.

0:39:37.320 --> 0:39:39.040
<v Speaker 1>And here I am now. I live, I have a

0:39:39.120 --> 0:39:40.280
<v Speaker 1>nice home. Jason.

0:39:40.680 --> 0:39:44.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, I got three dogs, my daughter lives with me,

0:39:44.600 --> 0:39:48.320
<v Speaker 2>and I got a sports car, and I don't I

0:39:48.360 --> 0:39:51.120
<v Speaker 2>don't ride motorcycles anymore. I rode motorcycles for years. I

0:39:51.160 --> 0:39:54.319
<v Speaker 2>love motorcycles, but I actually gave it up this year

0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:57.280
<v Speaker 2>in January and that's that's this is my life.

0:39:57.320 --> 0:40:00.560
<v Speaker 1>I I'm very very m beautiful.

0:40:00.760 --> 0:40:03.239
<v Speaker 5>Uh it's a beautiful ending. It's not an ending, but

0:40:03.280 --> 0:40:05.440
<v Speaker 5>it's a beautiful phase that you're in, I guess you

0:40:05.480 --> 0:40:07.680
<v Speaker 5>could say, with the with the three dogs and the

0:40:07.760 --> 0:40:12.000
<v Speaker 5>daughter and the and you. And it's like, uh, it

0:40:12.120 --> 0:40:14.600
<v Speaker 5>really does put a smile on my face thinking about

0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:18.840
<v Speaker 5>how how you've been able to you know, persevere and

0:40:19.239 --> 0:40:23.279
<v Speaker 5>overcome and and really triumph and build this wonderful life

0:40:23.320 --> 0:40:28.120
<v Speaker 5>for yourself. Before we wrap up, Calvin, I'm actually remembering, Uh,

0:40:28.320 --> 0:40:30.440
<v Speaker 5>you and I shared the stage one time at an

0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:33.439
<v Speaker 5>and it is Project event and this was right after

0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:37.440
<v Speaker 5>you had gone to Aspen, Colorado and you told the story.

0:40:37.480 --> 0:40:39.120
<v Speaker 5>Do you remember that story?

0:40:39.840 --> 0:40:40.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh?

0:40:40.200 --> 0:40:44.080
<v Speaker 1>Which one the one when when you and yeah, you

0:40:44.120 --> 0:40:45.480
<v Speaker 1>can remember, I remember.

0:40:47.640 --> 0:40:51.360
<v Speaker 2>I really yeah, I love to tell that story because that,

0:40:51.440 --> 0:40:54.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, that was one of the highlights since I've

0:40:54.239 --> 0:40:54.680
<v Speaker 2>been free.

0:40:54.880 --> 0:40:56.640
<v Speaker 1>That was one of the highlights.

0:40:56.960 --> 0:40:58.640
<v Speaker 2>Is that is at the top, I mean next to

0:40:58.760 --> 0:41:02.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, my daughter being barn and these events like

0:41:02.120 --> 0:41:04.880
<v Speaker 2>that which are very special because uh, you know, but

0:41:05.040 --> 0:41:07.760
<v Speaker 2>this this this was I remember I had a speaking

0:41:07.840 --> 0:41:11.839
<v Speaker 2>engagement in Aspen, Colorado. Okay, never been to Asspen, never

0:41:11.880 --> 0:41:14.920
<v Speaker 2>been to Colorado, never been skinned before in my life.

0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:17.000
<v Speaker 2>And I'm just I'm just planning to go there for

0:41:17.040 --> 0:41:20.000
<v Speaker 2>a couple of days. I remember, Uh, you and I

0:41:20.040 --> 0:41:23.080
<v Speaker 2>we spoke and you said, you said, Calvin, you can't

0:41:23.080 --> 0:41:25.000
<v Speaker 2>go to Aspen just for a couple of days and

0:41:25.040 --> 0:41:28.279
<v Speaker 2>not ski. You hold up, let me let me, let me,

0:41:28.360 --> 0:41:29.560
<v Speaker 2>let me take care of something. Let me make a

0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:31.759
<v Speaker 2>phone call. Next thing I know, you called me back

0:41:31.800 --> 0:41:34.440
<v Speaker 2>and you say, hey, you know, Calvin, you know you're

0:41:34.440 --> 0:41:36.520
<v Speaker 2>gonna stay there for for almost a week, you know,

0:41:36.640 --> 0:41:38.960
<v Speaker 2>some more, a couple of extra days, and I'm gonna

0:41:39.000 --> 0:41:42.239
<v Speaker 2>have somebody who's gonna get in touch with you, and

0:41:42.400 --> 0:41:45.279
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna go skin. And sure enough, I went out

0:41:45.320 --> 0:41:48.600
<v Speaker 2>there and a guy came and he introduced himself and said,

0:41:48.719 --> 0:41:51.279
<v Speaker 2>I'm here on behalf of Jason Flom. He took me

0:41:51.440 --> 0:41:53.640
<v Speaker 2>uh and brought me some ski gear and so forth,

0:41:54.000 --> 0:41:56.680
<v Speaker 2>and then we went to the uh with skin and

0:41:56.880 --> 0:41:59.600
<v Speaker 2>I had a private instructor, and I remember what the

0:41:59.600 --> 0:42:03.440
<v Speaker 2>private instructor he. Uh. He kept taking me back and

0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:06.520
<v Speaker 2>forth on the baby slope because this is my first

0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:09.040
<v Speaker 2>time ever skinning in my life. But I'm loving it.

0:42:09.440 --> 0:42:12.880
<v Speaker 2>And so the second day, I went, skin, I'm begging

0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:14.720
<v Speaker 2>this guy to take me to the top of the mountain.

0:42:15.080 --> 0:42:16.799
<v Speaker 2>But he's you know, he's like, man, this is just

0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:19.160
<v Speaker 2>your second day's skin, I'm not going to take you

0:42:19.200 --> 0:42:21.239
<v Speaker 2>to the top of the mountain. I said, you got

0:42:21.239 --> 0:42:22.640
<v Speaker 2>to take me to the top of the mountain. I said,

0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:24.120
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if I ever do this again in

0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:26.880
<v Speaker 2>my life. I said, this is this. I want to

0:42:26.920 --> 0:42:28.879
<v Speaker 2>go to the top of the mountain. And at that time,

0:42:28.920 --> 0:42:31.799
<v Speaker 2>I used to ride sport bikes, and I had sport bikes.

0:42:31.840 --> 0:42:34.320
<v Speaker 2>They should go zero to sixty in two seconds. And

0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:37.200
<v Speaker 2>so I'm telling this guy, said, hey, hey, man, I

0:42:37.280 --> 0:42:40.000
<v Speaker 2>ride a motorcyculd have go zero to sixty in two seconds. Now,

0:42:40.160 --> 0:42:41.840
<v Speaker 2>if I can do that, you could take me to

0:42:41.920 --> 0:42:43.759
<v Speaker 2>the top of the mountain. And so I went to

0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:46.280
<v Speaker 2>the top of the mountain and I started coming down

0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:48.239
<v Speaker 2>and when I first took off, I hit one of them.

0:42:48.280 --> 0:42:49.840
<v Speaker 2>I guess I was on one of them slopes. I

0:42:49.880 --> 0:42:52.359
<v Speaker 2>guess it was one of the higher degrees, and I fell,

0:42:53.520 --> 0:42:56.080
<v Speaker 2>but I got right back up, and then I said, okay,

0:42:56.239 --> 0:42:57.719
<v Speaker 2>I got it. This time I got to keep zig

0:42:57.800 --> 0:43:00.239
<v Speaker 2>zagging to slow myself down, and so I got up

0:43:00.520 --> 0:43:03.080
<v Speaker 2>and I kept zig zagging back and forth going down

0:43:03.080 --> 0:43:05.520
<v Speaker 2>the slope. And then when I got to the point

0:43:05.560 --> 0:43:08.960
<v Speaker 2>where I could see the bottom, I turned straight and

0:43:09.000 --> 0:43:11.759
<v Speaker 2>I just started flying. And then I can hear the

0:43:11.800 --> 0:43:14.720
<v Speaker 2>guy that instruct it behind me, hollering. He behind me, hollering,

0:43:14.960 --> 0:43:18.080
<v Speaker 2>slow down, slow down, slow down. Now I'm just flying

0:43:18.120 --> 0:43:20.160
<v Speaker 2>down the slope having a great I got the biggest

0:43:20.160 --> 0:43:22.040
<v Speaker 2>smile on my face from ear to ear.

0:43:22.320 --> 0:43:24.399
<v Speaker 1>And I get to the bottom and I don't fall.

0:43:24.719 --> 0:43:28.160
<v Speaker 2>I spend sideways and I stop, you know, and he's

0:43:28.239 --> 0:43:29.640
<v Speaker 2>behind me just shaking his head.

0:43:30.080 --> 0:43:31.279
<v Speaker 1>And I'll never forget that.

0:43:31.560 --> 0:43:33.880
<v Speaker 2>I'm so thankful to you, Jason, for giving me the

0:43:33.960 --> 0:43:37.120
<v Speaker 2>opportunity to go skin. I haven't been skinned since, but

0:43:37.560 --> 0:43:39.640
<v Speaker 2>that one time, I'll never fundy.

0:43:39.760 --> 0:43:42.080
<v Speaker 5>I actually remember, if I remember, correct me. It was

0:43:42.080 --> 0:43:43.600
<v Speaker 5>a long time ago, but I remember when you gave

0:43:43.600 --> 0:43:46.480
<v Speaker 5>that speech and you said, you said, he says, I'm

0:43:46.480 --> 0:43:47.919
<v Speaker 5>not taking you to talk about it, and you said

0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:50.759
<v Speaker 5>to him, it's slightly different than what you just told

0:43:50.800 --> 0:43:52.640
<v Speaker 5>me now. But I don't know which version is correct.

0:43:52.640 --> 0:43:56.120
<v Speaker 5>But you said, I survived sixteen years in a maximum

0:43:56.160 --> 0:43:59.120
<v Speaker 5>security prison. Take me to the top of the mountain,

0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:00.960
<v Speaker 5>and I was like, oh.

0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:03.960
<v Speaker 1>Man, yeah, yeah, I did. I said that too.

0:44:04.080 --> 0:44:07.600
<v Speaker 5>So that's a great story and I'm glad it just

0:44:07.640 --> 0:44:10.439
<v Speaker 5>came back to me. It must have been fifteen years

0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:13.000
<v Speaker 5>ago when I heard you tell that story. But Calvin,

0:44:13.120 --> 0:44:17.879
<v Speaker 5>we have a tradition at Wrong for Conviction, which our

0:44:17.920 --> 0:44:21.040
<v Speaker 5>listeners are very familiar with by now. I think it's

0:44:21.080 --> 0:44:23.040
<v Speaker 5>a lot of people's favorite part of the show. I

0:44:23.160 --> 0:44:25.080
<v Speaker 5>know it's my favorite part of the show. And that's

0:44:25.120 --> 0:44:28.160
<v Speaker 5>the part of the show where I stopped talking. And

0:44:28.280 --> 0:44:31.000
<v Speaker 5>as we wrap up and before I thank you one

0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:33.600
<v Speaker 5>final time for being here, I just want to leave

0:44:33.640 --> 0:44:36.440
<v Speaker 5>the mic on and ask you if you have any

0:44:36.520 --> 0:44:39.719
<v Speaker 5>final thoughts that you want to share with our audience.

0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:41.360
<v Speaker 1>It's all yours.

0:44:43.280 --> 0:44:46.480
<v Speaker 2>First of all, I just like to say that I'm

0:44:46.600 --> 0:44:50.440
<v Speaker 2>very thankful. I like to thank my mother and my father,

0:44:50.480 --> 0:44:53.720
<v Speaker 2>who no longer here. My father passed away in June

0:44:53.760 --> 0:44:57.080
<v Speaker 2>or this year, and that was a little bit rough

0:44:57.160 --> 0:44:59.960
<v Speaker 2>because I got to spend a lot of time with them.

0:45:00.200 --> 0:45:03.279
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I are very we were very close, and

0:45:03.400 --> 0:45:05.960
<v Speaker 2>my mother and I we were close. She passed away

0:45:06.000 --> 0:45:09.480
<v Speaker 2>back in two thousand, but they instilled in me a strength.

0:45:10.600 --> 0:45:12.960
<v Speaker 2>I used to always say, you're from good stock, You're

0:45:12.960 --> 0:45:15.600
<v Speaker 2>from good stock, and he gave me that inner strength,

0:45:16.080 --> 0:45:18.560
<v Speaker 2>and that's what helped me when I was in prison.

0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:21.920
<v Speaker 2>Despite everything, I will not let prison break me.

0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:22.880
<v Speaker 1>In prison with.

0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Design is designed to tear you down, destroy you, and

0:45:26.680 --> 0:45:29.560
<v Speaker 2>break you into what they want you to be, and

0:45:29.560 --> 0:45:31.879
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't let them do it. I never allowed them

0:45:31.920 --> 0:45:36.520
<v Speaker 2>to break me. I stayed positive. There were times when

0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:39.520
<v Speaker 2>it was a little bit rough, but all in all,

0:45:40.040 --> 0:45:42.719
<v Speaker 2>you know, I believe that one day that even with

0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:44.919
<v Speaker 2>the flicker of hope was just about to go out,

0:45:45.120 --> 0:45:48.040
<v Speaker 2>that candle was about to be distinguished. I still had

0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:50.279
<v Speaker 2>that flicker of hope that one day that I will

0:45:50.320 --> 0:45:52.839
<v Speaker 2>walk out of free man. And I actually said that

0:45:52.960 --> 0:45:55.960
<v Speaker 2>on the day of my sentences, that I believe that

0:45:56.000 --> 0:45:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the truth will come out one day. I can say

0:45:58.960 --> 0:46:01.200
<v Speaker 2>thank you all day long because there's so much to think.

0:46:01.280 --> 0:46:04.440
<v Speaker 2>And those who I haven't even mentioned by name, I'm

0:46:04.480 --> 0:46:08.839
<v Speaker 2>thankful to them because, uh, there's volunteers that I don't know,

0:46:08.960 --> 0:46:12.000
<v Speaker 2>the supporters that I don't know. There's some staff members

0:46:12.040 --> 0:46:16.080
<v Speaker 2>that I don't know up at the Innocent Project. But

0:46:17.360 --> 0:46:19.680
<v Speaker 2>the project has grown so much. It was so small

0:46:19.719 --> 0:46:22.279
<v Speaker 2>when I first got out. Now it's a it's a

0:46:22.360 --> 0:46:25.040
<v Speaker 2>it's a nation. Guy has a national network, has projects

0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:29.000
<v Speaker 2>all across the world, and it's it's it's really unbelievable.

0:46:29.040 --> 0:46:30.719
<v Speaker 2>I got a chance this year to go to the

0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:34.080
<v Speaker 2>UH to the network conference and to see how it

0:46:34.160 --> 0:46:36.919
<v Speaker 2>has grown and to see that there are people there

0:46:36.920 --> 0:46:41.359
<v Speaker 2>from from different countries, and it was I'm just I'm

0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:43.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm glad to be a part of this. This this

0:46:43.680 --> 0:46:48.040
<v Speaker 2>this amazing movement that's making a difference and changing laws

0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:50.960
<v Speaker 2>and not only changing laws, but helping people to get

0:46:50.960 --> 0:46:54.120
<v Speaker 2>the life back started all over again. And that's basically,

0:46:54.520 --> 0:46:57.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, all that I can say right now is thank.

0:46:57.239 --> 0:46:59.800
<v Speaker 5>You, Calvin. I want to thank you for being so

0:47:00.120 --> 0:47:03.400
<v Speaker 5>to a great advocate and just such a great example

0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:07.319
<v Speaker 5>of human potential. And the work that we do is

0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:11.920
<v Speaker 5>you know, because of people like you, and you know,

0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:15.240
<v Speaker 5>we'll never stop. We're going to keep fighting and fighting

0:47:15.320 --> 0:47:18.040
<v Speaker 5>and fighting until there's no more fighting left to be done.

0:47:19.160 --> 0:47:21.520
<v Speaker 5>And so again, Calvin, I just want to thank you

0:47:21.600 --> 0:47:25.880
<v Speaker 5>for sharing your story here on Wrongful Conviction. I wish

0:47:25.920 --> 0:47:28.400
<v Speaker 5>you all the best. I want to thank in addition

0:47:28.520 --> 0:47:30.960
<v Speaker 5>your the ski instructor, the one that the two Day

0:47:30.960 --> 0:47:34.960
<v Speaker 5>Ski instructor Chuck Kessler for keeping you alive in spite

0:47:34.960 --> 0:47:37.640
<v Speaker 5>of the fact that you made it difficult for him,

0:47:37.840 --> 0:47:41.239
<v Speaker 5>and yeah, and anything. The last question I want to

0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:43.560
<v Speaker 5>ask you is if people want to book you for speaking,

0:47:44.880 --> 0:47:47.080
<v Speaker 5>are you still doing that? Would you like to share

0:47:47.120 --> 0:47:49.399
<v Speaker 5>an email address or a website or anything like that.

0:47:50.880 --> 0:47:55.440
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's my email address is e x I t

0:47:56.560 --> 0:48:01.719
<v Speaker 2>O f R E e x oh free e x

0:48:01.840 --> 0:48:06.759
<v Speaker 2>I t O f R E E at yahoo dot com. Uh,

0:48:06.880 --> 0:48:11.360
<v Speaker 2>feel free to email me anytime. I'm still doing speaking engagements.

0:48:11.400 --> 0:48:15.600
<v Speaker 2>And yes, I'm available off days on Wednesday, Thursday and Friday.

0:48:15.719 --> 0:48:17.680
<v Speaker 1>I do work. I do have a job, but I

0:48:18.280 --> 0:48:19.880
<v Speaker 1>usually can fit it in audio.

0:48:19.880 --> 0:48:23.400
<v Speaker 5>So email Calvin for bookings or for advice on phishing

0:48:23.560 --> 0:48:24.920
<v Speaker 5>or anything else you can think of.

0:48:25.000 --> 0:48:26.600
<v Speaker 1>Maybe he'll even give you a ski lesson.

0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:29.120
<v Speaker 5>Calvin, thank you again.

0:48:28.880 --> 0:48:29.560
<v Speaker 1>For being here.

0:48:29.760 --> 0:48:32.759
<v Speaker 5>I look forward to seeing you again soon. And to

0:48:32.920 --> 0:48:37.120
<v Speaker 5>our audience, thank you read the book too, Exit to Freedom,

0:48:37.400 --> 0:48:40.440
<v Speaker 5>Calvin Johnson, Exit to Freedom, don't forget to order that

0:48:41.400 --> 0:48:44.840
<v Speaker 5>and uh, I'm gonna order one myself today too. So

0:48:46.200 --> 0:48:49.080
<v Speaker 5>once again, thank you to everyone for tuning in. This

0:48:49.239 --> 0:48:53.200
<v Speaker 5>has been a very special episode with my friend and

0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:55.200
<v Speaker 5>Xannerie Calvin Johnson.

0:48:55.280 --> 0:49:02.600
<v Speaker 1>Thank you, Jason, don't forget to.

0:49:02.520 --> 0:49:06.240
<v Speaker 5>Give us a fantastic review. Wherever you get your podcasts.

0:49:05.680 --> 0:49:06.600
<v Speaker 1>It really helps.

0:49:07.000 --> 0:49:09.880
<v Speaker 5>And I'm a proud donor to the Ennosnce Project and

0:49:09.920 --> 0:49:12.640
<v Speaker 5>I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

0:49:12.640 --> 0:49:16.640
<v Speaker 5>important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

0:49:16.719 --> 0:49:19.719
<v Speaker 5>to innosonsproject dot org to learn how to donate and

0:49:19.760 --> 0:49:22.920
<v Speaker 5>get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

0:49:22.960 --> 0:49:25.680
<v Speaker 5>Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

0:49:25.719 --> 0:49:29.200
<v Speaker 5>by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

0:49:29.239 --> 0:49:32.359
<v Speaker 5>to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

0:49:32.400 --> 0:49:36.720
<v Speaker 5>Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm

0:49:36.920 --> 0:49:40.080
<v Speaker 5>is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association

0:49:40.400 --> 0:49:43.239
<v Speaker 5>with Signal Company Number one