1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,400 Speaker 1: Hey, please take a second and leave us a review 2 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,279 Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen to the podcast. 3 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:11,039 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot. Hey, welcome to sign Stuff and production 4 00:00:11,200 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio. I'm Hoar hitch hamp and today we're asking 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: the question can you upload your brain to a computer? 6 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: Is it actually possible to digitize your mind and who 7 00:00:22,280 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: you are and have it run on a robot or 8 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,159 Speaker 1: a hard drive. Would it be a way for you 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: to lift forever or maybe a way to copy yourself. 10 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 1: We'll talk to three experts about this, a mathematician who 11 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 1: focuses on emerging technologies, a neuroscientist who studies brain connections, 12 00:00:40,080 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 1: and a philosopher who's grappled with the question should we 13 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: upload our brains? So don't pull the plug and get 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: ready to live inside our electronic mind as we answer 15 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:54,959 Speaker 1: the question can you upload your brain to a computer? 16 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 2: Hey? 17 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: Everyone, So today we're talking to three people, a mathematician, 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: a neuroscientist, and a philosopher. And they're not going to 19 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: walk into a bar, but if each spend a lot 20 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: of time thinking about this idea of uploading your brain. 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: We'll start with the mathematician, Professor Ole Hackstrom. Here's what 22 00:01:24,640 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 1: he does. Well, thank you doctor Hagstrom for joining us. 23 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,520 Speaker 3: Thank you glad to be here. So most of my 24 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 3: every year has been as a mathematician, but since about 25 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 3: twenty ten I've gradually become more interested in questions about 26 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: emerging technologists and global risk. 27 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 1: Can you tell us where you work. 28 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 3: I'm at Chalmers University of Technology in Sweden. 29 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to start with the concept of mind uploading. 30 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: Can you tell us what it is for those of 31 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,120 Speaker 1: us that I have never heard of it before. 32 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 3: So the idea of mind uploading, which is like a 33 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 3: hypothetic future technology, is that if you make a simulation 34 00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 3: of the human brain, and you make it refined enough 35 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 3: and accurate enough, it will be as good as the 36 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 3: real thing. And the hope is that if it's good enough, 37 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 3: we can use this technology to migrate over to machines. 38 00:02:21,560 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 3: Our flash and blood bodies have all kinds of defects 39 00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 3: after one hundred years, so so we tend to disintegrate 40 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 3: and die. And at least some people hope that uploading 41 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 3: technology could need to much longer and perhaps in effect 42 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 3: unbounded life. 43 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: Wow, do you know anything about the origins of this idea. 44 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: When it started, when people started thinking about it. 45 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 3: It started in science fiction. Twentieth century science fiction writer 46 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 3: Stanislav lam certainly wrote about it, and another person who 47 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 3: helped popularize this concept was a philosopher, Derek Parfitt, who 48 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: thought very hard about a similar concept, which is called teleportation. 49 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:09,880 Speaker 1: Like you're faxing yourself to another planet exactly, all right, 50 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: that's the basic idea. Do somehow simulate our brains in 51 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:19,359 Speaker 1: a computer to escape our soft, perishable bodies. The next 52 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,880 Speaker 1: question is, of course, how would this work? What are 53 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: the possible technologies that people have thought about doing this? 54 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: Mind uploading? 55 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 3: I should emphasize that this is not something we can 56 00:03:32,760 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 3: expect in the next decade or so. I think that 57 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:39,120 Speaker 3: this is probably at least two or three decades away, 58 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 3: and maybe even further. There are several steps involved in uploading. First, 59 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,800 Speaker 3: you need to scan the brain in extreme detail, and 60 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 3: the main concept there is that somehow you freeze the 61 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 3: brain and you cut it up in thin, thin, thin slices, 62 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 3: and then you scan. 63 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:57,560 Speaker 1: Each slice whoa. 64 00:03:57,640 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 3: And then you have to somehow organize all the information 65 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 3: you have gotten out of this and use that on 66 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 3: the machine. That is then meant to run your mind. 67 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: That would be an example of so called destructive uploading, 68 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,600 Speaker 3: which requires that your brain is destroyed. 69 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems you really have to commit to. 70 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 3: It absolutely, and many people might hesitate about that. 71 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: So that's option one. Freeze your brain, slice it really thin, 72 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 1: scan each slice, and then reconstruct the three D structure 73 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: of your brain, all the neurons and how they're connected 74 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:39,159 Speaker 1: to each other. Of course the problem with that is 75 00:04:39,160 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 1: that you have to freeze your brain and slice it. 76 00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: Fortunately there's option number two. 77 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 3: But the more ambitious concept if you're worry about having 78 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 3: your brain destroyed, is the idea of non destructive uploading. 79 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 3: So that requires figuring out how to do this scanning 80 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,359 Speaker 3: thing with out destroying the brain. That would be to 81 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 3: have nano robots somehow, maybe through the blood stream, enter 82 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:11,239 Speaker 3: the brain and photograph and otherwise record what is going 83 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 3: on there in the brain. 84 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: WHOA, I thought you were going to say something like fMRI, 85 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: like some kind of magnetic scanner somehow reads yourselves. Is 86 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: that a possibility? 87 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 3: I don't know. If that were doable, then that sounds 88 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 3: less invasive. 89 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,080 Speaker 1: So then idia would be nano robots who'd go into 90 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 1: your blood stream. It would get into your brain. And 91 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: then how do they record all your neurons. 92 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 3: That's something that has to be figured out, but some 93 00:05:40,440 --> 00:05:45,680 Speaker 3: sort of electromagnetic recording device, and then maybe they can 94 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 3: transfer this information the radio link or. 95 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:54,839 Speaker 1: Something that's uption number two nanobots. We'll talk about other 96 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: ways to scan or capture who you are later in 97 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: the program, but for now, that's pretty good. 98 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: Okay. 99 00:06:01,520 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: Once you scan your brain, what's thanks? Okay. And then 100 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: once you scan your brain, you presumably have a picture 101 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 1: of how all your neurons are connected to each other. 102 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,560 Speaker 3: Right, a kind of three D picture. But the key 103 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: feature is that it's going to contain all the information 104 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,839 Speaker 3: about connectedness between synapses and so on and so forth, 105 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 3: enough to reconstruct the whole brain state. And then yeah, 106 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 3: the brain processes, the thinking and so on started on 107 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 3: the computer. 108 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: Fascinating. Okay. So, now, once you have a bottel of 109 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: your brain, then you would create a new brain, or 110 00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: you would stimulate one in the computer. 111 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 3: The idea would be to run this on a computer, 112 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 3: and if this simulation is faithful enough, some people hope 113 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: that this would actually be as good as having a 114 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 3: new brain. Wow, in a sense, even better. If you 115 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 3: are the kind of person who valuesness, maybe getting your 116 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 3: robot body as a replacemant for your present and highly imperfect, 117 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 3: presumably flesh and blood body. Or alternatively, if you want 118 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 3: to live in maybe other environments than the physical environment 119 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 3: that you maybe not maybe you could migrate to virtual 120 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 3: worlds on some really big computer that can host maybe 121 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: emulations of you and your loved ones and fans and 122 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 3: everybody who wants to join, could maybe live in a 123 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 3: society on this machine. It's the kind of technology that 124 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 3: we don't know if it's doable, but we also don't 125 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 3: have like physical limits that show that it's impossible, so 126 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 3: it may be worth thinking about. 127 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: All right, So that's uploading your brain and simulating it 128 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: in a computer, and you can imagine there are several 129 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: reasons you might want to do this. Maybe you're near 130 00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 1: the end of your life and this could be a 131 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: way for you to live longer, maybe even forever. But 132 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 1: according to doctor Hagstrom, there are other things you could 133 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: do with this technology, starting with cloning yourself. 134 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:13,920 Speaker 3: In a sense, a more radical thing you might do 135 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:19,120 Speaker 3: is that once you have this emulation running on the machine, 136 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,000 Speaker 3: it's an easy thing to copy it, so you can 137 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 3: have several emulations of yourself running on the machine. 138 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: WHOA, You could clone yourself basically. 139 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 3: Yes, And it's a much more precise thing than just 140 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: genetic cloning, because if you would, through genetics create clowns 141 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 3: on yourself, well, that would be persons who would share 142 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 3: your g you know, but not your upbringing and education 143 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 3: and so on. So they might be very different people, 144 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 3: just like identical twins typically somewhat different people. But in 145 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 3: this case you get a pair of ultra identical twins, 146 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 3: much much more identical than the identical twins we have now. 147 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 3: And each one of these simulations would feel like they argue, 148 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 3: So this would give rise to maybe even legal questions 149 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 3: about who has ownership to your possessions and if you're married, 150 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 3: who gets yourselves? 151 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure my spouse can handle more than 152 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: one of me. She already gets frustrated enough with one 153 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: of me. 154 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 3: So it's quite a far out scenario, and it's not 155 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: easy to figure out how we would organize a society 156 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 3: where we have easy access to this uploading technology. 157 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, once you're in the cloud, you could copy yourself, 158 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:50,679 Speaker 1: and your copies could live in different robots or in 159 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: different virtual worlds, although this opens up some logistical problems. 160 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: And I give one other example of a legal issue 161 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 3: that might arise. 162 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, please, namely if. 163 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 3: At this future time we still value the idea of 164 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 3: democracy and every person has one vote, and an argument 165 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 3: should be made that emulated minds should have the same 166 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 3: rights as democratic citizens as biological minds, because they are 167 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:25,559 Speaker 3: as capable as us, and they have the same canceled 168 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 3: feelings and so forth, so they should really have the 169 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 3: whole package of human rights. But if there's an election 170 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 3: coming up and you really root for this candidate rather 171 00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,360 Speaker 3: than the other candidate, what is going to prevent you 172 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,679 Speaker 3: then from making a thousand emulated copies on you and 173 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 3: the collective of you will get one thousand votes in 174 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 3: this election. How would you construct a system of democracy 175 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 3: which can function in a world with emulated minds without 176 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 3: having these manipulations of the system. 177 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Yeah, that would probably blow the minds 178 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: of our current politicians, who can't even handle voting by mail. 179 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 3: Right, we can do it and Sweden, but I hear 180 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 3: you have some problems in the United States. 181 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: Yes, democracy will get kind of sticky once people start 182 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: uploading and copying their brains. I mean, just think about 183 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: how many votes you have to count. 184 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 3: When coppying is cheap. I don't know what will happen 185 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:31,560 Speaker 3: to the world population. I can imagine that we might 186 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:36,079 Speaker 3: quickly go from the billions to the trillions or quadrillions 187 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 3: of people. 188 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: Do you think it'll be cheaper to run a person 189 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: on a computer than to have them be alive. 190 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. One reason for thinking so is that we have 191 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: this very rapid development in computer efficiency, which doesn't seem 192 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 3: to be about to start. 193 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Although on the plus that you wouldn't need healthcare 194 00:11:55,600 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 1: only tech support. Hey, today's IT technicians could be tomorrow's doctors. 195 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: Another interesting application of uploading your brain is space travel. 196 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: There is really strong reason to replace these bodies that 197 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 3: we now have that are extremely ill suited for space 198 00:12:19,440 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 3: travel by robotic bodies, and uploading technology could achieve that 199 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 3: could be a case sep in conquering the galaxy and 200 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:30,679 Speaker 3: other galaxies. 201 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: This could be one of the positives of uploading your brain. 202 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:38,359 Speaker 1: If we could colonize space with our emulations of brains. 203 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 3: Yes, potentially the biggest positives. 204 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:45,800 Speaker 1: Yes, we could upload our brains and explore the cosmos. 205 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: Your mind could live inside a spacecraft and be powered 206 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: for thousands of years by a solar or nuclear battery, 207 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: and you could travel and get to distant stars and 208 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 1: explore the other side of the galaxy, or visit this 209 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,839 Speaker 1: super massive black hole at the center of it. Or 210 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 1: you could even imagine traveling to the edge of the universe. 211 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,200 Speaker 1: All right, The last question I asked doctor Hagstrom was 212 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: what would it mean if we could do this? What 213 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: do you think it says that uploading your mind is possible? 214 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,080 Speaker 1: What does it say about us as humans? 215 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 3: Perhaps if this is true, then it gives reason for 216 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 3: us to be a bit more humble in realizing that 217 00:13:28,640 --> 00:13:34,960 Speaker 3: our present kind of existence is not as uniquely tied 218 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: to our present bodies as we thought it was. 219 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: The idea that we can be copied. She tells that 220 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:42,439 Speaker 1: we're replaceable. 221 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 3: I guess, which is certainly worrying thought. And I think 222 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:51,320 Speaker 3: that it's something we should ask ourselves very carefully before 223 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,439 Speaker 3: we launch this technology, because if we don't think about 224 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 3: these questions carefully and arrive at the solution of how 225 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 3: to design in the society with uploaded minds that makes 226 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 3: us happy and satisfied, we might end up with something 227 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: that we would then deeply regret. 228 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: Okay, that's a pretty good overview of what the technology is, 229 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: how it might work, and what we could use it for. 230 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 1: The next question is can it actually be done. We'll 231 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: dig into the nitty gritty details of scanning your brain 232 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 1: with a neuroscientist, and then later we'll talk to an 233 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: expert about whether an uploaded you would still be you 234 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: stay with us, we'll be right back. Welcome back. Okay, 235 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 1: we're talking about uploading your brain to a computer, and 236 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: so far we've learned what that means and what you 237 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: could do with it. Next, we're going to talk to 238 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: Professor Dwayne Godwin, a neuroscientist at Wake Forest University, about 239 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 1: whether he thinks any of this is actually possible. Doctor 240 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: Godwin and I wrote a book together called Out of 241 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 1: Your Mind, in which we explore this and other fascinating 242 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: questions about the brain. Here's what he said, what's the 243 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: current state of the art in terms of scanning your brain? 244 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: What kind of information into what resolution can we do that? 245 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 3: Right? 246 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 4: So, one of the ways that we can do it 247 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 4: on the structural side is something called ultra high field MRI. 248 00:15:30,320 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 4: There's this giant magnet that's alternating a magnetic field, and 249 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 4: it's able to compose a functional image as well as 250 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 4: the structural image of the brain. And it's able to 251 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 4: do that at a pretty high resolutions. It can resolve 252 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 4: the living brain at submillimeter detail, so less than a millimeter, 253 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 4: but not at the level of synapses are on the 254 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 4: level of microns and nanometers. That's the level at which 255 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 4: synapses and synaptic protein are operating. 256 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 1: I see you're not getting the details of like this 257 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: neuron is sending a signal to that neuron. Right, that's 258 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: too small. 259 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 4: That's right, that's too small. 260 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: Do you think that can get better over time? Like? 261 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:14,040 Speaker 1: Are people trying to make that micro level fMRI? 262 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, everything gets better all the time. I guess the 263 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 4: question is is the current state capable of doing what 264 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 4: you posed in your initial question? And I would say no, 265 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 4: at the moment, it's incapable of doing that. But can 266 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 4: you imagine that some day in the future there would 267 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 4: be you know, sufficiently strong magnets or ways to capture 268 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 4: that information. Yeah, sure, you could imagine that. It's just 269 00:16:39,920 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 4: that it's not here yet. 270 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: All right. That sounds promising. There's also the option of 271 00:16:46,600 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: slicing your brain. Would that work to capture who you are. 272 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 4: So there are methods where you can look at that 273 00:16:54,040 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 4: level of detail. Unfortunately, those methods require that you die. 274 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 4: We don't yet have wadys of looking at it without 275 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,239 Speaker 4: taking chunks of your brain out, essentially pickling them and 276 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 4: then slicing them into very very thin sections of brain 277 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 4: that we then aim an electron beam at in order 278 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 4: to look at the proteins that are in those very 279 00:17:18,160 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 4: fine level synapses. So yeah, it's in principle possible for 280 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 4: you to capture that level of detail from a human brain. 281 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 4: We do it from animal brains all the time. But 282 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 4: what you're getting is the instant after you had actually died. 283 00:17:34,840 --> 00:17:38,320 Speaker 4: So I don't think you want to be necessarily preserved 284 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 4: in that state, right. 285 00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, that would not be my preferred way to scan 286 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: my brain. And the problem here is also that you'd 287 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,879 Speaker 1: be scanning a not so fresh brain. Yes, Like the 288 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: process would have to be like I die and then 289 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 1: my brain is sliced. It has to be sliced right 290 00:17:57,760 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: away before it spoils. 291 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 4: Basically, yeah, it would take many hours most likely before 292 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 4: I could be placed into a state where my body 293 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,880 Speaker 4: could be preserved in order to be able to make 294 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 4: those fine sections of tissue. And even then it would 295 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 4: be after my brain had been deprived of oxygen for 296 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 4: a while. Things might not be looking so good inside 297 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 4: my old brain. So bringing me back might bring me 298 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 4: back to the moment of my demise, and I might 299 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 4: not be in such good shape. 300 00:18:27,160 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: Then you might be missing parts of the brain, like 301 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,520 Speaker 1: it might be a corrupted scan of your brain. 302 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, all right. 303 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: So you can't do any of this right now. But 304 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 1: as doctor Godwood mention, these are technical problems. You could 305 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,560 Speaker 1: imagine that in the future we could come up with 306 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: better fMRI technology or figure right away to perfectly slice 307 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: your brain without any of it going bad. The next 308 00:18:53,560 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: question I had for him was would it be enough? 309 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: Would a scan of your brain be sufficient to recreate 310 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: who you are? Well, let's talk a little bit about 311 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: the challenges here. Like, let's say I get an fMRI 312 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: down to where I can detect neurons and how they're 313 00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 1: connected to each other, basically the snapshot of the web 314 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: of the network in my brain of neurons. Is that 315 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 1: enough you think to recreate me in a computer? 316 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 4: Well, let's think about it this way. By an analogy. 317 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 4: Let's say you wanted to know how your computer worked. 318 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:28,320 Speaker 3: Okay, what if. 319 00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:31,400 Speaker 4: You could take the very best photograph and the very 320 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,439 Speaker 4: best scan of the structure of your computer right now, Okay, 321 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 4: down to the level of individual connections and logic gates 322 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 4: like the circuit. Yeah, like the circuit. Would you be 323 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 4: able to tell whether your computer was on social media 324 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 4: or running Microsoft Word versus some other thing that it 325 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 4: might be doing. So that there's kind of a difference 326 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 4: here between getting a good picture of the hardware of 327 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 4: the brain and the ability to understand what the brain 328 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:01,719 Speaker 4: is doing at any given moment. 329 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: What doctor Godwin is saying here is even if we 330 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: could scan your brain down to the molecular level, that 331 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: doesn't mean we understand how the brain works. Let's say 332 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,080 Speaker 1: I'm able to perfectly scan your brain and detect every 333 00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: neuron connection it's in abs Wait, I have all this 334 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: information about my brain, and let's say it's pretty intact. 335 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: Could I get a computer to run it? 336 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,200 Speaker 4: You know, it's always a mistake to say something can't 337 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 4: be done. The best I can say right now is 338 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 4: that we're not in a position to do that right now. 339 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 4: But with some of the new computer architectures and chip architectures. 340 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 4: You know, there are these things called neuromorphic chips. I 341 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 4: think we could probably run simulations at some point in 342 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 4: the future that will almost perfectly emulate a lot of 343 00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 4: the different states. 344 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 3: Of your brain. 345 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 4: And I think, you know, looking who knows ten one 346 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 4: hundred years into the future, when AI is actually able 347 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 4: to help us, not only mimic the brain, but all 348 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 4: so help us and tell us the things that need 349 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 4: to be done to improve resolution and computation, then yeah, 350 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 4: I could see these things happening in the future. 351 00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 1: I thought you were going to say that it was 352 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: not possible because we don't know all the processes that 353 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,800 Speaker 1: are happening at the synapse level and the neurons. We 354 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:19,639 Speaker 1: don't know yet how to create a simulation of the brain. 355 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 4: Well, I think that's correct that we don't yet know 356 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 4: how to do that, But I think your question was 357 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,640 Speaker 4: broader about will we ever be able to do that. 358 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 4: I'm an optimist about these things. I think there could 359 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 4: be at some point in the future a powerful enough computer, 360 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 4: enough computational power, enough understanding of how these different elements 361 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,360 Speaker 4: within the brain, the different connections are made, and how 362 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 4: information flows from one part of the brain to the 363 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 4: other that, yeah, you could run some sort of simulation 364 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 4: that is very much like you, but we're aways from that. 365 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: What doctor Godwin is saying here is that right now 366 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: we just don't yet fully understand how the brain works. 367 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,440 Speaker 1: But if doctor Godwin said, with more signs, we could 368 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: know all of this in the future. Until then, I 369 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 1: asked doctor Godwin about an alternate scenario, one in which 370 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:10,760 Speaker 1: you maybe don't have to scan all of your brain, 371 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: and that is using AI or artificial intelligence. Okay, next question, 372 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,359 Speaker 1: do you think you could train an AI to be. 373 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 4: You could do you train an AI to think like you? Well, 374 00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 4: I think that you could certainly train an AI to 375 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 4: follow you around, follow your movements, listen to your voice, 376 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 4: see what you see. Maybe you've written several books, you know, 377 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 4: the AI could train on that and make an astment 378 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 4: of what it would be like to have an AI 379 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,760 Speaker 4: Woge or an AI Dwyane. 380 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:45,119 Speaker 1: Okay, how about this sci fi scenario. What if I 381 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: create an AI that is conscious, that is like thinking 382 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: and is sentient, but it's sort of like a blank 383 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: version of a human, And then I can go, Okay, 384 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,959 Speaker 1: I make a copy of this and train it on Whoorge, 385 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:00,119 Speaker 1: so that it's basically like a sentient being trained to 386 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: be like Orge. 387 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, that's not a bad approach. And I wrote a 388 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 4: blog post some years ago where I was saying, well, 389 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 4: maybe this is a path because you know, there are 390 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 4: probably some aspects of how the brain works that are 391 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 4: common to almost everyone. So for example, walking walking is 392 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 4: a thing that people with two legs all do, and 393 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 4: that program is probably pretty consistent from one person to another. 394 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 4: So you could see stringing together a number of those 395 00:23:27,040 --> 00:23:30,639 Speaker 4: different things and then say, Okay, let's put that in 396 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 4: an android brain or body, and then let's just focus 397 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 4: on the thing that makes four hay or hay interesting. 398 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,919 Speaker 1: Meaning maybe you don't need to upload your whole brain, Like, 399 00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: maybe you don't need to scan every single synapse and 400 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 1: you're run in your brain just the parts that really 401 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:48,680 Speaker 1: make me who I am, so that we can then 402 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: program that or put that into a generic, hopefully better 403 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 1: looking and smarter, perversion of meat. 404 00:23:55,960 --> 00:24:00,639 Speaker 4: I mean, it's not an unreasonable idea, right, So yeah, yeah, 405 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 4: it might be that you don't need to upload your 406 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 4: whole brain. 407 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: You might only need to upload or train an AI 408 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:12,080 Speaker 1: on the parts that make you uniquely you. Okay, now 409 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: let's say that we could one day scan your brain 410 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: and run a pretty good simulation of it in a computer. 411 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: What's that program technically be alive? And more important, would 412 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: it actually be you? In other words, would any of 413 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: this actually work? When we come back, we're going to 414 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: tackle this question, and fair warning, it's going to get 415 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: very philosophical. Stay with us, we'll be right back. Hey, 416 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: welcome back. All right, we're talking about uploading your brain 417 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: to a computer, and so far we've learned what it is, 418 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: it could be useful, and whether a brain scientist thinks 419 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: it's possible. Next, we're going to answer the question would 420 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: this actually work. Let's say we could scan your brain 421 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: down to the synapse and maybe even the molecular level, 422 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,120 Speaker 1: and let's say we could get a computer to somehow 423 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: simulate your brain. Well, there are two very big questions 424 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: about what happens next, and these questions are mainly philosophical. 425 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 1: So to take us through this, I reached out to 426 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: Professor Qualtiero Piccinini. Well, thank you, doctor Piccinini for joining. 427 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 2: Us, Thank you for having me. I'm a philosophy professor 428 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 2: at University of Missouri. So I researched mostly philosophy of 429 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: mind and the mind sciences. 430 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: Okay, the first question we're going to tackle here is 431 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: whether the brain that you simulate in the computer has consciousness. Okay, 432 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:56,920 Speaker 1: what does that mean? 433 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 2: Means that it has a subjective experience, you know, like 434 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 2: real emotions that it feels, or visual or auditory perceptions 435 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 2: that it actually perceives, or thoughts that it can access 436 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 2: and tell you what they are from the inside, as 437 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: opposed to just you know, uttering the words. Sometimes philosophers 438 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 2: call this phenomenal consciousness or what it's like to be you. 439 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: All right. 440 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: Consciousness is a very tricky subject, one that we could 441 00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,320 Speaker 1: spend the whole episode talking about, but it's basically the 442 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: difference between the feeling that you have that you're a 443 00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,440 Speaker 1: person and you have thoughts and emotions and a certain 444 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:41,080 Speaker 1: self awareness, and a pre programmed machine that only reacts 445 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: to things yourself. Doctor Piccinini puts. 446 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: It, Okay, what I'm saying is a simulation of a brain, 447 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: would that experience anything or would it just be crunching 448 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 2: some numbers? And then at the end it gives you 449 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 2: an output that sounds like things that you would have 450 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 2: said or behaves that you would have exhibited with your body. 451 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 2: But behind that there's no actual subjective feelings or thoughts. 452 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,040 Speaker 1: But I guess, if it's simulating a brain, wouldn't it 453 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: have internal states and wouldn't it have representations of feelings 454 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: If it's going to simulate how we process information. 455 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 2: Yes, it would have representations of feelings. That a representation 456 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,239 Speaker 2: of a feeling is not necessarily a feeling, just like 457 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 2: a representation of a fire doesn't necessarily burn anything, or 458 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 2: representation of wind doesn't blow anything I see, or a 459 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: representation of volcano doesn't have any real hot lava. It's 460 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,879 Speaker 2: a representation and it's dynamical, it evolves, you know. It 461 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 2: tells you when the volcano is erupting, and when the 462 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 2: lava is coming out, and how many things it burns 463 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: on its path. But then it's still just a representation 464 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: of all these things. It doesn't destroy anything. 465 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: Oh, I see. What doctor Paccinini is saying is that 466 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: it's an open question whether or not a simulation of 467 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: a brain in a computer can be conscious. There are 468 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 1: a lot of theories about what is needed to have consciousness, 469 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: and some of them say a computer program can have consciousness, 470 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: and some of them say a computer can't. As you 471 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: put it, a simulation of a volcano is not a volcano. 472 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: It all hinges on the question of whether consciousness requires 473 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,119 Speaker 1: you to have a body or not. 474 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 2: A few of these theories do posit that the right 475 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 2: kind of information processing is sufficient for consciousness, but a 476 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: lot of them do not, and in fact positive the opposite, 477 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: that something more is needed. A certain kind of physical 478 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,360 Speaker 2: process or a certain kind of living system has to 479 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: be there. 480 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 1: I see there is something about that computation being in 481 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 1: a biological system that maybe makes it true consciousness. 482 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 2: Yes, I've seen more people defending the idea that it 483 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 2: takes more than just computation to generate a real mind. 484 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 2: And for example, there's a very distinguished psychologist, a neuroscientist 485 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 2: by the name of Anil Seth, and he has an 486 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 2: article coming out now in an important journal defending the 487 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,920 Speaker 2: idea that you have to be alive to be conscious. 488 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 2: So conscious requires a biological system. I don't necessarily agree 489 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 2: that it has to be biological. I'm not totally convinced, 490 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,479 Speaker 2: but one point that I agree with is that it 491 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 2: takes more than just computation or information processing. 492 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: Now, there's a lot of debate between philosophers and neuroscientists 493 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,840 Speaker 1: about this, But doctor Piccinini says, there's a growing sense 494 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: that your brain uploaded to a computer wouldn't really be 495 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: a conscious being simply because it doesn't have a body. 496 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,960 Speaker 1: That maybe there's something about having a physical body that's 497 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:59,320 Speaker 1: essential to having consciousness. I wonder what you're saying is 498 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: that we say, somehow need the need to be alive 499 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: as a functioning biological system in order to have the 500 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: experience that we know of as the human experience. 501 00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 2: Well, that's what Aniel Seth says, that we have to 502 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: be alive. I don't know if we have to be alive, 503 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: but like for us to even be able to process 504 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 2: information in the right kind of way, all these other 505 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 2: background conditions have to be in place, and they seem 506 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 2: to be part of what makes the system be able 507 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 2: to have experiences, conscious experiences, conscious thoughts. 508 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: Meaning if I lived inside of a computer in a bus, 509 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be the same experience. 510 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe there wouldn't be any experience at all. 511 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,960 Speaker 2: It would just be dead sort of states or unconscious 512 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: states of information. 513 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 1: So even if you uploaded your brain to a computer, 514 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: it might not work. It wouldn't exist in the same 515 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: way that you exist right now. And this brings us 516 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: to the second big philosophical question, which is would that 517 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: uploaded you still be you. 518 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: Normally, we can make a simulation of whatever system we choose, 519 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: and we have the original target system, and we're simulating, 520 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 2: like say the weather, and then we have a simulation 521 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 2: of the weather, but the weather is still there. That was, 522 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,800 Speaker 2: you know, We're just trying to simulate it over there, 523 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 2: and the simulation is a different system. So why would 524 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 2: anybody think that if we build a simulation of your brain, 525 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 2: then somehow you enter the simulation instead of staying there 526 00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 2: where you are in your brain. I see, But yeah, 527 00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 2: that's not you, that's a copy. 528 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 1: Meaning like, there's this fantasy that I would close my eyes, 529 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: I would feel like I'm going through a tunnel and 530 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: suddenly I'm in a computer. That's the fantasy, yeah, But 531 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 1: in reality, it's like I'll close my eyes and I'll 532 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: open them again, and then now suddenly there's something that's 533 00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: like me on the computer. 534 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 3: Yes, I think so. 535 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,400 Speaker 1: But for the thing in the computer, they would have 536 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: the experience of going to the tunnel, wouldn't they. 537 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 2: Well, they wouldn't exist before, so maybe they would have 538 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 2: a memory, you know, like a false memory of that. 539 00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: Oh false a maoun. 540 00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 2: This gets so tricky. 541 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, this kind of blows the whole idea wide open. 542 00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: What doctor Paccinini is saying is that the whole concept 543 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:20,520 Speaker 1: of uploading your mind is not possible, and that's because 544 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:23,840 Speaker 1: your mind is not like a file that can be transferred. 545 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:26,960 Speaker 1: What you'd really be doing is making a copy of 546 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,440 Speaker 1: your mind and then uploading that. But you would still 547 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 1: stay where you are. You wouldn't leave your body, which 548 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: begs the question what's the point then? 549 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 2: And maybe, you know, maybe some people would like to 550 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 2: have a copy of them made it, and that's fine, 551 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 2: but let's not confuse that with you surviving in that way. 552 00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,160 Speaker 2: You know, it's not a way for you to survive. 553 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: That's just the way to make a copy of you. 554 00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: I think you're arguing that the words uploading your mind 555 00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,960 Speaker 1: are just false because it's really more like you're uploading 556 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: a copy of your mind. Yes, all right, but here's 557 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: a twist, doct Cappuccinini things there is a way for 558 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 1: you to upload your brain and have it actually be 559 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: you that gets uploaded. And this is a scenario that 560 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 1: I had never heard before. 561 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: And the other idea is replacing parts of your brain 562 00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 2: with some microchips a little bit at a time, and 563 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: so nothing of your brain is left anymore and it's 564 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,320 Speaker 2: all microchips instead. So in the case the brain replacement, 565 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 2: it's actual a little more plausible that if you really 566 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: replace one part of your brain at a time, eventually 567 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 2: you sort of become all made out of artificial components, 568 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 2: because it's there's this one you, you know, there's one 569 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,120 Speaker 2: system all along. 570 00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: I mean, if you do it's slow enough, like a 571 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: ship of pieces, then you could transfer. Yeah, okay, this 572 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,600 Speaker 1: is a scenario where you gradually replace your brain one 573 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: part at a time, little by little, you would change 574 00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: out parts of your brain with computer chips and computer parts. 575 00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: In that case, you could stay you the whole time, 576 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: and the being that ends up in the computer would 577 00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:13,080 Speaker 1: technically be a continuation of the you you are right now. Now. 578 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 1: I don't know if I have to say this, but 579 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,879 Speaker 1: the technology to do any of this is pretty far 580 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 1: out in the future, if it's even possible at all. 581 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: But it's important to think about the philosophical questions because 582 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 1: it might help us figure out if it's worth doing. 583 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 2: So, don't fall for it. And if anybody says, oh, 584 00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 2: give us a million dollars and we'll freeze your brain 585 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 2: and then we'll upload your mind into a computer someday, 586 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:44,080 Speaker 2: it's a scam. You wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. No, 587 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 2: I'll give a million dollars a charity before I do that. Wait, 588 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: before I do that. 589 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, spend them on a real person, not a 590 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 1: fake version of you. Right, all right, here's what we 591 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,239 Speaker 1: learned today. A lot of smart people thinking about the 592 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 1: idea of uploading your brain. And technically there's nothing so 593 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: far that says that this is not physically possible. You 594 00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,560 Speaker 1: could imagine the science and the technology one day being 595 00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: advanced enough to do it. But the bigger question is 596 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,600 Speaker 1: is it worth it? Would it actually be you that's uploaded, 597 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: and with that uploaded version actually be alive and conscious. 598 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: The answer seems to be probably not, in which case 599 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: maybe the better question to ask is can we upgrade 600 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: our brains? 601 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 2: That seems to. 602 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: Be something we more desperately need these days. Thanks for 603 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: downloading us into your podcast player. I'll see you next week. 604 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: You've been listening to science stuff. The production of iHeartRadio 605 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: written and produced by me Or hitch Ham, edited by 606 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: Rose Seguda, Executive producer Jerry Rowland, an audio engineer and 607 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: mixer Casey pepperm and you can follow me on social media. 608 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: Just search for PhD Comics and the name of your 609 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,920 Speaker 1: favorite platform. Be sure to subscribe to sign stuff on 610 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts, 611 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 1: and please tell your friends We'll be back next Wednesday 612 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,480 Speaker 1: with another episode.