1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: My name is Max, my name is Noel. They call 6 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer Paul, 7 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: mission controlled decads. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 8 00:00:36,400 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:45,640 Speaker 1: to know. I have returned, fortunately here to our fair 10 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 1: metropolis of Atlanta. It's at least for the time beaten. 11 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: It's very good to see you, guys, and I can't 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 1: wait to dive into your mysterious adventures in the Pacific. 13 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: The mysterious adventures of a guy who was uh in 14 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: the in the Pacific area when he died. That's it's 15 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: like the pawn shop meme Matt that that was my 16 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: best I can do as answer. Uh. So, here we 17 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: are looking at a story we I think we all 18 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,960 Speaker 1: learned about in an earlier Listener Male segment, The Strange 19 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: Bizarre Tale of a fellow named Thomas Merton H M 20 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: E R T O N. For a lot of folks 21 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: today this may be an unfamiliar case. This guy was 22 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: a monk, an author, a peace activist. Uh. He could 23 00:01:43,640 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 1: rightly be called a mystic. He was perhaps most well 24 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: known for his inter faith studies. He was also known 25 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:55,960 Speaker 1: for his work in social justice. And there's there's a 26 00:01:56,080 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 1: huge genre you could call it, of holy figures working 27 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: in the realm of social justice. And when we say 28 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: social justice, we don't mean the internet meme of an 29 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: s JW or social justice warrior. What we mean is 30 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:18,520 Speaker 1: people who are fighting against far right governments, they're fighting 31 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: against big corporations. They're trying to do what they feel 32 00:02:23,440 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: is the most holy or in Marten's case, the most 33 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 1: Christian thing to do, which is to stick up for 34 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:33,959 Speaker 1: people who cannot stick up for themselves. And he did 35 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: this through pacifism, through writing. He wasn't a warrior monk 36 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: in the physical sense, is what we're saying. Uh. He 37 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: also spoke a lot too, in front of many people. 38 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 1: And he wrote a lot too. And he had like 39 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: dozens of books that he wrote in a pretty short 40 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: amount of time relatively speaking. Yeah, yep, he was a 41 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: prolific author. He originally wanted to be a poet. Uh. 42 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: In just the space of twenty seven years, less than 43 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: thirty years, he wrote more than fifty books, and in 44 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: December of nineteen he was found dead. This created a 45 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: mystery that, according to multiple sources, remains unsolved in the 46 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 1: present day. And before we begin, uh, I wanted to 47 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: ask you all, prior to that piece of listener mail 48 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: we received from fellow conspiracy realists, had any of us 49 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: ever heard of Thomas Merton. The name was immediately familiar 50 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: to me when I read it when I just saw 51 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: it on an email, but I could not place it anywhere. 52 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: But after or after literally searching it on Google for 53 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: a second, you see his face and I know I 54 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: have encountered him before, but I was you know, it 55 00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:45,520 Speaker 1: wasn't like I had a bunch of things stored from 56 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: him in my mind. No, I felt the same way 57 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: he does. He does have a look to him done, 58 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: and he's got a certain twinkle in his eye that 59 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: like has some recognition for me as well. But you know, 60 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 1: it was until I was digging in for this episode specifically, 61 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: that I really realized how he was such a huge 62 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: influence on so many folks who maybe go down that 63 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:09,440 Speaker 1: path of pure devout Christianity. Or decided to become a monk, 64 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: or you know, perhaps join in particular sect or devote 65 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: their lives to God in that way. Um So, if 66 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:18,839 Speaker 1: you were someone who was maybe from the church or 67 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: did those kinds of studies, I'm sure he would be very, 68 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: very familiar to you. I am not that person. Um 69 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,160 Speaker 1: So he was not but fascinating guy, really looking forward 70 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,120 Speaker 1: to digging into this unsolved mystery and this man's life. 71 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: And it should be mentioned that his books sold hundreds 72 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 1: of thousands of copies, and so it wasn't just the church, right, 73 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: it was, it was there was a wide audience. Glad. Yeah, 74 00:04:40,160 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: I'm glad you point that out, because, Uh, as you 75 00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 1: can tell by the date of death December late nineteen sixties, 76 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: we're talking about a peace activist at a time when 77 00:04:55,720 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: peace was considered by some authorities to itself be dangerous proposition. Uh. 78 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: This is a time when operations like co and TELL 79 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: pro actively monitored, stocked, or harassed various civic leaders, including, 80 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: of course, most famously Martin Luther King Jr. And Dr King. 81 00:05:18,839 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: I was just thinking a way to compare this. So 82 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: Dr King is if we consider him sort of a 83 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: Shakespeare on the level of Shakespeare in the fight for 84 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: civil rights in the US. Then you could, uh, you 85 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: could conceivably consider Thomas Merton to be a Christopher Marlowe 86 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: or Ben Johnson, someone who was also tremendously influential, but 87 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: perhaps not as well known today as they were in 88 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,880 Speaker 1: their time. So make no mistake whether or not you 89 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: have heard of Thomas Murton, and you're gonna hear a 90 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,760 Speaker 1: lot about him today. Uh. He he was up there 91 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,480 Speaker 1: in the pantheon of anti war active him and his approach, 92 00:06:01,560 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 1: his strategy was different. But like Dr King, he was 93 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:10,799 Speaker 1: a very well known orator. He was quite a prolific writer. 94 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:16,480 Speaker 1: People came to him for a spiritual and a practical perspective. 95 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: So here are the facts. He was born on January 96 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: thirty one, nineteen fifty, in France and the Pyrenees, to 97 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:31,640 Speaker 1: two artists, Owen Merton and Ruth Jenkins. Ruth Jenkins was 98 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: from the us Ohen Merton was a Kiwi. He was 99 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: from New Zealand. They were good parents and Thomas Burton 100 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:46,280 Speaker 1: was a bad kid, that's right. Um. In his time 101 00:06:46,320 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: at Cambridge University during the thirties, he was hard partier. 102 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 1: He essentially dropped out, um, in favor of just kind 103 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 1: of like, you know, hitchhiking, I guess around Europe. He 104 00:06:57,839 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: was in and out of jail, and he eventually he 105 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,719 Speaker 1: had a child out of wedlock, which is a big 106 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: no no in the in the Christian faith. Um. A 107 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 1: dude named Tom Bennett, who was an old friend of 108 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: Thomas's father, Uh, kind of took him under his wing, 109 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: but that got old pretty quickly. So he decided he 110 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: was done bailing this kid at a jail. Uh, and 111 00:07:20,640 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: you know, floating him money that he was just gonna 112 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: blow on booze and you know cheap rent or you know, 113 00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: hotels and things like that. Um. Not to mention that 114 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: he was still having to pay for classes at Cambridge. 115 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: I think he didn't drop out officially, He just kind of, 116 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, went a wall right then. Yeah, he was. 117 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: He was lush, which means disreputable basically. And he was 118 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: one of those kids who's kind of traveling on a 119 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: benefactor's dime. If you have if you have traveled in 120 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: your younger years to various parts of the world, you 121 00:07:54,600 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: have met these people and they can be at times insufferable. Uh. 122 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: This is just a growing phase. Yeah, and it is 123 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: something important, right, It's it's important for his life that 124 00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 1: he went through that. I think that he explored in 125 00:08:10,320 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: that way. It gave him of a perspective on life 126 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 1: that he wouldn't have had if you know, he just 127 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 1: was buttoned up and had whatever you would consider a 128 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: standard quiet upbringing. That's a really good point. He saw, 129 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 1: you know, how the other half lived. I guess because 130 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: he was the other half. And when I say that, 131 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: I don't mean like the privilege necessarily, I kind of 132 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: just mean like sinners. He was very much aware of 133 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: what it meant to live the life of a of 134 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: a quote unquote sinner. So this guy Tom Bennett to 135 00:08:38,800 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: spend a little time on him, I guess, very very 136 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:47,680 Speaker 1: old friend of Owen Merton, and took on the took 137 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: on the responsibility of carrying for Thomas, sort of like 138 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: Ward Thomas was while and out. Cambridge and several other 139 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: universities in the UK have been known for these clubs 140 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: that dedicate themselves two decadence revelry. There's even one club 141 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: I can't remember the name or the specific institution, uh 142 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: that is known for being composed entirely of cartoonishly rich 143 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: college students who intentionally wreck restaurants when they go to them, 144 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: like just so you know, that's the world in which 145 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: this guy is living. Eventually, Tom Bennett has just had 146 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: enough and he said, look, dude, you have to get 147 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,680 Speaker 1: it together. You have to shape off or ship out 148 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: like you are. You are almost twenty years old. You 149 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: have a kid. Merton, by the way, never meets this 150 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: kid during his lifetime, and you have the rest of 151 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: your life and you need to start taking it seriously. 152 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: So Merton obviously knows he's never going to graduate Cambridge. 153 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: He's burned a lot of bridges candidly in Europe. So 154 00:09:56,640 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: he ships off to New York City q the Salcy 155 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: Commercial Lie in January. He's just turned twenty. He applies 156 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:10,439 Speaker 1: to study at Columbia University, and this is where his 157 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 1: life changes. This is a moment he writes about pretty 158 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:19,720 Speaker 1: frequently in uh in his later autobiography. This is where 159 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: Catholicism really comes into Thomas Martin's story and into his life. 160 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,520 Speaker 1: And while he's at Columbia and not well, I mean 161 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: it's a while after what is it six years maybe 162 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: after he arrives there, he ends up at the Abbey 163 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 1: of Ghasemine in ninety one, and this is where he 164 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:46,439 Speaker 1: decides to become this thing called a Trappist monk. And 165 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: as we said before in the Listener Male episode, you 166 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: may have heard that term before just with regards to 167 00:10:51,080 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: a beverage that you enjoy drinking, a bureau perhaps, um, 168 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: But this is a this is a lifestyle, a type 169 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: of monastic existence. He joined the Order of Cistercians of 170 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: the Strict Observance. Huh. Yeah, but you know again, you 171 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: can you can see why maybe he would You can 172 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: see why maybe he would want to if he got 173 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,200 Speaker 1: really touched in his initial journeys into the Catholicism and 174 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: thought back on his life, you can maybe imagine like 175 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: why he would want to take this route, right. Yeah, 176 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: he's sown some wild oats. He feels like his life 177 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: experiences have informed his choice, because you know, to join 178 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: a monastic order is no small enterprise and it requires 179 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:50,359 Speaker 1: some careful considerations. So he he thought about this closely, 180 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: but he didn't ever quite fit in to the idea 181 00:11:55,520 --> 00:12:00,360 Speaker 1: of of the Trappist existence, which is pretty communal. I mean, 182 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: he wanted to be a poet. Uh. He was out 183 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: going to left wing protests and demonstrations. Early on, he 184 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: was also fascinated by Eastern religion and studied it extensively, 185 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: looking toward commonalities towards us spiritual points of intersection and agreement. 186 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,640 Speaker 1: Not too long ago, just a few centuries ago or so. 187 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: This is the kind of stuff that would get you 188 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:35,720 Speaker 1: in big trouble with the Catholic Church. Uh. In another 189 00:12:36,240 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: you know, about seven years he has published an autobiography 190 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 1: that propels him to international fame. It is called The 191 00:12:45,120 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: Seven Story Mountain. It's a good read. Candidly if it 192 00:12:49,840 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: is a bit um I don't want to say sensationalistic 193 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 1: or necessarily embellished, like I don't want to say his lying, 194 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: but he's styling on it. And later in life, in fact, 195 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: Merton would himself kind of kind of distance his present 196 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: identity from the the version of him that is the 197 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,079 Speaker 1: protagonist of this autobiography. At this point, he's he's into 198 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: Buddhism as well, right, yeah, yeah, with the Eastern religions 199 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: in general. He's he will go on to correspond with 200 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: various religious officials from Eastern religions, uh and and have 201 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: these really productive, deep philosophical conversations with them, Like don't 202 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:40,560 Speaker 1: get us wrong, you know. I know there's a little 203 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: bit of a stereotype that comes about when we talk 204 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: about people who have dedicated their lives to one form 205 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: of religion or the next. But this guy seems like 206 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: he's really chill and fun to hang out with, Like 207 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: he'll talk to you like he is not He hasn't 208 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: grown up in a monastery or anything. He was wilding 209 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,000 Speaker 1: out not too long ago, you know, and he became 210 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: like he lived more life by the time it was 211 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: twenty and many people have lived into their thirties or forties. 212 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: And I love Ben. They're talking about melding philosophical schools 213 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 1: there in a way, because that's really kind of what 214 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,600 Speaker 1: he's doing, is he's letting one inform the other a bit. 215 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: But it's it's it's his writing. And specifically that book 216 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: was very, very influential on young men returning from World 217 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: War Two, right That's and it's because I think and 218 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: I'm not a scholar on on this, but I do 219 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 1: think that it's because it felt open, maybe because it 220 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: was bringing in concepts from far flowing parts of the world, 221 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 1: uh and melding that philosophy into something that maybe an 222 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 1: individual can see as helpful to them, right, yeah, And 223 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: this is also being written in a larger cultural context. 224 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: It is the end of World War two. People are 225 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: returning from parts of the world they never thought they 226 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 1: would visit, and with them they're bringing cultural artifacts, both 227 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: tangible and intangible, so not just physical souvenirs, but belief systems. 228 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:18,160 Speaker 1: And this this is um an ecosystem in which merchant thrives. 229 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: He chafes a little bit. It's interesting when you read 230 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: about his life. He chafes a little bit under the 231 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: authority of the church and the monastery because the Trappist 232 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: existence is pretty communal, and as anyone who enjoys, or 233 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: maybe a better word is uh is compelled to, right, 234 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,480 Speaker 1: it can be kind of a solitary existence. So when 235 00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: he's writing extensively about concepts like justice, peace, inter faith, 236 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: what do we what are we all searching for when 237 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: we think of the concept of God? Uh? He eventually 238 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: he asked the leaders of the monastery, can I just 239 00:16:02,760 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: be a hermit? Can I just like just give me 240 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: a shock. It doesn't have to be in a good 241 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: part of the ground. It's just like, let me hang 242 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: out and write. And they're like, hey, you know, we 243 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 1: talked about this when you were becoming a monk. We're 244 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: we're kind of communal here, but he does he does 245 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: get them to kind of, I want to say, make exceptions, 246 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: but customize his existence there. So he's always always writing. Uh, 247 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 1: He's got tons of journals. He makes poems, some of 248 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: which you can easily read online about political, social concerns 249 00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 1: of the day. He's corresponding with a lot of UM. 250 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: I guess you could call him liberation theologists in Mexico 251 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: and South America, and he they the monastery makes a 252 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: deal with them where they say, okay, well, why don't 253 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 1: you become a lecturer and you can lecture um, you 254 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: can lecture students, you can lecture younger monks, and then 255 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 1: this beca comes away for him to sit around and write. 256 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:06,200 Speaker 1: If you have ever lived in or known someone who's 257 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:10,439 Speaker 1: lived in a intentional community or a communal lifestyle, what 258 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:14,919 Speaker 1: one of the big things about those communities is distribution 259 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: of work. So a lot of them fall apart when 260 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: it comes to the nuts and bolts stuff of like, Okay, 261 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: we're growing our own food. That's awesome, who's going to 262 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: actually grow it? Okay, we're we're self sufficient Uh, you know, 263 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,399 Speaker 1: we use fertilizer, who collects the poop? Who drops the 264 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: night night soil? And why does the leader of this 265 00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: group inevitably not have to do any real work. So 266 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: this gets controversial, and that's something they have to navigate together. 267 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,800 Speaker 1: It reminds me distinctly of a trip that we all 268 00:17:45,840 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 1: took years ago where we stayed in a communal house 269 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 1: where the boss who was staying with us in the 270 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 1: house inevitably got the largest bedroom. I don't think Matt, Matt, 271 00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,479 Speaker 1: were you on that trip. I don't think it was. 272 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: I don't know what we're referring to. Well, I'm not 273 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:04,760 Speaker 1: going to name names, obviously, but I think Ben, you 274 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 1: know what I'm referring to. I thought you went, but 275 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: maybe you stayed in a different house, but maybe you didn't. Okay, 276 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: I thought that you guys were there. But anyway, it's 277 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: a it's a it's a flex let's just say um. 278 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: But Ben, I think it's interesting the idea of a hermitage. Obviously, 279 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: that's the name of Thomas Jefferson's home. Um. And you know, 280 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 1: they can refer to a secluded retreat where one can live, 281 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: you know, kind of away from society. But it also 282 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,639 Speaker 1: literally refers to the dwelling of a hermit, and that 283 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: is exactly what he had built for him, or they 284 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 1: accommodated him because of I think probably they saw the 285 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: worth of him, the work that he was doing, and 286 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: they're like, okay, buddy, we'll make some compromises here for you. 287 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 1: Well yeah, um, guy, royalties. He was bringing money into 288 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: that abbey. That's true, especially after seven story Mountain. That 289 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 1: is absolutely true. Yeah, that's a very good point that 290 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: and that doesn't necessarily mean the monastery was somehow crooked 291 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: or sinister. This was a transparent agreement they had. That's 292 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: his contribution, right, I don't have to touch the fertilizer 293 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 1: because royalty checks or or probably phrase something like I 294 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,920 Speaker 1: would love to help out, but the elders have instructed 295 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:23,440 Speaker 1: me this is the way I should do it. It's 296 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:27,160 Speaker 1: it's funny because, if anything, this aspect of his life 297 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: should be inspiring to a lot of us listening today, 298 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 1: because it just it shows how much you can create. 299 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: You listening now, you specifically, it shows how much you 300 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: are capable of when you get the time and space 301 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: to focus solely on the things you want to create. 302 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 1: That's something that doesn't happen to a lot of people nowadays, 303 00:19:49,640 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: and it is an immense privilege. Uh, this isn't a 304 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: perfect life. He does get shut down on some ideas. 305 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: He wants to go to Mexico and work with a 306 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,680 Speaker 1: first a student and then later a priest that's been 307 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: corresponding with, and he's told he he cannot do this, 308 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,400 Speaker 1: but he's still pushing to travel. He's got this correspondence 309 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: going on with what you could describe as his counterparts 310 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:19,440 Speaker 1: in Asia, monks from other religious orders. And in nineteen 311 00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: sixty eight, remember that's the first date we dropped in 312 00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: today's episode ninety eight, he travels to Asia. He's hanging 313 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 1: out at the Red Cross, and he wants to meet 314 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: and speak with monks from other religious traditions. If you 315 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 1: look at his writings from this time and leading up 316 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: to this time, he often seems to feel that he 317 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,520 Speaker 1: and his colleagues are at the cusp of some great 318 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: spiritual awakening. Ben, do you think of the leadership in 319 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: the order that he was a part of had any 320 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: kind of editorial oversight over his work or had to 321 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: sign off since it definitely represented them. Yeah, I think 322 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: there could be something where they would voice their approval 323 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,479 Speaker 1: or disapproval, but maybe not necessarily censorship because he was 324 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:11,600 Speaker 1: very much you know, he was very much sincere in 325 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: his spiritual belief so you could argue that he was 326 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: kind of self selecting already, but also very outspoken and uh, 327 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: potentially very controversial. So I wonder if they maybe you know, 328 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: gave him a past knowing that he was bringing at 329 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: least attention, whether it good or bad, to their order 330 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: and like Matt was saying, those royalty checks, but there 331 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: were certainly people that did not care for his uh, 332 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: his attitudes and ideas and which we could maybe have 333 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,159 Speaker 1: been considered very radical. Um. And on that date that 334 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: you mentioned, ben Um in December of nineteen sixty eight, 335 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: he was found dead in a suburb of Bangkok in Thailand. Yeah, 336 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:51,639 Speaker 1: about fifteen miles away from Bangkok. He was at a 337 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:57,640 Speaker 1: place called Swan Kanye Wat Red Cross Retreats Center. So 338 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: the story goes like this, he's ound dead in his 339 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: cottage he has he's sharing rooms with some other folks 340 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,160 Speaker 1: will meet in a moment. He was only wearing shorts. 341 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 1: He was officially lying on his back with a short 342 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 1: circuited Hatachi fan across his body. Hatachi fan here is 343 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: a brand name of electric floor fan, meaning it stands 344 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: like a floor lamp, you know, and it's it's a 345 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: few feet high. So there's a lot of controversy. According 346 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:38,240 Speaker 1: to the official report, the original official report from the 347 00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: Thai government UH the autopsy indicates the following general explanation 348 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: for his death. He took a shower after a morning 349 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:49,560 Speaker 1: lecture and he was planning, you know, to have lunch. 350 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 1: He walked out of the shower, slipped, had a basically 351 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,439 Speaker 1: a banana peal moment with no banana, and then while 352 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: he was falling back words, he grabbed that fan nearby 353 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: instinctively to try to steady himself. The fan had a 354 00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 1: short circuit and electrocuted him. He had a wound on 355 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: the back of his head. It's implied this is from 356 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: his skull hitting the floor and then because of the 357 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,479 Speaker 1: faulty wiring of the fan he was he received an 358 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: enormous electric shock that possibly caused a massive heart attack, 359 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:29,240 Speaker 1: but either way led to his death. It sure seems 360 00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: like a bit of bet hedging going on in this report, 361 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: where it's like, well, if he didn't get killed by 362 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: the head wound. Then the fan definitely took him out. 363 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:40,440 Speaker 1: So certainly no foul play here because there were two 364 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 1: absolutely final destination style causes of death that could have 365 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: been at play here. So let's just move right along, 366 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 1: shall we. Um, No, let's not. Let's make the episode 367 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:56,240 Speaker 1: because this is weird. Yes it is. Yeah, this is 368 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: very weird. They think about if you've read many uh 369 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: topsy reports, which is a weird thing to say in 370 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 1: a sentence, but if you've read many of these, than 371 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: what you notice is there are things that can be 372 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,040 Speaker 1: contributing factors to a cause of death, but there's ultimately 373 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: supposed to be one cause of death. It's not a 374 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 1: it's ideally not a multiple choice question, you know. So 375 00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: this is already sus and that's why. That's why we well, 376 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 1: that's why. Yeah, that's why if you say you do them, 377 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: you actually do them. So in a way, this is 378 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: the beginning of the story, this moment around three pm, 379 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: December tenth. And for the people who don't accept the 380 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: various official explanations for Thomas Marton's death, there are a 381 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:49,679 Speaker 1: lot of questions that remain, and we believe these are 382 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: troubling questions even decades decades later. What are we talking about. 383 00:24:54,720 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: We'll tell you after a word from our sponsors. Here's 384 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: where it gets crazy. Okay, this is this is a 385 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: tough one because we're doing this one episode. There can 386 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: be much more to this story. We encourage you to 387 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: ride along with us for for the rest of this 388 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: show and also come back to us with your own 389 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 1: thoughts because we're condensing a lot of information here, and 390 00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: some of the information is still unavailable to the public, 391 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: uh to this day, and we're we're laboring under that constraint. 392 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: So we've established some pretty pretty solid stuff about Merton's life, 393 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,639 Speaker 1: and so with that, with what we know now, it 394 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: might seem first kind of odd to question this guy's death. 395 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,160 Speaker 1: You know, who would want to murder a monk? What 396 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: danger could a pacifist dedicated to spiritual awakenings posed to anyone? 397 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's at first blush it seems weird, right, 398 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: it seems like there's so many other people who should 399 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:08,640 Speaker 1: be murdered, you know what I mean. They're serial killers, 400 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: there are war criminals. The list goes on, and you 401 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: just answered your own question. It's war criminals who fear pacifists. Hey, 402 00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: they're only criminals if they're caught. Though. Oh, it's true. 403 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,440 Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like, to someone who thrives on war 404 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 1: and makes money on war, the pacifists who truly can 405 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: reach people's hearts and minds, it's possibly the most dangerous 406 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: thing in existence. Yeah, I was thinking that later. It's 407 00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: it's funny you mentioned that because I had that leader 408 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,159 Speaker 1: notes too. I was thinking, you know, the pursuit of 409 00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: peace can itself to seem to some demographics to be 410 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,639 Speaker 1: incredibly dangerous and threatening. I want to continue on this, 411 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: and I want to just give two other names and dates, 412 00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: uh to the conversation here, add them to the mix. 413 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: As we're thinking about this and why people may have 414 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,639 Speaker 1: fought there was something else to the story. Consider that 415 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 1: we're discussing December tenth, ninety eight, the death of a 416 00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: path pacifist monk. Consider that in April of that same year, 417 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, Martin Luther King Jr. A pacifist civil 418 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: rights leader and church leader, was killed assassinated. And consider 419 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 1: in June of that year, Robert F. Kennedy, a somewhat 420 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: pacifist at least pacifist leaning politician, was assassinated. Yeah, and 421 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: we know that, you know, the man who killed John 422 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 1: Lennon was likely inspired by obsession and and personal you know, 423 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,119 Speaker 1: perceived vendetta. But we also know that John Lennon was 424 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:48,719 Speaker 1: tracked extensively by the FBI, and that dossier's and you know, 425 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: files were kept on him for his outspokenness on on 426 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: pacifism and uh, you know anti Vietnam views well, and yeah, 427 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 1: and who knows what you believe about how those men 428 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: were killed or why they were killed, or you know, 429 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 1: the very stories and theories behind their deaths. It's just 430 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: pacifists were dying right right at a time when there 431 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: was comparatively little oversight of the actions and capacities of 432 00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 1: many factions of governments, not just the US, but the 433 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: world's governments. And this is this is exacerbated by the 434 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,080 Speaker 1: the the sheer fact that the US is immensely powerful 435 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: post World War Two. So if the watchman isn't going 436 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: to watch itself, who will? Which sounds cryptic but not 437 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,560 Speaker 1: unnecessarily so. And we're raising we're raising good points here. 438 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 1: So it's even possible that Merton may have alluded to 439 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: the dangerous nature of his advocacy for peace in his 440 00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: own work. During his lifetime. You can read some articles 441 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: in the Irish Times. They're pretty short, but they they 442 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 1: are dense with information and it one the reporter quotes 443 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:11,080 Speaker 1: his work, a signed confession of Crimes against the State, 444 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: in which he writes, in which Merton writes, quote, the 445 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 1: very thoughts of a person like me are crimes against 446 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: the state. All I have to do is think, and 447 00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: immediately I become guilty. Well yeah, right, I thought crime. 448 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 1: But also I think that's something a lot of us 449 00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: listening in today can identify with in one capacity or another. 450 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 1: And in the years following Merton's death, multiple people came 451 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: forward objecting to the story. One guy, Jim Douglas, a 452 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:46,239 Speaker 1: friend of Merton's, raised the issue publicly multiple times. But 453 00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:49,959 Speaker 1: he's not the only one. Uh. The people have a 454 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: problem with this also include some of the folks who 455 00:29:53,800 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: were there that day that December tenth in this is 456 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 1: something you should remember for the end of this episode. 457 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: In twenty sixteen, there's this theologian named Matthew Fox no relation, 458 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: I think to the actor from Lost, who had maintained 459 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:17,120 Speaker 1: that Merton was assassinated by CIA agents active in Thailand 460 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: at the time. In the late nineteen sixties, and further, 461 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: Fox claimed a member of the CIA actually told him 462 00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: that's what happened. Wait, you might be saying, is this 463 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: the end of the episode. No, no, just hold that, 464 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: just keep it, keep in the front of your head 465 00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: or you know, in a little pocket chest. Yeah. Yeah, 466 00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: put it in your shoe. But put it somewhere where 467 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 1: you can find it, because we're coming back to that. 468 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: What we need to point out now, we need to 469 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,720 Speaker 1: introduce is for the people who believe that Thomas Murton 470 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: was murdered, there is one book that stands above all others. 471 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,280 Speaker 1: It is called The Martyrdom of Thomas Murton and Investing Asian. 472 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 1: It's published in so it's it's relatively recent. It's by 473 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:10,120 Speaker 1: two authors, David Martin and Hugh Turley, and they I think, 474 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: I said, you know, they walk through circumstances surrounding Marten's demise, 475 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,479 Speaker 1: but that's not true. They dive in. This book is 476 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:22,360 Speaker 1: obsessively researched and they poke serious, serious holes in the 477 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: official story. And it's a it's a story that they 478 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: say they find preposterous. And I'll be honest, if you 479 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: read the book, they back it up a hundred percent 480 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: you can also see right now. I know there's for 481 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: sure one long interview with Hugh Turley. There are several 482 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,600 Speaker 1: places where he's spoken about it. I didn't see much 483 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: about Martin speaking on it, but I just didn't find 484 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: it maybe in my in my search. But you can 485 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 1: hear them discuss it if you're more into the video 486 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,280 Speaker 1: format or you want to listen, just if you're if 487 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 1: you're not going to read the book. Yeah, that's somewhere 488 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,120 Speaker 1: between like a primary secondary source because it is the 489 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: author talking about the book that they wrote. And I 490 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: think there's are you talking about the interview on YouTube? 491 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 1: It's about forty five minutes or so. There are several 492 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: on there. When Yeah, there's one that you can find. 493 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:18,120 Speaker 1: Just search for Hugh Tarley and Thomas Merton. You'll find it. Yeah. 494 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: So here's what here's what the authors are talking about. 495 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: In the book. They say there are numerous issues with 496 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 1: both how the story was initially reported, one, how it 497 00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: was investigated to and how the cause of death became 498 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: official three and uh, it gets so in depth so quickly. 499 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 1: They focus on the accounts of several people Merton's colleagues 500 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 1: in the church and at this Red Cross retreat. One 501 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: of the folks they focus on is Friar Francois de Groun. 502 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 1: It was the last person known to have been with 503 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:04,560 Speaker 1: Merton when Merton returned to his room after those lectures. 504 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: And at this point it is crucial to note the 505 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: stories already don't match. From the moment de Gron leaves 506 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,480 Speaker 1: Burton and his last person to see him alive, these 507 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: stories start to spread and propagate and mutate, and they 508 00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: contradict each other at almost every imaginable point other than 509 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: the fact that there is a man who is dead. 510 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: Like take the versions of how to Grund found Burton's 511 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: body in the first place, because he's also important to 512 00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: note he's the last person who saw him alive and 513 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: the first person who saw him dead, that's right. And 514 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: there are three versions of how the body was found, 515 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:50,360 Speaker 1: how to ground found Merton's body, which kind of again 516 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: ties into the whole like sus nature of what was 517 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: it the fan and electrocuted him? Did he hit his head? 518 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 1: What's the deal? And there are varying kind of account 519 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 1: so this some of which come directly from the monastery itself, 520 00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,120 Speaker 1: Like there's a you know, version of the story that 521 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: they have then there's the official report. It's all very strange, 522 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: but these are the versions of how to Grun potentially 523 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: found Merton's body. So one, the police reported that de 524 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,239 Speaker 1: Grin heard a suspicious noise around three o'clock in the 525 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 1: afternoon and ran downstairs. Um. They also went on to 526 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,720 Speaker 1: report that de Groun went to Merton's room to grab 527 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: a key. And then we have a report from father 528 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 1: Celestine Say, who was on site at this Red Cross 529 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,120 Speaker 1: you know, what do you call it? Like, I guess compound? 530 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: Um he says that Say says that de Grun went 531 00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: to ask Merton if he wanted to go for a 532 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: little swim. And then the authors point out that all 533 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: of these stories can't possibly all be true, and in 534 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:55,680 Speaker 1: fact may all be untrue. Um. They conclude that what's 535 00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: most likely is de Groun didn't go down to see 536 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: Morton at all, but instead knocked on father says door, um, 537 00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: prompting Say to discover Martin's body on the floor. So 538 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: this is all we're getting into, some kind of semantic 539 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 1: ee kind of splitting hairs thing that doesn't feel particularly 540 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,720 Speaker 1: conspiratorial yet even this point, like, what did these folks 541 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: have to gain? In covering this up. It just almost 542 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: feels like a case of miscommunication or bad reporting at 543 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,440 Speaker 1: this point to me. Um, but we'll we'll go on 544 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: to see that it also appears to be something much 545 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 1: more than that. Well, we're gonna get into it. But 546 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 1: a lot of what we know are from official thaie reports, 547 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: Thaie sources, right, And these men are English speakers in 548 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,319 Speaker 1: Thailand and in dealing with authorities, and those authorities are 549 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,120 Speaker 1: then you know there's translation occurring, reports are being made. 550 00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 1: I'm I'm wondering if there's anything small there that was 551 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 1: lost in translation. Uh. Right, Well, there's an important issue here, 552 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: which is that, Yeah, as the authors pointed out, these 553 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: stories cannot all be true, but these folks are interviewed 554 00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: about what happens the day after the murders, so there's 555 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:14,080 Speaker 1: not enough time for memory to play the treacherous game 556 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: of retrieval and reinterpretation, and already witnesses are disagreeing about something. 557 00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:27,759 Speaker 1: When you are a witness to a murder, changing your 558 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: story just even once is incredible is an incredibly bad 559 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: move and avoided if you can, because it makes people 560 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: think that you are not telling the truth or you 561 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,560 Speaker 1: are unreliable. And both of those things are not a 562 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: good look. They're not a they're not a catbird seed exactly. 563 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 1: But we do know there are three men, let me 564 00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: say they discovered Merton's body. Later we'll find that. Apparently 565 00:36:55,200 --> 00:37:00,200 Speaker 1: the grun didn't disage, however, anything wrong with Merton it all. 566 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: He just knocked on Say's door and then went off 567 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: to tell other people. So these three guys who do 568 00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: actually go to Merton's room, Otto Hass, Egbert Donovan, who 569 00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,160 Speaker 1: is in our chapit, and the previously mentioned officials saved 570 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,320 Speaker 1: from the Philippines. They walk in and according the reports, 571 00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: they immediately know this guy is dead and the fan 572 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,720 Speaker 1: is still running. Uh. This book, the Martyrdom spends a 573 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,760 Speaker 1: lot of time on the fan. And the next few minutes, 574 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 1: so according to this has Soto, Hass reaches out to 575 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 1: move that fan and he gets a shock. Little zippityes 576 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:42,720 Speaker 1: app and say unplugs the fan. This shock, it's important 577 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: to note, does not incapacitate Hass. It's it's just enough 578 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 1: to be unpleasant. Uh. And so Hass apparently the guys 579 00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: recognized something untoward has occurred, and so has says, hey, 580 00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, say go get your camera. Let's take some 581 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,399 Speaker 1: photos so police can see this and probably does that 582 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: moment we hear about in film so often don't touch anything, right, 583 00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 1: which is also what you should do. You shouldn't touch 584 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,479 Speaker 1: anything in a crime scene unless you're trying to cover 585 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,279 Speaker 1: up or alter a part of the crime scene. That's 586 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 1: the only reason to touch stuff, you know. It's it's 587 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:25,080 Speaker 1: interesting hearing about this secondary interaction with the fan, because 588 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: much a lot has made, you know, much to do 589 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: is made about this fan. But I mean to me, 590 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: you think you hear about you know, that's almost like 591 00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,359 Speaker 1: cliche trophy way of committing suicide. The idea of being 592 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,359 Speaker 1: in a bath and dropping like a toaster or like, 593 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: you know, some sort of electrical appliance like a hair 594 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:44,720 Speaker 1: hair dry or something in it would require some huge 595 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 1: conductive force for that to probably be, you know, enough 596 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,960 Speaker 1: to kill you, unless you just absolutely gripped the transformer, 597 00:38:52,160 --> 00:38:55,240 Speaker 1: you know, while you were soaking wet. Um. It seems 598 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 1: like an awful lot to to ask for that to 599 00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: have been the thing that actually killed Merton Um. But 600 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: yet a lot of his made of this fan. Yeah, yeah, 601 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:09,920 Speaker 1: especially in the various versions. Again, the various versions of 602 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: the official reports, So there is a doctor at the center. 603 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: There are a couple of doctors, obviously it is the 604 00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: Red Cross. One of them is Dr Weist. Dr Weiss 605 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,600 Speaker 1: gets word of what that something screwy is happening, and 606 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:29,720 Speaker 1: she is at the scene moments later, as the news 607 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: spreads through the retreat and the doctor initially observes a 608 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:40,320 Speaker 1: third degree burn in the upper right abdominal area where 609 00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,520 Speaker 1: the fans switchbox which where you would turn the fan 610 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: on and off, had a mad contact with Merton's skin. Later, 611 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:53,560 Speaker 1: some of those other witnesses, including say will pardon me 612 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:57,359 Speaker 1: for this, say that they did not see any burns. Uh. 613 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 1: The doctor also observes a series of strip like burns 614 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: on Merton's right arm, and perhaps most importantly, a quote 615 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: bleeding wound on the back of his head. She concludes 616 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 1: that Merton has been electrocuted, and when she does make 617 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: that conclusion, she replaces the fan on Merton's body so 618 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 1: that things will quote look as they have been found 619 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,799 Speaker 1: for the police. Don't touch anything right to it and 620 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,400 Speaker 1: put it right back right exactly. I'm just gonna do. 621 00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,320 Speaker 1: You can touch it a little bit as a treat, 622 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,280 Speaker 1: but this is this is what is happening at this time. 623 00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: And even though she concludes that electrocution has caused this 624 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,200 Speaker 1: guy's death, she's puzzled, and rightly so, because she can't 625 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: figure out why had fallen? Had he fainted? Did he 626 00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: have a dizzy spell? Do you have a heart attack? 627 00:40:49,880 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: Why would she wonder that? Why wouldn't she say that 628 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,560 Speaker 1: he like slipped because his feet were wet from coming 629 00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:00,759 Speaker 1: out of the shower. Well, it's because the shower itself 630 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: that that whole part of the narrative is also seriously 631 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,320 Speaker 1: called into question. Yes, at least according to the authors 632 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: who wrote the book about the investigation that we've been 633 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: talking about here, According to them, that story was invented 634 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: Thomas Murton. At least, according to them, there's no evidence 635 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: at least that he took a shower, that he was wet, 636 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: when when any of this occurred. That story was allegedly 637 00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: written in nineteen seventy three, several years five years after 638 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: his death, and it was written by someone named brother 639 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 1: Patrick Hart, who who was Again I'm only going off 640 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: what I learned from that book's contents, But according to 641 00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:51,200 Speaker 1: those authors, this person, brother Hart, was a fairly new 642 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,239 Speaker 1: secretary to Thomas Murton, or at least fairly newly functioning 643 00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,800 Speaker 1: secretary to Thomas Merton Um. And for some reason or 644 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: an other he wrote in the Asian Journal of Thomas Murton. Uh, 645 00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 1: this thing, the story about the shower. Yeah, Patrick Hart 646 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: is an interesting character, and the people who believe that 647 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:17,760 Speaker 1: Thomas Murton was murdered do spend a lot of time 648 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,000 Speaker 1: on how he propagated what is the dominant narrative of 649 00:42:22,040 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: the death today. And this is one aspect of a 650 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 1: larger problem, which is again the diffusion of story right 651 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,839 Speaker 1: and the way in which these stories contradict each other. 652 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: So the authors of The Martyrdom don't just allege that 653 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:46,480 Speaker 1: authorities may have bungled this investigation. They say they straight 654 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,520 Speaker 1: up manufactured witness statements. And again, you know, you can 655 00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: find this book online. You can order it from your 656 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:58,400 Speaker 1: bookstore for Amazon. It's freely available. It's not classified or 657 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: you know, suppressed her and he thing. But it when 658 00:43:02,520 --> 00:43:04,960 Speaker 1: I read it, I thought they made some powerful arguments. 659 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:11,440 Speaker 1: One in particular is that the only statement providing evidence 660 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,520 Speaker 1: that bad fan wiring might have immediately killed someone, the 661 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 1: only primary statement is super suspect. It looks fake, It 662 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,840 Speaker 1: looks so fake because it doesn't just contain hallmarks of 663 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: a falsified police report. It contains the kind of hallmarks 664 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: that indicate preferred methods of existing organizations that have falsified 665 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,440 Speaker 1: reports in the past. So it's kind of like it's 666 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:40,320 Speaker 1: kind of like if you know someone who takes credit 667 00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:44,680 Speaker 1: for something to do, or you're a college professor and 668 00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,800 Speaker 1: you've had the same ne'er do well student multiple times 669 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,200 Speaker 1: in your classes, you can tell, like you know their tricks. 670 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:54,960 Speaker 1: And that's what his authors are saying. They have like 671 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:58,640 Speaker 1: little tells almost there are little signatures almost of you know, 672 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:04,360 Speaker 1: some kind of um nefarious activity. Yeah. So this statement 673 00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:08,080 Speaker 1: is supposedly from Otto hass he's the guy who survived 674 00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: the fan and the name of the surviving the fans 675 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:17,440 Speaker 1: could be the subtitle of this autobiography. And this witness 676 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,600 Speaker 1: account has some pretty egregious errors. It doesn't match the 677 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:28,120 Speaker 1: stories of the other witnesses. Uh. In this Otto has 678 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 1: misspells the name of his like the place where he 679 00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:38,280 Speaker 1: lives his own religious community in Korea. Uh. The strength 680 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,160 Speaker 1: of the shock that he received from the fan is 681 00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,600 Speaker 1: totally is described totally differently from the way that other 682 00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,680 Speaker 1: witnesses describe it. Perhaps most importantly, even though this is 683 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 1: a witness statement, it is not signed, it bears no date. 684 00:44:54,640 --> 00:44:59,000 Speaker 1: Nobody's exactly sure when it was written, it seems, and 685 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 1: this is the belief of the authors of the Martyrdom. 686 00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: It seems that this was written as a way to 687 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: provide some evidence or some support for the idea that 688 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,880 Speaker 1: this guy died by a fan. And there are a 689 00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:14,360 Speaker 1: couple of things that we should mention here. They're really important. 690 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,359 Speaker 1: So in East Asia and the diaspora there there is 691 00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: a there's an interesting series of urban legends or common 692 00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:26,839 Speaker 1: beliefs about electric fans, and one of those is that 693 00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 1: you cannot leave a fan on a night because it 694 00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:34,680 Speaker 1: may electrocute you due to wiring, or that it may 695 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,239 Speaker 1: was the other one, Matt, I, I remember hearing this, 696 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: and I don't know if this is correct, the concept 697 00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: that you don't leave a fan on because of something 698 00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:47,239 Speaker 1: with the air circulation and you may suffocate. I see, Yeah, 699 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,879 Speaker 1: so they're already like this. This idea of death by 700 00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:55,480 Speaker 1: fan is something that kind of exists in nearby parts 701 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: of the world. But also another deal with the fan 702 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 1: that more people pointed out this guy. First off, Merton 703 00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 1: if a shower occurred, he had a shared shower, I 704 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: think like private bath, shared shower kind of situation. Uh, 705 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,399 Speaker 1: and other people would have been walking around this fan. 706 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,279 Speaker 1: Also Merton himself, this isn't the first day he got there. 707 00:46:19,560 --> 00:46:23,400 Speaker 1: He had touched the fan earlier. So what happened between 708 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:26,560 Speaker 1: the earlier encounters with the fan and the encounter on 709 00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,160 Speaker 1: December ten. It's a good question. We don't have an 710 00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: answer there are you know, there are implications in the 711 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,279 Speaker 1: book and uh and some other sources that say the 712 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:40,120 Speaker 1: fan may have been tampered with. But even that's tough 713 00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:44,439 Speaker 1: because again we have two potential causes of death. Why 714 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:48,839 Speaker 1: were we so snarky about the autopsy, We'll tell you 715 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,640 Speaker 1: because the medical investigation that did take place was also 716 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:58,759 Speaker 1: just so bizarrely suspect. That's right. UM. We have an 717 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:05,120 Speaker 1: account from Dr Lusanna Knock Vachara, who was the doctor 718 00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:09,080 Speaker 1: that was assisting in the investigation. UM. And and he's 719 00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:12,640 Speaker 1: he's mentioned in the book, and according to official sources, 720 00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: he arrived there on site with the police and he 721 00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:18,520 Speaker 1: completed his report on the same day as the death. 722 00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:23,680 Speaker 1: I don't know what standard operating procedure is like in Thailand, 723 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: But here you don't usually mean you have a coroner 724 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:32,000 Speaker 1: or somebody to you know, declare somebody dead and make 725 00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:37,920 Speaker 1: an official record, but typically you wouldn't have that information 726 00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,560 Speaker 1: available so quickly. The idea of this report came out 727 00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,840 Speaker 1: the same exact day as the death with no autopsy, um, 728 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: before the investigation of the fan itself and you know, 729 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:53,160 Speaker 1: the actual mechanics of the fan um before the interviews 730 00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: with the witnesses even were taken. UM, no autopsy so 731 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:01,719 Speaker 1: very strange. I mean, that's a big no atop. It's 732 00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:04,279 Speaker 1: it's big. But even if even with all of those 733 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:07,400 Speaker 1: other factors, you still do it autopsy. There's not a 734 00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:10,240 Speaker 1: situation where you just say, oh, we can skip the autopsy. 735 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,840 Speaker 1: That's sort of standard operating procedure, right, Yeah, standard, this 736 00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 1: is standard. This is the standard case. No, it's been 737 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:21,840 Speaker 1: in general. Yeah, originally there isn't There is a report 738 00:48:22,120 --> 00:48:26,120 Speaker 1: that there is an autopsy, but that turns out not 739 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,040 Speaker 1: to uh not not to be the case. And yeah, 740 00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:30,719 Speaker 1: this is where we really get into looking at the 741 00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:35,440 Speaker 1: official documents that were generated through this hole ordeal and 742 00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: this the death of Thomas Merton. There are several and 743 00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,239 Speaker 1: the authors of this investigative book were able to get 744 00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:45,719 Speaker 1: these official documents, and they noted that in several places 745 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: it says that there was an autopsy, but then there 746 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 1: will be a handwritten note on the back by a 747 00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:56,680 Speaker 1: responding officer or by someone a police officer handling the investigation, 748 00:48:56,719 --> 00:49:01,680 Speaker 1: saying no, there was no autopsy. Uh. Just very very strange, 749 00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: right right. It's smacks of people trying to get their 750 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: story straight, to be absolutely candid here. So this doctor 751 00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: uh Nacara concludes again the same day as the death concludes, 752 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:23,640 Speaker 1: cardiac failure has caused accidental falling into the fan, which 753 00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,439 Speaker 1: is weird because it means that this doctor made those 754 00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:33,760 Speaker 1: conclusions before the investigation concluded or before it really began. 755 00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,800 Speaker 1: They sort of set out with an idea where they say, Okay, 756 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,400 Speaker 1: this is what happened. Let's make it look this way again. 757 00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:44,360 Speaker 1: If you believe that there's conspiracy of foot this is 758 00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: troubling for a ton of reasons. Later, Catholic officials on 759 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:52,080 Speaker 1: the scene, multiple Catholic officials on the scene would say 760 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:55,319 Speaker 1: heart failure was a choice of convenience, It was a 761 00:49:55,400 --> 00:50:01,600 Speaker 1: less complicated conclusion than electrocution, and even Curtin's official biographer 762 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:06,319 Speaker 1: believes the electrocution angle was downplayed to avoid embarrassing the 763 00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:12,560 Speaker 1: Red Cross or the Thai government and Thai officials hosting them, 764 00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:16,319 Speaker 1: So that could be one cover up. But how did 765 00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:19,719 Speaker 1: Thomas Murton actually die if there is a cover up, 766 00:50:19,920 --> 00:50:22,399 Speaker 1: and why do people believe he was murdered? Will tell 767 00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 1: you after a word from our sponsor. So let's get 768 00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,719 Speaker 1: into the theories first. Those authors, Truly and Martin, they 769 00:50:34,840 --> 00:50:38,080 Speaker 1: think that Merton was struck in the back of the head, 770 00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,799 Speaker 1: either by a pointed object or a bullet fired from 771 00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,080 Speaker 1: a gun fitted with a silencer. People did report hearing 772 00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: a noise. It's again just like the shower. It's controversially 773 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:52,840 Speaker 1: don't know if it actually happened. And they also believe 774 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:56,280 Speaker 1: his body was later moved or repositioned as the before 775 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,839 Speaker 1: the investigation commenced. Uh. They say that Merton was lying 776 00:50:59,840 --> 00:51:03,560 Speaker 1: on the floor and originally his legs and arms were 777 00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:06,719 Speaker 1: straight and his palms were facing down like you would 778 00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 1: put him in a coffin. And you'll remember that the 779 00:51:08,640 --> 00:51:14,000 Speaker 1: Benedictine father, Celestine Say who was Filipino, took those photographs 780 00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:17,640 Speaker 1: at the crime scene. And they're basing their conclusions on 781 00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,799 Speaker 1: those photographs with Martin's body laying on the floor, the 782 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:24,040 Speaker 1: fans still on top of his thigh um and reaching 783 00:51:24,080 --> 00:51:28,760 Speaker 1: to the opposite side of his lower waist um. Yeah. Yeah, 784 00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:33,920 Speaker 1: And this is so things get dicey because these guys 785 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:38,560 Speaker 1: decide to take photographs with says camera because they don't 786 00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,600 Speaker 1: they want to get the evidence is accurately as possible 787 00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,480 Speaker 1: before an investigation ensues. They don't know what's going to happen. 788 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,520 Speaker 1: They're being on the safe side with this. However, photographs 789 00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:54,840 Speaker 1: of the scene have been withheld and the authors of 790 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,320 Speaker 1: this book weren't able to get They were able to 791 00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,000 Speaker 1: view the photographs, but they weren't able to publish them 792 00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:04,560 Speaker 1: in their work. It's something really weird happens. So the 793 00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:12,200 Speaker 1: abbey in Kentucky, right is Merton's home, and they say, 794 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,479 Speaker 1: you know what, we want to have an autopsy done, 795 00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:16,880 Speaker 1: and they asked the U. S Embassy for help. In 796 00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:20,200 Speaker 1: the U. S Embassy says something really weird. They say, okay, well, 797 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:25,919 Speaker 1: according to the laws of Thailand, if there is an autopsy, 798 00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:31,759 Speaker 1: Merton has to be buried in Thailand. And according to 799 00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:35,640 Speaker 1: the authors, this is hogwash. This is like an invented 800 00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:38,840 Speaker 1: law that someone in the embassy said for some reason. 801 00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,799 Speaker 1: So instead of having an actual autopsy, which is said 802 00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:45,000 Speaker 1: to have occurred in some of the paperwork but never 803 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:48,560 Speaker 1: actually happened, the abbey just flies Merton's body back to 804 00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:53,680 Speaker 1: the US along with corpses of American soldiers, and the 805 00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:57,400 Speaker 1: police report further doesn't make room to investigate homicide. I 806 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:00,440 Speaker 1: believe there are a total of two lines in the report. 807 00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,000 Speaker 1: Let's say there were no witnesses who might be suspected 808 00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:07,719 Speaker 1: of causing the death. There's no reason to suspect criminal causes. 809 00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,680 Speaker 1: And that's it. That's it. That's Oh he really persuaded us. 810 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,080 Speaker 1: They just said, I don't think about it. Don't think 811 00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,960 Speaker 1: about that part. So there are a couple of possibilities. 812 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:21,600 Speaker 1: One theory distressingly simple. The local police just messed up, 813 00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:26,680 Speaker 1: just bungled the investigation several times. That's absolutely possible, And 814 00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,800 Speaker 1: that happens even with the best of intentions and even 815 00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,759 Speaker 1: with competent professionals, working people can make mistakes totally and 816 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:38,440 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily imply nefarious you know, manipulation of evidence. I mean, 817 00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:42,560 Speaker 1: there can just be honest mistakes. Well, but within that theory, 818 00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:44,920 Speaker 1: you also have all the other theories that because if 819 00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:48,080 Speaker 1: they bungled the investigation, it could have been he did 820 00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,960 Speaker 1: actually die accidentally, he uh was killed by someone that 821 00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,640 Speaker 1: they never found and never even searched for. You know, 822 00:53:55,719 --> 00:54:01,320 Speaker 1: there's it encompasses all of the things within that one concept. Yeah, exactly. 823 00:54:01,480 --> 00:54:06,080 Speaker 1: And then there's another theory. What if the police and 824 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,439 Speaker 1: the US government actively covered up a murder, why would 825 00:54:09,480 --> 00:54:12,840 Speaker 1: they do that? Well, at the time, the US government 826 00:54:12,920 --> 00:54:15,839 Speaker 1: and the Thai government were deep, deep, deep into some 827 00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:19,240 Speaker 1: very shady things. Think about it. Thailand's allowing the US 828 00:54:19,360 --> 00:54:23,440 Speaker 1: to run bases for bombing raids in Vietnam and Laos 829 00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:29,200 Speaker 1: and officially right, unofficial, well, there's in China war. Yeah. 830 00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:34,319 Speaker 1: So between nineteen fifty and nineteen seventy five, a lot 831 00:54:34,320 --> 00:54:37,040 Speaker 1: of money is changing hands, a ton of money, more 832 00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:39,760 Speaker 1: than you might think. Thailand gets around six or fifty 833 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,440 Speaker 1: million dollars in economic aid, another nine d fifty million 834 00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 1: earmarked just for defense and security. For comparison, nine hundred 835 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:51,000 Speaker 1: fifty million is over fifty percent of Bangkok's own spending 836 00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,319 Speaker 1: on its armed forces every year during that period. This 837 00:54:54,440 --> 00:54:57,640 Speaker 1: doesn't count another seven hundred and sixty million for the 838 00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:02,279 Speaker 1: vaguely phrased operating costs, the purchase or subsidized purchase of 839 00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:06,000 Speaker 1: military equipment, payment for Thai troops in Vietnam. The list 840 00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:08,760 Speaker 1: goes on and on, all at all over a period 841 00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:11,640 Speaker 1: of just ten years nineteen sixty five to nineteen seventy five. 842 00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:16,560 Speaker 1: That's over two billion dollars in assistance, making Thailand the 843 00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,719 Speaker 1: second largest recipient of American aid and the entirety of 844 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,759 Speaker 1: Southeast Asia, second only, of course to Vietnam. So what 845 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:24,879 Speaker 1: does this all I have to do with this monk 846 00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:27,920 Speaker 1: from Kentucky who is just like, hey, maybe let's not 847 00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,920 Speaker 1: wage war on each other. Uh? Well, he was staunchly 848 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:34,839 Speaker 1: opposed to the Indo China War, and that's the war 849 00:55:34,960 --> 00:55:38,160 Speaker 1: that Thailand was actively pursuing with the US. So the 850 00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:42,440 Speaker 1: authors here also point out that Thai officials are provably 851 00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:46,160 Speaker 1: in bed with the c i A on illegal stuff. 852 00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,200 Speaker 1: So they're working with Uncle Sam overall for Indo China War. 853 00:55:49,719 --> 00:55:52,760 Speaker 1: But along with that, they're doing things like running drugs. 854 00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:57,040 Speaker 1: They're doing things like the Phoenix program. Ah, that is 855 00:55:57,040 --> 00:56:00,360 Speaker 1: a whole episode on its own, guys, I have we 856 00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:05,000 Speaker 1: not done that? We gotta do that. The Phoenix program 857 00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,920 Speaker 1: is this widely I would say unknown thing that existed 858 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: during the Vietnam War. It's also widely misunderstood, and my goodness, 859 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:18,120 Speaker 1: if you read official CIA documentation or people writing for 860 00:56:18,360 --> 00:56:21,319 Speaker 1: the CIA about it, you're going to get a very 861 00:56:21,320 --> 00:56:25,560 Speaker 1: different picture than what you'll read from people writing about 862 00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:28,640 Speaker 1: it outside of the CIA. And as is per usual, 863 00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:33,920 Speaker 1: I suppose, but it was it was either an assassination program, 864 00:56:35,160 --> 00:56:36,480 Speaker 1: if you want to call it that, but I think 865 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:40,160 Speaker 1: that's oversimplifying it. It was it was a system of 866 00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:45,560 Speaker 1: infiltrating UH, Vietcong networks as well as attempting to identify 867 00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:48,440 Speaker 1: those networks and individuals who are who are either on 868 00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:52,920 Speaker 1: the military side or just the civilian side. Uh. And 869 00:56:53,000 --> 00:56:58,160 Speaker 1: they operated not just in Vietnam, right exactly. Yeah, you 870 00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:01,080 Speaker 1: know what, let's do a Phoenix Program episode. It will 871 00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:04,200 Speaker 1: be worth it, and it has ramifications they continue in 872 00:57:04,239 --> 00:57:06,360 Speaker 1: the modern day. Yeah, I agreed. And you know what 873 00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:09,400 Speaker 1: they did in the Phoenix Program when they caught someone, 874 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:13,880 Speaker 1: they tortured them. Fun. But you know what I'm thinking about, guys, 875 00:57:14,280 --> 00:57:18,480 Speaker 1: the marks on his arm, the burns on his arm, 876 00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,600 Speaker 1: as well as the burn on his chest, as though 877 00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:26,720 Speaker 1: maybe possibly Thomas Marton was tortured with elextrocution, the ones 878 00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,400 Speaker 1: that were blamed on this, uh, this fan that was 879 00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,000 Speaker 1: so important in the case, no evidence, no evidence for that, 880 00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,960 Speaker 1: just putting it out there. Good torture though, I effective torture, 881 00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:39,040 Speaker 1: I would say it takes time. So if they were 882 00:57:39,040 --> 00:57:41,360 Speaker 1: doing that kind of torture, that would just be purely 883 00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:45,440 Speaker 1: sadism on the part of the assailants. But uh, but 884 00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:48,360 Speaker 1: you know it, it's a point that needs to be made. 885 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,600 Speaker 1: The CIA has manuals on assassination, and if you read them, 886 00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,880 Speaker 1: if you read them or leaked a while back, then 887 00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:02,040 Speaker 1: you will see that, by far, the most preferred method 888 00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:07,160 Speaker 1: for quietly removing someone from the chessboard is to make 889 00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,160 Speaker 1: it look like an accident. That's why Frank Wilson fell. 890 00:58:10,960 --> 00:58:14,320 Speaker 1: That's why this guy calling people who believe he's murdered. 891 00:58:14,360 --> 00:58:17,560 Speaker 1: That's why he suddenly ran into a dangerous fan that 892 00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:20,919 Speaker 1: was totally fine for days before. You wanted to look 893 00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:26,240 Speaker 1: like an accident. So this this stuff with the CIA, 894 00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:29,240 Speaker 1: aside from Phoenix Program, you know there was an illicit 895 00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,960 Speaker 1: drug business. Well we'll talk about that in Phoenix Program 896 00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:36,520 Speaker 1: as well. This led the authors um Turley and Martin 897 00:58:36,680 --> 00:58:41,640 Speaker 1: to say that helping dispose of a nettlesome monk who 898 00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:44,640 Speaker 1: was interfering with the war effort would have been little 899 00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:48,560 Speaker 1: more than routine business for the CIA, because they were 900 00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:53,000 Speaker 1: actually closer with Thai police forces than they were with 901 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,520 Speaker 1: the overall Thai government. That was more of an Uncle 902 00:58:56,600 --> 00:58:59,000 Speaker 1: Sam kind of thing. But the CIA was down in 903 00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:03,640 Speaker 1: the trenches. The issue is that this isn't hard evidence. 904 00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:06,240 Speaker 1: They have a pretty good point. When they knew that 905 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:11,000 Speaker 1: the CIA had easily targeted Martin, and if it had 906 00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:15,240 Speaker 1: targeted him for assassination, it could have reasonably assumed allies 907 00:59:15,280 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 1: in the Thai police force would help facilitate that and 908 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,440 Speaker 1: they would help cover up any loose ends in the aftermath. 909 00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:26,480 Speaker 1: Later investigations do verify. They confirmed that Merton, like many 910 00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:29,240 Speaker 1: other peace activists, as you have mentioned earlier, he was 911 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,480 Speaker 1: on a CIA watch list. His mail was monitored and 912 00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:36,160 Speaker 1: at times illegally intercepted. The FBI was watching as well. 913 00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:41,160 Speaker 1: A group calling itself the Catholic Concerned Citizens had written 914 00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:45,960 Speaker 1: to Kentucky state legislatures asking them to declare Merton a 915 00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:49,480 Speaker 1: dangerous radical. They forwarded it to the CIA, and the 916 00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,520 Speaker 1: CIA was like, oh yeah, no, we're on it. We're 917 00:59:52,560 --> 00:59:55,240 Speaker 1: watching this guy already. Have you read his book The 918 00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:58,440 Speaker 1: Seven Story Mountain. It's actually pretty good anyway. That's how 919 00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:02,600 Speaker 1: they were talking. Uh so, and the ends there's a dilemma. 920 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:05,480 Speaker 1: That's why we said this is unsolved. The authors lay 921 01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:09,280 Speaker 1: out a convincing case that multiple parts of this investigation 922 01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:14,640 Speaker 1: were either bungled or purposefully misleading, and they don't provide 923 01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:18,800 Speaker 1: hard proof that the CIA killed Merton to eliminate his 924 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:23,000 Speaker 1: anti war activities, but they do point to numerous examples 925 01:00:23,040 --> 01:00:29,880 Speaker 1: of CIA assassinations, assassination attempts, and stalking. Perhaps it's best 926 01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,400 Speaker 1: for for you to look into the front of your mind, 927 01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:37,480 Speaker 1: check your shoe, check that pocket we mentioned where you 928 01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:41,560 Speaker 1: remembered the statements of Matthew Fox, who straight up says 929 01:00:41,600 --> 01:00:47,320 Speaker 1: the CIA confirmed Merton was murdered. In his opinion, they 930 01:00:47,360 --> 01:00:50,560 Speaker 1: confirmed it. It's important to note that because if you 931 01:00:50,560 --> 01:00:53,440 Speaker 1: look at the Thomas Murton Society again this is available 932 01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,040 Speaker 1: online as well, you'll see that Matthew Fox actually spoke 933 01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:01,640 Speaker 1: to three CIA agents, not one the two the first 934 01:01:01,640 --> 01:01:04,440 Speaker 1: two we spoke with were in Southeast Asia at the 935 01:01:04,480 --> 01:01:07,120 Speaker 1: time of Merton's death, not at the Red Cross Center 936 01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,080 Speaker 1: at least as far as we know. Uh. Fox had 937 01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,800 Speaker 1: asked them straight up, he said, did you guys kill 938 01:01:12,920 --> 01:01:16,240 Speaker 1: Thomas Murton? And the first replied, I will neither affirm 939 01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:20,720 Speaker 1: nor deny it, which is a standard it's a standard 940 01:01:20,800 --> 01:01:25,560 Speaker 1: spy answer. Uh. The second said, you know, man, we 941 01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,360 Speaker 1: had so much money at the time, we had no 942 01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:34,680 Speaker 1: accountability whatsoever. If any CIA agent felt Merton was a 943 01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:37,320 Speaker 1: threat to the country, they could have just had him killed, 944 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:41,120 Speaker 1: no questions asked. It would like it wouldn't have been 945 01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:43,840 Speaker 1: a big deal, which is somehow even more terrified than 946 01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:46,439 Speaker 1: saying yeah, we did it. We carefully planned it because 947 01:01:46,480 --> 01:01:48,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to get caught. It's more like it 948 01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:51,320 Speaker 1: makes it sound like a four thirty on a Friday decision, 949 01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:55,439 Speaker 1: like you know what, while we're here, I know, while 950 01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:59,919 Speaker 1: we're here, let's just get it knocked out. You ask, hey, yeah, 951 01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:02,480 Speaker 1: could you have killed him? Sure? I don't know, I 952 01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:07,960 Speaker 1: mean maybe you know it was a wild time, that's crazy. Yeah, yeah, 953 01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:10,720 Speaker 1: And and and it should be frightening to people because 954 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:14,640 Speaker 1: that is an answer reflecting the reality of that of 955 01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:19,800 Speaker 1: that era. So then later Fox meets a third CIA 956 01:02:19,840 --> 01:02:23,440 Speaker 1: agent ask him again just point link, did you guys 957 01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:28,080 Speaker 1: kill Thomas Merton, and the agent said the following. Yes, 958 01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:32,200 Speaker 1: The agent replied, adding the last forty years of my 959 01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:34,560 Speaker 1: life I have been cleansing my soul from the actions 960 01:02:34,600 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 1: I was involved in in the name of the CIA 961 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,440 Speaker 1: in Southeast Asia as a young man. I'm sorry, I 962 01:02:39,440 --> 01:02:41,280 Speaker 1: didn't mean to laugh. I just have a hard time 963 01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:45,240 Speaker 1: believing that a CI agent would ever say anything like this. Well, yeah, 964 01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:49,720 Speaker 1: you you have to believe, Matthew Fox, that this actually occurred. 965 01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:56,000 Speaker 1: It's there's no signed affid David from that quote CIA 966 01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,960 Speaker 1: officer who said those things, right, But if it's true 967 01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:05,520 Speaker 1: somebody feels bad about doing something terrible, it's tough that 968 01:03:05,520 --> 01:03:07,720 Speaker 1: that's what this whole story is, right, there's and I 969 01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,560 Speaker 1: think that's what the what the authors of the book 970 01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:16,560 Speaker 1: would say. There's not enough information to conclusively say. We 971 01:03:16,720 --> 01:03:19,280 Speaker 1: just have a lot of questions still right, and we 972 01:03:19,320 --> 01:03:23,600 Speaker 1: know there's opportunity and capability, but that doesn't necessarily mean 973 01:03:23,960 --> 01:03:28,080 Speaker 1: that these events happened. And that's that's where we leave 974 01:03:28,120 --> 01:03:32,080 Speaker 1: it today. Honestly, for Fox, that emission was proof that 975 01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:35,880 Speaker 1: the CIA killed Thomas Murton, and it prompted him to 976 01:03:35,920 --> 01:03:38,520 Speaker 1: say Merton died a martyr for peace, as did his 977 01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,080 Speaker 1: friend Dr Martin Luther King Jr. At the hands of 978 01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:44,160 Speaker 1: the US government. It hasn't been proven yet, but just 979 01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:49,160 Speaker 1: looking at the investigation, it is riddled with problems. And 980 01:03:49,240 --> 01:03:52,640 Speaker 1: at this point we want to hear from you. We 981 01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,680 Speaker 1: want to hear what you think happened to Thomas Murton 982 01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:00,880 Speaker 1: was just just well intentioned bung leaning of a case. 983 01:04:01,160 --> 01:04:04,480 Speaker 1: Was there something more insidious at play? And if so, 984 01:04:05,040 --> 01:04:09,440 Speaker 1: do you agree with the author's idea of the culprit. 985 01:04:10,240 --> 01:04:13,680 Speaker 1: On a personal note, uh with his travel stuff. I 986 01:04:14,480 --> 01:04:17,240 Speaker 1: think I'm gonna be I think I'm gonna view on 987 01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:20,160 Speaker 1: the East Coast for a while. I've had some I've 988 01:04:20,160 --> 01:04:23,120 Speaker 1: had some weird personal times. But I wanted to thank 989 01:04:23,160 --> 01:04:26,440 Speaker 1: everybody who took the time to support the show and 990 01:04:26,840 --> 01:04:30,479 Speaker 1: took the time to drop a little note my way 991 01:04:30,720 --> 01:04:34,800 Speaker 1: or a exciting lead to a future episode. So thank 992 01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:38,840 Speaker 1: you all so much. Also, if you know about a 993 01:04:38,840 --> 01:04:44,320 Speaker 1: another assassination or assassination conspiracy that deserves more attention investigation, 994 01:04:44,480 --> 01:04:46,040 Speaker 1: and we'd love to hear from you. We try to 995 01:04:46,040 --> 01:04:48,240 Speaker 1: make it easy to find us online and we are 996 01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:51,400 Speaker 1: absolutely easy to find and all the usual Internet places 997 01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:54,720 Speaker 1: of note. You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, and 998 01:04:54,840 --> 01:04:58,160 Speaker 1: YouTube at Conspiracy Stuff. You can also find us on 999 01:04:58,280 --> 01:05:01,800 Speaker 1: Instagram at Conspiracy Stuff Show. If you don't want to 1000 01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:03,880 Speaker 1: mess with the social media rigular role, you can give 1001 01:05:03,920 --> 01:05:08,680 Speaker 1: us a telephone call at st d w y t K. Yes, 1002 01:05:08,840 --> 01:05:11,439 Speaker 1: very easy. Just give yourself a cool nickname. The only 1003 01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,760 Speaker 1: one you cannot use is Max Powers Astronaut with a secret. 1004 01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:16,840 Speaker 1: Is that right, guys? Yes? Okay, cool. Let's see the 1005 01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:20,320 Speaker 1: smile from Ben yep, don't use that one, or Mission 1006 01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:26,360 Speaker 1: Control or Doc Holiday codename doc Holiday or I think 1007 01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:31,920 Speaker 1: was it Maddie? Both hands too hands? Both hands feels 1008 01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:35,640 Speaker 1: a bridge too far? Yes, give yourself one of those. 1009 01:05:35,880 --> 01:05:38,600 Speaker 1: It'll be fun for everybody. You've got three minutes say 1010 01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:40,840 Speaker 1: whatever you'd like. We'd love to hear from you in 1011 01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:42,520 Speaker 1: that way. If you have too much to say, they 1012 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:45,480 Speaker 1: won't fit in that three minutes. Please instead send us 1013 01:05:45,480 --> 01:06:00,000 Speaker 1: an email. We are conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. 1014 01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:09,040 Speaker 1: M M M. Stuff they Don't want you to know 1015 01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,240 Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts 1016 01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:14,480 Speaker 1: from my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, 1017 01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:17,440 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.