Speaker 1: I'm Keim Azzarelli and you're listening to Seneca's conversations on
Speaker 1: power and Purpose. I am so delighted to partner with
Speaker 1: Makers on the special six part series called Keep Going.
Speaker 1: In this series, we listen to incredible conversations from Makers
Speaker 1: Conferences with a special focus on d e I. The
Speaker 1: goal is to use these podcasts as a jumping off
Speaker 1: point for conversations about d e I in your own organization.
Speaker 1: I want to give a special thanks to the Maker's
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Speaker 1: about a year ago with founding partner PNG and I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio with the goal of amplifying the voices of
Speaker 1: women around the world. You probably know that podcasting is
Speaker 1: a fast growing industry, with over fifty scent of podcast
Speaker 1: audience being women. But what you may not know is
Speaker 1: that only twenty of top podcasts are hosted by women.
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Speaker 1: reach out to us at info at Seneca Women dot
Speaker 1: com Now, it gives me great pleasure to introduce our
Speaker 1: guest host for the Keep Going series, Amina Brown. Amina
Speaker 1: is a spoken word poet, author and host of the
Speaker 1: podcast Her with Amina Brown on the Seneca Women Podcast Network. Amina,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, Kim. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited to be the guest host of this special
Speaker 1: series and collaboration with Makers. And we have been doing
Speaker 1: some really good learning here and I hope that you
Speaker 1: have been following along with us. Today we're going to
Speaker 1: hear an excerpt from a talk given by Angela Glover Blackwell,
Speaker 1: founder and residence at Policy Link, and her topic micro aggressions.
Speaker 1: The talk took place at Maker's conference, and I am
Speaker 1: still processing so much of what Angela is bringing to
Speaker 1: the table here. Following Angela's talk, I'll be joined by
Speaker 1: the amazing Vernet Myers. Berne is founder of the Verne
Speaker 1: Myers Company and Vice President Inclusion Strategy at Netflix. Bernee
Speaker 1: and I are going to discuss what we're hearing from Angela,
Speaker 1: and Vernet is going to give us some practical suggestions
Speaker 1: that we can all bring back into the workplace. Here's
Speaker 1: Angela Glover Blackwell and I'll be back right after microaggressions.
Speaker 1: They stand in the way. They stand in the way
Speaker 1: every day, all the time, and we have some urgent
Speaker 1: business to attend to. I remember, years ago, many years ago,
Speaker 1: when I was first beginning to practice law, I joined
Speaker 1: a very prestigious public interest law firm. They didn't really
Speaker 1: hire people out of law school, but I had gotten
Speaker 1: a temporary job there right out of law school to
Speaker 1: help to get ready for a tule. People were so
Speaker 1: excited about what I was bringing they quickly developed a
Speaker 1: program that would allow me to be able to join
Speaker 1: the firm. But as a fellow, I joined the fellowship program.
Speaker 1: It was their way to bring me in. But within
Speaker 1: six months they said, oh, just let that go, Just
Speaker 1: come be one of our partners. And I did. But
Speaker 1: there was a woman there who had been what they
Speaker 1: called legal secretary. Then I don't suspect they use that
Speaker 1: language anymore. I have practiced law in twenty years. But
Speaker 1: she was smart as a whip. She understood the law,
Speaker 1: but she wasn't a lawyer. One day, I had gone
Speaker 1: to work, not expecting to have to go into court
Speaker 1: dressed very very casually, and something happened in my case
Speaker 1: was up and I had to go to court. Went
Speaker 1: into the women's room with a couple of other women
Speaker 1: who were there. Borrowed a skirt from somebody, got a
Speaker 1: blouse from somebody else, somebody else had a jacket. Looked
Speaker 1: at myself. I looked pretty good, looked in the mirror
Speaker 1: and said, m does anybody have any lipstick? I think
Speaker 1: I need to add a little color. And this woman,
Speaker 1: who had smart as a whip, knew everything about the law,
Speaker 1: but not a lawyer white woman, said, I thought, that's
Speaker 1: why we brought you in. I was so taken aback.
Speaker 1: I mean I had been friendly with her, she had
Speaker 1: helped me out on a couple of cases, and I thought, not,
Speaker 1: she didn't hurt me. What she did is she exposed herself.
Speaker 1: I thought, I didn't know you were in that kind
Speaker 1: of pain. I could see it, but I didn't know it.
Speaker 1: That was a long time ago for me. Lots of
Speaker 1: things have happened. As I thought of what story I
Speaker 1: was going to tell you, I had to flip through hundreds. Okay,
Speaker 1: but I lifted that one up because it was a
Speaker 1: clear example that it was really about her. It wasn't
Speaker 1: about me at all. But many women in my same position,
Speaker 1: black new attorney wondering how are you doing? Could have
Speaker 1: been deeply wounded by it. We all know about these situations.
Speaker 1: I want you to just stop. Just take thirty seconds
Speaker 1: and turn to somebody and say, it happened to me.
Speaker 1: I heard about it. I was the one who miss stepped, misspoke.
Speaker 1: Just take a minute and bring this reality into this room,
Speaker 1: into all of our lives right now, just a few seconds.
Speaker 1: Turn to the person next to you. It took you
Speaker 1: a second, but you know what I'm talking about. You
Speaker 1: absolutely know what I'm talking about, and you also know
Speaker 1: how to fix it. Oh my mind, this is gonna
Speaker 1: be a good conversation today. I am delighted to welcome
Speaker 1: Verne Meyer's vice president Inclusion Strategy at Netflix and founder
Speaker 1: of the Vernet Myers Company. Verne Welcome, Thank you, Anina,
Speaker 1: happy to be here with you. Okay, let's get into it,
Speaker 1: because the way my neck whipped around in the middle
Speaker 1: of Angela's story. Just now, Okay, let me start with
Speaker 1: this vernet for women specifically and BIPOC folks in general,
Speaker 1: how do you know when or if you should respond
Speaker 1: or address a microaggression? Because we're not getting to hear
Speaker 1: an Angela's story if she addressed this woman directly. And
Speaker 1: I know I have had sometimes I've experienced a microaggression,
Speaker 1: and sometimes it almost stunted me, shocked me, I shouldn't
Speaker 1: say shocked really, but surprised me in a moment that
Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do, and sometimes I was
Speaker 1: afraid of how to respond depending on who did the microaggression.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that you? I was like out,
Speaker 1: So one of the things that I think you have
Speaker 1: to do is you have to do something. The most
Speaker 1: important thing is that we do not internalize these kinds
Speaker 1: of acts or behavior, because then we're the only ones
Speaker 1: in pain. I thought Angela was amazing by just saying, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so sorry you're in so much pain. That is
Speaker 1: an evolved perspective. I think some of the smallest things
Speaker 1: you can do, because yes, that is sort of one
Speaker 1: of the issues around micro necutives. They come from nowhere.
Speaker 1: They may even be unintentional, or they might be purposeful,
Speaker 1: but they have the impact as if someone purposely walked
Speaker 1: up to you and select your face basically, and so
Speaker 1: the only response is to register some response. Sometimes I
Speaker 1: might just say ouch. Sometimes it's about I just look
Speaker 1: at people or make us till or make a face.
Speaker 1: I learned this from my kid. My kid does things
Speaker 1: like awkward, that's just awkward, right, or sometimes people like,
Speaker 1: oh no, you need to catch up on that. I
Speaker 1: don't think that's the right language, or you can so.
Speaker 1: So the main thing I want to say is that
Speaker 1: you don't have to go into a bigg you know workshop.
Speaker 1: This is something that I've learned. You basically need to
Speaker 1: register a response now when I say need to. If
Speaker 1: you can't in that moment, you can come back later
Speaker 1: and you can say maybe you don't want to be
Speaker 1: in the audience, maybe you're a little worried about repercussions.
Speaker 1: You can still call a person and say hey, because
Speaker 1: in this case they work together, so she could like,
Speaker 1: you know what, after do you can we can we
Speaker 1: have a conversation. I was shocked when you said blah
Speaker 1: blah blah because I thought this or that. The upside
Speaker 1: of doing that, for example, is you might hear more
Speaker 1: from that person about what they meant. But the main
Speaker 1: reason why and I know some people say, look, I
Speaker 1: am too tired. I should not have to fix these
Speaker 1: people's ignorance. I totally get all of that, and yet
Speaker 1: unless someone does it. And that's why we like allies,
Speaker 1: because if someone was in that ring and they heard that,
Speaker 1: that would have been an ally of ship move right
Speaker 1: there be like what did you just say? Sometimes all
Speaker 1: you have to do is ask a question, because ultimately
Speaker 1: you're not trying to teach the person. You're not trying
Speaker 1: to do a workshop taking to school. What you're trying
Speaker 1: to do is you're trying to interrupt it so all
Speaker 1: the pain doesn't fall on you and so that person
Speaker 1: can take a beat and think about what they said.
Speaker 1: I love this advice. I love this advice because there
Speaker 1: is a middle ground right there where if you are
Speaker 1: the person that is receiving this microaggression, it's not on you. Two.
Speaker 1: Now open up your large briefcase of the workshop, all
Speaker 1: of the education to this person. But there is a
Speaker 1: way you can respond so that you are not taking
Speaker 1: in sort of the stinger the dagger in this case.
Speaker 1: We gotta stop taking it in. We spend too much
Speaker 1: time taking in and it ruins us inside. It sometimes
Speaker 1: makes us bitter, It makes us um skeptical when we
Speaker 1: should be faithful. Um. We actually cut ourselves off from
Speaker 1: certain relationships because we haven't actually said to that person.
Speaker 1: You know the way you talk about when you say
Speaker 1: things like you you're you've done so well, I mean
Speaker 1: especially as a mother. But you know, now with that
Speaker 1: fourth child, do you think you're gonna be able to
Speaker 1: do this? I mean feigning concern or maybe they really
Speaker 1: are concerned, but deeply on in artful and having gone
Speaker 1: to the bias workshop, right, But you have to be
Speaker 1: able to say because now here's the other thing. Sometimes
Speaker 1: microrectis hit on our sore spot. For us, it is
Speaker 1: a sore spot because we're worried about it, or it's
Speaker 1: a source of spot because it's been said over and
Speaker 1: over again. So you feel like, Heaven, I proved myself,
Speaker 1: Yet I gotta keep proving myself over and over again.
Speaker 1: Or you at you're at the height of something and
Speaker 1: someone says something to take you down or not. I
Speaker 1: had a friend who had just gotten the board. She
Speaker 1: had just started as the executive director of this nonprofit
Speaker 1: and she was being introduced to the full board and
Speaker 1: they shared her resume and as an introduction in all
Speaker 1: of her accolades, and then a she was black woman,
Speaker 1: a white man turned to her on the board and said, Wow,
Speaker 1: you've done a lot. If you've never if you never
Speaker 1: do another thing as a black girl, you should be happy.
Speaker 1: Oh right, doesn't it still hurt? Like you just gotta
Speaker 1: pause on that. Now she's in front of her board,
Speaker 1: the whole board for the first time, she's taking on
Speaker 1: the e D role. What do you do in that situation?
Speaker 1: Because she said, like, my instinct was to say, you know,
Speaker 1: as a white guy, you really haven't achieved a lot. Okay,
Speaker 1: I don't love that, impressed with you, but she like,
Speaker 1: that's not I can't do that in that situation, and
Speaker 1: so she did nothing. And this is why we can
Speaker 1: aunt continue this way because we swallowed too much. But
Speaker 1: it it then allows people to continue to make conversation,
Speaker 1: make comments like that, right, or going up to a
Speaker 1: trans person and asking them about their body. You never
Speaker 1: do that with assist person. Right, Somebody's got to say,
Speaker 1: why are you asking me that question again? Interrupt the bias.
Speaker 1: If you go to touch our hair, someone needs to say, Like,
Speaker 1: if someone tries to put their hands on your hair,
Speaker 1: as a black woman or any other woman whose hair
Speaker 1: somehow people are fascinated by the texture, you need to say,
Speaker 1: I don't know but if you know that, but that's
Speaker 1: actually not allowed. When people commit these atrocities over and
Speaker 1: over again, you know, we call it micro, but it's
Speaker 1: not micro. The impact isn't micro, right, The slight might be,
Speaker 1: but it's like the point about micro aggression or inequities
Speaker 1: is that they're happening over and over again, and they're
Speaker 1: happening with different people over and over again. M hm.
Speaker 1: So like, you know, my Asian colleagues from the US,
Speaker 1: people are constantly complimenting them on their English, and they're like, well,
Speaker 1: thank you, I grew up in Kansas. Appreciate the compliment.
Speaker 1: But that's how people are thinking of them farig in
Speaker 1: different whatever. People don't have as much relationship and as
Speaker 1: much networking with people who are different from themselves, so
Speaker 1: they don't understand the impact what impact this has on
Speaker 1: people's ability to show up to like, believe, to like
Speaker 1: perform it. Sometimes people will say things to you. You You
Speaker 1: go back to your office, you waste a whole hour
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what the person said. Why would
Speaker 1: they have said something like that? What you did wrong?
Speaker 1: Then some of us on the phone with our mothers
Speaker 1: and we're telling you know what, say that's a loss
Speaker 1: of energy. That's a loss of of of productivity. So
Speaker 1: the impact is big. We've got to get away from
Speaker 1: the innocence. No more innocence. Either you don't know and
Speaker 1: you open your heart to be told and see it
Speaker 1: as a gift, or you go and learn and spend
Speaker 1: some time trying to be empathetic and putting yourself in
Speaker 1: the shoes of others. If someone had said that to you,
Speaker 1: someone's questioning your competency over and over again, how would
Speaker 1: that feel. Because most people don't want to do this intentionally.
Speaker 1: Some people do not gonna lie. Some people do, but
Speaker 1: a lot of this falls in the unintentional but nevertheless
Speaker 1: harmful space. Let me ask you one more follow up
Speaker 1: question here, because microaggressions is a thing we experience individually,
Speaker 1: which means it's also a thing that can be addressed individually.
Speaker 1: But how out in the workplace For people who are
Speaker 1: listening that are in the C suite, they are in
Speaker 1: a position where they are overseeing quite a few people,
Speaker 1: you know, in a work team, how can you create
Speaker 1: an environment where microaggressions are either not welcome or where
Speaker 1: microaggressions can be more easily addressed. Because some of how
Speaker 1: microaggressions live is that we haven't really given the proper
Speaker 1: space in our work environment on how we address that.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to close with getting just an answer
Speaker 1: from you on that. So for right now where we are,
Speaker 1: it's not it's unlikely that you're not going to experience
Speaker 1: micro inequities because, like I said, a lot of people
Speaker 1: don't have heterogeneous kind of relationships and um exposure, So
Speaker 1: some people are gonna say the wrong thing, right, somebody
Speaker 1: is going to be surprised that the woman is in
Speaker 1: charge and and come in a room and still be
Speaker 1: looking around for the leader, right, and the person like
Speaker 1: I'm here, thank you very much, especially like the black
Speaker 1: woman or whatever, the Latino you're like okay. So I
Speaker 1: don't even think it makes sense right now to for
Speaker 1: us to be like we're not we're going to eliminate
Speaker 1: all micro in equities because a lot of it is
Speaker 1: just how our brains work and bias, and like we're
Speaker 1: going through categories and schemas and we come up with
Speaker 1: the wrong thing. So what I think we need to
Speaker 1: do is have leaders who model the vulnerability around this.
Speaker 1: Leaders step in it all the time. But how many
Speaker 1: leaders do we set do we see and they go, oh, man,
Speaker 1: I think I just used the wrong word. I think
Speaker 1: I just may have insulted someone. Let me change that right.
Speaker 1: That to watching a leader do that is powerful because
Speaker 1: what it means is that we're not after perfection, but
Speaker 1: we are perfecting and that is important for all of us.
Speaker 1: The other thing is absolutely workshops where you act, you
Speaker 1: get to break down what was the intent, what was
Speaker 1: the impact? What can an ally do, what can an
Speaker 1: individual do? Who is the recipient of that UM comment
Speaker 1: or that act or behavior. It's only not only comments.
Speaker 1: It's not being asked your opinion. It's like never being
Speaker 1: called on. It's giving people furtive glances and weird sort
Speaker 1: of expressions when they speak. It's like complimenting people as
Speaker 1: if they didn't go and get their masters. Wow, that's
Speaker 1: really amazing. So there are so many things that happen.
Speaker 1: And basically, if you go to any group of people,
Speaker 1: and that's another thing you can do. You can go
Speaker 1: to your e r g s. You can go to
Speaker 1: folks who you think UM are an underrepresented groups or
Speaker 1: historically UM excluded folks and say what are your pet peeves?
Speaker 1: What are the main things that you are hearing people
Speaker 1: say that, you would like people to no longer say.
Speaker 1: You can create a document around that, you can create
Speaker 1: a conversation around that. And as I said, all of
Speaker 1: us fall like us, none of us who've got it
Speaker 1: all correct um. And so you might actually use your
Speaker 1: own experience with your teams to talk about what you've
Speaker 1: noticed and where you've tried to go and grow, because
Speaker 1: that gives the space. A lot of this is about,
Speaker 1: you know, and I appreciate the compassion and the kind
Speaker 1: of empathy that we need to create the environment we want.
Speaker 1: We're not there yet. We've got to give people good feedback.
Speaker 1: We've tried to do it without blame, shame, and attack.
Speaker 1: We also need to accept that feedback and change. I
Speaker 1: don't want to hear like, oh I'm so sorry, I'm
Speaker 1: so sorry, but you don't change, or you don't go
Speaker 1: read more about why you were misinformed about you know,
Speaker 1: people going, oh, you live in that neighborhood. Is that safe?
Speaker 1: Now you have just moved your entire family to that
Speaker 1: neighborhood from them from another state or country. Oh, I
Speaker 1: didn't know they had skyscrapers in that country. Really, right,
Speaker 1: They're just so many things that It's a community project,
Speaker 1: is what I would say. This isn't about one person
Speaker 1: being better than another. I mean, some of us are
Speaker 1: much better because we've been in the we've been in
Speaker 1: the recipiency and so we know what we don't want
Speaker 1: to hear, and so we work on it. But we
Speaker 1: need more people to work on it. It will not
Speaker 1: come because you're good. I mean enough of the good people.
Speaker 1: We need people who really want to be their best selves. Yeah, Ferne,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. So much good stuff, y'all.
Speaker 1: Thank you. Oh I wish I could spend more time.
Speaker 1: I super appreciate being here, Mina and take good care
Speaker 1: of yourself. Wow, Erne, thank you so much. Bernie shared
Speaker 1: so many excellent points with us. Let's review. Ask yourself
Speaker 1: three questions that can lead to a more equitable workplace.
Speaker 1: If you're on the receiving end of a microaggression, what conversations, boundaries,
Speaker 1: or self care practices do you need to ensure you
Speaker 1: don't internalize microaggressions when they happen. If you are in leadership,
Speaker 1: how can you model the vulnerability it takes to admit
Speaker 1: where you are wrong when you have said or done
Speaker 1: the wrong thing? And accept feedback and accountability. And this
Speaker 1: is for any of us when you watch microaggressions happen,
Speaker 1: how can you demonstrate ally ship by using your voice
Speaker 1: and speaking up. I love what Verne reminded us of
Speaker 1: today that the work of diversity, equity and inclusion is
Speaker 1: a community project. It's something we all can work on
Speaker 1: in our own lives, and that means there is something
Speaker 1: we can all do to make things better. So let's
Speaker 1: continue to learn together and let's continue to take action
Speaker 1: to make our workplaces are equitable. You're listening to Seneca's
Speaker 1: Conversations on Power and Purpose, brought to you by the
Speaker 1: Seneca Women podcast Network and I Heart Radio with support
Speaker 1: from founding partner PNG. Listen to Seneca's Conversations on power
Speaker 1: and Purpose on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
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Speaker 1: website at Seneca Women dot com