1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,159 Speaker 1: Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shonda 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:10,800 Speaker 1: Land Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: Inventing Anna the Official Podcast, your exclusive look inside the 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: making of the Shonda Land series on Netflix. I'm your host, 5 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: Stacy Wilson Hunt, and today we are dropping into a 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: fascinating conversation between series creator and executive producer Shonda Rhymes 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: and journalist Jessica Pressler, who wrote the New York Magazine 8 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 1: article that Shonda adapted into Inventing Anna. But Jessica didn't 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: just hand off her story to Shonda Land. Her close 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: collaboration with Shonda was vital to the creation of the series. 11 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: These two powerhouses connected recently for an exclusive one on 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: one chat about what drew Shonda to Jessica's story, what 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,360 Speaker 1: Jessica thinks of the series, their theories about Anna Delvey, 14 00:00:51,560 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: and much more. Here we are, Jessica, finally talking about 15 00:01:03,800 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: this whole gigantic project that started with your article. I'm excited. 16 00:01:08,400 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: Do I get to ask questions now because I feel 17 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: like we've had a role reversal where I know it 18 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: does feel a little bit like a role reversal, but no, 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 1: here's what I think we should just have a conversation. 20 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: I'm certainly not going to try to be the reporter 21 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:24,399 Speaker 1: interviewing you. I did want to start by just asking you. 22 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: You're like the expert on this topic as far as 23 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 1: I'm concerned. Oh my god, you're like the Anna expert. 24 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 1: So I wanted you to set the stage for us 25 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: in time, like for people who don't know, like, what 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: was the summer of scam? What was the summer of scam? Okay, 27 00:01:38,160 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: so we go back to a time long before COVID, 28 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,120 Speaker 1: when Donald Trump was president and the Fire Festival was 29 00:01:47,160 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: in the news and everybody was laughing about that cheese 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: sandwich and Bad Blood had just come out with the 31 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:58,440 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes story about their enves, and Anna kind of 32 00:01:58,640 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: slid in and was the kind of the third thing 33 00:02:01,000 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: that made the Summer of scam a trend, like a 34 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,920 Speaker 1: bona fide trend. We've kind of been living with this 35 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: scammy culture for a long time before that, and I 36 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: think that there was something kind of like relieving in 37 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 1: a way to have the Summer of scam because it 38 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, that the Trump scam was so serious, and 39 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: then fire Festival and then and it was just like 40 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: it was kind of like you got to laugh at 41 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: the at the scamminess of the culture a little bit. 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: It kind of just brought the whole, you know, everybody's 43 00:02:33,560 --> 00:02:37,080 Speaker 1: kind of faking it thing kind to the forefront of 44 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:39,839 Speaker 1: the conversation. And then it went on for like a year, 45 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: the whole summer. Yeah, it's the longest summer ever. It 46 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: was a really long summer. It felt like it allowed 47 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: you to laugh at a lot of the ridiculousness of 48 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 1: like Instagram culture are like sort of covetousness of wealth. 49 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: But at the same time, the airs that people put on, 50 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: I meaning with the thara nosed thing, with the airs 51 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: that people put on, the way people pretended to be 52 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: something they weren't. Everybody sort of reveled in it. I remember, 53 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,680 Speaker 1: like I remember, it was all an all those three topics, 54 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: Anna Sars Fire Festival was all anybody was talking about 55 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,520 Speaker 1: for the longest time. Yes, you know what it was. 56 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: It was really like the end of an era in 57 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: some ways. I think it was like the end of 58 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: kind of that like techy slogany we work that happened 59 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: around the same time this whole kind of like buzzy, 60 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: kind of silly Internet culture. It felt like that was 61 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,120 Speaker 1: kind of like an endpoint to that, Like, we recognize 62 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:37,200 Speaker 1: that we've been living in this weird Silicon Valley created 63 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,880 Speaker 1: filtered world where everybody was kind of um, you know, 64 00:03:41,000 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: not quite themselves and posing as somebody else in some 65 00:03:44,560 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: strange way online and things like that. It was all 66 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: a very made up world. And speaking of made up worlds, 67 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: like why don't we talk about the creative liberties that 68 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: the show took well that I tech with Vivian's interactions 69 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: with their bosses is when I read your story about 70 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: Anna and the cut, it was clear to me, and 71 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: I think it was clear to anybody who read this 72 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: article that it was an incredibly fascinating story that deserved 73 00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:12,040 Speaker 1: to be told. But in the series, I have Vivian 74 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: sort of going head to head with her boss's pollen 75 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: land and like just trying to get permission to tell 76 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: the story. But in reality, was it easy for you 77 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,760 Speaker 1: to get buy in from your boss's to write about 78 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,840 Speaker 1: Anna or did you have to fight for it? Yeah? 79 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: I mean the show is a dramatized version for sure. Yeah, 80 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: you've been sled me. She's supposed to be on the 81 00:04:31,640 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: Wall Street me too. Story can we talk about that though, 82 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: she can't just assign herself stories and and brag about 83 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 1: it like she knows best. I don't brag. How can 84 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: you justify doing that story? It definitely wasn't a no 85 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: brainer like easy sell. I mean, doing a big story 86 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: about a non famous person in general is actually kind 87 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: of a difficult thing to get into. You know, a 88 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: seven to ten thousand word story about a non famous person, 89 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: this is a hard sell a little bit um. I 90 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: don't wouldn't say that I went to Rikers in secret. 91 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 1: I kind of just when you know, no one was 92 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:11,440 Speaker 1: really kind of keeping track of where I was. But 93 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: they would have encouraged me to do that if they 94 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,359 Speaker 1: did know. But yeah, I mean that's pretty much my 95 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: answer to it is that there was understandable reluctance to 96 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 1: my wanting to do to devote a lot of time 97 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: to feature about a non famous person. I mean, I 98 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: definitely think that I took advantage of dramatic license in 99 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: terms of trying to tell a story about what happens 100 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: when you have a story you want to tell and 101 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 1: your boss doesn't want you to tell it. I mean, 102 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: otherwise we wouldn't have had the conflict that we needed 103 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: to have in order to tell the story, and Vivian 104 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't have been the hero that she went, you know 105 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 1: what I mean, Like obviously just because a great reporter, 106 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 1: but I needed to amp it up a little bit. 107 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: Wall Street Me Too was real, though, that was real. 108 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: They did want me to do a Wall Stream a story, 109 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 1: and I did react in pretty much that way. You 110 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,760 Speaker 1: did reacted in pretty much that way. And I that 111 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: speech that I wrote for her where she says, I 112 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 1: don't want to use these women for clickbait. That whole 113 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 1: idea of why you didn't want to do Wall Street 114 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: Me Too? That I got from you, Vivienne, What can 115 00:06:14,600 --> 00:06:17,360 Speaker 1: you possibly have against the women of Wall Street proclaiming 116 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: me to nothing? But the women of Wall Street are 117 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:23,719 Speaker 1: not proclaiming me too. They are scared to death for 118 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: their jobs and seeing therapists and trying to cope with 119 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:28,599 Speaker 1: hands the assholes. And you want to launch a woman 120 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,480 Speaker 1: journalist grenade at them to bully them into telling their 121 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: stories from public consumption until these women are traumatized and 122 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: their careers are pulverized to ship. I'm not against the women. 123 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:40,039 Speaker 1: I'm against you using them for clickbait. Because I was 124 00:06:40,120 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: I was like, why doesn't Wall Street Me to a 125 00:06:41,920 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: good story? And you were like, because it's arm Jodi 126 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: and Jody and Rowan and those guys have already done this. 127 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: Here's why Wall Street Me two is not a good idea. 128 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 1: I don't want to mind these women's lives for clickbait. 129 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: And I was like, that's brilliantly smart about why not 130 00:06:53,120 --> 00:06:54,799 Speaker 1: to do it. So there was stuff that was super 131 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: on target that I got literally directly from you. And 132 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: then there was the stuff that, like the idea that 133 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,039 Speaker 1: you were sneaking around and doing your job like against 134 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:06,840 Speaker 1: your boss's will dramatic license. Yeah. Like I also would 135 00:07:06,839 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: never have asked for the money to go to the Hampton's. 136 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: I would have just submitted the receipts afterwards. Very smart, 137 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: but we had to have you have interactions, you know, 138 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 1: we had you have interactions with your bosses. The other 139 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: thing that was real was sort of the description of 140 00:07:21,720 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: a place called Scribe Area. I don't know the people 141 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,400 Speaker 1: itself who are in Scribe Area weren't real, but the 142 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: idea of scribe Area as being like a spot in 143 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 1: the office there is absolutely real. That is a real place, 144 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: was a real place. Yeah, I love that. So much. 145 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: I think people are pretty happy about that. Overall. I 146 00:07:40,480 --> 00:07:43,679 Speaker 1: would say that, like, those are not our former bosses. 147 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: There totally different people. But there was like a spiritually 148 00:07:48,800 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: correct that was pretty much how it went right. I 149 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: like that. I like that it wasn't factually correct, it's 150 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,880 Speaker 1: emotionally correct. I think that was the idea. Yes, yeah, 151 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: I don't think that my goal was ever to make 152 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: a documentary about Jessica Pressler and what it was like 153 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 1: to report the story. As a matter of fact, I 154 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: think I pretty much promised you I wouldn't be making 155 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: a documentary about what it was like torpint the story, 156 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: because you know, your journalists trying to do your job, 157 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: and you didn't sign up to be a character in 158 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: a show, and I think you were a little bit 159 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: reluctant when I was like, maybe it's going to be 160 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 1: like a big part of the show. I remember you 161 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: being like, Okay, that's yeah. I definitely was like, okay, 162 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: like you think that now, but you're going to write 163 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: her out of it later. Not so much. I understood 164 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: why it was happening, and especially because one of the 165 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: writers came to the courthouse like on one of the 166 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: first days of the trial, and we were all there 167 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 1: acting like absolute lunatics, like in front of this writer. 168 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: So I was like, Okay, I get why they think 169 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,079 Speaker 1: this is a good idea, Like there's some really kind 170 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: of wacky stuff happening right now. Yeah, but I definitely 171 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: thought until probably the very last minute, that the journalist 172 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: character was going to get cut. No. I mean also, 173 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: we needed a way in. We needed a way in 174 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:23,079 Speaker 1: to understand this unknowable person and to understand all the 175 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: different points of view going into it, to interview all 176 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: those people, to to step into all of those shoes. 177 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: I felt like you really needed somebody, and you also 178 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: needed somebody who you trusted. In a world in which 179 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: you have an unreliable narrator like Anna, you needed somebody 180 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:40,760 Speaker 1: that you were going to trust no matter what, and 181 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: Vivian was going to be that person. I'm not your friend. 182 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: You don't need to like me. I'm a journalist. I 183 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: want something from you. I want this story. In return, 184 00:09:56,400 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: I can give you what you want. Everybody else had 185 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: a motive in the game, had some skin in the game, 186 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: and Vivian didn't have any skin in the game. She 187 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: was a journalist. Yeah, I was. I was kind of 188 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: trying to figure it out and kind of dragged you 189 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: guys on that journey with me in some way. You did. 190 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:18,560 Speaker 1: It was kind of great, Yeah, it was. It was strange. 191 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: Usually when you're reporting one of these stories, it's sort 192 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,520 Speaker 1: of like circles back on itself, like you start hearing 193 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 1: the same thing from people, and you kind of know 194 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 1: that it's done when when you stopped hearing new stuff. 195 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,080 Speaker 1: But this was just like I kept getting new stuff 196 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: even after the story was published, Like people would call 197 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 1: me and tell me about some experience that they had 198 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: had or their friends had had, and it was just 199 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 1: like this endless series of anecdotes about crazy stuff, like 200 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: the time that she lived with me and sent me 201 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:58,359 Speaker 1: a dead peacock in the mail. I love the peacock. Yeah, 202 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: the stories did keep expanding, ending, And what was great 203 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: was we were already in the writer's room. We were 204 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 1: already working, you know, already working on the stories. And 205 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:09,679 Speaker 1: not only were we doing it while the trial was unfolding, 206 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: but before that, like you went to Germany while we 207 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:16,920 Speaker 1: were writing, and the writers and working, and you were 208 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: like saying like, oh my god, I discovered this, or 209 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: oh I found that. It was just fascinating to be 210 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: in the middle of that process while you were sort 211 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: of still reporting and still researching. Yeah, let's talk about 212 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: the fact that, um, we did make this into a series, 213 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: and that I was like, Hey, you know what about 214 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: this article? I want to make it into a series. 215 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: What did you think at first? I mean, you've already 216 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: had an experience with hustlers, so where you like really 217 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 1: open to the idea where you reluctant? Were you not 218 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: sure how you want to you know that you wanted 219 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: to do it again. What made you think like, yeah, 220 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,200 Speaker 1: I'm cool with turning this into a series. Well, I 221 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,520 Speaker 1: didn't really feel like there was a choice. Frankly, Um, 222 00:11:56,559 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: it was like a kind of insane situation where it 223 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: was going to happen. Someone was going to do it. 224 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 1: It wasn't entirely my decision in New York Magazine was 225 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: part of their decision to Yeah, so it was going 226 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: to happen. Somebody was going to make a show or 227 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: a movie about this, And for me, it just kind 228 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: of became about like, Okay, if you're going to use 229 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: like the characters that I brought into it, then it 230 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: should be the correct person to you know, right enough 231 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,719 Speaker 1: for or a Casey or a Todd Spodeck. So when 232 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:35,680 Speaker 1: you came, it was like, oh, thank god, I felt 233 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: so excited and felt so um. We have these sort 234 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 1: of video interviews with Todd and with Nef and with 235 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: Casey and even with Anna in the Writer's Room. I mean, Anna, 236 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:51,920 Speaker 1: you just went to writer's and you interviewer for us. 237 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: But but what was amazing about that was we all 238 00:12:55,640 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 1: felt this huge amount of responsibility to like portray these 239 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: people in a way that felt respectful and honorable because 240 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:08,599 Speaker 1: they're real people. And I know, like as a journalist, 241 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: I mean that's literally your job. And so how did 242 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,040 Speaker 1: it feel to you to see them turned into characters 243 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 1: television characters? Yeah, I mean, looking back at this, like 244 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: the fact that Hustlers was happening at the same time 245 00:13:23,760 --> 00:13:26,560 Speaker 1: definitely had like kind of a big effect on that, 246 00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: because Hustlers, you know, started shooting right when Anna's trial happened, 247 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: Like it was almost the same day that the Writer's 248 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: Room open. Hustlers started shooting, and the women in that 249 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: the real women, you know, we're texting me because they 250 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 1: were seeing pictures you know, of Constance Wu and like 251 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: THI high boots and reacting to it and you know, 252 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,400 Speaker 1: being like we never wore boots like that. I mean, 253 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: no one was unhappy, everyone was excited. It was just 254 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: kind of like a h it's hard to explain. Like 255 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 1: many years ago, I and tribute Michael Lewis when they 256 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: were in the middle of making Moneyball of the movie 257 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: and some of the real people were there and and 258 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 1: he was like, yeah, they're all really scared because you know, 259 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:12,200 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand people at best read a magazine article, 260 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: but like forty million people see a movie and people 261 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: who don't have any context for you as a human being, 262 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: that becomes who you are, like the person on the 263 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 1: screen becomes who you are. So I kind of was 264 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 1: thinking about that, and Hustlers was a pretty intense thing 265 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:33,680 Speaker 1: because that was, you know, something terrible that these women did, 266 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: that they had gotten past and now there was going 267 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: to be a movie about it, and that was a 268 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: very intense experience for them, and like so kind of 269 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: like wanting to like kind of stick around and like 270 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: they kind of needed somebody to talk to you about that, 271 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: And it's it's not something you can talk to your 272 00:14:48,000 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: friends about. It's not like a relatable problem. To feel 273 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: like I'm being played by pop star in a movie. 274 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: They're making a movie about me. Yeah, So I think 275 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: that that like very much affected kind of how I 276 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: approached this with these guys too. I was like, okay, 277 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 1: like we're all like in this together, and we're going 278 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: to be like, you know, I'm gonna like listen to 279 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: you complain about things if you need to complain about them, 280 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:13,840 Speaker 1: And I cared very much about who was going to 281 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: tell their story. It was for me, it was like 282 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: that's been like that in forefront of my mind, like 283 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: kind of being like, Okay, this is going to be 284 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 1: how people perceived these people possibly forever. It's kind of 285 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: a big deal, but it is a big deal. And 286 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: when you put it like that, you know you want 287 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: these people to be perceived well. For me, what was 288 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: interesting is, you know, I don't know, like I fell 289 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: in love with who net was just by like reading 290 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: the articles and what she had to say. That woman 291 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 1: is so interesting and so complex and so funny, and 292 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: some of the things that came out of her mouth, 293 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: I just thought they were just brilliant. But her observations 294 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 1: were also really interesting and really great and really three dimensional. 295 00:16:03,880 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: And I felt the same way about Casey Duke, who 296 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: was couldn't be more different than that. You know, like, 297 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: these women were fascinating to me, and I wanted to 298 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: capture them in a way that felt like it honored 299 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: who they were. And then you know, you're throwing Todd, 300 00:16:19,280 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: who is Todd but isn't Todd at all in the show, 301 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: but you want to honor them, and even Rachel, who 302 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: wasn't really part of the project, but you want to 303 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: honor that because, first of all, you never want to 304 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:34,280 Speaker 1: destroy your demeanor write a woman badly. You want to 305 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 1: make sure that everybody feels three dimensional and you can 306 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: sort of walk in their shoes. But it was really 307 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: an interesting process to write all of these people and 308 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: their sides of their story. Yeah, especially Anna. It was 309 00:16:48,560 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: hard because you you both needed to judge her and 310 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: not judge her at the same time, and it's a 311 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: tough one exactly. Yeah. And she's very She's a complicated 312 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: person and I think definitely unknowable in some ways. I mean, 313 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: she created a persona to not be known, so it's 314 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,119 Speaker 1: hard to get to know her, and I feel like 315 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: I do in some ways. In other ways, I don't 316 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,960 Speaker 1: know her at all, But yeah, I did like uniquely, 317 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,480 Speaker 1: you know, Adore. All of those people are really really 318 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: fantastic characters in real life. Um, you spent a lot 319 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: of time with all of them. Oh yeah, yeah, definitely. 320 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: I think neugh like was the story for me, Like 321 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: because I was having a hard time getting to know 322 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: Anna when I was writing a magazine story. I didn't 323 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: understand it, and then I met NEF and she was 324 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: just being enough, like telling the story about meeting macaulay 325 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: culkin or possibly not mcaulay culkin. It's it's a fact 326 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: debated all the NEF maintains that it was mcaulay culkin. Um, 327 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: I should just say disclaimer that messages on mcaulay culkin's 328 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,639 Speaker 1: cell phone were not returned. So I did attempt to 329 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: check that fact. But yeah, I mean, she was just 330 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: such a fantastic character that I literally labeled the interview 331 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: with her and her boyfriend at the time like the 332 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,120 Speaker 1: best people in the world. They were just so much 333 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 1: fun to talk to, And I mean Anna always said 334 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:26,159 Speaker 1: she created a great team. So okay, if your one, 335 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:28,159 Speaker 1: it's about that time. Just a quick message from our 336 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: sponsors and now we're back to the interview. Okay, So 337 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: you came out to l A and you visited the 338 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: Shonda Land Inventing Anna Writer's room, And I'm really curious 339 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: to know what you made of that visit. It's very surreal, 340 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: and I immediately attempted to forget all about it. Really, 341 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: um my picture was on the wall, and I was 342 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: like trying to act normal about that and feeling like 343 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 1: really strange that like there was a room where, like 344 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: I was like discussed it had to be weird because 345 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: you were in a room full of people who were like, 346 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: basically you're super fans. Like everybody that room was obsessed 347 00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: with you, but not me, no, with you, because we've 348 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: been basically living off of the Bible of Jessica Pressler says. 349 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: You know, Jessica Pressler says that this is how something 350 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: is reported. Jessica Pressler says that this is how Rikers works. 351 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,879 Speaker 1: Jessica Pressler says, oh my god. So it was like 352 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: this room of Jessica Pressler accolytes who were like Jessica 353 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: Pressler's actually with us. It was a big deal in 354 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: a good way. Weird. Well, you know, I think it 355 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: was like I think I've said this to you before, 356 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: Like it was like healthy for me to like go 357 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: through that experience because I, you know, ask people to 358 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: do that all the time, like, you know, give me 359 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: your story and let me like make a TV show 360 00:19:57,320 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: out of it and or you know, let me make 361 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: an article out of it. But yeah, that's really crazy. 362 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 1: I guess I still kind of can't believe it's a 363 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:09,320 Speaker 1: real thing. Like I remember Jessica saying to me, like 364 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,719 Speaker 1: Google never forgets, and so the room would constantly just 365 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,359 Speaker 1: be like Google forget. Remember Jessica said, people never forget, 366 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: Like there would just be these things that you would 367 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 1: say that like became like the words that we lived by. 368 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: And for a writer making a show, it was great 369 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:30,199 Speaker 1: to have an actual, living, breathing source to speak to. 370 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 1: You know. I'd had that on Scandal, but in a 371 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,199 Speaker 1: different way, because you know, Scandal was just inspired by 372 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: a person, but you were actually inspired by a person, 373 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: but about a certain particular event. So it was like, 374 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: call Jessica and asked her to tell you what it's 375 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:48,160 Speaker 1: like to go to Rikers, and I get this very 376 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: detailed thing about what it's like to go to Rikers, 377 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: and the audience doesn't get to see this, but I 378 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: wrote like a ten page scene about going to Rikers, 379 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: and they shot this thing that it's like when it 380 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:03,200 Speaker 1: together was like thirty minutes long, about exactly what Jessica 381 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: said was like to go to Rikers and I swear 382 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: to you like it's perfect. I loved it so much 383 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: and I wanted to keep it in the show so badly. 384 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: I kept trying to find ways to keep this like 385 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:15,800 Speaker 1: thirty minute visit in because of all the buses and everything. 386 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 1: But you know, even the lady with glitter eyeshadow and 387 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:20,399 Speaker 1: the sign that says you can hug your kids, like 388 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:24,679 Speaker 1: all those little details that you gave really built the 389 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: show for us. They also had the murder wall, Like 390 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 1: I didn't have the pictures on the wall, but they 391 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: actually did have that in the writers are Yeah there, 392 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: hell we did. We did have the wall with everyone's 393 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: photos on them, and we had the crazy, crazy timeline. 394 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 1: We had the whole thing, and we were obsessed with it. 395 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: You didn't have that in your apartment and your baby's nursery. 396 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: I didn't know. I had like spreadsheets, which were way 397 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,199 Speaker 1: less cool. Real people have spreadsheets. Spreadsheets never work on 398 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: television shows. You have to have like some sort of 399 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 1: taping up on a wall all situation somehow in order 400 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,679 Speaker 1: for it to be like a big visual thing. The 401 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 1: Internet stuff is hard. That's another thing that I feel 402 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: like the show does really well, Like you guys integrate 403 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: the Instagram posts and the and the internet einess and 404 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: the texts. We tried really hard with that because of 405 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: how important Instagram was to the concept of image, do 406 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like the image of who 407 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:28,440 Speaker 1: Anna was, and also the idea of Anna's court room 408 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: Instagram fashion thing. Like, we really needed to figure out 409 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 1: ways in which to make the Instagram work for us. 410 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: And I know people probably ask you this all the time, 411 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: but was there like a thing that you know, before 412 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: we ever started talking like that drew you to an 413 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,439 Speaker 1: a character In particular, it was the article, I'm telling you. 414 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,440 Speaker 1: The article was so brilliantly written. It was beautifully written 415 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 1: and painted such a clear picture. It almost felt like 416 00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: a show into itself, like you could read it and 417 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: see the whole thing in your mind. That's what really 418 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: drew me in immediately. It wasn't necessarily Anna herself. It 419 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,880 Speaker 1: was the world that you've created for us that explained 420 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: to us who Anna was and what was going on, 421 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 1: And it made me want to delve deeper. The way 422 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 1: the article lays out is it's really clear to me 423 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: that you need a net piece and a Casey piece 424 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,240 Speaker 1: and a Rachel piece. But as you look at it more, 425 00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:30,399 Speaker 1: and then as I, you know, started talking to you 426 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: and be hand to realize, well, you know, I'm going 427 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: to tell the story the eyes of a journalist in 428 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 1: order to get all the pieces of the story. And 429 00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:39,919 Speaker 1: then there are these little pieces of story that you 430 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: can't really just fold into one of those characters, you know, 431 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: like the what did you call him in the article? 432 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,199 Speaker 1: The character that we call Chase the futurist, the futurist, 433 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: And I was like, we have to find a way 434 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: to capture the futurist um and how are we going 435 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: to do that? And how are we going to capture 436 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:03,479 Speaker 1: the the stuffed Peacock story, which I thought was just 437 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: an amazing story that had to be told. So once 438 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 1: we started thinking about those things, it really became about 439 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: like finding who the interviewee would be so that we 440 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:17,919 Speaker 1: could lay the stories out in a way that allowed 441 00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:21,439 Speaker 1: us to tell all the pieces of Anna's story so 442 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: that they made sense. For instance, like the financial part, 443 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 1: the Wall Street part was hard because we we had 444 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: to kind of invent our way into telling that story correctly, 445 00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 1: using the pieces of your story, the pieces that you 446 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,200 Speaker 1: told us about financial the financial crimes, and the financial reporting, 447 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: to get in there and figure out a way to 448 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:47,959 Speaker 1: tell these stories. That's why it became about telling it 449 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,600 Speaker 1: through the eyes of the reporter, Like telling it through 450 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: Vivian's eyes gave me a way into every last person's 451 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: story in a way that made it possible to have 452 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: a different narratives, to jump around a little bit too. 453 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: Everything did not necessarily need to match up because Vivian 454 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: was gathering and you know this information. It also allowed 455 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: us to slowly build the relationship between Vivian and Todd, 456 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: which I really wanted to do. I thought their friendship 457 00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: was so great and so interesting. Um. I wanted to 458 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: portray like a good marriage, which I thought was important. 459 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,639 Speaker 1: You know, you see these shows and you have these characters, 460 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,119 Speaker 1: and their marriages are always like either the guy's a 461 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: jerk or he's kind of useless or whatever. And I 462 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: just wanted to portray like, here's what a good marriage 463 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: looks like, where a woman is really into her job 464 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: and her husband's actually comfortable with her power. My husband 465 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: loves that character. Good. I'm good. I'm glad because I 466 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 1: wanted him to be somebody who, like you want to 467 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,919 Speaker 1: be married to him, like you want somebody to be 468 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,560 Speaker 1: want to be married to him. And the other thing 469 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 1: is is, I don't know if people in their audience 470 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: know this. Jessica was pregnant. She really was like super 471 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,960 Speaker 1: pregnant while trying to report the story, and like you 472 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,639 Speaker 1: said to me, like I finished the article because I 473 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: had to have the baby, right, And I loved that. 474 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: For some reason, that detail like blew my mind. I 475 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: just thought, like that is the ultimate badass thing, and 476 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: I really wanted to put it in the show. And 477 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: I got so excited by that. I mean, you weren't 478 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: Let's be clear, she wasn't Vivian like super like reluctant 479 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: to have a kid and not that interested in being 480 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,399 Speaker 1: a mother. Like none of that was true. I think 481 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: you already had a child, right, yes, yes, this is 482 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: my second child. But I just I loved the idea 483 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: of somebody like reporting right up to the minute that 484 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: they're basically like leaving to give birth. It just sounded 485 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,280 Speaker 1: so badass to me, and I wanted to put that 486 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 1: in the show. So a lot of the things that 487 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: you told me after we met ended up being sort 488 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 1: of how we shaped the show into its segments, mainly 489 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,080 Speaker 1: because it helped me build the timeline the German An 490 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,439 Speaker 1: episode that going to Germany California. That whole episode it 491 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: was really interesting because it was the aftermath. It was 492 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 1: how do we tell the story of what happens after 493 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,399 Speaker 1: the article is published? How do we get ourselves to 494 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 1: the trial right? I was super impressed with how you 495 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: guys structured it because I do feel like I just 496 00:27:17,680 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 1: gave you like stuff from my handbag. It was like, 497 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: here's like a raisin and three quarters and like some 498 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,840 Speaker 1: gum rappers, Like I just kind of gave you all 499 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:30,040 Speaker 1: this like random stuff, and you put it together in 500 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 1: such an unbelievably clever way, did you guys? The funny 501 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: thing about like real life, I remember saying this to 502 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:38,679 Speaker 1: like one of the writers, is that it you know, 503 00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: it doesn't end right, so it's really hard to find 504 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: an ending point. Was that like a challenge for you 505 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:45,679 Speaker 1: guys to kind of come up with with how to 506 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,840 Speaker 1: like wrap it up? It was really hard to figure 507 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: out how to end it. I remember we had a 508 00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: tenth episode planned for a while where and I went 509 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,119 Speaker 1: to prison and all the things that happened in a 510 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:00,879 Speaker 1: whole bunch of stuff to happ to Anna in prison 511 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: and Vivian visiting her in prison and choosing to stop 512 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: visiting her. What was interesting was it felt like where 513 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: we ended felt right, you know, with the last interaction 514 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: between Vivian and Anna felt right to me, You'll come visiting, 515 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: You'll come visit Ovias. But also like that moment on 516 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: the bus felt right. She's headed off to like a 517 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: whole other series of events in parts unknown, and it's 518 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: not going to be that good. It's not going to 519 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: be great, and I don't know. To me, like it 520 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: felt like that was the best place to end it. 521 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: And when I called you, I think, I don't know 522 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: if people know this, but you're the person who gave 523 00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: the where are they now? You gave me the where 524 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: are they now? Remember that we put at the ends 525 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: of the end of the series, because who else to 526 00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,280 Speaker 1: ask about the journalists like where is everybody now? And 527 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: you gave me these where are they now? Is that 528 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,960 Speaker 1: we're so helpful because you wanted to know where everybody 529 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: ended up and how everybody ended up and you could 530 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: have kept going. I mean, there was so much more 531 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: we could have done with these characters. We could have 532 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: kept going for a while, and so it did feel 533 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: right to just stop when we did. But it was 534 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: hard to decide when there's much more to the story 535 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 1: coming up right after this. M okay, everybody, welcome back 536 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: to Inventing Anna the official podcast. Mm hmm. Here's a question, 537 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,120 Speaker 1: because we were talking about the journalism of the piece, 538 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: what do you feel like Inventing Anna got like wrong 539 00:29:55,160 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: about showing how journalism works for people Like you were 540 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 1: an aspiring journalist and you watched Inventing Anna, and he thought, like, 541 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: that's what being a journalist is. Like, what did we 542 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 1: get wrong? You know, it would be hard for me 543 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 1: to point to something that you got wrong, even when 544 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: I would say, like, maybe, oh, I didn't have these 545 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,719 Speaker 1: like friends who were helping me, who had the time 546 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 1: to like kind of do some research for me. That's true, 547 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 1: But it was also not true because I did have 548 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: these researchers in Germany that I like PayPal to like 549 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: do some research for me, and we did like have 550 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,680 Speaker 1: some like so even like that is a little bit true. 551 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: I mean I think that there are different kinds of journalists, 552 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 1: and most journalists are not long form staff writers at magazines. 553 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: Like it's almost like I had like the last job, 554 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,560 Speaker 1: like one of the last jobs like that in the world, 555 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: so that it wouldn't be like super recognizable to a 556 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: lot of working journalists, Like I would have to be 557 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 1: doing a lot more blog posts and kind of a 558 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,160 Speaker 1: lot more like content turn But that's very typical well 559 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: of like TV stuff. It's like, yeah, you can't like 560 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: like but there's not like an episode where I'm like 561 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: writing a blog that's kind of pouring, you know, or 562 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: like you know, being on slack, Like you can't put 563 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 1: slack into it constantly. It's like you can't. So the 564 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: show paints Vivian, our journalist in the show, as being 565 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 1: sort of super concerned about Anna and as someone who 566 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: has a really hard time remaining neutral in her role 567 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 1: as a journalist. But for you, like in real life, 568 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 1: how hard was it to maintain that objectivity with the 569 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,360 Speaker 1: subject of your story And how concerned were you about 570 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: maintaining that objectivity in real life? Oh wow? Um, I 571 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: mean I can get into the weeds on this one. 572 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: I think Vivian is a lot more concerned about that 573 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: than I am personally. The stuff that we're talking about 574 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,120 Speaker 1: that she gets worried about it is like the courtroom 575 00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: stuff where she's like buying the clothes for her a trial, 576 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: and I'm in court. I can't leave to go shopping. 577 00:31:57,080 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: You can't participating in its defense. That would be unethical, 578 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: crossing a line journalistically. Well, I'm a fucking guy. You 579 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: at least tell me, well, fucking pantyhos one of the funks, 580 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 1: you think panty fine At that exact moment, I was 581 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: not reporting on the story. I wasn't doing what she's doing, 582 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: which is covering the trial. So she's in a slightly 583 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,280 Speaker 1: different situation. But I would say, like in general, again, 584 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: it's like a little bit of a different kind of journalism. 585 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,400 Speaker 1: Like it's not like I work at the New York 586 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: Times and I'm doing breaking news, like I worked in 587 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: New York Magazine and it has this history of of 588 00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: narrative style reporting of first person of you know, gaytales 589 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: and like Joan Didion, like you know, going to parties 590 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: with people. You know. It's it's a certain type of journalism. 591 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,080 Speaker 1: We're allowed to have feelings, were allowed to have opinions, 592 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: were allowed to vote in elections and like a lot 593 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: of political journalists I know, And what I think is 594 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,360 Speaker 1: so interesting staying about the show. One of the things 595 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: that's so great. It does a thing that I haven't 596 00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 1: seen before. That you guys kind of got the kind 597 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: of like emotional aspect of working on these stories. I 598 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: haven't really seen that. I don't think anywhere like that. 599 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,640 Speaker 1: It takes like an emotional toll to work on these 600 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:19,840 Speaker 1: kinds of stories and to get really close to people 601 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,520 Speaker 1: that they're like in your life. You do get close 602 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: to them, and I the whole thing about objectivity, I 603 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: just never really I don't really believe that, Like I like, 604 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,920 Speaker 1: it's almost like you can't deny that you're a person 605 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,560 Speaker 1: or that you have thoughts or the like. Just because 606 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: I like somebody that I'm reporting on, it doesn't change 607 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,000 Speaker 1: the truth or the facts of the story. So I 608 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: don't know how necessary objectivity is. Like I'm not going 609 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: to I know myself, like I'm not going to leave 610 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: something out of a story because I like somebody or 611 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: because it reflects badly on me. Because the job is 612 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,480 Speaker 1: kind of like righte what happened? And if you're kind 613 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,320 Speaker 1: of forcing this objective upon yourself. It's almost like you're 614 00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,480 Speaker 1: starting out from like a weird place of like untruth, 615 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: because you're like denying that. What was interesting to me 616 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: is that what I felt like I was seeing with you, 617 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: not necessarily how I portrayed it, but what I felt 618 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: I was seeing with you in real life was that 619 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:20,279 Speaker 1: your feelings for Anna were relatively complex. I mean, you 620 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: could see her for the for the fault that she had, 621 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: but you still really cared about her as a person, 622 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,600 Speaker 1: and it didn't stop the fact that you had, you know, 623 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 1: a sense of humanity that felt for her and what 624 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,720 Speaker 1: she was going through, and that you could feel sorry 625 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: for her and also be like, she's done some bad 626 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,720 Speaker 1: things and she's you know, has some laws as a person. 627 00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: So it felt like you you did remain objective in 628 00:34:43,200 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: your reporting, but you also did get emotionally invested and 629 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,759 Speaker 1: you became really good friends with Todd. I thought that 630 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 1: was really interesting because you're right, you were no longer 631 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: reporting on the story, You're done reporting on the story, 632 00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,239 Speaker 1: and yet you stayed involved. But you did it in 633 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 1: a way that wasn't you, you you know, like you lost 634 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:03,600 Speaker 1: yourself or you let go, or you went too far, 635 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,080 Speaker 1: you know, you did seem to keep those boundaries, and 636 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: I love what you said about the difference between like 637 00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: working at the New York Times and sort of doing 638 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:14,360 Speaker 1: narrative journalism too. Yeah, I think at the end of 639 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,400 Speaker 1: the day, it's your job is to write what happened, 640 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 1: and as long as you are doing that, as long 641 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,240 Speaker 1: as you're telling the truth about what happened, it doesn't 642 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 1: really matter kind of what your personal feelings are, if 643 00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: that makes any sense. Um, And yeah, I definitely veered between. 644 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,280 Speaker 1: Like I definitely also felt like a sense of responsibility 645 00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 1: to her in the same way that I did the 646 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: other characters, where it's like I feel like when I 647 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,800 Speaker 1: go into a situation, I'm like kind of like a goofy, 648 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,400 Speaker 1: non threatening person. But I've kind of come to realize 649 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: that in fact, like you know, you're you're a little 650 00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:52,040 Speaker 1: bit scary to people because you're going to record their 651 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: truth and you know that's going to be a thing 652 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: that sticks with them for a long time, especially with 653 00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 1: the Internet. So it's just kind of, Um, it's a 654 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: weird relationship that we have with sources, and I think 655 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: that the show is really honest about that, and uh, 656 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 1: it's cool, it's really a neat thing. One of the 657 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,920 Speaker 1: things that we keep talking about is how unknowable Anna is. 658 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: And it's one of the things that I felt so 659 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,080 Speaker 1: strongly while making the series. And I like to say 660 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:22,759 Speaker 1: everything about Anna is true until it's not. Um, do 661 00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:27,080 Speaker 1: you feel like you know her after this entire experience? Okay, 662 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,800 Speaker 1: so you know, it's been a roller coaster with Anna 663 00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 1: because I do like this person. And one of the 664 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: things that I think is so great about the show 665 00:36:37,160 --> 00:36:43,040 Speaker 1: is that it really captures the experience of knowing Anna 666 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: that I had, where you're kind of like veering back 667 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 1: and forth between like is this a good person? Is 668 00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,359 Speaker 1: this a bad person? And I'm still kind of in 669 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,120 Speaker 1: that place with her, like I she will have these 670 00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: moments of incredible sweetness and incredible clarity and the very 671 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: reasonab will and then you know, I will read those 672 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 1: long text exchanges with Rachel Williams that are just an 673 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 1: absolute horror movie that came out in court. It just 674 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:14,880 Speaker 1: is it's terrifying, and it too see that, so it's 675 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: it's complicated. How did you feel about the I'm not 676 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,360 Speaker 1: sorry interview she gave after that I'm not stary? Interview? 677 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:27,080 Speaker 1: Was so classic Anna and that she feels she's being 678 00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 1: very reasonable and pragmatic and also just like shooting herself 679 00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: in the foot at the same time. What was interesting 680 00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:39,400 Speaker 1: about that is that she was kind of doing the defense. 681 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: Like the defense was that to be convicted of grand larceny, 682 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: you have to prove that somebody intended to defraud somebody, right, 683 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 1: So the position that the defense took was and I 684 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 1: didn't intend to defraud people. She intended to pay people back. 685 00:37:55,480 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: She intended to make the foundation. She intended to you know, 686 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 1: make everyone whole again. If the people around me had 687 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,240 Speaker 1: just donned the jobs and the loans would have been approved, 688 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: my trust would have come through, and now I'd be 689 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: sitting on Park Avenue instead of hel with you. That's 690 00:38:11,719 --> 00:38:16,120 Speaker 1: a fact, and whether it was true or not, she 691 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: adamantly swore that that was the case. And so she 692 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: wasn't sorry, Like she wasn't sorry because she did intend 693 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: to pay people back, but she was just kind of 694 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: rudely interrupted by the justice system and people's inability to 695 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:36,040 Speaker 1: sue withstand pressure she put it. Anna says things, It's 696 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: so interesting because when I was writing this story, I 697 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 1: think somebody said this, like like now for somebody's like, 698 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: she'll say these things that are like so like outlandish, 699 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: Like she'll be like, do you know that, like it's 700 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 1: really easy to get somebody killed? And then you're like, 701 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 1: that's just kind of Anna being Anna, imparting information that 702 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: it's actually really easy. And then but I would repeat 703 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,400 Speaker 1: that to somebody and they'd be like horrified, like is 704 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: she threatening you? Like, oh my god, Like she just 705 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 1: says this stuff. She doesn't come off the way that 706 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:08,959 Speaker 1: she wants to all the time. Anyway, She's a complicated person. 707 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:11,120 Speaker 1: I don't really feel like I know her at the 708 00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: end of the day. By the way, like we'll separate 709 00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: out Anna Sarokan, who is a real person from Anna 710 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: delvinnasar Rokan is a real person, and I know her 711 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: a little bit and also not at all. And I 712 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,719 Speaker 1: think that she will reveal herself or not when she 713 00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: wants to. That's like kind of her story. And Adelvi 714 00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: is like a character, it's a persona and I think 715 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: like at the end of the day, I've kind of 716 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: settled on that she's like a shape shifter and she 717 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: is whatever anybody wants her to be in the moment, 718 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:46,520 Speaker 1: and that's kind of why it's a little bit difficult 719 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,919 Speaker 1: to grab a hold of who she is, and being 720 00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 1: a shape shifter and whoever anybody wants to be, she's 721 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,239 Speaker 1: kind of like a reflection of whoever she's in front of, 722 00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: so of all of us. Really, in some ways took 723 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: on characteristics of mine. She took on characteristics of Nets 724 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:08,279 Speaker 1: and Rachel. Yeah, she's a complicated person, but she did 725 00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:10,399 Speaker 1: call me a few times. She's in jail. I don't 726 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,239 Speaker 1: understand why she's still in jail, Like she should be deported. 727 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,920 Speaker 1: I think she's resisting being deported and that's why she's 728 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,880 Speaker 1: still in custody. Mm hmm. It's very confusing. So the 729 00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: last time I spoke to her, I was like, why 730 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,279 Speaker 1: are you still in jail? Go home? And she just 731 00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: really wants to stay in the US. And that to 732 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,719 Speaker 1: me goes back to my theory of Anna, which is 733 00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: maybe not right at all. And I speak frankly and 734 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,640 Speaker 1: that the only Anna I've met is through you. I've 735 00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,880 Speaker 1: never actually met Anna, and that was on purpose. But 736 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: my theory of Anna is the character Anna who is 737 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,040 Speaker 1: a reflection of a lot of people who found herself 738 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:58,160 Speaker 1: seen here, do you know what I mean? Like it 739 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 1: is that thing that Vivian says, I will make you 740 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:04,319 Speaker 1: famous over the world, will know who you are. She 741 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,680 Speaker 1: is seen here, she has known here, and maybe if 742 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 1: she goes home, she's not so known. Maybe it's not 743 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,080 Speaker 1: as viable for her to leave the country and to 744 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: go be somebody else. She did come here in pursuit 745 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 1: of the American dream, and maybe, by God, she's going 746 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: to get it. I don't know, but you know, people 747 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:26,440 Speaker 1: always ask me, like, what do you want people to 748 00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 1: take away from the series, or what do you think 749 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:30,680 Speaker 1: the series is. I don't have an answer for that. 750 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,760 Speaker 1: I can never tell people what what it is I've made. 751 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:40,279 Speaker 1: I just hope that we've reflected the characters in a 752 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: way that feels organic and truthful for the audience. But Anna, 753 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: Anna's a difficult one, she really is. Yeah. I mean 754 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: I did see her when she so she was out 755 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:53,719 Speaker 1: of jail for like a month, a few weeks or 756 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 1: something like that. I did have dinner with her, and 757 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: it was nice. You know, I should put their reservation 758 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 1: under her name, and I had to go say it, 759 00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: and then they kind of gave me a look and 760 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:06,920 Speaker 1: it was a little bit weird. But she had like 761 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: grand plans she's She's got several publicists working with her 762 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,960 Speaker 1: that I've heard from on occasion. We definitely have not 763 00:42:14,080 --> 00:42:16,440 Speaker 1: seen the last of her. But she needs to get 764 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,720 Speaker 1: out of jail. It's very strange that she's still in there. Yeah, 765 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 1: I think it's strange that she's stole in there. And honestly, 766 00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: you know me, I'm on the side of like, everybody 767 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,360 Speaker 1: else got something out of this and Anna went to jail. 768 00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:32,600 Speaker 1: So I'm not so sure that that that's fair, do 769 00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:36,319 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Like, I understand that she 770 00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,879 Speaker 1: did something wrong when I get that, but everybody else 771 00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: got something out of this and Anna went to jail. 772 00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:42,360 Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel about that. It was 773 00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,800 Speaker 1: also the sentence was successive. Yes, I think the judge 774 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 1: said at the sentence saying like she had four to 775 00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,759 Speaker 1: twelve years right, and she said she was giving her 776 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: that longest sentence as a message. I'm not sure exactly 777 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,680 Speaker 1: what the message was. It it did seem like it 778 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:06,280 Speaker 1: was punishment for being a public figure speaking out saying 779 00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: you weren't sorry, which is not the crime that she committed. Actually, 780 00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: she kind of seemed like she was being punished for 781 00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: her behavior during the trial and while she was incarcerated, 782 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,359 Speaker 1: and not for the actual crimes that she did, which 783 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, again all very bad things, 784 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: but it was like it was like two dollars maybe 785 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,839 Speaker 1: which she paid back. It doesn't actually make any sense. Um, Yeah, 786 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,040 Speaker 1: she's in jail for maximizing her public image in a way, 787 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:35,879 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. You're right. I think that's 788 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,239 Speaker 1: a lot of it. Yeah, it's a sad thing. I 789 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: don't know if I answered the question or not. I 790 00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 1: don't know either, but yeah, it's complicated, complicated. Indeed, thank 791 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: you so much for listening everyone. Next week, I'll be 792 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 1: back with the real Nef Davis, Anna's hotel concierge for 793 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:04,520 Speaker 1: and confidante. I'm loyal to Anna, but I'm not a dummy. 794 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 1: I'm friends with Anna, but I do have boundaries and 795 00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:14,799 Speaker 1: most importantly, Anna will never come before my money. If 796 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 1: you're enjoying this show, please subscribe, share with your friends, rate, 797 00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:21,400 Speaker 1: or leave us a review. All of that good stuff. 798 00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:25,320 Speaker 1: And if you haven't finished Shonda Lands Inventing Anna on Netflix, 799 00:44:25,520 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: please go do that. We really don't want to spoil 800 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:33,280 Speaker 1: it for you. Inventing Anna, the official podcast is executive 801 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:38,040 Speaker 1: produced by Sandy Bailey, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins. 802 00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:41,319 Speaker 1: Our producer and editor is Nicholas Harder, and the show 803 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:53,520 Speaker 1: was produced and hosted by me Stacy Wilson Hunt Inventing Anna. 804 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,320 Speaker 1: The official podcast is a production of Shonda land Audio 805 00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,480 Speaker 1: in partnership with I heart Radio. For more podcasts from 806 00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:02,800 Speaker 1: Shonda lan Audio, visit the I heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 807 00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.