WEBVTT - Did CIA Kill JFK? (with Gus Russo) (ENCORE) 0:00:15.082 --> 0:00:17.041 John and I are on break. Now we're on a 0:00:17.082 --> 0:00:21.081 secret mission and this before all new Mission Implausible episodes 0:00:21.122 --> 0:00:23.642 come out this fall. But for now, we'll bring you 0:00:23.682 --> 0:00:26.842 one of our favorite past episodes and we'll soon be 0:00:26.922 --> 0:00:29.202 launching our YouTube channel. See you there. 0:00:30.602 --> 0:00:33.682 I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a 0:00:33.762 --> 0:00:37.042 CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts 0:00:37.082 --> 0:00:38.802 in Europe, Russia, and in Asia. 0:00:38.842 --> 0:00:41.922 And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East 0:00:42.001 --> 0:00:42.922 and in war zones. 0:00:43.242 --> 0:00:47.082 We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 0:00:47.322 --> 0:00:51.002 Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy 0:00:51.042 --> 0:00:52.802 theories large and small. 0:00:53.081 --> 0:00:55.522 Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated? 0:00:56.042 --> 0:00:58.121 This is Mission Implausible. 0:01:00.442 --> 0:01:03.682 So today's guest is Gus Russo. He's an investigative reporter 0:01:03.842 --> 0:01:07.442 and writer. He's an author of many books on subjects 0:01:07.642 --> 0:01:12.002 from JFK to to Fidel Castro, gangsters, the FBI, CIA, 0:01:12.322 --> 0:01:13.801 and so, Gus, it's great to have with. 0:01:13.722 --> 0:01:14.402 You with us today. 0:01:14.962 --> 0:01:16.322 Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. 0:01:16.682 --> 0:01:18.202 I'm sort of one of these people that has dug 0:01:18.242 --> 0:01:21.081 into everything related to mar I wanted to talk you 0:01:21.081 --> 0:01:25.402 about RFK Junior is resurrecting a conspiracy theory that the 0:01:25.441 --> 0:01:27.842 CIA was behind the murder of President John F. 0:01:27.922 --> 0:01:28.322 Kennedy. 0:01:28.521 --> 0:01:30.842 And you've written some You've written a lot about this 0:01:30.962 --> 0:01:32.401 in fact, and so could you tell us a little 0:01:32.441 --> 0:01:34.842 bit about that conspiracy. It's something that just doesn't seem 0:01:34.842 --> 0:01:36.761 to die. And Jerry and I get it all the time. 0:01:37.002 --> 0:01:39.961 It's one of the craziest ones because there's no evidence 0:01:40.042 --> 0:01:42.402 at all that the CIA did it. It's just total 0:01:42.482 --> 0:01:46.002 theory based on pretty much nothing. I lived through it. 0:01:46.042 --> 0:01:48.202 I was interested in this case back in the seventies. 0:01:48.442 --> 0:01:51.802 I attended the House Select Committee on Assassination's hearings. The 0:01:51.842 --> 0:01:55.642 open hearings interviewed a lot of people. My theory about 0:01:55.882 --> 0:01:58.922 why they say this is that we all lived through 0:01:58.962 --> 0:02:02.362 the Church Committee years and when the Church Committee fingered 0:02:02.362 --> 0:02:05.442 the CIA for doing all these plots around the world, 0:02:05.602 --> 0:02:08.162 it left an impression on a generation that the CIA 0:02:08.362 --> 0:02:11.162 is the source of all evil. And I think we 0:02:11.242 --> 0:02:16.162 all might agree that those operations were am entirely the 0:02:16.282 --> 0:02:19.162 branch out of the white houses that were around, whether 0:02:19.202 --> 0:02:22.962 it's Eisenhower or Kennedy, but a young generation thought that 0:02:23.042 --> 0:02:26.962 the CIA masterminded all these plots and coups and everything, 0:02:27.362 --> 0:02:29.762 and that stuck with a lot of people, even in 0:02:29.802 --> 0:02:32.722 the face of subsequent evidence to the contrary. I do 0:02:32.762 --> 0:02:35.401 you really look at it hard. What they go back 0:02:35.442 --> 0:02:40.042 to is a phrase that President Kennedy allegedly said after 0:02:40.082 --> 0:02:42.082 the Bay Pig. Tom Wicker wrote an article in The 0:02:42.121 --> 0:02:45.362 New York Times about the Bay of Pigs and thirty 0:02:45.401 --> 0:02:48.482 pages in he put a quotation in there that came 0:02:48.522 --> 0:02:52.161 from an anonymous source that heard from another anonymous source. 0:02:52.202 --> 0:02:54.522 The President Kennedy said, I'm going to tear the CIA 0:02:54.602 --> 0:02:56.962 to a thousand pieces. There's no way to know if 0:02:56.962 --> 0:02:58.802 you ever said it, because we have no way of 0:02:58.882 --> 0:03:00.922 knowing where it came from. I don't believe he ever 0:03:00.962 --> 0:03:03.962 said it, and the people of the intelligence field who 0:03:03.962 --> 0:03:06.721 were back and there in those days also say they 0:03:06.722 --> 0:03:09.642 have no idea that he ever said it. In fact, 0:03:09.762 --> 0:03:13.802 President Kennedy doubled the CIA's budget and ivoy it and 0:03:13.841 --> 0:03:17.802 got an internal ci A report of their relationship with 0:03:17.882 --> 0:03:23.402 all presidential administrations, and by far the best relationship they 0:03:23.442 --> 0:03:27.202 had was with JFK. That's what they said. So that's it. 0:03:27.322 --> 0:03:30.121 Based on this quote that Kennedy was going to tear 0:03:30.162 --> 0:03:32.682 the CIA into a thousand pieces, which he obviously didn't do, 0:03:33.162 --> 0:03:36.242 and that he fired Alan Dulles, who was his CIA 0:03:36.322 --> 0:03:38.202 director at the time of the Bay of Pigs. And 0:03:38.282 --> 0:03:41.202 he didn't fire Alan Dulles. In reality, all you have 0:03:41.242 --> 0:03:44.202 to do is read Dulles's biographies and you'll see that 0:03:44.282 --> 0:03:47.522 Dulles offered his resignation after the Bay of Pigs and 0:03:47.602 --> 0:03:49.962 Kennedy turned him down. Kennedy said, no, Alan, you're a 0:03:50.002 --> 0:03:52.002 friend of the family. We wanted you to stay on 0:03:52.082 --> 0:03:54.602 when you wanted to retire. Anyway, you only stayed on 0:03:54.642 --> 0:03:57.041 because we begged you to. He didn't want to be there, 0:03:57.242 --> 0:03:59.442 and he was saying, come on, let me resign and 0:03:59.482 --> 0:04:02.002 you'll look better and I'll be retired. Please stay on. 0:04:02.602 --> 0:04:06.482 He offered three times to resign. Finally, in the fall, 0:04:07.162 --> 0:04:09.562 four or five months after the Bad Pigs, Kennedy said, 0:04:09.602 --> 0:04:11.962 I guess you should go. The heat is getting too much. 0:04:11.962 --> 0:04:15.402 But thank you, you've been great. He stayed close friends 0:04:15.442 --> 0:04:17.922 with Dallan Dallis, as did Robert Kennedy. We'd have all 0:04:17.922 --> 0:04:20.522 the letters back and forth between them. One of the 0:04:20.522 --> 0:04:24.402 most telling things is that when LBJ set up the 0:04:24.402 --> 0:04:27.602 Warren Commission, it was Robert Kennedy, who pretty much demanded 0:04:27.962 --> 0:04:31.402 that Johnson put Dulles on the Warren Commission. He was 0:04:31.402 --> 0:04:33.402 like an uncle to the book, to the Kennedy brothers, 0:04:33.602 --> 0:04:35.042 and against that, they have this one. 0:04:34.922 --> 0:04:39.442 Alleged quote, if Kennedy was going to rip the CIA 0:04:39.482 --> 0:04:43.042 in one thousand pieces, replace it with something else, replace personnel, 0:04:43.242 --> 0:04:45.882 as there'd be paperwork involved in that. 0:04:45.962 --> 0:04:47.242 Right from Kennedy's. 0:04:46.802 --> 0:04:50.042 Paper, He'd be giving orders, there'd be discussions that would 0:04:50.042 --> 0:04:54.322 be in the NSC. So making a simple declarative sentence, 0:04:54.322 --> 0:04:57.042 whether he made it or not, doesn't mean he's. 0:04:56.962 --> 0:04:57.602 Going to file through. 0:04:57.642 --> 0:05:00.362 And if he was going to follow through, CIA would 0:05:00.442 --> 0:05:02.362 know it because they would know through the NSC they'd 0:05:02.402 --> 0:05:04.402 be talking about replacements personnel. 0:05:04.642 --> 0:05:06.402 There's no evidence of any of that. 0:05:06.842 --> 0:05:10.122 Let me ask you, there are some real conspiracies, and 0:05:10.202 --> 0:05:12.082 I think you did some digging in front out. There 0:05:12.082 --> 0:05:14.802 actually is a conspiracy around this, and the conspiracy is 0:05:15.602 --> 0:05:20.962 that the Soviet intelligence services used money and their influence 0:05:21.042 --> 0:05:23.882 to try to push this conspiracy theory. 0:05:24.242 --> 0:05:24.762 Is that true? 0:05:25.002 --> 0:05:28.482 Yeah, that's true. Disinformation is certainly real, and I think 0:05:28.602 --> 0:05:31.602 what we're going through now, it's my contention that they 0:05:31.642 --> 0:05:35.922 perfected disinformation. The Soviets at the time, came up with 0:05:36.002 --> 0:05:39.402 the CIA, created ads, The CIA tried to kill the pope. 0:05:39.842 --> 0:05:43.602 The CII did everything, but this was their laboratory, the 0:05:43.682 --> 0:05:47.922 Kennedy case, and it started immediately after with getting books published, 0:05:48.042 --> 0:05:52.122 magazine articles, newspaper articles. They would read our stuff, as 0:05:52.122 --> 0:05:55.042 you know, they read our papers and books and find 0:05:55.042 --> 0:05:58.082 a way to insert into our own narrative little things 0:05:58.082 --> 0:06:00.322 that would seem to make sense. I will agree, I 0:06:00.322 --> 0:06:03.722 wouldn't call that a conspiracy. That's just intelligence world. 0:06:04.242 --> 0:06:07.682 Well, Russian intelligences conspired to say what can we do 0:06:07.802 --> 0:06:10.042 to create a price grotory and put it into their 0:06:10.082 --> 0:06:13.042 systems in a way, conspiracy just more than one person 0:06:13.082 --> 0:06:16.002 coming up with the plan to do something. And frankly, 0:06:16.482 --> 0:06:19.322 Gus there was some connections between the CIA and the 0:06:19.402 --> 0:06:22.762 jfk assassination, not in the fact that any CIA people 0:06:22.762 --> 0:06:25.442 were involved in it. But as you remember, there was 0:06:25.482 --> 0:06:29.922 a Russian, a Soviet defector named Urinasenko who came to 0:06:30.042 --> 0:06:33.042 the United States around that time, and he had known 0:06:33.082 --> 0:06:36.362 Lee Harvey Oswald. He had seen Lee Harvey Oswald's file 0:06:36.842 --> 0:06:39.042 when he worked for the KGB second chief director at 0:06:39.042 --> 0:06:41.642 the internal part of it. Sure of course, this created 0:06:41.762 --> 0:06:44.242 inside the government a big oh my god, you know 0:06:45.122 --> 0:06:48.562 where the Russians involved in the assassination. They've interviewed him, 0:06:48.602 --> 0:06:50.402 and they looked at him and they thought that, you know, 0:06:50.722 --> 0:06:52.922 there's no way he would because he's a marine and 0:06:53.322 --> 0:06:55.682 he defected to the Soviet Union. Therefore, they'd be greatly 0:06:55.682 --> 0:06:57.362 interested in him and they would use him as a 0:06:57.362 --> 0:06:58.202 potential assassin. 0:06:58.362 --> 0:07:01.042 John lb Jay knew pretty quickly that Russia had nothing 0:07:01.042 --> 0:07:05.082 to do with it because NSA was bugging Nikita's dasha 0:07:05.282 --> 0:07:09.122 and his other residences and they heard him talking about, 0:07:09.162 --> 0:07:11.922 oh my god, how did this happen? This guy lived here? 0:07:12.322 --> 0:07:13.802 Oh my god, they're going to think we did it. 0:07:13.882 --> 0:07:16.602 And the NSA report that back to Johnson and that 0:07:16.762 --> 0:07:19.282 sort of put that away for the government. We knew 0:07:19.322 --> 0:07:21.762 Russia didn't have anything to do with it, but Russia 0:07:21.842 --> 0:07:23.962 was so concerned that we might think that they sent 0:07:24.122 --> 0:07:26.522 Uri over to make sure we knew they had nothing 0:07:26.522 --> 0:07:30.002 to do with it. But for me, the fascinating mystery, 0:07:30.322 --> 0:07:33.322 I don't want to take conspiracy, but the lasting mystery 0:07:33.362 --> 0:07:35.722 of that whole thing is what happened in Mexico with 0:07:35.802 --> 0:07:39.522 Oswald hanging with Cubans for about a week. And that 0:07:39.682 --> 0:07:41.602 is I've dug up a lot of things there that 0:07:41.682 --> 0:07:43.922 make it look like they knew what was going to happen, 0:07:44.122 --> 0:07:47.042 that Oswald was going to do this, and that has 0:07:47.122 --> 0:07:50.562 never been investigated by the government at all. Warren Commission 0:07:50.842 --> 0:07:53.762 didn't look into it. The House Committee spent two days 0:07:53.802 --> 0:07:57.202 down there. Our researcher. We hired a detective for a 0:07:57.242 --> 0:07:59.602 documentary I did, and we spent he spent about a 0:07:59.722 --> 0:08:03.322 year dredging up embassy sources who were there when Oswald 0:08:03.482 --> 0:08:05.882 was there for us, and we learned a lot. And 0:08:05.922 --> 0:08:08.362 by the way, I interviewed during Nasenko for a documentary 0:08:08.442 --> 0:08:12.202 I did with Peter Jennings probably twenty years ago. When 0:08:12.242 --> 0:08:14.722 I did a show with Croplind back in ninety three 0:08:15.002 --> 0:08:17.882 called Who was Lee Harvey Oswald? It was a big undertaking. 0:08:18.402 --> 0:08:21.082 We spent two years traveling the world interviewing. We had 0:08:21.082 --> 0:08:25.362 a big budget. Our senior producer, Mike Sullivan, said, let's 0:08:25.362 --> 0:08:27.602 find out first if Oswald pulled the trigger, Let's see 0:08:27.602 --> 0:08:30.522 who shot him first, and we could work backwards from him. 0:08:30.522 --> 0:08:32.562 That's the easiest way to do it. And so we 0:08:32.602 --> 0:08:35.402 spent the first few months trying to figure out forensically 0:08:35.922 --> 0:08:39.442 ballistically who did it? And it was overwhelming. Oswald fired 0:08:39.482 --> 0:08:41.722 all the shots and then it became a lot easier 0:08:41.722 --> 0:08:44.082 to see who he was connected to, which was nobody, 0:08:44.442 --> 0:08:47.202 and we went We really worked hard, We tried to 0:08:47.562 --> 0:08:50.202 do the due diligence, and it just didn't hang up. 0:08:50.242 --> 0:08:50.682 Hold up. 0:08:50.722 --> 0:08:53.122 He was the ultimate loaner, no doubt about it. 0:08:53.562 --> 0:08:55.962 I think that's why conspiracies get built up, right, how 0:08:56.042 --> 0:09:00.402 is it possible that this absolute loser could impact world history? 0:09:00.442 --> 0:09:03.402 And so people have to create stories to fill that void. 0:09:03.802 --> 0:09:06.881 And Lee Harvey Altiswalld had a very powerful gun, that 0:09:07.002 --> 0:09:10.402 Carcato rifle. We spoke to all the ballistics people, this 0:09:10.442 --> 0:09:11.962 is a gun you did not want to get in 0:09:11.962 --> 0:09:14.482 front of. This thing is like a cannon. And he 0:09:14.562 --> 0:09:17.882 was good with it. I held his Marine targets in 0:09:17.962 --> 0:09:20.202 my hand, and he was a good shooter at two 0:09:20.242 --> 0:09:23.362 hundred yards with a bolt action weapon. I can go 0:09:23.562 --> 0:09:25.802 with this ballistic stuff forever. But I'd just say that 0:09:26.162 --> 0:09:28.442 this was an easy shot. People who say it was 0:09:28.442 --> 0:09:30.602 a hard shot, I asked them, where did you hear that? 0:09:30.642 --> 0:09:32.162 And they say, I don't know if somebody told me. 0:09:32.522 --> 0:09:34.962 When you really look at it, it was a really 0:09:35.002 --> 0:09:38.442 easy shot. You only hit twice, two hits in nine 0:09:38.522 --> 0:09:42.362 seconds from a target that's moving slowly away from him. 0:09:42.642 --> 0:09:45.322 It was nothing anybody could have learned to do that shot. 0:09:45.522 --> 0:09:48.962 In the CIA officers, we're not saying there's no conspiracy, 0:09:49.002 --> 0:09:52.642 there's no possibility of it. There are permutations be between 0:09:53.122 --> 0:09:55.842 Oswald did it on his own and Oswald was a. 0:09:55.842 --> 0:09:58.802 Dupe and a stooge of the Russians of the CIA. 0:09:59.122 --> 0:10:01.802 It certainly possibly he could have mentioned this too while 0:10:01.842 --> 0:10:04.322 he was in Mexican talking to the Soviets. A low 0:10:04.402 --> 0:10:06.402 level guy would write it up and send it in 0:10:06.402 --> 0:10:09.322 in the KGB archives. Or he could have told Cuban 0:10:09.362 --> 0:10:13.362 intelligence officers when he's down there, I'm gonna get Kennedy. 0:10:12.922 --> 0:10:14.842 Which does exactly what he said, exactly what. 0:10:15.282 --> 0:10:15.522 Yeah. 0:10:15.522 --> 0:10:19.282 So for us, though, it's is their proof, and in 0:10:19.322 --> 0:10:22.642 the intelligence world, you don't want to be pretty sure 0:10:23.162 --> 0:10:26.842 when the possibility of getting it wrong is nuclear war. 0:10:27.002 --> 0:10:27.162 Right. 0:10:27.202 --> 0:10:29.082 When the Warren Report. 0:10:28.842 --> 0:10:32.002 Was written, the concern was that if people really came 0:10:32.042 --> 0:10:34.922 to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that it was the 0:10:34.962 --> 0:10:37.482 Soviets that did it, they were concerned that there'd be 0:10:37.522 --> 0:10:40.802 forty million dead inside it three hours, right, if we 0:10:40.882 --> 0:10:43.842 point the finger wrongly and things get out of control. 0:10:43.882 --> 0:10:47.242 So today we don't really think about that so much, except, 0:10:47.282 --> 0:10:53.082 of course, when we have WMD in Iraq, where agency officers, 0:10:53.202 --> 0:10:56.082 analysts who Johnny and I know some of them. They 0:10:56.122 --> 0:11:00.482 were pretty darn sure that there was WMD in Iraq, right, 0:11:00.842 --> 0:11:02.602 I mean they saidam said he had it. 0:11:02.802 --> 0:11:04.722 There was reporting that it was there. 0:11:04.922 --> 0:11:07.962 He had it in the past, He's threatened to use it, 0:11:08.642 --> 0:11:11.602 but we didn't have proof that it was there. 0:11:11.682 --> 0:11:14.842 We just were like pretty sure. And so same for 0:11:15.002 --> 0:11:18.082 the Warren Report. Weld onto the second. Well, we take 0:11:18.082 --> 0:11:19.202 a quick break. 0:11:31.922 --> 0:11:37.002 And we're back. I've been a few literally thousands of 0:11:37.002 --> 0:11:40.242 people on this subject over the years, and what I concluded, 0:11:40.362 --> 0:11:43.362 what I learned from them. Johnson feared World War three 0:11:43.762 --> 0:11:47.402 was going to break out, and he was terrified of that. 0:11:48.042 --> 0:11:52.482 So when the Warren Commission was formed, he instructed the 0:11:52.522 --> 0:11:55.682 FBI to not investigate Mexico City. He was afraid of 0:11:55.722 --> 0:11:58.522 where it might lead. Yeah, and I'm hanging on my wall. 0:11:58.522 --> 0:12:00.362 A letter from the FBI guy who went down to 0:12:00.402 --> 0:12:03.882 Mexico City, the only Spanish speaker who could go down 0:12:03.882 --> 0:12:06.842 and investigate the Cubans. He went down that night and 0:12:07.122 --> 0:12:09.322 he was called in his hotel rooms and he was 0:12:09.362 --> 0:12:12.922 told that Johnson had told Hoover to tell him do 0:12:13.042 --> 0:12:15.682 not leave your room, don't talk to anybody while the 0:12:15.762 --> 0:12:18.042 trail was hot. I just don't want to go there. 0:12:18.162 --> 0:12:20.682 He was terrified. Even though he knew that the Kruse 0:12:20.762 --> 0:12:23.922 Jef didn't push this thing. He was worried that if 0:12:23.922 --> 0:12:26.761 they found that the Castro was behind it, Americans would 0:12:26.802 --> 0:12:31.082 demand retaliation against Castro, which would bring the Russians in 0:12:31.522 --> 0:12:34.202 like they had a year earlier during the missile crisis, 0:12:34.402 --> 0:12:37.042 which was right at the front of Johnson's mind. The 0:12:37.082 --> 0:12:39.962 crisis had just happened, so he was worried that Cuba 0:12:40.082 --> 0:12:41.842 might have had something to do with this, or was 0:12:41.922 --> 0:12:45.322 involved or had knowledge, and he didn't want to go there. 0:12:46.002 --> 0:12:49.602 So there was no investigation of Oswald in Mexico. And 0:12:49.842 --> 0:12:54.202 another interesting thing, Bobby Kennedy was the one who put Duallas, 0:12:54.282 --> 0:12:58.242 his family friend, on the Warren Commission. Dulles knew about 0:12:58.482 --> 0:13:02.242 the plots that Robert Kennedy with the CIA were trying 0:13:02.282 --> 0:13:05.522 to pull off against Fidel, and Dulles never told the 0:13:05.522 --> 0:13:08.682 other commissioners they were dying to know why a pro 0:13:08.802 --> 0:13:12.562 Castro guy like Oswald would shoot Kennedy, and Dallas said, 0:13:12.562 --> 0:13:14.922 I have no idea, and they looked at him and said, 0:13:15.482 --> 0:13:18.202 were we doing anything to piss off Lee? Harvey Oswald 0:13:18.522 --> 0:13:22.602 and the Warrenck Commission attorneys that I've interviewed said when 0:13:22.642 --> 0:13:25.482 they found out about these plots via the Church Committee, 0:13:25.842 --> 0:13:30.002 they were incensed at the lives of Alan Dulles. They 0:13:30.002 --> 0:13:33.442 were looking for this motive. Why a pro Castro guy 0:13:33.442 --> 0:13:35.562 would shoot Kennedy made no sense. We were at peace 0:13:35.602 --> 0:13:39.642 with Castro allegedly, and Dulles zipped up. That was a 0:13:39.642 --> 0:13:40.962 favorite of Robert Kennedy. 0:13:41.122 --> 0:13:44.202 In my opinion, we've come to the conclusion that the 0:13:44.282 --> 0:13:47.122 big conspiracy that the CIA was behind it is not true. 0:13:47.122 --> 0:13:49.522 But are there things that still need to be figured 0:13:49.562 --> 0:13:51.482 out or we should still look into? 0:13:51.882 --> 0:13:54.762 For me, the only thing would get my attention in 0:13:54.802 --> 0:13:58.602 the newspaper if Castro opened up his archives, which won't happen. 0:13:58.842 --> 0:14:01.282 And also there are archives in Mexico City that we 0:14:01.362 --> 0:14:03.641 got a peek at because they did their own investigation 0:14:03.762 --> 0:14:08.002 in Mexico. The National Archives, at my behest tried for 0:14:08.162 --> 0:14:11.202 years to get those from Mexico and couldn't get them. 0:14:11.482 --> 0:14:15.322 The sneak peaks we've had are that there was Cuban 0:14:15.402 --> 0:14:18.322 contact with Oswald. I'll tell you the story. We were 0:14:18.322 --> 0:14:21.282 told by the operatives who were in the Cuban embassy 0:14:21.322 --> 0:14:24.002 in Mexico City, who were there at the time. They 0:14:24.002 --> 0:14:26.682 said that Oswald came in. They didn't know who he was, 0:14:27.522 --> 0:14:30.882 and when he didn't get a visa, immediately he went nuts. 0:14:30.922 --> 0:14:32.602 And then he went over to the Russian embassy and 0:14:32.642 --> 0:14:36.042 went nuts. And he thought they would know of him 0:14:36.162 --> 0:14:38.722 because he had handed out leaflets in New New Orleans 0:14:38.882 --> 0:14:41.322 pro Castro and he wanted to be at whatever a 0:14:41.362 --> 0:14:45.242 spy for Fidel and he got so mad. And according 0:14:45.282 --> 0:14:49.722 to Castro, we know this from Castro's own lips, Oswald said, 0:14:50.082 --> 0:14:52.682 I'll kill that bastard Kennedy for you. I'll show you now. 0:14:52.722 --> 0:14:56.362 Castro told us that through telling that to his confidants, 0:14:56.362 --> 0:14:59.362 who reported it back to the FBI. After he says 0:14:59.402 --> 0:15:04.642 that Cuban intelligence operatives in that embassy started to hang 0:15:04.682 --> 0:15:06.722 out with this guy during the week that he was there, 0:15:06.762 --> 0:15:09.402 which we know nothing, or we felt we knew nothing. 0:15:09.762 --> 0:15:12.162 They wanted to suss this guy out see if he 0:15:12.202 --> 0:15:14.162 was a Nutter if he really was going to do this. 0:15:14.282 --> 0:15:17.362 They even offered in money, and they told us in 0:15:17.402 --> 0:15:20.562 our documentary that he turned it down. It wasn't about money, 0:15:20.602 --> 0:15:23.282 it was ideology. They said, if you do this, you'll 0:15:23.322 --> 0:15:26.282 be a hero. Keep in mind when people ask me 0:15:26.322 --> 0:15:29.082 if there was a conspiracy, I say, well, it depends 0:15:29.082 --> 0:15:32.762 on your definition. It's a conspiracy of silence. I'm convinced 0:15:32.802 --> 0:15:34.282 that Cubans knew he was going to try to do 0:15:34.362 --> 0:15:37.522 it and encouraged him because he'd Jeff Gabe been trying 0:15:37.562 --> 0:15:39.962 to get a Castro for two years. I don't know 0:15:40.122 --> 0:15:44.122 if you know Brian Lttel, former CIA officer, He ran 0:15:44.202 --> 0:15:47.122 the Cuba desk for the agency in the eighties, and 0:15:47.522 --> 0:15:50.922 they told Brian that well, in the morning of the assassination, 0:15:51.242 --> 0:15:54.842 he was in the G two headquarters Cuban Intelligence in Havana, 0:15:55.322 --> 0:15:58.642 when work came down from Fidel to redirect all the 0:15:58.682 --> 0:16:02.802 surveillance issues that were pointed at Miami, where JM waves 0:16:02.802 --> 0:16:06.122 CIA base was, and turned them to Texas. This is 0:16:06.162 --> 0:16:10.882 from a Cuban defector to Brian Lttel, And why do 0:16:10.882 --> 0:16:14.482 you want to point it Texas? The answer was something's 0:16:14.522 --> 0:16:16.562 going to have and I want to be the first 0:16:16.562 --> 0:16:19.922 to know from Padel So the word got to him 0:16:19.962 --> 0:16:23.362 that something might happen in Texas and he wore to 0:16:23.362 --> 0:16:27.202 know immediately. And I believe this got back to Johnson, 0:16:27.282 --> 0:16:29.522 this kind of stuff, because he was in touch with 0:16:29.642 --> 0:16:32.562 Mexican with the Mexicans, he had great friends in Mexicano, 0:16:32.602 --> 0:16:36.282 including the president. And I'm convinced from people I spoke 0:16:36.322 --> 0:16:38.322 to that he was told that night there's more to 0:16:38.362 --> 0:16:41.162 this than just this guy. He was hanging out with 0:16:41.202 --> 0:16:43.322 the wrong people, and that this gets out, it's all 0:16:43.362 --> 0:16:45.282 going to blow up. And Johnson just said, I'm not 0:16:45.322 --> 0:16:45.802 going there. 0:16:46.082 --> 0:16:49.042 And CIA, we have something called duty to warn. It's 0:16:49.042 --> 0:16:52.642 a law, and if we know about an assassination attempt 0:16:52.682 --> 0:16:56.082 coming up against a foreign official, even an unfriendly one, 0:16:56.642 --> 0:16:58.562 we are honor not honored. 0:16:58.562 --> 0:17:01.842 We are legally bound to tell them this. Now. 0:17:01.842 --> 0:17:03.442 We don't have to go into great detail, we don't 0:17:03.442 --> 0:17:06.002 have to give away sourcing. And I can remember one 0:17:06.042 --> 0:17:08.561 time in the Philippines there was an advancer of a 0:17:08.601 --> 0:17:12.121 country that is very hastile to us, and we had 0:17:12.162 --> 0:17:15.321 heard that Islamis were looking to kill him, and I 0:17:15.362 --> 0:17:16.802 had to have a meeting with him. 0:17:16.882 --> 0:17:17.442 I sat down. 0:17:17.522 --> 0:17:20.601 His bodyguards were there, and I said, look, you know 0:17:20.602 --> 0:17:21.042 who I am. 0:17:21.122 --> 0:17:22.962 I'm the CIA, and does. 0:17:22.802 --> 0:17:23.682 A plant to kill you? 0:17:24.122 --> 0:17:29.042 And he laughed because in their you know, this authoritarian government, 0:17:29.322 --> 0:17:30.321 they would never do this. 0:17:30.602 --> 0:17:33.642 And he laughed at me. But he did increase his security. 0:17:33.722 --> 0:17:38.081 So they know the Russian, the Russians of the Cubans 0:17:38.082 --> 0:17:38.762 wouldn't do that. 0:17:38.922 --> 0:17:42.442 So they didn't hire him. So there goes the cute 0:17:42.482 --> 0:17:46.601 Castro did it conspiracy? But Castro knew And if you 0:17:46.642 --> 0:17:49.202 call that a conspiracy, find in fact, we were told 0:17:49.282 --> 0:17:52.762 many details from these Cuban operatives that they encouraged him 0:17:52.842 --> 0:17:55.402 Oswald if he wanted to try this, and that he'd 0:17:55.442 --> 0:17:57.642 be a hero, even to the extent that they said, 0:17:57.682 --> 0:18:00.202 we'll rescue you if you pulled this off. That's what Well, 0:18:00.242 --> 0:18:02.002 I only had one source on that, so I didn't 0:18:02.002 --> 0:18:04.242 put it in my book, but I believe him, and 0:18:04.322 --> 0:18:07.522 he said Oswald was on his way to rendezvous with 0:18:07.562 --> 0:18:10.882 the Russians when Officer Tippett stopped. And remember he shot 0:18:10.922 --> 0:18:14.081 Officer Tippet. Most people forget about that, poor guy. He 0:18:14.162 --> 0:18:17.642 shot four times point blank by Oswald. So Tippett may 0:18:17.682 --> 0:18:20.682 have stopped a rendezvous and the farthest extension of that 0:18:20.802 --> 0:18:23.362 story is he said, we told out to what would 0:18:23.362 --> 0:18:25.442 fly him to Havana if he pulled this off? And 0:18:25.482 --> 0:18:27.442 he said, but we were going to do that. I said, 0:18:27.482 --> 0:18:28.682 what are you going to do? So we're going to 0:18:28.722 --> 0:18:30.082 dump him into the Gulf of Mexico. 0:18:30.562 --> 0:18:33.362 So we've talked a little bit about this about the 0:18:33.762 --> 0:18:36.122 CIA's involved or did it? And it comes up again 0:18:36.162 --> 0:18:38.002 and again. So to go back to where we started 0:18:38.002 --> 0:18:42.162 on RFK Junior, there's this view and then Amaryllis Fox, 0:18:42.162 --> 0:18:45.242 who is married to his son, former CIA officer for 0:18:45.282 --> 0:18:49.482 a couple of years inside, there's this All we need 0:18:49.522 --> 0:18:51.682 to do is get into the CIA archives. We get 0:18:51.722 --> 0:18:54.882 into the Intelligent Comunity Archives. It'll answer this question for us. 0:18:54.882 --> 0:18:58.362 And we've talked about what that actually means and why 0:18:58.442 --> 0:19:01.081 stuff might not yet be put out because there are 0:19:01.122 --> 0:19:03.922 real reasons for that, not to cover up reasons for that. 0:19:04.802 --> 0:19:08.002 You're someone who digs into the paperwork and the archives 0:19:08.002 --> 0:19:10.202 and the research. What is your view on what the 0:19:10.242 --> 0:19:12.601 CIA is put out and do you think there's a 0:19:12.682 --> 0:19:16.202 smoking gun and what hasn't been put Oh. 0:19:16.122 --> 0:19:19.362 Not at all. I've been researching at the National Archives 0:19:19.402 --> 0:19:21.922 since the eighties and I also went to the CIA 0:19:21.922 --> 0:19:23.762 a couple times because they wanted to hear more about 0:19:23.762 --> 0:19:26.282 what I had uncovered in Mexico. They brought me down 0:19:26.282 --> 0:19:29.242 to headquarters. But as far as what the CIA has, 0:19:29.482 --> 0:19:33.122 people don't understand that everything has been released. What these 0:19:33.122 --> 0:19:36.482 people are talking about are cleaner versions of some of 0:19:36.522 --> 0:19:40.442 these pages. Every page is out, some with reactions. They 0:19:40.482 --> 0:19:45.202 want those reactions unredacted, those reactions, and I've got them 0:19:45.362 --> 0:19:47.602 their microscopic. It's not like there's gonna be a great 0:19:47.642 --> 0:19:51.402 new narrative. It's two words, and it's usually a person's name. 0:19:51.922 --> 0:19:55.042 It's all sources and I've seen the documents and that's 0:19:55.082 --> 0:19:57.042 all it can be. There's not going to be any 0:19:57.082 --> 0:19:58.962 smoking gun. It's going to be a name of some 0:19:59.162 --> 0:20:02.762 Cuban guy who was talking to a CIA guy in 0:20:02.802 --> 0:20:05.242 my in Nevada, and he would get killed if that 0:20:05.362 --> 0:20:07.561 came out, and he may still be alive. Because these 0:20:07.562 --> 0:20:11.442 guys were in their twenties, and I'm against getting rid 0:20:11.442 --> 0:20:13.882 of those redactions. Promises were made to people, as you 0:20:13.922 --> 0:20:16.121 guys know, when you're out there, we'll protect you if 0:20:16.122 --> 0:20:18.322