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Speaker 1: John and I are on break. Now we're on a

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Speaker 1: secret mission and this before all new Mission Implausible episodes

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Speaker 1: come out this fall. But for now, we'll bring you

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Speaker 1: one of our favorite past episodes and we'll soon be

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Speaker 1: launching our YouTube channel. See you there.

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Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. I was a

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Speaker 2: CIA officer stationed around the world in high threat posts

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Speaker 2: in Europe, Russia, and in Asia.

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Speaker 3: And I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, the Middle East

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Speaker 3: and in war zones.

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Speaker 1: We sometimes created conspiracies to deceive our adversaries.

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Speaker 2: Now we're going to use our expertise to deconstruct conspiracy

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Speaker 2: theories large and small.

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Speaker 3: Could they be true? Or are we being manipulated?

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Speaker 2: This is Mission Implausible.

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Speaker 4: So today's guest is Gus Russo. He's an investigative reporter

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Speaker 4: and writer. He's an author of many books on subjects

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Speaker 4: from JFK to to Fidel Castro, gangsters, the FBI, CIA,

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Speaker 4: and so, Gus, it's great to have with.

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Speaker 3: You with us today.

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Speaker 5: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 4: I'm sort of one of these people that has dug

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Speaker 4: into everything related to mar I wanted to talk you

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Speaker 4: about RFK Junior is resurrecting a conspiracy theory that the

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Speaker 4: CIA was behind the murder of President John F.

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Speaker 3: Kennedy.

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Speaker 4: And you've written some You've written a lot about this

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Speaker 4: in fact, and so could you tell us a little

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Speaker 4: bit about that conspiracy. It's something that just doesn't seem

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Speaker 4: to die. And Jerry and I get it all the time.

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Speaker 5: It's one of the craziest ones because there's no evidence

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Speaker 5: at all that the CIA did it. It's just total

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Speaker 5: theory based on pretty much nothing. I lived through it.

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Speaker 5: I was interested in this case back in the seventies.

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Speaker 5: I attended the House Select Committee on Assassination's hearings. The

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Speaker 5: open hearings interviewed a lot of people. My theory about

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Speaker 5: why they say this is that we all lived through

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Speaker 5: the Church Committee years and when the Church Committee fingered

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Speaker 5: the CIA for doing all these plots around the world,

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Speaker 5: it left an impression on a generation that the CIA

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Speaker 5: is the source of all evil. And I think we

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Speaker 5: all might agree that those operations were am entirely the

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Speaker 5: branch out of the white houses that were around, whether

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Speaker 5: it's Eisenhower or Kennedy, but a young generation thought that

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Speaker 5: the CIA masterminded all these plots and coups and everything,

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Speaker 5: and that stuck with a lot of people, even in

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Speaker 5: the face of subsequent evidence to the contrary. I do

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Speaker 5: you really look at it hard. What they go back

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Speaker 5: to is a phrase that President Kennedy allegedly said after

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Speaker 5: the Bay Pig. Tom Wicker wrote an article in The

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Speaker 5: New York Times about the Bay of Pigs and thirty

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Speaker 5: pages in he put a quotation in there that came

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Speaker 5: from an anonymous source that heard from another anonymous source.

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Speaker 5: The President Kennedy said, I'm going to tear the CIA

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Speaker 5: to a thousand pieces. There's no way to know if

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Speaker 5: you ever said it, because we have no way of

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Speaker 5: knowing where it came from. I don't believe he ever

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Speaker 5: said it, and the people of the intelligence field who

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Speaker 5: were back and there in those days also say they

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Speaker 5: have no idea that he ever said it. In fact,

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Speaker 5: President Kennedy doubled the CIA's budget and ivoy it and

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Speaker 5: got an internal ci A report of their relationship with

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Speaker 5: all presidential administrations, and by far the best relationship they

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Speaker 5: had was with JFK. That's what they said. So that's it.

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Speaker 5: Based on this quote that Kennedy was going to tear

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Speaker 5: the CIA into a thousand pieces, which he obviously didn't do,

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Speaker 5: and that he fired Alan Dulles, who was his CIA

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Speaker 5: director at the time of the Bay of Pigs. And

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Speaker 5: he didn't fire Alan Dulles. In reality, all you have

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Speaker 5: to do is read Dulles's biographies and you'll see that

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Speaker 5: Dulles offered his resignation after the Bay of Pigs and

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Speaker 5: Kennedy turned him down. Kennedy said, no, Alan, you're a

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Speaker 5: friend of the family. We wanted you to stay on

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Speaker 5: when you wanted to retire. Anyway, you only stayed on

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Speaker 5: because we begged you to. He didn't want to be there,

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Speaker 5: and he was saying, come on, let me resign and

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Speaker 5: you'll look better and I'll be retired. Please stay on.

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Speaker 5: He offered three times to resign. Finally, in the fall,

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Speaker 5: four or five months after the Bad Pigs, Kennedy said,

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Speaker 5: I guess you should go. The heat is getting too much.

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Speaker 5: But thank you, you've been great. He stayed close friends

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Speaker 5: with Dallan Dallis, as did Robert Kennedy. We'd have all

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Speaker 5: the letters back and forth between them. One of the

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Speaker 5: most telling things is that when LBJ set up the

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Speaker 5: Warren Commission, it was Robert Kennedy, who pretty much demanded

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Speaker 5: that Johnson put Dulles on the Warren Commission. He was

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Speaker 5: like an uncle to the book, to the Kennedy brothers,

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Speaker 5: and against that, they have this one.

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Speaker 6: Alleged quote, if Kennedy was going to rip the CIA

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Speaker 6: in one thousand pieces, replace it with something else, replace personnel,

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Speaker 6: as there'd be paperwork involved in that.

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Speaker 3: Right from Kennedy's.

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Speaker 6: Paper, He'd be giving orders, there'd be discussions that would

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Speaker 6: be in the NSC. So making a simple declarative sentence,

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Speaker 6: whether he made it or not, doesn't mean he's.

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Speaker 3: Going to file through.

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Speaker 6: And if he was going to follow through, CIA would

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Speaker 6: know it because they would know through the NSC they'd

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Speaker 6: be talking about replacements personnel.

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Speaker 3: There's no evidence of any of that.

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Speaker 4: Let me ask you, there are some real conspiracies, and

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Speaker 4: I think you did some digging in front out. There

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Speaker 4: actually is a conspiracy around this, and the conspiracy is

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Speaker 4: that the Soviet intelligence services used money and their influence

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Speaker 4: to try to push this conspiracy theory.

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Speaker 3: Is that true?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's true. Disinformation is certainly real, and I think

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Speaker 5: what we're going through now, it's my contention that they

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Speaker 5: perfected disinformation. The Soviets at the time, came up with

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Speaker 5: the CIA, created ads, The CIA tried to kill the pope.

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Speaker 5: The CII did everything, but this was their laboratory, the

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Speaker 5: Kennedy case, and it started immediately after with getting books published,

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Speaker 5: magazine articles, newspaper articles. They would read our stuff, as

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Speaker 5: you know, they read our papers and books and find

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Speaker 5: a way to insert into our own narrative little things

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Speaker 5: that would seem to make sense. I will agree, I

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Speaker 5: wouldn't call that a conspiracy. That's just intelligence world.

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Speaker 4: Well, Russian intelligences conspired to say what can we do

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Speaker 4: to create a price grotory and put it into their

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Speaker 4: systems in a way, conspiracy just more than one person

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Speaker 4: coming up with the plan to do something. And frankly,

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Speaker 4: Gus there was some connections between the CIA and the

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Speaker 4: jfk assassination, not in the fact that any CIA people

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Speaker 4: were involved in it. But as you remember, there was

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Speaker 4: a Russian, a Soviet defector named Urinasenko who came to

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Speaker 4: the United States around that time, and he had known

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Speaker 4: Lee Harvey Oswald. He had seen Lee Harvey Oswald's file

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Speaker 4: when he worked for the KGB second chief director at

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Speaker 4: the internal part of it. Sure of course, this created

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Speaker 4: inside the government a big oh my god, you know

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Speaker 4: where the Russians involved in the assassination. They've interviewed him,

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Speaker 4: and they looked at him and they thought that, you know,

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Speaker 4: there's no way he would because he's a marine and

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Speaker 4: he defected to the Soviet Union. Therefore, they'd be greatly

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Speaker 4: interested in him and they would use him as a

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Speaker 4: potential assassin.

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Speaker 5: John lb Jay knew pretty quickly that Russia had nothing

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Speaker 5: to do with it because NSA was bugging Nikita's dasha

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Speaker 5: and his other residences and they heard him talking about,

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Speaker 5: oh my god, how did this happen? This guy lived here?

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Speaker 5: Oh my god, they're going to think we did it.

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Speaker 5: And the NSA report that back to Johnson and that

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Speaker 5: sort of put that away for the government. We knew

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Speaker 5: Russia didn't have anything to do with it, but Russia

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Speaker 5: was so concerned that we might think that they sent

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Speaker 5: Uri over to make sure we knew they had nothing

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Speaker 5: to do with it. But for me, the fascinating mystery,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to take conspiracy, but the lasting mystery

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Speaker 5: of that whole thing is what happened in Mexico with

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Speaker 5: Oswald hanging with Cubans for about a week. And that

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Speaker 5: is I've dug up a lot of things there that

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Speaker 5: make it look like they knew what was going to happen,

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Speaker 5: that Oswald was going to do this, and that has

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Speaker 5: never been investigated by the government at all. Warren Commission

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Speaker 5: didn't look into it. The House Committee spent two days

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Speaker 5: down there. Our researcher. We hired a detective for a

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Speaker 5: documentary I did, and we spent he spent about a

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Speaker 5: year dredging up embassy sources who were there when Oswald

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Speaker 5: was there for us, and we learned a lot. And

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Speaker 5: by the way, I interviewed during Nasenko for a documentary

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Speaker 5: I did with Peter Jennings probably twenty years ago. When

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Speaker 5: I did a show with Croplind back in ninety three

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Speaker 5: called Who was Lee Harvey Oswald? It was a big undertaking.

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Speaker 5: We spent two years traveling the world interviewing. We had

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Speaker 5: a big budget. Our senior producer, Mike Sullivan, said, let's

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Speaker 5: find out first if Oswald pulled the trigger, Let's see

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Speaker 5: who shot him first, and we could work backwards from him.

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Speaker 5: That's the easiest way to do it. And so we

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Speaker 5: spent the first few months trying to figure out forensically

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Speaker 5: ballistically who did it? And it was overwhelming. Oswald fired

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Speaker 5: all the shots and then it became a lot easier

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Speaker 5: to see who he was connected to, which was nobody,

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Speaker 5: and we went We really worked hard, We tried to

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Speaker 5: do the due diligence, and it just didn't hang up.

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Speaker 3: Hold up.

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Speaker 5: He was the ultimate loaner, no doubt about it.

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Speaker 4: I think that's why conspiracies get built up, right, how

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Speaker 4: is it possible that this absolute loser could impact world history?

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Speaker 4: And so people have to create stories to fill that void.

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Speaker 5: And Lee Harvey Altiswalld had a very powerful gun, that

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Speaker 5: Carcato rifle. We spoke to all the ballistics people, this

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Speaker 5: is a gun you did not want to get in

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Speaker 5: front of. This thing is like a cannon. And he

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Speaker 5: was good with it. I held his Marine targets in

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Speaker 5: my hand, and he was a good shooter at two

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Speaker 5: hundred yards with a bolt action weapon. I can go

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Speaker 5: with this ballistic stuff forever. But I'd just say that

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Speaker 5: this was an easy shot. People who say it was

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Speaker 5: a hard shot, I asked them, where did you hear that?

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Speaker 5: And they say, I don't know if somebody told me.

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Speaker 5: When you really look at it, it was a really

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Speaker 5: easy shot. You only hit twice, two hits in nine

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Speaker 5: seconds from a target that's moving slowly away from him.

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Speaker 5: It was nothing anybody could have learned to do that shot.

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Speaker 6: In the CIA officers, we're not saying there's no conspiracy,

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Speaker 6: there's no possibility of it. There are permutations be between

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Speaker 6: Oswald did it on his own and Oswald was a.

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Speaker 3: Dupe and a stooge of the Russians of the CIA.

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Speaker 6: It certainly possibly he could have mentioned this too while

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Speaker 6: he was in Mexican talking to the Soviets. A low

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Speaker 6: level guy would write it up and send it in

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Speaker 6: in the KGB archives. Or he could have told Cuban

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Speaker 6: intelligence officers when he's down there, I'm gonna get Kennedy.

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Speaker 5: Which does exactly what he said, exactly what.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: So for us, though, it's is their proof, and in

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Speaker 6: the intelligence world, you don't want to be pretty sure

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Speaker 6: when the possibility of getting it wrong is nuclear war.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 7: When the Warren Report.

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Speaker 6: Was written, the concern was that if people really came

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Speaker 6: to the conclusion, rightly or wrongly, that it was the

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Speaker 6: Soviets that did it, they were concerned that there'd be

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Speaker 6: forty million dead inside it three hours, right, if we

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Speaker 6: point the finger wrongly and things get out of control.

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Speaker 6: So today we don't really think about that so much, except,

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Speaker 6: of course, when we have WMD in Iraq, where agency officers,

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Speaker 6: analysts who Johnny and I know some of them. They

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Speaker 6: were pretty darn sure that there was WMD in Iraq, right,

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Speaker 6: I mean they saidam said he had it.

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Speaker 3: There was reporting that it was there.

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Speaker 6: He had it in the past, He's threatened to use it,

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Speaker 6: but we didn't have proof that it was there.

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Speaker 7: We just were like pretty sure. And so same for

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Speaker 7: the Warren Report. Weld onto the second. Well, we take

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Speaker 7: a quick break.

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Speaker 5: And we're back. I've been a few literally thousands of

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Speaker 5: people on this subject over the years, and what I concluded,

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Speaker 5: what I learned from them. Johnson feared World War three

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Speaker 5: was going to break out, and he was terrified of that.

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Speaker 5: So when the Warren Commission was formed, he instructed the

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Speaker 5: FBI to not investigate Mexico City. He was afraid of

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Speaker 5: where it might lead. Yeah, and I'm hanging on my wall.

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Speaker 5: A letter from the FBI guy who went down to

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Speaker 5: Mexico City, the only Spanish speaker who could go down

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Speaker 5: and investigate the Cubans. He went down that night and

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Speaker 5: he was called in his hotel rooms and he was

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Speaker 5: told that Johnson had told Hoover to tell him do

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Speaker 5: not leave your room, don't talk to anybody while the

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Speaker 5: trail was hot. I just don't want to go there.

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Speaker 5: He was terrified. Even though he knew that the Kruse

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Speaker 5: Jef didn't push this thing. He was worried that if

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Speaker 5: they found that the Castro was behind it, Americans would

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Speaker 5: demand retaliation against Castro, which would bring the Russians in

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Speaker 5: like they had a year earlier during the missile crisis,

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Speaker 5: which was right at the front of Johnson's mind. The

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Speaker 5: crisis had just happened, so he was worried that Cuba

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Speaker 5: might have had something to do with this, or was

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Speaker 5: involved or had knowledge, and he didn't want to go there.

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Speaker 5: So there was no investigation of Oswald in Mexico. And

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Speaker 5: another interesting thing, Bobby Kennedy was the one who put Duallas,

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Speaker 5: his family friend, on the Warren Commission. Dulles knew about

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Speaker 5: the plots that Robert Kennedy with the CIA were trying

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Speaker 5: to pull off against Fidel, and Dulles never told the

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Speaker 5: other commissioners they were dying to know why a pro

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Speaker 5: Castro guy like Oswald would shoot Kennedy, and Dallas said,

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Speaker 5: I have no idea, and they looked at him and said,

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Speaker 5: were we doing anything to piss off Lee? Harvey Oswald

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Speaker 5: and the Warrenck Commission attorneys that I've interviewed said when

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Speaker 5: they found out about these plots via the Church Committee,

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Speaker 5: they were incensed at the lives of Alan Dulles. They

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Speaker 5: were looking for this motive. Why a pro Castro guy

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Speaker 5: would shoot Kennedy made no sense. We were at peace

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Speaker 5: with Castro allegedly, and Dulles zipped up. That was a

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Speaker 5: favorite of Robert Kennedy.

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Speaker 4: In my opinion, we've come to the conclusion that the

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Speaker 4: big conspiracy that the CIA was behind it is not true.

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Speaker 4: But are there things that still need to be figured

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Speaker 4: out or we should still look into?

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Speaker 5: For me, the only thing would get my attention in

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Speaker 5: the newspaper if Castro opened up his archives, which won't happen.

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Speaker 5: And also there are archives in Mexico City that we

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Speaker 5: got a peek at because they did their own investigation

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Speaker 5: in Mexico. The National Archives, at my behest tried for

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Speaker 5: years to get those from Mexico and couldn't get them.

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Speaker 5: The sneak peaks we've had are that there was Cuban

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Speaker 5: contact with Oswald. I'll tell you the story. We were

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Speaker 5: told by the operatives who were in the Cuban embassy

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Speaker 5: in Mexico City, who were there at the time. They

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Speaker 5: said that Oswald came in. They didn't know who he was,

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Speaker 5: and when he didn't get a visa, immediately he went nuts.

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Speaker 5: And then he went over to the Russian embassy and

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Speaker 5: went nuts. And he thought they would know of him

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Speaker 5: because he had handed out leaflets in New New Orleans

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Speaker 5: pro Castro and he wanted to be at whatever a

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Speaker 5: spy for Fidel and he got so mad. And according

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Speaker 5: to Castro, we know this from Castro's own lips, Oswald said,

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Speaker 5: I'll kill that bastard Kennedy for you. I'll show you now.

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Speaker 5: Castro told us that through telling that to his confidants,

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Speaker 5: who reported it back to the FBI. After he says

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Speaker 5: that Cuban intelligence operatives in that embassy started to hang

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Speaker 5: out with this guy during the week that he was there,

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Speaker 5: which we know nothing, or we felt we knew nothing.

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Speaker 5: They wanted to suss this guy out see if he

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Speaker 5: was a Nutter if he really was going to do this.

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Speaker 5: They even offered in money, and they told us in

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Speaker 5: our documentary that he turned it down. It wasn't about money,

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Speaker 5: it was ideology. They said, if you do this, you'll

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Speaker 5: be a hero. Keep in mind when people ask me

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Speaker 5: if there was a conspiracy, I say, well, it depends

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Speaker 5: on your definition. It's a conspiracy of silence. I'm convinced

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Speaker 5: that Cubans knew he was going to try to do

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Speaker 5: it and encouraged him because he'd Jeff Gabe been trying

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Speaker 5: to get a Castro for two years. I don't know

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Speaker 5: if you know Brian Lttel, former CIA officer, He ran

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Speaker 5: the Cuba desk for the agency in the eighties, and

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Speaker 5: they told Brian that well, in the morning of the assassination,

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Speaker 5: he was in the G two headquarters Cuban Intelligence in Havana,

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Speaker 5: when work came down from Fidel to redirect all the

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Speaker 5: surveillance issues that were pointed at Miami, where JM waves

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Speaker 5: CIA base was, and turned them to Texas. This is

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Speaker 5: from a Cuban defector to Brian Lttel, And why do

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Speaker 5: you want to point it Texas? The answer was something's

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Speaker 5: going to have and I want to be the first

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Speaker 5: to know from Padel So the word got to him

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Speaker 5: that something might happen in Texas and he wore to

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Speaker 5: know immediately. And I believe this got back to Johnson,

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Speaker 5: this kind of stuff, because he was in touch with

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Speaker 5: Mexican with the Mexicans, he had great friends in Mexicano,

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Speaker 5: including the president. And I'm convinced from people I spoke

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Speaker 5: to that he was told that night there's more to

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Speaker 5: this than just this guy. He was hanging out with

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Speaker 5: the wrong people, and that this gets out, it's all

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Speaker 5: going to blow up. And Johnson just said, I'm not

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Speaker 5: going there.

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Speaker 6: And CIA, we have something called duty to warn. It's

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Speaker 6: a law, and if we know about an assassination attempt

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Speaker 6: coming up against a foreign official, even an unfriendly one,

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Speaker 6: we are honor not honored.

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Speaker 3: We are legally bound to tell them this. Now.

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Speaker 6: We don't have to go into great detail, we don't

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Speaker 6: have to give away sourcing. And I can remember one

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Speaker 6: time in the Philippines there was an advancer of a

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Speaker 6: country that is very hastile to us, and we had

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Speaker 6: heard that Islamis were looking to kill him, and I

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Speaker 6: had to have a meeting with him.

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Speaker 3: I sat down.

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Speaker 6: His bodyguards were there, and I said, look, you know

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Speaker 6: who I am.

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Speaker 3: I'm the CIA, and does.

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Speaker 7: A plant to kill you?

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Speaker 6: And he laughed because in their you know, this authoritarian government,

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Speaker 6: they would never do this.

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Speaker 7: And he laughed at me. But he did increase his security.

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Speaker 6: So they know the Russian, the Russians of the Cubans

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Speaker 6: wouldn't do that.

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Speaker 5: So they didn't hire him. So there goes the cute

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Speaker 5: Castro did it conspiracy? But Castro knew And if you

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Speaker 5: call that a conspiracy, find in fact, we were told

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Speaker 5: many details from these Cuban operatives that they encouraged him

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Speaker 5: Oswald if he wanted to try this, and that he'd

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Speaker 5: be a hero, even to the extent that they said,

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Speaker 5: we'll rescue you if you pulled this off. That's what Well,

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Speaker 5: I only had one source on that, so I didn't

355
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Speaker 5: put it in my book, but I believe him, and

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Speaker 5: he said Oswald was on his way to rendezvous with

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Speaker 5: the Russians when Officer Tippett stopped. And remember he shot

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Speaker 5: Officer Tippet. Most people forget about that, poor guy. He

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Speaker 5: shot four times point blank by Oswald. So Tippett may

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Speaker 5: have stopped a rendezvous and the farthest extension of that

361
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Speaker 5: story is he said, we told out to what would

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Speaker 5: fly him to Havana if he pulled this off? And

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Speaker 5: he said, but we were going to do that. I said,

364
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Speaker 5: what are you going to do? So we're going to

365
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Speaker 5: dump him into the Gulf of Mexico.

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Speaker 4: So we've talked a little bit about this about the

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Speaker 4: CIA's involved or did it? And it comes up again

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Speaker 4: and again. So to go back to where we started

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Speaker 4: on RFK Junior, there's this view and then Amaryllis Fox,

370
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Speaker 4: who is married to his son, former CIA officer for

371
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Speaker 4: a couple of years inside, there's this All we need

372
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Speaker 4: to do is get into the CIA archives. We get

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Speaker 4: into the Intelligent Comunity Archives. It'll answer this question for us.

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Speaker 4: And we've talked about what that actually means and why

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Speaker 4: stuff might not yet be put out because there are

376
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Speaker 4: real reasons for that, not to cover up reasons for that.

377
00:19:04,802 --> 00:19:08,002
Speaker 4: You're someone who digs into the paperwork and the archives

378
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Speaker 4: and the research. What is your view on what the

379
00:19:10,242 --> 00:19:12,601
Speaker 4: CIA is put out and do you think there's a

380
00:19:12,682 --> 00:19:16,202
Speaker 4: smoking gun and what hasn't been put Oh.

381
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Speaker 5: Not at all. I've been researching at the National Archives

382
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Speaker 5: since the eighties and I also went to the CIA

383
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Speaker 5: a couple times because they wanted to hear more about

384
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Speaker 5: what I had uncovered in Mexico. They brought me down

385
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Speaker 5: to headquarters. But as far as what the CIA has,

386
00:19:29,482 --> 00:19:33,122
Speaker 5: people don't understand that everything has been released. What these

387
00:19:33,122 --> 00:19:36,482
Speaker 5: people are talking about are cleaner versions of some of

388
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Speaker 5: these pages. Every page is out, some with reactions. They

389
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Speaker 5: want those reactions unredacted, those reactions, and I've got them

390
00:19:45,362 --> 00:19:47,602
Speaker 5: their microscopic. It's not like there's gonna be a great

391
00:19:47,642 --> 00:19:51,402
Speaker 5: new narrative. It's two words, and it's usually a person's name.

392
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Speaker 5: It's all sources and I've seen the documents and that's

393
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Speaker 5: all it can be. There's not going to be any

394
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Speaker 5: smoking gun. It's going to be a name of some

395
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Speaker 5: Cuban guy who was talking to a CIA guy in

396
00:20:02,802 --> 00:20:05,242
Speaker 5: my in Nevada, and he would get killed if that

397
00:20:05,362 --> 00:20:07,561
Speaker 5: came out, and he may still be alive. Because these

398
00:20:07,562 --> 00:20:11,442
Speaker 5: guys were in their twenties, and I'm against getting rid

399
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Speaker 5: of those redactions. Promises were made to people, as you

400
00:20:13,922 --> 00:20:16,121
Speaker 5: guys know, when you're out there, we'll protect you if

401
00:20:16,122 --> 00:20:18,322
Speaker 5: you talk to us. You can't just change your mind

402
00:20:18,322 --> 00:20:20,962
Speaker 5: fifty years later and say well, under the pressure of

403
00:20:21,002 --> 00:20:23,322
Speaker 5: Oliver Stone, we're going to release your name. I've seen

404
00:20:23,362 --> 00:20:25,802
Speaker 5: some of the reactions they've let out, and it's terrible.

405
00:20:26,562 --> 00:20:31,561
Speaker 5: Names of agents of the sources, organized crime sources in Chicago.

406
00:20:32,162 --> 00:20:34,841
Speaker 5: So that's what's left. I've seen all the documents, and

407
00:20:34,922 --> 00:20:38,402
Speaker 5: the archivists have seen them all, and the review board

408
00:20:38,522 --> 00:20:41,642
Speaker 5: who looked at this in the nineties saw everything. It's

409
00:20:41,682 --> 00:20:44,042
Speaker 5: gonna be so anti climactic, you're not gonna believe it.

410
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Speaker 3: We'll be right back, and we're back.

411
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Speaker 4: I'm going to tell you now, if I thought that

412
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Speaker 4: the US government was behind killing the president of United States,

413
00:21:01,482 --> 00:21:05,922
Speaker 4: I would tell people, yeah, I don't like. Give me

414
00:21:05,962 --> 00:21:09,042
Speaker 4: your sense of the Oliver Stones JFK movie and where

415
00:21:09,202 --> 00:21:11,881
Speaker 4: that conspiracy theory story came from.

416
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Speaker 5: I was there when he filmed it. This was in

417
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Speaker 5: the night ninety. He contacted me because he knew that

418
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Speaker 5: I knew where all the sources works. I had been

419
00:21:20,082 --> 00:21:22,682
Speaker 5: interviewing them for documentaries. I hadn't written the book yet,

420
00:21:23,162 --> 00:21:25,322
Speaker 5: but he said, you could be really helpful. I'm doing

421
00:21:25,322 --> 00:21:27,722
Speaker 5: this movie. So he brings me to Hollywood. I meet

422
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Speaker 5: with him. I didn't know he was going to go

423
00:21:29,562 --> 00:21:32,162
Speaker 5: after Jim Garrison at the time, so I said, oh, yeah,

424
00:21:32,202 --> 00:21:33,361
Speaker 5: I love to help. I want to see how you

425
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Speaker 5: do this. I'd never been around a fifty million dollar

426
00:21:35,762 --> 00:21:38,842
Speaker 5: movie production. When I eventually read the script and found

427
00:21:38,882 --> 00:21:41,122
Speaker 5: out it was Garrison, I pulled away from the whole thing,

428
00:21:41,322 --> 00:21:43,602
Speaker 5: but I was there for a couple months of the project.

429
00:21:43,642 --> 00:21:47,762
Speaker 5: A couple months of the project and where that comes

430
00:21:47,802 --> 00:21:51,322
Speaker 5: from in his mind. He bought into Jim Garrison right

431
00:21:51,562 --> 00:21:56,402
Speaker 5: the New Orleans DA who went after Clay Shaw, who

432
00:21:56,482 --> 00:22:00,762
Speaker 5: was accused by the KGB's disinformation of being a CIA

433
00:22:00,882 --> 00:22:04,762
Speaker 5: officer who killed Kennedy, and Garrison bought at hook Line

434
00:22:04,802 --> 00:22:09,442
Speaker 5: and Sinker. Oliver Stone understandably needed a protagonist for a

435
00:22:09,522 --> 00:22:12,162
Speaker 5: Kennedy assassination story, which he was dying to tell. He

436
00:22:12,242 --> 00:22:14,002
Speaker 5: told me, he said, this was the movie I always

437
00:22:14,042 --> 00:22:16,362
Speaker 5: wanted to make, but I didn't have the clout until

438
00:22:16,362 --> 00:22:18,282
Speaker 5: I want a bunch of Academy Awards. Now I had

439
00:22:18,322 --> 00:22:20,282
Speaker 5: the cloud to ask for the money to do it.

440
00:22:20,602 --> 00:22:23,321
Speaker 5: He sort of identified, I think with Garrison, because Oliver

441
00:22:23,402 --> 00:22:26,842
Speaker 5: Stone is kind of a black sheep in Hollywood. Jim

442
00:22:26,882 --> 00:22:30,482
Speaker 5: Garrison was a black sheep among DA's. It was the

443
00:22:30,522 --> 00:22:32,962
Speaker 5: white Knight against everybody. Well, that's who Oliver Stone is.

444
00:22:33,322 --> 00:22:37,362
Speaker 5: This is my own psychological diagnosis here. And I don't

445
00:22:37,402 --> 00:22:41,121
Speaker 5: know what Oliver really believes about those witnesses that clayed

446
00:22:41,122 --> 00:22:44,402
Speaker 5: that Jim Garrison had because they all eventually admitted they lied.

447
00:22:44,762 --> 00:22:47,442
Speaker 5: Jim Garrison forced them to lie on the witness stand

448
00:22:47,682 --> 00:22:50,081
Speaker 5: because he was known to pressure people like that. That

449
00:22:50,162 --> 00:22:52,121
Speaker 5: was his history in New Orleans. He was not a

450
00:22:52,162 --> 00:22:55,842
Speaker 5: good guy and he destroyed a lot of lives over

451
00:22:55,882 --> 00:22:59,922
Speaker 5: the course of his life with the accusations, with persecutions

452
00:22:59,922 --> 00:23:03,522
Speaker 5: and indictments that went nowhere. Oliver Stone wanted to make

453
00:23:03,562 --> 00:23:07,442
Speaker 5: sense of Vietnam because he was traumatized by it and

454
00:23:07,482 --> 00:23:09,522
Speaker 5: this was the only thing that made sense to him.

455
00:23:09,762 --> 00:23:12,362
Speaker 5: That Kennedy was killed so they could escalate the war

456
00:23:12,922 --> 00:23:15,522
Speaker 5: and at last the war made sense to him. And

457
00:23:15,562 --> 00:23:18,002
Speaker 5: that's what his conclusion was. He had no evidence of it.

458
00:23:18,122 --> 00:23:21,962
Speaker 5: He just used Garrison's evidence, which was meaningless because.

459
00:23:22,362 --> 00:23:25,442
Speaker 6: RFK Junior said, and I haven't looked into this deeply,

460
00:23:25,482 --> 00:23:28,522
Speaker 6: but he has said he suspects that CIA was involved

461
00:23:29,002 --> 00:23:32,082
Speaker 6: in the assassination of Robert Kennedy.

462
00:23:33,122 --> 00:23:36,562
Speaker 8: There's a six year cutter up. You know, the war

463
00:23:36,602 --> 00:23:41,121
Speaker 8: information was run by Alan Dallas, who was ahead of

464
00:23:41,122 --> 00:23:45,122
Speaker 8: the CIA, who my uncle fired because.

465
00:23:44,882 --> 00:23:45,641
Speaker 3: I was founding.

466
00:23:45,802 --> 00:23:49,402
Speaker 8: Yeah, it was a plot, It was a conspiracy. There

467
00:23:49,402 --> 00:23:51,522
Speaker 8: were multiple people involved.

468
00:23:52,602 --> 00:23:54,522
Speaker 7: Why do you think this is this has come up?

469
00:23:54,602 --> 00:23:57,442
Speaker 6: Why he still believes it's now and what are the

470
00:23:57,482 --> 00:23:59,561
Speaker 6: conspiracy theories on this one?

471
00:23:59,802 --> 00:24:02,162
Speaker 5: First, I'm not at the expert in RFK. I know

472
00:24:02,242 --> 00:24:05,601
Speaker 5: some things about it peripherally. But where that seems to

473
00:24:05,642 --> 00:24:09,202
Speaker 5: come from is Sirrahan kept the diary and in the

474
00:24:09,242 --> 00:24:12,442
Speaker 5: diary he kept writing or Okay must die. And it

475
00:24:12,482 --> 00:24:14,722
Speaker 5: looked to some people like he'd been hypnotized to do

476
00:24:14,762 --> 00:24:16,802
Speaker 5: this because he wrote it over and over again. And

477
00:24:16,802 --> 00:24:19,522
Speaker 5: they said, he's a Manchurian candidate. Again, no evidence, it

478
00:24:19,682 --> 00:24:22,162
Speaker 5: just it's just a convenient thing. There's no link to

479
00:24:22,242 --> 00:24:25,202
Speaker 5: him in the CIA. And he also ballistically he did it,

480
00:24:26,162 --> 00:24:29,161
Speaker 5: but it's just people want and he says, I oh.

481
00:24:29,202 --> 00:24:31,841
Speaker 5: He also said, I can't remember pulling the trigger. Another

482
00:24:31,922 --> 00:24:35,522
Speaker 5: Manchurian candidate thing, and who does Manchurian candidates? But the

483
00:24:35,562 --> 00:24:38,882
Speaker 5: CIA of course they don't. But that I know, that's

484
00:24:38,882 --> 00:24:41,962
Speaker 5: the story that we get from the movies, and they

485
00:24:41,962 --> 00:24:45,242
Speaker 5: buy into this RFK. You know, he's into a lot

486
00:24:45,242 --> 00:24:48,722
Speaker 5: of conspiracy theories, and I can send you guys a

487
00:24:48,842 --> 00:24:52,802
Speaker 5: video it's on YouTube of Surehand giving a lucid, sober

488
00:24:52,882 --> 00:24:56,321
Speaker 5: confession to the whole thing. He tells David Frost, I

489
00:24:56,362 --> 00:24:58,482
Speaker 5: did it. I'm sorry, I was. I regret it, but

490
00:24:58,562 --> 00:25:02,002
Speaker 5: he admitted doing it. The RFK probably knows the same

491
00:25:02,122 --> 00:25:06,002
Speaker 5: theories about his uncle that seemed to be on the

492
00:25:06,042 --> 00:25:09,602
Speaker 5: surface meaningful, like I'll kill out destroy the CIA. There

493
00:25:09,682 --> 00:25:12,842
Speaker 5: was no enmity between the Kennedys and the agency at all,

494
00:25:13,282 --> 00:25:15,601
Speaker 5: so the CIA would not want to kill Robert Kennedy.

495
00:25:15,682 --> 00:25:18,082
Speaker 5: They never hated him, They never hated Jack.

496
00:25:19,082 --> 00:25:22,122
Speaker 4: It's I don't know, if anything, they probably he the

497
00:25:22,202 --> 00:25:25,482
Speaker 4: Kennedy's like Eisenhower before, and probably pushed the CIA to

498
00:25:25,522 --> 00:25:26,482
Speaker 4: do too much too.

499
00:25:26,602 --> 00:25:29,202
Speaker 7: It was too handy and easy to get things.

500
00:25:28,922 --> 00:25:31,002
Speaker 4: Done in secret by the CIA, rather than go through

501
00:25:31,002 --> 00:25:33,242
Speaker 4: the whole political process and get people on board him.

502
00:25:33,322 --> 00:25:35,802
Speaker 5: Yeah, I've got a great quote from Robert Kennedy and

503
00:25:35,842 --> 00:25:38,361
Speaker 5: from JFK, two great quotes from them. Just before they

504
00:25:39,202 --> 00:25:43,522
Speaker 5: they both said to the press that any errors in

505
00:25:43,602 --> 00:25:47,802
Speaker 5: political operations were not the fault of the CIA. They

506
00:25:47,802 --> 00:25:51,321
Speaker 5: did their job. They were instructed by different administrations to

507
00:25:51,362 --> 00:25:54,122
Speaker 5: do what they did. They apologized for all these things

508
00:25:54,242 --> 00:25:58,522
Speaker 5: in the agency were great people, and Kennedy doubled their budget.

509
00:25:58,762 --> 00:26:01,442
Speaker 5: This idea that Robert Kennedy was hated by the CIA,

510
00:26:01,522 --> 00:26:04,202
Speaker 5: there's nothing there, absolutely nothing to answer your question. I

511
00:26:04,202 --> 00:26:08,242
Speaker 5: can't get inside Robert Kennedy's mind except that he's read

512
00:26:08,402 --> 00:26:10,242
Speaker 5: the Manchurian Candidate or something. You know.

513
00:26:10,682 --> 00:26:14,042
Speaker 6: He's gone on about something called Operation Mockingbird. There's not

514
00:26:14,162 --> 00:26:17,522
Speaker 6: much out there, but there was an Operation mocking Bird.

515
00:26:17,922 --> 00:26:21,482
Speaker 6: And this goes back to the early sixties and it

516
00:26:21,522 --> 00:26:23,242
Speaker 6: was one of the things that the CIA got wrong

517
00:26:23,322 --> 00:26:25,522
Speaker 6: that came out in the Church Commission, and it was

518
00:26:25,602 --> 00:26:28,121
Speaker 6: the CIA and the FBI went after a couple of

519
00:26:28,242 --> 00:26:33,601
Speaker 6: journalists because CIA information isial security information was leaking. And

520
00:26:33,682 --> 00:26:39,122
Speaker 6: the person who authorized this bugging of journalists was none

521
00:26:39,162 --> 00:26:42,442
Speaker 6: other than Robert Kennedy. So, yeah, telling him to do it.

522
00:26:42,722 --> 00:26:45,722
Speaker 6: And yet this is but it sounds cool, well, operation

523
00:26:45,882 --> 00:26:48,042
Speaker 6: mocking Bird, but the yeah, look into it.

524
00:26:48,122 --> 00:26:50,762
Speaker 7: It's actually there's like way less there than meets theory.

525
00:26:51,162 --> 00:26:54,322
Speaker 5: Robert Kennedy was so into covert action. He authought rises

526
00:26:54,362 --> 00:26:56,881
Speaker 5: the wire taps on Martin Luther King, the illegal wiretaps.

527
00:26:57,402 --> 00:26:59,722
Speaker 5: He would go down to JM Wave CIA based in

528
00:26:59,762 --> 00:27:02,802
Speaker 5: Florida during the height of these Cuban operations and walk

529
00:27:02,882 --> 00:27:06,362
Speaker 5: in and tear documents off the teletype and just walk

530
00:27:06,402 --> 00:27:10,162
Speaker 5: out with them classified need to know papers and the

531
00:27:10,162 --> 00:27:13,202
Speaker 5: people down there who I spoke to yelled at it.

532
00:27:13,242 --> 00:27:15,242
Speaker 5: What are where are you going with this stuff? He

533
00:27:15,362 --> 00:27:18,042
Speaker 5: was training Cuban exiles that were friends of his in

534
00:27:18,082 --> 00:27:21,722
Speaker 5: his backyard at hip Hickory Hill. They were doing training exercises.

535
00:27:22,042 --> 00:27:24,962
Speaker 5: He didn't understand any tradecraft. It was going to blow

536
00:27:25,002 --> 00:27:28,482
Speaker 5: everything up, and it did. But he loved this stuff.

537
00:27:28,762 --> 00:27:30,882
Speaker 5: That was not an enemy thing with the CIA. He

538
00:27:30,922 --> 00:27:32,402
Speaker 5: really dug it. He wanted to be a spy. I

539
00:27:32,442 --> 00:27:35,361
Speaker 5: think we just can't undo the enmity that came out

540
00:27:35,442 --> 00:27:38,442
Speaker 5: for the agency in the seventies with the church stuff.

541
00:27:38,482 --> 00:27:41,322
Speaker 5: That's still faced with a lot of people, right.

542
00:27:41,562 --> 00:27:43,362
Speaker 7: And I don't want to speak ill of the Kennedys

543
00:27:43,402 --> 00:27:43,842
Speaker 7: here either.

544
00:27:44,002 --> 00:27:46,762
Speaker 6: Their mindset they're coming out of they're worried that the

545
00:27:47,162 --> 00:27:49,482
Speaker 6: world is going to be destroyed, and their mindset was

546
00:27:49,522 --> 00:27:53,962
Speaker 6: set in fighting the Nazis fifteen years before and fighting

547
00:27:53,962 --> 00:27:57,642
Speaker 6: the Japanese and like the saving mankind, and we look

548
00:27:57,682 --> 00:28:01,082
Speaker 6: at our mindsets today. Our mentality is very different than

549
00:28:01,122 --> 00:28:04,042
Speaker 6: within what they were trying to do, which arguably I

550
00:28:04,082 --> 00:28:06,561
Speaker 6: don't even think I was build a better, freer world

551
00:28:06,962 --> 00:28:08,522
Speaker 6: if they were willing to get their hands dirty.

552
00:28:08,802 --> 00:28:11,722
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's basically there was the Cold War hysteria. But

553
00:28:12,242 --> 00:28:15,762
Speaker 5: I will say the CIA guys to orchestrated the Bay

554
00:28:15,762 --> 00:28:17,522
Speaker 5: of Pigs told me that it was more than that.

555
00:28:17,842 --> 00:28:20,361
Speaker 5: They said the Kennedys personally had it in for Padel.

556
00:28:20,402 --> 00:28:23,242
Speaker 5: It was a personal thing because they lost to him

557
00:28:23,762 --> 00:28:26,762
Speaker 5: after the at the Bay Pigs, and Fidel spent months

558
00:28:26,842 --> 00:28:30,362
Speaker 5: traveling the world and making fun of the Kennedys, calling

559
00:28:30,402 --> 00:28:33,402
Speaker 5: them Cretans and just rubbing their nose in it constantly

560
00:28:33,882 --> 00:28:36,682
Speaker 5: that we beat the big bully, and that really chafed

561
00:28:36,682 --> 00:28:39,322
Speaker 5: that the Kennedys. According to the CIA officers, they said

562
00:28:39,362 --> 00:28:42,242
Speaker 5: this was a personal thing between the Kennedy brothers and

563
00:28:42,282 --> 00:28:45,202
Speaker 5: the Castro brothers. And I think some of that plays

564
00:28:45,202 --> 00:28:47,842
Speaker 5: into it too, because the Kennedys weren't used to losing

565
00:28:47,922 --> 00:28:49,442
Speaker 5: anything obviously.

566
00:28:49,802 --> 00:28:52,602
Speaker 4: You know, incredible investigative reporter. I read your book Best

567
00:28:52,642 --> 00:28:56,722
Speaker 4: of Enemies about a Russian KGB officer, a Soviet and

568
00:28:56,762 --> 00:28:59,882
Speaker 4: then Russian KGB officer Ganadi Vasilinko. I have to say,

569
00:28:59,962 --> 00:29:02,162
Speaker 4: I'm amazed at how much stuff you dug up because

570
00:29:02,202 --> 00:29:04,722
Speaker 4: I worked directly on the issues that led to the

571
00:29:04,802 --> 00:29:08,242
Speaker 4: arrest of Robert Hansen and the illegals arrested in twenty ten,

572
00:29:08,322 --> 00:29:10,362
Speaker 4: Russian legalsss than twenty ten and all these other kind

573
00:29:10,402 --> 00:29:12,762
Speaker 4: of things. It's all these people that are in your book,

574
00:29:13,442 --> 00:29:16,682
Speaker 4: Jack Platt, James, Mike Rocheford, Paul Redmond, They're all I

575
00:29:16,722 --> 00:29:19,362
Speaker 4: was all worked very closely with them, so I was

576
00:29:19,522 --> 00:29:20,602
Speaker 4: really impressed with that.

577
00:29:20,682 --> 00:29:23,482
Speaker 5: Yeah, that story came to me Jack Platt called. I'd

578
00:29:23,522 --> 00:29:26,402
Speaker 5: met Jack just in passing at a book party years

579
00:29:26,402 --> 00:29:29,962
Speaker 5: before this, and he called me up one day out

580
00:29:30,002 --> 00:29:33,002
Speaker 5: of the blue and said that Robert de Niro said,

581
00:29:33,002 --> 00:29:34,082
Speaker 5: you're the guy to do my book.

582
00:29:34,402 --> 00:29:34,842
Speaker 7: I fixed you.

583
00:29:35,002 --> 00:29:37,642
Speaker 5: I said, excuse me, Jack Platt, I said, yeah, I

584
00:29:37,642 --> 00:29:39,082
Speaker 5: want to do a book about me and my friend

585
00:29:39,162 --> 00:29:42,282
Speaker 5: me and my friend Ganati and U. I said, sounds

586
00:29:42,282 --> 00:29:44,562
Speaker 5: interesting because I knew a little bit about it and

587
00:29:44,642 --> 00:29:47,362
Speaker 5: I signed on to it. But yeah, I work a

588
00:29:47,402 --> 00:29:50,002
Speaker 5: hard on these projects. I call up everybody till they

589
00:29:50,042 --> 00:29:51,882
Speaker 5: agree to talk to me, and sometimes you just get

590
00:29:51,922 --> 00:29:54,562
Speaker 5: a crumb and sometimes you get something, you can bring

591
00:29:54,602 --> 00:29:57,522
Speaker 5: it full circle. These assets, these sources that with the

592
00:29:57,562 --> 00:30:00,202
Speaker 5: FBI and the CIA used in the sixties to talk

593
00:30:00,242 --> 00:30:03,442
Speaker 5: about Cuba or Russia. You're putting them in harm's way,

594
00:30:03,442 --> 00:30:05,322
Speaker 5: and now we're going to release their names because Oliver

595
00:30:05,402 --> 00:30:07,922
Speaker 5: Stone wants you to. It's inside it.

596
00:30:08,082 --> 00:30:10,842
Speaker 4: I've said this many times, probably even on this podcast.

597
00:30:11,842 --> 00:30:15,842
Speaker 4: The bulk of the classified information that the Sea gets

598
00:30:16,642 --> 00:30:19,802
Speaker 4: from human sources are from our partners overseas, right, So

599
00:30:20,842 --> 00:30:23,082
Speaker 4: the British and the French, and the Tunisians and the

600
00:30:23,122 --> 00:30:26,762
Speaker 4: Malaysians and everybody we share, we work together. They're not spies,

601
00:30:26,802 --> 00:30:29,682
Speaker 4: their representatives of their own government, and they're saying, hey, listen,

602
00:30:29,682 --> 00:30:30,682
Speaker 4: we have a good relationship with you.

603
00:30:30,682 --> 00:30:31,562
Speaker 3: You've helped us on things.

604
00:30:31,802 --> 00:30:33,082
Speaker 4: Let me tell you what's happening here.

605
00:30:33,442 --> 00:30:36,402
Speaker 5: This is probably the biggest thing that these amateur conspiracy

606
00:30:36,442 --> 00:30:40,002
Speaker 5: people don't realize at all. They have no conception of

607
00:30:40,042 --> 00:30:42,602
Speaker 5: the human aspect of what you guys do.

608
00:30:43,122 --> 00:30:44,602
Speaker 3: I'm aware of this one story.

609
00:30:44,642 --> 00:30:49,722
Speaker 6: There was a European country and after nine to eleven,

610
00:30:49,802 --> 00:30:53,242
Speaker 6: in an interview, one of their ministers says, oh.

611
00:30:52,962 --> 00:30:54,322
Speaker 3: Yeah, that happened the United States.

612
00:30:54,362 --> 00:30:57,402
Speaker 6: But we're Europe and this isn't going to happen here,

613
00:30:57,802 --> 00:31:01,162
Speaker 6: but we are keeping tabs on and he named some figure.

614
00:31:01,162 --> 00:31:02,402
Speaker 6: I don't remember what it was, but it was like

615
00:31:02,442 --> 00:31:06,162
Speaker 6: two hundred and fifty odd people that we suspect of

616
00:31:06,362 --> 00:31:09,882
Speaker 6: having terrorist connections who would attack the United States or

617
00:31:09,962 --> 00:31:13,842
Speaker 6: kill Americans at or Israelis and Jews and the local

618
00:31:13,842 --> 00:31:17,362
Speaker 6: people at this embassy like, we don't know about this list,

619
00:31:18,002 --> 00:31:21,962
Speaker 6: and the government says, basically, oh, he misspoke. The minister did,

620
00:31:22,162 --> 00:31:25,202
Speaker 6: but I'll tell you. Within within a week we had

621
00:31:25,482 --> 00:31:28,162
Speaker 6: three or four copies of the list, not from spies,

622
00:31:28,642 --> 00:31:31,802
Speaker 6: but from people who just couldn't live with themselves. It's like,

623
00:31:32,122 --> 00:31:34,802
Speaker 6: you didn't get this for me. Here's the list. You

624
00:31:34,882 --> 00:31:36,402
Speaker 6: just need to be careful. I don't want any more

625
00:31:36,442 --> 00:31:39,682
Speaker 6: people killed. And these are patriotic people of that country.

626
00:31:39,762 --> 00:31:42,682
Speaker 6: They're not our spies. If you try to give them

627
00:31:42,682 --> 00:31:44,962
Speaker 6: like twenty bucks there after, they'd never talked to you again.

628
00:31:45,042 --> 00:31:47,402
Speaker 6: People are people, and I think the government, that government,

629
00:31:47,522 --> 00:31:49,482
Speaker 6: my sense was they even knew that was going to happen,

630
00:31:49,522 --> 00:31:50,922
Speaker 6: they just didn't want it to be official.

631
00:31:51,162 --> 00:31:55,162
Speaker 5: Fascinating, Well, that's the world that is never portrayed in

632
00:31:55,202 --> 00:31:59,642
Speaker 5: the media, and so people just don't understand those nuances

633
00:31:59,762 --> 00:32:00,722
Speaker 5: of what you do.

634
00:32:01,242 --> 00:32:02,682
Speaker 6: So I spend a lot of time in the counter

635
00:32:02,802 --> 00:32:06,522
Speaker 6: terrorism Center, and you know that tends to be pretty

636
00:32:06,562 --> 00:32:08,882
Speaker 6: rough and tumble. Sometimes lives are in the line, and

637
00:32:08,922 --> 00:32:11,762
Speaker 6: you have to make some difficult moral calls and in

638
00:32:11,882 --> 00:32:16,042
Speaker 6: doing that, and say, with John, we didn't so much

639
00:32:16,562 --> 00:32:18,522
Speaker 6: talk to Rabbi Aser Priest, but we did talk to

640
00:32:18,642 --> 00:32:22,682
Speaker 6: lawyers off friggin' line, and the fact that lawyers.

641
00:32:22,362 --> 00:32:24,922
Speaker 3: Were on everything. Am I going to go to tell

642
00:32:24,962 --> 00:32:27,202
Speaker 3: me I'm not going to go to jail for this? Right? Wow?

643
00:32:27,642 --> 00:32:30,922
Speaker 7: So I'm just looking forward if I'm.

644
00:32:30,922 --> 00:32:34,202
Speaker 6: In the CIA now and somebody comes to me from

645
00:32:34,242 --> 00:32:36,562
Speaker 6: the NSC and says, I want you to put together

646
00:32:36,562 --> 00:32:39,642
Speaker 6: a plan to take over Greenland, just you know, as

647
00:32:39,682 --> 00:32:43,362
Speaker 6: an example, just or I want you to take Denmark

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Speaker 6: or Panama.

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Speaker 7: First of all, I'm going to go to a lawyer.

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00:32:46,802 --> 00:32:49,802
Speaker 6: And second of all, if you're smart, you're going to say,

651
00:32:50,322 --> 00:32:52,642
Speaker 6: I got other things to do, right, I mean, you're

652
00:32:52,682 --> 00:32:55,082
Speaker 6: going to decline to do that. And I don't know

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00:32:55,122 --> 00:32:57,002
Speaker 6: what it was like, Unlike with the Bay of Pigs,

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00:32:57,042 --> 00:32:59,642
Speaker 6: where I think they thought they were saving Cuba and

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00:32:59,962 --> 00:33:03,482
Speaker 6: then finding a Cold war, So taking over Greenland, there's

656
00:33:03,482 --> 00:33:06,802
Speaker 6: going to be some lawyers who have some really difficult conversations.

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00:33:07,682 --> 00:33:10,002
Speaker 7: They go to the they talk to officers and look

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00:33:10,042 --> 00:33:12,522
Speaker 7: to the law barks. It's like, because presidents can't order

659
00:33:12,522 --> 00:33:13,322
Speaker 7: I llegal things.

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00:33:13,522 --> 00:33:16,322
Speaker 5: When the Kennedys were ordering things, and when Eisenhower was

661
00:33:16,442 --> 00:33:18,242
Speaker 5: ordering things, a lot of those things were still legal.

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00:33:18,322 --> 00:33:21,122
Speaker 5: Now they're not. They've changed the laws. Yeah, that's true.

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Speaker 4: So what is it you're working on now, Well.

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00:33:23,882 --> 00:33:26,522
Speaker 5: Just helping the screenwriter. You know, our book Best of

665
00:33:26,682 --> 00:33:30,002
Speaker 5: Enemies got optioned and we got a really great companies

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00:33:30,042 --> 00:33:32,562
Speaker 5: behind it, with a lot of big actors involved in

667
00:33:32,642 --> 00:33:36,322
Speaker 5: a big screenwriter, and so it's very serious and we're

668
00:33:36,362 --> 00:33:38,842
Speaker 5: working very hard on that screenplay. And I've got two

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00:33:38,922 --> 00:33:42,002
Speaker 5: or three other projects that are not books, but mostly

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00:33:42,042 --> 00:33:42,962
Speaker 5: Hollywood related.

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00:33:43,402 --> 00:33:44,562
Speaker 7: It's been great, it really his.

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Speaker 3: I really enjoyed this.

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Speaker 5: Oh well, thank you so much, appreciate.

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Speaker 3: I had a good time.

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Speaker 5: Pleasure talking to you guys. Then I can't wait to

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Speaker 5: keep talking to you, as is my wanting.

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Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Ceipher,

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Speaker 6: and Jonathan Stern.

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00:34:00,042 --> 00:34:03,642
Speaker 7: The associate producer is Rachel Harner mission implausible.

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00:34:03,642 --> 00:34:07,162
Speaker 6: It's a production of honorable mention and abominable pictures for

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Speaker 6: iHeart Podcasts,