1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:09,520 Speaker 2: Let me tell you we have a new star. 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,960 Speaker 3: A star is born Elan mars Jus and Kennemy. He 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 3: is the Thomas Edison plus plus plus of our age. 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: Probably his whole life is from a position of insecurity. 6 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: I feel for the guy. I would say ninety eight 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: percent really appreciate what he DOESK but those two percent 8 00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: that are nasty, they are I'll pay in full pos 9 00:00:30,280 --> 00:00:32,280 Speaker 2: We were meant for great things in the United States 10 00:00:32,320 --> 00:00:34,560 Speaker 2: of America, and Elon reminds. 11 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 3: Us of that. 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: I'm very disappointed in Elan. 13 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,640 Speaker 2: I've helped Elon a lot. 14 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 3: Welcome to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 15 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 3: It's Tuesday, July twenty second. I'm Max Chafkin, filling in 16 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:57,280 Speaker 3: for David Popadopolos. Later in this episode, we have another 17 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 3: interview in our summer series that we're doing with some 18 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 3: of our favorite Elon Musk reporters. We're going to talk 19 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,120 Speaker 3: to them about the stories that they've written recently that 20 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 3: we're jealous of, that we wish we had written. This week, 21 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 3: we've got our very own Sarah Fryar, Bloomberg Big Technology Editor, 22 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 3: speaking with Wall Street Journal reporter Dana Mattioli about an 23 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 3: article she wrote in March about Elon's kids, his custody agreements, 24 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 3: and the pro natalist thing around all of this. Dana 25 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 3: is an incredible investigative reporter. She wrote the book The 26 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 3: Everything War, and this is a great conversation and also 27 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 3: one that sort of perfectly relates to the next thing 28 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,839 Speaker 3: we're going to talk about here on the podcast, which 29 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 3: is that my friend and colleague Ed Ludlow, co host 30 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 3: of the Bloomberg Technology television show, is joining from our 31 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: SF office. He and I just wrote a cover story 32 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 3: about all the ways that Elon Musk's business empire is stretched, 33 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 3: and we're gonna have a conversation about that. 34 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 4: Ed, Hello, good morning. 35 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 3: You are, in addition to the co host of Bloomberg Technology, 36 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 3: like you are just super plugged into the world of tech, 37 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,000 Speaker 3: and in particular are plugged in to the world of 38 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 3: Elon Musk. You and I talk in private about this 39 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 3: stuff all the time, so it's kind of cool that 40 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 3: we're doing this now. The story, just for people who 41 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 3: haven't read it yet and hopefully you will, is about 42 00:02:12,960 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 3: the way that Elon's companies are operating at a time 43 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,919 Speaker 3: of all of this political uncertainty, that Elon is maybe 44 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:24,959 Speaker 3: stretched more thinly than he ever has, Like he's coming 45 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 3: back to Washington quote unquote at a time of extreme 46 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,840 Speaker 3: political pressure, this fight with President Trump, these threats to 47 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: start a new political party, and at the same time 48 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 3: you have all of these challenges. And in the story, 49 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 3: you and I sort of break it down into three buckets, 50 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 3: and I figured we could sort of start with the 51 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 3: one that actually comes last in the story, but I 52 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 3: think makes sense to start with first here, which is Xai. 53 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:56,239 Speaker 3: Sure this company ed operates chatbots. It is the technology 54 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 3: behind Grock on Twitter, or x as it's now called, 55 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 3: And as our colleagues of Bloomberg have reported, it's losing 56 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 3: something like a billion dollars a month. There's been this 57 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 3: swirl of controversy. The words mecha hitler have been uttered 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 3: several times over the last couple of weeks. ED, what 59 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 3: is the bull case? Like, like, would do you see 60 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 3: any signs of actual progress? Like I just rattle off 61 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 3: a bunch of kind of concerning things about Xai, Like 62 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 3: what are investors getting excited about? 63 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: Here? 64 00:03:25,400 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 4: Well, the investors would point you to to how Xai 65 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 4: went about introducing GROCK four and GROK four Heavy, which 66 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 4: is its latest models, and the way that they would 67 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 4: put it is well, XAI did the sort of non 68 00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 4: traditional Elon Musk thing, which was that they had a 69 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 4: sort of more muted, calm technical presentation that was detailed 70 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 4: and not so much off the cuff, like you and 71 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 4: I've been to all these Tesla events or SpaceX events 72 00:03:50,720 --> 00:03:53,520 Speaker 4: where must always goes off script a little bit. But 73 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 4: with Grock four, the way they presented it was against 74 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 4: traditional benchmarks for other frontier or large language models, and 75 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 4: against those benchmarks it does really well. But what's so 76 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 4: interesting about it is that it's timing. Like timing is 77 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 4: kind of everything. So as we speak, the President is 78 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 4: going to kind of come out and tell the world 79 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 4: about what his plan for AI is. And it's kind 80 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,080 Speaker 4: of really notable that Musk isn't really there in the room, 81 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 4: so to speak, like he was at the absolute critical 82 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 4: juncture from a policy perspective. But as you and I 83 00:04:24,320 --> 00:04:26,920 Speaker 4: discussed and we report throughout the story, like XAI is 84 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 4: Musk's obsession. He has this kind of like chip on 85 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 4: his shoulder that XAI should have a valuation that's competitive 86 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 4: with open Ai, where he was one of the sort 87 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 4: of original founders and he has that beef of Sam Altman, 88 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 4: and he also is like super bullish on its capabilities. 89 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 4: But as you said, like financially it's burning through cash. 90 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:48,159 Speaker 4: It's a bit sort of tongue in cheek. And the 91 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 4: bit that we look at is like in the magazine 92 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 4: piece is like, is Elon there in the room? Like 93 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 4: what is he doing amidst all the rest of the 94 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,039 Speaker 4: chaos and his political and career life. 95 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 3: Here's us, we're to me. Like these ai companies open 96 00:05:03,480 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 3: ai is good example, are both consumer products and like 97 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 3: business software products, and like open ai sort of famously 98 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:15,000 Speaker 3: started as as essentially a consumer product, a bunch of 99 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 3: people making funny stuff to put on Twitter, essentially like 100 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,679 Speaker 3: asking open ai to write a poem about you know whatever, 101 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 3: the Coldplay couple or something right, and Grock succeeds. I 102 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 3: think on that level, like Rock is everywhere on Twitter. 103 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 3: Probably doesn't hurt that Elon Musk owns the platform, but 104 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 3: like on X these days, you know, it's like it 105 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 3: seems like every other tweet is somebody either interacting with 106 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 3: Rock or being like Grock, Is this true? As kind 107 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 3: of a dunk or reposting something about Rock and of 108 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 3: course probably no coincidence that Elano owns both those products. 109 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 3: But the future here is people paying for this stuff, 110 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 3: and it's so hard for me to imagine somebody like 111 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 3: wanting to Grock api instead of the open Ai API 112 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 3: or something like that, just because of all the controversy 113 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: that we're talking about. 114 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 4: Yeah, the way that some XAI is is kind of 115 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 4: like classic Musk play or Elon inc History, which is 116 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 4: move fast and break things. This is kind of one 117 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 4: of the taglines of the story, like Musk inventing his 118 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 4: way out of trouble. But what they have done in 119 00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 4: an incredibly short amount of time is impressive. 120 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: Right. 121 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 4: The only founded xai a couple of years ago. There 122 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,719 Speaker 4: are people that work at Xai whose job is to 123 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 4: sell to enterprise customers, but honestly, we have no idea 124 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 4: how that's going really. You know. The interface is the 125 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,560 Speaker 4: Grock chatbot, and I found that really interesting when Grock 126 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 4: four was presented that in the public's consciousness and in 127 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 4: the culture, there's no distinction between chatbot and the underlying technology. 128 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 4: It's just Grock. So it's all kind of a bit muddled. However, again, 129 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 4: you know, on common metrics and benchmarks. Grock four is performance. 130 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 4: You know what they did with their data center in Memphis, 131 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 4: which is called Colossus, is astonishing. I speak to a 132 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 4: lot of people in the AI infrastructure industry, and this 133 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 4: is the thing that Elon Musk is good at. Just 134 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 4: like in many ways, Rules be Damned, move fast. We're 135 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 4: doing this and no one can tell me otherwise. But 136 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 4: the net effect of that, or the negative of that, 137 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 4: is that you then have to go back and like 138 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 4: plug in the other holes. And you know is XAI. 139 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 4: I'm sure there's a lot of that company that should 140 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 4: be in place to commercialize. 141 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 3: Well yeah, and not only like Rules of Damned, but 142 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 3: being willing to kind of spend money quickly to invest, 143 00:07:25,520 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 3: which brings me to other thing I've sort of been 144 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,800 Speaker 3: wondering about. I mean, one thing that has created I 145 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 3: think strength in Elon Musk's empire is and I hate 146 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 3: to use this word, but like synergy. Right, Like these 147 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 3: companies are not independent, they are connected, and like sometimes 148 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 3: often maybe those connections have been useful to Elon Musk. 149 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 3: Like for sure, SpaceX's success has helped propel Tesla's brand, 150 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,840 Speaker 3: right like the aura of genius around Elon musk Helps, 151 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: which is created i'd say largely by SpaceX, has sort 152 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 3: of allowed Tesla to claim some of that mantle and 153 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: ed on the topic of X losing money and X 154 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 3: needing money. You know, you have reported with our colleague 155 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 3: Dana Holp on the fact that it's not just that 156 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: he's raising all his money from investors, he's raising the 157 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 3: money from his own company. SpaceX is going to put 158 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 3: or try to put anyway, two billion dollars into XAI. 159 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 3: Elon has also said that Tesla is going to try 160 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: to put five billion dollars in XAI. Why is this happening? 161 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 3: To me? This seems like evidence of brittleness, But I'm 162 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 3: kind of curious what you think. 163 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 4: Yeah, brittleness or interruptability or call it whatever you want. 164 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 4: I mean, the main thing that we'll get into, I'm sure, 165 00:08:40,679 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 4: is this idea that if you count all of the 166 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 4: companies that Elon must involved in on one or two hands, 167 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 4: that's a lot of his time split between very different domains, 168 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 4: but there is overlap between them, and that's always been 169 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 4: the case, right Like, particularly in R and D. There's 170 00:08:54,720 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 4: loads of history in Tesla and SpaceX doing shared work 171 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 4: on materials for example, some of that led to the 172 00:09:02,440 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 4: heat sing or the heat discs on the starship. But 173 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 4: the real question is the future. So why is SpaceX 174 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 4: putting two billion dollars into XAI? Why would Tesla do that? 175 00:09:12,720 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 4: And the way that investors and people inside all these 176 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 4: companies explain it to me is vertically integrated AI infrastructure 177 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 4: or AI technology. 178 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:23,720 Speaker 3: Stack Grock and your Tesla baby. 179 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's all of the above. And like you know, 180 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 4: XAI is the frontier or large language model maker. It 181 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: writes the underlying technology. You need a way of interacting 182 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 4: with that technology. So we have groc available as a 183 00:09:36,360 --> 00:09:39,560 Speaker 4: standalone app or through the x social media platform interface 184 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 4: and now inside the Tesla vehicle. Right, So if you 185 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:44,440 Speaker 4: are a Tesla owner listening to this, you'll know that 186 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 4: one of the frustrations is can't use Apple car Play 187 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 4: in a Tesla, so it doesn't have the same sort 188 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:54,680 Speaker 4: of serie capabilities or other there are other voice assistants available, 189 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 4: but now Grock kind of fixes that. The next evolution 190 00:09:57,800 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 4: of that is like you start to lose the thread 191 00:09:59,440 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 4: a bit, which is why SpaceX well data is the 192 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 4: underpinning of all things now and The way that people 193 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 4: pitch it to me is that Starlink basically provides you 194 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 4: with the most beautiful space based data center you could 195 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 4: ever have the ability, particularly on inference. So rather than 196 00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 4: training models by Xai people running them, you have low latency, 197 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 4: super high speed automatic connection at low cost, and Starlink 198 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,640 Speaker 4: kind of facilitates us using all of that. The Tesla 199 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 4: bit is where I start to lose a thread a 200 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 4: bit beyond just going into vehicles and making cars more appealing. 201 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 3: You can talk to you know, your anti wok Ai 202 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 3: while you're driving. I honestly think what you're saying about. 203 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 3: How the investors rationalize this is important because it helps 204 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 3: get at like both the psychology and maybe the ball 205 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,280 Speaker 3: case for some of these companies. It really does, to me, though, 206 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 3: feel just like a rationalization, and because the real reason 207 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 3: is Elon wants it and like they believe in Elon, and. 208 00:10:59,240 --> 00:11:02,319 Speaker 4: Elon notes the limits right, So on x the social platform, 209 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 4: somebody said, oh, Tesla should just buy Xai outright, and 210 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 4: must say no, I don't believe that. But again, the 211 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:10,559 Speaker 4: way it's explained to me is that there's a high 212 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 4: degree of crossover, and this brings us back to the 213 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 4: magazine piece and a must relationship or roller coaster of 214 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 4: relationship with the president. Each of these companies, SpaceX, Tesla, XAI, 215 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:27,679 Speaker 4: even Boring Co and Neuralink have distinct regulatory exposure. They 216 00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 4: are within their own domains. There's a specific regulatory body 217 00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 4: for each and if they were suddenly to come under 218 00:11:32,920 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 4: one umbrella, one big conglomerate, I think most insiders in 219 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,920 Speaker 4: that company and people close to Mask and investors that 220 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 4: we spoke to know that that would be a nightmare. 221 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 4: So he's at least aware enough to say there's a 222 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 4: limit to how integrated these companies can be. 223 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 3: Let's move on to SpaceX at least, yeah, because you 224 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 3: know this two billion dollar investment or whatever. The thing 225 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 3: that I've wondered is like, doesn't SpaceX need that two dollars? 226 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:06,480 Speaker 3: I'm curious ed as you talk to investors in Elon 227 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:10,200 Speaker 3: Musk how they see SpaceX right now, because I mean, 228 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 3: clearly it's like the strongest of the companies, I'd say, 229 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 3: but also there's potential weakness. 230 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 4: Here too, just based on data. In fact, you know, 231 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 4: SpaceX dominates the vast majority of commercial payload to orbit, 232 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 4: whether that payload be human or satellite based. This is 233 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 4: the umbrella story that so beautifully captured through SpaceX, which 234 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,199 Speaker 4: is Musk's relationship with the President and the administration giveth, 235 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 4: but they also taketh away. And you know, you should 236 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:41,640 Speaker 4: look at this in the in the lens of exposure. 237 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 4: So SpaceX has many commercial contracts with third parties, but 238 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 4: it is reliant on NASA contracts and grants. It has 239 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,719 Speaker 4: many DoD and Pentagon contracts with the defense apparatus of 240 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 4: this nation. And when the going was good, the story 241 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 4: was really simple, particularly through starlink. If I am a 242 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 4: head of state of a country somewhere in the world, 243 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 4: I would like to quite get close to President Trump. 244 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 4: What shall I do? Well, maybe I could offer Elon 245 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 4: Musks starlink access in this country. Just make it easy 246 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 4: for him, right. 247 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 3: If you don't have a sixteen million dollar lasted settlement 248 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 3: to pay, that is the best option. 249 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 4: Right, and then take us away. You know, fast forward 250 00:13:21,240 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 4: to a deteriorating relationship, and the president's literal threat was 251 00:13:24,840 --> 00:13:27,840 Speaker 4: I will cancel all of these federal contracts for SpaceX, 252 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 4: which would have a dent. Your original question was does 253 00:13:30,679 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 4: SpaceX need the money SpaceX? Is it a point where 254 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 4: the Starlink business space based constellation internet, which is on 255 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 4: paper a much higher margin business, has eclipsed launching in 256 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 4: terms of revenue. But Musk has always said that that 257 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 4: there is a ceiling to the amount of money you 258 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 4: can make from sending stuff into space. Here's the crux 259 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 4: of the issue for the investors. Musk's big picture is 260 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 4: SpaceX lives as the Starship to get humankind to Mars. 261 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 4: The investors look at st as a high margin space based, 262 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,760 Speaker 4: consolation based internet and think that's the future, and we'd 263 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 4: love that to be spun out. We'd love for it 264 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 4: to be IPO's and not looking as far ahead as Mars. Necessarily. 265 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I do wonder how badly Starlink needs Starship to work, 266 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: you know, because the great thing about Starship is you 267 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 3: could put a lot of Starlink satellites into orbit at once. 268 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 3: There are questions, I've heard this in my own reporting. 269 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 3: There are questions about what the finances of Starlink look 270 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 3: like if you don't eventually make these gigantic rockets work. Right, 271 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 3: all right, let's move on to Tesla. This is topical 272 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 3: both because I think it's the most extreme case of 273 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 3: the ways in which Musk's sort of business is colliding 274 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 3: with politics. Also Tesla's reporting earnings tomorrow. You've got demand 275 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 3: for cars, for Tesla cars anyway falling, you have competition 276 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 3: from China. You have maybe a robotaxi business that's off 277 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 3: to sort of a slowish start. And I have struggled 278 00:14:58,840 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 3: to find a silver line here for this company, especially 279 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,000 Speaker 3: from the point of view an investor. And I'm kind 280 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 3: of curious, like where investors see a ballcase here at 281 00:15:07,760 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 3: this point, with the stark very highly valued and all 282 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: of the challenges that I just laid. 283 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 4: Out, the ballcase is and would have been that Elon 284 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 4: Musk went into the White House and got in close 285 00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 4: proximity with the President in order to come out of 286 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,960 Speaker 4: the White House with policy, federal level policy that is 287 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 4: favorable for a robotaxi future. To be fair or the 288 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 4: to be sure is that in the lead up to 289 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 4: November's election, must campaigned on the deficit and the budget 290 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,560 Speaker 4: and cutting back on behalf of a swollen government. But 291 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 4: the sense, the very real sense I get, is that 292 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 4: he had some foresight that he would be able and 293 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 4: indeed he said it, you know, on an earnings call 294 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 4: prior to November's election. Look, if I get a formal 295 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 4: position in the government, I'm going to use it to 296 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 4: advocate for federal level robotaxi frameworks. And that's important because now, 297 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 4: even though there's legislation that's been introduced and is due 298 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 4: to pass its way through Congress, there isn't a sort 299 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 4: of nationwide set of rules. It's kind of state by state. 300 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 4: But the Tesla future is one where they own and 301 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 4: operate a proprietary ride hailing platform with their own cyber 302 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: cabs and consumer vehicles that consumers agree to submit to 303 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 4: the fleet. But on the cyber cab part, in particular, 304 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 4: the number of vehicles you can have on public roads 305 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 4: with out steering wheel no driver controls is limited to 306 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 4: a few thousand at the moment, and obviously, if Elon 307 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:35,400 Speaker 4: is to realize this great, big dream of tens of 308 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 4: thousands or more robotaxis driving around America, then those rules 309 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,600 Speaker 4: will need to change. So he went in to get that. 310 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 4: As it stands, he hasn't come out with that. And 311 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 4: so that's how I look at it, as well as 312 00:16:47,920 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 4: like you tell me, it's a kind of simple story, 313 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 4: and that Tesla is the only publicly traded proxy for 314 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 4: sentiment of Elon Inc. So you just follow the stock. 315 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it. You're right, And that is such a 316 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 3: big part of the story, the sort of both the 317 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,400 Speaker 3: fandom aspect, but also the fact that you cannot buy 318 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 3: stock at least not easily in SpaceX or xai. And 319 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:10,880 Speaker 3: do you think we talk on this podcast? I don't 320 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:12,440 Speaker 3: know if this is kind of filtered to you. Do 321 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 3: you know about mahmout No, Musk always makes up with Trump. 322 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,080 Speaker 4: It's the idea, okay, that. 323 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 3: Coined by me and David Popadopolis, that there is mutual 324 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 3: self interest here that these two men will move inexorably 325 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: closer together because, as you say, like, it's in Elon's interest. 326 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,439 Speaker 3: I think also it's in Donald Trump's interest because Musk 327 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 3: is such an important donor and donor to Republicans. 328 00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 4: Was yeah, right, Republicans. 329 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, you see a path here? Do you see any 330 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 3: way they would want to try to make up? I mean, 331 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 3: do you see any chance of that or has that 332 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 3: ship sailed? 333 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 4: The way that I look at it as a technology 334 00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 4: journalist in particular, is that the goals of Tesla, as 335 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 4: a US manufacturer of hardware and the US developer of software. 336 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 4: Same with XAI is just highly analogous with the ambitions 337 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 4: of this administration. There is an irony, and I know 338 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 4: that in this calendar week when you and I are speaking, 339 00:18:07,800 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 4: the world is going to find out a lot more 340 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 4: about how the Trump administration will approach AI from a 341 00:18:12,760 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 4: regulatory and policy perspective, and as it stands, must won't 342 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 4: be there. Ironically, the test rinding score will be at 343 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,080 Speaker 4: the same time and kind of underway. But you know, 344 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 4: SpaceX is the national champion of space exploration pardon the 345 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 4: play on the name. Tesla is the US manufacturer of 346 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 4: automobiles electric vehicles, even if the future is different, and 347 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 4: they kind of all agree on that where they fell apart. 348 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 4: You know, Musk at least he's consistent in some respects, 349 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:43,359 Speaker 4: and he was in the lead up to November's election, 350 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 4: was like, look, I'm really worried about the ballooning budget 351 00:18:47,359 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 4: and bringing the deficit down and government spending and this 352 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 4: is why I'm going into dog. And he didn't achieve 353 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 4: the things necessarily that he said that he would. But 354 00:18:56,640 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 4: the president, through the big beautiful bill and the tax bill, 355 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 4: they clearly have a point of fiscal difference. Now they've 356 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 4: fallen out over that well, which seems to be I 357 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 4: don't know, you know, you tell me if I'm wrong. 358 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: Certainly true, I agree with everything you just said. But 359 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,719 Speaker 3: there's also and maybe we'll see this on the earnings call. 360 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 3: I think this is a topic too for future podcasts. 361 00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 3: But like the Big Beautiful Bill, now, the Big Beautiful Act, 362 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 3: I guess is very bad for Tesla. I mean, there's 363 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 3: a chance that Tesla loses money in the fourth quarter 364 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,520 Speaker 3: because of this bill. And I think it's not just 365 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 3: the fact that the deficits went up according to projections 366 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 3: by the Congression Budget Office, went up, and Elon Musk 367 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 3: was all about, you know, being a deficit hawk, but 368 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 3: also that while that was happening, all of this money 369 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 3: is being pulled away from Elon Musk's interests, right. 370 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 4: I mean, there is never enough time to go line 371 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 4: by line through everything Musk has said any given week, 372 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 4: and going back to the start of the year, the 373 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 4: question is their staying power relative to the rest of 374 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 4: the automotive industry, And Musk would argue, yeah, we got this. 375 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 3: All right, Ed. It is always fun to talk to you. 376 00:19:57,720 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 3: Thanks again for doing this and we'll talk soon. 377 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 4: A top on a thank you very much. 378 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 3: All Right, we've been talking about the way that Elon 379 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 3: Musk's business empire is stretched thin. But of course, part 380 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 3: of why so many people have been concerned, why investors 381 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 3: are concerned, is it's not just the business empire, it's 382 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 3: also his personal life. And that's where the next conversation 383 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 3: really becomes interesting. This is an interview that our friend 384 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 3: and Elon and regular Sarah Fryar did with the Wall 385 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,639 Speaker 3: Street Journal reporter Dana Mattioli about Elon and his kids. 386 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: Have a listen, Dana, thank you so much for coming here. 387 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:40,640 Speaker 1: I'll let you give us the summary of this reporting 388 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: and how you came to reveal this story to the 389 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:45,840 Speaker 1: world in the Wall Street Journal. 390 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for having me. Yeah. In March, and 391 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 2: probably in early March, I sat down with one of 392 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: my editors, Chris Stewart, who's that investigations at the Wall 393 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 2: Street Journal, and I'd been hearing and my colleagues have 394 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 2: been hearing that Elon had more kids than were known about, 395 00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: and we started thinking about this pro natalist movement out 396 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 2: of the Valley and what that means, and also what 397 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:11,280 Speaker 2: it would mean for the world's richest man who at 398 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: that period of time was definitely one of the most 399 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 2: powerful people in the world on a political stage. He 400 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 2: was the biggest donor to Donald Trump's a reelection effort, 401 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty million dollars for this big super 402 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 2: pack he created, and he was like really by Trump's 403 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 2: side every step of the way back in March April timeframe. 404 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 2: Making these huge decisions for average Americans is part of DOGE. 405 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:35,439 Speaker 2: So yeah, we wanted to reveal what it was like 406 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 2: being opposite the world's most powerful and richest man on 407 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,439 Speaker 2: custody if you had children with him, and I was 408 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,760 Speaker 2: able to get a lot of access to one of 409 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 2: the people that he has a baby with, Ashley Saint Clair, 410 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 2: and understand the financial arrangements behind having a baby with 411 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,719 Speaker 2: Elon Musk, the custody arrangements, And what we came to 412 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 2: learn is that having a baby with Elon Musk is 413 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 2: often a very big power struggle. That in the situation 414 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 2: that I was able to reveal, this twenty six year 415 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 2: old woman who had his baby was in this very 416 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 2: contentious paternity battle with him where he wouldn't acknowledge paternity 417 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: and he was pressuring her not to have legal representation 418 00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 2: in these matters, and there were very one sided, lopsided 419 00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 2: terms that she was feeling pressured to accept, and we 420 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 2: wanted to really just portray for our readers what that 421 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 2: was like at a time when Elon is the world's 422 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 2: richest man, was one of the most powerful people in 423 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,520 Speaker 2: the world on the political stage, and how messy and 424 00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 2: complicated his personal life was behind the scenes. 425 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: And you know, when you're at the Wall Street Journal, 426 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: you're writing for a business audience. And one thing that 427 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 1: really struck me about this story is the main character 428 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: fighting Elon Musk's battles for him him is Jared Britschall, 429 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,479 Speaker 1: who's the head of his family office. He's listed as 430 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: the CFO for several of his companies. He's the one who, 431 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: as you know it in the story, led the Tunere 432 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: fifty million investment in Donald Trump's reelection. He's the guy 433 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,719 Speaker 1: who does everything. He's like the fixer for Elon, and 434 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: it was really interesting to see him take on this role. 435 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: Can you explain how he manages what Musk calls his 436 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: legion of children h That was. 437 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 2: Really interesting for us too, because Jared is listed as 438 00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 2: an executive at a bunch of Elon Musk Companies. He's 439 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:37,919 Speaker 2: his right hand man. He goes to lots of his 440 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: business meetings with him. He's like sort of a conduit 441 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 2: on the business side. But behind the scenes, he also 442 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:47,520 Speaker 2: had this other see to your role where he's managing 443 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 2: these women having babies with Musk and that goes to 444 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 2: you know, managing the NDAs that they sign acquiring land 445 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,520 Speaker 2: for a compound out in Austin where Elon would like 446 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: all these kids and these moms to live. Was involved 447 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,200 Speaker 2: in that and also you know, in trying to make 448 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 2: them agree to some onerous terms that Elon would like 449 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,040 Speaker 2: them to accept in exchange for money. And what I 450 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,360 Speaker 2: found is, you know, through lots of text messages, phone calls, 451 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 2: Jared's own words was that he was often the enforcer. 452 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 2: He makes these veiled threats to Ashley in a phone 453 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 2: call from December where he says, you know, Elon is 454 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: a really great guy, but there's another side to him 455 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: that if the women he's in relationships with get legal counsel, 456 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 2: you know, things often change. It doesn't come to a 457 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: nice outcome for them, right, So there's that side to 458 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 2: him too, and we just see him really being the 459 00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: enforcer There's another scene in the story that I thought 460 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,679 Speaker 2: was just like really gripping, where Ashley Saint Clair is 461 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: giving birth. She's in the hospital in labor by herself 462 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 2: because Elon was not there, and Jared is sending her 463 00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 2: signal messages saying, don't put Elon's name on the birth certificate. 464 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: And this is a woman in labor, and Jared is 465 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 2: on top of things like sending her very frequent updates. 466 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: About putting her in her place. 467 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, And it's very clear from the phone calls 468 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: from other messages that this is not the first time 469 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: he's done that. This is very standard for him in 470 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 2: these sorts of arrangements. 471 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 1: And he waits often until she's literally in the delivery 472 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 1: room to make that request. 473 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 2: Or yeah, that's right. And shortly after that's when an 474 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,200 Speaker 2: NDA showed up for her to sign that she found 475 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,280 Speaker 2: to be really just one sided and not fair and. 476 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,640 Speaker 1: In a medically traumatic moment for getting handed DA exactly. 477 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: And to be clear, the reason that Musk wants her 478 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: to sign the NDA, or the reason that he gives 479 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,119 Speaker 1: at least through Jared, is that he cares about privacy. 480 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,720 Speaker 1: He says, you know, I'm second in line after Trump 481 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:55,159 Speaker 1: for assassination and if all hell breaks loose, like this 482 00:25:55,400 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 1: is for protection of the child. But then in this agreement, 483 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: I mean, it didn't seem to really line up with 484 00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 1: that idea of protecting the child. 485 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,719 Speaker 2: Now that that is the excuse he gave us, that 486 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 2: it would protect the child if the child's progeny was 487 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: not known, But then you'd see him do things that 488 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 2: would be really conflicting with that statement. Right at the 489 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,959 Speaker 2: same time, he's bringing his four year old son X 490 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:27,440 Speaker 2: to really high profile situations, target rich environments where there 491 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 2: could be bad actors. You know, people have made assassination 492 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,600 Speaker 2: attempt on Donald Trump, and then there's this child on 493 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,639 Speaker 2: his shoulders around Donald Trump and these rallies and you know, 494 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 2: at the White House grounds. So people have called that 495 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 2: out as hypocritical as well. 496 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: What does Musk mean when he talks about having a legion. 497 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a term that evokes an army, like 498 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:52,520 Speaker 1: you think of an army when you think of a legion, Like, 499 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: why is he using that language to describe the children 500 00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: that will have as DNA. 501 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So Musk ascribes to a belief that there are 502 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: not enough children being born in the US in Western Europe. 503 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 2: He's kind of in this pro natalist category that is 504 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: worried about population decline, and he's worried that if we 505 00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 2: can't even populate the Earth, how will we populate Mars, 506 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 2: which is his ultimate goal through his company called SpaceX, 507 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 2: and he has taken it upon himself. He encourages other 508 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 2: people to have a lot of children as well, especially 509 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 2: well educated people, but he's also taken it upon himself 510 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 2: to live out that mission. And what's fascinating to me 511 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,240 Speaker 2: is in text messages to Ashley that I was able 512 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:33,000 Speaker 2: to view, he tells her you should have ten children. 513 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 2: He even tells her that, you know, in order to 514 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,840 Speaker 2: have our legion of babies, we should have lots of 515 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: surrogates at the same time to mass populate, right, not 516 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 2: enough just to have one child at once, you know, 517 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 2: Let's bring on surrogates and have more babies. And the 518 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 2: people I spoke to around him think that there are 519 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: many more babies, that this is just the tip of 520 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 2: the iceberg. The fourteen that are publicly. 521 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 1: Known on the scale of well, you know, now to 522 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: Pavlo d'erov one hundred, it's a telegram ceo who has 523 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 1: one hundred children, created with his sperm. Where is Musk 524 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,000 Speaker 1: on that trajectory? 525 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: So we don't know for sure. I mean, we did 526 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 2: break in the story that he has given his sperm 527 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 2: to people he doesn't even know. There's an example in 528 00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 2: the story where officials from Japan come to Austin to 529 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 2: meet with him and ask for his sperm for some 530 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 2: very high profile Japanese women, and he says yes. He 531 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 2: tells Ashley that, you know, no romance involved, He's just 532 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 2: setting off a sperm sample. So there's that situation. And 533 00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 2: then we have situations where we know he used his 534 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: platform X, which he bought in twenty twenty two, to 535 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: try to recruit women to have babies with, oftentimes women 536 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 2: he didn't know. That's actually how it started with Ashley. 537 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 2: There's also another example and the story where he reaches 538 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: out to an influencer named Tiffany Fong starts interacting with 539 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,160 Speaker 2: her here and there, liking her posts. 540 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 1: Set Okay, this is the part of the we're talking 541 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: about stories were jealous of. This is a part of 542 00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: the story I was very jealous of because I've frequently 543 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: thought about, like, now that muss is and of X 544 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: the social network, how is he using that control for 545 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: personal gain or adjusting the rules. And you have all 546 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: these people who are making money off of their posts 547 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,800 Speaker 1: on X and does it benefit them to be close 548 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: to Elon, to get retweeted by Elon? And you show 549 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:21,959 Speaker 1: how that business relationship got a little bit complicated by 550 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: Musk's request. 551 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,400 Speaker 2: Well, in short, if Elon starts interacting with your posts 552 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 2: on X and you are an influencer or you're part 553 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 2: of their program where you get paid for interactions, it's 554 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,440 Speaker 2: a gold mine for you that could make a meaningful 555 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: difference in your following, in the interactions and your payouts. 556 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 2: And he started doing that with this influencer named Tiffany Fong, 557 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: also more of a right wing influencer in the bitcoin space. 558 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,560 Speaker 2: He starts interacting with her and she sees her followers 559 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,680 Speaker 2: just explode on X. He's retweeting her, he's in her comments, 560 00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 2: he's sending flirty messages to her, and then one day 561 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: he hops into her DMS and he asked if she'd 562 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: be interested in pairing one of his babies. She was 563 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 2: in a relationship at the time with her boyfriend. It 564 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,239 Speaker 2: sort of came out of nowhere and she winds up 565 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 2: declining the offerer, but she tells a few people, including 566 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 2: Ashley Saint Clair about it, and this gets back to 567 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: Elon and then he chides her for not using discretion 568 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: for telling anyone that he offered her a baby, and 569 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: then he unfollows her, and from there she goes from 570 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: having twenty one thousand dollars a month in revenue and 571 00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 2: X went at the height of when he's interacting with 572 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 2: her to seeing that fall off a cliff because the 573 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 2: followers dry up, the interactions dry up, and has a 574 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 2: meaningful effect on her income when this is the main 575 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 2: source of income. So there are consequences to that, especially 576 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: for these influencers that rely on X for a lot 577 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: of money. 578 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 1: As you look at at this story and like you've 579 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: been a business reporter for a long time, like, how 580 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: do you apply what you learn here to understanding musk 581 00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: the businessman, Because that's a very clear example of how 582 00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:05,600 Speaker 1: he's mixing his business goals with his baby making goals, 583 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:07,520 Speaker 1: or maybe they are one and the same. Maybe that's 584 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: all the umbrella under which he wants to take us 585 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: to Mars is adding more babies to the world, and 586 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 1: he sees it as like a business transaction to do that. 587 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:20,479 Speaker 1: But what did learning about Birchall's role, Tiffany's problem, Ashley 588 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: Saint Clair's legal battle, how does that color our perception 589 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: of Musk the businessman. 590 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's a lot of it's intertwined. What 591 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 2: we learned from reporting out the story is that Musk 592 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: runs five different companies and the greater goal of all 593 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,880 Speaker 2: of them is to one day get humans into a 594 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 2: multiplanetary existence and get to Mars. So SpaceX is overtly that, right, 595 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 2: But even the profits from the other ones go toward 596 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 2: that mission. And then at his home life is supporting 597 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 2: that mission too, because he wants to reverse population decline. 598 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 2: So I think a lot of it is intertwined. And 599 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 2: I think there's blurred lines between some of the company 600 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 2: behavior and his personal behavior, like as you see him 601 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,480 Speaker 2: using you know, his tweets to support different causes, like 602 00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 2: you know, run the election. He got very political starting 603 00:32:09,040 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 2: last year about you know, Trump's reelection. That was like 604 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 2: more about personal goals, right, and what we see him 605 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 2: doing in the DMS is more about his personal life. 606 00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 2: So I think a lot of it is really intertwined. 607 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 1: It's so interesting too, Like we talked earlier in our 608 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: conversation about how he's a man of contradictions. I actually 609 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,360 Speaker 1: saw your story cited by Charlie Warzel in his piece 610 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: in the Atlantic about how Musk is playing God, or 611 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,640 Speaker 1: at least that was his argument that, you know, as 612 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:43,800 Speaker 1: he has this mission of furthering Western civilization, he is 613 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: through the cuts US AID, leading to a lot of 614 00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: deaths in countries in Africa. And I'm curious to you 615 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 1: if you have a thought on that argument or if 616 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: that was part of your takeaway too as you're looking 617 00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: at these decisions that Musks makes. 618 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: Well. I think it's interesting when you speak to people 619 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,360 Speaker 2: in the pro natalist community the areas that they target 620 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 2: that are concerns for them. They oftentimes reference to the 621 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 2: US in particular, and like Western Europe. And there is 622 00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 2: a quote in the story where Musk tells someone that 623 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 2: he is worried that third world countries are outbreading the 624 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: US and Western Europe. 625 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 4: Right. 626 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 2: I think that's like pretty telling that there's concern for 627 00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 2: specific geographies but not others. 628 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the idea, I guess you also quote Shavon 629 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 1: Zillah saying that she was asked to make children with 630 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: Musk because he wants to add more smart people to 631 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: the world his definition of smart people. 632 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he's told other people that too. He really 633 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: wants very intelligent people to breed more. That's definitely one 634 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 2: of his goals. 635 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: Dana Mattioli, thank you so much for being here. I 636 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 1: love hearing your take, and I really enjoyed reading your 637 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: take on another billionaire who we talk about often, Jeff Bezos. 638 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: Dana Mattioli's book is called The Everything War. It's a 639 00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: story of Amazon's dominance and includes a lot of great 640 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: detail on Bezos and his fight in Washington. Thank you 641 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: so much for being here, and good luck with all 642 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:14,960 Speaker 1: the scoops. 643 00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. 644 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 3: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong and edited by 645 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 3: Anna Masarakis. Blake Maples handles engineering, and Dave Purcell fact checks. 646 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:36,360 Speaker 3: Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrickson. The Elannin theme is 647 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,200 Speaker 3: written and performed by Taka Yazuzawa and Alex Sagiera. Sage 648 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,759 Speaker 3: Bauman is head of Bloomberg Podcast. A big thanks to 649 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 3: our supporters Joel Webber and Bradstone. I'm Max Chafkin. If 650 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:47,919 Speaker 3: you have a minute, rate and review our show, it'll 651 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 3: help other listeners find us, and we will see you 652 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 3: next week.