1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:02,040 Speaker 1: Deep in the back of your mind, you've always had 2 00:00:02,080 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 1: the feeling that there's something strange about reality. Various, supernay 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:09,319 Speaker 1: definitely a part and hunch of a week. On our 4 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,039 Speaker 1: award winning science podcast stuff About your Mind, we examine 5 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: neurological quandities, cosmic mystery, evolutionary marvels, and our trans human future, 6 00:00:16,680 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: Golden Share, geodesic stole pass sweeps around. Join us on 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: the Stuffable your Mind podcast to explore the weirdest corners 8 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:26,880 Speaker 1: of technology, history, philosophy, mythology in the human mind. Check 9 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: out Stuffable your Mind dot com to learn more. Welcome 10 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: to stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff Works 11 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:45,159 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello when Welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 12 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about the legal 13 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: history of sexual harassment, which is a relatively new phrase 14 00:00:54,040 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: compared to how long sexual harassment in the workplace has 15 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,480 Speaker 1: been going on. So you mean a couple of decades 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: versus forever? Yes? Yes, And I feel like Caroline half 17 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 1: the time when we talk about sexual harassment in the workplace, 18 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: it's in joking way because it seems like any kind 19 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment training that you have to go through 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:24,720 Speaker 1: if you have a job is painful, awkward, sometimes downright 21 00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:29,160 Speaker 1: weird and uncomfortable. Yeah, you weren't there for our last 22 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,320 Speaker 1: sexual harassment training, were you know? I was not. I 23 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 1: was out of town. Don't tell hr. Yeah, it was horrifying. 24 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:40,759 Speaker 1: Like I think, I feel more traumatized by the sexual 25 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: harassment training that we received, uh than any possible like 26 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: rude comment I've ever received in the workplace because of 27 00:01:50,040 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: graphic detail. Can you say it on the podcast? Um? 28 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: There were. It was two brilliant women giving the presentation, 29 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: and one of them used some hand motions and uh, 30 00:02:05,840 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: some terminology that I don't think she realized had pre 31 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: existing connotations of a way more sexual nature than she intended. 32 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 1: I was horrifying. So it sounds like the sexual harassment 33 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: training would have qualified as sexual harassment had it not 34 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 1: been training. I think that's the general feeling of the room. Yeah, 35 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: and it always seems to like any videos associating with 36 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: sexual harassment training, they just stopped shooting them after like 37 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: I know, well, they probably all made them after the 38 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,839 Speaker 1: Anita Hill trial, yes, which we have a whole episode 39 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:48,000 Speaker 1: about Anita Hill and the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearing right 40 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: after this um and speaking of which I mean, this 41 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,680 Speaker 1: term sexual harassment came about in the seventies, but it 42 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: wasn't until that to help testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, 43 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: that it really permeated our society. Yeah, because it took 44 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: something apparently that large and that big of a deal 45 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 1: to get people to be like, oh, is what I've 46 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: been doing wrong? Or oh is what that person has 47 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:23,280 Speaker 1: been doing wrong? Should I report it? Because back in 48 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 1: the seventies, in nineteen seventy four, to be precise, uh, 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 1: then Cornell instructor Lynn Farley coined the term. It came 50 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: out of this consciousness raising session that she was holding 51 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: as part of her class on women and work, and 52 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 1: she ended up using it publicly outside of her class 53 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 1: for the first time in nineteen and this caught the 54 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: attention of the New York Times. Yeah, I mean, in 55 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: this whole episode really goes to show how powerful our 56 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: languages once you, once we're able to name things, how 57 00:03:54,960 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: that can really speed up progress in terms of achieving justice. Um. Now, 58 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: if we want to know what sexual harassment is, precisely, 59 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: apparently sometimes it includes awkward sexual harassment training from women 60 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: using uh gesticulations PG. Thirteen gesticulations. Sure, Now, according to 61 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, sexual harassment equals quote, unwelcome 62 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:32,320 Speaker 1: sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or 63 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:37,480 Speaker 1: physical harassment of a sexual nature. But it is worth 64 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: noting that with these legal criteria, maybe a one off 65 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: incident might not fit as sexual harassment. It has to 66 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,440 Speaker 1: be so frequent and severe that it contributes to what's 67 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 1: called a hostile or offensive work environment, or when it 68 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,599 Speaker 1: results in an adverse employment decision, like the victim being 69 00:04:56,640 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 1: fired or demoted. But I mean, as we'll talk about 70 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: more in this episode, sexual harassment is so much more 71 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 1: than just making maybe offensive gestures or an offensive comment 72 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: or two. It's really more of a way to keep 73 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: women in their place, especially when they are in those 74 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,240 Speaker 1: more male dominated roles. It's more about power, it's not 75 00:05:21,279 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: about lust. These are the same conversations that we have 76 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: when we talk about rape and sexual assault, because one 77 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: could argue successfully that sexual harassment is really part of 78 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:35,440 Speaker 1: rape culture. Absolutely. I mean, I think that that power 79 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,920 Speaker 1: aspect is important to centralize in how we talk about 80 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: sexual harassment because anyone can be sexually harassed, and anyone 81 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: regardless of gender can be the harasser, um, But a 82 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 1: lot of times, while it does happen between co workers, 83 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 1: there does seem to be absolutely that power dynamic involved. 84 00:05:55,640 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 1: And while reported incidents of it have less because we 85 00:06:01,080 --> 00:06:03,159 Speaker 1: are being trained as to what is and is not 86 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: okay in the workplace, and I think because hopefully maybe 87 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 1: gender politics and awareness of rape culture are improving, but 88 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: it still happens all the time. Yeah. So in two 89 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: not coincidentally, on the heels of Anita Hills testimony, hight 90 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,000 Speaker 1: five percent of Americans said that they considered sexual harassment 91 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,919 Speaker 1: to be a persistent problem, and thirty two percent of 92 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: women said that they had experienced it. When you fast 93 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: forward to late that percentage to drop to But you 94 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:40,600 Speaker 1: also have to take into account ten percent of men 95 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: said that they had experienced it and twenty five percent 96 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: worried about false accusations. And that's coming from an ABC 97 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: News poll. Um. But you know, Christen, you said it 98 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: happens all the time, but reported incidents have lessened. There 99 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: was a Cosmos survey that we looked at too, that 100 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: said seventy of women and their survey that they talked 101 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: to just didn't report it, and there were a lot 102 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: of reasons. Among people who had experienced it but didn't 103 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: report it, four out of ten were either concerned about 104 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: the consequences of making a report or they didn't think 105 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: it would do any good. And I think because sexual 106 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: harassment and reporting sexual harassment is often lumped in with 107 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: the whole rhetoric of quote unquote political correctness, UM, there 108 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: is probably a fear that you won't even be believed 109 00:07:30,280 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: because I've also heard oftentimes, you know, we have the 110 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 1: jokes about sexual harassment in the workplace, but then also 111 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: so many complaints from men in particular. You know that 112 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,800 Speaker 1: in that survey, who worried about false accusations, But these 113 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 1: guys who will will sometimes be like, oh, well, I 114 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: don't want to do that. She'll suit sexual harassment and 115 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: really making light of what is a serious issue and 116 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: especially a serious issue for lgbt Q employees. UM. There 117 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: was a piece over at the Center for American Progress 118 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: which cited data from u c l a's Williams Institute 119 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: which found that fifteen to forty three percent of gay 120 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 1: and trans workers have experienced some form of discrimination on 121 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: the job, and that includes sexual harassment. And that same 122 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: Cosmo survey that I talked about a minute ago. From 123 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:26,640 Speaker 1: February found that one in three respondents had experienced sexual 124 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: harassment in the workplace. But there's an interesting division. So 125 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: eight one percent experienced verbal sexual harassment, reported unwanted touching 126 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: and sexual advances, But twenty five percent and this could 127 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: be like an age difference thing and or a generational 128 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 1: thing I'm wondering, reported being sexually harassed via lude, texts, 129 00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: g chats, and emails, which I want to be like, 130 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 1: are you stupid, because that is so easy to be like, hello, hr, 131 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,079 Speaker 1: look at these emails and texts. So are you encouraging 132 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: sexual harassers to cover their track? Don't get smarter about it? Noah, 133 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 1: if you leaving the paper trail is a good thing, Well, 134 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,600 Speaker 1: that's true, but I mean, come on, that's ridiculous. That's 135 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: but I think that that speaks to the element of 136 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people would say, oh, I didn't know 137 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: what I was doing with sexual harassment, or I would 138 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: never have thought I'm not someone who sexually harasses people. 139 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: I would never do that, not realizing that oh no, 140 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: even just a hint of you know, whatever it was 141 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,840 Speaker 1: you said, could be construed as harassment. Yeah, and that 142 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: privileged element of assuming that you're sexual come on, or 143 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 1: the porn link that you just gea ch at. It 144 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,160 Speaker 1: would be welcome and in the same way that street 145 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 1: harassers say, oh, but it's just a compliment. I bet 146 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 1: in in some of these people's minds, like, hey, it's 147 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,600 Speaker 1: just a compliment. Man, she looks so good. Why would 148 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: I not want to compliment her bibs? Well, I think, yeah, 149 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: there's actually this study along these lines, and Kristen correct 150 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: me if I'm wrong. I feel like it was in 151 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: the eighties or nineties, but men and women were presented 152 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,080 Speaker 1: with this scenario and they were told to judge at 153 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:20,559 Speaker 1: what points sexual harassment entered the scenario. So basically, the 154 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,599 Speaker 1: hypothetical scenario was that a woman was supposed to go 155 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: to lunch with the man to present a presentation of 156 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 1: her work, and at lunch he says, you know what, 157 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: screw that, Let's just talk about your personal life, and 158 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: he asks her all of these invasive questions. Uh. He 159 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:38,800 Speaker 1: goes on to ask her to lunch a few more times, 160 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 1: and then dinner, and then drinks, and at drinks he 161 00:10:42,679 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: fondles her. And so they asked the men and the 162 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: women at what point did sexual harassment enter into this? 163 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 1: Almost to a person, the women said basically when he said, no, thanks, 164 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 1: I don't want to hear your presentation, Let's talk about 165 00:10:56,000 --> 00:11:00,320 Speaker 1: your personal life, and by far the majority any of 166 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: the men said oh when he fondled her. There seems 167 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: to be a massive disconnect, and I'm hoping that that 168 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,920 Speaker 1: is narrowing. But as we see through lewd text, g 169 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 1: chats and emails being such a thing, clearly not everyone 170 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: has picked up on the need to be a little 171 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,200 Speaker 1: more sensitive and aware. Well, that reminds you, Caroline of 172 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:26,199 Speaker 1: a job interview that I had, and thankfully it was 173 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,319 Speaker 1: a phone interview um where we went through all the questions, 174 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: had developed a nice rapport, and then at the end 175 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: of the conversation, this guy asks me what I'm doing 176 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: for the weekend, like what are you doing on Saturday? 177 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: And it caught me completely off guard because my Saturday 178 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 1: plans would have absolutely nothing to do with my qualifications 179 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: for this job. And afterward I told myself maybe it 180 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: was just to get a sense of whether I'd fit 181 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:01,800 Speaker 1: into the company culture. But as soon as I mentioned that, 182 00:12:01,920 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: and this was true, that my soon to be in 183 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: laws were coming over for brunch. The interview quickly ended 184 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,880 Speaker 1: and I never got a call back. And I don't 185 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 1: know that that was Again, that could have been just 186 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: a question, you know, friendly seeing what kind of what 187 00:12:21,440 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 1: my interests were outside of the office. But you know 188 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 1: that squeaky feeling that you get in your stomach when 189 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: you sense that someone is thinking of you as more 190 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: than just a potential good employee, that's so awful. Yeah, 191 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:41,719 Speaker 1: my my stomach got squeaky. So I mean, and and 192 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: that's that's the factor too. It's that line where you 193 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 1: you feel that distinct shift from being a human person 194 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: with a brain to being a sexual object who might 195 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:57,960 Speaker 1: also you know, what happened to to be decent in 196 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: the workplace. Yeah, I mean, there isn't visible sort of line. 197 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:05,520 Speaker 1: That's very hazy. I can an invisible thing also be hazy, 198 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to say in this case, it can. In 199 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,280 Speaker 1: that Cosmos survey, six of women said that they had 200 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: not been sexually harassed, but those same women said they 201 00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 1: had experienced sexually explicit or sexist remarks. So while there 202 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 1: might be some misunderstanding on the guy's part of like, no, 203 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:25,959 Speaker 1: I didn't mean for that to be harassing or crude. 204 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 1: It seems like on the women's side too, there's a 205 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,439 Speaker 1: little bit of a misunderstanding of like no, no, no, 206 00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:36,080 Speaker 1: when he says something like sexist or derogatory or sexually explicit, 207 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: like that, that's sexual harassment. Yeah, and I wonder too, 208 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: because you know, the stats in this Cosmos survey, which 209 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: probably probably not the most scientific survey in the world, 210 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:51,840 Speaker 1: but nonetheless telling. I wonder since it was so commonly 211 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: reported by the women who were taking this survey, who 212 00:13:54,440 --> 00:14:00,319 Speaker 1: were younger than the numbers that ABC News are it on, 213 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: which was of women, I wonder if that points to 214 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: sort of the target demographic for sexual harassment. I mean, 215 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: in that Cosmos survey, it did find that a bulk 216 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: of the women who reported it were between or essentially 217 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: like in their twenties. I don't have the exact ages, 218 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: and it might also speak to our generational awareness of 219 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: what is and isn't okay. But if we look at 220 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:32,840 Speaker 1: the specific industries where it tends to happen the most, 221 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 1: it really echoes some of our past podcast so women 222 00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: working in food service, hospitality, retail, stem fields, arts and entertainment, 223 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: and legal fields. That was a curveball to me, reported 224 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: the most sexual harassment I mean in food service that 225 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: has been corroborated by other research as well. Yeah, I 226 00:14:57,320 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: guess I was surprised. The one that surprised me was 227 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: not legal fields, but with arts and entertainment, because these 228 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: are either male dominated fields like stem or legal or 229 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: things like food service and retail where you are sort 230 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 1: of open to abuse from customers, not to mention managers. UM. Yeah, 231 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 1: I was just trying to figure out what it would 232 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: be an arts and entertainment. Yeah. I mean, I think 233 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: that there's the client aspect as well. UM. I mean, 234 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 1: and if you are thinking about like traditional arts, you 235 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: have to deal with moneyed buyers um. And people critiquing 236 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: your work. I mean your your work is for sale. Yeah. 237 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 1: I guess actress is going on auditions maybe sure, but 238 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: it happens. Um. But they found in this survey of 239 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: the reported harassers were male coworkers and ten percent were 240 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: female co workers. UM and Pso COSMO has certainly changed 241 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: its tune from founder Helen Gurley Brown's advice in our 242 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four bestseller Sex in the Office, in which 243 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 1: she wrote, and I must quote a married man usually 244 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: likes attractive approving females around whom he may or may 245 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: not think of as sex objects. You'll never get me 246 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: to say this is wrong, m but horrifying. Yeah, oh oh, 247 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: Helen g this okay. So like I now begrudgingly acknowledge 248 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: that Cosmo does add to the feminist discourse online because 249 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: I hated it for so long. I grew up occasionally 250 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 1: getting a Cosmo or buying a Cosmo and it was 251 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: all horrifying. No magazine ever made me feel worse about 252 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: myself than Cosmopolitan magazine. It's all about sex, and it's 253 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: all like stupid sex tips, and it's all about pleasing 254 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: your man finding his moan zone. And I'm like, oh 255 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: my god, get over yourself, Like what about women, Like 256 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: can we have something that isn't like about like you 257 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: need the sexy bod to be successful. So honestly, it's 258 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: only about in the past year that I've like come 259 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 1: to terms with Cosmo being a little more legit in 260 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: contributing articles too feminist conversations. I'll go on the record 261 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: and say, fully legit. They had brought on a new editor, 262 00:17:22,320 --> 00:17:25,840 Speaker 1: like whole new guidelines, people like Jill Philipovic right for them. Now, 263 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,120 Speaker 1: I mean it's a it's a good source. I will yeah, 264 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 1: but it wasn't for the longest time. And this whole 265 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: little anecdote here with Helen Gurley Brown, I'm like, yeah, 266 00:17:35,680 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: but how nice to see that magazines can evolve toward 267 00:17:40,359 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: feminism in a positive kind. I mean, we've seen that 268 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: with Marie Claire. I feel like and and maybe L 269 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 1: to everyone, definitely l especially online. And oh how I 270 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: wish that today's Cosmo was the Cosmo that I read 271 00:17:55,040 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: when I was in high school. Yikes. Um, But back 272 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: to sexual harassment. It's so so so common, especially in 273 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: food service, and this really echoes the episode that we 274 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: did on waitressing. And but this goes though, for men 275 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,159 Speaker 1: and women both and especially researchers found when they're in 276 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: jobs that aren't paid the minimum wage. When you make 277 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: the like what is it like to fourteen an hour 278 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: and then the rest are your tips, sexual harassment runs rife. 279 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 1: ANTI magazine reported on a Restaurant Opportunities Center United survey 280 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: of six eight restaurant employees across the US, which found 281 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,879 Speaker 1: sixty six percent of women and more than fifty percent 282 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: of men reported sexual harassment by managers and even more 283 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,640 Speaker 1: from customers. Just another reason that the United States is 284 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: tipping system sucks because you have to just kind of 285 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: take it these You're depending on these customers, these abusive customers, 286 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: for your livelihood, to to supplement your terrible, terrible hourly 287 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: wage that you earn from your restaurant. And so, I mean, 288 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: it's bad enough being sexually harassed by your manager. I mean, 289 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: like that's awful, but then to have to basically try 290 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: to earn money from people who are actively harassing you 291 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 1: sounds traumatic. And it's also crystallizes to Caroline the power 292 00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: dynamic at the core of all of this, because as 293 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: the history we're about to talk about really shows, the 294 00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,679 Speaker 1: wider the disparity between, you know, the power of the 295 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: harasser and the person being harassed, like the likelier and 296 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: the more pervasive it tends to be. And a lot 297 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:51,120 Speaker 1: of this information is coming from the fantastic resource Directions 298 00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 1: and Sexual Harassment Law. Reva B. Siegel wrote the introduction, 299 00:19:55,359 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: and it is dense with information about the history of 300 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: sexual harassment, the legal history specifically of sexual harassment, and 301 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: in this country, if we look back to slavery, I mean, 302 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: what better way to illustrate deeply ingrained power dynamics with 303 00:20:14,080 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: a huge distance between the harass er and the harassed. 304 00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 1: Yeah so um. And Harriett Jacobs's eighteen sixty one autobiography 305 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,879 Speaker 1: Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl. She wrote 306 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:30,880 Speaker 1: how her slave owners quote began to whisper foul wards 307 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: in her ear when she was fifteen. And of course 308 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:39,960 Speaker 1: Annabellum rape laws did not protect enslaved women whatsoever. But 309 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: even after the Emancipation Proclamation, there assumed hyper sexuality. Women 310 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 1: of colors assumed hyper sexuality often robbed them of justice. 311 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: And we go into more detail in this on our 312 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: two parter on the history of rape and rape culture, 313 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:00,240 Speaker 1: which I highly recommend you also listened to. But yeah, 314 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: I mean it's so grim when it comes to slavery 315 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: because like you said, I mean, there the women had 316 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,240 Speaker 1: no autonomy whatsoever, and the and the more economic power 317 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: that other person has over the victim, the likelier this 318 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 1: is to happen. Yeah. And although the context and extent 319 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: of the abuse is certainly different, outside the shackles of slavery, 320 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: women employed as domestic workers and manufacturing jobs and performing 321 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: secretarial work also encountered it regularly. Basically, if you left 322 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: the home, you were fair game. You were considered like 323 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: almost a woman of ill repute for mixing with men 324 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 1: in the workplace. So as we get to the eighteen fifties, 325 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: as the women's rights movement starts gathering steam, it's organizers 326 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:57,439 Speaker 1: begin drawing these links between women's limited job prospects and 327 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 1: reduced wages that made them economically dependent on men, whether 328 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:07,719 Speaker 1: in the workplace or at home, and that dependency, they argued, 329 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 1: normalized coercion. And this is something that Riva B. Seagull 330 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,200 Speaker 1: and Katherine McKinnon also infinite emphasized in directions in sexual 331 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: harassment Law. How it is power, but it's also about 332 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: money and the socio economics tied up in all of this. Yeah, 333 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: there's one particular story that went a long way towards 334 00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 1: recognizing those dynamics. So in eighteen sixty eight, you have 335 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:38,080 Speaker 1: this woman, Hester Vaughan. She's a domestic servant. She gets 336 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: impregnated by her employer, she's fired as a result, and 337 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: she's later found destitute, her baby having died, and she 338 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: ends up being convicted of infanticide. Well, she's facing a 339 00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: death penalty conviction, and a couple of suffragists that you 340 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: may have heard of. Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth, Katie stand 341 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 1: and a few others catch wind of this and they're 342 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,399 Speaker 1: basically like, this is in sane, Are you serious? Like 343 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: all of this stuff was done to her. She's a 344 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: victim of circumstance in like the worst way. They basically 345 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: managed to gather enough attention for Vaughan's case that they 346 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: convinced the Pennsylvania governor to pardon her. Yeah, and they 347 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 1: used this as a platform to campaign for suffrage um 348 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 1: women on juries, all of these issues that were tied 349 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,400 Speaker 1: up with hesser Van's case. Um. But also one name 350 00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: you've probably heard of is Little Women author Louisa May Alcott. 351 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: In eighteen seventy four, she wrote a newspaper essay about 352 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 1: her sexual harassment experience from a female employer's brother. This 353 00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: woman had hired her to essentially be her lady's companion 354 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: for a month or so, and her brother got real 355 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: smarmie and kept inviting her into his study, which in 356 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy four, that was a direct come on, and 357 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: she was existed, and you know what he did, He 358 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: was like, Okay, you're not going to come into my study, 359 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: both literally and figuratively, Luisa may Alcott and I'm gonna 360 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: have you doing hard labor out in the yard. Yeah. 361 00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: He he tried to. And this is such a like 362 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: a familiar refrain. He tried to bargain with her to 363 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 1: lessen her chores. Your life could be so much easier 364 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: if you just come into my study. Uh. And then 365 00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:28,960 Speaker 1: when she wouldn't, Yeah, he added to her burden even more. 366 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 1: But I love her story about basically telling him to 367 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: back the f off. She like waved something at him. 368 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:37,199 Speaker 1: I don't know if it was like a poker from 369 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: the fireplace or a feather duster or what, but that 370 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 1: woman was not taking any guff well. And we even 371 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: see around the turn of the century. Um in this 372 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 1: book Women Wage Workers, authored by Helen Campbell, even back 373 00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:57,400 Speaker 1: then they're calling attention to these problems of sexual harassment 374 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: for like you said, Caroline, women making money outside the home. 375 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: Upton Sinclair in the Jungle also talks about it in 376 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: the context of domestic workers women in manufacturing and factory jobs, 377 00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:14,840 Speaker 1: even going so far as to compare it to slavery conditions, 378 00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: particularly if they were poor and foreign. And in her 379 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: seven Bok Campbell described the sexual extortion of garment and 380 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: factory workers, and went on to say that household service 381 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: has become synonymous with the worst degradation that comes to women, 382 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 1: So not so great to leave the house, I guess. Ps. 383 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,000 Speaker 1: Sexual harassment is nothing new, I mean. And that also 384 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,679 Speaker 1: that quote right there goes so much to show how 385 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: class could only make you more vulnerable to it. And 386 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,080 Speaker 1: in a call back to our International Women's Day episode 387 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,280 Speaker 1: which focused a lot on women factory workers, which included 388 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,880 Speaker 1: a lot of immigrant women going on strike. These low 389 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,679 Speaker 1: wage workers in the nineteenth century were often looked down 390 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:10,879 Speaker 1: on as immoral for working alongside men and in the 391 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: wording of the day, giving in to sexual advances. So 392 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: it was the onus was on these women to maintain 393 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: their purity. Talk about some victim blaming one oh one, yeah, like, oh, 394 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:25,640 Speaker 1: you've made the mistake to enter the workplace, like this 395 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: is just natural and and how could we ever fix it? 396 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 1: Which is a legal refrain that we will see come 397 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: back in the seventies and eighties, Like I it's it 398 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: boggles the mind. I can barely speak because it boggles 399 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: the mind. Well, And in our International Women's State episode, 400 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 1: we talked about how uh snobby gentlemen of the day 401 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: look down on factory women for being immoral, and I 402 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: was puzzled by that at the time. But oh, this 403 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: now makes sense because even working alongside men was sketchy 404 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: to them because of the risk of sexual harassment, which 405 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: of course would have been the women's fault for being 406 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: there in the first place. There was the men putting 407 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,119 Speaker 1: the women at risk, and then the men blaming the 408 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: women for being at risk. I know, Caroline, you preach 409 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: into the congre choir. I just want to throw my 410 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: headphones off and go run away. So Alice Kessler Harris, 411 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,120 Speaker 1: who was a labor women's labor historian over at half Stra, 412 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: told The New York Times how nobody talked in terms 413 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: of sexual harassment back then, of course, because the term 414 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 1: had not been invented. She said, quote, the issue was 415 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 1: whether it was immoral for young girls to be working 416 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:46,639 Speaker 1: alongside men and subjecting themselves to the natural licentiousness of 417 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,640 Speaker 1: the workplace. And so the argument a lot of times, 418 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,280 Speaker 1: Kesler Harris says, was that, you know what the solution is, 419 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: to take women of the workplace. They're safer at home. Yeah, 420 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 1: I mean. In nineteen fourteen, there was a report from 421 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 1: a Commission on Industrial Relations that cited a glass factory 422 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: that was so written with sexual harassment that all of 423 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: the younger female employees were replaced with older women. So, 424 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: rather rather than nipping the sexual harassment in the bud, 425 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: they're just like, fine, we'll take away all the spring chickens. Yeah, 426 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: rather than firing the men and still bring in those 427 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: older women, Nope, just fire fire the young women who 428 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: are too tempting hashtag distractingly sexy. Um. That same nineteen 429 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 1: fourteen report also noted how female department store clerks, which 430 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 1: this is, you know, a new industry that's bubbling up 431 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: at the time, those clerks endured sexual harassment from and 432 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,719 Speaker 1: this is a quote from that report, buyers, managers and 433 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: floor walkers who take advantage of girls working under them. 434 00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: We know of cases of girls who have got to 435 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: submit to buyers if they want to hold their positions. 436 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: Again and again and again. It's power, it's money, it's socioeconomics. Yeah, well, 437 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 1: so how do you how were you supposed to if 438 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: you weren't Louise may Alcott with the weaponized feather duster 439 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: waving it at that guy with a study, like, what 440 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: were you supposed to do. I mean, you had very 441 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 1: little recourse at the time because of course, I mean 442 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 1: we didn't even have a language to describe it. There 443 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: were no laws really to protect you, unless I mean 444 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: there were rape laws. But as we'll talk about in 445 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: a second, like the the bar was so high, and 446 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: even if you simply accused someone of sexually harassing you, 447 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: you were putting your reputation and your marriage prospects at 448 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,360 Speaker 1: risk because that would mean that you're already a tainted woman. 449 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: Get out of here. And if you are a woman 450 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,520 Speaker 1: of color, an immigrant, or even just like a white 451 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: domestic employee, well too bad, so sad, because you've already 452 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 1: been hyper sexualized and stereotyped as promiscuous anyway, So you know, 453 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,080 Speaker 1: just just hope that you're a rich white woman then 454 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: you might have, you know, a little bit of illegal 455 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: leg to stand on. And speaking of which, the rape 456 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: laws at the time required that women proved they exerted 457 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: quote utmost resistance to the harassment or assault, otherwise you 458 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,720 Speaker 1: must have been consenting. Yeah, And I mean that goes 459 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: back to even earlier quote unquote rape laws, where you literally, 460 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: as the woman, were expected to run through the town screaming, 461 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: and if nobody heard you screaming, they were like, oh, 462 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 1: well you're probably lying. Yeah, she's just making it up. 463 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: And so author Reva B. Siegal, whom we've started now 464 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: a few times, underscores how those most invested in strengthening 465 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: those anti rape laws were often the most disenfranchised, whose 466 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 1: only effective option so often was to begin organizing, just 467 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: as they had done to protest unfair wages and working conditions. 468 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: They had to band together because I mean, the law 469 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: wasn't going to protect them exactly. And because this dynamic 470 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: obviously continues through the seventies, eighties, and nineties, maybe you 471 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:27,200 Speaker 1: could argue today it kind of takes people with privilege 472 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 1: seeding some of that privilege so that other people can 473 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: be safe at work. It's very easy from a privileged position, 474 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 1: whatever that position is, to just be like, oh, this 475 00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: isn't really that big of a deal. And this was 476 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,920 Speaker 1: especially true back then. Yeah, so what do you what 477 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: do you mean though, by seating privilege? What form did 478 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: that take? Well, essentially seating the privilege to a not 479 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: see it or recognize it and be give up your 480 00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: actual harassing behavior. Oh so you're saying the men in 481 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: the office. Yeah, okay, okay, So we've already established that 482 00:32:04,280 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 1: sexual harassment is more severe in areas where women are 483 00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 1: either new or and or they're in a male dominated field. 484 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: So by the time world where one ends, women had 485 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: started really becoming commonplace in the office, and their clerical 486 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:24,440 Speaker 1: jobs increased one hundred and forty percent during the nineteen tents. 487 00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: And so as a result, you have all of these newspapers, magazines, 488 00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:31,560 Speaker 1: and employment guides being packed with advice for young women 489 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: on how a proper office girl should behave and basically 490 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 1: just taking for granted and like, yeah, your your boss 491 00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: is going to make a pass at you. Yeah. And 492 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,720 Speaker 1: and this info is coming from the book Sex in 493 00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 1: the Office, A History of Gender, Power and Desire by 494 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: Julie Verbitsky, which I highly recommend you're checking out. Verbitski 495 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,480 Speaker 1: writes about how office guides for women in the nineteen 496 00:32:56,560 --> 00:33:01,080 Speaker 1: thirties and forties, which were extremely popular, typically encouraged women 497 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:05,040 Speaker 1: to be pleasing to the eye because men like to 498 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 1: be surrounded by pretty women. Uh, but don't be overtly sexy, 499 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 1: you know, be pretty but not too pretty. And while 500 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: boss says would certainly make passes at the prettiest ones 501 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: because I mean, of course they're just just dudes. It 502 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,760 Speaker 1: was all innocent masculine admiration and kind of an office 503 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: tradition of sorts. Yeah. And and like Kristen said, they 504 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: were popular. You had one called Manners and Business by 505 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: Elizabeth greg mcgibbons that was reprinted fourteen times between nineteen 506 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: thirty six and nineteen forty six. And it also acknowledged that, hey, 507 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: sex in the office happens. Yeah. And if we go 508 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: back to Cosmopolitan founder Helen Gurley Brown and her questionable 509 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,120 Speaker 1: good advice, she writes in her best sellers about when 510 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: she was a secretary Games of Scuttle and Scuttle is 511 00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: when bosses would pick a secretary to chase around until 512 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,959 Speaker 1: they caught her and removed her underwear. I have so 513 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:08,920 Speaker 1: many words and then none at all. Yeah, I mean 514 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 1: a lot of this. Reading this just reminded me of 515 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: episodes of mad Men and also watching The Wolf of 516 00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:20,360 Speaker 1: Wall Street. Yeah, I just don't I don't understand. Um. 517 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: He also had Dale Carnegie's executive secretary Marylyn Burke, who 518 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: read a guide in nineteen fifty nine warning against curvacious 519 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: women in low necklines that have a tendency to distract. 520 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: Sultry pouts, swinging hips, and lingering caresses of well manicured 521 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: fingers were off limits because they capitalized on male weakness. 522 00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: Those poor men being preyed upon by women. Well, we 523 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: hear about this, We hear this echoed, I think most 524 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: prominently these days in school dress codes. It sounds a 525 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,600 Speaker 1: lot like that, where girls with larger busts and larger 526 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: butts are often the most panelized. It is because they 527 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: have the most quote, distracting bodies, um, and all of 528 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: it being framed in the term of in terms of 529 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: men just not being able to help themselves. Boys can't 530 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,359 Speaker 1: help but look and they'll be distracted. Ulk smash, Yes, 531 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: ulk smash, ulk smash. Well, we're about to get to 532 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,640 Speaker 1: some hulk smashing, because Caroline, the second wave is coming. 533 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: And first we have the civil rights movement, and as 534 00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: a result, in nineteen four the Civil Rights Act is passed. 535 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:36,799 Speaker 1: Entitled seven of the Civil Rights Act outlaws employment discrimination 536 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: on the basis of sex and a lot of other factors. 537 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 1: But that on the basis of sex is a crucially 538 00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: important phrase. But here's the thing. At that time, sexual 539 00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: harassment was predominantly viewed as a personal matter that just 540 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,839 Speaker 1: happened to take place in the office. It's like, oh, 541 00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: I mean, like, this guy can have a crush on 542 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,400 Speaker 1: you anywhere, he can be you know, inapprop brilliently touching 543 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: you anywhere, but he just happens to see you every 544 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: day at the office. So of course that's where it 545 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: will take place. It's just a personal issue. That's such crap. 546 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 1: And that was like entrenched in our legal approaches to 547 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: it absolutely. I mean, because keep in mind too, at 548 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:23,760 Speaker 1: this time it was only men making the laws. Jerks, okay. 549 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: So riding the crest of the second wave, we get 550 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:32,279 Speaker 1: Katherine McKennon and she was part of Lynn Farley's consciousness 551 00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 1: raising groups that we mentioned earlier in the nineties seventies 552 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 1: in the heyday of the women's movement, and the stories 553 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,840 Speaker 1: that she heard there at Cornell from secretaries about sexual 554 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 1: harassment were i opening. And what especially got McKinnon's wheels 555 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: attorning was this woman, Carmita Wood, who had quit her 556 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: job in a Cornell lab after her supervisor physically and 557 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,040 Speaker 1: verbally harassed her to the point she began developing stress 558 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 1: related physical ailments. And this is really common to hear 559 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: from trauma victims in general, and sexual harassment victims specifically, 560 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: that they develop physical and emotional symptoms like stomach pains, 561 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: like anxiety, attacks like depression. So Cornell had refused Wood's 562 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 1: job transfer request and workers camp because they said that 563 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,800 Speaker 1: her reasons for leaving again we're personal. And so McKinnon 564 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: realizes that these situations are happening because their women lightbulb. 565 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:41,280 Speaker 1: Sexual harassment is sex discrimination. So in nine nine McKinnon, 566 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: who at this time is still a student at Yale 567 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: Law School, uses that but five year old term sexual 568 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:54,680 Speaker 1: harassment to write the groundbreaking sexual harassment of working women 569 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: a case of sex discrimination. And this broke the whole 570 00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: thing wide open legally speaking. And in that McKinnon wrote, quote, 571 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,040 Speaker 1: sexual harassment perpetuates the interlocked structure by which women have 572 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: been kept sexually in thrall to men and at the 573 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: bottom of the labor market. Two forces of American society 574 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: converge men's control over women's sexuality and capital's control over 575 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 1: employees work lives. There you have it again, power and money, 576 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 1: power and money. Yeah. And as Riva Siegel wrote talking 577 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 1: about this, she says that this arrangement this power and 578 00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: money arrangement has been institutionalized through marriage, prostitution, and as 579 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: we're seeing now sexual harassment. And so, along with her 580 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 1: colleague Glenn Farley, McKennon pieces together how sexual harassment asserts 581 00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:52,080 Speaker 1: a woman's sex role over her function as a worker. 582 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: And again, it's really just about the communication of power. This, 583 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,399 Speaker 1: she said, is dominance eroticized. And it took about ten 584 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:02,720 Speaker 1: years for mckennon's legal argument to essentially make its way 585 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:06,399 Speaker 1: through various cases up to the Supreme Court. But first 586 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty we have the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission 587 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: issuing its first sexual harassment guidelines, which we earlier defined. 588 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 1: And then is the big year. This is when the 589 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: Supreme Court hands down it's landmark decision based on McKinnon's 590 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,120 Speaker 1: legal theory in the case of merit Or Bank versus Vincent, 591 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,880 Speaker 1: in which a former bank employee alleged harassment by a 592 00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 1: branch manager um and the Supreme Court determined sexual harassment 593 00:39:41,840 --> 00:39:45,560 Speaker 1: to in fact be a form of sex discrimination, thus 594 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: violating the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act. And Caroline, 595 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be perfectly honest with you, I did not 596 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:58,920 Speaker 1: before digging into this legal history. Fully understand that sexual 597 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,359 Speaker 1: harassment is illegal because it is a civil rights violation. Yeah, 598 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: I hadn't realized that either. And even though it took 599 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 1: basically until with Anita Hill for sexual harassment to really 600 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: come to the forefront, uh, socially speaking, I mean, think 601 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,440 Speaker 1: about how far we came in just a really short 602 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:20,080 Speaker 1: time from the idea that sexual harassment and like the 603 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: sexualizing of women in the workplace, it's just natural, it's inevitable, 604 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:27,399 Speaker 1: and the law couldn't be expected to eradicate it. It's 605 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: because we didn't have the language to identify it. I 606 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: mean that again goes goes to that whole point of 607 00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:38,600 Speaker 1: how putting language of something, identifying something, calling it out 608 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:44,400 Speaker 1: can initiate change, and change is still happening here and 609 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: abroad around the same time that we're battling it here 610 00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:53,399 Speaker 1: in the United States. In four Australia's Sex Discrimination Act 611 00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: made sexual harassment unlawful in the workplace. In two thousand two, 612 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:01,920 Speaker 1: so a bit of a leap, the European Union recognized 613 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:05,120 Speaker 1: it as a form of discrimination. And then every period 614 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: between and you had a whole slew of countries, including 615 00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 1: Hong Kong, India, Israel, Japan, Singapore, South Korea, and Vietnam 616 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,720 Speaker 1: passing legislation that really clamped down on sexual harassment at work. 617 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,520 Speaker 1: But in the case of Vietnam, they didn't clearly define 618 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:28,160 Speaker 1: what sexual harassment was, nor our employers actually obligated to 619 00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,440 Speaker 1: take any preventive measures. Yeah, and we should also note 620 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: that with the that list of countries, many of them 621 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: already had anti sexual harassment laws in place, but this 622 00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,279 Speaker 1: was really like going in and tightening those laws even more. 623 00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: And that's coming from the Society for Human Resource Management 624 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: and Caroline. This whole episode is the preview to our 625 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 1: next podcast, which is going to be all about Anita 626 00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:01,080 Speaker 1: Hill and the circumstances surrounding that and talk again about 627 00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,239 Speaker 1: power dynamics, gender race. A lot tied up with it 628 00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:10,080 Speaker 1: and the ripple effect that it would have because between 629 00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: her hearing before the Senate and sexual harassment claims filed 630 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 1: with the E e O C more than doubled. And 631 00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 1: that has again a lot to do with women saying, 632 00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that's happened to me, and this is 633 00:42:27,040 --> 00:42:33,480 Speaker 1: what it's called, and it's a civil rights violation. So listeners, 634 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: now we turned to you, we want to know whether 635 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:39,680 Speaker 1: this is something you've experienced, how you handled it, and 636 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: do you have any insights on eradicating sexual harassment from 637 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:50,400 Speaker 1: the workplace, because this conversation definitely wasn't solutions oriented, because 638 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,840 Speaker 1: we've only recently really figured out how much of a 639 00:42:54,880 --> 00:43:00,800 Speaker 1: problem it is. We've only just begun. Sorry your sexual 640 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:06,399 Speaker 1: harassment anthem. Yeah, well, listeners, we hope to hear from you. 641 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at House stuffwork dot com is our email address. 642 00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,600 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcasts or 643 00:43:12,640 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and we've got a couple of messages 644 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 1: to share with you right now. I have a letter 645 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: here from Kate Uh. She says, I just started listening 646 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: to your podcast and I'm on a serious stuff I've 647 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,360 Speaker 1: never told you crunch fest. I've enjoyed more than I 648 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,279 Speaker 1: can list, but I wanted to express how much I 649 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,520 Speaker 1: appreciated your episode on disability and de sexualization. My father 650 00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,280 Speaker 1: is a quadriplegic, and since I was a child, people 651 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,400 Speaker 1: have asked me whether I was adopted or how my 652 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: parents conceived me. My two siblings and I were conceived 653 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,480 Speaker 1: the old fashioned way, and it astounds me that even 654 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: mere acquaintances feel it's okay to ask me how my 655 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,840 Speaker 1: parents have sex, and often comment on how remarkable of 656 00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,439 Speaker 1: a woman my mother must be to have married someone 657 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: in a wheelchair, have being a father in a chair 658 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:03,640 Speaker 1: and not only made me aware of our world's inaccessibility 659 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,160 Speaker 1: and attitude towards disability, but also of the miseducation of 660 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:10,080 Speaker 1: the realities and needs of the disabled, even those are 661 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: on a spectrum for which to human beings able bodied 662 00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: or not, have the same needs. As with many disabilities 663 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 1: and illnesses, the social stigma and preconceptions attached to them 664 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,840 Speaker 1: are often the greatest hurdles people have to face. I 665 00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:25,200 Speaker 1: hope as a society we can continue to broaden the 666 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 1: conversation on disabled realities, needs and rights so that someday 667 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,800 Speaker 1: there will be access for everyone to enjoy their sex 668 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,160 Speaker 1: life in the same way much of the able bodied 669 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 1: community has for centuries freely and privately. Let it be 670 00:44:38,680 --> 00:44:42,120 Speaker 1: noted my mother is indeed a remarkable woman and would 671 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: still be regardless of her choice of husband. My father 672 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,040 Speaker 1: is a legend as well, by the way, heck, maybe 673 00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,719 Speaker 1: that's why they married each other. Well, thank you, Kate, 674 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: oh I gotta let her hear from Jacqueline also about 675 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:59,319 Speaker 1: our sexuality and disabilities podcasts, and she writes, I'm so 676 00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,399 Speaker 1: happy that you guys brought up the lack of sex 677 00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:04,040 Speaker 1: said that people with disabilities get in school. I'm a 678 00:45:04,080 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: twenty five year old living in Canada and the bone 679 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:09,360 Speaker 1: disorder I was born with has left me standing only 680 00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: four four And while I consider myself able body thanks 681 00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,120 Speaker 1: to my amazing parents, my high school did not. I 682 00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:18,680 Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to take jim in grade nine where you 683 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:21,880 Speaker 1: get the sex said that isn't about getting your period. 684 00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: This left me really clueless about sex, and still I 685 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: started university. Luckily, we live in the Internet age and 686 00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,120 Speaker 1: I was able to flesh out my knowledge from feminist sources. 687 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,200 Speaker 1: I consider myself pretty sex positive now, but it's a 688 00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 1: product of my own research. I appreciate your addressing this issue. 689 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,839 Speaker 1: If people with even mild disabilities don't know about sex themselves, 690 00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,560 Speaker 1: how are we supposed to educate the able bodied people 691 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:47,680 Speaker 1: that we want to have sex with. Well, thank you 692 00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,399 Speaker 1: Jacqueline for your letter, and thanks to everybody else who's 693 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,919 Speaker 1: written into us. Mom Stuff at house stuffwork dot com 694 00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: is our email address and filling all of our social 695 00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and 696 00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: podcasts with our sources so you can learn more about 697 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: the legal history of sexual harassment. Head on over to 698 00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 1: stuff mom Never Told You dot com for more on 699 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is it how stuff 700 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:22,080 Speaker 1: Works dot com.