WEBVTT - Will Anyone Be Able to Afford Covid Drugs? 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:10.200 Welcome to Prognosis. I'm Laura Carlson. It's day eighty four 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:15.120 since coronavirus was declared a global pandemic. Our main story. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:21.000 Dozens of pharmaceutical companies are pouring resources into developing new 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.120 drugs that can help blunt the effects of the pandemic, 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.280 but the outbreak has halted the momentum behind a bill 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:32.400 that would slow the rising price of such drugs. Still, 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.920 Senator Chuck Grassley told Bloomberg he believes drug price reform 0:00:38.120 --> 0:00:49.800 isn't dead yet. But first, here's what happened today. Protests 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.720 against police violence continued in every state in the US 0:00:53.760 --> 0:00:58.120 and some cities around the world. Some protesters defied US 0:00:58.120 --> 0:01:05.319 city curfews, but demonstrate raiders were overwhelmingly peaceful. Still, President 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:09.880 Donald Trump on Wednesday urged police to get tough and 0:01:09.920 --> 0:01:12.520 appeared to double down on his support for the use 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:19.319 of greater force to quell protests. The pandemic isn't finished 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:23.199 with the US labor market. Economists believe a second wave 0:01:23.240 --> 0:01:26.360 of job cuts is around the corner, and this one 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:32.279 will hit white collar workers particularly hard. Close to six 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.360 million jobs are potentially on the line, according to Bloomberg Economics, 0:01:36.959 --> 0:01:41.360 that includes higher paid supervisors in sectors where frontline workers 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:47.040 were hit first, such as restaurants in hotels. Industries connected 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.280 to those service sectors will also see a knock on effect, 0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:56.920 like professional services, finance, and real estate. The extent and 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:00.760 details of the spillover job cuts will start to reveal 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:06.160 themselves Friday, when the government releases its May employment report. 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:12.600 The unemployment rate probably soared to nineteen point five, the 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:18.440 highest since the Great Depression. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:23.440 declared victory over the coronavirus pandemic, touting the lowest daily 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:28.600 death toll and hospitalization rate since it began, but in Florida, 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:33.880 cases jumped the most in nearly two weeks. Florida began 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:43.680 a phased reopening on May four, and now our main story. 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.280 The drug industry has been pouring resources into researching and 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:54.320 developing treatments and vaccines for COVID nineteen that has helped 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:59.400 quiet a long running debate over rising prescription costs. The 0:02:59.400 --> 0:03:03.760 pharmaceutical industry hopes that efforts to reform drug pricing, which 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:09.600 had bipartisan support before the pandemic, are now dead, But 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.960 Senate Finance Committee Chairman Chuck Grassley insists that the long 0:03:14.040 --> 0:03:17.200 delayed drug price bill he is co sponsoring will get 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:22.120 a vote this year. The bill would limit drug price increases. 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.280 Grasslely worries that if the bill doesn't pass, drugmakers will 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:32.239 charge whatever they want for COVID nineteen related drugs and 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:35.880 the Court and Riley Griffin spoke to Senator Grassley about 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:40.360 what coronavirus means for his efforts to stem the rising 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:50.560 price of drugs. So, Riley and Emma, can you tell 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:52.720 us a bit about this drug price bill that the 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:57.880 senators vonagon It is a co authored bill by Senator 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:03.240 Chuck Grassley and Democratic Senator Ron Wyden. One key component 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:07.720 of this bill is what some call an inflation cap, 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:12.240 others call an inflation rebate, but it would ultimately penalize 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:17.640 drugmakers that raise prices past the rate of inflation. That 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.320 is one of the sticking points of this bill. It's 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:23.719 one that has a little bit more disagreement within the committee, 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.840 but ultimately what makes it so novel um, but there's 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:31.279 been a slow burn in getting this across the finish line. 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:35.040 We haven't yet seen this bill introduced by Mitch McConnell 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:38.600 to the to the broader Senate. But M and I 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:42.599 spoke with Senator Chuck Grassley about his bill, which many 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:46.159 have considered dead. To be quite frank, it's missed a 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:50.040 couple of key deadlines. He suggests that this bill is 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.880 not dead. In fact, it has more potentially momentum than 0:04:53.920 --> 0:04:58.000 ever as we look forward and consider affordability questions related 0:04:58.040 --> 0:05:02.080 to the coronavirus. So, the price of drugs has been 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:06.640 a hot button topic in America for years. Why are 0:05:06.680 --> 0:05:11.720 we hearing about this bill now? In some corners of 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:15.560 this debate, you know, the perspective is that drug pricing 0:05:15.680 --> 0:05:18.480 is is kind of this debate is over right. COVID 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:21.800 nineteen has sort of, you know, many people have said, 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:24.280 sucked the oxygen out of the room. I mean, we're 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:28.480 basically plowing as many as resources as possible into trying 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.800 to alleviate the health as well as economic impact of 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:36.320 this pandemic. In many ways, the Republicans and Democrats have 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.400 have been talking about drug pricing for years, haven't reached 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:42.560 a consensus, even though Americans have, you know, said for 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:45.120 a long time they're worried about the price of their medication. 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:47.840 They're worried about whether they can afford to keep taking 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.360 the medication. You know, we've been talking about drug pricing 0:05:50.400 --> 0:05:53.840 for so long nothing has happened. Can we really do 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:57.080 anything now that there's a pandemic on um But you know, 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:00.560 when Riley and I spoke with Chuck Grassley, the senators 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.960 sort of said, this is the right time to address it. 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:08.680 Right the need for drugs affordability is still central to 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:13.560 our conversation. It also highlights the need to act for 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:18.040 the next pandemic right now. There's nothing to stop bad 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:25.120 actors in the pharmaceutical industry from hiking prices astronomically when 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:30.240 the next pandemic would hit. So there's no reason whatsoever 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.680 for delay of our legislation given that we are so 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:39.240 reliant on the pharmaceutical industry to make these vaccines and 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:42.320 therapeutics that will hopefully get us out of this public 0:06:42.320 --> 0:06:45.159 health crisis. And I thought that was a really interesting point. 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:47.040 But I think you know a lot of folks who 0:06:47.040 --> 0:06:50.080 have been watching this would would probably disagree with him 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:54.440 about the feasibility of getting legislation passed at this moment. 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:57.720 So I am wondering on that point. With the new 0:06:57.760 --> 0:07:02.560 relevance of vaccine therapeutics, as you mentioned, for COVID nineteen. 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.400 Are there elements in that bill that will specifically address 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:11.760 these What Senator Chuck Grassley had said was fundamentally, those 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:16.400 provisions do impact any pharmaceutical, whether it's a vaccine, whether 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:20.600 it's a therapeutic. It's not necessarily limited to COVID nineteen treatments, 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:26.920 but it touches diabetes, it touches cancer therapies, it touches immunology, drugs, 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:30.320 um and very much so when we have this conversation, 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:34.040 for the most part, um it's about branded drugs, right, 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.920 not your off patent generics which account for nine and 0:07:36.960 --> 0:07:42.360 ten medicines in in your cabinets, but newer drugs coming 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:48.559 to market with pricier tags. Regardless, healthcare is the number 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:51.400 one issues for voters. We know that going into the 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:57.120 presidential election, healthcare has taken the number one slot. It 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.520 is interesting to consider whether or not the drug pricing 0:08:01.560 --> 0:08:06.080 debate itself will shift in the wake of the coronavirus, 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.400 whether or not you'll see lawmakers take a more sympathetic 0:08:10.320 --> 0:08:14.680 view in their relationships with the pharmaceutical industry, because remember 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:19.280 that relationship between Washington and Fharma had been quite antagonistic 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.720 up until this point, I think it's important to point 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:25.280 out also, you know, when we're talking about the Grassley 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:29.200 Widen Bill, for instance, that we're the focus here is 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:33.559 is really on restricting how much drug companies can increase prices. Right. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:36.480 So there's this sort of almost annual or bi annual 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:39.800 tradition of of drug companies raising the prices of their 0:08:39.880 --> 0:08:43.120 drugs in January and then again in the summer. And 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:47.520 this is what Grassley is really talking about in this bill. 0:08:47.920 --> 0:08:49.960 He says that you know, we asked him, are you 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:52.920 worried about what will happen with the pricing of COVID 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.880 nineteen products? And he said, without the Grassley Widen bill 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:00.320 is wild country. Whatever they want to price, said that 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:04.280 they're going to because look at what happened January of 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:09.480 this year, these fabulous increases in drugs. It's a wild West. 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.000 Another words, he said, drug companies could charge whatever they 0:09:13.040 --> 0:09:15.800 want to. But the reality is that this bill is 0:09:15.840 --> 0:09:19.280 really focused on sort of what happens after drug companies 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:21.720 price their product. Um. I would also sort of note 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.079 that in some ways the conversation about drug pricing and 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:28.120 COVID nineteen is is almost academic and largely theoretical at 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:30.440 this point, you know, we really haven't gotten to a 0:09:30.480 --> 0:09:33.760 point where we have you know, enough products that have 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.640 been you know, approved for COVID nineteen that are are 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:38.600 thought to be really helpful that that where we're going 0:09:38.679 --> 0:09:41.760 to have this kind of UM conversation really aired out. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.480 Is there a concern at all about the election potentially 0:09:46.520 --> 0:09:51.200 delaying the passing of this bill. Absolutely. I think that 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:54.360 the expectation of the committee was first to have this 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.440 done earlier in the year. UM. When I spoke with 0:09:57.520 --> 0:10:01.840 folks in Washington close to this bill last fall, for example, 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.280 the hard stop I was given was May, and we've 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:08.160 passed that point. Right. The new date that's being floated 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.680 is September. I think the closest the closer you get 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:16.880 to the election cycle, the more this becomes a politically 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:22.040 charged package. Right. There really has to be the perfect 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.920 storm to get this bill across the finish line before 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:30.680 the election, and I would say more people than not 0:10:31.480 --> 0:10:35.679 are somewhat skeptical that that storm will come into play 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:40.360 in this really tight timeline. I would also kind of 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:44.040 note that, Um, what we heard from Chuck Grassley, which 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.480 I thought was quite interesting, was he said, you know, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:52.080 pharma should want what we're doing here, because ultimately, you know, 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:56.160 if Democrats come into power and d c um come September, 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.160 you know they're going to be proposing really aggressive of 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:04.240 changes to drug pricing. And I would think that Big 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.559 Farmer would think in terms of keeping a Republican president 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:16.040 and a Republican majority in Congress pretty important because if 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:22.319 we have a Democrat president and we have a Democratic Congress, 0:11:22.400 --> 0:11:27.200 which means that the government is going to be very 0:11:27.240 --> 0:11:33.199 deeply involved in setting drug prices. We've seen both Republicans 0:11:33.200 --> 0:11:36.800 and Democrats talk about drug pricing a lot, especially in 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:39.199 recent years, but their visions of sort of how it 0:11:39.240 --> 0:11:42.800 should change are are very different. And finally, I did 0:11:43.000 --> 0:11:44.920 want to just circle back to a point both of 0:11:44.960 --> 0:11:46.520 you raised, but I was hoping that you might be 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.720 able to dig deeper on it about overall the pharmaceutical 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.360 industry's reaction to this proposed bill. What what what is 0:11:54.440 --> 0:11:59.400 their reaction? I think the pharmaceutical industry, the lobby companies, 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.440 would say a lot of the rising drug costs aren't 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:06.160 actually attributable to those who manufacture the drugs, but to 0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.160 those that are outside of their control, and they'd like 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:13.600 to see some changes made there, but this question, for example, 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.840 of the inflation cap, that's not something that industry supports, 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:21.560 there adamantly against it. And so if a delay is 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:25.679 here to seeing the Senate Finance Committee bill pass as is, 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:29.800 that won't necessarily come as bad news too many as 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:34.120 the CEO of BIO the excuse me, the incoming CEO 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:38.079 of BIO another trade organization said to US, any drug 0:12:38.080 --> 0:12:41.360 pricing reform that existed prior to this pandemic is quote 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:46.400 obsolete um. And that's a that's a very interesting and 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:52.120 compelling perspective because it suggests that we have to start 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:56.400 from scratch um. And I think that lawmakers like Senator 0:12:56.400 --> 0:13:00.240 Grassley would be fairly opposed to the notion. And with 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.959 COVID nineteen, you know, being such a huge kind of 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:08.520 factor is the fact that the industry is really benefiting 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:11.520 in terms of public perception. So people have been up 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:13.840 in arms about the prices of drugs for years in 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.240 the US, and suddenly, you know, we're turning to the 0:13:16.240 --> 0:13:19.200 pharmaceutical industry and saying, can you please come up with 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.800 a vaccine and some several vaccines and drugs so that 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:25.040 we can kind of get out of this whole situation. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:27.040 I think you know you're going to see that be 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.920 a really powerful tool shaping discourse, you know, in the 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:36.480 coming months. That was m The Court and Riley Griffin. 0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:39.920 And that's our show today. For coverage of the outbreak 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:42.920 from one D and twenty bureaus around the world, visit 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:47.959 Bloomberg dot com slash Coronavirus and if you like the show, 0:13:48.440 --> 0:13:51.320 please leave us a review and a rating on Apple 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.800 Podcasts or Spotify. It's the best way to help more 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:59.720 listeners find our global reporting. The Prognosis Daily edition is 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:04.800 produced by Tobah Foreheads, Jordan Gaspure, Magnus Hendrickson and me 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.640 Laura Carlson. Today's main story was reported by Emma Court 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:15.440 and Riley Griffin. Original music by Leo Sidran. Our editors 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:20.560 are Francesca Levi and Rick Shine. Francesco Levi is Bloomberg's 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.200 head of podcasts. Thanks for listening.