1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:07,400 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: Will Never Told You Production. I heart are you, And 3 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,759 Speaker 1: today we are bringing back an episode that Kristen and 4 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 1: Caroline did about women coaching women's basketball and why are 5 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: there so many women coaches? Now this is a bit 6 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,319 Speaker 1: of an older episode and things have changed, but we 7 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:37,840 Speaker 1: talked about this in our recent Olympic episode. We did 8 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: that it's still the gender difference is still there. I 9 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: noticed it when I was watching the Olympics. I have 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: to say a lot of the stuff that I mentioned 11 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: in my recent Monday mini about the Olympics, they were 12 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: women coaches for the US anyway, But it is still 13 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: it's still an issue. I think we should maybe come 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: back and do like a a full blown revisit. 15 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: I would love to get some updated. 16 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 3: Right because we have people going into the NFL. People 17 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 3: are going into like different actually like male dominated sports 18 00:01:11,640 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 3: or male only sports NFL yeah and all that, and 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 3: there are women coaches coming through finally, and referees. I 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 3: think we need to talk about it. 21 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: Yes, I told you, I've been wanting to talk about 22 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 1: referees for a while. Mm hmm. Well, in the meantime, 23 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:34,479 Speaker 1: please enjoy this classic episode. 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 3: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never told You from HowStuffWorks dot Com. 25 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,280 Speaker 4: Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, 26 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 4: and we are coming at you in the midst of 27 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 4: March madness, even though it's April. 28 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, basketball madness. 29 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 30 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 4: NCAA Final Four is about to happen here in the 31 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 4: men's tournament at least is happening in Atlanta, right. 32 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,840 Speaker 5: It's supposed to bring something like seventy million dollars worth 33 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 5: of revenue to the city, and thank you. 34 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 2: And two hundred million people. 35 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:10,639 Speaker 5: Who Lamarta is gonna be a little cramped, yeah, and 36 00:02:10,720 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 5: the streets. 37 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 4: Ah, And for this podcast, we're gonna gripe about traffic 38 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 4: in Atlanta, just kidding. We're gonna talk about basketball, but 39 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:23,680 Speaker 4: we're not talking about the players. We're talking about the 40 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 4: coaches because in honor of the NCAA basketball tournament, we 41 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:34,400 Speaker 4: thought it would be worthwhile looking at women's basketball coaches, 42 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 4: which might sound like a narrow topic, but there is 43 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 4: a lot in here to discuss. 44 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, there just aren't as many as perhaps 45 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 5: there should be. And something we'll get into is that. Okay, 46 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 5: so you've got the men's men's basketball, it's all coached 47 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 5: by men. Yeah, and you've got the women's basketball and 48 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,399 Speaker 5: it's coached by some women, but a lot of men too. 49 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:57,239 Speaker 2: But a lot of men. 50 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 4: Yeah. We're gonna get into how title actually corresponded with 51 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 4: fewer women coaching female basketball teams and other factors at play. 52 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 2: Huh pun in all of this, But first, let's talk about. 53 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 4: The winningest basketball coach in the NCAA, Pat Summitt. 54 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,400 Speaker 5: Yeah. Pat Summitt was actually a basketball player at University 55 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 5: of Tennessee Martin when Title nine was introduced, so she 56 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 5: was kind of in the thick of it. She's now 57 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,640 Speaker 5: the head coach emeritus of Tennessee women's basketball team. Thirty 58 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 5: eight years as a head coach, and she stepped down 59 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 5: because she made the very sad announcement that she has Alzheimer's. 60 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, and she's coming out with a new memoir. I 61 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 4: believe the title is Summit Up. And her story is 62 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 4: pretty incredible. Like you said, Caroline, she was coming up 63 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 4: when Title nine was introduced, and before that. She talks 64 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 4: about how the women's athletic budget at UT Martin when 65 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 4: she got there was about five hundred dollars to be 66 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 4: distributed among volleyball, basketball, and tennis, and after the passage 67 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 4: of Title nine in nineteen seventy two, those budgets increased, 68 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 4: but it wasn't exactly smooth sailing, as we'll talk about 69 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 4: in more detail, but for a little more about Pat Summit. 70 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 4: She ended up playing in the first women's Olympic team 71 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 4: to play basketball, and a little bit more though about 72 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 4: Pat's Summit. Some highlights from her career were not only 73 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 4: did she, you know, play with U Team Martin, but 74 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,239 Speaker 4: she also played in the nineteen seventy six Summer Olympic 75 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 4: Games in Montreal because for the first time they had 76 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 4: a women's basketball team, and Summit's team brought home the silver. 77 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 4: And then she went on to coach the team in 78 00:04:50,240 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 4: the nineteen eighty four Olympics in Los Angeles. 79 00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:56,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, she has a really interesting perspective as far as 80 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 5: you know, having been a coach all this time, but 81 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 5: also coming up during the whole Title nine passage and everything. 82 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 5: In her new book, she says that three events in 83 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,840 Speaker 5: nineteen seventy two changed everything, and that includes that a 84 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 5: group of dedicated women administrators formed the Association of Intercollegiate 85 00:05:12,960 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 5: Athletics for Women because she says the NCAA didn't yet 86 00:05:16,960 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 5: care enough about females to bother with us. She also 87 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 5: says that it was very important the announcement that women's 88 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 5: basketball would be an Olympics sport for the first time 89 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 5: at those nineteen seventy six Summer Olympics, and of course 90 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 5: the passing of Title nine. 91 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, and she talks about how those developments made winning 92 00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 4: available to women. For instance, with that establishment, Caroline that 93 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 4: you mentioned of the Association of Intercollegiate Athletics for Women. 94 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 2: The title is a bit of a mouthful. 95 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 4: They organized the first championship for women's basketball teams, which 96 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 4: was a really important stepping stone to legitimize the sport 97 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 4: for women. It also made competition more socially acceptable with 98 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,679 Speaker 4: Title nine, and it allowed women to play a full 99 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,680 Speaker 4: court basketball game. 100 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 5: Well, thank god. I mean, I'm glad that they reached 101 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 5: the point where they're like, good, it won't bounce your 102 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,520 Speaker 5: uterus around too much if you run up and down 103 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 5: a full court. 104 00:06:14,080 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 4: Right, Because this reminds me of our episode on women 105 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:20,720 Speaker 4: running marathon, and even when Summit was going to those 106 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 4: Summer Olympics in nineteen seventy six in Montreal, it was 107 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 4: still a crazy idea for. 108 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 2: A woman to run that long of a distance. 109 00:06:29,800 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 4: So this was the kind of mindset that was going 110 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 4: on when Title nine was introduced. And Pat Summit is 111 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:37,960 Speaker 4: going to come up a few more times in this 112 00:06:38,000 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 4: podcast because since she is the winningest coach in NC 113 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 4: Double A and the highest paid female coach in the 114 00:06:47,520 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 4: NC DOUBLEA, she's sort of held, as you know, the 115 00:06:52,360 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 4: pillar of female coaches. I'd say, not just in basketball, 116 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 4: but pretty much in all collegiate sports because she made 117 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 4: such an incredible name. 118 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:03,359 Speaker 2: For herself for sure. 119 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 6: But first, Caroline, speaking of women being allowed to play 120 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 6: full court basketball and bouncing our uteruses around, let's take 121 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 6: a brief historical look at basketball for women. 122 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,920 Speaker 5: Yeah. Well, before it was for women, it was only 123 00:07:22,960 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 5: for men, obviously, as is everything. Sorry that I didn't 124 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 5: mean that to sound so better. 125 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 2: Except for corsets. Yeah, those have always just been for women. 126 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 5: Yeah, high heels though, No, that's true for men. Yeah, anyway, 127 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 5: I started it. So, Yeah, Rosemary Scain wrote a very 128 00:07:39,320 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 5: comprehensive book titled Very Simply Women College Basketball Coaches. 129 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 2: I bet you can guess what that's about. 130 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 131 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 5: But so in eighteen ninety one, basketball was designed for 132 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 5: male athletes who needed a winter sport because God forbid 133 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 5: they not play sports for a minute. So the first 134 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 5: public game was in March eighteen ninety two, but it 135 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 5: was not that long after that women started playing. Three 136 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 5: months after that first public men's game. In March eighteen 137 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,240 Speaker 5: ninety two, Senda Berenson, Smith College's director of physical training, 138 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 5: introduced the game to women, and the first women's game 139 00:08:10,720 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 5: was played March twenty second, eighteen ninety three at Smith. 140 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 5: And in case you're wondering at the score, Kristen Sophomore's five, 141 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 5: freshman four. 142 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:19,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, but that. 143 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 4: Game was just between Smith's students. The first intercollegiate women's 144 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 4: game happened between Berkeley and Stanford. 145 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:32,440 Speaker 2: Berkeley alumni out there. You won? Oh no, you lost? 146 00:08:34,400 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 5: Christin really wanted you to. 147 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 2: Win, but trivia alert. 148 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 4: Stanford's Martha Clark made the very first basket in women's 149 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 4: intercollegiate history, and she did so while wearing. 150 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 2: A woolen uniform. 151 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 4: That covered everything except for the face, neck, and hands. 152 00:08:51,679 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 4: As were you know the uniforms that all the women 153 00:08:55,120 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 4: would be wearing. 154 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 5: I noticed you did not include feet in that list. 155 00:08:58,280 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 5: Were they footy? Uniform. 156 00:08:59,520 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 4: The uniform, I think they were allowed to expose their 157 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,000 Speaker 4: feet in order to put them into shoes. 158 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 5: Well, you know, it is scandalous to have women running 159 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 5: and playing sports, even in full body footy uniforms. The 160 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 5: day of that game, only two men were allowed to watch, 161 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 5: and they were a pell physical education director and an instructor. 162 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 5: Women guarded the windows of the auditorium with sticks to 163 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 5: keep men from sneaking a peak and scain rights. Even 164 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 5: letting women watch was apparently considered dangerous since basketball was 165 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 5: invented form men. Physicians who believed women were delicate said 166 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 5: women would become hysterical watching other women play basketball. 167 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: Oh my, oh my. Although I do sometimes become hysterical 168 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 2: watching sporting events. 169 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 5: But probably not for the reason that they think. 170 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:51,359 Speaker 2: This is true. 171 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 4: So it takes a little while, though, for them to 172 00:09:54,559 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 4: develop rules for women's basketball. In eighteen ninety four, the 173 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 4: first women's rules appeared, but they weren't widely circulated. Then. 174 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 4: In June eighteen ninety nine, Senda Bearnson, who was that 175 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 4: director of physical training at Smith College, worked with other 176 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 4: East Coast physical ed teachers to develop women's rules at 177 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 4: the Conference on Physical Training and so in October of 178 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 4: nineteen oh one, finally a good year. Yes, Spalding Sporting 179 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 4: Goods published her rules as the official rules for women's basketball. 180 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 2: But those rules. 181 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 4: Emphasize maintaining ladylike behavior of course, no snatching of the 182 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 4: ball for instance. But Benson did favor physical activity. She said, quote, 183 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,480 Speaker 4: it's all the more to develop health and endurance if 184 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 4: they desire to become candidates for equal wages. So a 185 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 4: little bit of feminism tossed in there as well. Basketball 186 00:10:49,520 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 4: playing basketball can help you earn equal wages with men. 187 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 2: It can close the gender gap. 188 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 4: Unfortunately, send to Bearnson, those predictions were not not really 189 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 4: uh come to fruition. 190 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, Clelia Duelle Mosher, I'm sorry if I'm really 191 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 5: sorry if I just butchered her name. She was a 192 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 5: physician background this time in the Victorian era, and she 193 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 5: agreed with Bearnson as far as like, let women have 194 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:16,719 Speaker 5: physical activity. So no, she had nothing to do with 195 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 5: actual basketball. But it was during this time that she 196 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 5: was of the same school of thought that women actually 197 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 5: needed to have some physical activity, and she wanted to 198 00:11:26,720 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 5: prove that women were not inferior to men and that 199 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 5: the frailties attributed to sex were really just the effects 200 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 5: of binding garments like those corsets, insufficient exercise and mental conditioning. 201 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 5: So get those women onto the court playing sports and 202 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 5: maybe one day will be equal. 203 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:55,920 Speaker 4: Yeah, Because I mean as much as we think about 204 00:11:56,000 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 4: how exercise is something that we today can sitter part of, 205 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 4: you know, a well balanced life where you're supposed to 206 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,959 Speaker 4: do exercise, what five days a week for sixty minutes 207 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 4: at a time, I'm pulling that out of the air. 208 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: You're supposed to do it a lot. 209 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 4: But when all of this was going on, it was 210 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 4: socially unacceptable for women to be moving around like that. 211 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 4: This was also the time when things like bicycles were 212 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 4: coming into vogue, and it was a big deal for 213 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:26,960 Speaker 4: women to ride bicycles because it rumors, yes, it would 214 00:12:27,000 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 4: be straddling things. 215 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 2: How would you do that. 216 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 4: You'd have to wear maybe something like a Bloomer invented 217 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 4: by Amelia Bloomer, who was an early feminist. You know, 218 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 4: things that we take for granted were revolutionary at the time, 219 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 4: like basketball. 220 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 2: But let's talk about a. 221 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 4: Few more of the more modern pioneers of women's basketball, 222 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,560 Speaker 4: such as Carol Eckman, who is considered the mother of 223 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 4: collegiate women's basketball national championships. She's best known for establishing 224 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 4: the first national invitational women's interco li legiate basketball tournament 225 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 4: in nineteen sixty nine. 226 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 5: Yeah, and then we have Teresa Shank Grantz, who is 227 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:10,920 Speaker 5: the former head coach of the women's basketball program at 228 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 5: the University of Illinois, Rutgers University, and Saint Joseph. She's 229 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 5: a member of the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame and 230 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 5: was the Olympic head coach in nineteen ninety two and 231 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 5: that year her team captured the bronze medal in Barcelona. 232 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:27,199 Speaker 4: And Billy Moore, for some more trivia, was the first 233 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 4: coach in women's basketball history to lead teams from two 234 00:13:30,800 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 4: different schools to national championships. In those schools were California 235 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 4: State Fullerton and UCLA. So we are moving into the 236 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 4: modern era, and like we said in nineteen seventy two, 237 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 4: Title nine happens. So with Title nine, schools that are 238 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 4: receiving this federal funding have to equally distribute it for 239 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 4: men's and women's athletics. But what we want to look 240 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 4: at is how Title nine impacted not so much the 241 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:09,280 Speaker 4: players and the women who like Pat Summitt benefited from 242 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 4: Title nine by having more resources to be able to 243 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 4: get out on the court or get out on the 244 00:14:13,840 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 4: field and play. But how again, for people like Pat Summitt, 245 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 4: once their time was up playing, whether or not coaching 246 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 4: would be more open to them as a lucrative occupation. 247 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 5: Right, Well, it definitely influenced how people saw women's sports, 248 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 5: and not just making it more socially acceptable, but also 249 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 5: making it, yeah, like you said, more lucrative because all 250 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 5: of a sudden, all this money's flowing in, and now 251 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:46,000 Speaker 5: maybe men who wouldn't have considered coaching women's teams are like, huh, 252 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 5: there's more in it for me now. 253 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 4: So yeah, speaking of men being interested in coaching women's teams, 254 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:55,400 Speaker 4: a curious thing happens when Title nine is passed. In 255 00:14:55,520 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 4: nineteen seventy two, women coached more than ninety percent of 256 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 4: women's teams, but in such a short amount of time, 257 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:08,960 Speaker 4: by nineteen seventy eight, that number had dropped to fifty 258 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 4: eight point two percent, and as of twenty ten, it 259 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,320 Speaker 4: was down to forty two point nine percent. So today 260 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 4: women coach fewer than half of women's college teams. 261 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, and since two thousand NCAA programs have added one thousand, 262 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 5: seven hundred and seventy four women's head coaching jobs. Men 263 00:15:29,960 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 5: have filled over twelve hundred of those openings. And you know, 264 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 5: only about three percent of men's teams are coached by women. 265 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,280 Speaker 5: And that's a whole other issue, like why aren't women 266 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:42,800 Speaker 5: coaching men's teams either? 267 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, and that percentage, the percentage of women coaching men's 268 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 4: teams has not changed at all since Title nine. The 269 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 4: only thing that has dropped is the percentage of women 270 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 4: coaching other women. And a lot of these statistics are 271 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 4: coming from early comprehensive Our to Call from ESPN magazine 272 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 4: written by Kate Fagan and Luke Cipher's on which they're 273 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 4: looking into this gender gap in women coaching, specifically women's teams, 274 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 4: because you would assume, oh, well, women's sports teams, you 275 00:16:15,320 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 4: can have a women's a female coach, But no, because, 276 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 4: like you said, Caroline, the increased money coming into women's 277 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: sports simply made it a more desirable option for men's 278 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 4: coaches who might not have been as qualified right as 279 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 4: potential women's coaches. 280 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 5: Well, so they looked into some of the reasons as 281 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 5: for like why there aren't as many women coaching teams, 282 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 5: and a lot of it has to do with, Okay, 283 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 5: there's a small pool of female candidates, there's a lack 284 00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 5: of second chances for female coaches. A lot of women 285 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 5: if they screw up, it's just kind of it's not 286 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 5: the same revolving door type of situation that men have, 287 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 5: like they can just go to a different team. A 288 00:16:57,680 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 5: lot of the times, if women are fired or lose 289 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 5: their coaching, that's it for them. A lack of female mentors, 290 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:07,359 Speaker 5: women just not applying for these jobs retaliation for Title 291 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,119 Speaker 5: nine complaints. But a lot of it also has to 292 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 5: do with sexism and homophobia. Yeah, there's this habit of 293 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:18,719 Speaker 5: women's basketball coaches hiring male assistants to be kind of 294 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 5: that quote unquote straight presence, because there's this whole issue 295 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:28,120 Speaker 5: in recruiting, of negative recruiting, of saying, you know, we're 296 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 5: a family friendly program, but over there, you know that 297 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 5: female coach at that school, you know, we're not so sure. 298 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, because the stereotype is is that female sports coaches 299 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 4: are lesbians, and so the type of homophobic recruiting that 300 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 4: goes on is referred to as family friendly recruitment, saying 301 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 4: things like to a new recruit like, oh, you know, 302 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 4: we're a very family oriented environment, with a wink and 303 00:17:56,720 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 4: a nudge to the parents saying, don't worry your daughter 304 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 4: won't be coached by a lesbian and possibly corrupted because 305 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 4: of this. And again, ESPN magazine covered this in February 306 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 4: twenty eleven in and among fifty five percent of the 307 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 4: college players that ESPN spoke to, they said that sexual 308 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,640 Speaker 4: orientation was quote an underlying topic of conversation with college 309 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 4: recruiters fifty five percent. So the homophobia is a pretty 310 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 4: rampant thing, and it's also a deterrent for would be 311 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 4: coaches who might be gay, who are like, you know what, 312 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 4: I don't want to have to live a closeted professional 313 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:47,160 Speaker 4: life and also be you know, slurred for my for 314 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 4: my lifestyle. 315 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, that same ESPN article talked about how these homophobic 316 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 5: negative recruiting policies are not policies but practices are pretty 317 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 5: unique to the women's game. You don't have a a 318 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 5: male recruit coming up from high school, coming up the 319 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 5: ranks and them talking about, you know, issues of family friendliness. 320 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,959 Speaker 5: But it's a general open secret as far as like 321 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:11,919 Speaker 5: the code words of family friendly. 322 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. 323 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 4: For instance, University of Tennessee and University of Connecticut don't 324 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 4: play each other anymore, allegedly due to Yukon's anti gay 325 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 4: recruitment against UT, claiming that, oh Pat. 326 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: Summit is a lesbian and so you don't want to 327 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 2: send your kids there. 328 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 4: Apparently it was a huge rivalry and the game used 329 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,439 Speaker 4: to be a giant draw until finally Summit and University 330 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 4: of Tennessee where like, you know, we're not even gonna 331 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:37,160 Speaker 4: play this game. 332 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 5: Well, so now that's less money coming into a women's game, right. 333 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 4: Which you know, women's sports can use as much money 334 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 4: as possible, which we'll get into a little bit later. 335 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 4: But in nineteen eighty two ESPN. But ESPN also talks 336 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 4: about how in nineteen eighty two there was this homophobia 337 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 4: mongering case of Pam Parsons, who resigned as coach of 338 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 4: South Carolina after allegations that she had a relationship with one. 339 00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: Of her basketball players. 340 00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 4: And they say that since that incident, that kind of 341 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,280 Speaker 4: anti gay recruitment has been almost a common. 342 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: Part of the process, which is unfortunate. 343 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, so common that Portland State's Sherry Mural is the 344 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 5: only out lesbian in Division one women's basketball. 345 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, and we should say too that it's not just 346 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 4: a thing of the whole family friendly thing. It's not 347 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 4: just a wink and a nudge to you know, homophobic sentiments. 348 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 4: But it's also a thing a wink in a nudge saying, oh, 349 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 4: this isn't a black program either, we are you know, 350 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 4: everything will be safe for your child. 351 00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,440 Speaker 2: There's a lot, there's a dirty underbelly to this that's 352 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 2: going on. 353 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 5: So yeah, we mentioned how, you know, with all with 354 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:52,040 Speaker 5: the influx of funds after the passage of Title nine, 355 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 5: coaching a women's basketball game became our a team, I'm sorry, 356 00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 5: became more attractive to male coaches. And this brings us 357 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 5: to what we call a glass wall phenomenon where men 358 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 5: can coach women while women are shut out of the 359 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 5: men's game. So you know, they can see the jobs 360 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 5: through the glass wall, but they can't get there. And 361 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 5: along these same lines, a really interesting survey by Nefert D. Walker, 362 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 5: who is a UMAs Amherst professor and former Division one 363 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 5: basketball player. She talked to male coaches about, you know, 364 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 5: would you hire a woman, would you want to work 365 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,480 Speaker 5: with a female coach? She found out that breaking that 366 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 5: institutional norm of hiring a woman as a coach really 367 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,240 Speaker 5: required an exceptional candidate, like women have a much higher 368 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,040 Speaker 5: burden of proof to use a legal term. Because they 369 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 5: all cited Pat Summit. Yeah, they were all like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, 370 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 5: you've got Pat Summit. I mean she's great. I'd totally 371 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 5: work with her. 372 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,880 Speaker 4: I was like, of course, you would hire the winningest 373 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:55,160 Speaker 4: coach in the NC double A. But there does seem 374 00:21:55,160 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 4: to be sometimes a disconnect maybe between what male athletic 375 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 4: directors or coaches think is going on. It's almost like 376 00:22:04,720 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 4: a blind sexism that might be happening to what female 377 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 4: coaches or would be coaches are feeling. There was a 378 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 4: study that took place in the nineteen eighties which found 379 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 4: that male athletic directors believed that female coaches left their 380 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 4: schools for just individual. 381 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 2: Reasons like going to spend more time with family or. 382 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:28,400 Speaker 4: What have you, whereas the female coaches who left had 383 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 4: actually jumped ship due to structural barriers like the glasswall phenomenon, 384 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 4: like the kind of homophobia that is still happening so 385 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 4: often today, and it is a problem because it doesn't 386 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 4: seem to be there, doesn't seem to be a ton 387 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:48,480 Speaker 4: of communication at least between these. 388 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,640 Speaker 2: You know, the men and women in athletics. 389 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 4: It's just kind of a thing where the female basketball 390 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:58,400 Speaker 4: players don't see many female coaches, they don't have many models, 391 00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 4: and they also know of women who are coaching. 392 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 2: In the rare positions where they are coaching or our. 393 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 4: Assistants, and they really don't like the jobs all that 394 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 4: much and so they choose other paths. 395 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 5: Right, Yeah, that's definitely a cycle. You see fewer coaches, 396 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 5: you have fewer role models, you might not choose that path, 397 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 5: and then you have no female coaches anymore. And it's 398 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 5: interesting that other Division one sports who which are traditionally 399 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 5: coached by women, are starting to see a decline also 400 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 5: in female coaches, like Division one softball female coaches are 401 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,920 Speaker 5: down from seventy four point eight percent in two thousand 402 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 5: to sixty percent and twenty ten, and Division one field 403 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:41,360 Speaker 5: hockey female coaches dropped from ninety eight percent in two 404 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 5: thousand to eighty seven percent and twenty ten. So maybe 405 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 5: not as significant as basketball as the dip the basketball seeing, 406 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 5: but still some of these coaches that ESPN talked to 407 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 5: were concerned, like, Hey, we don't want to you know, 408 00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 5: it's not that we hate men, we just don't want 409 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:56,360 Speaker 5: to lose coaching opportunities. 410 00:23:56,560 --> 00:23:59,919 Speaker 4: And Nicole Lavoy, who's the associate director of the Tuckerson 411 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 4: for Research on Girls and Women in Sports, has looked 412 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,640 Speaker 4: into this issue of, you know, the female coaching role 413 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 4: model a lot, and she talks about how youth sports 414 00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 4: are overwhelmingly coached by men. The whole thing is that 415 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 4: the dad's coach while the moms drive and put out 416 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 4: orange slices, and so they grow up to be recruits 417 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 4: that don't want a female coach. There was also a 418 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,679 Speaker 4: study that we found called Working with Male Athletes the 419 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 4: Experience of US Female head Coaches, and they talk to 420 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,520 Speaker 4: these female coaches about their experience with mentors and interestingly 421 00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,960 Speaker 4: found that one of the common themes was actually having 422 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,520 Speaker 4: a negative experience with youth. 423 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:41,639 Speaker 2: Sports with a female coach. 424 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 4: And they also cited though an NCAA survey from two 425 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 4: thousand and nine which found that a only ten percent 426 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 4: of female student athletes even care to pursue coaching, and 427 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 4: that of that the rest of those who did not 428 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 4: want to pursue it, fifty three percent cided knowing a 429 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 4: female coach he was not happy in her role, So 430 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 4: something is clearly going on here. 431 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:06,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 432 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 5: Well, Matthew Mallady in September twenty twelve asked why don't 433 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 5: we care that there aren't any female coaches coaching men? 434 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 2: For instance? 435 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 5: Like, why don't Why isn't it more of a big 436 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 5: deal that we have so few women out there? And 437 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 5: he wrote that there are zero female head or assistant 438 00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,959 Speaker 5: coaches for the one hundred and twenty two teams playing 439 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 5: in the NBA, MLB, NHL, and NFL. It's basically considered impossible. 440 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 5: He says that only three women have ever been assistant 441 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 5: coaches for men's college basketball teams. That's Bernadette Mattox, Jennifer Johnston, 442 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 5: and Stephanie Ready. And he said that this whole choosing 443 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 5: a coach from such a narrowpool thing is a totally 444 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 5: flawed system, the narrowpool being only men and only certain men. 445 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,119 Speaker 4: Yeah, it was illuminating to read the coverage of Nancy Lieberman, 446 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,640 Speaker 4: who was a superstar point guard for Old Dominion, who 447 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,680 Speaker 4: played professionally for both men's and women's teams before coaching 448 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:06,720 Speaker 4: the WNBA's Detroit Shock and then became head coach of 449 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 4: the Texas Legends, which was a men's team in the 450 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 4: NBA's Development League. 451 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 2: And it was this huge. 452 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 4: Deal because finally we have a female coach of a 453 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 4: professional team, even though it was a development league. But nevertheless, 454 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 4: all of these major media outlets are covering Nancy Lieberman 455 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,320 Speaker 4: and the only thing they want to talk about is 456 00:26:26,359 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 4: the fact that, oh, you're a woman coaching a man's 457 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,480 Speaker 4: team and talking to these athletes like, how is it being, 458 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 4: you know, being. 459 00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,480 Speaker 2: Coached by a woman? How can you handle that? 460 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 4: And most of the time the responses were just along 461 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 4: the lines of she's coach. 462 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 2: What I mean, she calls the plays and we run them. 463 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 2: What else do you want to know? 464 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,240 Speaker 5: Yeah, And there was one interview, you know what, I'm 465 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 5: not even sure if it was about Nancy Lieberman or 466 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 5: just another female coach, maybe even on the high school side, 467 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 5: but one of the players said, yeah, she's tiny, but 468 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 5: when she's mad, she's seven feet tall. Yeah, you know, like, 469 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 5: it's not an issue of she has a vagina. I'm 470 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,200 Speaker 5: not going to listen to her. It's she's the coach, 471 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 5: she's the authority figure. She's telling us what to do. 472 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 5: We're the players. 473 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 4: We listen to her, and I can't imagine that in 474 00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 4: locker room situations, there might be different dynamics of a 475 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:19,479 Speaker 4: woman sitting there and talking to a group of guys 476 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 4: versus a guy sitting there talking to a group of women. 477 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 4: But I wonder why that is why we are more 478 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 4: comfortable with men leading a group of women on the 479 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 4: field than we are with a woman leading a group 480 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 4: of men on. 481 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 2: The field or the court. I should say, as we're 482 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 2: speaking about basketball. 483 00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 5: Specifically, maybe it's just what we're used to seeing. Yeah, 484 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 5: I mean, what we are accustomed to seeing on the television. 485 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean it almost makes you wish that Pat 486 00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,640 Speaker 4: Summit had, you know, coach the UT men's team instead 487 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,520 Speaker 4: of the women's team. But then again, we don't want 488 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,399 Speaker 4: to take away good coaches from women's athletics. And I 489 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 4: think that is one of the main reasons why she 490 00:27:55,920 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 4: is so dedicated to that women's team, because she came 491 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 4: up through the ranks and knew firsthand what it was 492 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:09,280 Speaker 4: like to be marginalized as a female athlete. And speaking 493 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 4: of marginalization, because this is kind of a downer topic, 494 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 4: let's talk about wages. 495 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,719 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, salary, let's get into that now. 496 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,439 Speaker 4: The twenty eleven coaches compensation four schools and for the 497 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 4: previous five NCUBA women's basketball tournaments were pretty handsome. You know, 498 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,959 Speaker 4: Pat Summit makes a lot of money. 499 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: That year. 500 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 4: According to stats published by USA Today, she brought in 501 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 4: one point nine million dollars. 502 00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: I want to become a women's basketball coach. 503 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 5: If you like, just throw the ball at the net. 504 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 2: You got it. 505 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 5: Go ladies, hooray. 506 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 4: But just for contrast, Pat Summitt again, winning is coach. 507 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 4: But just for contrast, again, Pat Summit winning as coach 508 00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 4: in the nc doublea one point nine million dollars. Her 509 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 4: men's coach counterpart at the University of Tennessee brought in 510 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,560 Speaker 4: one point five million dollars a little bit less. But 511 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 4: if we go to the top earner for men's teams 512 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 4: over Louisville with Rick Patino, that dude brought home eight 513 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 4: point nine million dollars. 514 00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:22,479 Speaker 5: You can buy some fancy new shoes with that. 515 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 2: Basketball is almost as lucrative as podcasting. Carolina. 516 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, sum It's compensation package is definitely unusual 517 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 5: for women coaches. But from twenty three to twenty ten, 518 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 5: let's get some perspective, the average salary for the coach 519 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 5: of an NCAA Division one men's team in any sport 520 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 5: increased by sixty seven percent to two hundred and sixty 521 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 5: seven thousand ish. The average salary for the coach of 522 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 5: a women's team increased only by sixteen percent in that time, 523 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 5: to ninety eight thousand. 524 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 4: And I'm sure that you know people would say, hey, 525 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 4: why are you complaining about a ninety eight thousand dollars 526 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 4: average salary? But when you look at this breakdown of 527 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 4: these major pay gaps for male and female coaches, you 528 00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 4: know it's I think it speaks to something larger. 529 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,800 Speaker 5: Yeah, And then for Division one basketball in particular, the 530 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 5: median salary for coaches of a men's team in twenty 531 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 5: ten was nearly twice that of coaches for women's team, 532 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 5: and over the past four years, the median pay of 533 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 5: men's head coaches increased by forty percent compared with twenty 534 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,040 Speaker 5: eight percent for women's coaches. So yes, you could argue, okay, 535 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 5: if you're looking at all Division one sports into in 536 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 5: one package, men could be making more because they're coaching 537 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 5: more of the high profile sports like football, basketball. Women 538 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 5: might be teacher coaching more of the low profile sports. Okay, 539 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 5: So like softball or something. Yeah, but yeah, I mean 540 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 5: when you look at the actual basketball stats, women coaches 541 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 5: just are not getting the same increases in salary that 542 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:52,720 Speaker 5: men are. 543 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 4: And you would say, well, that's not right, because under 544 00:30:56,720 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 4: the Equal Pay Act of nineteen sixty three, the pay 545 00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 4: for male basketball coach versus a female basketball coach should 546 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 4: be comparable. But those differences emerge from third party money. 547 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 4: For instance, you know, Louisville's Rick Patino brings in a 548 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 4: bulk of that eight point nine million dollars, not so 549 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 4: much from coaching, but on supplements, talent fees, appearance fees, 550 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 4: endorsement agreements with apparel companies, summer camp, summer campus are 551 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 4: a huge way that coaches make cash, and those kinds 552 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 4: of opportunities are simply not there as much for female coaches. 553 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 5: And there was an interesting thing pointed out. The writer 554 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 5: talk to some lawyers who deal with contracts and said 555 00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 5: that athletic directors usually assume that women's players will be 556 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:56,880 Speaker 5: better students, so the academic clauses often are not included 557 00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 5: for these coaches, and those academic clauses being you know, 558 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 5: if your player, if your student athletes do really well 559 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 5: in school, you'll make a bit of a bonus. They're like, 560 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:06,959 Speaker 5: women are already smart. Yeah, so we're just gonna give 561 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:07,640 Speaker 5: you less money. 562 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. 563 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,920 Speaker 4: For the women's teams, the academic clause is not there, 564 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 4: But for the guys teams, it's like high five, all 565 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 4: your players made good grades. 566 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 2: Good for you. 567 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,360 Speaker 4: But there's an interesting way too that men's coaches for 568 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 4: women's teams can actually offer a cost savings to athletic 569 00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:34,080 Speaker 4: departments because the Equal Pay Act focuses on gender based discrimination. 570 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 4: So the New York Times offered the example of Kentucky's 571 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:41,720 Speaker 4: coach of the men's basketball team earning a one hundred 572 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:45,720 Speaker 4: thousand dollars bonus when his team made Round sixteen of 573 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 4: the NCAA Tournament, but the Wildcats women's coach received a 574 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,160 Speaker 4: forty thousand dollars bonus for doing the exact same thing. 575 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,880 Speaker 4: But because both coaches were dudes, no problem under the 576 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 4: Equal Pay Act. So maybe some schools are actively courting 577 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,160 Speaker 4: more male coaches because they just don't have to deal 578 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,400 Speaker 4: with all of the equal pay. 579 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 2: Kind of stuff. Yeah. 580 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 4: Yeah. The fact of the matter is about a third 581 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 4: of women's teams were profitable as of twenty ten, according 582 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,200 Speaker 4: to the Department of Education, and even then the annual 583 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 4: net profit was on average less than sixteen thousand dollars, 584 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 4: and those were usually among smaller schools. So sure, I mean, 585 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 4: from a financial standpoint, investing a lot in female coaches. 586 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 2: When you're not getting much out of those teams money. 587 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:44,840 Speaker 4: Wise, you might not be as motivated to really invest 588 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 4: a lot of a lot of resources in that. 589 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 5: Yeah, but there's a lot of talent out there, And 590 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,920 Speaker 5: I mean Bleacher Report is one of the sources that 591 00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 5: did recognize a lot of coaches of women's teams, not 592 00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 5: just female coaches of women's teams, but male coaches also. 593 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 5: I mean they there were a lot of names among 594 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 5: their fifty best college basketball coaches, and I won't list 595 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 5: all of them, but of course Pat Summits on there, 596 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:12,359 Speaker 5: Tara van Derveer from Stanford, Vivian Stringer from Rutgers, and 597 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,840 Speaker 5: then people like Andy Landers from Uga who coaches the 598 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 5: Lady Dogs. There is room, there is more room for 599 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 5: women to coach sports. But it's I mean, is it 600 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 5: when is it going to change, Kristin? 601 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 2: When are we going to be like, yes. 602 00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 5: We want more women role models. Is it just going 603 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 5: to become a cycle of terrible, terrible things where we 604 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 5: have few women's coaches, so girls grow up not having 605 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 5: women's coaches, and then they only want men for coaches. 606 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,240 Speaker 4: I mean, I feel like the problem is so multifaceted 607 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 4: and largely money driven. Yeah that I don't think that 608 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 4: not to be a cynic, I don't think that we 609 00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:56,399 Speaker 4: are going to see many major changes anytime soon at all, 610 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 4: because bottom line, I think the fact that only a 611 00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,120 Speaker 4: third of women's teams, and I think that is across 612 00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 4: sports are even profitable is an argument against investing more 613 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 4: resources in women's sports. And I think socially, you know, 614 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,520 Speaker 4: we don't value women's athletics as much as we value 615 00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 4: men's period. 616 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: Think about the NBA versus the w NBA, which. 617 00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 4: How many jokes have you heard about watching women play basketball? Yeah, 618 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:29,040 Speaker 4: insert punchline. And I think that when I would like, 619 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,280 Speaker 4: you know, listeners as we watch the NC DOUBLEA tournament 620 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 4: and stuff too, I don't know, consider all of the 621 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 4: attention that those men's teams get versus the women who 622 00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,440 Speaker 4: are in you know, their own NC DOUBLEA tournament. For instance, 623 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 4: today on the news, I heard that, you know, President 624 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,319 Speaker 4: Obama released his brackets for the NC Double a team. 625 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,239 Speaker 4: I think he's pulling for Indiana to win everything. 626 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 2: The president's talking about it. 627 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, no one's doing the same thing for 628 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 4: the women's teams, and if they were too, it would 629 00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 4: be it would probably be some kind of a joke, 630 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,640 Speaker 4: you know. But it's worth thinking about from from the 631 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:14,920 Speaker 4: coaching downward, and also those recruiting tactics, you know, the 632 00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:18,919 Speaker 4: negative assumptions, and also why would it be a bad 633 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 4: thing if your coach is a lesbian? 634 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: All that kind of stuff that's. 635 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 4: Wrapped up into something we might not think about all 636 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 4: that much. A because we don't see it, because we 637 00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 4: don't see women coaching all that much. And you know, 638 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 4: it's really only this one time of year when we're 639 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,879 Speaker 4: even paying all that much attention to basketball. Maybe that's 640 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:41,319 Speaker 4: just me not an avid basketballer. Yeah, I don't know, 641 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:42,040 Speaker 4: what do you think? 642 00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think we're gonna be waiting a while, Yeah, 643 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,040 Speaker 5: before we see a lot more women's coaches. And you know, 644 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 5: maybe we're gonna be waiting even longer than I think, 645 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 5: because obviously the numbers are on the down swing. 646 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, but it's definitely it's worth a conversation of you know, 647 00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 4: why why are we so not okay with seeing women coaching, 648 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 4: especially women coaching men's teams. 649 00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,000 Speaker 2: They're here and there, but they're such anominally well yeah. 650 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 5: I mean, there are plenty of men's coaches, male men's 651 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 5: coaches who maybe weren't good enough to play in college, 652 00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 5: but they're still excellent coaches because they have a head 653 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 5: for the game. Yeah, they've studied, you know, they love 654 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,680 Speaker 5: the game. They're great coaches. So you know, that's another argument, 655 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 5: like if a woman who didn't necessarily play at a 656 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 5: big school play basketball at a big school in college, 657 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,440 Speaker 5: she can still coach women or men if she studies, 658 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 5: is passionate about the game, you know. 659 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 4: I mean, But like you said, though, I mean that 660 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 4: all roots back to that finding out of ums Amherst 661 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:47,000 Speaker 4: nep for T. D. Walker's study that female coaches inherently 662 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 4: have that higher burden of proof to meet. 663 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we could obviously just go on and on and. 664 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,720 Speaker 5: So if we could just clone Pat Summit, that's the answer. 665 00:37:55,920 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 4: Yes, But in the meantime, basketball players out there, coaches, 666 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 4: anyone interested in sports, or if you just want to send. 667 00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 2: Us your bracket, let us know your I won't know 668 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:09,000 Speaker 2: what to do with it. 669 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:24,760 Speaker 4: Caroline, let's talk a little bit about snailmail and stamps 670 00:38:24,880 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 4: dot com. 671 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 5: So something I never knew, Kristen is that postage meter 672 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,560 Speaker 5: companies used to have the monopoly on printing postage. They 673 00:38:32,600 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 5: could charge you an arm and a leg to print 674 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,800 Speaker 5: postage from your own office. But those days are over. 675 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,160 Speaker 5: Now you can use stamps dot com. And with stamps 676 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 5: dot com you get all the benefits of that postage meter, 677 00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 5: but at a fraction of the cost. All you need 678 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 5: is your computer, your printer, and stamps dot Com to 679 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,919 Speaker 5: get official US postage. 680 00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 2: That's right. 681 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 4: At stamps dot com, you can get exact postage for 682 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,880 Speaker 4: any letter or package in any class of mail. And 683 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 4: better yet, right now, you can use the promo code 684 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,759 Speaker 4: stuff for a special offer. It is a no risk 685 00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,760 Speaker 4: trial that includes a one hundred and ten dollars bonus 686 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,600 Speaker 4: offer with a digital scale and up to fifty five 687 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 4: dollars of free postage for stuff. Mom never told you listeners, 688 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 4: so don't wait. Go to samps dot com before you 689 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,879 Speaker 4: do anything else. Click on the microphone at the top 690 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:30,239 Speaker 4: of the homepage and type in stuff. 691 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:37,200 Speaker 5: That's stamps dot com. Enter stuff. And speaking of letters, 692 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,800 Speaker 5: I have one here from Emily, She says, while listening 693 00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 5: to your podcast on animal testing, my opinion on animal 694 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:47,280 Speaker 5: testing really changed. I have an albino labrat as a pet. 695 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 5: Long story short, he needed a home before he was 696 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:51,840 Speaker 5: fed to a snake, and I realized I just couldn't 697 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,839 Speaker 5: deal with the thought of my sweet little friend being 698 00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:55,759 Speaker 5: in pain just for a product that might not even 699 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 5: hit the human market. Ever, I wish products would not 700 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,200 Speaker 5: contain dangerous enough ingredients that require animal testing to make 701 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:05,040 Speaker 5: sure the product is safe for human use. After so 702 00:40:05,120 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 5: many years of scientific research, we know what is and 703 00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 5: isn't toxic. While I understand there will always be animal 704 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 5: testing for medical purposes to save human lives, I hope 705 00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 5: animal testing will decrease in the cosmetic industry. These little 706 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 5: fellows have feelings too, and I've made a great friend 707 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 5: with a rat bread to be food slash a lab test. 708 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 5: So thank you, Emily. And I am just picturing your 709 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,280 Speaker 5: little friend wearing a teeny tiny mouse hat. 710 00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:34,680 Speaker 4: Well, I've got one here from a lease about that 711 00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 4: same episode on animal research, and she writes it got 712 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 4: me a little riled. I am a MD PhD student 713 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:47,720 Speaker 4: studying molecular genetics and I use mice in my research 714 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 4: for my PhD, and of course I listened to this 715 00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 4: most recent podcast while working in my lab. I know 716 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,760 Speaker 4: most of the podcast was about commercial testing on animals, 717 00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,960 Speaker 4: but you did seem to conflate animal research and animal 718 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 4: testing on occasion. I must confess I don't know what 719 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 4: the rules are for animal testing of commercial products, or 720 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 4: even if there are any rules, which is a scary thought. However, 721 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 4: animals used in medical school research are very tightly controlled. 722 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 4: Our university receives National Institutes of Health funds, so all 723 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 4: investigators at the school have to comply with NIH animal 724 00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,239 Speaker 4: testing guidelines. Everyone who works with lab animals has to 725 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 4: go through training, and there are very strict rules for 726 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 4: how you can operate on or kill an animal. For example, 727 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,640 Speaker 4: animals can only be euthanized using methods proven to cause 728 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 4: the animal minimal suffering, and if the surgery is done 729 00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:39,760 Speaker 4: on the animal, even the dosing of anesthetics is regulated. Also, 730 00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 4: when you apply to the NIH for funding, you have 731 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,000 Speaker 4: to estimate the number of animals that you use and 732 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 4: justify why you can't use fewer than that number. I 733 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 4: know this system isn't perfect and it took me a 734 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,439 Speaker 4: long time to come to terms with using animals in 735 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:56,480 Speaker 4: my research, but for now it's what we've got. So 736 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:59,439 Speaker 4: thanks alast Into everyone who has written into Mom's Stuff 737 00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,400 Speaker 4: at Discovery dot com. You can also find us on 738 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 4: Facebook there leave us a note if you'd like. You 739 00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:07,440 Speaker 4: can follow us on Twitter as well at moms Stuff 740 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:11,439 Speaker 4: Podcasts and on Tumblr at stuff Moomnever Told You dot 741 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:15,000 Speaker 4: tumblr dot com. And if you would like to learn 742 00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 4: more about basketball and other sports, you can find all 743 00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:24,799 Speaker 4: of the rules at houstuffworks dot com. 744 00:42:24,920 --> 00:42:27,479 Speaker 2: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit 745 00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 2: houstuffworks dot com.