1 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:09,239 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 2 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. Hey it's Saturday. That means we have 3 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,720 Speaker 1: a vault episode for you. This is going to be 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,040 Speaker 1: Washing of the Waters, Part one, the first in a 5 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,560 Speaker 1: multi part series. This one first published on three fourteen, 6 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. So without further ado, let's dive right in. 7 00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:36,200 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. 8 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:43,279 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 9 00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb. 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick. And today we wanted to kick 11 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 3: off a series examining something I recently became interested in 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: due to a specific historical anecdote, which we're going to 13 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 3: get to and maybe a later part in the series. 14 00:00:59,440 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 3: But but we're kicking off a series on a very 15 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 3: common belief across many human cultures throughout history, the belief 16 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 3: that you can heal your body or purge your sicknesses 17 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 3: by bathing or soaking in water, especially in certain places 18 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 3: containing special waters, but in many cases just by bathing 19 00:01:21,520 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 3: in waters or waters of a certain temperature. 20 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is I think a great topic because it 21 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:30,360 Speaker 1: relates to something that everyone has experience with, which is 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: soaking in water cold or hot, the feeling of feeling 23 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: restored by such practices. But then it covers a lot 24 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: of ground as well. We can go back in time, 25 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: we can look at different views, both scientific and superstitious, 26 00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: about what's exactly going on. And I think it's maybe 27 00:01:56,200 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: worthwhile to just start off with just a little general 28 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: information about bathing itself. And for this I turned to 29 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: a book that I've had on the shelf for a 30 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:09,280 Speaker 1: long time and I occasionally turned back to. I remember 31 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: I read it in full when it first came out, 32 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 1: but it's from the Oxford University Press, titled Clean, A 33 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: History of Personal Hygiene and Purity by Virginia Smith. I 34 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:20,120 Speaker 1: brought it up, at least in passing on the show 35 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,119 Speaker 1: many times because I think one of the interesting things 36 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:27,519 Speaker 1: about this book is that it looks just generally an 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 1: overview at the history in human culture of on one hand, 38 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: hygiene and on the other hand, purity, and how these 39 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: become intertwined, and how there's this understanding that cleaning yourself, 40 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: grooming yourself, applying cosmetics and whatnot, that it is a 41 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:48,080 Speaker 1: way of in many cases, it seems to be a 42 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 1: way of inspiring some sort of health and cleanliness and hygiene, 43 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: but also we have all these other ideas that get 44 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: built up with it as well. Well. 45 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, bathing has a lot of symbolic loading in human culture, 46 00:02:57,600 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 3: and I would imagine that kind of thing goes way 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,200 Speaker 3: way back, especially because even outside the context of bathing, 48 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 3: water just has a lot of symbolic loading in human culture. 49 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:10,359 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, Smith goes into it a quite a bit 50 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: in this book. So our prehistoric ancestors would have obviously 51 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 1: valued grooming, grooming being distinct somewhat from bathing for our 52 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: purposes here, but they would have groomed in the same 53 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: way that various other primate relatives do. And kind of 54 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: a footnote here, Yes, there are certainly primates that engage 55 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: in something a little more like bathing, setting and pools 56 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:35,120 Speaker 1: and all. We might have to come back to that 57 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: and look at those behaviors in particular. But when it 58 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: comes to water, the only real requirement Smith points out 59 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: for human beings is fresh drinking water. So we might 60 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: swim in water, we might fish in water. There are 61 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: certainly other things we might do in and around water, 62 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: but we don't need to actually have baths. We don't 63 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: need to immerse ourselves in water, but we found water. 64 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: We inevitably curious about water, and so nomadic Neolithic tribal 65 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: groups inevitably discovered all kinds of natural waters, including cold 66 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: water springs, rivers, and lakes, and they inevitably developed ideas 67 00:04:13,440 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 1: about their healing properties. And so these waters there would 68 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: be sources of fresh drinking water, maybe fishing waters in 69 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: some cases, but you could also engage in soothing and 70 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: hygienic washing or immersion in these waters. And those are 71 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: just the cold waters to consider, because on top of that, 72 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: then we have the naturally heated waters, hot springs and 73 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: so forth, which would have seemed even more miraculous as 74 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 1: they were discovered. I mean, can you imagine if you 75 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 1: had never encountered hot springs before, or even if you 76 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:44,039 Speaker 1: knew hot springs existed, but you could only have access 77 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: to hot water like this naturally occurring once a year 78 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: twice a year, depending on what your cycle of moving 79 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:57,479 Speaker 1: around might be. And hot springs occur around the world, 80 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: and Smith points out quote and hot springs seem to 81 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: have played a significant role in human settlement patterns quote. 82 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: For instance, many if not most, of the highly decorated 83 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: Upper Paleolithic sacred cave systems in the French Pyrenees and 84 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 1: the Cantabrian Mountains of northern Spain are within walking distance 85 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: of important hot spring sites, also later exploited by the Romans. 86 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 3: That is interesting, I've never read that before. So there 87 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 3: is a correlation between evidence of habitation by prehistoric peoples 88 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 3: and proximity to hot springs. 89 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I've countered this in other sources 90 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:40,800 Speaker 1: as well, making the argument that these peoples inevitably moved 91 00:05:40,839 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 1: around in order to survive and follow their food sources. 92 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,000 Speaker 1: If there was a hot spring in proximity to where 93 00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: they might stay, all the better. If there's a hot 94 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 1: spring on the way of point A to point B, 95 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: all the better. 96 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 3: Now, it's probably difficult to figure out at what point 97 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: immersion these waters would have taken on cultural associations with 98 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 3: healing or with wellness of the body, because use of 99 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 3: those sources could also just be for relaxation, for recreation 100 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 3: or for hygiene. 101 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: Right right, But then, of course, in the human mind 102 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: and the human imagination, how quickly do any of those 103 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 1: categories potentially touch on the sacred right? Whin does relaxation 104 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:27,480 Speaker 1: then become meditation? When does hygiene, become purity, etc. So 105 00:06:27,560 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: Smith writes that washing and bathing properly likely began during 106 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: the Neolithic period, and late Neolithic technology tackled the problems 107 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: of water heating, storage, and draining as they took the 108 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: experience of these baths out of their natural environment during 109 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 1: stretches of greater stability, prosperity, and surplus. And so a 110 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: true culture of bathing evolves, as do various ideas about 111 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: the benefits of bathing. And again, this kind of runs 112 00:06:54,160 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: the gamut. You can imagine it being just entirely subjective experience, 113 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: serience's actual hygienic value, and then supernatural ideas and everything 114 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 1: in between. Smith also points out that it connects with 115 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:13,960 Speaker 1: a very old notion that the human body is unfinished 116 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: and that it is left to us to clothe, adorn, groom, 117 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 1: and apply cosmetics in order to finish ourselves to a 118 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: level that meets individual and or cultural expectations. And this 119 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: is an idea that the author comes back to again 120 00:07:29,840 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: and again. And on one hand, it might seem like 121 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: an overstatement of the obvious, like if I'm you know, 122 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: you wake up in the morning, you're not fully ready, 123 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 1: or you know, you're naked, you're not fully prepared for 124 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: the world. But this takes it a step a step further, 125 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: considering the idea that you were not finished until you 126 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 1: have done these things, like there's sort of a base 127 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 1: level of who you are and what a human being is, 128 00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: but then there has to be this cultural extension to 129 00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: meet this ideal or as ideal of a self as 130 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: one can achieve the sort of real world. 131 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 3: This raises a really interesting idea that I don't think 132 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 3: I'd ever considered before, which is that in a sense, 133 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 3: you could think of bathing as a form of body modification. 134 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 3: So in its natural state, just living your life, your 135 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 3: body is going to be covered in various substances and 136 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 3: bits of dust and dirt from the environment, and with 137 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 3: oils that are naturally coming from your skin and all 138 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: the other things that accumulate through living your life. By 139 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,760 Speaker 3: bathing and removing those things from the outer layer of 140 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 3: your skin, you are in a way changing yourself, much 141 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: in the same way that somebody might be changing themselves 142 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 3: by say, applying a tattoo or anything like that. 143 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely, yeah, I mean, without even getting into the 144 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: higher levels of tattoos and cosmetics, just altering your body 145 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: hair changes your appearance. But also, as pointed out, we'll 146 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: get to this example in a bit like there are 147 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,199 Speaker 1: cases where hair removal has an impact then on the 148 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: potentiality for lice. So you are potentially augmenting your parasite load, 149 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: which is not something you need. Bathing and any kind 150 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: of hygiene culture for obviously mere grooming in non human 151 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: animals also can do the same thing, and many other 152 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,239 Speaker 1: animals have some sort of of a parasite to regulation 153 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 1: practice in their habits. But yeah, it's fascinating to think 154 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: about all of this, and I feel like you can 155 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: see the basic template of healing waters in a refreshing 156 00:09:31,800 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: hot shower, bath and all of this. So the experience 157 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: relaxes are perks you up, it's hygienic, But there is 158 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,960 Speaker 1: also this long human history again of associating physical hygiene 159 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 1: with spiritual purity, and in bathing our incomplete body, we 160 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: elevate it to a level at least just beyond the 161 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: naturally occurring world, if not like maybe a few steps 162 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: beyond the natural world, and we feel restored, we feel 163 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:59,360 Speaker 1: capable of dealing with I guess life in general, if 164 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: not particular obstacles. 165 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 3: Well, yes, and when it comes specifically to hot waters. 166 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 3: This is not based on any kind of scientific theory 167 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 3: I'm aware of, but I just I personally have thought 168 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 3: before that it seems to me there is a correlation 169 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 3: between visible rising gases or visible amounts of particle matter 170 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 3: rising in the air, and spiritual beliefs or beliefs about 171 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 3: sort of hidden mechanisms of power. So think about how 172 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 3: many religious rituals or beliefs about hidden mechanisms of power 173 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 3: are associated with smoke or steam or anything else that 174 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 3: you see rising and floating through the air. 175 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,720 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, It's a short step between so many 176 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: things about bathing and hotter cold waters to get to 177 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: some sort of spiritual interpretation or some sort of tradition 178 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 1: of sacred waters. Like I was just thinking about this. 179 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 1: You know, you get into either cold water or hotter water, 180 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 1: warm water to hot water, and one of the things 181 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: you're gonna experience is you're gonna have sort of a 182 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 1: full body experience all that cold or all that heat, 183 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 1: and it's like literally going to put you back into 184 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: the experience of your body more. You know, you're gonna 185 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 1: be You're gonna at least have a better shot at 186 00:11:16,320 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: experiencing the now, just because the ambient temperature touching your 187 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: entire skin is not just air temperature. 188 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 3: Now. One problem we're going to encounter in the series, 189 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: since we're talking about beliefs about the healing power of 190 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 3: immersion and water, is that this subject has the potential 191 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,520 Speaker 3: to be somewhat confusing because it touches on many different related, 192 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: sometimes overlapping beliefs and practices, both supernatural and natural, both 193 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 3: ancient and modern, both outlandish and mundane. So to sort 194 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 3: out a few common terms you might encounter in this area, 195 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 3: especially in the use of immersion in water as it 196 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 3: is practiced today in alternative medicine or even in standard medicine, 197 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 3: you've got the term hydrotherapy. This is a general umbrella 198 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 3: term that includes lots of different kinds of treatments, the 199 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 3: unifying feature of which seems to me to be the 200 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 3: application of water to the outside of the body. So 201 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 3: many things that are called hydrotherapy involve immersion in water 202 00:12:25,760 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 3: or somehow applying water to the outside of the body, 203 00:12:28,440 --> 00:12:32,440 Speaker 3: maybe by massage or spraying of some kind. The specific 204 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 3: term aquatic therapy seems more often, as best I can 205 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 3: tell to refer to a type of physical therapy involving 206 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 3: exercises you do while immersed in water. And it seems 207 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 3: to me that hydrotherapy is again a potentially confusing term 208 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 3: because it encompasses so much and includes some practices which 209 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: seem to me to be pretty strongly supported by empirical evidence, 210 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 3: maybe certain types of physical therapy involving exercises done underwater, 211 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 3: But it also includes all kinds of therapies that seem 212 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 3: to me obviously not to be supported by strong evidence, 213 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 3: and then others which are somewhere in between, maybe where 214 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:14,719 Speaker 3: the evidence is somewhat ambiguous. 215 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. In Smith's book, the author points out that the 216 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: term hydrotherapy is usually linked to eighteenth and nineteenth century 217 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: European health trends, but then these trends go in and 218 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: out of fad even into more modern times. So if 219 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 1: you're seeing it used in like literature for some sort 220 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:38,240 Speaker 1: of health or wellness business, they're probably not using it 221 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth or nineteenth century sense of it, but 222 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: they may it still maybe part of that fad. There 223 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,120 Speaker 1: may be some similar ideas that are tied up in it. 224 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 3: Yes, Now there are also much more specific terms such 225 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 3: as the term balneotherapy bal ineo balneotherapy, which is specifically 226 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 3: the treatment of disease by bathing or soaking, often in 227 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:05,599 Speaker 3: specific types or sources of water, such as mineral springs. 228 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Smith dates bound theology back at least to 229 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: the ancient Greeks. It's something that's like documented by Homer, 230 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 1: but was likely centuries old by that point, even influenced 231 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:17,640 Speaker 1: by various cultures. 232 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and then you've got other things like thilasso therapy. 233 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 3: This is treatment of disease with seawater. This is something 234 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 3: that apparently plenty of the Elder was a fan of. 235 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 3: We'll get to that a little bit later in this episode, 236 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: but you know, plenty of the Elder was like, there 237 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 3: is nothing better for health than salt from seawater and sun. 238 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: Did we We did an older episode about drinking seawater, 239 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,840 Speaker 1: didn't weigh and we touched on us some of these 240 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: these uh, these fads basically don't don't actually do it. 241 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: Don't go drink a bunch of seawater because you heard 242 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: it casually mentioned. 243 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 2: Right. 244 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 3: So in the series, even though we will inevitably shop 245 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: against related topics, we're going to try to focus mainly 246 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 3: on various balneo therapeutic beliefs and legends, beliefs about the 247 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 3: healing powers of soaking or bathing, and especially the belief 248 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 3: that there are specific places with waters that heal when 249 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: you bathe or soak in them. And beyond exploring these 250 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 3: legends themselves, I'm interested in the question are there any 251 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 3: cases where there's empirical evidence that soaking or bathing can 252 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 3: actually have a healing effect, and if so, how does 253 00:15:32,040 --> 00:15:32,520 Speaker 3: that work? 254 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: All right, let's get into ancient myths and legends a 255 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: little bit here to sort of lay some of the 256 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: ground work. It's kind of an interesting place to look 257 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 1: at in times where the history sort of breaks down 258 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: and look at some sort of general ideas about where 259 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: some of these ideas came from and their importance to 260 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: especially to ancient peoples. So, just concerning Greek myth, Smith 261 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: points out, to the gods Apollo and Artemis, we're closely 262 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 1: associated with sacred cold springs. But then to me anyway, 263 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 1: a kind of unexpected figure emerges as kind of a 264 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: hot spring and hydraulics technology. Hero I was not expecting 265 00:16:13,120 --> 00:16:16,400 Speaker 1: to think about Hercules or Heracles in this regard. 266 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 3: Oh, Heracles is kind of a hot spring mascot in 267 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 3: some cases. 268 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, hot springs, but also just like harnessing the power 269 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:28,640 Speaker 1: of water. So he is associated with the invention of 270 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 1: hot springs and Greek tradition this is after he was 271 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 1: thrown into the pool at Thermopylae and regained his strength 272 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: following the completion of his labors. Strong association here between 273 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: virility and hot springs. Apparently, these hot sulfur springs in 274 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: particular were also considered a gateway to the realm of Hades. Now, 275 00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 1: as for other myths about Heracles and water, I mean, 276 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: I think the one that should come to everyone's mind, 277 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: in part because we talked about it in Weird Del 278 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:57,840 Speaker 1: Cinema if you listen to a Weird Del Cinema episodes, 279 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: is the cleaning of the Igee and state the foulst 280 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: stables in all the land. This is one of the 281 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: challenges that Hercules had to deal with. This was of course, 282 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: as one of his labors. And how does he clean 283 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: them out? Well, he just redirects a river through them. 284 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 3: That's smart thinking. 285 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting because I never really thought about it 286 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: too much. I just figured, well, this is the kind 287 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: of thing that a very strong but a very clever 288 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,720 Speaker 1: hero would do. Right. But yeah, you think about redirecting 289 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 1: rivers and all you're getting into like the work of 290 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: canals and ultimately hydraulic technology. 291 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 3: Though actually when you think about it, I mean, if 292 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,440 Speaker 3: you've ever observed what happens when floodwaters go through a building, 293 00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 3: they do not actually clean it out. They make it 294 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 3: quite filthy. 295 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: Right right, But nowadays, if you're cleaning out stables, you're 296 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: probably using redirected water one way or another in the process. 297 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: Even if you're not just absolutely hosing everything out, you know, 298 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: you're having to use other tools, et cetera. Nowle Slash 299 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: Hercules also has some other encounters with various river gods 300 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 1: and certainly water entities. But the other big one from 301 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,199 Speaker 1: the labors is the slaying of the Hydra, which was 302 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: a water monster, and so this connection is not lost 303 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,640 Speaker 1: on other scholars that ran across the paper titled Heracles 304 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 1: and Hydraulics by JV. Loose from two thousand and six, 305 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,480 Speaker 1: and this paper points out that both the stables and 306 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:28,600 Speaker 1: the Hydra are essentially hydraulic labors, and the author contends 307 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: that there is a connection here between Heracles and late 308 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:37,159 Speaker 1: Helladic water technology and water management. So it's almost like 309 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: we could think of him as the kind of like 310 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 1: an ancient Greek saint of water technology. 311 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,520 Speaker 3: Wow, I've seeing Hercules in a whole new way. Is 312 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 3: the King of wet Yeah. 313 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 1: Anyway, going back to Smith, though, you also just have 314 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 1: to realize you have various ancient cultures that prize both 315 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: naturally occurring hot and cold springs and or the utilization 316 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: and development of technologies to artificially recreate these experiences in 317 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 1: the home, or in some homes or adjacent to the home, 318 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: or in some sort of communal setting. And you know, 319 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: I would I would refer back to some of our 320 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:18,120 Speaker 1: invention episodes that deal with various hydraulic technologies and plumbing 321 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: and so forth, and inevitably if you would probably be 322 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: surprised at just how far back some examples of these 323 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: technologies really go. Smith also shares a couple of great 324 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: examples that are in the book related to divine baths 325 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: of the ancient world. So these again are not We're 326 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,160 Speaker 1: not necessarily talking about naturally occurring waters here. We're talking 327 00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: about some sort of prepared water, or in some cases 328 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: there's not even something in the real world. It's just 329 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: again purely getting into religion and mythology. But first of all, 330 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,359 Speaker 1: in ancient Egypt, ancient Egyptian priests, who along with keeping 331 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: their bodies shaved and this had to do with with 332 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,360 Speaker 1: lies apparently oiled, also bathed in cold water twice each 333 00:20:03,440 --> 00:20:06,960 Speaker 1: day and twice each night to help maintain this kind 334 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: of ideal higher body that befit one in contact with 335 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: the divine. 336 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 3: If you're more familiar with Bible traditions, those also include 337 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 3: various kinds of ritual bathing in preparation for say, entrance 338 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:21,600 Speaker 3: into the temple or something like that. 339 00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,439 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, people are always having baths or getting their 340 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 1: feet cleaned by Jesus. It's just there's a lot of it, 341 00:20:28,760 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: and there's so many examples from so many cultures, you know, 342 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: because again these ideas of hygiene and beurity becomes so 343 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,480 Speaker 1: wound up with each other. Now, the pharaoh himself didn't 344 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: have to go through all of this, was not taking 345 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: necessarily two cold baths a day and two at night, 346 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: but still certainly had an extremely high standard of personal grooming, 347 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,919 Speaker 1: and was purified via some sort of a bathing ritual 348 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: at birth, at death, and then in the after life 349 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: as well, according to their beliefs. So Smith writes that 350 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: in the afterlife, it was said that he would be bathed, fumigated, shaved, 351 00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 1: and oiled by the Goddess nut. I believe Smith doesn't 352 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: specify the goddess, but I believe it's newt in this case, 353 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: and this would not only clean but revive him. Quote 354 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: he received his bones of metal and stretched out his 355 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: indestructible limbs. His body came together and was entirely refashioned. WHOA, 356 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: So that's a heck of a bath. It like physically 357 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: reassembles your body into some sort of unbreakable form for 358 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: the afterlife. And you have plenty of other examples of this, 359 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: but just one in passing here. Homer has a whole 360 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:43,520 Speaker 1: bit in the Iliad describing the goddess Hera cleaning herself, 361 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: putting on cosmetics. So even the gods in some traditions 362 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: have to strive to achieve the finished body, just like 363 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 1: mortals do. I guess they have a better starting place, 364 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: but they still have to do things to reach this 365 00:21:57,560 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: ideal level of godhood. 366 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:04,679 Speaker 3: Yeah, And speaking of Homer and the Iliad, this brings 367 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 3: us to the role of bathing and especially medicinal bathing 368 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 3: in Greek and Roman culture, which, though by no means 369 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 3: the only culture is to employ these practices, We're lucky 370 00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 3: to have a lot of sources on so I wanted 371 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 3: to turn to a paper called Water and Spas in 372 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 3: the Classical World, published in the Journal Medical History in 373 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 3: nineteen ninety by an author named Ralph Jackson. I looked 374 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 3: him up. Jackson was a scholar working at the time 375 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 3: for the Department of Prehistoric and Romano British Antiquities at 376 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 3: the British Museum, and it might not come as a 377 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 3: surprise to listeners here that one major source consulted on 378 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,959 Speaker 3: this matter is Plenty the Elder in his Natural History, 379 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 3: who in book thirty one writes, quote everywhere in many 380 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 3: lands gush forth beneficent waters here cold, they're hot, They're 381 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,399 Speaker 3: both in some places tepid and lukewarm, promising relief to 382 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 3: the sick. And so Jackson writes that in the first 383 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 3: century CE, the time of Plenty's writing, the Roman Empire 384 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:12,760 Speaker 3: had many spas, which they called aqui, and at the 385 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 3: time this paper was published, there was thought to be 386 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 3: written evidence of references to roughly one hundred or so 387 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 3: unique spa locations places usually fed by natural springs. Many 388 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 3: of these at the time of writing had not been 389 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 3: physically located or excavated by modern scholars. At some Roman 390 00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 3: spa locations we know where they are, though it seems 391 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: the springs have run dry. At other places, there's basically 392 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 3: been continuous usage since ancient times. 393 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,400 Speaker 1: I believe Smith, and this was a book from two 394 00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 1: thousand and seven, so I'm not sure where the account 395 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: still stands. But Smith writes that some four hundred major 396 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,400 Speaker 1: bath sites from them the area outside of Rome had 397 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 1: been found, but still more, of course, were completely unhearthed. 398 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 3: So going into Jackson's overview of the Greek and Roman 399 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 3: medicinal uses of water, he writes that if you go 400 00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,399 Speaker 3: farthest back in Greek history to like the Homeric period, 401 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,439 Speaker 3: which is literary period from before the classical Greek period, 402 00:24:13,720 --> 00:24:17,199 Speaker 3: bathing facilities were mainly associated at this point with just 403 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,679 Speaker 3: hygiene and comfort. So if you're a rich person, an 404 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 3: important part of being a good host is providing bathwaters 405 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 3: for your guests. But by the time of the ancient 406 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: Greek physician Hippocrates, like the fifth to the fourth century BCE, 407 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 3: it seems bathing had come to signify more than just 408 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 3: cleanliness and comfort. Bathing was part of medicine, and so 409 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,040 Speaker 3: many Greeks of this period saw bathing, specifically the use 410 00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,800 Speaker 3: of hot and cold bathwater as a way to regulate 411 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,480 Speaker 3: the bodily humors. Now we've gone into a lot more 412 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:55,080 Speaker 3: detail on humoral theory in the past and other episodes, 413 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 3: but in very short order, Humorism is an obsolete medical 414 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,199 Speaker 3: theory that traced health and disease to the balance or 415 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 3: proportion of four fluids also known as humors within the body. Yeah, 416 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 3: black bile, yellow bile, blood, and phlegm. This was thought 417 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 3: to explain a range of facts about a person, and 418 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 3: interesting note, there are still artifacts of this way of 419 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 3: thinking in our language today. So when you maybe describe 420 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 3: a person's temperament as sanguine or as phlegmatic, you are 421 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 3: referring to flim and blood blood the fluid. This is 422 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 3: based on the humor theory of personality. So under the system, 423 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 3: your personality or your current mood could be explained by 424 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 3: humoral equilibrium. Maybe your depression is a result of too 425 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 3: much black bile, et cetera, but diseases of the body 426 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 3: somatic diseases could also be explained by an imbalance of 427 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 3: these four fluids, and the four humors were each associated 428 00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 3: with various states of hot or cold and wet or dry. So, 429 00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 3: for example, yellow bile was hot and dry, blood was 430 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 3: hot and wet, black bile was cold and dry, and 431 00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 3: phlegm was cold and wet. And according to some ancient 432 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:22,120 Speaker 3: Greek physicians like Hippocrates, one way to help regulate your 433 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,719 Speaker 3: humoral balance would be to heat the body, cool the body, 434 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 3: moisten it, or dry it. 435 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and even today, you go to any kind of 436 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: like robust spa situation, you have various means at your 437 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: disposal to tinker with those settings, right. 438 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, you can tweak the knobs. Now. While the 439 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 3: humoral framework may have occasionally produced apparent healings or apparently 440 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 3: good results, we know today these probably would have been 441 00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,199 Speaker 3: due to placebo effect or maybe in some cases just 442 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 3: happy accidents. Humoral theory has no general factual basis, But 443 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:01,639 Speaker 3: this did not stop bathing from becoming and remaining an 444 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 3: extremely popular treatment for disease and ill health for centuries 445 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 3: all throughout the classical Greek and Roman regions. Why would 446 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 3: this be well? Jackson offers an observation that this is 447 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:15,399 Speaker 3: not proof of exactly why it worked this way, but 448 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 3: Jackson writes, quote, baths were both pleasant and by the 449 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 3: Roman Imperial period at least comparatively freely available. So they 450 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 3: were just pleasant. They're just nice, They felt good, and 451 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 3: you could easily get to a bath. These are a 452 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 3: couple of features shared by not all, but many popular 453 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 3: alternative medical treatments to this day. You might notice like 454 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 3: there may be no real evidence that this essential oil 455 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 3: has a direct mechanism of action against I don't know 456 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 3: what you're arthritis, but it's relatively cheap to get, it's 457 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 3: easy to get, and it smells nice, which makes you 458 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,119 Speaker 3: feel good, So you know that it's not hard to 459 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:55,880 Speaker 3: see why it would be a popular treatment. 460 00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: It also fit I think we've talked about this before. 461 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 1: It also checks off that box of something is happening, 462 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,440 Speaker 1: like a really strong smelling oil, or certainly just a 463 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: very hot shower or even just a very cold shower, 464 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,480 Speaker 1: et cetera. Like it. There's a certain shock to the 465 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: system that occurs that that you if you lean into 466 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: any kind of expectation, well then there you have it. 467 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,680 Speaker 1: There is the that's surely the effect observed. 468 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, it makes you feel something different or sense something different, 469 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: which helps create the feeling that something is happening in 470 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 3: your body. 471 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 472 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 3: So, the ancient Greeks and Romans had a number of 473 00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 3: different beliefs about the medicinal and therapeutic uses of baths. 474 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 3: But just to cite a few examples featured in this paper, 475 00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 3: warm water was often believed to help with the absorption 476 00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,520 Speaker 3: of nutrients from food because it quote softened the bather's body. 477 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 3: I don't know why I found this image so funny, 478 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,520 Speaker 3: but I did. I was trying to think, why would 479 00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 3: you think of it that way? Softening the body to 480 00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 3: absorb nutrients better? And I wonder maybe this is similar 481 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 3: to observing something from food like that kind of warm 482 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:17,080 Speaker 3: concoctions or warm does tend to emulsify and absorb ingredients 483 00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 3: more easily. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, just speculating there. 484 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 3: Then again, I don't know how cold their dough in 485 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 3: ancient Rome would ever get. I mean they didn't have refrigerators. 486 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: Well, if you're in water long enough, of course you 487 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: do get get kind of wrinkly, right, Yeah, you could 488 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: maybe be seen as a softening of the skin. 489 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, but also hot water baths were thought to treat 490 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 3: symptoms from pneumonia, including back in chest pain, to treat fatigue, headaches, 491 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:49,719 Speaker 3: and trouble with urination, to encourage urination. But in Roman times, 492 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: public baths were also important and complex community facilities. I 493 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 3: think it's very important to understand the like the many 494 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 3: different roles they combined, and how important they were for 495 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 3: a local community. Their function was at once hygienic, social, recreational, 496 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 3: and medicinal. So according to Jackson, for example, you know 497 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 3: you might go to the baths for hygiene and grooming, 498 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 3: so you're gonna go there to wash your body. Of course, 499 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 3: you can bathe in the water, but you can also 500 00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 3: get your skin scraped. They had these instruments called strigils 501 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 3: where they'd like kind of it wouldn't be exactly shaving, 502 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: but kind of scraping you down with a blade to 503 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 3: get like oil and dirt off your skin, and then 504 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: they would you know, maybe apply a new perfumed oil 505 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,160 Speaker 3: to you. You could also get your hair taken care of. 506 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 3: You can get unwanted hair removed. You might also go 507 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 3: to this bath for exercise, so in a way be 508 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 3: kind of like a gym. You also go there to 509 00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,960 Speaker 3: hang out and socialize with friends. You could get a massage, 510 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 3: or you could treat your diseases or get advice about 511 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 3: diet or health. So it combines all these different things. 512 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 3: It's got elements of a gym, a barber shop, like 513 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:04,080 Speaker 3: a IMCA with a pool and hot tubs. It's got 514 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 3: a hospital or a clinic, uh and and a public 515 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 3: bathing facility just all together into one. 516 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,120 Speaker 1: Yeah. For many people it becomes just a center of 517 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: their social life. 518 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: I remember we did an Invention episode about the invention 519 00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 3: of toilets, and one of the really funny things was 520 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 3: the Roman facilities that had apparently just like social toilets 521 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 3: where people would go, you know, sit on a latrine, 522 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:32,040 Speaker 3: but it's just a row of them all in the line, 523 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 3: where people would just hang out, I guess, and chat 524 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 3: while they're pooping. 525 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: You know. I this this is I have nothing to 526 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: back it up, but I do wonder like maybe they 527 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: had curtains and the curtains didn't survive, Like what would 528 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: what would people make of of a bathroom today where 529 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: the stalls had been removed and they were like they 530 00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: might think, we'll look at this. They just had one 531 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:53,840 Speaker 1: toilet next to another, they just walk in in there 532 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: the toilets. Oh maybe, I don't know, but I mean 533 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,200 Speaker 1: probably probably not, probably not. 534 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 3: But there were also many specific examples of ancient authors 535 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 3: prescribing hot or cold baths for different medical complaints. So 536 00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 3: one figure talked about in this paper is named Esklepiades, 537 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 3: who was an ancient Greek physician who worked in Rome 538 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 3: and lived from like the one twenties BCE to about 539 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 3: forty BCE. And Esclepiades advised the use of baths as 540 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 3: a treatment for the sick and preventive medicine for the healthy. 541 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 3: And though it seems prescriptions for hot water baths were 542 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 3: generally more common at the time, Esclepiades was known for 543 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 3: advising cold water, which led plenty of the elder to 544 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 3: refer to him with the nickname the cold water Giver. 545 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 3: One of his followers Antonius Musa, So this is a 546 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 3: guy who came up in the school of Esclepiades even 547 00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:53,320 Speaker 3: famously treated the emperor Caesar Augustus with cold baths, and 548 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 3: this is chronicled in Suetonius's biography Life of Augustus, in 549 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 3: which he writes, and this is translation by J. C. 550 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 3: Rolfe quote. In the course of his life, he suffered 551 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 3: from several severe and dangerous illnesses, especially after the subjugation 552 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 3: of Cantabria, when he was in such a desperate plight 553 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:14,680 Speaker 3: from absesses of the liver that he was forced to 554 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 3: submit to an unprecedented and hazardous course of treatment. Since 555 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,280 Speaker 3: hot fomentations gave him no relief, he was led by 556 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 3: the advice of his physician Antonius Musa, to try cold ones. 557 00:33:27,760 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 3: So he's getting cold baths for absesses of the liver, 558 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 3: and the use of this treatment by the emperor led 559 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 3: to fame and riches for Antonius Musa and led the 560 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:41,680 Speaker 3: cold water treatment to become somewhat fashionable. In fact, this 561 00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 3: is another thing I think we can see patterns of 562 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 3: today's you know, like one celebrity gets some particular type 563 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 3: of surgery or does some kind of health trend or something, 564 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 3: and it becomes fashionable. A bunch of other people want 565 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 3: to pick up on it. And in the case of 566 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,800 Speaker 3: cold baths for the liver, some practitioners at the time 567 00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:00,560 Speaker 3: even advised patients to bathe in cold water during the 568 00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,240 Speaker 3: depths of winter, so they took it seriously. On the 569 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 3: other hand, you had the Roman physician Kelsus, I think 570 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 3: sometimes maybe pronounced Celsus cel s Us, but I think 571 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:14,879 Speaker 3: those Roman seas are supposed to be a hard K sound, 572 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 3: so I'm going to say Kelsis recommended baths is a 573 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 3: treatment for quote skin complaints, diseases of sinews, gout wounds, 574 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 3: digestive disorders, wasting diseases, eye diseases, and fevers, as well 575 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 3: as in convalescence after surgery. And Kelsis here did not 576 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 3: agree with Esclapiattes and Musa on cold baths for absesses 577 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 3: of the liver. Kelsus recommended hot baths and said quote 578 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 3: all cold things must be especially avoided. So you got 579 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,560 Speaker 3: different schools of thought. There's also an ancient school of 580 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 3: medicine at this time known as the Methodists, and this 581 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,960 Speaker 3: might be obvious, but no relation at all to the 582 00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 3: Christian denomination. They were just called Methodists. They were named 583 00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 3: after their supposed adherence to the They were fond of 584 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 3: recommending baths and mineral springs, not just for immersion but 585 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 3: also for drinking. And the Methodist idea of physiology seems 586 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 3: a little hard to understand. I wasn't familiar with it 587 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 3: before I was reading and trying to put it together. 588 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,360 Speaker 3: Jackson explains it by saying that they classified diseases into 589 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 3: either acute or chronic, so to an extent we still 590 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,239 Speaker 3: do that today, but that they saw the cause of 591 00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:33,320 Speaker 3: disease as stemming from either excessive constriction or excessive relaxation, 592 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 3: and that baths could be used to treat these states. So, 593 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 3: for example, the Methodist physician named a Souranas of Ephesus, 594 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,240 Speaker 3: who lived from the first to the second century CE, 595 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 3: thought baths were an important treatment for inducing relaxation and 596 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 3: patients whose diseases were caused by too much constriction, and 597 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 3: he also advised the use of hot baths for women 598 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,399 Speaker 3: in later stages of pregnancy. Now, most of what I've 599 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 3: been talking about up to this point has been focused 600 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,200 Speaker 3: on ancient Greek and Roman beliefs about the medicinal or 601 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 3: therapeutic uses of hot or cold baths in general, but 602 00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 3: there were also beliefs about the special healing properties of 603 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 3: specific waters the sites often called spas, such as sulfur springs, 604 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 3: alum springs, bitumen springs, alkaline and acid springs, as well 605 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 3: as of sea water, which, as I mentioned earlier, plenty 606 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 3: endorsed as being you know, there's nothing more beneficial for 607 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,759 Speaker 3: the body than salt. And I think we're going to 608 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 3: come back to more thoughts about these specific water sources 609 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,120 Speaker 3: and their associated spas in the next episode or later 610 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 3: in the series. But I couldn't leave it off here 611 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 3: without a taste of a brief reading from Plenty the 612 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 3: Elder in the Natural History book thirty one, about people 613 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,480 Speaker 3: who take it a little too far, who get a 614 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 3: little too excited about the alleged healing powers of the spa. 615 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 3: So are you ready for this, yes, Plenty rights. Sulfur waters, however, 616 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 3: are good for the sinus alum waters for paralysis and 617 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 3: similar cases of collapse. Waters containing bitchumen and soda, such 618 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:10,759 Speaker 3: as those of coutelia, are good for drinking and as 619 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 3: a purge. Many people make a matter of boasting the 620 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 3: great number of hours they can endure the heat of 621 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,560 Speaker 3: these sulfur waters, a very injurious practice, for one should 622 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:25,080 Speaker 3: remain in them a little longer than in the bath afterwards, 623 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,239 Speaker 3: rents in cool fresh water, and not go away without 624 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 3: a rubbing of oil. The common people find these details irksome, 625 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,200 Speaker 3: and so there is no greater risk to health than 626 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:39,080 Speaker 3: this treatment. Because an overpowering smell goes to the head, 627 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 3: which sweats and is seized with chill, while the rest 628 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,560 Speaker 3: of the body is immersed. Those make a like mistake 629 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 3: who boast of the great quantity they can drink. I 630 00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 3: have seen some already swollen with drinking to such an 631 00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:57,520 Speaker 3: extent that their rings were covered by skin since they 632 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,279 Speaker 3: could not void the vast amount of water they had swallowed. 633 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:03,919 Speaker 3: So it is not good to drink these waters without 634 00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 3: a frequent taste of salt. It's back on the salt again. 635 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 3: So that's the problem. People go into the spa that 636 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:13,879 Speaker 3: they're like, they sit in the sulfur water too long, 637 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 3: it goes to their head. But then they're also like, 638 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 3: I'm gonna drink all this spa water. I'm gonna drink 639 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 3: so much that you won't be able to see my 640 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 3: jewelry anymore. My rings will disappear between the swollen skin 641 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 3: and the problem I didn't get some salt in between, 642 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 3: that's the problem. 643 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: I mean, I love this because also there is some 644 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: sound advice here. I mean, obviously, if you drink too 645 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: much water that can hurt you. Yeah, and also if 646 00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: you stay in some sort of a hot tub or 647 00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 1: asana or a steam room situation longer than advised. You 648 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: can also run up against some ill consequences. So you know, 649 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 1: at heart there's some good advice here, and just not 650 00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 1: necessarily a modern understanding of exactly what the risks are. 651 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 3: No, I totally agree, actually plenty giving sound advice. 652 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,040 Speaker 1: That is right, my sound advice, And this is why 653 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: IMCA advice is, don't get into a conversation with a 654 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,759 Speaker 1: talkative old fella in the sauna because that guy, no 655 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:17,520 Speaker 1: matter how nice he is, he can inevitably sustain it 656 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,520 Speaker 1: enhance temperatures for far longer than you can, and it 657 00:39:22,520 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: will be harder and harder to tear yourself away as 658 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: you become overheated, and while trying to remain polite and 659 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:30,760 Speaker 1: nodding your head to their stories. 660 00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:34,560 Speaker 3: That is also sage advice, if I may say, pliny 661 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 3: and caliber. But like I said, we'll come back to 662 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 3: discuss some more specific mineral springs and spas and localized 663 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 3: water traditions in the next episodes. 664 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:48,840 Speaker 1: Now, do you want to come back to Virginia Smith 665 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: for just a little bit, because the author has an 666 00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,479 Speaker 1: entire chapter on the Roman baths, and I just wanted 667 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: to run through some bits here that may shed some 668 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: additional light on so what we've been talking about. First 669 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,240 Speaker 1: of all, Smith writes that the Romans were heavily influenced 670 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:08,240 Speaker 1: by the Greek concept of the managed life, which seems 671 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: to line up fairly closely with this idea of the 672 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,120 Speaker 1: Finnished body. But in both cases Greeks and Romans, but 673 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:16,640 Speaker 1: especially the Romans, bathing was also part of politics and 674 00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:20,479 Speaker 1: state craft. So again, I mean, part of it comes 675 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: down to like where you hanging out, but also it 676 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 1: gets tied up in these just ideas of culture, and 677 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:30,640 Speaker 1: with the Romans, the Roman bath becomes part of their 678 00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: civilizing process. 679 00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,359 Speaker 3: Yes, I get the sense that for the Romans, like 680 00:40:36,520 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 3: having a good local bath facility was part of kind 681 00:40:41,200 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 3: of town pride. It was a part of what made 682 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 3: you show that your society was sophisticated and powerful. 683 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So the Roman elite, they certainly had their 684 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: baths and like their bath, but they also somewhat erradically 685 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:58,520 Speaker 1: over time spent money on healthy services for the people 686 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,800 Speaker 1: that included public baths, along with other things like town doctors, 687 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: sports programs. Kind of get getting into that what you're 688 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:07,799 Speaker 1: talking about with the idea of the Roman bath as 689 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,560 Speaker 1: being this gymnasium slash mcas you know, and everything else. 690 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: These programs, Smith rights, would have only impacted about a 691 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,879 Speaker 1: quarter of Roman imperial residents, those living in cities and 692 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 1: regular bathers, so those two things had to line up. 693 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 1: But that's still quite a lot of cleanliness for the 694 00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,880 Speaker 1: time period. And Smith writes that quote urban Roman life 695 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,880 Speaker 1: would have been inconceivable and a lot more fetted and 696 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 1: visibly filthy without the various public baths, latrines, fountains and 697 00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: taps served by the Roman aqueducts. And that, of course 698 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: is that's a whole issue in and of itself. Like 699 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: to power all of this, you need to be able 700 00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,200 Speaker 1: to control the water. You need to be able to 701 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 1: bring the water where you need it to be, and 702 00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:57,520 Speaker 1: the aqueducts were a huge engineering victory on that front. Also, 703 00:41:57,840 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: you need a good you need a good sewer system, 704 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: and when they worked, the Kloaca or the Roman sewers 705 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: were also an essential part of the system. This reminds 706 00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: me of our Invention episode on the toilet. You know, 707 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,719 Speaker 1: when you're tracing the history of the flushing toilet, it's 708 00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: one thing to be able to supply it with water 709 00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: quite another to have a good drainage or sewage system 710 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:19,280 Speaker 1: to back it up. 711 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,640 Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, I mean I think you could argue that 712 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:27,040 Speaker 3: when it comes to waste disposal technology, the good drainage 713 00:42:27,120 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 3: or sewer system is the more important element than the 714 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 3: toilet itself. 715 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. So, like we were saying that the baths were 716 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:38,799 Speaker 1: an essential part of Roman life, and Smith points out that, Yeah, 717 00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: in fact, if you look at if there's a decline 718 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:44,720 Speaker 1: of the bath system in a given city, there's generally 719 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,680 Speaker 1: a sign of greater economic instability or some of their 720 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: kind of unrest. Like you can use it as sort 721 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 1: of a you know, the litmus test for how life 722 00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:56,480 Speaker 1: is going in that particular corner of the empire or 723 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: the empire as a whole. Now, Smith notes that the 724 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: main reason for the Roman public baths was quote pleasure 725 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: politics and propaganda rather than disease prevention proper. But the 726 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: hygienic impact, while likely marginal, that thin margin still might 727 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: have been enough to tip the scales in public health. 728 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,120 Speaker 3: Okay, but this would be talking about its actual effect 729 00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:21,239 Speaker 3: on health rather than perceived effect on. 730 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: Health, right, right, Like, how for all of this bathing 731 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:28,600 Speaker 1: and talk of the humors, like was it actually making 732 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: any kind of an impact on the overall health of 733 00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 1: a population, and so the probably not to a large degree, 734 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,560 Speaker 1: but the small degree to which it did have an 735 00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: impact that might have been enough to say, sort of 736 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,800 Speaker 1: keep a society like a little more healthy than normal 737 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:48,080 Speaker 1: and maybe just on the right side of you know, 738 00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,600 Speaker 1: pandemic illness, that sort of thing. And I don't know 739 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: if we'll get into this in the next episode or not, 740 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: but like another thing to consider with like the global 741 00:43:56,680 --> 00:44:01,120 Speaker 1: history of bath cultures is that at times they're there, 742 00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 1: does become a disease fear regarding these places, and sometimes 743 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:08,879 Speaker 1: there's a moral panic regarding these places, and we see 744 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,400 Speaker 1: that played out with the popularity of say, you know, 745 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: spas and saunas throughout European history. Now, the Romans were 746 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:20,200 Speaker 1: apparently initially resistant to the Greek idea of the bath gymnasium. 747 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure exactly why, but they eventually gave in 748 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 1: between twenty nine and nineteen BCE according to Smith. So 749 00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:30,400 Speaker 1: whoever was in Roman culture we're saying no, we should 750 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,520 Speaker 1: not have a gem at the bath, they're finally like, okay, 751 00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:35,840 Speaker 1: that's fine, we can have a gym at the baths. 752 00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: I found this really interesting. So again, a lot of 753 00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:42,759 Speaker 1: these the Greek enthusiasm for baths, this gets inherited and 754 00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,680 Speaker 1: co opted by the Romans. But the Romans were likely 755 00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 1: so gung ho for all of this in part because 756 00:44:48,840 --> 00:44:52,120 Speaker 1: of a pre existing bath culture connected to the various 757 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:54,799 Speaker 1: volcanic hot springs on the Italian peninsula. 758 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,480 Speaker 3: Yes, okay, so here you see we see connections causal 759 00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 3: connections between culture in geology. 760 00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:03,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's also an important reminder that even if 761 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: we're talking about sort of like the the importance of 762 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:10,320 Speaker 1: Greek bath culture Roman bath culture and how these different 763 00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,920 Speaker 1: cultures and spread to different areas, it's still not a 764 00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: situation where somebody like Hercules is coming along and saying, hey, guys, 765 00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: I just invented something. Get this, what if you put 766 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,160 Speaker 1: your whole body in warm water? Like and then everybody's 767 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:26,400 Speaker 1: mind is blown, you know. And no, it's it's like 768 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: that these ideas would have been widespread already. So any 769 00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: place that suddenly encounters like the Roman idea of baths, 770 00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,680 Speaker 1: it's not all completely new to them. There might be 771 00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:38,600 Speaker 1: it might they might be stressing some things that were different. 772 00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:40,520 Speaker 1: There might be some sort of wrapping for it. You 773 00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,279 Speaker 1: know these I likes, say maybe the ideas of the 774 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: humors or something to that effect, but just the idea 775 00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: of enjoying the benefits of a hot spring or a 776 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:53,160 Speaker 1: cold spring, those are likely already inherent in a given 777 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,440 Speaker 1: culture for one reason or another. But then there will 778 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:59,719 Speaker 1: also be different pre existing bathing cultures as well. And 779 00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,080 Speaker 1: includes a nice example of this. So the Etruscans were 780 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:06,280 Speaker 1: apparently all about small half baths, and they didn't dig 781 00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: communal baths, even for like families. The Romans thought differently though, 782 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,319 Speaker 1: and so and even with the Romans, though, you have 783 00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:17,320 Speaker 1: the situation where they had to come around to fully 784 00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,480 Speaker 1: accepting the idea of the Greek gymnasium bath. So even 785 00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:25,160 Speaker 1: though everybody might generally be okay with the idea of 786 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,279 Speaker 1: bathing in hot water or bathing in cold water, they're 787 00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,719 Speaker 1: going to be different ideas about particular benefits or how 788 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: you should go about doing these things culturally. And then 789 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:39,120 Speaker 1: again we get into the geography again, which sites are important, 790 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,879 Speaker 1: which sites are important within a given culture, and then 791 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:46,920 Speaker 1: which sites end up being co opted by cultures that 792 00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,000 Speaker 1: you take over a given area in vada given area 793 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:52,080 Speaker 1: or just over the long course of time become dominant 794 00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,240 Speaker 1: in a period that once had different ideas. 795 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 3: All right, well, I think we're going to have to 796 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:58,360 Speaker 3: call it there for part one of the series, but 797 00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,439 Speaker 3: we will be back next time to discuss more about 798 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 3: the healing waters. 799 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly. In the meantime, if you have anything you 800 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:09,280 Speaker 1: want to write in about concerning traditions of healing waters, 801 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 1: or just experiences with pleasant waters, if you want to 802 00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,480 Speaker 1: talk about particularly great springs you've been to, that sort 803 00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,080 Speaker 1: of thing, We're always interested in that. I don't know 804 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,800 Speaker 1: how much we'll be able to get into various cultures 805 00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,839 Speaker 1: in the episode or episodes ahead on this topic. So yeah, 806 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:29,520 Speaker 1: there's something near and dear to your heart write in. 807 00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: We'd love to talk about it on a listener Mail episode. 808 00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: Those listener Mail episodes, by the way, come out on Mondays, 809 00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,120 Speaker 1: our core episodes of stuff to blow your mind about 810 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:39,799 Speaker 1: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we do a short 811 00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:42,520 Speaker 1: form artifact or monster fact, and on Weird House Cinema 812 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,000 Speaker 1: on Fridays we just take a little time to talk 813 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: about a weird film. 814 00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:49,800 Speaker 3: Huge thanks to our audio producer JJ Posway. 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