1 00:00:00,640 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references 2 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. On the previous 3 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: episode of Wicked Words. 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 2: It's the story of four men who were murdered in 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:23,040 Speaker 2: New York over a three year period in Manhattan, and 6 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 2: they were or were presumed to be gay, and it's 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 2: about the resulting police investigations. 8 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,960 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold War wicked On Exactly Right. I've 11 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: traveled around the world interviewing people for the show. I've 12 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,320 Speaker 1: interviewed some people in person and some from my home 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: studio over zoom, and they are all excellent writers. They've 14 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: had so many great true crime stories, and now we 15 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:59,120 Speaker 1: want to tell you those stories with details that have 16 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: never been public. Wicked Words is about the choices that 17 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: writers make, good and bad. It's a deep dive into 18 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:12,679 Speaker 1: the stories behind the stories. During part one of my 19 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: interview with author Elon Green, we learned that a serial 20 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: killer was murdering men in New York City in the 21 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: late nineteen eighties and early nineties. Four men were killed. 22 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: Two were affluent tourists, one was a sex worker, and 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: the last was a local who had a small inner circle. 24 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:30,480 Speaker 1: A crime lab in Maine gets a hit on some 25 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:34,039 Speaker 1: fingerprints found on the bags containing the body parts of 26 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: the victims, and the killer's prints are in the system 27 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 1: because he's connected to a murder in nineteen seventy three. 28 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: Investigators finally have a break, But who do the prince 29 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: belong to? This killer might surprise you. 30 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 2: She knows that there are these matching prints, but she 31 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,120 Speaker 2: doesn't know precisely what they're matching too. So she takes 32 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 2: these prints and brings them I think it was really 33 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: down the road to the State Bureau of Identification, and 34 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 2: they pull up the case that the prints are attached to, 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 2: and it's a murderer from nineteen seventy three. 36 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: Wow. 37 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 2: And she sees that there's a big stamp on the 38 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: packet that says expunged. And she sees that these prints 39 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: are attached to a murder trial that had resulted in 40 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:26,959 Speaker 2: an acquittal. 41 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy three. 42 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy three, so this is. 43 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 1: Twenty years before the last murder. 44 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: That's right, And the fingerprints were still in the system 45 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 2: despite the expungement. So she goes back to the lab 46 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: and wonder of her colleagues verifies her findings. 47 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: And then she's found the killer. 48 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 2: Jumping out of her skin, she calls the New Jersey 49 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 2: State Police, and you know, she says, I got your guy. 50 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:57,360 Speaker 2: Who is the guy Richard Westall Rogers who was a 51 00:02:57,440 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: nurse at Mount Sinai Hospital in manhatt. 52 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 1: So Mount Sinai is still just the wrong one, right, 53 00:03:02,560 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: didn't the tipster say Mount Sinai but in Staten Island, 54 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: not in New York. 55 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: One of the tipsters had said Saint Vincent's, Oh in 56 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 2: Staten Island. But they did get another tip that said 57 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 2: Mount Sinai. No, I mean, I verified that they actually 58 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:25,680 Speaker 2: had his file, like they had him sitting there. 59 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: How did they not put it together? There was just 60 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: no there's no physical evidence to connect the two, right, 61 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: I mean, he was probably lost in a sea of 62 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: other nurses. 63 00:03:33,440 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: Years later, when that fingerprint analyst read the book, she 64 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 2: got very upset. She said they had so much to 65 00:03:42,880 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 2: work with. They should have solved this case in nineteen 66 00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 2: ninety three, and she said they had asked for the 67 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: files from Mount Sinai. She said, we want the files 68 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 2: of male nurses who live in Staten Island and that's 69 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: a fine night number of nurses. And at that point 70 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: what they should have done was to send detectives to 71 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 2: all of these men and interview them, but they didn't 72 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: do that. 73 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: That would have been based on that tip, right, that 74 00:04:13,880 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: one tip that said a male nurse from Staten Island 75 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: who worked at a hospital, Okay. 76 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 2: That's right, who worked at Mount Sinai and was seen 77 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 2: at the townhouse. 78 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:23,480 Speaker 1: Okay. 79 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: They got a tip in August of nineteen ninety three 80 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: about a nurse at Mount Sinai and the source had 81 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,400 Speaker 2: this anonymous source had met this man at Julius, which 82 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 2: was one of the oldest gay bars in the city, 83 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:44,559 Speaker 2: and had taken him home and had awoken to find 84 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 2: that the nurse was trying to tie him up, and 85 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: one of the detectives had written in the daily notes. 86 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 2: He writes. The source states the subject had an uncontrollable 87 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 2: compulsion to tie him up, However, he resists didn't fled 88 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 2: his apartment. The source states he then met the subject 89 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 2: again by chance in Townhouse bar and restaurant. He states 90 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 2: at that time the subject propositioned to go home again. However, 91 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 2: he would not go home with it. The source states 92 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: the subject is a nurse at Mount Sinai Hospital and 93 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: has an apartment on Staten Island. The source could offer 94 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: no further information regarding the subject other than a physical description. 95 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: Well, so it's pretty clear. 96 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 2: Yes, it just doesn't describe that many people. 97 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: Right, it's kind of corroborating with the other tip. So 98 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: what do we know about Richard Rogers Junior? 99 00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: It depends what do I know or what do detectives? 100 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 1: Now, maybe a combo. What do they know when they 101 00:05:48,800 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 1: first figure this out, when they first get the hit, 102 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,119 Speaker 1: and everybody's excited after seven to eight years of waiting 103 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: around for this, right. 104 00:05:57,440 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 2: Well, they don't find out that much about him because 105 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 2: they don't really need to. Once they have the fingerprints, 106 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 2: they of course find that he's the nurse at Mount Sinai. 107 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: They get his work calendars, his personal calendars, his credit 108 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 2: card records, so they can establish more or less where 109 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 2: he's been when he had days off, you know, where 110 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,680 Speaker 2: he was pretty much on any given day. They find 111 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 2: that he visited the townhouse, that he visited the Five 112 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: Oaks that are people who remember him, and you know, 113 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 2: they act pretty quickly, pretty quickly, once they have a name. 114 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: What do they find out about that murder trial from 115 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:41,920 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy three? What was that all about? 116 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 2: Well, what happened was in nineteen seventy three, Richard Rogers 117 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 2: was a grad student at the University of Maine. He 118 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 2: was studying French and he was living in an off 119 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: campus house with three other men. And one day in 120 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,520 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy three, he came home and claimed that one 121 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 2: of his housemates, Fred Spencer, came on to him and 122 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 2: attempting to also steal stuff out of his room. Some 123 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: combination of the two. Richard attacked him with a claw 124 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: hammer and hit him seven or eight times. Any one 125 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 2: of the blows would have been fatal, a medical examiner 126 00:07:32,120 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: said later. 127 00:07:33,520 --> 00:07:35,040 Speaker 1: Was Richard out at the time. 128 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: Depends on who you ask, But if you're asking, did 129 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 2: the general population at the University of Maine, No, he 130 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: was gay, absolutely not, and it probably would have been 131 00:07:47,840 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 2: foolish for him to have been out in nineteen seventy three. 132 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 2: In me so, after Richard was arrested, Richard was taken 133 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 2: away by the state police and then he was fingerprinted. 134 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:07,560 Speaker 2: At the believe it was the bangor County Jail. And 135 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: in a way, this is where events really turn because 136 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: whoever took his fingerprints at the County jail did an 137 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: extraordinary job. Most fingerprints that were taken during that period 138 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: and for many years after are terrible because people are 139 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 2: not properly trained in how to roll fingerprints. And you know, 140 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: one of the dirty little secrets of aphis is that 141 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 2: it's only as good as the fingerprints that are in 142 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: the system right. 143 00:08:39,760 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: And that's why fingerprints have come under such scrutiny, because 144 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: you really you have to have a high quality print, 145 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: and then you have to have an analyst who knows 146 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: what they're doing. And frequently at a crime scene, just 147 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: grabbing a glass is not going to give you a 148 00:08:53,679 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: good enough print. And I went to the DMB last 149 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: year and it took me five times to get the 150 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: print right. So good. So they had a really good 151 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: person with a print pad. That's great. 152 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, So they took his fingerprints and eventually he stood 153 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 2: trial for the murder of Fred Spencer and he pled 154 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: self defense. He had a locally famous lawyer named Errol Payne, 155 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 2: who had founded the law firm with future Secretary of 156 00:09:25,760 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: Defense William Cohen. Errol got him off on self defense. 157 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: So this sounds like gay panic defense. Is that right? 158 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:34,320 Speaker 1: Is that essentially what it was? 159 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: I think so. One of the associates in the law 160 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: firm told me that that's what it was. But you know, 161 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: a transcript doesn't survive, and I can't find any definitive 162 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 2: proof that that was the case. However, I talked to 163 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: people who were living in Orno and Bangor at the time, 164 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 2: and they said it was known that there was a 165 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: so called gay angle to this case. So my suspicion 166 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 2: is that they thought, okay, like one gay guy killed 167 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 2: another gay guy, that can't possibly be worth locking him 168 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 2: up over, because well, there was nothing ambiguous about this. 169 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: When Richard killed Freddy, he did not call the police. 170 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:27,640 Speaker 2: He instead wrapped his body in a tent or a 171 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 2: tent like material, put him in the car, and dropped 172 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 2: him off by the side of the road. 173 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: Were there any indications of something similar? I mean anything? 174 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 1: Was he tied up in any way? 175 00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 2: Like? 176 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: Looking back, does it seem like part of his mo 177 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 1: besides of course, wrapping him up. 178 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 2: To me, the only thing that really points from point 179 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 2: A to point B is taking him to another location 180 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 2: and leaving the body and you know, to some degree 181 00:10:57,679 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 2: wrapping him up. I mean it seems sort of like, 182 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 2: you know, the first try. 183 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 1: He was found not guilty, this was expunged, and he 184 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: goes on and lives his life. Do we have any 185 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: idea what happens to him between seventy three and ninety 186 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: one when Peter is found, he's the first person to 187 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: be found. 188 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 2: He moves to New York, He enrolls in nursing school. 189 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 2: He goes to Pace University in nineteen seventy nine or 190 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: nineteen seventy eight. Just immediately out of nursing school, he 191 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,320 Speaker 2: gets hired by Mount Sinai, which is on a hiring 192 00:11:31,360 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 2: spree at that time. They hired hundreds of nurses and 193 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: so it was a great time for him to be 194 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 2: on the job market, and they hired him, and he 195 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 2: moved to Yonkers and was commuting from Yonkers for a while, 196 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 2: and he began working with cardiac surgeons and working with 197 00:11:53,840 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 2: babies who had, you know, just undergone the traumatic heart surgery. 198 00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: And he was considered to be quite an exceptional nurse, 199 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 2: which is why he was working with the most difficult cases. 200 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,240 Speaker 1: Someone who has a lot of empathy. 201 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: Yep, and a contrary to the conventional wisdom about serial killers. 202 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 2: He possessed great empathy, and he could talk to parents, 203 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: and he could talk to children, and he was even 204 00:12:20,120 --> 00:12:24,359 Speaker 2: known to be very funny and have a sense of humor. Eventually, 205 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,760 Speaker 2: he leaves Yonkers, he buys an apartment in Staten Island. 206 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: He keeps getting promoted, and he keeps working very hard, 207 00:12:34,920 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 2: taking long vacations, going on road trips all around the country. 208 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 2: When he makes a stop in nineteen eighty two for 209 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: his ten year college reunion, they go to I believe 210 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 2: it was Daytona Beach or Orlando, and while he is there, 211 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:57,360 Speaker 2: a young man named Matthew John Piero disappears in His 212 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 2: murdered body is found and remains unsolved to this day. 213 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 2: But detectives are quite certain that the murder was committed 214 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:17,319 Speaker 2: by Richard Rodgers, but that will remain open forever because 215 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 2: he will never be tried for it. 216 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: So before we get to what happens with Richard, the 217 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,440 Speaker 1: thing that has been nagging me has been these garbage 218 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: bags full of body parts that are being deposited in 219 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:32,680 Speaker 1: these barrels with the hope that you've said, most likely, 220 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: the hope that Richard was hoping they were going to 221 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: get picked up and he wouldn't get caught. What do 222 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: you think, elon, are the chances that he got lucky 223 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,720 Speaker 1: sometimes and that there were some that got picked up? Oh? 224 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: I mean, personally, I feel it's one hundred percent. I 225 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 2: tend to agree with the investigators who think that there 226 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: are probably dozens of other victims. I think that there 227 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 2: are many cases that are classified as missing persons cases 228 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 2: and probably just aren't. I think it strains belief to 229 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 2: think that he did not murder anybody between nineteen seventy 230 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 2: three and nineteen ninety one. 231 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:15,959 Speaker 1: Yep. 232 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I suppose that could happen, and I suppose 233 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 2: it has happened, But given how many people he killed 234 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,960 Speaker 2: in such a short period of time between nineteen ninety 235 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 2: one and nineteen ninety three, it seems unlikely to me. 236 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 2: And I'm just I'm not commenting on his state of 237 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: mind or anything like that. I don't know and I 238 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 2: don't care, but it does seem like something would have 239 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:43,680 Speaker 2: happened in those eighteen years. 240 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: How do we as a society reconcile these two types 241 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: of people the nurse, the empathetic nurse who's caring and 242 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: outgoing and then someone who can change so quickly. 243 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 2: So for a little while I did try to actually 244 00:14:58,720 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 2: reconcile what I thought I knew about Richard with this 245 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 2: new information about him being a wonderful nurse and having 246 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: empathy and a sense of humor. And then I realized 247 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 2: that I didn't have to do that because we are 248 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: not the same person to everybody in our life. We 249 00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: are different people when we're with our parents, or our partners, 250 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 2: or our superiors at work. I bet if they all 251 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 2: compared notes, maybe there'd be some overlap, but I bet 252 00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 2: a lot it wouldn't. And I don't know if we 253 00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: have to reconcile this stuff or if it's just simply 254 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: a part of being a human being. 255 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:52,520 Speaker 1: Doesn't it concern you, though, that somebody like that has 256 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: the ability to be such a different person. This guy, 257 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: Richard Rogers, seems to me to be the deaf notion 258 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: of what we fear a killer, is someone who is 259 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: so out of the ordinary, such an outlier. 260 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 2: Sure, but I guess I don't find it so troubling 261 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 2: or disconcerting because I just think that that's a way 262 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: more common. So called contradiction or whatever you want to 263 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: call it then we'd like to believe. I think you 264 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 2: just have to be willing to not see somebody like 265 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 2: Richard as someone who's so anomalous, and to not see 266 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 2: his particular evil as something unusual, because I don't think 267 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 2: it is. It's very comforting for society to, you know, 268 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 2: look at people like that and think, you know, wow, 269 00:16:46,520 --> 00:16:49,480 Speaker 2: this is singular. It's not so. 270 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: In the year two thousand, police have now his records, 271 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: his credit card information. What happens next? Are they arresting 272 00:16:58,040 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: him immediately? 273 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 2: So that's not what they want to do. What they 274 00:17:01,040 --> 00:17:04,640 Speaker 2: want to do is to surveil him because they are 275 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 2: pretty aware that while they are pretty certain they've got 276 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 2: their guy, they don't know that much about him. They 277 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,960 Speaker 2: don't know what he does when he's not working, they 278 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 2: don't know if he has other properties. Part of what 279 00:17:22,359 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: they're so concerned about is they don't know where the 280 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 2: crime scene is, so they think, well, maybe he's got 281 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 2: a dungeon somewhere, you know, maybe he's got an apartment 282 00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:33,960 Speaker 2: we don't know about deep in the woods. And there's 283 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 2: a lot of questions they need answer. So they talk 284 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,359 Speaker 2: to the NYPD, and they are more than happy to 285 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 2: turn over this part of the case to the NYPD, 286 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 2: because you don't want an out of state agency surveiling 287 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 2: a suspect in a location they're not familiar with. They'll 288 00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,920 Speaker 2: stand out. And so it's all agreed that over Memorial 289 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,200 Speaker 2: Day weekend of two thousand and one that the NYPD 290 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 2: will surveil him. And people differ on how long this 291 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 2: surveillance was supposed to last, but you know, certainly it 292 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: was going to be at least a couple of days. 293 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 2: So everybody's very excited about this prospect. And the New 294 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 2: Jersey detectives and the Rockland County detectives are all at 295 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: their respective homes having barbecues on Memorial Day weekend, and 296 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 2: then they start getting phone calls, and what they find 297 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 2: is that Richard W. Rogers has been picked up and 298 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: arrested and is sitting in one police plaza in Manhattan. 299 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 2: And as more than one detective said on what grants, 300 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 2: the NYPD had jumped the gun. What I was told 301 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: was Bernard Carrick, the police commissioner, essentially wanted to do 302 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 2: a favor for his boss, Rudolph Giuliani, the mayor who's 303 00:18:59,880 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 2: mother was a patient at Mount Sinai, and although empirically 304 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,520 Speaker 2: she was not in any danger at all. It was 305 00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 2: decided that they did not want a serial killer running 306 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: around Mount Sinai Hospital while the mayor's mother was a patient. 307 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: Are you serious? Really? 308 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: That's right? And so they scooped him up and it 309 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: short circuited the surveillance and that was that. 310 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 1: I'm talking with author Elon Green about the suspect and 311 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: the murders of four men in New York. He's a 312 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,880 Speaker 1: nurse named Richard Rogers Junior. This killer is not at 313 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 1: all who investigators would have suspected. But now he's being 314 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:04,200 Speaker 1: arrested by the NYPD and the police prepared to interrogate him. 315 00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 1: Was NYPD even a major player in this task force? 316 00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: They weren't, right, Wasn't it led by Rockland County? 317 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:13,720 Speaker 2: You said, Rockland County and the New Jersey State Police? 318 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: Yeah? 319 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 2: And although they did some work, I would not say 320 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,520 Speaker 2: that they did any work that was decisive. 321 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:24,160 Speaker 1: So he's under arrest and YPD arrests him. What happens 322 00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 1: next is he lawyer up? Does he talk? 323 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: So they picked him up under a bit of a ruse. 324 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,880 Speaker 2: They told him that they simply wanted to get him 325 00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 2: out of Mount Sun, and so they said that there 326 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:42,439 Speaker 2: were incidents of credit card fraud and that he had 327 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 2: been the victim of and they wanted to talk to 328 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 2: him about it. At some point he realized that he 329 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 2: really wasn't there for an incident of credit card fraud. 330 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 2: So when the detectives get there, of course they don't 331 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: have much time to repair, but two of them go in. 332 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: They don't really beat about the bush. They sit down 333 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 2: and they ask him if he knows each of the victims, 334 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 2: and perhaps because he knew he'd been seen with Michael Sicara, 335 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: he acknowledges knowing Michael Sicara. Then, before they can really 336 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 2: go in anything else, you know, Richard says, well, I 337 00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 2: don't know how much more I can really help you, 338 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 2: and one of the detectives snaps, you're not here because 339 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: we need your help, Richard. We're here because we have 340 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:31,399 Speaker 2: physical and circumstantial evidence, you know, that you murdered these people. 341 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 2: And from there, once they go through the evidence, Richard 342 00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 2: clams up. He does not really give them anything and 343 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 2: never would again. 344 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,440 Speaker 1: So he's charged with how many murders. 345 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 2: He's charged with two? He's charged with two because of 346 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: where the bodies were left. So he's charged. In the 347 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: case of Tom and Anthony, I think maybe Rockland County 348 00:21:55,359 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 2: would have charged him, except that the evidence had been dadged, 349 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 2: the medical examiner had destroyed the bags, and in the 350 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,359 Speaker 2: case of Peter's death, I kept hearing that, Look, if 351 00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 2: there ever comes a time when Richard is let out 352 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: of jail, he will be charged in Pennsylvania the second 353 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: his feet at the front steps of the prison. Okay, 354 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 2: But because he was being charged for two of the murders, 355 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 2: the other jurisdictions didn't feel any pressure to charge him 356 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 2: as well. 357 00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 1: So he's charged with these two murders and he pleads 358 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 1: not guilty. 359 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 2: Yes, And it's about four and a half years later 360 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 2: finally goes to trial. 361 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: So this is two thousand and five, correct, Okay, So 362 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: what happens at trial? Does he have a defense? I 363 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,800 Speaker 1: wasn't there. Your evidence is phony, somebody planted the fingerprint 364 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 1: kind of thing. 365 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 2: No, they don't really dispute the evidence. They just basically say, 366 00:22:56,160 --> 00:23:00,159 Speaker 2: you don't know when those fingerprints were on the backs. 367 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 2: Was an excellent lawyer, a veteran lawyer of capital cases, 368 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 2: well regarded, probably couldn't have done much better, But there 369 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: was really only so much they could do. I mean, 370 00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: part of the defense was, look, you don't know when 371 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,199 Speaker 2: the fingerprints were on the garbage bags. But also a 372 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 2: big part of the defense was, you don't know where 373 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 2: the crime scene is, so you don't know if Richard 374 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 2: was ever at the crime scene. Furthermore, you may not 375 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 2: even have had the right to try him in this 376 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 2: case because you don't necessarily have jurisdiction. The prosecutor actually 377 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 2: thought that this was not a bad defense, and he 378 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,359 Speaker 2: was not certain he was going to be victorious. 379 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: Could they bring up the seventy three case in court 380 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: or no? Because it was expunged, they could not bring 381 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: that up. 382 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 2: I believe that is not brought up. But they could 383 00:23:54,720 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 2: bring up the murders of both Peter and Michael, supposed 384 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 2: to establish a pattern. The judge was pretty lenient about 385 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 2: what they could bring in. He also drew the line 386 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 2: at bringing in the murder from nineteen eighty two. I 387 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 2: believe he said that in the case of the murder 388 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 2: from nineteen eighty two, the mo was too different, and 389 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: as far as the murder in nineteen seventy three, it 390 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:20,920 Speaker 2: was simply too old. 391 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: So is there a turning point in the trial or 392 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: does it just go to the jury? 393 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 2: Not really. I mean, one of the reasons I actually 394 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: don't write about the trial and any great detail in 395 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: the book is because although while it is a very 396 00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 2: interesting trial and riveting, it is not unusual. There are 397 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:46,040 Speaker 2: no dramatic twists and turns, and in the end, the 398 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:51,919 Speaker 2: prosecutor just simply put together an extraordinarily good, mostly circumstantial case. 399 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 2: They took a few hours and convicted him. And I 400 00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: got a hold of an unredacted version of Wadir, so 401 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: I figured out who the jurors were, and I got 402 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 2: one on the phone, and you know, she said, there 403 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: wasn't a whole hell of a lot of doubt. 404 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. What was the coverage like in the press? 405 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 2: It got a little bit of coverage in the New 406 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: York Times, got some coverage in the Aspbury Park Press. 407 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 2: I think that was more day to day coverage. The 408 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 2: New York Times covered, you know, at the end, there 409 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:24,680 Speaker 2: was some coverage here and there, but that was basically it. 410 00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:29,199 Speaker 2: My feeling is that there probably would have been some 411 00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 2: more written about the case after the conviction, except that 412 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,879 Speaker 2: a few months after the conviction a couple of planes 413 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:36,920 Speaker 2: hit the World Trade Center. 414 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: So is he in prison now. Is he still alive. 415 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 2: Yes, he has been in New Jersey State prison since 416 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 2: two thousand and six, which is when he was sentenced. 417 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 2: At least, if his letters or anything to go by, 418 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,359 Speaker 2: he's not having a bad time. 419 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: Has he written you? Have you contacted him? 420 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,479 Speaker 2: I have never talked to him. He has never returned 421 00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,919 Speaker 2: any of my letters. But he does love writing letters 422 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,119 Speaker 2: and corresponds with people who happily pass along the letters. 423 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,159 Speaker 1: Does he know that, I wonder. 424 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 2: He knows I think about one of the correspondents and 425 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 2: has badmouthed me a little bit in some of those letters. 426 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: What does he say? 427 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 2: He thinks I'm a hack and he didn't like the 428 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:22,280 Speaker 2: letters that I sent him. 429 00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: Oh so a killer who's critical of your writing? Okay? 430 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,479 Speaker 2: He says he may or may not read it and 431 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 2: doesn't know if he could even get a copy of 432 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 2: it if he wanted to. 433 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 1: Was this a case of victims not being paid attention 434 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,160 Speaker 1: to because of their sexual orientation? 435 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,160 Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean I think that was definitely a factor, 436 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 2: and not necessarily on a case by case basis or 437 00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 2: an investigator by investigator basis. But when you were talking 438 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:56,840 Speaker 2: about institutions that are bigoted, and never mind the media 439 00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 2: who also have the same biases. Your case is not 440 00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 2: going to be treated with white gloves, and you're not 441 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 2: going to be treated like Patty Hurst or whatever you 442 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 2: want to compare it to. I think that many investigators 443 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 2: did good work, some did shitty work, But even the 444 00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 2: ones who were doing good work were operating under a 445 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,120 Speaker 2: system that did not value those victims. Oh, there's only 446 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 2: so much they could do. As far as the media coverage, 447 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 2: some of it was good, some of it was not. 448 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: But even the coverage that was gross had research value 449 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 2: because sometimes even if for a porter was a piece 450 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:42,160 Speaker 2: of shit, they were well sourced, and so that mattered 451 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,679 Speaker 2: from a journalism perspective. 452 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,680 Speaker 1: Piece of shit in what way the language they used 453 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: to describe the victims. 454 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,880 Speaker 2: Or yeah, that's right, or just the general palpable disgust, 455 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 2: and the tabloids would refer to it as a gay 456 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 2: slay the language of the time. 457 00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: What did you learn from writing this book? Just a 458 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: journalism and what you yourself Elon Green, are interested in 459 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:07,119 Speaker 1: writing about. Did this teach you anything? Have you reflected 460 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: on that? 461 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:13,520 Speaker 2: I realized that I'm not so much attracted to stories 462 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 2: as I am attracted to people. I never had a 463 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: bad day working on this book, and that's because, you know, 464 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,240 Speaker 2: as bleak as the subject matter was, and it was 465 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: unremittingly bleak, I got to talk to incredible people every day, 466 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,720 Speaker 2: and there were only a few exceptions where I would 467 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 2: get off the phone and I think that person's a 468 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 2: piece of shit. It was really about the people, and 469 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:45,479 Speaker 2: obviously the investigation is sort of the narrative driver in 470 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: some ways. But the privilege of being tasked to put 471 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: together the lives of these men was just so exciting, 472 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 2: and I just found that such an extraordinary thing to 473 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: be asked to do. I was never happier when I 474 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,719 Speaker 2: was just thumbing through a yearbook, finding people to talk to, 475 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 2: finding fraternity members of Peter Anderson or classmates of Tom 476 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: o'kayhe and ending up on the phone with Whitey Bulger's brother, 477 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: or talking to the last living member of the composing 478 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,440 Speaker 2: room of the New York Law Journal he remembered Michael. 479 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 2: For me, that was the excitement maybe people get from 480 00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:34,000 Speaker 2: breaking some political story. That was the excitement I felt 481 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,000 Speaker 2: finding out what Tom o'kay he did after school or 482 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: where he worked in college, Because you know, I've written 483 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: about famous people, some of them internationally known to some degree, 484 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 2: it's not really a challenge because they're so well documented. 485 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,120 Speaker 2: If you're writing a book about Bob Dylan and you 486 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:53,600 Speaker 2: want to know what he was doing in June of 487 00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty three, I guarantee you somebody's written about it. 488 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 2: But when you're writing about somebody who is only known 489 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 2: in the circles of his family and friends who are 490 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 2: still alive after eighty years, it's a much harder task 491 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: and much more rewarding. I would argue, Well. 492 00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: One of the things I really liked hearing you say 493 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: is that the lack of information that you found about Anthony, 494 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: the third victim was frustrating to you. And I think 495 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: that that is not out of a I have to 496 00:30:25,520 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 1: find the facts journalistic integrity thing. I think that's there, 497 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 1: but it sounds like it's more of you cannot show 498 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: the impact of this man's death without revealing who the 499 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 1: man is, and that's part of being an author. 500 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 2: Yes, I felt that in order to feel the pain 501 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 2: of somebody's absence, you have to know what they were 502 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 2: like when they were there, and especially in the case 503 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: of Anthony, who had gotten the short end of the stick, 504 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 2: and during his life and then during his death when 505 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: the press covered in I felt like such an asshole 506 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 2: that I was basically doing the same thing to him, 507 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: not for lack of trying, but even find out where 508 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 2: he went to high school or if he went to 509 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,239 Speaker 2: high school. There were loose threads here and there, but 510 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 2: it just didn't go anywhere. That was frustrating, but it 511 00:31:13,760 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 2: also just was painful. 512 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: But it shows how vulnerable Anthony, someone like Anthony was, 513 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: and people like Anthony continue to be with predators, predators 514 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,360 Speaker 1: that aren't necessarily going to kill them, but that just 515 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: will demean them. So I think you did an incredible 516 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: job with the book. And is there anything that I 517 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: haven't covered? 518 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,719 Speaker 2: We could talk a little bit about trauma and the 519 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 2: way that journalists traumatized sources. One of the hardest parts 520 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: in the book to write was the chapter about the 521 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 2: murder of Fred Spencer in Maine in nineteen seventy three. 522 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,920 Speaker 2: And this was a murder that, once it was uncovered 523 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 2: eighteen years later, was literally relegated to a sidebar. It 524 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: had been written about somewhat contemporaneously in nineteen seventy three, 525 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: but not much, and it was the most labor intensive 526 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 2: part of the book. I interviewed Fred's high school classmates, 527 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:19,880 Speaker 2: I interviewed his high school girlfriend. I interviewed his physics teacher. 528 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 2: I was in touch with his nephew, who didn't really 529 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: know him, never got to know him. And I for years, 530 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 2: you know, sort of lightly lobbied to talk to Fred's siblings, 531 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 2: but they never wanted to. For them, this was such 532 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 2: an open wound all these years later, and Fred was 533 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 2: a really extraordinary kid and brilliant. And it was a 534 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: rough chapter, in part because I could see what my 535 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 2: work was doing to people. When I talked to his girlfriend, 536 00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 2: I gave her a pseudonym the book, because she's actually 537 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 2: kind of a high powered I talked to her for 538 00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:02,960 Speaker 2: an hour an hour and a half, and she told 539 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:08,920 Speaker 2: me about their relationship and the aftermath of his murder. 540 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: And I got a call from her a couple of 541 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 2: weeks later and she said, you know, I was a 542 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 2: mess for like a solid week after we talked. And 543 00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,719 Speaker 2: it's just something that I think about a lot now, 544 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 2: Like you're asking people to essentially relive the worst periods 545 00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 2: of their lives for your own gain, and I don't 546 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 2: think we think enough where what we're asking them to 547 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: do is affecting them. And I definitely had decided early 548 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 2: on in the writing of the book that if somebody 549 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,600 Speaker 2: said no to me, I was not going to ask 550 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 2: them twice unless there was a fact checking issue or 551 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 2: something and something they had to respond to, but just 552 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: to sort of sum it up, regardless of what I 553 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 2: was trying to do, and I felt that there was 554 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: an important bigger picture here with these stories. For the 555 00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 2: son of a victim, say, I was just writing about 556 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: how his dad cheated on his mom and then he 557 00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,399 Speaker 2: was murdered, and that's also a valid way to look 558 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,840 Speaker 2: at And it's not for me to say that anyone 559 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 2: is missing out on the bigger picture, because that's their picture. 560 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us this season on Tinfold, War Wicked 561 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: presents Wicked Words on exactly right. A huge debt of 562 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: gratitude to each of the wonderful journalists who took the 563 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: time to chat with us. Wicked Words will be back 564 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,440 Speaker 1: next year with all new episodes. In the meantime, Tenfold 565 00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 1: War Wicked is back. Our new season introduces you to 566 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: the Tiger Woman and her family. She's our first female killer. 567 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: We're taking you to the nineteen twenties Los Angeles, with 568 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 1: a story involving a fatal drive, a jail break, and 569 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: a hammer. The new season of two More Wicked drops 570 00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 1: on Monday, January seventeenth, but you can hear the trailer 571 00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:07,719 Speaker 1: on January tenth if you follow tenfold more Wicked's feed. 572 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, please check out my 573 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: books American Sherlock and Death in the Air. This has 574 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,719 Speaker 1: been an exactly right tenfold more Media Production. Alexis and 575 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: Morosi is our producer, Andrew Eapen is our sound designer. 576 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: Ellen Middleton is a researcher for us. Curtis Heath does 577 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: the composition, Nick Toga did the artwork, and ILSA Brink 578 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:41,840 Speaker 1: designed the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hardstark, Karen 579 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Daniel Kramer. 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