1 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:17,400 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline and Caroline. We are kicking off 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: a two parter on advice columns, which might seem excessive. 5 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: How on earth could these women talk about advice columes 6 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: for two podcasts? I have no idea. I mean, it's 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: not like there's a long history or anything. Is there 8 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: there is? Tell me surprise, surprise, advice columns that a 9 00:00:41,760 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: hidden history that we were unaware of. Yeah, it goes 10 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:48,920 Speaker 1: all the way back to the seventeenth century. Who knew 11 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: some guy in the seventeenth century had a problem and 12 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: he was like, well, I'm too embarrassed to talk about it, 13 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 1: So I was going to start advice column in a newspaper. 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: It's funny how that happens. And that problem was that 15 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: one Mr John Dunton, who was a London bookseller, was 16 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:12,040 Speaker 1: having an affair. Yeah, and someone of his social standing 17 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: couldn't just go around talking about it. So in sixteen 18 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: ninety Dunton starts The Athenian Mercury. And he doesn't just 19 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: start the Athenian Mercury, he also creates a society, And 20 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: basically the society is made up of quote unquote experts. 21 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: And I say quote unquote because they weren't all real, 22 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: they didn't all exist, And it was basically just a 23 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: group of Dunton's friends who would get together in a 24 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: local coffee shop and talk about people's problems. What advice 25 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: they would give them, because they would have people right 26 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: in in the in the same format as we think 27 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: of today with advice columns. They would read the letters, 28 00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: they would answer the letters, and they were published in yes, 29 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: the Anthenian Mercury. But can I tell our listeners it's 30 00:01:56,520 --> 00:01:58,720 Speaker 1: full name. Hit me with the full name, because it 31 00:01:58,800 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 1: was an entire publication. It wasn't just one column that ran, 32 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: say in a newspaper at the time, although of course 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: that would come out of this. So get a load 34 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: of this in six ninety Dungeon starts, and I'm sure 35 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: that this must have been a lot for the printer 36 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: at the time, The Athenian Gazette colon or Casuistical Mercury, 37 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 1: resolving all the most nice and curious questions proposed by 38 00:02:23,840 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: the ingenious of either sex. See, they were equal opportunity 39 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: even then women women folk could write in But yeah, 40 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: I think it's incredible. I mean, people there must have 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,679 Speaker 1: been a real thirst for this kind of thing, being 42 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 1: able to ask questions anonymously, because he and his society 43 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: answered more than six thousand questions during the paper's ten 44 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 1: year run. And you know, so we have this anonymous 45 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 1: factor right off the bat that people are able to 46 00:02:51,639 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: send in their questions anything from political to environmental, to 47 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: love and sex and all that stuff. Yeah, and you 48 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: can imagine that this must have been a godsend at 49 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:09,399 Speaker 1: the time because in communication was so limited. I mean, 50 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: we were such a far cry from having the Internet 51 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: with Google, where we can just go on there and 52 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: ask whatever we want. Um, but can we talk about 53 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,119 Speaker 1: a couple of the original questions? Yeah, there was one 54 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: that was really pressing, very important, and and today it 55 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: might even it might even you know, strike a chord 56 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: with some people, and that that question is why is 57 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: horsepoop square? Why is horsepoop square? Yeah? I wish that 58 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: I had the exact wording with me, but it was 59 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: essentially saying, horses, but but the poop is square. Here's 60 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: here's uh, here's the answer. They are formed quadrilane quadrilangularly 61 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: in the rectum by pretension and compression upon one another 62 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 1: as any other round or obla. The substances which are 63 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: soft would be if they were thrust together. Answering the 64 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: hard hitting questions from day one? Can you get more 65 00:04:09,040 --> 00:04:13,320 Speaker 1: poetic about horsepoop? I don't think so. I submit that 66 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: you can. But in the same publication, when they're asking 67 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:22,239 Speaker 1: about horsepoop and we're like, oh, those seventeenth century fuils, 68 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,479 Speaker 1: they are asking questions that are still asked today in 69 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,720 Speaker 1: advice columns, such as whether it is lawful for two 70 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: unmarried persons each consenting to cohabit, et cetera, since marriage 71 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: was a thing set up by man essentially, ken, is 72 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: it cool if we live in sin together? Can we 73 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: shack up? And that be a okay? Yeah? But I 74 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: also like, I mean, I read some of the other 75 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: questions that were very superstitious in nature, like one guy asking, 76 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 1: you know, why are frogs and ravens and you know 77 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,800 Speaker 1: other animals considered evil? Like why are they such bad luck? 78 00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: And they do? They offer very common sense answers to 79 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: some of these questions, like or maybe you're just noticing 80 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 1: them when you're having a bad time, right. John Dundon 81 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: dud a bit of a bit of a sassy attitude, 82 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 1: which is the same thing too that we see throughout 83 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: the history of advice columns, especially as it becomes this 84 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,960 Speaker 1: regular thing that pops up in newspapers. But before we 85 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: fast forward too much, uh, we should mention that in 86 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 1: these first advice columns, these first vice publications, they were 87 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,919 Speaker 1: largely run by men. For instance, in seventeen four we 88 00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: have Daniel Dafoe, the author of Robinson Crusoe, who came 89 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: across Denton's column and he wrote his own essays about 90 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 1: manners and moralities under the identity of the Scandalous Club, 91 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: prompting more than forty letters a week from readers. And 92 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 1: I think did he did he get on board with 93 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: the Athenian Mercury. I don't think so. I think he 94 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 1: was running his own thing. Yeah, because it became a 95 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: pretty a pretty hot thing to do among these thinkers 96 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: at the time. Because it was also a time when 97 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: people were really starting to exchange ideas, the idea of 98 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, salons, people getting together to to talk about 99 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 1: different issues that were coming up. Yeah, these early advice 100 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 1: columns that were run by a newspaper publishers and editors, 101 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 1: because I guess back then you could just like wake 102 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: up in the morning and decided to start a newspaper. 103 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: But the aspirations were really larger than just talking about 104 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,120 Speaker 1: relationships or marriage or sex questions, things like that, or 105 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: you know, even things that we would think of as 106 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: as our more modern you know, advice column topics. And 107 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: just like Kristen said, a lot of it had to 108 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:37,800 Speaker 1: do with bringing people together. So this is coming from 109 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: David Gonalinus's book Confidential to America, Newspaper Advice Columns and 110 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: Sexual Education. He talks about how in the seventeenth and 111 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,800 Speaker 1: eighteenth century the advice column was really solidified in urban London. 112 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 1: This is a time when citizens were searching for a 113 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:56,479 Speaker 1: common channel to share information and engage in debates in 114 00:06:56,560 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: a quickly modernizing environment. There was no Internet. There were 115 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: only these newspapers and pamphlets and things that people could 116 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 1: publish their problems in and then read responses. And it 117 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: was a way not only to get advice or maybe 118 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:13,160 Speaker 1: you know, glean advice from somebody else's problem, but also 119 00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: find out what's going on in your own community. Yeah, 120 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: this gave people a platform to address their community. Um. 121 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: He calls it the quote mobilization of the public sphere, 122 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: and people were pretty active with writing into newspapers. And 123 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: while this also facilitated letters to the editor, which we 124 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 1: still have today in newspapers and magazines and even websites 125 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 1: as well. But then there were some that that weren't 126 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,040 Speaker 1: that wouldn't necessarily fit into letters to the editor because 127 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: they didn't deal directly with something that the publication had printed. 128 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: So then you have those excess pieces becoming more fodder 129 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 1: for advice columns. Yeah. Well, this definitely was not just 130 00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 1: happening in Europe and London. This is also happening in 131 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 1: early America, where Benjamin Franklin offered practical advice through his 132 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: character Silence do Good because you can't use your real name, 133 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: and these advice columns. Yeah, that is another thing from 134 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: the get go is we really love the idea of 135 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 1: writing to this anonymous persona because it makes them seem 136 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 1: maybe bigger, more, all knowing and able to help if 137 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: if they're not just thought of as some schmuck from 138 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: down the street answering questions from their living room in 139 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: their pajamas. Yeah, because you know John Dunton, bookseller who 140 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: is having a trouble with an affair is not quite 141 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 1: as alluring as Oh the the this Mercury Athenian person 142 00:08:42,600 --> 00:08:47,360 Speaker 1: society is answering my question. He knows why square, he 143 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:49,800 Speaker 1: must be smart. Well, no, yeah, I do think it's 144 00:08:49,840 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: interesting that he to solidify his you know, his reason 145 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 1: for answering these questions, his authority. He ends up inventing 146 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: all of these people, like we have a German and 147 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,680 Speaker 1: a Dutchman, and a Spaniard, and an Englishman and a 148 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: priest educators. Like he said, all of these different people 149 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: were in his society just so you would feel, I guess, 150 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 1: like they had the authority to answer questions. Of course, yeah, 151 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: we want expert advice. Well, moving forward past Benjamin Franklin 152 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: into you know, the turn of the century. The first 153 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: u S General advice column launches in the New York 154 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 1: Evening Journal at the turn of the century, and character 155 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 1: advice columns hung around well into the twentieth century. Yeah. 156 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: For instance, one of the popular character advice columns that 157 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: pops up around this time is in the San Francisco Examiner, 158 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: the Dingelspiel Answer Some Letters column, which was a forum 159 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: for German humor as the time. So I bet it 160 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: was very funny. Yeah, well, I mean you have all 161 00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: these you have all these groups of people coming to 162 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:05,080 Speaker 1: America and they're looking for a connection. Just like we said, 163 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: you know, the advice column was not just you know, 164 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: can I live with someone before marriage? Why the horses 165 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: poop square? It was it was really a way to 166 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: connect with your community. And so if you felt like 167 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: you were homesick for Germany, you could turn to you 168 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: could reach the dinkle Spiel. Yeah, advice column. Historians have 169 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: also called out a Benttal Brief which started in nineteen 170 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: oh six and it was launched in the newspaper the 171 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: Jewish Daily Forward, and it was really part of the 172 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: birth of the modern columns. And it was such a 173 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: good example of what you were talking about in terms 174 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: of having a an expert voice, in terms of assimilation, 175 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: of learning how to how to navigate this brave new world. 176 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: It was also one of the few modern columns written 177 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,840 Speaker 1: by a man, because at this point, you know, as well, 178 00:10:56,880 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: we'll go back to some early pioneers of women written 179 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 1: advice columns, but this, uh, the Bental Brief drew on 180 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 1: the tradition of wise men rather than the Mother Confessor, 181 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 1: which we'll talk about um. But you know, a lot 182 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: of Jewish immigrants would have in their native countries turned 183 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: to a rabbi or someone else in their community to 184 00:11:17,960 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: seek advice. So this advice column was just kind of 185 00:11:21,160 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: the written version of that turning to a wise man 186 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: to answer these questions about how do I adjust to 187 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 1: life in America. But once advice columns really get going 188 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: in terms of seeing them not only just in the 189 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:41,199 Speaker 1: major newspapers but also in magazines and specifically women's magazines, 190 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: they become this feature that is a voice by and 191 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: for women in a lot of ways. Yeah. In October twelve, 192 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 1: Jessica Weisberg wrote a really informative story that was kind 193 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 1: of a jumping off point for me to do this 194 00:11:56,559 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: this research for The New Yorker. She says that the 195 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: traditional vice column was designed to be playful, and the 196 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: modern advice column columns really emerged as a figure who 197 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 1: wrote mainly for female audiences and encourage propriety, manners and practicality. 198 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: So these columnists were really kind of enforcing social rules 199 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 1: and helping readers decide what was required of them. Yeah, 200 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 1: if you look at these advice columns that start really 201 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: in the Victorian era women's magazines and trace them up 202 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: through today. You can chart women's history in a lot 203 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: of ways because they first start out in women's magazines, 204 00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: really sticking to matters of the domestic sphere, how to 205 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:46,440 Speaker 1: raise your kids, how to tight lace corsets, when braziers 206 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: came into braziers, when bras came into fashion and women 207 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: stopped wearing courses, that was a big thing that was 208 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 1: taken up in these advice columns of saying is this okay? Um? 209 00:12:58,360 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: And it was a lot of telling when men how 210 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: to live. And then as feminism starts to come in 211 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: in gender roles begin to change, you see the nature 212 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: of the columns looking at more interpretive things of whether 213 00:13:14,520 --> 00:13:18,280 Speaker 1: or not it's okay to live your life in in 214 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: certain ways, not just how to do things, but why 215 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: are we doing certain things? Yeah, and there's the quote, 216 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 1: the advice column is a site of sexuality. Discourse did 217 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: not emerge until women rescued the format from male editors 218 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: and publishers. So, just like you're saying, as society moves 219 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: along and we are more open with our talk of 220 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 1: sexuality and gender and all this stuff, the advice columns 221 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: move with it. And one of the reasons that women 222 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: staked such a huge claim in advice columns is because 223 00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth century, not surprisingly and even today, female 224 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: journalists were relegated to social reporting with topics such as abolition, temperance, 225 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 1: and the stuff fridge movement. And as the female readership grew, 226 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: the newspapers at the time said, hey, you know what 227 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: the ladies like to read, lady riders, so we should 228 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: bring them on and have them write these advice columns. 229 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 1: See which, yes, which, in a British accent, is the 230 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 1: thought process and down Nabbey when Lady Edith goes to 231 00:14:17,679 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: write a column bringing it all back, ladies and gentlemen, 232 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: that's right, um. And thanks to the yellow journalism wars 233 00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: between Hearst and Pulitzer, we have the emergence of the 234 00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: Sob Sisters, who were these female reporters that were sent 235 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: out to give an emotional spin on news stories of 236 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: the time, and also female columnists, the the advice columnists 237 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: of the era. Yeah, in Pulitzer's World Newspaper launched one 238 00:14:48,600 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: of the first women's pages, and by nineteen hundred most 239 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: papers had one, and looking at that nineteen hundred census 240 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 1: of the thirty over thirty thousand journalists in the United 241 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: Dates two thousand, one hundred and ninety three were women. 242 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: And so it's around this time that they're like, like 243 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: Kristen said, Okay, well maybe maybe it is good business 244 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: to have more women writers on staff. But aside from 245 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 1: the SOB sisters, you know, who were out there writing important, 246 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:19,840 Speaker 1: long stories, they were emotional, there wasn't so much hard 247 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: hitting female journalists, right. But nevertheless, those women's pages were 248 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: such boons to these newspaper empires because advertisers loved them. 249 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,760 Speaker 1: It's the same story that we see today in terms 250 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 1: of the value of women to advertisers because we're doing 251 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: all the shopping. And it's funny, we don't see women's 252 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: pages necessarily in large publications like the New York Times today. 253 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: But what is it? It's the style section. Yeah, it's 254 00:15:47,640 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: still the same, you know, it's similar versions of the 255 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: same old thing. But one of the big names to 256 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: come out of all of this was Elizabeth Merryweather Gilmour, 257 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: whose name you might not have heard of, but you 258 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: might have heard of her pseudonym Dorothy Dix. Yeah, Dix 259 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: and or Gilmer got her start actually to support her 260 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: mentally ill husbands was at the end of the nineteenth century. 261 00:16:11,040 --> 00:16:13,800 Speaker 1: And yeah, she was one of the four original SOB sisters, 262 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: who included Ada Patterson who was a herst journalist, Nixila 263 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: Greeley Smith who was a writer for the New York 264 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:23,720 Speaker 1: Evening World, and Winifred Black a k a. Annie Lori 265 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: and Dix is an interesting figure. She um wasn't a 266 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: very happy marriage, as you can imagine, and she really 267 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: just pushed forward. She went after this career. Uh started out, 268 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: you know, writing tales of murder and crime and all 269 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: this stuff before making all of her wealth and fame 270 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: through her column yeah listeners in New Orleans. She gets 271 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 1: her first advice column at the Times Piccune in New 272 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 1: Orleans because the editor is all like, hey, you're a lady. 273 00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 1: These columes written by ladies with advice. That's a good idea, 274 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: and Dorothy Dix was like, okay, I'll do that. In 275 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: the fun fact, she picked her pseudonym Dorothy Dix because 276 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: apparently alliteration was very fashionable at the time in names. 277 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,520 Speaker 1: So Chris in Conga, maybe I should have been an 278 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: advice columnists. There you go. I have no I have 279 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 1: no alliteration, Caroline Curvin, Okay, I'll take it, um. But 280 00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:25,320 Speaker 1: her first column, as she launched in The Times, pick 281 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,360 Speaker 1: you and was called Sunday Salad, which I very much 282 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:33,440 Speaker 1: enjoy and she became known as the mother Confessor two 283 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: millions because her column became widely syndicated and people loved 284 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: her advice. Yeah. By forty this is mind blowing by 285 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: Dorothy Dix talks. Her column was published in two seventy 286 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: three newspapers with an estimated worldwide readership of sixty million. Yeah. 287 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: Some sample titles just to get an idea of what 288 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: Dix wrote about was our you good company to yourself, 289 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 1: which sounds like something you would read today about dating yourself, 290 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: keeping young yep. Was still we're still reading about that. 291 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 1: And our lives are what we make of them, which 292 00:18:12,119 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: is essentially every inspirational poster summed up into one advice column. 293 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: And she was hugely famous. I mean you mentioned all 294 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: of the newspaper syndications and her readership, but in New 295 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: Orleans also started Dorothy Dick Stay. There were popular songs 296 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: about her. Uh. There was even an incident when she 297 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: traveled to Japan and when she got off the train, 298 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: she was bombarded by a group of Japanese girl Scouts 299 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,199 Speaker 1: who were so pumped to meet her, and there were 300 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 1: even Dorothy Dick's impostors out there trying to capitalize on 301 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 1: her name. And as this is going on, just on 302 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: a side note for lit fans out there, in nineteen three, 303 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:57,760 Speaker 1: Nathaniel West publishes Miss Lonely Hearts, which was a popular 304 00:18:57,840 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 1: novel at the time about a uspaper advice columnist who 305 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: was get this, Caroline a dude that was hilarious but 306 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: also kind of sad. Now, going back across the ocean 307 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,639 Speaker 1: to where we first started, this is going on in 308 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: the UK too, but they weren't called sob sisters. They 309 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: were called agony ants, which I think, I don't know 310 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,800 Speaker 1: that sounds to me, that sounds awful, Yes it does. 311 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:23,199 Speaker 1: I just pictured them like there's much gnashing of teeth 312 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: and tearing of hair. Well there were, I mean in 313 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: in British papers at the time. There was a column 314 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: on the front page of every edition which was the 315 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: problem Page, and people loved it and it turned into 316 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: the advice column where these women, the agony ants, would 317 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 1: would write about it. And maybe British listeners can fill 318 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:45,679 Speaker 1: us in on this because it does seem like a 319 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: very negative nickname. I think they still use it though. Yeah, 320 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,639 Speaker 1: the United States was simply taking a queue from Britain 321 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways with advice columns, because for instance, 322 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,120 Speaker 1: this is coming from Never Kissed a Man in a Canoe. 323 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: Words of Wisdom from the Golden Age of Agony Ants 324 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: by Tanneth Carrie, who writes that by the seventeen forties, 325 00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: the popularity of Mrs Eliza Haywood, who was a romantic 326 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: novelist and editor of The Female Spectator, and Francis Moore, 327 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 1: who was editor of the Old Maid magazine, which Caroline, 328 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 1: I think you and I should really revive establish the 329 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:28,199 Speaker 1: tradition of advice columns as a primarily female preserve. So 330 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: this was already happening over there. And Carrie says that 331 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: the Golden Age of the agony Ants and the problem 332 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 1: pages starts in the mid to late nineteenth century, which 333 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 1: was coinciding with rising literacy rates and popular journalism. To 334 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: see these two things happening in tandem, right, So at 335 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: the same time that Dorothy Dix is over there getting 336 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 1: really popular with all of her writing in New Orleans, 337 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:53,560 Speaker 1: this stuff is going on in England, and you know, 338 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:57,320 Speaker 1: speaking of Dorothy Dicks through like as part of the 339 00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: framework of her time, you know, the time in when 340 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 1: she was writing, she did in her own way campaign 341 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: through her columns for women's education and right to employment. 342 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,359 Speaker 1: You know, she herself was not in a very happy marriage, 343 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: but she still believed in traditional values and all of 344 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: these things, and so she used her column to advocate 345 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:19,119 Speaker 1: for the proposed nineteenth Amendment and for women's right to 346 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:22,200 Speaker 1: go work outside the home support the family. Yeah, even 347 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 1: though at the time she was in favor of the 348 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: institution of marriage, she was very frank about her own 349 00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: marriage and kind of how she did it because it 350 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: was the thing to do. And there was a column 351 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: that she published called the Ordinary Women, and it reminded 352 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: me a lot of bettyfor Dan's feminine mystique, because while 353 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: she wasn't saying drop your brooms and get out of 354 00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: the house, women, she was saying that there needed to 355 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:53,320 Speaker 1: be greater recognition of the value of women's work, which 356 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: was a pretty powerful statement at the time. And even 357 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: though in the women magazines, the Victorian era women's magazines, 358 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: it might not seem so revolutionary telling women how to 359 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 1: set tables and ignore their kids and please their husbands 360 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: and all of that. In more mainstream publication, the agony 361 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: aunts and uncles and the advice calumnists in the US 362 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 1: were often liberal voices like Dicks, especially in terms of 363 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: women's role. So even though their voices were relegated often 364 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: to women's pages, and we might think of advice columns 365 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: as these silly little things, you know, that we kind 366 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: of read for entertainment, the voice of these women was 367 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: nevertheless very powerful at the time. Write a history of 368 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,040 Speaker 1: these advice columns, and the Daily Mail from February talks 369 00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: about how a lot of these more modern columns ended 370 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,360 Speaker 1: the silence, so to speak. It really brought ordinary women's 371 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: problems and secrets into the open, helping readers know that 372 00:22:56,680 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: they weren't alone. So not only are they dealing with 373 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,199 Speaker 1: problems that maybe you wouldn't hear talked about on the 374 00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 1: street in public, you know, it's it's really bringing to 375 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 1: the forefront. Oh, other people are dealing with this too. 376 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: This isn't just a shameful secret that I have to 377 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: deal with. Right, Even in those Victorian problem pages, as 378 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: Tanneth Carey writes about um, a lot of the questions 379 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 1: were full of women seeking to decipher romantic signals for 380 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: men because they couldn't openly talk to them at the time. 381 00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: And then looking at Dorothy Dix's career, her column spans 382 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,200 Speaker 1: fifty years worth of social changes. So in the beginning 383 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,840 Speaker 1: of her column, women are writing and asking whether or 384 00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,119 Speaker 1: not she should marry this man who you know is 385 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 1: a good fit, you know, and she's that's what she 386 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 1: should do, right, Whereas by the end of it, women 387 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 1: are asking and saying, is it okay if I like 388 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 1: go off on a romantic weekend with this duty's not 389 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,199 Speaker 1: my husband, but that'd be cool, right, and her just 390 00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: being like, well, go ahead, go ahead. Uh yeah. It 391 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: really stopped being about morality and the advice columnist, uh, 392 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: dictating morals and all that stuff. Because in the nineteen seventies, 393 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: as we're moving along, you know, societies moving along in 394 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 1: their views of feminine feminism and sexuality, there was more 395 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: of like a sympathetic tone, not like you should do 396 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 1: this because it's right for society. It was more like, Okay, 397 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: here's what you're dealing with, let's talk about it. And 398 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 1: so these advice columnists started tackling the big issues of sex, 399 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 1: birth control, abortion, all these things there were otherwise delicate topics. Yeah, 400 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,400 Speaker 1: you can see how and advice columns. The personal is 401 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,879 Speaker 1: becoming political talking about sex, birth control, abortion, rape aging. 402 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: I believe it was Marjorie Proofs, one of the leading 403 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: agony ants over in Britain, and perhaps our British listeners 404 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: can correct me, but she, for instance, in the nineteen 405 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: seventies publicly advocated for um rape victims to be treated 406 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: a lot better if they were going into, say, the 407 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: police department to report a crime UM and in hospitals 408 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,159 Speaker 1: actually set up rape suites where they could have the 409 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: rape kids carried out in more comfortable surroundings. UM. Also 410 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: Peggy Makins, who is another popular agony and talked about 411 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,239 Speaker 1: how in the nineteen fifties when she started out, she 412 00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: could not use the word bottom, even if it referred 413 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: to something innocent, right, as in the bottom of the 414 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 1: drawer contains papers, because of course papers and drawers comes 415 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: up a lot and advice. But she, yeah, she couldn't 416 00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 1: use bottom at all. But then you know, twenty years 417 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: later she's talking about sex and everything starts to really 418 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 1: open up. And of course, by the nineteen seventies and eighties, 419 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: advice columns are not just in newspapers. You have sex 420 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: columns popping up in places like penthouse, um, and you know, 421 00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,879 Speaker 1: people are it is opening up dialogues. Yeah, because the 422 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 1: advice column. You know, as we've touched on, the advice 423 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: column has traditionally been kind of a safe space. It's anonymous, 424 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: you're writing to somebody with you know, an illiterate, alliterative name. 425 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: Uh So it's it's it's safer you can write in 426 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:26,119 Speaker 1: something that's that's more sensitive and Okay, So hundreds of 427 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: years ago that might have been a question of politics 428 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,719 Speaker 1: or horse poop, but now moving forward, it's more like, okay, no, no, 429 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: let's let's get real. Let's talk about sex, abortion, politics, 430 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: all these things. And throughout all of this time, it's 431 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:48,520 Speaker 1: facilitating dialogue because a you're finding out that and this 432 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,080 Speaker 1: is something that we hear from listeners of the podcast 433 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: as well, you're finding out that, oh, other people are 434 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,200 Speaker 1: wondering these exact same things that I am. So there's 435 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: a sense of community, there's a sense of validate, and 436 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: especially if we're talking about women's issues in quotes and uh, 437 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: there's a sense that it is okay to to think 438 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: about and to talk about what might seem taboo and 439 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,240 Speaker 1: break down those barriers in that way. So, so where 440 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:21,280 Speaker 1: does that leave us with? Part one of advice Columns 441 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: talked about the women, the female crusaders who came in 442 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: and and how men started it because because they were 443 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: having affairs, they were too proper to be able to 444 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 1: talk about their affairs in public. And then then women 445 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:41,680 Speaker 1: come in. So next up in our part two of 446 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: advice Columns, we get more modern, because what what's the 447 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: world to do now we have the Internet. It's fascinating 448 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 1: a that we have more advice columns, I would argue 449 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: than ever before. Um, but there was We got to 450 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: talk about a pair of sisters, twin sisters who really 451 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: change things advice wise in the United States. So tune 452 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: in for that. It's coming up next on stuff Mom 453 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: never told you. But in the meantime, send us your 454 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: letters on advice columns or if you would like to 455 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: ask advice from us, will be your stand in agony ants. Sure, Mom, 456 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: stuff a Discovery dot com is where you can send 457 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 1: your emails. Well, we've got a couple of letters here 458 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: in response to our vaginal plastic Vaginal Rejuvenation Designer Vagina episode, 459 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: and these two are intentionally from male listeners because we 460 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: have heard a lot from the fellows on this episode, 461 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: and it's all it's pretty it's pretty good stuff women 462 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: in terms of guys above across the board saying no, 463 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: don't please, don't do that. But anyway, Nathan has a 464 00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: little bit of a different perspective on this. He writes, 465 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: as usual, I enjoyed your latest podcast. It brought up 466 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,320 Speaker 1: a few moments of introspection, which I think is always beneficial. 467 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: One of those moments was when I remembered something from 468 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 1: the bowels of the Internet called a gland zectomy. I 469 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 1: realized that circumcision is effectively a hoodectomy, referring to clitteral 470 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: potectomy on a mail personal info, I'm a male who 471 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: is circumcised. I had my first son circumcised. I didn't 472 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: have my second son circumcised. The part of this that 473 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: is weird to me is the turmoil involved in that 474 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: decision making. I had no problem with my first son 475 00:29:32,880 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: being circumcised, but with my second I feel that I 476 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: struggle for weeks over it. Why is it totally acceptable 477 00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 1: to have this cosmetic surgery done to a newborn baby, 478 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,240 Speaker 1: but not go against the norm. In the media, the 479 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,960 Speaker 1: only scandal around circumcision appears to be the possibility of 480 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: a rabbi with herpes using his mouth to clean the wound. Yikes. 481 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,160 Speaker 1: So this is what I ask. Should we be surprised 482 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 1: women and girls are doing something about their irrational fear 483 00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: of a deformed vagina when it is millennia old behavior 484 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:07,960 Speaker 1: to say a penis is shaped wrong. I am going 485 00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: to respond briefly to that by saying that cosmetic surgery 486 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,600 Speaker 1: for laby of plassy and vaginal rejuvenation, tightening of the 487 00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: vagina largely for the sexual pleasure of another person, is 488 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: vastly different from male circumcision. I know that that could 489 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: raise some controversy among some people, because there are a 490 00:30:30,200 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: lot of folks these days saying that male circumcision just 491 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: as wrong as female circumcision. But and yes, there are 492 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:46,120 Speaker 1: nerve endings in the foreskin that that do reduce sexual 493 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: pleasure in a way. But a hood ectomy um is 494 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: far different physically than a clipping of the foreskin, and 495 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: I think that it syndicative. The rise of vaginal rejuvenation 496 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:10,320 Speaker 1: is indicative of a far different problem than something that 497 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:17,120 Speaker 1: grew out of cleanliness standards in a religion and not 498 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 1: just in Judaism. Yeah, I totally agree with you. So 499 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,560 Speaker 1: I think we're in apples and orange is territory. That's 500 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: all I'll say about it now. I'd be curiously here 501 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 1: though from other listeners about that is comparing vagin plasty 502 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: to male circumcision accurate at all moment A two cents Well. 503 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: Sean wanted to add his two cents also to the 504 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,720 Speaker 1: designer vagina discussion. He says that, as someone who does 505 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: not have a vagina of his very own, I can 506 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: say that the vast majority of men are happy to 507 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: be in the vicinity of a friendly vagina. No matter 508 00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:53,160 Speaker 1: how it looks. That man should say hooray of vagina, 509 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 1: pleased to meet you. If that man says you have 510 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: a strange looking vagina, he should be immediately deprived of 511 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,760 Speaker 1: that vagina interaction and be made to be on his 512 00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: best behavior during future vagina interactions. Overall, genitalia looks strange, 513 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: both male and female. Any attempt to make them cute 514 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 1: or pretty is going to end an unnecessary medical procedures. 515 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,360 Speaker 1: And that just made me think of a penis with 516 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: a tiny top hat on it. Hey, it's the death 517 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,640 Speaker 1: Dancing testicles. So thank you Sean for that wonderful image 518 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: in my head, and to all of you who have 519 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,280 Speaker 1: written into mom stuff at discovery dot com. Of course 520 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: you can send us a note on Facebook like asair. 521 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: While you're at it, you can tweet us at Mom's 522 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast, and if you are a tumbler er or 523 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: on there as well, Stuff Mom Never told You dot 524 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 1: tumbler dot com. And of course, as always, if you 525 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,600 Speaker 1: want to get smarter this week, you should head to 526 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: our website, it's how stuff Works dot com. For more 527 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, visit how stuff 528 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: works dot com