Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,
Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,
Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true
Speaker 2: crime all the time.
Speaker 3: Listen.
Speaker 2: If you have the Sunday night blues like me, join
Speaker 2: in because I am so glad we're together tonight. Please
Speaker 2: call us anytime eight eight eight three one crime because
Speaker 2: we have a stacked night of headlines. It's June twenty ninth,
Speaker 2: and listen as we come on the news tonight. We're
Speaker 2: following a breaking story out of Quardlaine, Idaho, where apparently
Speaker 2: law enforcement is having some sniper fire go down. Two
Speaker 2: lives have been lost already, God willing there are no more.
Speaker 2: But we will be following that very closely throughout the
Speaker 2: next few hours. And if you have something to share,
Speaker 2: please do so by reaching out real time. Also, we
Speaker 2: have Joseph Scott Morgan, the host of Body Bags, here
Speaker 2: with us again. He's going to be breaking down all
Speaker 2: things forensics in the Long Island serial murder case. We're
Speaker 2: going to be really dissecting the grounds with which the
Speaker 2: victims were found and then also later in the.
Speaker 3: Show Diddy Diddy, Diddy Diddy.
Speaker 2: Closing arguments happened on Friday, and the defense rests tomorrow.
Speaker 2: The jury will actually have Diddy's fate in their hands.
Speaker 2: And I gotta be honest, I am very divided about
Speaker 2: how this is gonna go. So again, if you have
Speaker 2: an opinion, guilty or not guilty, we want to hear
Speaker 2: from you. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and I head of KT Studios,
Speaker 2: where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I
Speaker 2: get to do that every day with Courtney Armstrong and
Speaker 2: Body Moven. So body fill us in on where we
Speaker 2: are with Diddy right now?
Speaker 4: Closing arguments Finally, doesn't it seem like it's been forever?
Speaker 3: It had however, but it's also seemed really brief.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's been what you know, thirty days, but
Speaker 2: the defense just stopping and sharing nothing is also curious,
Speaker 2: very curious.
Speaker 4: Well, Closing arguments concluded in the Diddy Combs trial, with
Speaker 4: the defense focusing on really kind of like five basic compartments, Okay,
Speaker 4: different things, how Diddy's sex life was unconventional but not illegal, right.
Speaker 4: They denied any organized effort. They insisted that his accusers
Speaker 4: consent to all the sexual encounters, and they questioned the
Speaker 4: truthfulness and motives of the accusers. They also urged the
Speaker 4: jury to ignore all the emotion and tabloid headlines and
Speaker 4: focus on the lack of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 3: Right, So this is again, you have to be.
Speaker 4: One hundred percent not in ninety nine one hundred percent convinced.
Speaker 3: That he's guilty in order to check that guilty box.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: The prosecution did do a short rebuttle afterwards. So that's
Speaker 3: basically what's going on.
Speaker 4: And Monday we'll hear hopefully maybe something from maybe we'll
Speaker 4: get some questions from the jury. I don't know.
Speaker 2: And listen and I will say both the prosecution, which
Speaker 2: is an all female led you know, legal team of greatness,
Speaker 2: did a great job. And the defense, you know, by
Speaker 2: the way, you get what you pay for, they too
Speaker 2: did an amazing job, right, Like they really came to
Speaker 2: play and they called it, you know, his ditty's lawyer
Speaker 2: said it was the tale of tailor two trials, right,
Speaker 2: you know, like there's a case that's the glorified media
Speaker 2: version and then there's this other case that's this consenting adults.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's kinky behavior behind closed doors, but look,
Speaker 2: is that a crime? And you know you said the
Speaker 2: perfect word consented. They consented. Is that the same as
Speaker 2: consenting the entire time? You know, Courtney, I see you like,
Speaker 2: you know, brushing up there, go ahead.
Speaker 5: Because the prosecution it's not just about Ditty's quirky sex life.
Speaker 5: It is about kidnapping and bribery and sex trafficking, and
Speaker 5: that is what the prosecution alleges went on for twenty years.
Speaker 2: And by the way, like even he agrees with that,
Speaker 2: you know, even his legal team acknowledge, is like, look,
Speaker 2: this was not.
Speaker 3: Necessarily a great look.
Speaker 2: Yes, perhaps he mistreated women, Okay, fine, perhaps he was
Speaker 2: occasionally violent, Okay, yes, But again, you know, they're also
Speaker 2: making it an assessment that this has been a big
Speaker 2: money grab. And by the way, just as we're talking
Speaker 2: about it, Cassie Ventura, who's the ex girlfriend of Ditty
Speaker 2: of ten years, who was on the stand for multiple
Speaker 2: days in her ninth month of pregnancy, you know, they're
Speaker 2: saying this is just like a money grab for her.
Speaker 2: She already got the money grab. She had twenty million
Speaker 2: for she got I think even thirty million. Well she
Speaker 2: asks for thirty why she got the money?
Speaker 3: Why not go away?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 3: Why would you have to still speak up? Right?
Speaker 2: So it's not a money grab. That money was already grabbed.
Speaker 2: And you know, listen, well earned and well deserved. In
Speaker 2: my humble opinion, not that that matters, but I think
Speaker 2: it's sort of this he said, she said, And then
Speaker 2: you know, Diddy says again, I'm so curious because again
Speaker 2: here in the studio it's really divided about the guilty,
Speaker 2: n guilty.
Speaker 3: Curious where you guys are landing today guilty?
Speaker 4: Oh well, listen, I'm pretty I feel pretty compelled by
Speaker 4: the witness testimony. I thought Jane was compelling. I thought
Speaker 4: Kid Cutty was compelling, and to the root of it all,
Speaker 4: I thought Cassie was very compelling. Yeah, I think it
Speaker 4: showed a history and basically a pattern, right of organized
Speaker 4: efforts to commit crimes.
Speaker 3: I mean, that's where you go. I think he's guilty bribery,
Speaker 3: absolutely guilty.
Speaker 5: And I do think that the prosecution has done a
Speaker 5: really beautiful case, especially in their closing arguments, how they
Speaker 5: laid everything out point by point. Take the bribery for one,
Speaker 5: that involves as we all remember that horrible video of
Speaker 5: Ditty abusing Cassie Venture in the hallway holding his towel. Okay,
Speaker 5: that happened. The charge is bribery because then one hundred
Speaker 5: thousand dollars was given to people to squash that and
Speaker 5: make sure nobody ever sudden it never saw the light
Speaker 5: of day, which ultimately happened. But it's the bribery and
Speaker 5: the acknowledgment that what he did was wrong and he
Speaker 5: could that makes him culpable to cover up.
Speaker 4: And the defense in the closing argument said it was
Speaker 4: just for bad publicity, argued that Combs paid the hotel
Speaker 4: guard in twenty sixteen to avoid bad publicity, not to
Speaker 4: block a police probe. So they addressed that in their
Speaker 4: closing arguments. They addressed each criticis like each charge in
Speaker 4: the closing arguments, and I said, I thought.
Speaker 3: They did a great job.
Speaker 2: But you know, I'm diddy, you know, and I have
Speaker 2: ten of the greatest lawyers of all time defending me. Look,
Speaker 2: they did a fantastic job, for sure. He's showing a
Speaker 2: real like face of strength also apparently in the courtroom.
Speaker 2: But at its core, do we believe that this guy
Speaker 2: should get off? I mean, because it's becoming an all
Speaker 2: or nothing at this point, he could walk, and my
Speaker 2: fear would be that victims everywhere are going to be
Speaker 2: less and less.
Speaker 3: Likely to speak up. Well, I spoke up. What do
Speaker 3: you guys think? I think guilty? What do you guys think? Oh? Oh, guilty, guilty.
Speaker 4: No jury's going to say guilty. Oh gosh, that's what
Speaker 4: I'm saying. What I'm saying, the jury's going to say
Speaker 4: he's guilty.
Speaker 3: I think so. I do think so. I do think
Speaker 3: so too. I want to believe.
Speaker 2: So listen, we've been down the rabbit hole and have
Speaker 2: been listening and watching everything imaginable and apparently, during you know,
Speaker 2: the defense's closing argument, that jurors were nodding, apparently allegedly,
Speaker 2: and they seemed very you know, at ease in that
Speaker 2: Diddy and the judge. Everything was like even the defense attorney,
Speaker 2: you know, was making some giggles and jokes with the juror.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it seems like it landed very positively.
Speaker 2: But again, did they know something that we don't.
Speaker 4: That's a good question because he is that defense not
Speaker 4: putting on an argument is fishy to me.
Speaker 3: And was he overcharged? I don't know.
Speaker 4: I think I think Rico might have been going too far,
Speaker 4: but I do think he's guilty of it.
Speaker 5: So many questions. We want to hear what you are thinking.
Speaker 5: Eighty eight three one crime. So give us a call,
Speaker 5: join our conversation or hit us on the talkbacks on
Speaker 5: the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3: And we have a talkback right now.
Speaker 6: Hi, my name is Sarah.
Speaker 7: And in reference to the Diddy case, does his smugnus
Speaker 7: and the quote strategic plan from the defense to not
Speaker 7: have any witnesses kind of seems suspicious to anyone else,
Speaker 7: Like he knows he's getting off, possibly because he may
Speaker 7: have paid somebody to get off already, and he just
Speaker 7: knows that that's what's going to happen. I know that's
Speaker 7: down a conspiracy hole, but I can't help but to
Speaker 7: think that way.
Speaker 4: I just said that. Yeah, I mean, I don't think
Speaker 4: it's a conspiracy. I don't think that he's in on anything.
Speaker 4: I don't think he you know, there's like money under
Speaker 4: the table or anything like that. I think he's just
Speaker 4: gotten away with everything his entire life and doesn't expect
Speaker 4: any repercussions for his bad behavior.
Speaker 2: Totally fair and by the way. You know, I Miko,
Speaker 2: my two cents would be too. And I know being
Speaker 2: sequesters as jurors is a really big deal.
Speaker 3: A It's crazy expensive. Think about it.
Speaker 2: Your thirty days, you're in a hotel, you have no phones,
Speaker 2: you're away from your job. I don't wish that on anyone,
Speaker 2: or any citizen for that matter. However, in a reco
Speaker 2: case where people are accusing someone of taking bribes and
Speaker 2: paying people off and intruding the system, if you will,
Speaker 2: only in that case do I think being sequestered could
Speaker 2: be meaningful. I'm not suggesting at all that the jurors
Speaker 2: have not done an extraordinary job and haven't been paying
Speaker 2: attention and of course not paying attention to anything in
Speaker 2: the media.
Speaker 3: That is the rule.
Speaker 2: However, it's hard to imagine that no one has said
Speaker 2: anything to anyone. And I also would have to wonder
Speaker 2: just to go down this like, you know, rabbit hole
Speaker 2: of conspiracies. Is it interesting that he hasn't brought one witness?
Speaker 2: Is that because that one witness could be a rabbit
Speaker 2: hole with celebrities and in people that he has to
Speaker 2: zip it up for or think about that. Here's another
Speaker 2: theory that I read, not mine But another theory is
Speaker 2: it possible that Diddy turned on state's evidence and as
Speaker 2: a result, he knows he may walk in exchange for
Speaker 2: someone bigger, meaning the rico is under a rico charge
Speaker 2: of maybe a larger celebrity who may have been at play,
Speaker 2: or even a larger celebrity than that that may have
Speaker 2: been at play.
Speaker 4: So is because then they would never be able to
Speaker 4: charge him again with this if because he got off.
Speaker 3: Or if he was given immunity.
Speaker 4: If he was given immunity, they would dismiss the charges
Speaker 4: and he wouldn't he would be there would be no jury,
Speaker 4: there would be he would be you know what I mean,
Speaker 4: like there wouldn't they wouldn't go through with it.
Speaker 3: So is that how it works.
Speaker 2: So, in the eleventh hour, right before the defense was
Speaker 2: about to do closing arguments, if Diddy, for example, and
Speaker 2: again I'm going on a limb here. If you have
Speaker 2: an opinion, please join us eight eight eight three one crime.
Speaker 2: This is not my even personal opinion. This is an
Speaker 2: opinion of others that I've read, which you know got
Speaker 2: in my head. So imagine in the aven or did
Speaker 2: he is like I'm not doing jail time from this
Speaker 2: point forward, I've had enough, I then turn on somebody else,
Speaker 2: and therefore I get immunity.
Speaker 3: Therefore, I have this very cocky.
Speaker 2: Air quotes, arrogant per our talkback that is saying, I
Speaker 2: know I'm going home in two weeks, if not sooner,
Speaker 2: and somebody else might take the hit that I've been
Speaker 2: covering for this whole time.
Speaker 3: Is that even possible?
Speaker 4: I don't think so, But maybe this is something that
Speaker 4: we can ask our buddy, Jarrett Farantino, because I know
Speaker 4: I'm lawyer.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just I don't think.
Speaker 4: I think that they would pull the charges and he
Speaker 4: would get like he wouldn't get acquitted because then if
Speaker 4: he pulled, if he's like, well ha ha, I just
Speaker 4: I was just joking around, like I you know, I
Speaker 4: don't have anybody, They can't. They would never be able
Speaker 4: to charge him again. Then he just is free as
Speaker 4: a bird.
Speaker 5: I think the defense putting up no witnesses is as
Speaker 5: simple as really solid legal advice because of what could
Speaker 5: happen to everyone under cross examination.
Speaker 3: I agree.
Speaker 5: I mean everyone who is up there think about the
Speaker 5: job that the defense did on cross They basically put
Speaker 5: their entire case forth in that way. They don't want
Speaker 5: to give the prosecution a second bite at the apple.
Speaker 2: And by the way, I guess the lead here is like,
Speaker 2: what's the takeaway? What are we taking from this? I
Speaker 2: guess the takeaway is like your nothing comes for free.
Speaker 2: You know, if someone's paying your bills and they don't
Speaker 2: want to hear from you, you're stuck. And I don't
Speaker 2: want that to be the case, because we hear a
Speaker 2: lot about consented and money and all the things that
Speaker 2: doesn't wash away abuse Listen.
Speaker 5: Coming up, we have forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan with us.
Speaker 5: We're going to be talking about the Long Island serial killer.
Speaker 5: Then we have a case out of Atlanta's Piedmont Park
Speaker 5: and do not forget to call us eight a eighty
Speaker 5: three on crime True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio talk in
Speaker 2: True Crime all the Time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I
Speaker 2: head of KT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts
Speaker 2: and documentaries and I get to do that every day
Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and body Moven and also soon to
Speaker 2: be Joseph Scott Morgan, host of the hit podcast Body Bags.
Speaker 2: He's going to be breaking down a ton of forensics
Speaker 2: for us, specifically in the Long Island serial killer case
Speaker 2: as well as this very disturbing case coming out from Atlanta.
Speaker 2: You know, we're following closely the new developments happening in Quardlaine,
Speaker 2: Idaho active shooter. There's a sniper and law enforcement are
Speaker 2: praying that there are not more casualties, So we'll be
Speaker 2: monitoring that throughout the show. And then Diddy, of course,
Speaker 2: closing arguments ended on Friday, and the jury could hit
Speaker 2: it tomorrow and we could have a verdict in the
Speaker 2: next coming days.
Speaker 3: Think about it. Fourth of July is upon us. The
Speaker 3: courts close.
Speaker 2: This is like three days and if you're a juror,
Speaker 2: do you you think to yourself, I have three days
Speaker 2: to make a decision and then I can be with
Speaker 2: my family and no more jury duty, or do you
Speaker 2: you know, think about it for a couple of days,
Speaker 2: knowing that there's a holiday, and then you have to
Speaker 2: come back. Who knows, but it does seem as though
Speaker 2: we're up against a clock, and this case has been
Speaker 2: on our minds twenty four to seven, so it's pretty
Speaker 2: amazing that it's just around the bend and we're getting
Speaker 2: really mixed signals on what that could look like. So
Speaker 2: we also are asking to hear from you. Listen, this
Speaker 2: is your time to weigh in eight eight eight three
Speaker 2: to one crime. Or if you just want to leave
Speaker 2: a message, you can download your iHeart app, press the
Speaker 2: right hand corner and just leave a message and boom.
Speaker 2: You can join us on the show and just give
Speaker 2: your opinion. In fact, we have a talkback right now.
Speaker 6: He did he those couple of charges they dropped? Does
Speaker 6: that mean that if he is found innocent of the
Speaker 6: other stuff, will they be able to recharge him with
Speaker 6: the ones that they dropped later on if they can
Speaker 6: pile more evidence against him.
Speaker 3: Great question, great ut question. I don't know. I want
Speaker 3: to say that if they drop, if they drop.
Speaker 4: Things or not, they're not going to be in the
Speaker 4: charging document and therefore their rechargeable. But they would probably
Speaker 4: be done at the state level, right because they would
Speaker 4: only be like two things, and those two things would
Speaker 4: not be RICO right, so there would be separate charges
Speaker 4: at stay I listen, I'm not a lawyer, so you know,
Speaker 4: take it pretty close.
Speaker 3: But I think pretty close.
Speaker 2: If I was meeting a lawyer and my brother wasn't available,
Speaker 2: you'd be next on the list. Oh you know, all
Speaker 2: that to be said, listen, is that perhaps strategy why
Speaker 2: the you know, prosecution slimmed down the charges aiding and
Speaker 2: embedding the possible the intent of you know, they did
Speaker 2: they streamlined this, which got a lot of talkback of like,
Speaker 2: oh my goodness, it must mean that they don't have
Speaker 2: a case or does that mean they have the option
Speaker 2: to still charge of that part at a later date?
Speaker 3: Courtney, go ahead.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: My understanding is that as long as the files were
Speaker 5: dropped without prejudice, then they can be refiled, assuming the
Speaker 5: statute of limitations hasn't been passed and there is sufficient evidence,
Speaker 5: and if it's with prejudice, they cannot be refiled.
Speaker 3: That's my understanding.
Speaker 5: Hopefully we can get an attorney in to confirm.
Speaker 3: Because I just don't know that it would be done
Speaker 3: in federal court.
Speaker 2: Fair but still court is court right and for sure,
Speaker 2: by the way, speaking of court, Courtney, that's a really
Speaker 2: interesting point. So is that possible if they slim down
Speaker 2: the charges? Therefore, those charges may still apply at a
Speaker 2: later date should he be found not guilty. And my
Speaker 2: other question would be should he found be found not guilty,
Speaker 2: does he just go home? Yeah, yep, Wow, I know, silence,
Speaker 2: what's the one thing he said on radio?
Speaker 3: But we're all sort of taken by that.
Speaker 5: He'll walk to two places, He'll walk home or you know,
Speaker 5: go to two places home or back to where he's
Speaker 5: being held.
Speaker 3: Wow, right, I.
Speaker 4: Mean yeah, right, that, I mean, there's nothing. If he's
Speaker 4: found guilty or not guilty of all charges, go home.
Speaker 4: If he's found guilty of one though of like the
Speaker 4: sexual trafficking, which is I believe a separate charge because
Speaker 4: he's got the RICO and then the sex trafficking, Yeah,
Speaker 4: then he'll go.
Speaker 3: You know, he's going to be Listen, he's going to
Speaker 3: be guilty of one of them. Just last words.
Speaker 2: I honestly don't have a strong feeling on it one
Speaker 2: way or the other. And again my heart is with
Speaker 2: I have, you know, the jurors and that they are,
Speaker 2: you know, sifting through things really carefully. How about these
Speaker 2: recent charges that just popped up with Justin Combs. That's
Speaker 2: you know, Diddy's eldest son, and Justin has now been
Speaker 2: brought up on charges as well, allegedly allegedly, allegedly he
Speaker 2: lured a woman from a woman from Louisiana he met
Speaker 2: on Snapchat. He encouraged her to send some risque photos.
Speaker 2: She did very quickly. He Justin allegedly responded saying, you know,
Speaker 2: please come to LA you can meet my dad, and
Speaker 2: promised her lots of access to career help. Apparently she
Speaker 2: was a you know, a thriving star to be and
Speaker 2: when she arrived in Los Angeles, she was met by
Speaker 2: a gaggle of humans that were wearing masquerade masks. How
Speaker 2: scary in and of itself, and she claims she was
Speaker 2: drugged and raped. And these charges just dropped. Is that scary?
Speaker 2: Does the apple fall far from the tree? Or is
Speaker 2: it just a crazy coincidence that on the eve of
Speaker 2: the time that he may be released, that suddenly Diddy's
Speaker 2: eldest son is also brought up on charges. And by
Speaker 2: the way, Diddy is also said to be a part
Speaker 2: of this raping. Apparently Justin referred to pops end quotes
Speaker 2: and that in her opinion, this anonymous victim assumes that
Speaker 2: was didty himself.
Speaker 3: What do you make of that? I mean the time,
Speaker 3: I mean the timing.
Speaker 5: Could also be that this that this Jane Doe saw
Speaker 5: that the trial was coming on and perhaps that gave
Speaker 5: her some courage, if that's the correct word, to file.
Speaker 3: Her own charges, right. I don't know, just a thought,
Speaker 3: but it has uit me a very good point. What da,
Speaker 3: what are the exact charges that he's being charged with
Speaker 3: all kinds?
Speaker 2: And by the way, interestingly enough, just aside from that,
Speaker 2: So Justin's the eldest, and he's been in court, We've
Speaker 2: seen him. You know, he's very devoted to his father.
Speaker 2: The next up in line is Christian, and Christian is
Speaker 2: the birth child of Diddy and his ex now deceased
Speaker 2: Kim Porter. And Christian was also brought up on charges
Speaker 2: back in April of twenty twenty four for allegedly sexually
Speaker 2: assaulting a person on a yacht that they were partying on.
Speaker 2: She was like one of the stewardesses on this boat.
Speaker 2: And those charges have kind of happened in the background.
Speaker 2: So that's a lot of Diddy men being brought up
Speaker 2: on charges.
Speaker 4: You're listening to True Crime tonight where we talk true
Speaker 4: crime all the time. I'm body move in and I'm
Speaker 4: here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we're talking
Speaker 4: about all things Diddy. If you want to weigh in
Speaker 4: with your thoughts. Give us a call at eight eight
Speaker 4: eight thirty one crime, or use the iHeartRadio app and
Speaker 4: send us a talk back message. Stephanie, you seem to
Speaker 4: really kind of have your finger on the pulse of this.
Speaker 4: Do we know if these are criminal charges or criminal
Speaker 4: charging with suit?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 2: So they all charge charge that are being pursued, you know, Listen,
Speaker 2: obviously no one's been arrested. Maybe the timing is by
Speaker 2: some said to be suspicious or by others said to
Speaker 2: be perfect timing. Is this just a world that had
Speaker 2: very loose boundaries and those boundaries are now not okay?
Speaker 2: And the more we talk about it, perhaps victims are
Speaker 2: realizing that that wasn't okay. And to Courtney's earlier point,
Speaker 2: maybe they're getting the courage right. Or is this, you know,
Speaker 2: I meetiate a blast. I obviously I don't know the answer,
Speaker 2: but I do find it all super interesting and I'm
Speaker 2: so glad we get to talk about it.
Speaker 5: So body, here's the information I have on what was
Speaker 5: what is alleged? So the suit was filed, not just against.
Speaker 3: The suit was filed. Yeah, so it's a civil suit.
Speaker 5: Let's see see see what I'm saying, right, there's the
Speaker 5: cops it was. I think you might be right that
Speaker 5: it was civil. Let me, we'll need to check back.
Speaker 2: Discussion on that is a real because civil would mean money,
Speaker 2: right and criminal would mean jail time.
Speaker 3: Right. So what's what's going on here? Alleged?
Speaker 5: So it's against Justin also Sean Combs and the business
Speaker 5: Combs Enterprises and bad Boy Entertainment, so that who who's
Speaker 5: The suit was filed against a civil suit. It claims
Speaker 5: sexual assault and battery, gender violence, and negligent supervision.
Speaker 3: Okay yep.
Speaker 5: And the lawsuit demands a jury trial and payment of damages,
Speaker 5: including for quote future and past lost earnings.
Speaker 3: It's a tough one.
Speaker 4: Courtney would pasties was civil initially m hm, So we'll
Speaker 4: have to keep an eye on it.
Speaker 3: What do I think?
Speaker 5: I think this sounds the details that have been given
Speaker 5: out seem incredibly similar to stuff we have heard played
Speaker 5: out in the current trial, just because Justin said pops,
Speaker 5: assuming that is true, I don't know that that's enough
Speaker 5: to embroil Diddy.
Speaker 3: That seems tenuous to me.
Speaker 5: But again, I don't have many details, but I think
Speaker 5: it is a very believable story.
Speaker 4: Of course, I mean, the detail, but with the masks
Speaker 4: and whatnot, the details.
Speaker 3: Are very like.
Speaker 2: Is that a thing I'm picturing eyes wide shut?
Speaker 3: Is that a thing.
Speaker 2: Who's showing up to a Oh, I'm here to be
Speaker 2: discovered as a hip hop star? And I go into
Speaker 2: a room and everyone's wearing masks and they're giving me
Speaker 2: something to drink, which drugs me. And then suddenly I'm
Speaker 2: you know, part of an air quotes Gangbang? Is that
Speaker 2: the scariest thing you've ever heard? Or is that a
Speaker 2: movie that we've watched? I don't know the answer, but again,
Speaker 2: I'm really just, you know, grateful we get to discuss it.
Speaker 4: Well, I am too, and I hope that you all
Speaker 4: stick around because coming up we're going to be talking
Speaker 4: about the Long Island serial killer with the forensics expert
Speaker 4: Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 3: I cannot best.
Speaker 4: In the business a thing, So stick around and we'll
Speaker 4: get into that conversation, and then Joseph is going to
Speaker 4: be diving into the Suzanne Morphew case with us. This
Speaker 4: is a really important case in near and dear to
Speaker 4: my heart, we're going to be breaking down the forensic
Speaker 4: evidence and the prosecution has on her husband Barry Morphew,
Speaker 4: who has just been re arrested, and don't forget give
Speaker 4: us a call at eight thirty one Crime with your
Speaker 4: thoughts on any of tonight's stories. We really want to
Speaker 4: hear from you. We love the interaction. Keep it here,
Speaker 4: True Crime Tonight, stick around.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of course,
Speaker 2: with body Movin, Courtney Armstrong and forensics expert and family
Speaker 2: to the show. Joseph Scott Morgan is here. He's going
Speaker 2: to talk to us about all things the Long Island
Speaker 2: serial killer as well as a real disturbing case in Atlanta. Joseph,
Speaker 2: we cannot get to you fast enough. Welcome, welcome back.
Speaker 2: It's so good to have you here on this Sunday.
Speaker 2: And although on a.
Speaker 3: Very grisly topic, you are a breath of fresh air. Yeah.
Speaker 5: So this is a trigger warning, so just please hear that.
Speaker 5: We're going to discuss some disturbing specifics in the Rex
Speaker 5: Humorman case. Some is of a violent and sexual nature,
Speaker 5: so listener discretion strongly advised. The alleged Long Island serial killer,
Speaker 5: Rex Huerman is alleged to have depositive four his victims
Speaker 5: along a place called Gilgo Beach. It's along Ocean Parkway.
Speaker 5: Two we're in a wooded area. One is in Manorville,
Speaker 5: New York. And he is also suspected to be involved
Speaker 5: in eleven further deaths. Question mark if there's more, but
Speaker 5: that's that is what's alleged right now. And these murders
Speaker 5: happened between nineteen ninety three and two thousand and eleven,
Speaker 5: so he has now been linked to seven of the
Speaker 5: eleven murders. And Joseph, we would love clarity. Tell us
Speaker 5: about the victims. They get lost in the sauce quote Stephanie, who.
Speaker 8: Were the visay to do? Unfortunately, and that's that's always
Speaker 8: the case. Hey, I'm going to give you a big
Speaker 8: reveal right now about myself in my career when when
Speaker 8: I was practicing in Atlanta and New Orleans, I worked
Speaker 8: several series of serial killings. These are all unrelated, they're
Speaker 8: all different, Okay. The one commonality, and people have heard
Speaker 8: this for years and years, So one commonality is that
Speaker 8: every single series I ever worked involved sex workers. There's
Speaker 8: no exception to that, and this is no different in
Speaker 8: that sense, because they are the for in our population.
Speaker 8: I take exception with anybody that dismisses these women because
Speaker 8: they that many of them the end of their room,
Speaker 8: all right, they have no other choice. It's people, you know.
Speaker 8: People will many times say, oh, well, they always had
Speaker 8: a choice. You haven't lived a life of these people
Speaker 8: of living and unfortunately they cross paths with a monster.
Speaker 8: And so with these victims, what we can say is
Speaker 8: that they were very vulnerable. They had this commonality in
Speaker 8: these occupational choices that they made along the way at
Speaker 8: Hureman allegedly saw that and saw that as a way
Speaker 8: to get to them so that he could satisfy this
Speaker 8: urge that he has. And with all of these victoms,
Speaker 8: the best that we can kind of come up with
Speaker 8: is that some kind of arrangement had been made to
Speaker 8: meet and you know, this idea of burner phones comes in.
Speaker 8: But then we come back to what I refer to
Speaker 8: as the hunting ground. The hunting ground is not really
Speaker 8: a hunting ground. It's more like a deposit area. And
Speaker 8: we can learn a lot about a serial perpetrator by
Speaker 8: virtue of this. They swim these areas that they are
Speaker 8: very familiar with, These are the ultimate control freaks. They
Speaker 8: want to be able to control every aspect of this
Speaker 8: life and this process that they're working through, acting out, doing,
Speaker 8: interacting with these fantasies. Most of them have this incredible
Speaker 8: fantasy life. That's why they take possession of many of
Speaker 8: the elements or many items.
Speaker 9: That these people.
Speaker 8: You know, that's another thing that some of these women
Speaker 8: were actually missing things. They were missing things and guess
Speaker 8: what the idea is that you can go back and
Speaker 8: you can take these things if you're a perpetrator and
Speaker 8: live through them. BTK did it. There's a number of
Speaker 8: other ones that have done it. They're trophy takers and
Speaker 8: they're easy to steal from, and not just their things,
Speaker 8: but obviously their wives. And when we think about where
Speaker 8: human comes from this Long Island area and he knows
Speaker 8: this roadway, you know, the one thing that really jumps
Speaker 8: to mind are these four bodies that are found in
Speaker 8: quick succession along the roadway where they're just kind of
Speaker 8: deposited a long the way and they're found in and
Speaker 8: you know what the wild thing about it is the
Speaker 8: very first one is like out of the four, the
Speaker 8: so called Golgol four, it's dumb luck You've got a
Speaker 8: cop that's out there that is actually trying to train
Speaker 8: his dog, and that dog hits on these remains absolutely
Speaker 8: mind So.
Speaker 4: Basically, he's going to put his the bodies the victims, right,
Speaker 4: He's going to put them in an area he's familiar with,
Speaker 4: because the worst thing that could happen is he gets
Speaker 4: lost or you know, he goes down a dead end
Speaker 4: and is trapped somehow, So he's going to be you know,
Speaker 4: these people are going to and I say these people
Speaker 4: by I mean the killer, they're going to put their
Speaker 4: victims somewhere where they're absolutely familiar with.
Speaker 3: Is what you're saying, right Like.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's familiarity, and it's it's something because they want
Speaker 8: to continue to do I don't know, you know, this
Speaker 8: is maybe too exstential out of it. I've also wonder
Speaker 8: are they doing this? Are they doing this in order
Speaker 8: to not be caught? Are they doing this so that
Speaker 8: they can continue doing what they do? You see what
Speaker 8: I'm saying, it's not that they're afraid of being caught,
Speaker 8: it's the fact that they don't want it to come
Speaker 8: to an end because they continue to play this out.
Speaker 8: These four victims, in particularly the.
Speaker 9: Gil go for now.
Speaker 8: There's several women obviously that we're talking about. One other
Speaker 8: interesting thing is that when these women were found, they
Speaker 8: were wrapped in burlap, and this is camouflage burlap.
Speaker 3: It kind of lens into the weeds.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, the burlap kind of blends into the scenery
Speaker 4: there right, because it.
Speaker 8: Does because this this particular type of burlap is camouflage.
Speaker 8: You want to hear something interesting about burlap. Of course,
Speaker 8: burlap is actually associated with the old term called sackcloth,
Speaker 8: which if you ever went to Sunday school, sackcloth and
Speaker 8: ashes their mourning people put sackcloth on. And I've always
Speaker 8: found that interesting about these four particular things. It's like
Speaker 8: it's like the cost of the poor wear sackcloth, and
Speaker 8: he's using this to cover their bodies with and then
Speaker 8: to posit them along this way. It always going to
Speaker 8: chill up my spine relative to this.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's very interesting. I wonder if that has
Speaker 4: any meaning. I wonder if that has any like religious meaning,
Speaker 4: like is are they sacred or.
Speaker 8: I don't know, because not all the bodies were wrapped
Speaker 8: in burlap, but those those four actually were, and of
Speaker 8: course it was camouflage and they were deposited there.
Speaker 4: Of course, you're listening to True Crime Tonight, where we
Speaker 4: talk true crime all the time. I'm body moving here
Speaker 4: with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong, and we are here
Speaker 4: with the wonderful Joseph Scott Morgan, and we are talking
Speaker 4: all things Rex Huerman and the Gilgo Beach murders. If
Speaker 4: you want to weigh in, give us some call at
Speaker 4: eight eight eight thirty one Crime or hit the talkbacks
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3: We would love to hear from you.
Speaker 5: I think it's such an interesting question if it could be,
Speaker 5: you know, some kind of symbolism or something. But also
Speaker 5: my thought is like when I've had my yard redone,
Speaker 5: I feel like there's burr lap underneath that deals with
Speaker 5: the vegetation. So it also would not be an odd
Speaker 5: thing to see.
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, it wouldn't be. But the burlap that he's
Speaker 8: using this is interesting. I was having a discussion with
Speaker 8: someone I can't remember now, but you know, he is
Speaker 8: allegedly an avid an Avid duck hunter, Okay, and I've
Speaker 8: always wondered if he had used to being an Avid
Speaker 8: duck hunter as kind of a cover for all of
Speaker 8: this if he gets caught out in this area. Hey man,
Speaker 8: I'm just going out taking a look where I'm going
Speaker 8: to set up a blind. And he's got the camouflage burlap,
Speaker 8: he's carrying this truck. You know, he can go out
Speaker 8: there and kind of ease into the story about all
Speaker 8: this and you know, talk to the cops. You know,
Speaker 8: I've often thought about that as well. Or was it
Speaker 8: just a matter of convenience. Well, you know, I've got
Speaker 8: this stuff laying around, I'm going to use it. But
Speaker 8: here's the thing about it. Burlap is very porous. So
Speaker 8: if you're wrapping the body in burlap, what's your point
Speaker 8: Because you're not trying to keep blood or biological materials
Speaker 8: off of everything, because it's going to seep through, you know,
Speaker 8: I mean, Corney you had mentioned you see it in landscaping.
Speaker 8: If you pick up a piece of burlap, you'll actually
Speaker 8: have dirt that will actually fall through the bottom of it.
Speaker 8: So it's not really practical if you're trying to blood
Speaker 8: or any other kind of decompositional fluid or anything like this.
Speaker 8: I just other than it's masking.
Speaker 3: Something, I wonder what it means. I'm so curious. So
Speaker 3: we should talk about the individual victims.
Speaker 4: You had mentioned the Gilgo four, and is that Melissa Bartholomey.
Speaker 4: She was found at Gilgo Beach in December of twenty
Speaker 4: ten when an officer was on the training exercise. Right,
Speaker 4: She was found wrapped in burlap. And then two days later,
Speaker 4: Megan Waterman was found in Gilgo Beach wrapped in burlap.
Speaker 4: And then two days after that, Amber Costello was found
Speaker 4: wrapped in burlap, and then two days after that, Maureen.
Speaker 3: Brainerd Barnes was found.
Speaker 4: She was not found wrapped in burlap, but she was
Speaker 4: found bound with the leather belts.
Speaker 2: Right, So, leather belt with a buckle that allegedly ties
Speaker 2: back to the accused, rex Humor Men's head, her initials
Speaker 2: on it, on the buckle, and that allegedly is rex
Speaker 2: Humor Men's grandfather.
Speaker 3: If I'm not mistaken, right, is Joseph? Is that accurate?
Speaker 8: Yeah? Yeah, that is that. There's a familial attachment there,
Speaker 8: and I find that quite interesting that this would you know,
Speaker 8: you know, I don't know about you guys. My grandpa's
Speaker 8: not around me long. If I had a belt that
Speaker 8: was associated with my grandpa, I'm thinking this thing's going
Speaker 8: to be sacred to me. I'm not going to take
Speaker 8: it and just you know, use it in some manner
Speaker 8: without it being significant. Now, I don't know, maybe I'm
Speaker 8: reading too much into it. I don't think you are
Speaker 8: for me, I get you right on. Yeah, it's just
Speaker 8: kind of an odd thing, you know, that that little bit,
Speaker 8: you know.
Speaker 9: Kind of comes in.
Speaker 2: I have a question on that front, too, Joseph. You
Speaker 2: guys know, I'm from the area, so I grew up
Speaker 2: on Long Island, not too too far this will happened,
Speaker 2: you know. Where the bodies were being discovered was in
Speaker 2: Nassau County on Long Island, which is about forty five
Speaker 2: minutes to an hour outside of New York City. I
Speaker 2: grew up a little further out east. But I'm telling you,
Speaker 2: this is a beautiful place where again neighbors know one another.
Speaker 2: It's it's a lovely place.
Speaker 3: To grow up.
Speaker 2: Shout out to Sachem High School. These things, you know,
Speaker 2: literally don't happen there. And the idea that girls were
Speaker 2: being found in burlap bags again and again and again,
Speaker 2: and now we know that there was a potential torture
Speaker 2: chamber allegedly found in this particular house where the accused
Speaker 2: Rex Humerman and his wife and two children lived. Is
Speaker 2: it possible that more than one of these women were
Speaker 2: held at the same time and then disposed of?
Speaker 9: I don't know.
Speaker 8: I think that I think a lot of that goes
Speaker 8: to how rich is his fantasy life was and what
Speaker 8: he had constructed, because you know, it's never it's never
Speaker 8: as simple as I'm just going to do one thing.
Speaker 8: It has to be expanded out from that many times
Speaker 8: for a lot of these folks, and so they're going
Speaker 8: to go very broadly. Did he hold two at a
Speaker 8: tom did he have three at a time?
Speaker 3: We're not done talking about less.
Speaker 4: Give us a call at eighty eight eight thirty one
Speaker 4: Crime Breaking News.
Speaker 2: We have been following this closelyse the top of the hour,
Speaker 2: there's been a sniper really in Quardelaine, Idaho, And we
Speaker 2: initially reported that there were two lost souls and we
Speaker 2: didn't know what was happening next, and now we are
Speaker 2: hearing more.
Speaker 5: Courtney tell us, Yeah, this just out. The International Association
Speaker 5: of Firefighters. They have confirmed in a statement that two
Speaker 5: of its members were killed by this sniper. There is
Speaker 5: another in surgery, and this all relates to several hours ago.
Speaker 5: It was one twenty one Mountain time that firefighters responded
Speaker 5: to a call for a brush fire when they arrived
Speaker 5: a sniper or snipers. I think not everything is incredibly
Speaker 5: clear right now started firing, and again there are also
Speaker 5: unknown outside of those three unknown casualties in this moment,
Speaker 5: So we will continue following. The news is literally coming
Speaker 5: out in bits and pieces, and it's incredibly.
Speaker 3: Horrible, unbelievable.
Speaker 2: And also, we know we were just discussing this earlier,
Speaker 2: and if you miss any of the first hour, catch
Speaker 2: us right after on the podcast. Joseph back to the
Speaker 2: serial killer. I know we were knee deep in it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to hear more about this memorialization of
Speaker 4: the victims.
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, for years, you know, people talk about the
Speaker 8: concept of face covering. Face covering is something that we
Speaker 8: see in homicide cases many times, where if somebody has
Speaker 8: a connection with an individual that they have murdered, they'll
Speaker 8: covered face because they can't bear seeing that person's face,
Speaker 8: even in death. And so you take that and kind
Speaker 8: of expand that a bit, and you begin to think
Speaker 8: about memorialization of the dead, and we can learn a
Speaker 8: lot about killers and how they treat the dead. Sounds
Speaker 8: kind of odd, I know, but how they if they're
Speaker 8: using if they kill an individual and kind of toss
Speaker 8: them like, we'll have what are called dumps where we
Speaker 8: have body dumps where you'll find a person lying in
Speaker 8: a ditch along inside of the road and their body's
Speaker 8: twisted in an odd way. It's not that the perpetrator
Speaker 8: position them that way. Many times, it's because they simply
Speaker 8: wanted to put as much distance as they could between
Speaker 8: them and the body as quickly as possible, and they
Speaker 8: roll them out of the car. That's different than if
Speaker 8: you walk the body back into the woods. You lay
Speaker 8: them out, maybe you cover their face, but rocks or
Speaker 8: sticks or whatever it is. And so you know, you
Speaker 8: go back to the so called Gilga four and you
Speaker 8: see that they're wrapped. But we have other individuals that
Speaker 8: have been found that are treated differently. We've got a
Speaker 8: couple of bodies. We've got one young woman who's found
Speaker 8: literally and I hate to say this, this is terrible,
Speaker 8: but she's found bent back at the knees and she's
Speaker 8: been decapitated. And that's a horrible image. But we have
Speaker 8: to look at that clinically and think about who is
Speaker 8: this the same person doing this? Because this is a
Speaker 8: lot different than wrapping a body up and depositing that
Speaker 8: body on side of the road. Then you have another
Speaker 8: another individual that is found that has been dismembered. Now
Speaker 8: you begin to get into that and you begin to
Speaker 8: think about, you know, how that looks, how it appears.
Speaker 4: You're right about that. Well, later we're going to be
Speaker 4: inviting you to ask questions about any of the cases
Speaker 4: that we've covered tonight. He did he Suzan Morphew Lisk
Speaker 4: Give us a call eight eight eight thirty one crime,
Speaker 4: or use the talkbacks on the iHeart Radio app. Stay
Speaker 4: right here True Crime Tonight.
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lai Decker and
Speaker 2: I head of KAT Studios, where we make true crime
Speaker 2: podcasts and documentaries. And I get to do that with
Speaker 2: true crime producer and host Courtney Armstrong and crime analysts
Speaker 2: and host Body move In and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan.
Speaker 3: You'll also know him from the hit podcast Body Bags.
Speaker 2: We've been talking a lot about the Long Island serial killers,
Speaker 2: so we will continue to do so. Boddy, where should
Speaker 2: we start?
Speaker 4: Well, I kind of want to talk about more about
Speaker 4: the memorialization of the victims. So in the previous hour
Speaker 4: we were talking with Joseph Scott Morgan about the significance
Speaker 4: of how the bodies are left and meaning behind pretty
Speaker 4: much everything, right, and so I kind of Joseph, I
Speaker 4: hate to do this to you, but can you kind
Speaker 4: of go.
Speaker 3: Over this again? Yeah, what is the what is memorialization?
Speaker 3: What does it mean? And what are we talking about here?
Speaker 8: Well? I think probably for most people memorialization would come
Speaker 8: down to the idea of honoring the dat I know
Speaker 8: that sounds really bizarre when you're thinking about a serial killer,
Speaker 8: but how it actually puts the value on the individual
Speaker 8: that has been the victim promisid You know, how much
Speaker 8: value do they assign to that individual? And value sometimes
Speaker 8: is tied up in anything in life. You think about Todd, right,
Speaker 8: how much time did they spend with the body? Did
Speaker 8: these individuals that have the psychothology going on, do they
Speaker 8: find themselves invested enough with this individual to actually clean
Speaker 8: a body. We've had that happen many times, redress the body,
Speaker 8: perhaps take things from the body, and then to take
Speaker 8: the body and almost prepare it in their own way,
Speaker 8: and then they have to select the spot for depositing
Speaker 8: the body. Is their goal to hide the body or
Speaker 8: is their goal to have it kind of sequestered to
Speaker 8: the point where somebody could stumble upon it. Because a
Speaker 8: lot of these people that perpetrate these crimes work on
Speaker 8: the idea of a shock factor. You know, they want
Speaker 8: to shock people that come up and discover the remains.
Speaker 8: Can you imagine walking down the road and you suddenly
Speaker 8: find a decomposing individual vinyl side or this very shocking
Speaker 8: for them, right, And so there's meaning and literally everything
Speaker 8: that they do said this memorialization of the dead. It's
Speaker 8: not like they just drag them off and kind of
Speaker 8: throw them away like rubbish. They prepare the body, that
Speaker 8: wrap the body, and then they deposit the body. In
Speaker 8: this case with go gofore he's allegedly going back to
Speaker 8: the same spot. I mean there we within feet guys,
Speaker 8: think about that, within feet of one another. That takes
Speaker 8: a certain level of hutsbah in order to do that
Speaker 8: courage if you will, I guess, however you define that,
Speaker 8: you know, and to lay them up because this is
Speaker 8: a big risk that he's taking to do that. So
Speaker 8: I think a lot can be read into that was
Speaker 8: he rushed? Do any of these cases give you the
Speaker 8: impression that it was something that was rushed, that you
Speaker 8: know that maybe he was caught or thought he was
Speaker 8: going to be caught so he had to get rid
Speaker 8: of the body really quickly, or did he take his time?
Speaker 8: Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to pair that
Speaker 8: up with the travels of pureman's family perae body. You know,
Speaker 8: where were they on these dates when these individuals last
Speaker 8: were seen. Does that mean he took more time with
Speaker 8: the body and what was done to the body in
Speaker 8: its anti mortem which means pre death state as opposed
Speaker 8: to the post morton state, Because that's another big thing here,
Speaker 8: and from a forensic standpoint, it's going.
Speaker 9: To be invaluable.
Speaker 8: Pay close attention here because we've heard this term come
Speaker 8: up in several lease cases about dismemberment. Dismemberment. In my
Speaker 8: experience working cases like this, the one thing I'm looking
Speaker 8: for are tool marks. What type of instrumentality was utilized
Speaker 8: in order to take a body and literally butcher it.
Speaker 8: As horrific as that is, you have to get past
Speaker 8: it and look at it scientifically and say, are these
Speaker 8: tool marks the same on this body as they are
Speaker 8: on the other body is an individual using a chainsaw,
Speaker 8: a circular saw, a hack saw, carpenter.
Speaker 3: Saw, and Joseph.
Speaker 8: All of this.
Speaker 5: Speaks to pattern I would imagine when trying whether it's
Speaker 5: the tools or similarities. For example, in the Go Go four,
Speaker 5: Melissa Bartholomey, Megan Waterman, Amber Costello, and Marine Brainerd Barnes,
Speaker 5: they were all found within days of each other, and yes,
Speaker 5: three were found wrapped in Verlin. Maureen Brainerd Barnes was
Speaker 5: not found wrapped in burr lap, but was found within
Speaker 5: the same period, but she was found with leather belt
Speaker 5: that potentially allegedly ties back to Humerman.
Speaker 3: So that's the four.
Speaker 5: And then going back to the earliest victim who was found,
Speaker 5: this was in nineteen ninety three and this was Sandra
Speaker 5: Caristia and her remains were found by hunters, Like you said,
Speaker 5: imagine just you're going out to have a fun hunt day.
Speaker 5: They found this poor woman. It was in a wooded
Speaker 5: area in log Island and it was about sixty miles
Speaker 5: from Gilgo Beach and it was on her body that
Speaker 5: hairs were found that linked her to Humerman all these
Speaker 5: years later.
Speaker 3: So yeah, Stephanie, I was.
Speaker 2: Just going to say just one little shout out to
Speaker 2: the moms of these victims, because honestly, this one unsolved.
Speaker 3: I'm from the area for years.
Speaker 2: Honestly, if it wasn't for the moms of these victims
Speaker 2: keeping them alive in the media's eyes, they would and
Speaker 2: they band together at some point and really rallied because
Speaker 2: police were not connecting these dots for whatever reason. And
Speaker 2: there's so much speculation around this, but regardless, in my heart,
Speaker 2: I believe these would not have been solved murders if
Speaker 2: not for the loving parents and mothers specifically that came
Speaker 2: together to fight for their daughter's justice. Sorry, Joseph, I
Speaker 2: just had to throw that in because it's so unique.
Speaker 8: So I concur I couldcur completely with you. Families play
Speaker 8: such a such a big part rather in solving hamsas
Speaker 8: many times, particularly those that are they're open, you know,
Speaker 8: not just the idea of getting justice, but just just
Speaker 8: giving a inertia to the case to move it along.
Speaker 8: And here's the odd thing about it is, it's not
Speaker 8: like we're in the city. Okay, we're out of Long Island.
Speaker 8: How many of these cases does it take until a
Speaker 8: light bulb goes off above your head and says, hey, look,
Speaker 8: we've got these similarities that are occurring out here. How
Speaker 8: is it that nobody's putting.
Speaker 9: Two or two together?
Speaker 8: And you know, again, jurisdictionally, you might have some divide there.
Speaker 8: You might not have as much connectivity because one the
Speaker 8: left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Speaker 8: And also people retire, people move on with their lives,
Speaker 8: and some of these things are lost.
Speaker 9: To the this time.
Speaker 4: Well, all the victims were from different different areas too.
Speaker 4: They weren't all from they weren't from Long Island, so
Speaker 4: you know they're from the city, right. I think that
Speaker 4: has I think it has a little bit to do
Speaker 4: with it too, because you know, Long Island's just you know,
Speaker 4: sitting out there. They don't realize they've got these four
Speaker 4: victims laying in gog Beach right in Manhattan, You're right,
Speaker 4: and wherever else they're they're missing people I don't know.
Speaker 8: Yeah, And that's interesting also this bit that these women,
Speaker 8: many of them did, originate from the city and then
Speaker 8: they're they're brought out to an area which the city
Speaker 8: toilers in New York considered to be very rural. You know,
Speaker 8: we're going to Long Island. It's like a huge trip there.
Speaker 8: It's like a part in the rural area, but the
Speaker 8: point of origin, the genesis for this is the city
Speaker 8: and they're coming out there. The one commonality is that
Speaker 8: they're on the same trade, right, and.
Speaker 3: They're all twenty two to twenty seven years old too.
Speaker 3: They're all fairly young women.
Speaker 8: And petit yeah, and they're petite.
Speaker 3: Giant.
Speaker 4: He's a giant man, right, He's humongous, like he's really
Speaker 4: it's like six seven or something.
Speaker 3: How tall is he? I can't remember. He's tall.
Speaker 5: He's incredibly tall and imposing and an eyewitness we can
Speaker 5: talk about later described him, I believe as an ogre.
Speaker 5: You are listening to true crime tonight. We're talking true
Speaker 5: crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong with Body Move
Speaker 5: and Stephanie Leidecker, and gracing our presence tonight is forensic
Speaker 5: expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We'd really love you to join
Speaker 5: the conversation, so give us a call. We're at eighty
Speaker 5: eight three to one crime or send us a talkback
Speaker 5: super easy on the iHeart app. You go to the
Speaker 5: right hand corner, press on the microphone and then you
Speaker 5: are on the show. So Joseph, we're talking about commonalities obviously,
Speaker 5: and we started touching. You started touching earlier. On decapitation, So,
Speaker 5: Jessica Taylor. She was found in two thousand and three,
Speaker 5: again an unsuspecting woman walking her dog. This was in Manorville,
Speaker 5: New York. And the poor woman she had been decapitated.
Speaker 5: Both of her arms had been severed, bloody elbows, and
Speaker 5: it's had two had been obliterated by a sharp object.
Speaker 5: Back to you talking about objects. So how rare or
Speaker 5: not is it for the same murderer allegedly to choose
Speaker 5: to decapitate and do this to one woman and not
Speaker 5: the others.
Speaker 8: I don't know that I can necessarily speak about frequency here,
Speaker 8: but I think that one thing that is of note
Speaker 8: court in the idea here is that it's messy business.
Speaker 8: I know that seems rather an obvious statement. However, you
Speaker 8: have to have privacy, you have to have access, assuming
Speaker 8: that electrical instruments are used, you have to have access
Speaker 8: to electricity. This is not something you're going to do
Speaker 8: along the side of the road. You have to have time,
Speaker 8: and it's a developed skill set. As gruesome as that sound,
Speaker 8: you know, people that walk in that do butchery, for instance,
Speaker 8: you know for a living, they just don't do that
Speaker 8: the first day. It's a learning curve, So it would
Speaker 8: take time in order to develop a skill set like this,
Speaker 8: and you have to have the want to in order
Speaker 8: to be it to do it. A lot of people
Speaker 8: think that they could do it. A lot of people
Speaker 8: have said, well, yeah, it's very simple.
Speaker 9: No, it's not.
Speaker 8: Because most of the people that are caught as a
Speaker 8: result of physical evidence that's left behind that results from
Speaker 8: a dismemberment, many times it's because they don't understand how
Speaker 8: to do it the most efficient way. They don't know
Speaker 8: the first thing about human anatomy, what's the easiest way
Speaker 8: to go about that? And these are the sort of
Speaker 8: things we think about in forensics many times. I think
Speaker 8: that probably profilers think about that as well. But you
Speaker 8: need time and you need privacy, And that case in
Speaker 8: particular is kind of a touchstone in all of this.
Speaker 8: Where did he do this? How long did he have
Speaker 8: with his body to go this deep into interesting?
Speaker 5: And that goes back to what you were saying with
Speaker 5: you know, potentially mapping out Humerman's family's travels and how
Speaker 5: long he had if maybe his whole family was on
Speaker 5: an extended trip when one of these poor women were
Speaker 5: taking end of it, it.
Speaker 8: Has to be yeah, and again remember the checklist. The
Speaker 8: check is one thing that you need to always.
Speaker 9: Keep in mind.
Speaker 8: Is that statement, that comment that he made playtime And
Speaker 8: that's always going to ring in my ears, you know,
Speaker 8: the first time I heard somebody talk about it after
Speaker 8: that list was was released. And what does playtime mean? Well,
Speaker 8: playtime for us might mean something completely different to somebody
Speaker 8: that engages in this kind of averant behavior, like it
Speaker 8: could be something that is so so out of bounds
Speaker 8: that we can't imagine it. But for him it could
Speaker 8: very well be his own personal reaction.
Speaker 5: Can you briefly remind me of the checklist? What are
Speaker 5: you referring to? Was that something that Huerman had.
Speaker 8: A Well, it's something that was recovered digitally, you know,
Speaker 8: that had been banked by him, and it's a checklist,
Speaker 8: you know, like the older I've gotten a knee checklist
Speaker 8: in my life, so just to make sure I'm going
Speaker 8: to cover everything. But for somebody like this, it's trying
Speaker 8: to dodge dodge the police or trying to keep them
Speaker 8: off sent so that he doesn't. I mean, we're talking
Speaker 8: about we're talking about mid level forensic skills here, where
Speaker 8: he's trying to defeat anything that we might do going
Speaker 8: out to the scene to recover evidence. He's trying to
Speaker 8: defeat that preemptively. And so that's how much thought he's
Speaker 8: putting into wearing gloves, cleaning up after himself, all that
Speaker 8: sort of.
Speaker 5: Yeah, real, I mean, I don't even know what to
Speaker 5: say beyond a real life dexter.
Speaker 3: Do not forget.
Speaker 5: If you miss any part of the show, you can
Speaker 5: always catch the podcast and we want to hear from you.
Speaker 5: Give us a call. We're at eighty eight three on Crime,
Speaker 5: or you can get with us on socials. We are
Speaker 5: at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram and
Speaker 5: True Crime Tonight on Facebook. But now body, let's get
Speaker 5: into it.
Speaker 4: Okay, So I want to talk about Suzanne Morphew. So
Speaker 4: let me so, Barry Morphew, this is such a complicated
Speaker 4: story to get into. It's a it's a really big
Speaker 4: case and we're definitely going to be talking about it
Speaker 4: a lot. Suzanne Morphew's husband, Suzanne Morphuw, went missing in
Speaker 4: twenty twenty.
Speaker 3: Sorry, I have to get this out.
Speaker 4: She went missing in twenty twenty and her husband was
Speaker 4: arrested in twenty twenty one for her murder. Okay, and
Speaker 4: he was let go in twenty twenty two because you know,
Speaker 4: the prosecutors didn't have enough evidence and they were not comfortable,
Speaker 4: you know, moving forward with the case, and there was
Speaker 4: some tomfoolery going on with the prosecutor, so they dismissed
Speaker 4: the charges without prejudice. Okay, so he could be recharged again, Okay,
Speaker 4: So he got They they found her body a year
Speaker 4: after that, in September of twenty three September of twenty
Speaker 4: twenty three, and charges have been re established for her husband,
Speaker 4: Barry more few Okay. So it's kind of a long, complicated,
Speaker 4: you know, timeline. But I want to talk to Joseph,
Speaker 4: thank god he's here, because I want to know what
Speaker 4: makes this different this time around? What makes us different
Speaker 4: this time around from Barrie's first rest. We know that
Speaker 4: the body, right that clearly that's the big difference, right,
Speaker 4: But what is the most compelling forensic details that we
Speaker 4: know about Joseph that you can tell us that led prosecutors,
Speaker 4: you think, to re establishing charges for him?
Speaker 8: Two pieces here. I think, first off, they have a
Speaker 8: team of forensic anthropologists, a team that consists of forensic anthropologists,
Speaker 8: person that studies human skelet or remains, a forensic entomologist
Speaker 8: that studies bugs, and a forensic botanist discub that you know,
Speaker 8: understands the local flora, all right, because in forensics, we'll
Speaker 8: look for pollen deposited on clothing, like, for instance, where
Speaker 8: Suzanne's remains were found, she has a particular type of
Speaker 8: pollen that's not associated with that area. That gives you
Speaker 8: that's a clue for them, you know, try to understand
Speaker 8: what the orgy, you know, why does she have this
Speaker 8: particular type of pollen on her clothing. So you bring
Speaker 8: all of these into the mix. But the conclusion that
Speaker 8: they arrived at relative to her remains, which were in
Speaker 8: a state of skeletonization or had been skeletonized, was that
Speaker 8: more than likely her body did not arrive in the
Speaker 8: condition in which it was found in this location. Just
Speaker 8: let that sink in for a second. In other words,
Speaker 8: that means that she may, according to them, may have
Speaker 8: been allowed to decompose somewhere else and then she was
Speaker 8: redeposited in this location.
Speaker 4: In fact, now that you're speaking about that, we have
Speaker 4: a talk back regarding this case.
Speaker 3: Can we go and play that talk about?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 8: Sure, Hey, this is Judy in Vegas.
Speaker 3: I have a question about the Colorado case.
Speaker 5: Does the forendics show that the mom was moved after
Speaker 5: her body decomposed?
Speaker 3: I think that'd be interesting to figure out.
Speaker 4: So she asked that was She asked if does the
Speaker 4: forensics tell us if the body was moved after she decomposed?
Speaker 4: So it's kind of what you were just talking about, right, Joseph,
Speaker 4: she was moved?
Speaker 3: Correct?
Speaker 8: Yeah, and great question, Jody, You're right, And I think
Speaker 8: that that's look that that's going to play into this
Speaker 8: case as it begins to develop.
Speaker 4: You know, I wonder when he got released, when the
Speaker 4: when the charges were dropped, did he get a wild
Speaker 4: inclination in his head to move her body?
Speaker 8: Yeah, because you do have people that will go out
Speaker 8: and remove remains. I've had cases where people have had
Speaker 8: dug up remains that they buried and moved them to
Speaker 8: another location. That's not fiction. It's not like you see.
Speaker 9: That on a movie.
Speaker 2: He has children with her, like, this is the mother
Speaker 2: of his children who was allegedly out on mother's day
Speaker 2: of all days. Yeah, and what he faked a bike
Speaker 2: accident and then suddenly decided to dispose of her body,
Speaker 2: get arrested, get released.
Speaker 3: And then he went and changed the.
Speaker 2: Location or dug her up or redressed her like. All
Speaker 2: of that just sounds so unbelievably sick.
Speaker 3: It's hard to wrap our brains around it does.
Speaker 8: And I got to tell you, for me personally, from
Speaker 8: a forensics perspective, I am just as interested in the
Speaker 8: location where she was initially located in I am relative
Speaker 8: to where she was found. And I think that there's
Speaker 8: potential to find some evidence, some residual evidence at that location.
Speaker 8: And one other thing I think is important here, how
Speaker 8: intact worthy skeletal remains, because you know, with skeletal remains
Speaker 8: we lose bits and pieces. We've got all of these
Speaker 8: bothes in our body structure of the hands alone, there's
Speaker 8: a chance you can lose things along the way.
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, it's terrible to think about. This is true
Speaker 4: crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Body Moved, and I'm here
Speaker 4: with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker, and we are talking
Speaker 4: with the lovely Joseph Scott Morgan about the Suzanne Morphy murder.
Speaker 3: If you have a.
Speaker 4: Question or opinion, give us a call at eighty eight
Speaker 4: thirty one Crime, or tell us your thoughts on the
Speaker 4: talkbacks using the heart radio app Joseph. One thing we
Speaker 4: talked about this past week was some new information about
Speaker 4: a needle cap that was found in the dryer. What
Speaker 4: do you think that says about him? What does that
Speaker 4: tell us?
Speaker 3: Do you think?
Speaker 9: I don't know.
Speaker 8: I think you need defense. Attorney would say, so what,
Speaker 8: he's got a needle cap in his pocket. You know
Speaker 8: that in his clothes. You know that are found in
Speaker 8: the dryer. He found it in the yard. He just
Speaker 8: picked it up. Doesn't like trash and jar Okay, so
Speaker 8: all right, that's the story you're going with. But you
Speaker 8: think about this, this compound that's being utilized, which, by
Speaker 8: the way, correct me if I'm wrong. You guys might
Speaker 8: have a bit more insight. I think he was like
Speaker 8: one of the few people in state that actually had
Speaker 8: access to this and the one may have been brought
Speaker 8: in from somewhere else, This bam compound and nothing for
Speaker 8: everybody with the details that you've got a drug compound
Speaker 8: that literally can be used as it's used in anesthesia,
Speaker 8: anti anxiety, and also like a muscle relaxing. She anybody
Speaker 8: that's hit with the stuff, and it's made to use
Speaker 8: for medium sized game, you know, like a mule deer
Speaker 8: or a white tail.
Speaker 9: I guess you could use it on an help you
Speaker 9: had to.
Speaker 8: This little lady. She's not gonna she doesn't have someboll's
Speaker 8: chance in hell if if this is injected in or
Speaker 8: she's going out. Now I'm not saying it's lethal. What
Speaker 8: I am saying though, she's going to go into that
Speaker 8: deep dark place that we can all identify with if we,
Speaker 8: any of us, have ever had surgery you have any
Speaker 8: control over it, that's what.
Speaker 9: Would have happened.
Speaker 8: And the idea that there was a dark gun which
Speaker 8: this is administered with, you know, like you could to
Speaker 8: animal or a dark gun functioning dark gun. Yeah, that
Speaker 8: was there. And it can also be administered with a
Speaker 8: hypodermic needle. It doesn't have to go directly into the
Speaker 8: venus system. It can actually go uh its eye am
Speaker 8: which is intramuscular, which means it can be ejected injected
Speaker 8: right into say the fleshy part of the body like
Speaker 8: the buttock, and then you're going down, it's going to
Speaker 8: be lights out. So the fact that he had that
Speaker 8: needle cap is I don't I'm not going to say
Speaker 8: it's damning, but it's a if you think about a
Speaker 8: jigsaw puzzle, it might be one of those little pieces
Speaker 8: that where's that other piece? Oh?
Speaker 9: Here it is.
Speaker 8: It's the needle cap and that slips into the spot.
Speaker 3: And now she would be unconscious, is that right? She wouldn't.
Speaker 4: She wouldn't have any consciousness of her like, she wouldn't
Speaker 4: be like paralyzed with thoughts.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent question, I think I've heard
Speaker 8: again looking at Yeah, I don't. I don't know either,
Speaker 8: because we don't know what kind of DOSAG may have
Speaker 8: been administered. And if I can just kind of chime
Speaker 8: in on this very briefly, this BAM compound has actually
Speaker 8: been found in her skeletal remains. Now understand this because
Speaker 8: there's gonna be a lot of questions about this. Did
Speaker 8: he O d her allegedly? Well, we can't determine that
Speaker 8: with skeletal remains. All we can do with this is
Speaker 8: say we have what are called in toxic forensic toxicology,
Speaker 8: you have what's called a qualitative amount and a quantitative amount.
Speaker 8: We can give you a qualitative say, if you do
Speaker 8: a core sample of the bone and you spin it down,
Speaker 8: you can actually say, okay, this compound is there, but
Speaker 8: I can't tell you how much is there. In medicine,
Speaker 8: you have things like therapeutic levels and lethal levels, and
Speaker 8: that's a quantitative amount. We can merely qualify it. I
Speaker 8: don't know if anybody that can actually say that they
Speaker 8: can quantitate that amount. Maybe somebody has a magic insight
Speaker 8: into that, but as far as I know, you can't
Speaker 8: put a specific number on.
Speaker 4: But what we do know is that the medicine metabolized,
Speaker 4: which means and correct me if I'm wrong, Joseph, because
Speaker 4: I need it. But what that means is that she
Speaker 4: was alive long enough for her body to process some
Speaker 4: of the drug, right.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yes, absolutely right, that it was an uptake into
Speaker 8: her system and it actually made I think, I think
Speaker 8: probably into the bone barrow.
Speaker 3: Oh god.
Speaker 4: So I wonder if he knocked her out and like
Speaker 4: transported her somewhere, you know, maybe to the hotel room
Speaker 4: or the bleach. So he was supposed to be at work,
Speaker 4: and he was at this hotel room, and when workers
Speaker 4: I think went into the hotel room or the police
Speaker 4: or somebody went into the hotel room. It smelled of bleach, right,
Speaker 4: so I wonder if.
Speaker 8: He transported her.
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh that's horrific.
Speaker 4: Stick around next because we're going to be talking more
Speaker 4: with Joseph Scott Morgan. And there's an unsolved murder in
Speaker 4: Atlanta's Piedmont Park and don't forget give us a call
Speaker 4: at eight eight eight thirty one Crime with your thoughts
Speaker 4: on any of Tonight's stories. Keep it here some kind.
Speaker 2: Of welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and
Speaker 2: I head up KT Studios where we make true crime
Speaker 2: podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that with
Speaker 2: crime analyst Body move In and crime producer and host
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong. And we are here with forensics expert Joseph
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, who's breaking.
Speaker 3: All scary things down for us. Listen.
Speaker 2: If you want to join us, please call eight eight
Speaker 2: eight three one Crime, or you could always hit us
Speaker 2: up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram, or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook,
Speaker 2: and you could also do a talk back if you
Speaker 2: download the iHeart app. You just push the right hand
Speaker 2: button and then you just leave a little message and
Speaker 2: then we'll play that message in the show and then
Speaker 2: we can respond to real time. So, Joseph, I know
Speaker 2: you've been following closely a case in Atlanta, very disturbing,
Speaker 2: So trigger alert for all, Joseph, take it away.
Speaker 8: Yeah, So this case is something that has been ongoing.
Speaker 8: This is an unsolved hom side that I'm referring to,
Speaker 8: and this goes all the way back to July twenty eighth,
Speaker 8: twenty twenty one, and obviously we're approaching I guess the
Speaker 8: fourth anniversary of arguably one of the most single horrific
Speaker 8: homicides in the Atlanta area in years and years. And
Speaker 8: what I'm talking about is the murder of a young
Speaker 8: lady named Katie Janice, who is out walking her dog
Speaker 8: in a location that's very familiar to people that are
Speaker 8: from the Atlanta area. It's called Piedmont Park. It's kind
Speaker 8: of like I think Atlanta's like to refer to it
Speaker 8: as their central park if you will. Weekends, you know,
Speaker 8: you've got families out there with kids walking dogs, people jogging,
Speaker 8: all these sorts of things. But on this particular night,
Speaker 8: Katie had gone out with her.
Speaker 9: Dog to take the dog for a walk.
Speaker 8: She'd gotten off work she worked as a bartender. And
Speaker 8: the next thing you know, Katie is found along the
Speaker 8: pathway there in Piedmont Park and she has over fifty
Speaker 8: five sharp force injuries to her body. Her dog has
Speaker 8: been brutally stabbed to death as well. And this is
Speaker 8: if I remember correctly. This dog is a pit bull.
Speaker 8: So there's so much to be red. Yeah, they are
Speaker 8: in other pit bulls that are sweet, you know, sweet,
Speaker 8: and a lot of it depends upon the die. I
Speaker 8: think it's like any dog, you know, real nasty reputation.
Speaker 8: But yeah, they can be just little angels. I'm a
Speaker 8: big dog person, so yeah, I mean, and to me,
Speaker 8: when you can kill a pit bull, you can get
Speaker 8: close enough in with a knife to do that. I
Speaker 8: don't know. To me, that's as was there a familiarity
Speaker 8: between the perpetrator and the dog, because you know, if
Speaker 8: you're out with your master, dogs out with their masters,
Speaker 8: they're going to protect their masks.
Speaker 2: You're going to protect their master at all costs. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a getting they.
Speaker 8: Will, Yeah, and the dog was found a bit of
Speaker 8: a distance, not along all ways away from Katie. And
Speaker 8: still to this day they don't have any or at
Speaker 8: least they have not released any kind of firm answers here.
Speaker 8: But I think one of the things that this really
Speaker 8: speaks to is the degree to which she suffered. This
Speaker 8: is a torturous death, because it's not like it's merely
Speaker 8: notice I said that she sustained fifty sharp horse injuries.
Speaker 8: I didn't say stabloids. There were stab wounds, but these
Speaker 8: are also co mingled with incised wounds.
Speaker 9: Either.
Speaker 8: In my opinion, at least, there's there's a strong element
Speaker 8: here of disfigurement, of sexualization. The breasts have been sliced
Speaker 8: and the face has been sliced all the way down
Speaker 8: to the gum line, if you will. She was disfigured.
Speaker 8: And I think probably the worst part about this when
Speaker 8: they finally did the exam on her body, it was
Speaker 8: discovered that a word had actually been carved into her
Speaker 8: chest and abdomen. And again that's you know, who does
Speaker 8: that in public? This is a public area. Anybody could
Speaker 8: have been walking by who feels that comfortable doing this
Speaker 8: level of mutilation, That we're talking about here.
Speaker 9: And still still this thing is not solved.
Speaker 8: That we there have been really no recent updates. As
Speaker 8: a matter of fact, the police are still saying to
Speaker 8: this day, if you have any information, police calls as
Speaker 8: the Atlanta Homicide Division.
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.
Speaker 6: Right.
Speaker 5: There have been extensive investigations by the Atlanta Police and
Speaker 5: the FBI and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. And like
Speaker 5: you said, Joseph, with that, the case is unsolved, no arrest,
Speaker 5: but still active and they are now focusing on DNA evidence.
Speaker 5: They're hoping some new lead will present itself in the case.
Speaker 3: I sure hope.
Speaker 4: So this is your crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy
Speaker 4: Movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 4: We're joined by Joseph Scott Morgan, and we're talking about
Speaker 4: Katie Jenesi's unsolved.
Speaker 3: Murder out of Atlanta, Georgia.
Speaker 4: If you have a question or opinion, give us a
Speaker 4: call at eighty eight eight thirty on crime, or tell
Speaker 4: us your thoughts on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 3: So, Joseph, the word that.
Speaker 4: Was carved into her abdomen, it was fat.
Speaker 3: Is that right? Yes, fat, And they're sure that it
Speaker 3: was fat.
Speaker 9: Yeah.
Speaker 8: Yeah. As a matter of fact, the pathologist that did
Speaker 8: the examination goes to great length to describe this, and
Speaker 8: I hate to even mention this, but guys, there's hemorrhage
Speaker 8: in dwelling in these injuries, and that means that she
Speaker 8: was live while this was being done. Yeah, so, or
Speaker 8: at least she was in We've got three stages in death.
Speaker 8: We've got anti mortem, which means before death, and everybody's
Speaker 8: heard post mortal, but there's also a stage called perry mortal,
Speaker 8: which is.
Speaker 9: That kind of twilight area where you.
Speaker 8: Can still have hemorrhage into wounds and that sort of thing.
Speaker 8: And yeah, there's indwelling hemorrhage in these wounds. That goes
Speaker 8: to tell you how sickening this is and how sick
Speaker 8: this act was a park and again and Peedmont Park, Yeah,
Speaker 8: very popular, probably the most well known park in Atlanta,
Speaker 8: and a lot of foot traffic through their guys, And look,
Speaker 8: I used to work in Atlanta with a medical examiner.
Speaker 8: I was an EMMY investigator there for many, many years,
Speaker 8: and I've worked cases in Piedmont Park, but most of
Speaker 8: the time that had to do with. If it was
Speaker 8: a homicide, it would be like, you know, some homeless
Speaker 8: guy that might stab somebody and then they would flee.
Speaker 8: You know, we talked earlier. Do you remember what we
Speaker 8: were talking about with Jurman Earlier? I mentioned about the
Speaker 8: element of time. Somebody hovered over her for a protracted
Speaker 8: period of time perpetrating this. This was not like a
Speaker 8: quick one off event. You're going to run off with
Speaker 8: some kind of valuables. No, that's not what happened. We're
Speaker 8: talking about fifty individual wounds here, all right, and to
Speaker 8: boot we're talking about the animal as well. This takes
Speaker 8: time in order to facilitate this. It's again, it's amazing
Speaker 8: to me. Now I do know that they took blood
Speaker 8: samples from her. Obviously they're going to do talks, but
Speaker 8: they've got blood cards which we create in the lab.
Speaker 8: Or we'll put a droplet on a blater cart and
Speaker 8: hang on to that. I think the question is were
Speaker 8: how successful were they in retrieving any kind of blood
Speaker 8: of it from her clothing? Was the dog's blood on
Speaker 8: the clothing, because if you have the dog's blood on
Speaker 8: the clothing, that would indicate that maybe the dog was
Speaker 8: killed first. And then she was killed vice versa. How
Speaker 8: good of an exam did they do on the dog's body?
Speaker 8: Was Katie's blood found on the on the body of
Speaker 8: the dog, you know, embedded in the fur. And did
Speaker 8: the perpetrator leave anything behind? Did they cut themselves which
Speaker 8: happens very frequently, you know in Sharpforce's injury case.
Speaker 4: Does the overkill here in this lead to like a
Speaker 4: personal motive? Do you think, Joseph, was this a person killing?
Speaker 8: Yeah? I mean why why would you spend this much
Speaker 8: both If listen, if people will just touch your neck
Speaker 8: right now and you find your trachea the externally, you'll
Speaker 8: find that large cartilage's body on either side. On either
Speaker 8: side of your trachia, your karates are there. And so
Speaker 8: both of her karates were cut, not just one, Both
Speaker 8: of her curatits were cut. So that's you know, and
Speaker 8: not to mention, you know the stablins.
Speaker 9: That go through and through or go through.
Speaker 8: Her body cavvy and you know, impact her organs. This
Speaker 8: took a protracted period of tom the person that did
Speaker 8: this would have been super saturated in blood of things.
Speaker 5: It staggers me knowing where this took place. I actually
Speaker 5: spent several months working with Steph on a series with
Speaker 5: Nancy Grace and stayed in Atlanta. I was right near
Speaker 5: Piedmont Park and it is it's just real public and
Speaker 5: people are there all the time. You mentioned families, but
Speaker 5: also walking in the evenings, because I would walk in
Speaker 5: the evenings after work and it was, you know, just bustling.
Speaker 3: So I'm I just am staggered.
Speaker 5: I also want to acknowledge that Katie was known for
Speaker 5: her kindness. She was into social justice advocacy, and she
Speaker 5: has been remembered through park dedications and makeshift memorials.
Speaker 3: I just wanted to make sure that we a moment
Speaker 3: to respect.
Speaker 5: That amid all of this atrocity that was rained down
Speaker 5: upon her, because this is as senseless as and it's.
Speaker 4: And it's so sad because her murder remains unsolved, and
Speaker 4: this listen, everybody deserves to be solved, every murder deserved
Speaker 4: to be solved. But she seems like a pretty extraordinary woman.
Speaker 8: Oh gosh, yeah, this is let me give you, you know,
Speaker 8: let me paint a bit more specific picture. This area
Speaker 8: where she was found is kind of a famous in
Speaker 8: a famous landmark here because this is the first crosswalk
Speaker 8: if you will that was painted with like the rainbow flag.
Speaker 8: All right, and if you look at it, and you
Speaker 8: can go on line and see one image of her
Speaker 8: crossing that crosswalk. But guess what, guys, all the other
Speaker 8: CCTV cameras in that area were not working. At the
Speaker 8: people that work of her.
Speaker 4: Have they looked at the people that are like in
Speaker 4: charge of maintaining those cameras.
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, yeah, And I mean, what are you going
Speaker 8: to do? I mean they'll just say, yeah that we're out,
Speaker 8: you know, And that's essentially the response that you get.
Speaker 8: And politicians will beat their chest and say, well, we've
Speaker 8: been working on this for some time to try to
Speaker 8: get it sick. It never gets resolved. It's one of
Speaker 8: those types of things that you just come to understand
Speaker 8: when you live in a big city, right, But.
Speaker 3: You know, it just seems like every time you need
Speaker 3: them not working.
Speaker 8: Scary thing about it is there's a maniac out there
Speaker 8: that did this, and if the cameras are working, you
Speaker 8: might have had a better chance of catching them.
Speaker 4: You're right about that. Well, later we're going to be
Speaker 4: inviting you to ask questions about any of the cases
Speaker 4: that we've covered tonight. Give us a call eight eight
Speaker 4: eight thirty one crime or use the talkbacks on the
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app.
Speaker 2: What a Night So Far, Courtney, I know you have
Speaker 2: a question to talk about this case.
Speaker 3: Go ahead fill us in. I do.
Speaker 5: My question is something you referenced earlier, Joseph, and this
Speaker 5: is regarding this Susanne more Few case. It's alleged that
Speaker 5: her husband, Barry murdered her. So you mentioned that in
Speaker 5: the forensic analysis there was a botanists and who studies flowers,
Speaker 5: and there was an entomologist. At what point in the
Speaker 5: process are they brought in and is it how common
Speaker 5: or not are these experts in looking at murders victims.
Speaker 8: Well, at the top of the list, it's going to
Speaker 8: be anthropologists. They're probably they have incredible utility. I've worked
Speaker 8: with them for years. I'm actually frustrated forensic anthropologists that
Speaker 8: I've met my heart, but it requires very specific training.
Speaker 8: Entomologists probably number two on the list. They're consulted quite
Speaker 8: a bit relative to time issues and that goes to
Speaker 8: the life cycle of insects. Really kind of a fascinating
Speaker 8: one though, is forensic botanist the lawn share Those people
Speaker 8: are utilized to study specific well two areas if a
Speaker 8: body has like unknown vegetable matter on the clothing. For
Speaker 8: instances like what in the hell is this? You know,
Speaker 8: you find the forensic botanist ask them about the point
Speaker 8: of origin of this and of a particular plant species,
Speaker 8: or they look at pollens because like, if you're in
Speaker 8: southern Apalachia, you're not going to find the same pollens
Speaker 8: up there that you will along the Gulf coast. All right,
Speaker 8: it's those two things do not coexist one with another.
Speaker 8: Insect life is the same way as well.
Speaker 3: So the insects are even regional.
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, they can be. You can move from one
Speaker 8: area to another. And for us, you know, a guy,
Speaker 8: you know, yeah, I know a little bit about entomology,
Speaker 8: but not as much as these people. Some of these
Speaker 8: changes and some of these species are very subtle, and
Speaker 8: they can recognize these things about them even developmentally within
Speaker 8: a certain species. They can see different changes dependent upon
Speaker 8: the geography, the colomatology, all those sorts of things that
Speaker 8: play into it. It's very involved and very people.
Speaker 5: I've actually, I know what kind of an oddly large
Speaker 5: amount of entomologists and they.
Speaker 3: Just know all of their stuff. Really, yes, I do
Speaker 3: interesting like often I do know this about Courtney Armstrong.
Speaker 2: She is a botanist, like she attracts them apparently, But
Speaker 2: that is I'm so glad you said it out loud.
Speaker 6: No, that was.
Speaker 5: They're just fascinating and really learned, knowledgeable folks.
Speaker 8: Very focused.
Speaker 9: They're very focused individuals.
Speaker 8: I knew a guy that studied nothing but fire ants.
Speaker 9: So there you go.
Speaker 3: Well, do you guys remember yes?
Speaker 9: Focused.
Speaker 4: In CSI, the main guy was the entomologist, and I
Speaker 4: think you know, he would talk about the bugcasings and
Speaker 4: you know things, and I think that really attracted a
Speaker 4: lot of viewers to the show because it was so interesting.
Speaker 4: And I mean, I just think it's super interesting, Joseph,
Speaker 4: Like all the things that you've been talking about tonight,
Speaker 4: I'm just like, Oh, tell me more, you know, Like it's.
Speaker 8: Just very fascinating to me.
Speaker 3: I just I love it. Thank you.
Speaker 8: There's a lot of utility in the natural sciences and
Speaker 8: it's useful.
Speaker 9: Forendsuccess the beauty of it.
Speaker 4: Oh, I went to the wrong field. I should not
Speaker 4: have gone into computers. This is just so fascinating to me.
Speaker 4: I love its life.
Speaker 2: Life still, young, Joseph, You're going to be back with
Speaker 2: us obviously, So honestly, these have been some harrowing tales.
Speaker 2: We've yeah unraveled a bit tonight. Obviously, we're going to
Speaker 2: be discussing Diddy tomorrow the jury deliberation begins, and Joseph,
Speaker 2: you'll be back with us next week, of course, So
Speaker 2: thank you everybody for sharing your Sunday with us. We'll
Speaker 2: have new developments in the case in Cordelaine, Idaho.
Speaker 3: Our thoughts are with everyone true crime tonight. Have a
Speaker 3: great night.