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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the host, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 2: If you have the Sunday night blues like me, join

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Speaker 2: in because I am so glad we're together tonight. Please

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Speaker 2: call us anytime eight eight eight three one crime because

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Speaker 2: we have a stacked night of headlines. It's June twenty ninth,

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Speaker 2: and listen as we come on the news tonight. We're

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Speaker 2: following a breaking story out of Quardlaine, Idaho, where apparently

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Speaker 2: law enforcement is having some sniper fire go down. Two

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Speaker 2: lives have been lost already, God willing there are no more.

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Speaker 2: But we will be following that very closely throughout the

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Speaker 2: next few hours. And if you have something to share,

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Speaker 2: please do so by reaching out real time. Also, we

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Speaker 2: have Joseph Scott Morgan, the host of Body Bags, here

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Speaker 2: with us again. He's going to be breaking down all

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Speaker 2: things forensics in the Long Island serial murder case. We're

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Speaker 2: going to be really dissecting the grounds with which the

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Speaker 2: victims were found and then also later in the.

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Speaker 3: Show Diddy Diddy, Diddy Diddy.

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Speaker 2: Closing arguments happened on Friday, and the defense rests tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: The jury will actually have Diddy's fate in their hands.

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Speaker 2: And I gotta be honest, I am very divided about

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Speaker 2: how this is gonna go. So again, if you have

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Speaker 2: an opinion, guilty or not guilty, we want to hear

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Speaker 2: from you. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and I head of KT Studios,

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Speaker 2: where we make true crime podcasts and documentaries and I

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Speaker 2: get to do that every day with Courtney Armstrong and

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Speaker 2: Body Moven. So body fill us in on where we

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Speaker 2: are with Diddy right now?

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Speaker 4: Closing arguments Finally, doesn't it seem like it's been forever?

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Speaker 3: It had however, but it's also seemed really brief.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's been what you know, thirty days, but

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Speaker 2: the defense just stopping and sharing nothing is also curious,

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Speaker 2: very curious.

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Speaker 4: Well, Closing arguments concluded in the Diddy Combs trial, with

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Speaker 4: the defense focusing on really kind of like five basic compartments, Okay,

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Speaker 4: different things, how Diddy's sex life was unconventional but not illegal, right.

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Speaker 4: They denied any organized effort. They insisted that his accusers

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Speaker 4: consent to all the sexual encounters, and they questioned the

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Speaker 4: truthfulness and motives of the accusers. They also urged the

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Speaker 4: jury to ignore all the emotion and tabloid headlines and

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Speaker 4: focus on the lack of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

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Speaker 3: Right, So this is again, you have to be.

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Speaker 4: One hundred percent not in ninety nine one hundred percent convinced.

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Speaker 3: That he's guilty in order to check that guilty box.

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Speaker 4: Right.

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Speaker 3: The prosecution did do a short rebuttle afterwards. So that's

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Speaker 3: basically what's going on.

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Speaker 4: And Monday we'll hear hopefully maybe something from maybe we'll

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Speaker 4: get some questions from the jury. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: And listen and I will say both the prosecution, which

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Speaker 2: is an all female led you know, legal team of greatness,

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Speaker 2: did a great job. And the defense, you know, by

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Speaker 2: the way, you get what you pay for, they too

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Speaker 2: did an amazing job, right, Like they really came to

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Speaker 2: play and they called it, you know, his ditty's lawyer

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Speaker 2: said it was the tale of tailor two trials, right,

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Speaker 2: you know, like there's a case that's the glorified media

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Speaker 2: version and then there's this other case that's this consenting adults.

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Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's kinky behavior behind closed doors, but look,

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Speaker 2: is that a crime? And you know you said the

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Speaker 2: perfect word consented. They consented. Is that the same as

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Speaker 2: consenting the entire time? You know, Courtney, I see you like,

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Speaker 2: you know, brushing up there, go ahead.

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Speaker 5: Because the prosecution it's not just about Ditty's quirky sex life.

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Speaker 5: It is about kidnapping and bribery and sex trafficking, and

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Speaker 5: that is what the prosecution alleges went on for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, like even he agrees with that,

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Speaker 2: you know, even his legal team acknowledge, is like, look,

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Speaker 2: this was not.

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Speaker 3: Necessarily a great look.

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Speaker 2: Yes, perhaps he mistreated women, Okay, fine, perhaps he was

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Speaker 2: occasionally violent, Okay, yes, But again, you know, they're also

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Speaker 2: making it an assessment that this has been a big

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Speaker 2: money grab. And by the way, just as we're talking

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Speaker 2: about it, Cassie Ventura, who's the ex girlfriend of Ditty

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Speaker 2: of ten years, who was on the stand for multiple

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Speaker 2: days in her ninth month of pregnancy, you know, they're

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Speaker 2: saying this is just like a money grab for her.

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Speaker 2: She already got the money grab. She had twenty million

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Speaker 2: for she got I think even thirty million. Well she

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Speaker 2: asks for thirty why she got the money?

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Speaker 3: Why not go away?

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Speaker 4: Right?

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Speaker 3: Why would you have to still speak up? Right?

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Speaker 2: So it's not a money grab. That money was already grabbed.

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Speaker 2: And you know, listen, well earned and well deserved. In

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Speaker 2: my humble opinion, not that that matters, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's sort of this he said, she said, And then

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Speaker 2: you know, Diddy says again, I'm so curious because again

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Speaker 2: here in the studio it's really divided about the guilty,

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Speaker 2: n guilty.

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Speaker 3: Curious where you guys are landing today guilty?

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Speaker 4: Oh well, listen, I'm pretty I feel pretty compelled by

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Speaker 4: the witness testimony. I thought Jane was compelling. I thought

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Speaker 4: Kid Cutty was compelling, and to the root of it all,

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Speaker 4: I thought Cassie was very compelling. Yeah, I think it

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Speaker 4: showed a history and basically a pattern, right of organized

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Speaker 4: efforts to commit crimes.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's where you go. I think he's guilty bribery,

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Speaker 3: absolutely guilty.

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Speaker 5: And I do think that the prosecution has done a

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Speaker 5: really beautiful case, especially in their closing arguments, how they

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Speaker 5: laid everything out point by point. Take the bribery for one,

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Speaker 5: that involves as we all remember that horrible video of

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Speaker 5: Ditty abusing Cassie Venture in the hallway holding his towel. Okay,

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Speaker 5: that happened. The charge is bribery because then one hundred

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Speaker 5: thousand dollars was given to people to squash that and

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Speaker 5: make sure nobody ever sudden it never saw the light

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Speaker 5: of day, which ultimately happened. But it's the bribery and

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Speaker 5: the acknowledgment that what he did was wrong and he

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Speaker 5: could that makes him culpable to cover up.

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Speaker 4: And the defense in the closing argument said it was

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Speaker 4: just for bad publicity, argued that Combs paid the hotel

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Speaker 4: guard in twenty sixteen to avoid bad publicity, not to

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Speaker 4: block a police probe. So they addressed that in their

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Speaker 4: closing arguments. They addressed each criticis like each charge in

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Speaker 4: the closing arguments, and I said, I thought.

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Speaker 3: They did a great job.

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Speaker 2: But you know, I'm diddy, you know, and I have

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Speaker 2: ten of the greatest lawyers of all time defending me. Look,

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Speaker 2: they did a fantastic job, for sure. He's showing a

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Speaker 2: real like face of strength also apparently in the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: But at its core, do we believe that this guy

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Speaker 2: should get off? I mean, because it's becoming an all

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Speaker 2: or nothing at this point, he could walk, and my

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Speaker 2: fear would be that victims everywhere are going to be

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Speaker 2: less and less.

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Speaker 3: Likely to speak up. Well, I spoke up. What do

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Speaker 3: you guys think? I think guilty? What do you guys think? Oh? Oh, guilty, guilty.

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Speaker 4: No jury's going to say guilty. Oh gosh, that's what

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Speaker 4: I'm saying. What I'm saying, the jury's going to say

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Speaker 4: he's guilty.

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Speaker 3: I think so. I do think so. I do think

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Speaker 3: so too. I want to believe.

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Speaker 2: So listen, we've been down the rabbit hole and have

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Speaker 2: been listening and watching everything imaginable and apparently, during you know,

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Speaker 2: the defense's closing argument, that jurors were nodding, apparently allegedly,

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Speaker 2: and they seemed very you know, at ease in that

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Speaker 2: Diddy and the judge. Everything was like even the defense attorney,

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Speaker 2: you know, was making some giggles and jokes with the juror.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, it seems like it landed very positively.

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Speaker 2: But again, did they know something that we don't.

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Speaker 4: That's a good question because he is that defense not

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Speaker 4: putting on an argument is fishy to me.

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Speaker 3: And was he overcharged? I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I think I think Rico might have been going too far,

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Speaker 4: but I do think he's guilty of it.

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Speaker 5: So many questions. We want to hear what you are thinking.

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Speaker 5: Eighty eight three one crime. So give us a call,

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Speaker 5: join our conversation or hit us on the talkbacks on

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Speaker 5: the iHeartRadio app.

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Speaker 3: And we have a talkback right now.

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Speaker 6: Hi, my name is Sarah.

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Speaker 7: And in reference to the Diddy case, does his smugnus

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Speaker 7: and the quote strategic plan from the defense to not

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Speaker 7: have any witnesses kind of seems suspicious to anyone else,

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Speaker 7: Like he knows he's getting off, possibly because he may

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Speaker 7: have paid somebody to get off already, and he just

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Speaker 7: knows that that's what's going to happen. I know that's

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Speaker 7: down a conspiracy hole, but I can't help but to

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Speaker 7: think that way.

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Speaker 4: I just said that. Yeah, I mean, I don't think

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Speaker 4: it's a conspiracy. I don't think that he's in on anything.

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Speaker 4: I don't think he you know, there's like money under

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Speaker 4: the table or anything like that. I think he's just

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Speaker 4: gotten away with everything his entire life and doesn't expect

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Speaker 4: any repercussions for his bad behavior.

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Speaker 2: Totally fair and by the way. You know, I Miko,

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Speaker 2: my two cents would be too. And I know being

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Speaker 2: sequesters as jurors is a really big deal.

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Speaker 3: A It's crazy expensive. Think about it.

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Speaker 2: Your thirty days, you're in a hotel, you have no phones,

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Speaker 2: you're away from your job. I don't wish that on anyone,

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Speaker 2: or any citizen for that matter. However, in a reco

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Speaker 2: case where people are accusing someone of taking bribes and

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Speaker 2: paying people off and intruding the system, if you will,

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Speaker 2: only in that case do I think being sequestered could

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Speaker 2: be meaningful. I'm not suggesting at all that the jurors

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Speaker 2: have not done an extraordinary job and haven't been paying

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Speaker 2: attention and of course not paying attention to anything in

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Speaker 2: the media.

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Speaker 3: That is the rule.

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Speaker 2: However, it's hard to imagine that no one has said

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Speaker 2: anything to anyone. And I also would have to wonder

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Speaker 2: just to go down this like, you know, rabbit hole

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Speaker 2: of conspiracies. Is it interesting that he hasn't brought one witness?

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Speaker 2: Is that because that one witness could be a rabbit

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Speaker 2: hole with celebrities and in people that he has to

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Speaker 2: zip it up for or think about that. Here's another

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Speaker 2: theory that I read, not mine But another theory is

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Speaker 2: it possible that Diddy turned on state's evidence and as

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Speaker 2: a result, he knows he may walk in exchange for

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Speaker 2: someone bigger, meaning the rico is under a rico charge

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Speaker 2: of maybe a larger celebrity who may have been at play,

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Speaker 2: or even a larger celebrity than that that may have

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Speaker 2: been at play.

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Speaker 4: So is because then they would never be able to

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Speaker 4: charge him again with this if because he got off.

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Speaker 3: Or if he was given immunity.

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Speaker 4: If he was given immunity, they would dismiss the charges

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Speaker 4: and he wouldn't he would be there would be no jury,

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Speaker 4: there would be he would be you know what I mean,

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Speaker 4: like there wouldn't they wouldn't go through with it.

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Speaker 3: So is that how it works.

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Speaker 2: So, in the eleventh hour, right before the defense was

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Speaker 2: about to do closing arguments, if Diddy, for example, and

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Speaker 2: again I'm going on a limb here. If you have

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Speaker 2: an opinion, please join us eight eight eight three one crime.

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Speaker 2: This is not my even personal opinion. This is an

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Speaker 2: opinion of others that I've read, which you know got

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Speaker 2: in my head. So imagine in the aven or did

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Speaker 2: he is like I'm not doing jail time from this

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Speaker 2: point forward, I've had enough, I then turn on somebody else,

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Speaker 2: and therefore I get immunity.

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Speaker 3: Therefore, I have this very cocky.

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Speaker 2: Air quotes, arrogant per our talkback that is saying, I

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Speaker 2: know I'm going home in two weeks, if not sooner,

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Speaker 2: and somebody else might take the hit that I've been

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Speaker 2: covering for this whole time.

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Speaker 3: Is that even possible?

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Speaker 4: I don't think so, But maybe this is something that

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Speaker 4: we can ask our buddy, Jarrett Farantino, because I know

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Speaker 4: I'm lawyer.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I just I don't think.

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Speaker 4: I think that they would pull the charges and he

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Speaker 4: would get like he wouldn't get acquitted because then if

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Speaker 4: he pulled, if he's like, well ha ha, I just

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Speaker 4: I was just joking around, like I you know, I

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Speaker 4: don't have anybody, They can't. They would never be able

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Speaker 4: to charge him again. Then he just is free as

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Speaker 4: a bird.

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Speaker 5: I think the defense putting up no witnesses is as

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Speaker 5: simple as really solid legal advice because of what could

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Speaker 5: happen to everyone under cross examination.

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Speaker 3: I agree.

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Speaker 5: I mean everyone who is up there think about the

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Speaker 5: job that the defense did on cross They basically put

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Speaker 5: their entire case forth in that way. They don't want

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Speaker 5: to give the prosecution a second bite at the apple.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, I guess the lead here is like,

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Speaker 2: what's the takeaway? What are we taking from this? I

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Speaker 2: guess the takeaway is like your nothing comes for free.

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Speaker 2: You know, if someone's paying your bills and they don't

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Speaker 2: want to hear from you, you're stuck. And I don't

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Speaker 2: want that to be the case, because we hear a

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Speaker 2: lot about consented and money and all the things that

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Speaker 2: doesn't wash away abuse Listen.

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Speaker 5: Coming up, we have forensic expert Joseph Scott Morgan with us.

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Speaker 5: We're going to be talking about the Long Island serial killer.

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Speaker 5: Then we have a case out of Atlanta's Piedmont Park

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Speaker 5: and do not forget to call us eight a eighty

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Speaker 5: three on crime True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio talk in

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Speaker 2: True Crime all the Time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker and I

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Speaker 2: head of KT Studios, where we make true crime podcasts

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Speaker 2: and documentaries and I get to do that every day

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Speaker 2: with Courtney Armstrong and body Moven and also soon to

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Speaker 2: be Joseph Scott Morgan, host of the hit podcast Body Bags.

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Speaker 2: He's going to be breaking down a ton of forensics

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Speaker 2: for us, specifically in the Long Island serial killer case

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Speaker 2: as well as this very disturbing case coming out from Atlanta.

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Speaker 2: You know, we're following closely the new developments happening in Quardlaine,

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Speaker 2: Idaho active shooter. There's a sniper and law enforcement are

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Speaker 2: praying that there are not more casualties, So we'll be

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Speaker 2: monitoring that throughout the show. And then Diddy, of course,

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Speaker 2: closing arguments ended on Friday, and the jury could hit

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Speaker 2: it tomorrow and we could have a verdict in the

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Speaker 2: next coming days.

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Speaker 3: Think about it. Fourth of July is upon us. The

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Speaker 3: courts close.

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Speaker 2: This is like three days and if you're a juror,

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Speaker 2: do you you think to yourself, I have three days

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Speaker 2: to make a decision and then I can be with

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Speaker 2: my family and no more jury duty, or do you

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Speaker 2: you know, think about it for a couple of days,

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Speaker 2: knowing that there's a holiday, and then you have to

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Speaker 2: come back. Who knows, but it does seem as though

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Speaker 2: we're up against a clock, and this case has been

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Speaker 2: on our minds twenty four to seven, so it's pretty

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Speaker 2: amazing that it's just around the bend and we're getting

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Speaker 2: really mixed signals on what that could look like. So

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Speaker 2: we also are asking to hear from you. Listen, this

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Speaker 2: is your time to weigh in eight eight eight three

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Speaker 2: to one crime. Or if you just want to leave

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Speaker 2: a message, you can download your iHeart app, press the

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Speaker 2: right hand corner and just leave a message and boom.

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Speaker 2: You can join us on the show and just give

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Speaker 2: your opinion. In fact, we have a talkback right now.

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Speaker 6: He did he those couple of charges they dropped? Does

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Speaker 6: that mean that if he is found innocent of the

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Speaker 6: other stuff, will they be able to recharge him with

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Speaker 6: the ones that they dropped later on if they can

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Speaker 6: pile more evidence against him.

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Speaker 3: Great question, great ut question. I don't know. I want

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Speaker 3: to say that if they drop, if they drop.

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Speaker 4: Things or not, they're not going to be in the

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Speaker 4: charging document and therefore their rechargeable. But they would probably

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Speaker 4: be done at the state level, right because they would

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Speaker 4: only be like two things, and those two things would

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Speaker 4: not be RICO right, so there would be separate charges

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Speaker 4: at stay I listen, I'm not a lawyer, so you know,

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Speaker 4: take it pretty close.

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Speaker 3: But I think pretty close.

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Speaker 2: If I was meeting a lawyer and my brother wasn't available,

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Speaker 2: you'd be next on the list. Oh you know, all

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Speaker 2: that to be said, listen, is that perhaps strategy why

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Speaker 2: the you know, prosecution slimmed down the charges aiding and

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Speaker 2: embedding the possible the intent of you know, they did

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Speaker 2: they streamlined this, which got a lot of talkback of like,

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Speaker 2: oh my goodness, it must mean that they don't have

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Speaker 2: a case or does that mean they have the option

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Speaker 2: to still charge of that part at a later date?

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Speaker 3: Courtney, go ahead.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: My understanding is that as long as the files were

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Speaker 5: dropped without prejudice, then they can be refiled, assuming the

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Speaker 5: statute of limitations hasn't been passed and there is sufficient evidence,

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Speaker 5: and if it's with prejudice, they cannot be refiled.

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Speaker 3: That's my understanding.

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Speaker 5: Hopefully we can get an attorney in to confirm.

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Speaker 3: Because I just don't know that it would be done

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Speaker 3: in federal court.

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Speaker 2: Fair but still court is court right and for sure,

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Speaker 2: by the way, speaking of court, Courtney, that's a really

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Speaker 2: interesting point. So is that possible if they slim down

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Speaker 2: the charges? Therefore, those charges may still apply at a

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Speaker 2: later date should he be found not guilty. And my

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Speaker 2: other question would be should he found be found not guilty,

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Speaker 2: does he just go home? Yeah, yep, Wow, I know, silence,

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Speaker 2: what's the one thing he said on radio?

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Speaker 3: But we're all sort of taken by that.

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Speaker 5: He'll walk to two places, He'll walk home or you know,

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Speaker 5: go to two places home or back to where he's

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Speaker 5: being held.

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Speaker 3: Wow, right, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean yeah, right, that, I mean, there's nothing. If he's

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Speaker 4: found guilty or not guilty of all charges, go home.

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Speaker 4: If he's found guilty of one though of like the

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Speaker 4: sexual trafficking, which is I believe a separate charge because

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Speaker 4: he's got the RICO and then the sex trafficking, Yeah,

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Speaker 4: then he'll go.

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Speaker 3: You know, he's going to be Listen, he's going to

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Speaker 3: be guilty of one of them. Just last words.

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Speaker 2: I honestly don't have a strong feeling on it one

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Speaker 2: way or the other. And again my heart is with

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Speaker 2: I have, you know, the jurors and that they are,

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Speaker 2: you know, sifting through things really carefully. How about these

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Speaker 2: recent charges that just popped up with Justin Combs. That's

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Speaker 2: you know, Diddy's eldest son, and Justin has now been

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Speaker 2: brought up on charges as well, allegedly allegedly, allegedly he

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Speaker 2: lured a woman from a woman from Louisiana he met

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Speaker 2: on Snapchat. He encouraged her to send some risque photos.

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Speaker 2: She did very quickly. He Justin allegedly responded saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: please come to LA you can meet my dad, and

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Speaker 2: promised her lots of access to career help. Apparently she

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Speaker 2: was a you know, a thriving star to be and

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Speaker 2: when she arrived in Los Angeles, she was met by

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Speaker 2: a gaggle of humans that were wearing masquerade masks. How

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Speaker 2: scary in and of itself, and she claims she was

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Speaker 2: drugged and raped. And these charges just dropped. Is that scary?

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Speaker 2: Does the apple fall far from the tree? Or is

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Speaker 2: it just a crazy coincidence that on the eve of

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Speaker 2: the time that he may be released, that suddenly Diddy's

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Speaker 2: eldest son is also brought up on charges. And by

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Speaker 2: the way, Diddy is also said to be a part

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Speaker 2: of this raping. Apparently Justin referred to pops end quotes

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Speaker 2: and that in her opinion, this anonymous victim assumes that

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Speaker 2: was didty himself.

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Speaker 3: What do you make of that? I mean the time,

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Speaker 3: I mean the timing.

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Speaker 5: Could also be that this that this Jane Doe saw

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Speaker 5: that the trial was coming on and perhaps that gave

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Speaker 5: her some courage, if that's the correct word, to file.

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Speaker 3: Her own charges, right. I don't know, just a thought,

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Speaker 3: but it has uit me a very good point. What da,

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Speaker 3: what are the exact charges that he's being charged with

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Speaker 3: all kinds?

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Speaker 2: And by the way, interestingly enough, just aside from that,

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Speaker 2: So Justin's the eldest, and he's been in court, We've

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Speaker 2: seen him. You know, he's very devoted to his father.

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Speaker 2: The next up in line is Christian, and Christian is

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Speaker 2: the birth child of Diddy and his ex now deceased

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Speaker 2: Kim Porter. And Christian was also brought up on charges

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Speaker 2: back in April of twenty twenty four for allegedly sexually

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Speaker 2: assaulting a person on a yacht that they were partying on.

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Speaker 2: She was like one of the stewardesses on this boat.

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Speaker 2: And those charges have kind of happened in the background.

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Speaker 2: So that's a lot of Diddy men being brought up

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Speaker 2: on charges.

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Speaker 4: You're listening to True Crime tonight where we talk true

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Speaker 4: crime all the time. I'm body move in and I'm

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Speaker 4: here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we're talking

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Speaker 4: about all things Diddy. If you want to weigh in

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Speaker 4: with your thoughts. Give us a call at eight eight

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Speaker 4: eight thirty one crime, or use the iHeartRadio app and

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Speaker 4: send us a talk back message. Stephanie, you seem to

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Speaker 4: really kind of have your finger on the pulse of this.

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Speaker 4: Do we know if these are criminal charges or criminal

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Speaker 4: charging with suit?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 2: So they all charge charge that are being pursued, you know, Listen,

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Speaker 2: obviously no one's been arrested. Maybe the timing is by

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Speaker 2: some said to be suspicious or by others said to

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Speaker 2: be perfect timing. Is this just a world that had

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Speaker 2: very loose boundaries and those boundaries are now not okay?

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Speaker 2: And the more we talk about it, perhaps victims are

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Speaker 2: realizing that that wasn't okay. And to Courtney's earlier point,

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Speaker 2: maybe they're getting the courage right. Or is this, you know,

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Speaker 2: I meetiate a blast. I obviously I don't know the answer,

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Speaker 2: but I do find it all super interesting and I'm

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Speaker 2: so glad we get to talk about it.

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Speaker 5: So body, here's the information I have on what was

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Speaker 5: what is alleged? So the suit was filed, not just against.

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Speaker 3: The suit was filed. Yeah, so it's a civil suit.

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Speaker 5: Let's see see see what I'm saying, right, there's the

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Speaker 5: cops it was. I think you might be right that

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Speaker 5: it was civil. Let me, we'll need to check back.

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Speaker 2: Discussion on that is a real because civil would mean money,

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Speaker 2: right and criminal would mean jail time.

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Speaker 3: Right. So what's what's going on here? Alleged?

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Speaker 5: So it's against Justin also Sean Combs and the business

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Speaker 5: Combs Enterprises and bad Boy Entertainment, so that who who's

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Speaker 5: The suit was filed against a civil suit. It claims

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Speaker 5: sexual assault and battery, gender violence, and negligent supervision.

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Speaker 3: Okay yep.

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Speaker 5: And the lawsuit demands a jury trial and payment of damages,

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Speaker 5: including for quote future and past lost earnings.

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Speaker 3: It's a tough one.

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Speaker 4: Courtney would pasties was civil initially m hm, So we'll

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Speaker 4: have to keep an eye on it.

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Speaker 3: What do I think?

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Speaker 5: I think this sounds the details that have been given

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Speaker 5: out seem incredibly similar to stuff we have heard played

439
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,080
Speaker 5: out in the current trial, just because Justin said pops,

440
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 5: assuming that is true, I don't know that that's enough

441
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 5: to embroil Diddy.

442
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 3: That seems tenuous to me.

443
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 5: But again, I don't have many details, but I think

444
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,800
Speaker 5: it is a very believable story.

445
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 4: Of course, I mean, the detail, but with the masks

446
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 4: and whatnot, the details.

447
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,200
Speaker 3: Are very like.

448
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 2: Is that a thing I'm picturing eyes wide shut?

449
00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 3: Is that a thing.

450
00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,800
Speaker 2: Who's showing up to a Oh, I'm here to be

451
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:52,120
Speaker 2: discovered as a hip hop star? And I go into

452
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:55,399
Speaker 2: a room and everyone's wearing masks and they're giving me

453
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 2: something to drink, which drugs me. And then suddenly I'm

454
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 2: you know, part of an air quotes Gangbang? Is that

455
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,239
Speaker 2: the scariest thing you've ever heard? Or is that a

456
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 2: movie that we've watched? I don't know the answer, but again,

457
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 2: I'm really just, you know, grateful we get to discuss it.

458
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 4: Well, I am too, and I hope that you all

459
00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 4: stick around because coming up we're going to be talking

460
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 4: about the Long Island serial killer with the forensics expert

461
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:22,439
Speaker 4: Joseph Scott Morgan.

462
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:23,679
Speaker 3: I cannot best.

463
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,440
Speaker 4: In the business a thing, So stick around and we'll

464
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 4: get into that conversation, and then Joseph is going to

465
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,240
Speaker 4: be diving into the Suzanne Morphew case with us. This

466
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 4: is a really important case in near and dear to

467
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 4: my heart, we're going to be breaking down the forensic

468
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 4: evidence and the prosecution has on her husband Barry Morphew,

469
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 4: who has just been re arrested, and don't forget give

470
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 4: us a call at eight thirty one Crime with your

471
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 4: thoughts on any of tonight's stories. We really want to

472
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,400
Speaker 4: hear from you. We love the interaction. Keep it here,

473
00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 4: True Crime Tonight, stick around.

474
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

475
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,080
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here of course,

476
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: with body Movin, Courtney Armstrong and forensics expert and family

477
00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: to the show. Joseph Scott Morgan is here. He's going

478
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,439
Speaker 2: to talk to us about all things the Long Island

479
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 2: serial killer as well as a real disturbing case in Atlanta. Joseph,

480
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: we cannot get to you fast enough. Welcome, welcome back.

481
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 2: It's so good to have you here on this Sunday.

482
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:34,320
Speaker 2: And although on a.

483
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: Very grisly topic, you are a breath of fresh air. Yeah.

484
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:44,919
Speaker 5: So this is a trigger warning, so just please hear that.

485
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 5: We're going to discuss some disturbing specifics in the Rex

486
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 5: Humorman case. Some is of a violent and sexual nature,

487
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 5: so listener discretion strongly advised. The alleged Long Island serial killer,

488
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 5: Rex Huerman is alleged to have depositive four his victims

489
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 5: along a place called Gilgo Beach. It's along Ocean Parkway.

490
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 5: Two we're in a wooded area. One is in Manorville,

491
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 5: New York. And he is also suspected to be involved

492
00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 5: in eleven further deaths. Question mark if there's more, but

493
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:21,160
Speaker 5: that's that is what's alleged right now. And these murders

494
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 5: happened between nineteen ninety three and two thousand and eleven,

495
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 5: so he has now been linked to seven of the

496
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 5: eleven murders. And Joseph, we would love clarity. Tell us

497
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 5: about the victims. They get lost in the sauce quote Stephanie, who.

498
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 8: Were the visay to do? Unfortunately, and that's that's always

499
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 8: the case. Hey, I'm going to give you a big

500
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 8: reveal right now about myself in my career when when

501
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 8: I was practicing in Atlanta and New Orleans, I worked

502
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 8: several series of serial killings. These are all unrelated, they're

503
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 8: all different, Okay. The one commonality, and people have heard

504
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 8: this for years and years, So one commonality is that

505
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 8: every single series I ever worked involved sex workers. There's

506
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 8: no exception to that, and this is no different in

507
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 8: that sense, because they are the for in our population.

508
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,159
Speaker 8: I take exception with anybody that dismisses these women because

509
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,720
Speaker 8: they that many of them the end of their room,

510
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 8: all right, they have no other choice. It's people, you know.

511
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 8: People will many times say, oh, well, they always had

512
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 8: a choice. You haven't lived a life of these people

513
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:34,280
Speaker 8: of living and unfortunately they cross paths with a monster.

514
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:40,719
Speaker 8: And so with these victims, what we can say is

515
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:44,919
Speaker 8: that they were very vulnerable. They had this commonality in

516
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 8: these occupational choices that they made along the way at

517
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:53,680
Speaker 8: Hureman allegedly saw that and saw that as a way

518
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 8: to get to them so that he could satisfy this

519
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 8: urge that he has. And with all of these victoms,

520
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 8: the best that we can kind of come up with

521
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 8: is that some kind of arrangement had been made to

522
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 8: meet and you know, this idea of burner phones comes in.

523
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 8: But then we come back to what I refer to

524
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 8: as the hunting ground. The hunting ground is not really

525
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 8: a hunting ground. It's more like a deposit area. And

526
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 8: we can learn a lot about a serial perpetrator by

527
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,640
Speaker 8: virtue of this. They swim these areas that they are

528
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 8: very familiar with, These are the ultimate control freaks. They

529
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 8: want to be able to control every aspect of this

530
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,560
Speaker 8: life and this process that they're working through, acting out, doing,

531
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 8: interacting with these fantasies. Most of them have this incredible

532
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 8: fantasy life. That's why they take possession of many of

533
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 8: the elements or many items.

534
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 9: That these people.

535
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 8: You know, that's another thing that some of these women

536
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 8: were actually missing things. They were missing things and guess

537
00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 8: what the idea is that you can go back and

538
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,880
Speaker 8: you can take these things if you're a perpetrator and

539
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 8: live through them. BTK did it. There's a number of

540
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 8: other ones that have done it. They're trophy takers and

541
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 8: they're easy to steal from, and not just their things,

542
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 8: but obviously their wives. And when we think about where

543
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 8: human comes from this Long Island area and he knows

544
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 8: this roadway, you know, the one thing that really jumps

545
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 8: to mind are these four bodies that are found in

546
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 8: quick succession along the roadway where they're just kind of

547
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 8: deposited a long the way and they're found in and

548
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 8: you know what the wild thing about it is the

549
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 8: very first one is like out of the four, the

550
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 8: so called Golgol four, it's dumb luck You've got a

551
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 8: cop that's out there that is actually trying to train

552
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 8: his dog, and that dog hits on these remains absolutely

553
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 8: mind So.

554
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 4: Basically, he's going to put his the bodies the victims, right,

555
00:28:57,800 --> 00:28:59,959
Speaker 4: He's going to put them in an area he's familiar with,

556
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 4: because the worst thing that could happen is he gets

557
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 4: lost or you know, he goes down a dead end

558
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 4: and is trapped somehow, So he's going to be you know,

559
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 4: these people are going to and I say these people

560
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 4: by I mean the killer, they're going to put their

561
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 4: victims somewhere where they're absolutely familiar with.

562
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 3: Is what you're saying, right Like.

563
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, that's familiarity, and it's it's something because they want

564
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 8: to continue to do I don't know, you know, this

565
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 8: is maybe too exstential out of it. I've also wonder

566
00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 8: are they doing this? Are they doing this in order

567
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 8: to not be caught? Are they doing this so that

568
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 8: they can continue doing what they do? You see what

569
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 8: I'm saying, it's not that they're afraid of being caught,

570
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 8: it's the fact that they don't want it to come

571
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 8: to an end because they continue to play this out.

572
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 8: These four victims, in particularly the.

573
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:52,959
Speaker 9: Gil go for now.

574
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 8: There's several women obviously that we're talking about. One other

575
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 8: interesting thing is that when these women were found, they

576
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 8: were wrapped in burlap, and this is camouflage burlap.

577
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 3: It kind of lens into the weeds.

578
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, the burlap kind of blends into the scenery

579
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 4: there right, because it.

580
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 8: Does because this this particular type of burlap is camouflage.

581
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 8: You want to hear something interesting about burlap. Of course,

582
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 8: burlap is actually associated with the old term called sackcloth,

583
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 8: which if you ever went to Sunday school, sackcloth and

584
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 8: ashes their mourning people put sackcloth on. And I've always

585
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 8: found that interesting about these four particular things. It's like

586
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 8: it's like the cost of the poor wear sackcloth, and

587
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 8: he's using this to cover their bodies with and then

588
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 8: to posit them along this way. It always going to

589
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 8: chill up my spine relative to this.

590
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: Wow.

591
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, that's very interesting. I wonder if that has

592
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 4: any meaning. I wonder if that has any like religious meaning,

593
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 4: like is are they sacred or.

594
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 8: I don't know, because not all the bodies were wrapped

595
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 8: in burlap, but those those four actually were, and of

596
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 8: course it was camouflage and they were deposited there.

597
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:10,239
Speaker 4: Of course, you're listening to True Crime Tonight, where we

598
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,479
Speaker 4: talk true crime all the time. I'm body moving here

599
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 4: with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong, and we are here

600
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 4: with the wonderful Joseph Scott Morgan, and we are talking

601
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:22,479
Speaker 4: all things Rex Huerman and the Gilgo Beach murders. If

602
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 4: you want to weigh in, give us some call at

603
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 4: eight eight eight thirty one Crime or hit the talkbacks

604
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 4: on the iHeartRadio app.

605
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 3: We would love to hear from you.

606
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 5: I think it's such an interesting question if it could be,

607
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 5: you know, some kind of symbolism or something. But also

608
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 5: my thought is like when I've had my yard redone,

609
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 5: I feel like there's burr lap underneath that deals with

610
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 5: the vegetation. So it also would not be an odd

611
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 5: thing to see.

612
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, it wouldn't be. But the burlap that he's

613
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 8: using this is interesting. I was having a discussion with

614
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 8: someone I can't remember now, but you know, he is

615
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 8: allegedly an avid an Avid duck hunter, Okay, and I've

616
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 8: always wondered if he had used to being an Avid

617
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 8: duck hunter as kind of a cover for all of

618
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 8: this if he gets caught out in this area. Hey man,

619
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 8: I'm just going out taking a look where I'm going

620
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 8: to set up a blind. And he's got the camouflage burlap,

621
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 8: he's carrying this truck. You know, he can go out

622
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 8: there and kind of ease into the story about all

623
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 8: this and you know, talk to the cops. You know,

624
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 8: I've often thought about that as well. Or was it

625
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 8: just a matter of convenience. Well, you know, I've got

626
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 8: this stuff laying around, I'm going to use it. But

627
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 8: here's the thing about it. Burlap is very porous. So

628
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 8: if you're wrapping the body in burlap, what's your point

629
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:44,120
Speaker 8: Because you're not trying to keep blood or biological materials

630
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 8: off of everything, because it's going to seep through, you know,

631
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 8: I mean, Corney you had mentioned you see it in landscaping.

632
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 8: If you pick up a piece of burlap, you'll actually

633
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 8: have dirt that will actually fall through the bottom of it.

634
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 8: So it's not really practical if you're trying to blood

635
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 8: or any other kind of decompositional fluid or anything like this.

636
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 8: I just other than it's masking.

637
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 3: Something, I wonder what it means. I'm so curious. So

638
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 3: we should talk about the individual victims.

639
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: You had mentioned the Gilgo four, and is that Melissa Bartholomey.

640
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 4: She was found at Gilgo Beach in December of twenty

641
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 4: ten when an officer was on the training exercise. Right,

642
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 4: She was found wrapped in burlap. And then two days later,

643
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 4: Megan Waterman was found in Gilgo Beach wrapped in burlap.

644
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 4: And then two days after that, Amber Costello was found

645
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 4: wrapped in burlap, and then two days after that, Maureen.

646
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 3: Brainerd Barnes was found.

647
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 4: She was not found wrapped in burlap, but she was

648
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 4: found bound with the leather belts.

649
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 2: Right, So, leather belt with a buckle that allegedly ties

650
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 2: back to the accused, rex Humor Men's head, her initials

651
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: on it, on the buckle, and that allegedly is rex

652
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: Humor Men's grandfather.

653
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 3: If I'm not mistaken, right, is Joseph? Is that accurate?

654
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,040
Speaker 8: Yeah? Yeah, that is that. There's a familial attachment there,

655
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 8: and I find that quite interesting that this would you know,

656
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 8: you know, I don't know about you guys. My grandpa's

657
00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:14,120
Speaker 8: not around me long. If I had a belt that

658
00:34:14,200 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 8: was associated with my grandpa, I'm thinking this thing's going

659
00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:18,879
Speaker 8: to be sacred to me. I'm not going to take

660
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 8: it and just you know, use it in some manner

661
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 8: without it being significant. Now, I don't know, maybe I'm

662
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 8: reading too much into it. I don't think you are

663
00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:29,840
Speaker 8: for me, I get you right on. Yeah, it's just

664
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,799
Speaker 8: kind of an odd thing, you know, that that little bit,

665
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 8: you know.

666
00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 9: Kind of comes in.

667
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:36,719
Speaker 2: I have a question on that front, too, Joseph. You

668
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 2: guys know, I'm from the area, so I grew up

669
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 2: on Long Island, not too too far this will happened,

670
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 2: you know. Where the bodies were being discovered was in

671
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 2: Nassau County on Long Island, which is about forty five

672
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 2: minutes to an hour outside of New York City. I

673
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:54,120
Speaker 2: grew up a little further out east. But I'm telling you,

674
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: this is a beautiful place where again neighbors know one another.

675
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: It's it's a lovely place.

676
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: To grow up.

677
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 2: Shout out to Sachem High School. These things, you know,

678
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 2: literally don't happen there. And the idea that girls were

679
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: being found in burlap bags again and again and again,

680
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 2: and now we know that there was a potential torture

681
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: chamber allegedly found in this particular house where the accused

682
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: Rex Humerman and his wife and two children lived. Is

683
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: it possible that more than one of these women were

684
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: held at the same time and then disposed of?

685
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 9: I don't know.

686
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:34,759
Speaker 8: I think that I think a lot of that goes

687
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 8: to how rich is his fantasy life was and what

688
00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 8: he had constructed, because you know, it's never it's never

689
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 8: as simple as I'm just going to do one thing.

690
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 8: It has to be expanded out from that many times

691
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 8: for a lot of these folks, and so they're going

692
00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 8: to go very broadly. Did he hold two at a

693
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 8: tom did he have three at a time?

694
00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:53,879
Speaker 3: We're not done talking about less.

695
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 4: Give us a call at eighty eight eight thirty one

696
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 4: Crime Breaking News.

697
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: We have been following this closelyse the top of the hour,

698
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: there's been a sniper really in Quardelaine, Idaho, And we

699
00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 2: initially reported that there were two lost souls and we

700
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 2: didn't know what was happening next, and now we are

701
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:13,239
Speaker 2: hearing more.

702
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 5: Courtney tell us, Yeah, this just out. The International Association

703
00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:21,120
Speaker 5: of Firefighters. They have confirmed in a statement that two

704
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 5: of its members were killed by this sniper. There is

705
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:30,200
Speaker 5: another in surgery, and this all relates to several hours ago.

706
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 5: It was one twenty one Mountain time that firefighters responded

707
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 5: to a call for a brush fire when they arrived

708
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 5: a sniper or snipers. I think not everything is incredibly

709
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 5: clear right now started firing, and again there are also

710
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 5: unknown outside of those three unknown casualties in this moment,

711
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 5: So we will continue following. The news is literally coming

712
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,719
Speaker 5: out in bits and pieces, and it's incredibly.

713
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: Horrible, unbelievable.

714
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: And also, we know we were just discussing this earlier,

715
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 2: and if you miss any of the first hour, catch

716
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,840
Speaker 2: us right after on the podcast. Joseph back to the

717
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 2: serial killer. I know we were knee deep in it.

718
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I want to hear more about this memorialization of

719
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 4: the victims.

720
00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, well, for years, you know, people talk about the

721
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 8: concept of face covering. Face covering is something that we

722
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 8: see in homicide cases many times, where if somebody has

723
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 8: a connection with an individual that they have murdered, they'll

724
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,760
Speaker 8: covered face because they can't bear seeing that person's face,

725
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 8: even in death. And so you take that and kind

726
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,680
Speaker 8: of expand that a bit, and you begin to think

727
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,080
Speaker 8: about memorialization of the dead, and we can learn a

728
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 8: lot about killers and how they treat the dead. Sounds

729
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 8: kind of odd, I know, but how they if they're

730
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 8: using if they kill an individual and kind of toss

731
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 8: them like, we'll have what are called dumps where we

732
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 8: have body dumps where you'll find a person lying in

733
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 8: a ditch along inside of the road and their body's

734
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 8: twisted in an odd way. It's not that the perpetrator

735
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 8: position them that way. Many times, it's because they simply

736
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 8: wanted to put as much distance as they could between

737
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 8: them and the body as quickly as possible, and they

738
00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 8: roll them out of the car. That's different than if

739
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:17,359
Speaker 8: you walk the body back into the woods. You lay

740
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 8: them out, maybe you cover their face, but rocks or

741
00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 8: sticks or whatever it is. And so you know, you

742
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 8: go back to the so called Gilga four and you

743
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 8: see that they're wrapped. But we have other individuals that

744
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 8: have been found that are treated differently. We've got a

745
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 8: couple of bodies. We've got one young woman who's found

746
00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 8: literally and I hate to say this, this is terrible,

747
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 8: but she's found bent back at the knees and she's

748
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 8: been decapitated. And that's a horrible image. But we have

749
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 8: to look at that clinically and think about who is

750
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 8: this the same person doing this? Because this is a

751
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 8: lot different than wrapping a body up and depositing that

752
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 8: body on side of the road. Then you have another

753
00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 8: another individual that is found that has been dismembered. Now

754
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,360
Speaker 8: you begin to get into that and you begin to

755
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 8: think about, you know, how that looks, how it appears.

756
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 4: You're right about that. Well, later we're going to be

757
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 4: inviting you to ask questions about any of the cases

758
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 4: that we've covered tonight. He did he Suzan Morphew Lisk

759
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 4: Give us a call eight eight eight thirty one crime,

760
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 4: or use the talkbacks on the iHeart Radio app. Stay

761
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 4: right here True Crime Tonight.

762
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

763
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Lai Decker and

764
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 2: I head of KAT Studios, where we make true crime

765
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 2: podcasts and documentaries. And I get to do that with

766
00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 2: true crime producer and host Courtney Armstrong and crime analysts

767
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 2: and host Body move In and forensics expert Joseph Scott Morgan.

768
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 3: You'll also know him from the hit podcast Body Bags.

769
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 2: We've been talking a lot about the Long Island serial killers,

770
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,839
Speaker 2: so we will continue to do so. Boddy, where should

771
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: we start?

772
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:14,879
Speaker 4: Well, I kind of want to talk about more about

773
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,279
Speaker 4: the memorialization of the victims. So in the previous hour

774
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 4: we were talking with Joseph Scott Morgan about the significance

775
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 4: of how the bodies are left and meaning behind pretty

776
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,400
Speaker 4: much everything, right, and so I kind of Joseph, I

777
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 4: hate to do this to you, but can you kind

778
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 4: of go.

779
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 3: Over this again? Yeah, what is the what is memorialization?

780
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 3: What does it mean? And what are we talking about here?

781
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:40,879
Speaker 8: Well? I think probably for most people memorialization would come

782
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 8: down to the idea of honoring the dat I know

783
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 8: that sounds really bizarre when you're thinking about a serial killer,

784
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 8: but how it actually puts the value on the individual

785
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,200
Speaker 8: that has been the victim promisid You know, how much

786
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 8: value do they assign to that individual? And value sometimes

787
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,399
Speaker 8: is tied up in anything in life. You think about Todd, right,

788
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,240
Speaker 8: how much time did they spend with the body? Did

789
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 8: these individuals that have the psychothology going on, do they

790
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 8: find themselves invested enough with this individual to actually clean

791
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 8: a body. We've had that happen many times, redress the body,

792
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 8: perhaps take things from the body, and then to take

793
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 8: the body and almost prepare it in their own way,

794
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,879
Speaker 8: and then they have to select the spot for depositing

795
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,640
Speaker 8: the body. Is their goal to hide the body or

796
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 8: is their goal to have it kind of sequestered to

797
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 8: the point where somebody could stumble upon it. Because a

798
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 8: lot of these people that perpetrate these crimes work on

799
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 8: the idea of a shock factor. You know, they want

800
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 8: to shock people that come up and discover the remains.

801
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 8: Can you imagine walking down the road and you suddenly

802
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 8: find a decomposing individual vinyl side or this very shocking

803
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:50,280
Speaker 8: for them, right, And so there's meaning and literally everything

804
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 8: that they do said this memorialization of the dead. It's

805
00:41:53,239 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 8: not like they just drag them off and kind of

806
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,319
Speaker 8: throw them away like rubbish. They prepare the body, that

807
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,480
Speaker 8: wrap the body, and then they deposit the body. In

808
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 8: this case with go gofore he's allegedly going back to

809
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 8: the same spot. I mean there we within feet guys,

810
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 8: think about that, within feet of one another. That takes

811
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 8: a certain level of hutsbah in order to do that

812
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 8: courage if you will, I guess, however you define that,

813
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 8: you know, and to lay them up because this is

814
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 8: a big risk that he's taking to do that. So

815
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 8: I think a lot can be read into that was

816
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 8: he rushed? Do any of these cases give you the

817
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:31,560
Speaker 8: impression that it was something that was rushed, that you

818
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 8: know that maybe he was caught or thought he was

819
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 8: going to be caught so he had to get rid

820
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 8: of the body really quickly, or did he take his time?

821
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 8: Wouldn't it be interesting to be able to pair that

822
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 8: up with the travels of pureman's family perae body. You know,

823
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 8: where were they on these dates when these individuals last

824
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 8: were seen. Does that mean he took more time with

825
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 8: the body and what was done to the body in

826
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 8: its anti mortem which means pre death state as opposed

827
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 8: to the post morton state, Because that's another big thing here,

828
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,359
Speaker 8: and from a forensic standpoint, it's going.

829
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 9: To be invaluable.

830
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 8: Pay close attention here because we've heard this term come

831
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 8: up in several lease cases about dismemberment. Dismemberment. In my

832
00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 8: experience working cases like this, the one thing I'm looking

833
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 8: for are tool marks. What type of instrumentality was utilized

834
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 8: in order to take a body and literally butcher it.

835
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 8: As horrific as that is, you have to get past

836
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 8: it and look at it scientifically and say, are these

837
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 8: tool marks the same on this body as they are

838
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,880
Speaker 8: on the other body is an individual using a chainsaw,

839
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,720
Speaker 8: a circular saw, a hack saw, carpenter.

840
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 3: Saw, and Joseph.

841
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 8: All of this.

842
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 5: Speaks to pattern I would imagine when trying whether it's

843
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 5: the tools or similarities. For example, in the Go Go four,

844
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 5: Melissa Bartholomey, Megan Waterman, Amber Costello, and Marine Brainerd Barnes,

845
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 5: they were all found within days of each other, and yes,

846
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,400
Speaker 5: three were found wrapped in Verlin. Maureen Brainerd Barnes was

847
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 5: not found wrapped in burr lap, but was found within

848
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 5: the same period, but she was found with leather belt

849
00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 5: that potentially allegedly ties back to Humerman.

850
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 3: So that's the four.

851
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 5: And then going back to the earliest victim who was found,

852
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 5: this was in nineteen ninety three and this was Sandra

853
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 5: Caristia and her remains were found by hunters, Like you said,

854
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 5: imagine just you're going out to have a fun hunt day.

855
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 5: They found this poor woman. It was in a wooded

856
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:32,840
Speaker 5: area in log Island and it was about sixty miles

857
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 5: from Gilgo Beach and it was on her body that

858
00:44:35,600 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 5: hairs were found that linked her to Humerman all these

859
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 5: years later.

860
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 3: So yeah, Stephanie, I was.

861
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,880
Speaker 2: Just going to say just one little shout out to

862
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: the moms of these victims, because honestly, this one unsolved.

863
00:44:50,280 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 3: I'm from the area for years.

864
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 2: Honestly, if it wasn't for the moms of these victims

865
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: keeping them alive in the media's eyes, they would and

866
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 2: they band together at some point and really rallied because

867
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: police were not connecting these dots for whatever reason. And

868
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,360
Speaker 2: there's so much speculation around this, but regardless, in my heart,

869
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,799
Speaker 2: I believe these would not have been solved murders if

870
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:19,839
Speaker 2: not for the loving parents and mothers specifically that came

871
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: together to fight for their daughter's justice. Sorry, Joseph, I

872
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,359
Speaker 2: just had to throw that in because it's so unique.

873
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,279
Speaker 8: So I concur I couldcur completely with you. Families play

874
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,960
Speaker 8: such a such a big part rather in solving hamsas

875
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 8: many times, particularly those that are they're open, you know,

876
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 8: not just the idea of getting justice, but just just

877
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:41,840
Speaker 8: giving a inertia to the case to move it along.

878
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 8: And here's the odd thing about it is, it's not

879
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:47,200
Speaker 8: like we're in the city. Okay, we're out of Long Island.

880
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,000
Speaker 8: How many of these cases does it take until a

881
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 8: light bulb goes off above your head and says, hey, look,

882
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 8: we've got these similarities that are occurring out here. How

883
00:45:56,120 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 8: is it that nobody's putting.

884
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 9: Two or two together?

885
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 8: And you know, again, jurisdictionally, you might have some divide there.

886
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,920
Speaker 8: You might not have as much connectivity because one the

887
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 8: left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

888
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 8: And also people retire, people move on with their lives,

889
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 8: and some of these things are lost.

890
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 9: To the this time.

891
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 4: Well, all the victims were from different different areas too.

892
00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 4: They weren't all from they weren't from Long Island, so

893
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 4: you know they're from the city, right. I think that

894
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 4: has I think it has a little bit to do

895
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 4: with it too, because you know, Long Island's just you know,

896
00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 4: sitting out there. They don't realize they've got these four

897
00:46:29,239 --> 00:46:32,960
Speaker 4: victims laying in gog Beach right in Manhattan, You're right,

898
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,279
Speaker 4: and wherever else they're they're missing people I don't know.

899
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, And that's interesting also this bit that these women,

900
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 8: many of them did, originate from the city and then

901
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 8: they're they're brought out to an area which the city

902
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,279
Speaker 8: toilers in New York considered to be very rural. You know,

903
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 8: we're going to Long Island. It's like a huge trip there.

904
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 8: It's like a part in the rural area, but the

905
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 8: point of origin, the genesis for this is the city

906
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 8: and they're coming out there. The one commonality is that

907
00:47:00,680 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 8: they're on the same trade, right, and.

908
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: They're all twenty two to twenty seven years old too.

909
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,160
Speaker 3: They're all fairly young women.

910
00:47:07,200 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 8: And petit yeah, and they're petite.

911
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 3: Giant.

912
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:17,040
Speaker 4: He's a giant man, right, He's humongous, like he's really

913
00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 4: it's like six seven or something.

914
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 3: How tall is he? I can't remember. He's tall.

915
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 5: He's incredibly tall and imposing and an eyewitness we can

916
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,760
Speaker 5: talk about later described him, I believe as an ogre.

917
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 5: You are listening to true crime tonight. We're talking true

918
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 5: crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong with Body Move

919
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 5: and Stephanie Leidecker, and gracing our presence tonight is forensic

920
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 5: expert Joseph Scott Morgan. We'd really love you to join

921
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 5: the conversation, so give us a call. We're at eighty

922
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 5: eight three to one crime or send us a talkback

923
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 5: super easy on the iHeart app. You go to the

924
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,960
Speaker 5: right hand corner, press on the microphone and then you

925
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 5: are on the show. So Joseph, we're talking about commonalities obviously,

926
00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 5: and we started touching. You started touching earlier. On decapitation, So,

927
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:04,879
Speaker 5: Jessica Taylor. She was found in two thousand and three,

928
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 5: again an unsuspecting woman walking her dog. This was in Manorville,

929
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:12,919
Speaker 5: New York. And the poor woman she had been decapitated.

930
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 5: Both of her arms had been severed, bloody elbows, and

931
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 5: it's had two had been obliterated by a sharp object.

932
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 5: Back to you talking about objects. So how rare or

933
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 5: not is it for the same murderer allegedly to choose

934
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 5: to decapitate and do this to one woman and not

935
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:32,760
Speaker 5: the others.

936
00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:38,319
Speaker 8: I don't know that I can necessarily speak about frequency here,

937
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,000
Speaker 8: but I think that one thing that is of note

938
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 8: court in the idea here is that it's messy business.

939
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 8: I know that seems rather an obvious statement. However, you

940
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 8: have to have privacy, you have to have access, assuming

941
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 8: that electrical instruments are used, you have to have access

942
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 8: to electricity. This is not something you're going to do

943
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 8: along the side of the road. You have to have time,

944
00:49:05,239 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 8: and it's a developed skill set. As gruesome as that sound,

945
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 8: you know, people that walk in that do butchery, for instance,

946
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 8: you know for a living, they just don't do that

947
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:21,240
Speaker 8: the first day. It's a learning curve, So it would

948
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 8: take time in order to develop a skill set like this,

949
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:25,839
Speaker 8: and you have to have the want to in order

950
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 8: to be it to do it. A lot of people

951
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,720
Speaker 8: think that they could do it. A lot of people

952
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 8: have said, well, yeah, it's very simple.

953
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 9: No, it's not.

954
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 8: Because most of the people that are caught as a

955
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:40,439
Speaker 8: result of physical evidence that's left behind that results from

956
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 8: a dismemberment, many times it's because they don't understand how

957
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 8: to do it the most efficient way. They don't know

958
00:49:46,200 --> 00:49:49,239
Speaker 8: the first thing about human anatomy, what's the easiest way

959
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 8: to go about that? And these are the sort of

960
00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 8: things we think about in forensics many times. I think

961
00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 8: that probably profilers think about that as well. But you

962
00:49:57,280 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 8: need time and you need privacy, And that case in

963
00:50:00,360 --> 00:50:03,080
Speaker 8: particular is kind of a touchstone in all of this.

964
00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:05,880
Speaker 8: Where did he do this? How long did he have

965
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 8: with his body to go this deep into interesting?

966
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,279
Speaker 5: And that goes back to what you were saying with

967
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 5: you know, potentially mapping out Humerman's family's travels and how

968
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,400
Speaker 5: long he had if maybe his whole family was on

969
00:50:18,440 --> 00:50:21,359
Speaker 5: an extended trip when one of these poor women were

970
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 5: taking end of it, it.

971
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 8: Has to be yeah, and again remember the checklist. The

972
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 8: check is one thing that you need to always.

973
00:50:28,880 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 9: Keep in mind.

974
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,239
Speaker 8: Is that statement, that comment that he made playtime And

975
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 8: that's always going to ring in my ears, you know,

976
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 8: the first time I heard somebody talk about it after

977
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:44,399
Speaker 8: that list was was released. And what does playtime mean? Well,

978
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 8: playtime for us might mean something completely different to somebody

979
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:51,680
Speaker 8: that engages in this kind of averant behavior, like it

980
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 8: could be something that is so so out of bounds

981
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:58,040
Speaker 8: that we can't imagine it. But for him it could

982
00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 8: very well be his own personal reaction.

983
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 5: Can you briefly remind me of the checklist? What are

984
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,719
Speaker 5: you referring to? Was that something that Huerman had.

985
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 8: A Well, it's something that was recovered digitally, you know,

986
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 8: that had been banked by him, and it's a checklist,

987
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 8: you know, like the older I've gotten a knee checklist

988
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 8: in my life, so just to make sure I'm going

989
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 8: to cover everything. But for somebody like this, it's trying

990
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 8: to dodge dodge the police or trying to keep them

991
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 8: off sent so that he doesn't. I mean, we're talking

992
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 8: about we're talking about mid level forensic skills here, where

993
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 8: he's trying to defeat anything that we might do going

994
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 8: out to the scene to recover evidence. He's trying to

995
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 8: defeat that preemptively. And so that's how much thought he's

996
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 8: putting into wearing gloves, cleaning up after himself, all that

997
00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 8: sort of.

998
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, real, I mean, I don't even know what to

999
00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 5: say beyond a real life dexter.

1000
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 3: Do not forget.

1001
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 5: If you miss any part of the show, you can

1002
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 5: always catch the podcast and we want to hear from you.

1003
00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 5: Give us a call. We're at eighty eight three on Crime,

1004
00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:04,200
Speaker 5: or you can get with us on socials. We are

1005
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,520
Speaker 5: at True Crime Tonight's show on TikTok and Instagram and

1006
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:11,759
Speaker 5: True Crime Tonight on Facebook. But now body, let's get

1007
00:52:11,760 --> 00:52:12,160
Speaker 5: into it.

1008
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:16,759
Speaker 4: Okay, So I want to talk about Suzanne Morphew. So

1009
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:22,239
Speaker 4: let me so, Barry Morphew, this is such a complicated

1010
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 4: story to get into. It's a it's a really big

1011
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 4: case and we're definitely going to be talking about it

1012
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 4: a lot. Suzanne Morphew's husband, Suzanne Morphuw, went missing in

1013
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 4: twenty twenty.

1014
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:32,439
Speaker 3: Sorry, I have to get this out.

1015
00:52:32,480 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 4: She went missing in twenty twenty and her husband was

1016
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 4: arrested in twenty twenty one for her murder. Okay, and

1017
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 4: he was let go in twenty twenty two because you know,

1018
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 4: the prosecutors didn't have enough evidence and they were not comfortable,

1019
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 4: you know, moving forward with the case, and there was

1020
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 4: some tomfoolery going on with the prosecutor, so they dismissed

1021
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 4: the charges without prejudice. Okay, so he could be recharged again, Okay,

1022
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,399
Speaker 4: So he got They they found her body a year

1023
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,359
Speaker 4: after that, in September of twenty three September of twenty

1024
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:08,280
Speaker 4: twenty three, and charges have been re established for her husband,

1025
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 4: Barry more few Okay. So it's kind of a long, complicated,

1026
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,720
Speaker 4: you know, timeline. But I want to talk to Joseph,

1027
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,600
Speaker 4: thank god he's here, because I want to know what

1028
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,800
Speaker 4: makes this different this time around? What makes us different

1029
00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 4: this time around from Barrie's first rest. We know that

1030
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 4: the body, right that clearly that's the big difference, right,

1031
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 4: But what is the most compelling forensic details that we

1032
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 4: know about Joseph that you can tell us that led prosecutors,

1033
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:40,960
Speaker 4: you think, to re establishing charges for him?

1034
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,360
Speaker 8: Two pieces here. I think, first off, they have a

1035
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:50,040
Speaker 8: team of forensic anthropologists, a team that consists of forensic anthropologists,

1036
00:53:50,120 --> 00:53:53,960
Speaker 8: person that studies human skelet or remains, a forensic entomologist

1037
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:58,600
Speaker 8: that studies bugs, and a forensic botanist discub that you know,

1038
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:03,439
Speaker 8: understands the local flora, all right, because in forensics, we'll

1039
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 8: look for pollen deposited on clothing, like, for instance, where

1040
00:54:07,280 --> 00:54:10,319
Speaker 8: Suzanne's remains were found, she has a particular type of

1041
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,400
Speaker 8: pollen that's not associated with that area. That gives you

1042
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 8: that's a clue for them, you know, try to understand

1043
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 8: what the orgy, you know, why does she have this

1044
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:20,959
Speaker 8: particular type of pollen on her clothing. So you bring

1045
00:54:21,040 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 8: all of these into the mix. But the conclusion that

1046
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:27,239
Speaker 8: they arrived at relative to her remains, which were in

1047
00:54:27,239 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 8: a state of skeletonization or had been skeletonized, was that

1048
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 8: more than likely her body did not arrive in the

1049
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 8: condition in which it was found in this location. Just

1050
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 8: let that sink in for a second. In other words,

1051
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 8: that means that she may, according to them, may have

1052
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 8: been allowed to decompose somewhere else and then she was

1053
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 8: redeposited in this location.

1054
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 4: In fact, now that you're speaking about that, we have

1055
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 4: a talk back regarding this case.

1056
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:56,919
Speaker 3: Can we go and play that talk about?

1057
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 2: Yes?

1058
00:54:57,120 --> 00:54:59,040
Speaker 8: Sure, Hey, this is Judy in Vegas.

1059
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 3: I have a question about the Colorado case.

1060
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 5: Does the forendics show that the mom was moved after

1061
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 5: her body decomposed?

1062
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:10,719
Speaker 3: I think that'd be interesting to figure out.

1063
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 4: So she asked that was She asked if does the

1064
00:55:14,239 --> 00:55:18,319
Speaker 4: forensics tell us if the body was moved after she decomposed?

1065
00:55:18,600 --> 00:55:20,960
Speaker 4: So it's kind of what you were just talking about, right, Joseph,

1066
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 4: she was moved?

1067
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 3: Correct?

1068
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, and great question, Jody, You're right, And I think

1069
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 8: that that's look that that's going to play into this

1070
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 8: case as it begins to develop.

1071
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,600
Speaker 4: You know, I wonder when he got released, when the

1072
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 4: when the charges were dropped, did he get a wild

1073
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 4: inclination in his head to move her body?

1074
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:44,040
Speaker 8: Yeah, because you do have people that will go out

1075
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 8: and remove remains. I've had cases where people have had

1076
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 8: dug up remains that they buried and moved them to

1077
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 8: another location. That's not fiction. It's not like you see.

1078
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:54,240
Speaker 9: That on a movie.

1079
00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:01,240
Speaker 2: He has children with her, like, this is the mother

1080
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 2: of his children who was allegedly out on mother's day

1081
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,360
Speaker 2: of all days. Yeah, and what he faked a bike

1082
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:13,840
Speaker 2: accident and then suddenly decided to dispose of her body,

1083
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 2: get arrested, get released.

1084
00:56:16,719 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 3: And then he went and changed the.

1085
00:56:18,920 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: Location or dug her up or redressed her like. All

1086
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:26,680
Speaker 2: of that just sounds so unbelievably sick.

1087
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:30,160
Speaker 3: It's hard to wrap our brains around it does.

1088
00:56:30,280 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 8: And I got to tell you, for me personally, from

1089
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,920
Speaker 8: a forensics perspective, I am just as interested in the

1090
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 8: location where she was initially located in I am relative

1091
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:42,160
Speaker 8: to where she was found. And I think that there's

1092
00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 8: potential to find some evidence, some residual evidence at that location.

1093
00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:50,839
Speaker 8: And one other thing I think is important here, how

1094
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 8: intact worthy skeletal remains, because you know, with skeletal remains

1095
00:56:55,360 --> 00:56:57,839
Speaker 8: we lose bits and pieces. We've got all of these

1096
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,759
Speaker 8: bothes in our body structure of the hands alone, there's

1097
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:03,839
Speaker 8: a chance you can lose things along the way.

1098
00:57:04,160 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 4: Oh gosh, it's terrible to think about. This is true

1099
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 4: crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm Body Moved, and I'm here

1100
00:57:09,239 --> 00:57:11,840
Speaker 4: with Courtney Armstrong and Stephanie Leidecker, and we are talking

1101
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:15,680
Speaker 4: with the lovely Joseph Scott Morgan about the Suzanne Morphy murder.

1102
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 3: If you have a.

1103
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,200
Speaker 4: Question or opinion, give us a call at eighty eight

1104
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 4: thirty one Crime, or tell us your thoughts on the

1105
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:24,440
Speaker 4: talkbacks using the heart radio app Joseph. One thing we

1106
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 4: talked about this past week was some new information about

1107
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 4: a needle cap that was found in the dryer. What

1108
00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 4: do you think that says about him? What does that

1109
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 4: tell us?

1110
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:33,800
Speaker 3: Do you think?

1111
00:57:34,480 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 9: I don't know.

1112
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 8: I think you need defense. Attorney would say, so what,

1113
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 8: he's got a needle cap in his pocket. You know

1114
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 8: that in his clothes. You know that are found in

1115
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 8: the dryer. He found it in the yard. He just

1116
00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 8: picked it up. Doesn't like trash and jar Okay, so

1117
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 8: all right, that's the story you're going with. But you

1118
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 8: think about this, this compound that's being utilized, which, by

1119
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 8: the way, correct me if I'm wrong. You guys might

1120
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 8: have a bit more insight. I think he was like

1121
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 8: one of the few people in state that actually had

1122
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 8: access to this and the one may have been brought

1123
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,280
Speaker 8: in from somewhere else, This bam compound and nothing for

1124
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 8: everybody with the details that you've got a drug compound

1125
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 8: that literally can be used as it's used in anesthesia,

1126
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:22,360
Speaker 8: anti anxiety, and also like a muscle relaxing. She anybody

1127
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 8: that's hit with the stuff, and it's made to use

1128
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:28,520
Speaker 8: for medium sized game, you know, like a mule deer

1129
00:58:28,800 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 8: or a white tail.

1130
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 9: I guess you could use it on an help you

1131
00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 9: had to.

1132
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:38,280
Speaker 8: This little lady. She's not gonna she doesn't have someboll's

1133
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 8: chance in hell if if this is injected in or

1134
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 8: she's going out. Now I'm not saying it's lethal. What

1135
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,120
Speaker 8: I am saying though, she's going to go into that

1136
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 8: deep dark place that we can all identify with if we,

1137
00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 8: any of us, have ever had surgery you have any

1138
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 8: control over it, that's what.

1139
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 9: Would have happened.

1140
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 8: And the idea that there was a dark gun which

1141
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:00,240
Speaker 8: this is administered with, you know, like you could to

1142
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 8: animal or a dark gun functioning dark gun. Yeah, that

1143
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 8: was there. And it can also be administered with a

1144
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 8: hypodermic needle. It doesn't have to go directly into the

1145
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 8: venus system. It can actually go uh its eye am

1146
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 8: which is intramuscular, which means it can be ejected injected

1147
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 8: right into say the fleshy part of the body like

1148
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 8: the buttock, and then you're going down, it's going to

1149
00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 8: be lights out. So the fact that he had that

1150
00:59:29,440 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 8: needle cap is I don't I'm not going to say

1151
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 8: it's damning, but it's a if you think about a

1152
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:36,960
Speaker 8: jigsaw puzzle, it might be one of those little pieces

1153
00:59:36,960 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 8: that where's that other piece? Oh?

1154
00:59:38,760 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 9: Here it is.

1155
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 8: It's the needle cap and that slips into the spot.

1156
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 3: And now she would be unconscious, is that right? She wouldn't.

1157
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 4: She wouldn't have any consciousness of her like, she wouldn't

1158
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 4: be like paralyzed with thoughts.

1159
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:55,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, that's an excellent question, I think I've heard

1160
00:59:55,520 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 8: again looking at Yeah, I don't. I don't know either,

1161
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,080
Speaker 8: because we don't know what kind of DOSAG may have

1162
01:00:01,160 --> 01:00:03,680
Speaker 8: been administered. And if I can just kind of chime

1163
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 8: in on this very briefly, this BAM compound has actually

1164
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 8: been found in her skeletal remains. Now understand this because

1165
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 8: there's gonna be a lot of questions about this. Did

1166
01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:18,439
Speaker 8: he O d her allegedly? Well, we can't determine that

1167
01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 8: with skeletal remains. All we can do with this is

1168
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 8: say we have what are called in toxic forensic toxicology,

1169
01:00:24,600 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 8: you have what's called a qualitative amount and a quantitative amount.

1170
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 8: We can give you a qualitative say, if you do

1171
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 8: a core sample of the bone and you spin it down,

1172
01:00:35,680 --> 01:00:38,280
Speaker 8: you can actually say, okay, this compound is there, but

1173
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 8: I can't tell you how much is there. In medicine,

1174
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 8: you have things like therapeutic levels and lethal levels, and

1175
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 8: that's a quantitative amount. We can merely qualify it. I

1176
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,400
Speaker 8: don't know if anybody that can actually say that they

1177
01:00:52,440 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 8: can quantitate that amount. Maybe somebody has a magic insight

1178
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:58,240
Speaker 8: into that, but as far as I know, you can't

1179
01:00:58,280 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 8: put a specific number on.

1180
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 4: But what we do know is that the medicine metabolized,

1181
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 4: which means and correct me if I'm wrong, Joseph, because

1182
01:01:05,720 --> 01:01:07,720
Speaker 4: I need it. But what that means is that she

1183
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 4: was alive long enough for her body to process some

1184
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 4: of the drug, right.

1185
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, yes, absolutely right, that it was an uptake into

1186
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:18,400
Speaker 8: her system and it actually made I think, I think

1187
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:19,959
Speaker 8: probably into the bone barrow.

1188
01:01:20,200 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 3: Oh god.

1189
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,240
Speaker 4: So I wonder if he knocked her out and like

1190
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 4: transported her somewhere, you know, maybe to the hotel room

1191
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 4: or the bleach. So he was supposed to be at work,

1192
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 4: and he was at this hotel room, and when workers

1193
01:01:33,520 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 4: I think went into the hotel room or the police

1194
01:01:35,320 --> 01:01:38,040
Speaker 4: or somebody went into the hotel room. It smelled of bleach, right,

1195
01:01:38,320 --> 01:01:39,160
Speaker 4: so I wonder if.

1196
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:40,160
Speaker 8: He transported her.

1197
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, oh that's horrific.

1198
01:01:42,880 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 4: Stick around next because we're going to be talking more

1199
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 4: with Joseph Scott Morgan. And there's an unsolved murder in

1200
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,680
Speaker 4: Atlanta's Piedmont Park and don't forget give us a call

1201
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 4: at eight eight eight thirty one Crime with your thoughts

1202
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 4: on any of Tonight's stories. Keep it here some kind.

1203
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 2: Of welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're

1204
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker, and

1205
01:02:14,160 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: I head up KT Studios where we make true crime

1206
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,400
Speaker 2: podcasts and documentaries and I get to do that with

1207
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 2: crime analyst Body move In and crime producer and host

1208
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:28,280
Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong. And we are here with forensics expert Joseph

1209
01:02:28,320 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 2: Scott Morgan, who's breaking.

1210
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,360
Speaker 3: All scary things down for us. Listen.

1211
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 2: If you want to join us, please call eight eight

1212
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 2: eight three one Crime, or you could always hit us

1213
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 2: up on our socials at True Crime Tonight's show on

1214
01:02:40,480 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram, or at True Crime Tonight on Facebook,

1215
01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 2: and you could also do a talk back if you

1216
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 2: download the iHeart app. You just push the right hand

1217
01:02:51,640 --> 01:02:54,040
Speaker 2: button and then you just leave a little message and

1218
01:02:54,080 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 2: then we'll play that message in the show and then

1219
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 2: we can respond to real time. So, Joseph, I know

1220
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 2: you've been following closely a case in Atlanta, very disturbing,

1221
01:03:03,880 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 2: So trigger alert for all, Joseph, take it away.

1222
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:12,440
Speaker 8: Yeah, So this case is something that has been ongoing.

1223
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,320
Speaker 8: This is an unsolved hom side that I'm referring to,

1224
01:03:15,440 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 8: and this goes all the way back to July twenty eighth,

1225
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 8: twenty twenty one, and obviously we're approaching I guess the

1226
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 8: fourth anniversary of arguably one of the most single horrific

1227
01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:32,880
Speaker 8: homicides in the Atlanta area in years and years. And

1228
01:03:32,920 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 8: what I'm talking about is the murder of a young

1229
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 8: lady named Katie Janice, who is out walking her dog

1230
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:43,680
Speaker 8: in a location that's very familiar to people that are

1231
01:03:43,720 --> 01:03:46,640
Speaker 8: from the Atlanta area. It's called Piedmont Park. It's kind

1232
01:03:46,640 --> 01:03:49,160
Speaker 8: of like I think Atlanta's like to refer to it

1233
01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 8: as their central park if you will. Weekends, you know,

1234
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 8: you've got families out there with kids walking dogs, people jogging,

1235
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:00,480
Speaker 8: all these sorts of things. But on this particular night,

1236
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 8: Katie had gone out with her.

1237
01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:04,160
Speaker 9: Dog to take the dog for a walk.

1238
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:07,479
Speaker 8: She'd gotten off work she worked as a bartender. And

1239
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 8: the next thing you know, Katie is found along the

1240
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:16,440
Speaker 8: pathway there in Piedmont Park and she has over fifty

1241
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 8: five sharp force injuries to her body. Her dog has

1242
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 8: been brutally stabbed to death as well. And this is

1243
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 8: if I remember correctly. This dog is a pit bull.

1244
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,600
Speaker 8: So there's so much to be red. Yeah, they are

1245
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 8: in other pit bulls that are sweet, you know, sweet,

1246
01:04:38,880 --> 01:04:40,760
Speaker 8: and a lot of it depends upon the die. I

1247
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:45,560
Speaker 8: think it's like any dog, you know, real nasty reputation.

1248
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:48,000
Speaker 8: But yeah, they can be just little angels. I'm a

1249
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:52,640
Speaker 8: big dog person, so yeah, I mean, and to me,

1250
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 8: when you can kill a pit bull, you can get

1251
01:04:55,800 --> 01:04:58,480
Speaker 8: close enough in with a knife to do that. I

1252
01:04:58,480 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 8: don't know. To me, that's as was there a familiarity

1253
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 8: between the perpetrator and the dog, because you know, if

1254
01:05:06,000 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 8: you're out with your master, dogs out with their masters,

1255
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 8: they're going to protect their masks.

1256
01:05:10,200 --> 01:05:13,520
Speaker 2: You're going to protect their master at all costs. Yeah,

1257
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:14,959
Speaker 2: that's a getting they.

1258
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,480
Speaker 8: Will, Yeah, and the dog was found a bit of

1259
01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 8: a distance, not along all ways away from Katie. And

1260
01:05:21,880 --> 01:05:24,720
Speaker 8: still to this day they don't have any or at

1261
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:28,040
Speaker 8: least they have not released any kind of firm answers here.

1262
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,200
Speaker 8: But I think one of the things that this really

1263
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:35,120
Speaker 8: speaks to is the degree to which she suffered. This

1264
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 8: is a torturous death, because it's not like it's merely

1265
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,320
Speaker 8: notice I said that she sustained fifty sharp horse injuries.

1266
01:05:42,360 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 8: I didn't say stabloids. There were stab wounds, but these

1267
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 8: are also co mingled with incised wounds.

1268
01:05:49,840 --> 01:05:50,080
Speaker 9: Either.

1269
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 8: In my opinion, at least, there's there's a strong element

1270
01:05:55,360 --> 01:06:00,440
Speaker 8: here of disfigurement, of sexualization. The breasts have been sliced

1271
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 8: and the face has been sliced all the way down

1272
01:06:03,880 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 8: to the gum line, if you will. She was disfigured.

1273
01:06:08,400 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 8: And I think probably the worst part about this when

1274
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 8: they finally did the exam on her body, it was

1275
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:20,480
Speaker 8: discovered that a word had actually been carved into her

1276
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:26,520
Speaker 8: chest and abdomen. And again that's you know, who does

1277
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 8: that in public? This is a public area. Anybody could

1278
01:06:29,680 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 8: have been walking by who feels that comfortable doing this

1279
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 8: level of mutilation, That we're talking about here.

1280
01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 9: And still still this thing is not solved.

1281
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 8: That we there have been really no recent updates. As

1282
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:48,200
Speaker 8: a matter of fact, the police are still saying to

1283
01:06:48,240 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 8: this day, if you have any information, police calls as

1284
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:52,320
Speaker 8: the Atlanta Homicide Division.

1285
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:53,200
Speaker 3: Oh my goodness.

1286
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:53,480
Speaker 6: Right.

1287
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 5: There have been extensive investigations by the Atlanta Police and

1288
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:02,400
Speaker 5: the FBI and the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. And like

1289
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 5: you said, Joseph, with that, the case is unsolved, no arrest,

1290
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 5: but still active and they are now focusing on DNA evidence.

1291
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,560
Speaker 5: They're hoping some new lead will present itself in the case.

1292
01:07:13,960 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 3: I sure hope.

1293
01:07:14,600 --> 01:07:17,360
Speaker 4: So this is your crime tonight on iHeartRadio. I'm Boddy

1294
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,320
Speaker 4: Movin and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong.

1295
01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:24,400
Speaker 4: We're joined by Joseph Scott Morgan, and we're talking about

1296
01:07:24,600 --> 01:07:26,400
Speaker 4: Katie Jenesi's unsolved.

1297
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:27,560
Speaker 3: Murder out of Atlanta, Georgia.

1298
01:07:27,680 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 4: If you have a question or opinion, give us a

1299
01:07:29,320 --> 01:07:31,960
Speaker 4: call at eighty eight eight thirty on crime, or tell

1300
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:35,080
Speaker 4: us your thoughts on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.

1301
01:07:35,320 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 3: So, Joseph, the word that.

1302
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 4: Was carved into her abdomen, it was fat.

1303
01:07:42,800 --> 01:07:46,960
Speaker 3: Is that right? Yes, fat, And they're sure that it

1304
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 3: was fat.

1305
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1306
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:51,800
Speaker 8: Yeah. As a matter of fact, the pathologist that did

1307
01:07:51,840 --> 01:07:57,120
Speaker 8: the examination goes to great length to describe this, and

1308
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 8: I hate to even mention this, but guys, there's hemorrhage

1309
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:04,440
Speaker 8: in dwelling in these injuries, and that means that she

1310
01:08:04,600 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 8: was live while this was being done. Yeah, so, or

1311
01:08:09,240 --> 01:08:12,280
Speaker 8: at least she was in We've got three stages in death.

1312
01:08:12,360 --> 01:08:15,800
Speaker 8: We've got anti mortem, which means before death, and everybody's

1313
01:08:15,840 --> 01:08:19,120
Speaker 8: heard post mortal, but there's also a stage called perry mortal,

1314
01:08:19,200 --> 01:08:19,599
Speaker 8: which is.

1315
01:08:19,520 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 9: That kind of twilight area where you.

1316
01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 8: Can still have hemorrhage into wounds and that sort of thing.

1317
01:08:25,200 --> 01:08:30,000
Speaker 8: And yeah, there's indwelling hemorrhage in these wounds. That goes

1318
01:08:30,040 --> 01:08:33,280
Speaker 8: to tell you how sickening this is and how sick

1319
01:08:33,400 --> 01:08:41,240
Speaker 8: this act was a park and again and Peedmont Park, Yeah,

1320
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:45,840
Speaker 8: very popular, probably the most well known park in Atlanta,

1321
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:49,800
Speaker 8: and a lot of foot traffic through their guys, And look,

1322
01:08:49,840 --> 01:08:52,040
Speaker 8: I used to work in Atlanta with a medical examiner.

1323
01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:54,839
Speaker 8: I was an EMMY investigator there for many, many years,

1324
01:08:54,880 --> 01:08:58,280
Speaker 8: and I've worked cases in Piedmont Park, but most of

1325
01:08:58,280 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 8: the time that had to do with. If it was

1326
01:09:00,520 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 8: a homicide, it would be like, you know, some homeless

1327
01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:07,439
Speaker 8: guy that might stab somebody and then they would flee.

1328
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:10,639
Speaker 8: You know, we talked earlier. Do you remember what we

1329
01:09:10,640 --> 01:09:13,720
Speaker 8: were talking about with Jurman Earlier? I mentioned about the

1330
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:20,040
Speaker 8: element of time. Somebody hovered over her for a protracted

1331
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:23,600
Speaker 8: period of time perpetrating this. This was not like a

1332
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:25,720
Speaker 8: quick one off event. You're going to run off with

1333
01:09:25,800 --> 01:09:28,599
Speaker 8: some kind of valuables. No, that's not what happened. We're

1334
01:09:28,600 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 8: talking about fifty individual wounds here, all right, and to

1335
01:09:32,840 --> 01:09:35,799
Speaker 8: boot we're talking about the animal as well. This takes

1336
01:09:36,040 --> 01:09:41,360
Speaker 8: time in order to facilitate this. It's again, it's amazing

1337
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:44,520
Speaker 8: to me. Now I do know that they took blood

1338
01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:47,080
Speaker 8: samples from her. Obviously they're going to do talks, but

1339
01:09:47,120 --> 01:09:50,719
Speaker 8: they've got blood cards which we create in the lab.

1340
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,200
Speaker 8: Or we'll put a droplet on a blater cart and

1341
01:09:53,280 --> 01:09:56,800
Speaker 8: hang on to that. I think the question is were

1342
01:09:57,040 --> 01:09:59,719
Speaker 8: how successful were they in retrieving any kind of blood

1343
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,840
Speaker 8: of it from her clothing? Was the dog's blood on

1344
01:10:02,920 --> 01:10:06,120
Speaker 8: the clothing, because if you have the dog's blood on

1345
01:10:06,160 --> 01:10:08,800
Speaker 8: the clothing, that would indicate that maybe the dog was

1346
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:12,400
Speaker 8: killed first. And then she was killed vice versa. How

1347
01:10:12,760 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 8: good of an exam did they do on the dog's body?

1348
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:17,680
Speaker 8: Was Katie's blood found on the on the body of

1349
01:10:17,680 --> 01:10:21,240
Speaker 8: the dog, you know, embedded in the fur. And did

1350
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:25,719
Speaker 8: the perpetrator leave anything behind? Did they cut themselves which

1351
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:28,920
Speaker 8: happens very frequently, you know in Sharpforce's injury case.

1352
01:10:29,080 --> 01:10:32,400
Speaker 4: Does the overkill here in this lead to like a

1353
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:36,799
Speaker 4: personal motive? Do you think, Joseph, was this a person killing?

1354
01:10:37,160 --> 01:10:40,000
Speaker 8: Yeah? I mean why why would you spend this much

1355
01:10:41,360 --> 01:10:44,320
Speaker 8: both If listen, if people will just touch your neck

1356
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 8: right now and you find your trachea the externally, you'll

1357
01:10:47,000 --> 01:10:51,320
Speaker 8: find that large cartilage's body on either side. On either

1358
01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:55,920
Speaker 8: side of your trachia, your karates are there. And so

1359
01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:59,760
Speaker 8: both of her karates were cut, not just one, Both

1360
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:04,800
Speaker 8: of her curatits were cut. So that's you know, and

1361
01:11:04,880 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 8: not to mention, you know the stablins.

1362
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 9: That go through and through or go through.

1363
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 8: Her body cavvy and you know, impact her organs. This

1364
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,000
Speaker 8: took a protracted period of tom the person that did

1365
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:18,679
Speaker 8: this would have been super saturated in blood of things.

1366
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:22,120
Speaker 5: It staggers me knowing where this took place. I actually

1367
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:26,880
Speaker 5: spent several months working with Steph on a series with

1368
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:29,519
Speaker 5: Nancy Grace and stayed in Atlanta. I was right near

1369
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,800
Speaker 5: Piedmont Park and it is it's just real public and

1370
01:11:32,880 --> 01:11:35,280
Speaker 5: people are there all the time. You mentioned families, but

1371
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 5: also walking in the evenings, because I would walk in

1372
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:41,640
Speaker 5: the evenings after work and it was, you know, just bustling.

1373
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:43,840
Speaker 3: So I'm I just am staggered.

1374
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:49,000
Speaker 5: I also want to acknowledge that Katie was known for

1375
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:54,680
Speaker 5: her kindness. She was into social justice advocacy, and she

1376
01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:58,280
Speaker 5: has been remembered through park dedications and makeshift memorials.

1377
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 3: I just wanted to make sure that we a moment

1378
01:12:00,720 --> 01:12:02,520
Speaker 3: to respect.

1379
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 5: That amid all of this atrocity that was rained down

1380
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 5: upon her, because this is as senseless as and it's.

1381
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 4: And it's so sad because her murder remains unsolved, and

1382
01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:17,320
Speaker 4: this listen, everybody deserves to be solved, every murder deserved

1383
01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:19,639
Speaker 4: to be solved. But she seems like a pretty extraordinary woman.

1384
01:12:20,080 --> 01:12:22,880
Speaker 8: Oh gosh, yeah, this is let me give you, you know,

1385
01:12:23,000 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 8: let me paint a bit more specific picture. This area

1386
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:31,680
Speaker 8: where she was found is kind of a famous in

1387
01:12:31,720 --> 01:12:36,080
Speaker 8: a famous landmark here because this is the first crosswalk

1388
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:39,200
Speaker 8: if you will that was painted with like the rainbow flag.

1389
01:12:39,400 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 8: All right, and if you look at it, and you

1390
01:12:41,400 --> 01:12:43,599
Speaker 8: can go on line and see one image of her

1391
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:47,559
Speaker 8: crossing that crosswalk. But guess what, guys, all the other

1392
01:12:47,640 --> 01:12:51,880
Speaker 8: CCTV cameras in that area were not working. At the

1393
01:12:51,920 --> 01:12:53,400
Speaker 8: people that work of her.

1394
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:56,439
Speaker 4: Have they looked at the people that are like in

1395
01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:58,600
Speaker 4: charge of maintaining those cameras.

1396
01:12:58,520 --> 01:13:01,160
Speaker 8: Oh yeah, yeah, And I mean, what are you going

1397
01:13:01,240 --> 01:13:03,400
Speaker 8: to do? I mean they'll just say, yeah that we're out,

1398
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:06,240
Speaker 8: you know, And that's essentially the response that you get.

1399
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:08,920
Speaker 8: And politicians will beat their chest and say, well, we've

1400
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 8: been working on this for some time to try to

1401
01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:12,720
Speaker 8: get it sick. It never gets resolved. It's one of

1402
01:13:12,760 --> 01:13:15,000
Speaker 8: those types of things that you just come to understand

1403
01:13:15,000 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 8: when you live in a big city, right, But.

1404
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:19,160
Speaker 3: You know, it just seems like every time you need

1405
01:13:19,160 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 3: them not working.

1406
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:21,920
Speaker 8: Scary thing about it is there's a maniac out there

1407
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:23,960
Speaker 8: that did this, and if the cameras are working, you

1408
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:25,840
Speaker 8: might have had a better chance of catching them.

1409
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 4: You're right about that. Well, later we're going to be

1410
01:13:28,280 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 4: inviting you to ask questions about any of the cases

1411
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:33,400
Speaker 4: that we've covered tonight. Give us a call eight eight

1412
01:13:33,439 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 4: eight thirty one crime or use the talkbacks on the

1413
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:37,840
Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app.

1414
01:13:38,439 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 2: What a Night So Far, Courtney, I know you have

1415
01:13:41,200 --> 01:13:42,920
Speaker 2: a question to talk about this case.

1416
01:13:43,120 --> 01:13:45,000
Speaker 3: Go ahead fill us in. I do.

1417
01:13:45,240 --> 01:13:48,920
Speaker 5: My question is something you referenced earlier, Joseph, and this

1418
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:52,720
Speaker 5: is regarding this Susanne more Few case. It's alleged that

1419
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:57,439
Speaker 5: her husband, Barry murdered her. So you mentioned that in

1420
01:13:57,479 --> 01:14:02,280
Speaker 5: the forensic analysis there was a botanists and who studies flowers,

1421
01:14:02,320 --> 01:14:04,920
Speaker 5: and there was an entomologist. At what point in the

1422
01:14:05,000 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 5: process are they brought in and is it how common

1423
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,880
Speaker 5: or not are these experts in looking at murders victims.

1424
01:14:13,240 --> 01:14:15,280
Speaker 8: Well, at the top of the list, it's going to

1425
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:20,120
Speaker 8: be anthropologists. They're probably they have incredible utility. I've worked

1426
01:14:20,120 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 8: with them for years. I'm actually frustrated forensic anthropologists that

1427
01:14:23,560 --> 01:14:28,280
Speaker 8: I've met my heart, but it requires very specific training.

1428
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 8: Entomologists probably number two on the list. They're consulted quite

1429
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:36,560
Speaker 8: a bit relative to time issues and that goes to

1430
01:14:36,720 --> 01:14:39,960
Speaker 8: the life cycle of insects. Really kind of a fascinating

1431
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:45,000
Speaker 8: one though, is forensic botanist the lawn share Those people

1432
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:49,720
Speaker 8: are utilized to study specific well two areas if a

1433
01:14:49,760 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 8: body has like unknown vegetable matter on the clothing. For

1434
01:14:55,040 --> 01:14:57,200
Speaker 8: instances like what in the hell is this? You know,

1435
01:14:57,680 --> 01:15:00,280
Speaker 8: you find the forensic botanist ask them about the point

1436
01:15:00,320 --> 01:15:04,720
Speaker 8: of origin of this and of a particular plant species,

1437
01:15:04,880 --> 01:15:08,720
Speaker 8: or they look at pollens because like, if you're in

1438
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:12,120
Speaker 8: southern Apalachia, you're not going to find the same pollens

1439
01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,000
Speaker 8: up there that you will along the Gulf coast. All right,

1440
01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:18,839
Speaker 8: it's those two things do not coexist one with another.

1441
01:15:19,360 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 8: Insect life is the same way as well.

1442
01:15:22,240 --> 01:15:23,719
Speaker 3: So the insects are even regional.

1443
01:15:24,360 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, they can be. You can move from one

1444
01:15:27,000 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 8: area to another. And for us, you know, a guy,

1445
01:15:30,479 --> 01:15:33,080
Speaker 8: you know, yeah, I know a little bit about entomology,

1446
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:35,240
Speaker 8: but not as much as these people. Some of these

1447
01:15:35,320 --> 01:15:38,400
Speaker 8: changes and some of these species are very subtle, and

1448
01:15:38,439 --> 01:15:44,120
Speaker 8: they can recognize these things about them even developmentally within

1449
01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 8: a certain species. They can see different changes dependent upon

1450
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:50,960
Speaker 8: the geography, the colomatology, all those sorts of things that

1451
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:54,400
Speaker 8: play into it. It's very involved and very people.

1452
01:15:54,479 --> 01:15:57,200
Speaker 5: I've actually, I know what kind of an oddly large

1453
01:15:57,240 --> 01:16:00,400
Speaker 5: amount of entomologists and they.

1454
01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 3: Just know all of their stuff. Really, yes, I do

1455
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:11,679
Speaker 3: interesting like often I do know this about Courtney Armstrong.

1456
01:16:11,840 --> 01:16:16,639
Speaker 2: She is a botanist, like she attracts them apparently, But

1457
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:18,960
Speaker 2: that is I'm so glad you said it out loud.

1458
01:16:20,640 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 6: No, that was.

1459
01:16:21,240 --> 01:16:26,320
Speaker 5: They're just fascinating and really learned, knowledgeable folks.

1460
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 8: Very focused.

1461
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:28,120
Speaker 9: They're very focused individuals.

1462
01:16:28,200 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 8: I knew a guy that studied nothing but fire ants.

1463
01:16:30,600 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 9: So there you go.

1464
01:16:32,000 --> 01:16:33,240
Speaker 3: Well, do you guys remember yes?

1465
01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:34,120
Speaker 9: Focused.

1466
01:16:34,800 --> 01:16:37,920
Speaker 4: In CSI, the main guy was the entomologist, and I

1467
01:16:37,920 --> 01:16:41,800
Speaker 4: think you know, he would talk about the bugcasings and

1468
01:16:42,120 --> 01:16:44,479
Speaker 4: you know things, and I think that really attracted a

1469
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:47,920
Speaker 4: lot of viewers to the show because it was so interesting.

1470
01:16:48,240 --> 01:16:51,000
Speaker 4: And I mean, I just think it's super interesting, Joseph,

1471
01:16:51,080 --> 01:16:52,639
Speaker 4: Like all the things that you've been talking about tonight,

1472
01:16:52,680 --> 01:16:56,160
Speaker 4: I'm just like, Oh, tell me more, you know, Like it's.

1473
01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 8: Just very fascinating to me.

1474
01:16:57,320 --> 01:16:59,280
Speaker 3: I just I love it. Thank you.

1475
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:02,080
Speaker 8: There's a lot of utility in the natural sciences and

1476
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:02,719
Speaker 8: it's useful.

1477
01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:04,280
Speaker 9: Forendsuccess the beauty of it.

1478
01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:06,599
Speaker 4: Oh, I went to the wrong field. I should not

1479
01:17:06,640 --> 01:17:09,240
Speaker 4: have gone into computers. This is just so fascinating to me.

1480
01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:11,840
Speaker 4: I love its life.

1481
01:17:13,520 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 2: Life still, young, Joseph, You're going to be back with

1482
01:17:18,160 --> 01:17:22,599
Speaker 2: us obviously, So honestly, these have been some harrowing tales.

1483
01:17:22,680 --> 01:17:27,000
Speaker 2: We've yeah unraveled a bit tonight. Obviously, we're going to

1484
01:17:27,080 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 2: be discussing Diddy tomorrow the jury deliberation begins, and Joseph,

1485
01:17:32,600 --> 01:17:34,559
Speaker 2: you'll be back with us next week, of course, So

1486
01:17:35,000 --> 01:17:38,160
Speaker 2: thank you everybody for sharing your Sunday with us. We'll

1487
01:17:38,160 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 2: have new developments in the case in Cordelaine, Idaho.

1488
01:17:41,760 --> 01:17:44,519
Speaker 3: Our thoughts are with everyone true crime tonight. Have a

1489
01:17:44,560 --> 01:17:45,040
Speaker 3: great night.