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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds, and Florida wants to ban students from

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Speaker 1: discussing menstruation. We have a mind blowing show today, The Guardians.

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Speaker 1: Margaret Sullivan stops by to discuss the upcoming Fox News lawsuit.

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Speaker 1: Then we'll talk to CNN's Edward Isaac Dovert and he'll

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Speaker 1: tell us about how Democrats are pushing abortion rights using

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Speaker 1: ballot initiatives. It's an old GOP playbook. But first we

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Speaker 1: have the host of the Laurence O'Donnell Show, MSNBC's Laurence O'Donnell.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Ban favorite, Laurence O'Donnell. Great

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Speaker 1: to be here, delighted to have you. I wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk to you first about what is going on in Tennessee.

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Speaker 1: I feel like that is something right out of the

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Speaker 1: West Wing. It really is. It's also something out of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties. And the reason Martin Luther King's life

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Speaker 1: ended in Tennessee is that he was there to participate

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Speaker 1: in a worker's strike. The sanitation workers all went out

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Speaker 1: on strike one day when two of them were killed

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Speaker 1: in what we now call an industrial accident on the job.

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Speaker 1: They were killed by the truck that they were working on.

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Speaker 1: And the conditions were so unsafe and the pay was

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Speaker 1: so low, and they were not unionized that they all

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Speaker 1: went out on strike and just to form a union.

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Speaker 1: And the slogan that they had at the time for

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Speaker 1: their protest march, which they were doing at gunpoint, by

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Speaker 1: the way, was I am a man. And if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to reduce what happened in the Tennessee legislature on

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Speaker 1: Thursday when they were expelling these two men, you could

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Speaker 1: reduce their statements to I am a man or I

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Speaker 1: am a person, and I need to be recognized as

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Speaker 1: a person with the right to speak in this body,

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Speaker 1: which they were denied, which is the kind of the

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Speaker 1: missing part of the coverage, in a way, is what

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Speaker 1: led up to it. You're not allowed to speak in

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Speaker 1: that crazy legislature. And so they were standing in a

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Speaker 1: very long tradition and dark and horrible tradition in Tennessee,

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Speaker 1: which at its worst moments has turned into progress. And

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Speaker 1: so we'll see less than a week after being expelled,

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Speaker 1: they will both be back at their desks in that

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Speaker 1: Legislative Chamber, and so what do we do? Do we

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Speaker 1: thank I really have been thinking about do we thank

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Speaker 1: the Republican Speaker of the House for doing this? Because

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Speaker 1: I didn't know Justin Pearson existed. I didn't know Justin

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Speaker 1: Jones existed. Justin Pearson is his speeches and debate he

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Speaker 1: was in debate on the House floor reached a level

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Speaker 1: that I've never seen before. You know, no one has

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Speaker 1: outdone Martin Luther King in public speaking in the history

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Speaker 1: of the United States of America, but no one has

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Speaker 1: ever outdone Justin Pearson in debate in the United States

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Speaker 1: of America. What he was doing was a combination of

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Speaker 1: public speaking and debate because he was taking all this

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Speaker 1: input from these Republicans making statements at him and pointing

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Speaker 1: fingers at him, you know, trying to expel him, and

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Speaker 1: he was responding to them in the moment, with no teleprompter,

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Speaker 1: no script, no night to think it over. You know,

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Speaker 1: what am I going to say if he says this?

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Speaker 1: It was just the one most remarkable thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: as I was watching it, you know, we originally scheduled

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Speaker 1: one segment on it for the show, and I was

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Speaker 1: as I was watching you know, Representative Pearson. I just

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Speaker 1: kept saying, oh, no, we gotta get rid of we

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Speaker 1: gotta get rid of the Trump segment, that we can

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Speaker 1: do that tomorrow. And then I was like, now you

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Speaker 1: gotta get rid of this other thing. And it ended

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Speaker 1: up being the whole show and we could barely do

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Speaker 1: it justice in the whole show. Yeah, it's so interesting

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Speaker 1: because it is the two of them. Justin Pearson and

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Speaker 1: Justin Jones were both kicked out, but these six year

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Speaker 1: old white woman was not. I just didn't believe they

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Speaker 1: could be that stupid. But man, I am so embarrassed

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Speaker 1: at having underestimated stupid in America since the rise of

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, because I really thought I had my finger

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Speaker 1: on the pulse of stupid in America. We've talked about

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Speaker 1: this before, Yeah, I mean I grew up with a

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Speaker 1: lot of it, you know, and so like it was,

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Speaker 1: it was all around me, and I just I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, America. I overestimated how smart you were.

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Speaker 1: I thought you were thirty percent stupid. So when I

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Speaker 1: saw them not expel the Representative Johnson, a white woman,

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Speaker 1: I thought, Okay, they realize what Justin Jones said in

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Speaker 1: his final words, which is the whole world is watching

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Speaker 1: and they realize this looks bad and we're going to

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Speaker 1: stop this. And the only logic I could see unfolding,

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Speaker 1: the only story logic in front of me, was Okay,

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Speaker 1: they're pulling back from this crazy idea. They're not going

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Speaker 1: to expel her. They're obviously then not going to expel

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Speaker 1: the next guy, you know, Representative Pearson, and then they

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Speaker 1: will probably go back and revote on the other guy

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Speaker 1: or something to try to fix it. And it's like no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: no no no no, no, no, no no. Guess how

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Speaker 1: stupid they are. They're going to keep the white person

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Speaker 1: and then expel the next black person. Unbelievable. And I

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Speaker 1: think that you know, there's a GOP donor retreat in Nashville,

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Speaker 1: Tennessee this weekend. Yeah. And of course, you know, there

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Speaker 1: used to be a notion in politics that you know, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, the big bunny people, they all kind of

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Speaker 1: gravitate toward the same place, a very similar place in politics.

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Speaker 1: So if you were to go back, say to the

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Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties, say to the Clinton era of running

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Speaker 1: for president, and you were to say, what is the

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Speaker 1: policy difference between big dollar donors to president, the first

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Speaker 1: president Bush running for reelection and Bill Clinton running against

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Speaker 1: him for president, and you would say, you could put

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Speaker 1: all those big dollar donors, the corporate the corporate big

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Speaker 1: dollar donors, not the Hollywood big dollar donors, because they've

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Speaker 1: always been liberal and they're they're different, you know. But

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Speaker 1: you could put the corporate big dollar donors in a

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Speaker 1: room together, and you wouldn't if you just were overhearing

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Speaker 1: them talk. It would take you quite a while to

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Speaker 1: figure out which one is with Bush, you know. And

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Speaker 1: and surely all of them would be saying how much

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Speaker 1: they don't like taxes, right, but some of them would

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Speaker 1: be contributing to the Democrat. But there was a very

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Speaker 1: significant overlap in the way they thought. And now there's none.

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Speaker 1: There is no overlap between the thinking of the big

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Speaker 1: money corporate people contributing to Republicans and the big money

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Speaker 1: corporate people contributing to Democrats. There's no overlap at all,

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Speaker 1: which is extremely dangerous because it means that the insular

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Speaker 1: and very stupid thinking of rich Republican corporatists will only

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Speaker 1: get stupider because they will only be you know, talking

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Speaker 1: to themselves and interacting with themselves and developing a set

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Speaker 1: of you know, political contribution incentives that get stupider and stupider,

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Speaker 1: and so they will find themselves contributing to the party

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Speaker 1: that is nationally threatening to destroy their businesses and their

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Speaker 1: accumulated wealth in one fell swoop with the debt ceiling

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Speaker 1: that no one's ever threatened them at that level before.

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Speaker 1: And because they too are stupid, they continue to be

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Speaker 1: handcuffed to the stupid party. And so the you know,

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Speaker 1: the Republican donors no longer are the force that we

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Speaker 1: could rely on to avoid collisions on things like the

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Speaker 1: debt ceiling. And I still hear it, you know, I

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Speaker 1: still hear oya. You know, the money men are telling

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Speaker 1: McCarthy he has to fix the debt ceiling and he

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Speaker 1: can't fool around, right, There's no evidence to support that.

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Speaker 1: If you said that about Gingrich in the nineteen nineties,

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Speaker 1: I'd go, yeah, okay, good, that'll take care of it.

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Speaker 1: Not Now, this dovetails to the next question. I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask you, which is the most recent reporting from

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Speaker 1: that left wing rag Pro Publica about one Clarence Thomas.

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Speaker 1: We have publicly revealed the most corrupt Supreme Court in history.

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Speaker 1: And the good news about that is that in the

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Speaker 1: entire history of the Supreme Court, there has been next

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Speaker 1: to not a whiff of scandal at the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 1: So and I guarantee you that you know, in eighteen

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Speaker 1: seventy that did not mean that the wives of Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court justices were highly politically active people secretly who were

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Speaker 1: trying to harm the country. They were profoundly inactive people

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Speaker 1: at the time. And so the nature of the scandal

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Speaker 1: that we have now, which is very much a spousal scandal,

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Speaker 1: it's very much a Jinny Thomas scandal because this Nazi

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Speaker 1: memorabilia collecting billionaire, the first thing he does is hey

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Speaker 1: personally pay Clarence Thomas's wife out of his pocket. He

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Speaker 1: funds an organization with all the money it needs to

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Speaker 1: then pay a salary to Clarence Thomas's wife. And by

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Speaker 1: the way, it's a salary that instantaneously doubles the income

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Speaker 1: of a Supreme Court justice's home. And one of the

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Speaker 1: challenges in the modern real estate market of the Washington,

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Speaker 1: DC area is how do you live on a Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court justice's salary in a way that you would expect

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Speaker 1: a Supreme Court justice to live. And one of the

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Speaker 1: answers to that in the Thomas family is well, number one,

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Speaker 1: don't worry about the Supreme Court justice's salary. And so

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Speaker 1: you know, the level of corruption there is colossal and

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Speaker 1: unaddressable by the current system. Yeah. I mean, if you're

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Speaker 1: John Roberts, you just have a wife who is a

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Speaker 1: legal Oh but I mean he one of the reasons

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Speaker 1: why he can't go near this is his wife lives

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Speaker 1: an equally corrupt life. Okay, his wife lives an equally

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Speaker 1: equally corrupt life. I shouldn't be laughing, but it's just

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Speaker 1: grim in the legal community. Now, let's take a look

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Speaker 1: at the vice president's husband. Okay, because we're not saying

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Speaker 1: you can't have a job. We are saying the founders

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Speaker 1: lived in a world in which no wife would ever

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Speaker 1: have a job, so they never had this kind of

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Speaker 1: thing never crossed their minds. Okay, but now we live

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Speaker 1: in the twenty first century, so sure your spouse can

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Speaker 1: have a job. What did the vice president's husband do?

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Speaker 1: High powered lawyer, very high income lawyer in a big

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Speaker 1: worldwide law firm. He quit his law firm. He represents

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Speaker 1: entertainment clients. He didn't represent any clients with any issues

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Speaker 1: before the government in any way. But he thought, I

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Speaker 1: can't be a associated with a law firm whose London

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Speaker 1: office might someday be involved in a case that somehow

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Speaker 1: reflects on some aspect of American governing. And so the

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Speaker 1: Vice President's husband quits the high Pang law firm and

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Speaker 1: he becomes a law professor at a local law school

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Speaker 1: in Washington, DC. And that is the model. There is

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Speaker 1: utterly nothing slightly corrupting about that model, and it is

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Speaker 1: entirely honorable. And he will get no credit for that

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Speaker 1: by anyone out there in the news media who looks

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Speaker 1: at these issues. While the news media will just be

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Speaker 1: looking at the Jenny Thomas and the Chief Justice Robert's

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Speaker 1: spousal situations and say, well, you can't say that they

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Speaker 1: can't have a job. You know, they'll take the stupidest

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Speaker 1: possible angle on it. And the answer is, yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: you can have a job. Tell me what the job is.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen senators go from being United States senators

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Speaker 1: to being lobbyists, and I consider that a dishonorable transition.

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Speaker 1: I have also seen senators go from being United States

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Speaker 1: senators to being presidents of universities, and I think, yes,

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Speaker 1: that's what you should do. Do something like that, that

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Speaker 1: is not using the actual day to day currency of

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Speaker 1: what you did in government to add to the personal

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Speaker 1: currency of your bank account, right exactly. So one of

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Speaker 1: the things that was super interesting about this pro Publica's

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Speaker 1: story was not so much because we had all sort

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Speaker 1: of thought after that two thousand and four front page

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Speaker 1: story in the La Times where I talked about how

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Speaker 1: Thomas had gotten gifts, and then he slowly stopped declaring gifts. Okay,

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Speaker 1: that we're not so shocked by that. But one of

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Speaker 1: the things I was really struck by was all of

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Speaker 1: the conservative writers on Twitter who had gotten money from

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Speaker 1: Harlan Crowe by the way, that name is like right

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Speaker 1: out of Central Casting, who then were staunchly defending him

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Speaker 1: and saying things like, well he has communist art or

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Speaker 1: he has and you really did see how much of

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Speaker 1: conservative media is a donor based I would say, Harland

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Speaker 1: Crowe is a smart corruptor, right, He's a corruptor of

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Speaker 1: the reviewers of his work, you know, in that sense,

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Speaker 1: you know, by pumping the money in there. Let me

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Speaker 1: tell you a story about the way this is supposed

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Speaker 1: to work okay. Senator Moynihan representing New York had a

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Speaker 1: very strong association with Puerto Rico, which does not get

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Speaker 1: a United States Senator, and so Puerto Rico, when it's lucky,

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Speaker 1: has certain United States Senators at certain times in history

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Speaker 1: New York Senators. And in the geopolitical dynamics of the region,

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Speaker 1: Ambassador Moynihan at the United Nations was very much concerned

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Speaker 1: every day when he was hearing from other countries about

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Speaker 1: how Puerto Rico is just a colony, and he would

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Speaker 1: be insisting, no, it's not. It's a commonwealth that can

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Speaker 1: vote its own status anytime it wants to and all

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Speaker 1: that you know. And Cuba was doing an awful lot

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Speaker 1: of disinformation about Puerto Rico at the time, and anyway,

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Speaker 1: he took a strong interest in it. And so when

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Speaker 1: I was working for him in the Senate, he had

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Speaker 1: to go down to Puerto Rico to meet with the

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Speaker 1: Governor of Puerto Rico about a very important tax provision

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Speaker 1: in the US tax code that helps support the Puerto

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Speaker 1: Rican economy. And it was very hard to hold onto

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Speaker 1: because people looked at it as a corporate loophole, which

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Speaker 1: in a way it was, but it was a very

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Speaker 1: strong supporter of an economy that was by far the

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Speaker 1: poorest economy that is part of the United States of America.

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Speaker 1: So he wanted to go down there, and a friend

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Speaker 1: of his said, you can use my plane to go

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Speaker 1: down there. And I and all my time working for

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Speaker 1: Senator moynihan, never knew him to fly on anyone's private plane.

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Speaker 1: And this was a friend of his he'd had since

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Speaker 1: he was a Harvard professor. And so the Senate rule was,

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Speaker 1: you are allowed to take that gift from someone who

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Speaker 1: you can document was your friend before you became a senator.

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Speaker 1: Which is very important about this definition of friend. Okay,

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Speaker 1: because everybody who comes at you after you're a senator

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Speaker 1: police don't ever use the word friend. Don't use the

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Speaker 1: word friend. You've got to have a separate word for them.

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Speaker 1: So I knew how long he'd known the guy. I

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Speaker 1: knew the whole thing, and I said to him, well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you know, I just don't want to be trying

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Speaker 1: to explain this to the Buffalo News when they run

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Speaker 1: the story about the senator takes a private jet to

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Speaker 1: the Caribbean, you know, for a vacation. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to have to explain. No, it was to meet with

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Speaker 1: the governor. And yes, it included a weekend, so I

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Speaker 1: guess you could call the weekend vacation. You know, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to explain this whole thing, and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to explain or fifty year relationship with this guy.

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Speaker 1: And he said, well, you know, my knee and my hip,

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Speaker 1: and you know, he's seventy something at the time, and

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Speaker 1: this is a tough one, right, and his wife is

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Speaker 1: going to go with him and she's not feeling great

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Speaker 1: and this would be so much better. And so I

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Speaker 1: have about two weeks to change his mind on this,

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Speaker 1: because I'm not going to give up. Because yes, it

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Speaker 1: fits within the Senate Ethics rules to do this, but

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Speaker 1: you will have to put it on a disclosure form,

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Speaker 1: and you will have to explain it all on a

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Speaker 1: disclosure form, and the Buffalo News and the New York

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Speaker 1: Post are going to see that disclosure form, and then

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Speaker 1: I am going to have to explain it, and I'm

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Speaker 1: not gonna do that. And in fact, the unspoken subtext

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Speaker 1: of where I am going with this with the Senator

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Speaker 1: was if you do this, I will quit. And the

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Speaker 1: reason I will quit is I don't want to have

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Speaker 1: to explain it. And by the way, the problem with

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Speaker 1: most politicians is that they don't have anyone around them

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Speaker 1: ever who would quit over something like that or anything else.

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Speaker 1: So I work on him, and I work on him,

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Speaker 1: and I have the schedule of FI the Delta flights

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Speaker 1: connecting through Atlanta, you know, from Washington, just terrible, right,

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Speaker 1: and it's awful, And I keep working it and he

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Speaker 1: keeps saying no, no, no, and he's getting like huffy

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Speaker 1: and angry about it. And then literally the day before,

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Speaker 1: like literally the day before, he finally says, uh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Shiloh will will do Delta through a laptop. And you

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Speaker 1: know what he knew. He knew. I never said to him,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you do this private plane, then I'm

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Speaker 1: going to leave. I never said that, but I think

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Speaker 1: he could feel the force of how seriously I felt this,

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Speaker 1: And ultimately what I did get through to him was

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Speaker 1: there's nothing we will be able to defensively say to

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Speaker 1: the people of Buffalo, who might when this story breaks,

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Speaker 1: be buried under two feet of snow. There is nothing

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Speaker 1: that I will be able to say to them, right,

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Speaker 1: that will make them say, oh, I'm glad he took

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Speaker 1: the private yet. I'm glad he took his friend's private yet.

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Speaker 1: And we were a mile away from the ethics line

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Speaker 1: on this Okay, it wasn't even close to the ethics line.

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Speaker 1: It was a mile away, and I wouldn't let it happen.

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Speaker 1: And that's the way it should be. The ethics line

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Speaker 1: is here, you don't put your toe on it. You know,

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Speaker 1: you get as far away from it as you can.

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Speaker 1: You get to the point where you say, I will

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Speaker 1: never ever be in a public discussion about an ethics

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Speaker 1: choice I make in this arena. And Clarence Thomas says,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I don't want to know where the

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Speaker 1: line is. I just want to ride in a private

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Speaker 1: plane in the yachts. Don't tell me about lines. Laurence O'Donnell,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming. I hope you'll come back.

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Speaker 1: Margaret's Ellivan is a columnist at The Guardian US on

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Speaker 1: media and culture. She's also the author of Newsroom Confidential,

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Speaker 1: Welcome Too Fast, Politics, Welcome Back, My Friend and Yours.

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Speaker 1: Margaret Sullivan, Thank you, Molly, it's nice to be back

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Speaker 1: with you. I am just delighted to have you on

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Speaker 1: full disclosure. We are friends, and I have to really

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Speaker 1: handle you to get you on the podcast, so I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate it when you agree. You're very welcome, and

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Speaker 1: it is true that we are friends. We're pretty good buddies. Actually,

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Speaker 1: we survived COVID together by walking in the park and

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Speaker 1: have consulted on many things. That's right. I first want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about Evan. Tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about Evan. Yes, so we're talking about Evan Gershkovic,

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Speaker 1: who very unfortunately and very unfairly has been detained in

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Speaker 1: Russia on espionage charges. He is a reporter for the

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. He's thirty one years old. I know

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Speaker 1: Evan pretty well because so I was the public editor

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Speaker 1: at the New York Times for about four years until

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. And that job is very strange. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: consist anymore. But it was the job of sort of

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Speaker 1: reader representative, ambud's woman in my case, and kind of

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Speaker 1: an internal media critic. And it's an isolating job that

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Speaker 1: you know you are crazy to take, but I did,

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Speaker 1: and I always had one assistant, and I kind of

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Speaker 1: rotated through a few different young wonderful, brilliant young people,

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Speaker 1: all of whom have gone on to do incredible things.

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Speaker 1: But Evan was the last one of them. And that

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Speaker 1: was so it was in twenty sixteen, and he was

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Speaker 1: twenty three or twenty four years old. He was one

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Speaker 1: year out of Bowden College and fresh faced, very handsome,

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Speaker 1: very good natured, smart, driven young man, and he helped

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Speaker 1: me with this difficult job. He kind of did the

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Speaker 1: triage of the complaints coming in from readers, and so

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Speaker 1: they complaints a week about The New York Times, and

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Speaker 1: so we would get the first products. A horrible job,

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Speaker 1: it is, and then he would say to me, you know,

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Speaker 1: my assistants would say to me, well, we're hearing a

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Speaker 1: lot about this, and maybe you want to take this

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Speaker 1: up in a blog post or at a column. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, we got to know each other really well

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Speaker 1: because we were in such a very tight, little two

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Speaker 1: member department. And I also was very fond of Evan

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Speaker 1: because you know, for many reasons, but one was that

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Speaker 1: he was a little younger than my son Alex and

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Speaker 1: a little older than my daughter Grace, and so you know,

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Speaker 1: we had that kind of thing going on as well.

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Speaker 1: A week or two ago I'm in Washington, DC, and

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Speaker 1: I'm in a hotel room by myself, and it's the morning,

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Speaker 1: and I start seeing these headlines about a Wall Street

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Speaker 1: journal reporter detained on espionage charges in Russia. And my

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Speaker 1: initial reaction was, oh, my gosh, that's so awful. And

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Speaker 1: I start thinking about what a difficult time this is

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Speaker 1: for journalists and how you know, we're in kind of

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Speaker 1: a new Cold War and Putin's been cracking down on journalists.

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Speaker 1: And then I took another look at the headshot the photograph,

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Speaker 1: and I realized it was Evan, And I mean, I

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Speaker 1: felt like the color of the world just changed. You know,

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Speaker 1: it was a devastating moment, which hasn't actually improved since then.

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Speaker 1: It's true, I don't want to laugh. It's just so depressing. Well,

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Speaker 1: he's you know, he's in prison. Can you explain a

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Speaker 1: little bit about exactly what the story is he was arrested. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so he you know, I mean, I don't really know

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Speaker 1: exactly what the reason was. He was arrested on espionage charges,

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Speaker 1: but that are clearly bullshit. Yeah, I mean, the thought

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Speaker 1: was that he was gathering information about the Russian military,

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Speaker 1: which is very possibly true because reporters do gather information,

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Speaker 1: to gather information together documents. In fact, that is the

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Speaker 1: definition of journalism and reporting. And it's not a crime.

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Speaker 1: It's not a crime here, and it shouldn't be a

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Speaker 1: crime anywhere, because this is how we get informed. And

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Speaker 1: you know, as you know, Molly, a lot of journalists

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Speaker 1: left Moscow and left Russia altogether because it's become so

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Speaker 1: dangerous for journalists, and a lot of Russian journalists are

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Speaker 1: in prison or have been detained, I believe very unfairly.

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Speaker 1: But this is the first time that a foreign correspondent

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Speaker 1: has been arrested and detained in the modern era. So

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Speaker 1: is a very unusual, very alarming, and very appalling kind

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Speaker 1: of thing to have happened. So one of the things

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Speaker 1: that I've read about the editor of the Wall Street Journal,

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Speaker 1: the new editor of the Wall Street Journal, said that

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Speaker 1: one of the most important things that when you have

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Speaker 1: a journalist like that who gets detained, is to keep

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Speaker 1: him in the news. That's right, Emma Tucker, who is

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Speaker 1: the real as you say, the relatively new top editor

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Speaker 1: of the Wall Street Journal, who seems to be doing

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Speaker 1: a great job with this situation, has said very clearly

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Speaker 1: that you know, people and should keep him top of mind.

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Speaker 1: I mean, the worst thing is for somebody like Evan

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Speaker 1: to be forgotten and languishing in prison in Russia, and

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Speaker 1: you know who knows what happens to him. So the journal,

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Speaker 1: the Wall Street Journal has been doing a wonderful job

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Speaker 1: I think of writing stories about this. They did a

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Speaker 1: great profile of Evan. They have a hashtag I Stand

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Speaker 1: with Evan, And the thought is that you know, whether

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Speaker 1: you're a journalist or a non journalist, regular person, you

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Speaker 1: can at least, you know, keep him in the conversation.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really important. So I want to

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Speaker 1: ask you what we're on this topic of authoritarian government's

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Speaker 1: not liking media coverage. Elon Mosk yesterday just sort of

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Speaker 1: had this. He decided that he was going to make

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Speaker 1: a false equivalency between media outlets like the British Broadcasting Company,

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Speaker 1: which are media out let's say, get some money from

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Speaker 1: the British people, versus Russia today, which is an arm

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Speaker 1: of the state. You know, he's going to keep the

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Speaker 1: algorithms so that all of these actors good and bad

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Speaker 1: get the same kind of boost from the algorithm. Can

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Speaker 1: you talk about where you think that goes and what

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Speaker 1: you think about that. Yeah, the first piece of that

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Speaker 1: I heard about was when NPR was branded on Twitter

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Speaker 1: as state affiliated media. Right. NPR gets a very tiny

430
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: percentage of its revenue from the government. I mean, it's

431
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 1: like one something like that. Most of its funding comes

432
00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 1: from listeners like you and me as they like to.

433
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 1: And similarly, the BBC does get some government funding, but

434
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: they are not state affiliated in the sense that they're

435
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: an arm of the government or that elected officials or

436
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 1: bureaucrats tell them what to do. I mean, there's a

437
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: very very they're regular independent media. Right. It's certainly misleading

438
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: at the very least, and probably worse than misleading. I

439
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: actually harmful for Twitter for Moss to be branding those

440
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: news organizations that way. It makes people think that there's

441
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: something that they're not, and it's really not right. It

442
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: is interesting, though, I mean, here is someone who has

443
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: many many business dealings. He has factors in China, he

444
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: has a product he needs to sell around the world.

445
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: I mean Twitter is a technology company, but ultimately I

446
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: mean he wants to make it a media company. Well,

447
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 1: I mean I've always felt that the big platforms, and

448
00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: I would include Twitter and Facebook and others are in

449
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: fact media companies because they are a source of they're

450
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,240
Speaker 1: a source of I mean, they don't produce news, but

451
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: they are an incredible source of distributing the news, and

452
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: so there's incredible power there. And pretty much everything that's

453
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 1: happened to Twitter since Musk bought it has been damaging

454
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: to the way we use it and the way that

455
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: it's and I think to certainly too its revenue and

456
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: it's financial future, but also to the usefulness of it.

457
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,719
Speaker 1: I mean, it always had some problems, as we know,

458
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: and could even be described, you know, at times as

459
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,880
Speaker 1: sort of assesspool. But in general, you know, I think

460
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 1: it was a place where you could get good information

461
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: and you could distribute your work, and you could promote

462
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: other people's work and now and sort of choose how

463
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: you wanted information to come to you. And a lot

464
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 1: of that has gotten very messed up. And you know,

465
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 1: one symbol of that is the verified check mark, which

466
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: you know, for a long time was a way that

467
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: you could say, as a user, you could say, oh,

468
00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: is this a fake New York Times or is that

469
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: actually the New York Times. And so now, as Musk says,

470
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: he wants people to basically buy that check mark or

471
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,680
Speaker 1: buy that verification, so now it's pointless. In fact, if

472
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,400
Speaker 1: it comes off the real ones and is only available

473
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: to those who buy it, it will be actively misleading.

474
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 1: So that's a bad move. Yeah. It's super interesting though, right,

475
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 1: because we have come to the moment where technology and

476
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: media they've gone from using our content for free to

477
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:34,360
Speaker 1: build their platforms to wanting to charge us to use

478
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 1: our content, right exactly. And it's very frustrating and at

479
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 1: the same time, so for my friends who don't use Twitter,

480
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: they'll say it's dumb, why don't you just come off it?

481
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: But for journalists it is a really important and valuable tool.

482
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: There's nothing so far that has replaced it as sort

483
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: of a gathering place and a place to develop sources

484
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: in a place to quickly find information and follow breaking

485
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: news and all that stuff, or meet new friends. Right, Molly,

486
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: that's how we met pretty much. Well that's not actually

487
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: how we met, but close enough. Yeah, no, it's not,

488
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 1: but what we had established that we kind of liked

489
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 1: each other on Twitter, that I met you in person,

490
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: it was like meeting an old friend even though we

491
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: didn't know each other. Oh yeah, I think it's a

492
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 1: good point though, that we find ourselves in a real

493
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 1: place of dependent Well we'll see. I mean some people

494
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 1: have left, but they also seemed to kind of come

495
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: trickling back as well. So I mean, I think that

496
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: I've sort of changed my use of Twitter a little

497
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: bit by being more careful and less you know, just

498
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 1: sort of being a little bit more passive. I'm more

499
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 1: likely to sort of lurk and read things rather than

500
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: necessarily post a lot of original stuff myself, although I

501
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: always post, you know, I write a column for The

502
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: Guardian and I do post that all the time, and

503
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: it's helpful, you know, it helps get the word out

504
00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,160
Speaker 1: that hey, here's this thing, you might want to read it.

505
00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: So I'm curious what you think about the sort of

506
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: Trump news cycle that we'd just come in and out

507
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: of very quickly. Well, I mean it's been fascinating. As

508
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: you know, we can never as a society seemed to

509
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: tear our eyes from Donald Trump, no matter what, and

510
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: so in that sense, it's just been another chapter of

511
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:28,520
Speaker 1: the insanity. But I do think that his base will

512
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: never desert him. Trump has said a lot of false things,

513
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: but I actually think one of the truer things he

514
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: said early on was that he could probably shoot someone

515
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: on Fifth Avenue and his base would not desert him.

516
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: That seems to be sort of true, and that, you know,

517
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: being indicted, being arraigned, being charged with all these felonies

518
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: has only helped him fundraise and made his base of

519
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: followers feel more closely tied to him. But I do

520
00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: think that a lot of people who are not the closest,

521
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: the most maga hat wearing people have gotten dissolution. And

522
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 1: while I believe that journalists should not make predictions because

523
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:14,400
Speaker 1: we're very, very very bad at it, I will nevertheless

524
00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: say that I think that he could be and likely

525
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: will be the Republican nominee for president. But I think

526
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: that his ability to actually get elected in a general

527
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: election has been somewhat damaged. Yeah, I mean, it does

528
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: seem like that, and he did lose last time. So

529
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 1: if he runs against Biden, which again is looking more

530
00:32:35,520 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: likely since Biden has now told l Roker of all people,

531
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 1: run No, not that he's planning to run, but that

532
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,960
Speaker 1: he's planning to have more Easter egg roles at the

533
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: White House, so that you know, I mean, who among us? Yeah,

534
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 1: So I'm curious, you know here you are. You've been

535
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 1: the public editor of The Times, you have written a

536
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: media column from the Washington Post, and now you're reading

537
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: a writing a media column for The Guardian. I was

538
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 1: curious to know you have been really in the forefront

539
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:10,239
Speaker 1: of covering the media. Have we gotten batter well in

540
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: some ways? I mean, I think that we've learned some things.

541
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: And it was a steep learning curve with Trump because

542
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 1: there was this tendency to cover Trump the way other

543
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: elected officials or would be elected officials had been covered,

544
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 1: you know, kind of give them the benefit of the

545
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: doubt when they said something newsworthy, put it in the headline,

546
00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,560
Speaker 1: all of that kind of thing. But I think we

547
00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: have learned some lessons about not constantly magnifying false information,

548
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: so that is good. But there is still a tendency

549
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 1: to focus too much on things that are outrageous, to

550
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: go with the sensational rather than the substantial, and to

551
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 1: some extent, we're all obsessed with what could be called

552
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: engagement if you want to be polite about it, or

553
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: could clicks if you don't want to be so polite

554
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: about it. And we as media people in general, work

555
00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:10,840
Speaker 1: for corporations, not everybody. So there's a profit motive that's

556
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 1: running a lot of the decision making and that is

557
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 1: hard to get away from. Yeah, it is such an

558
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: interesting and strange time in American life because we're seeing this,

559
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: how can media survive in a world where you know,

560
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,040
Speaker 1: some tech owners really hate the media? Yeah, well, I

561
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 1: mean that has been what we've seen play out with Musk.

562
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: But then there's also you know, the whole Fox News drama, right, Oh, yeah,

563
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: will you talk about that a little bit? Well, I mean,

564
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: you know, basically, we're coming up on the trial in

565
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:50,279
Speaker 1: Delaware this month of Dominion voting Systems suing Fox for

566
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: billions of dollars for harming their reputation about whether they

567
00:34:56,360 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: rigged the election, which was something that was promi gated

568
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: after the twenty twenty election on Fox News, at least

569
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 1: by their opinion hosts and and so on. So dominion

570
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: did not like that, and now we're seeing it play out.

571
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: And what's happened in the pre trial filings is that

572
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 1: all of this stuff has come out about you know,

573
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 1: the text messages and the emails that have come out

574
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:28,399
Speaker 1: about how vehemently Fox did not want to say some

575
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: of the true things, like the election was legit and

576
00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: because their audience, their vast audience didn't want to hear

577
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: it and was decamping to more, you know, even more

578
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: right wing places like Newsmax in one America. So it's

579
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: going to be really interesting to see how it plays out.

580
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: I mean it so far we're not talking about a settlement.

581
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: We're talking about an actual trial, and I think it's

582
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: going to be riveting. Yeah, I mean, it seems like

583
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: Delaware is the hot it's right now now, just kidding,

584
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:03,360
Speaker 1: but I mean it does seem like Dominion wants to

585
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: see hosts on the stand. They want to see Rupert

586
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 1: Murdoch on the stand. Yeah. Yeah, And so Rupert's free now,

587
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: he's not engaged anymore, so I hope that he's going

588
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,359
Speaker 1: to be available. And you never know, you know, you

589
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 1: can meet people in court, so why not. I mean,

590
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 1: I'm making a place to meet wife number whatever. He's

591
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: on five, I think, I guess, or have there been five?

592
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: I can't keep it straight. That was like a what

593
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: two week engagement didn't really it didn't really pan out,

594
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 1: really pan out, But you know, I mean, there's life

595
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: is really long, I guess, so you never know. Yeah,

596
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: very interesting stuff, Margaret Sullivan. I hope I can convince

597
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: you to come back at some point. Always fun to

598
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: talk Edward. Isaac Dovert is a senior reporter at CNN. Welcome,

599
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 1: Too Fast Politics, Isaac. Thanks, it's great to be here.

600
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: So I wanted to have you on because I wanted

601
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: to talk to you about abortion rights, but I want

602
00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,239
Speaker 1: to talk to you about some other stuff too, So

603
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,880
Speaker 1: get ready. Okay, So this article you wrote really struck

604
00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 1: me because it's like something we talked about a lot

605
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: on this podcast. Democrats pushed abortion rights to the ballot

606
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: in twenty thirty four, using an old Goop playbook, explain, well,

607
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: what we've seen over the last year since the Dobs

608
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: decision leaked and then when it finally came out a

609
00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: couple of weeks after that, is that this issue is

610
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:35,959
Speaker 1: incredibly politically potent and in ways that I don't think

611
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,959
Speaker 1: anybody had really anticipated. And you saw that prove out

612
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: in some of the ballot meaisters. Remember when Kansas, which

613
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: was not a state that anybody expected would be an

614
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,360
Speaker 1: abortion rights state, had that ballot measure that protected abortion

615
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 1: rights in the end, and by a significant margin, given

616
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: that it was Kansas, but then going into the midterms

617
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: in November, abortion rights were really resonating with a lot

618
00:38:01,880 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: of people, and in Michigan there was a balot measure

619
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:09,360
Speaker 1: there that also ended up protecting abortion rights. It passed

620
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,399
Speaker 1: with the support for that, but importantly for Democrats who

621
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: were linking things, it was part of powering a lot

622
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,439
Speaker 1: of turnout for Democrats that gave them a very good

623
00:38:19,520 --> 00:38:22,759
Speaker 1: year there. All the statewide races went for Democrats, such

624
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,280
Speaker 1: of house races that were seen as on the bubble

625
00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: could go either way, ended up going for Democrats. And

626
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: the lesson that Democrats started to take from that was, Okay, well,

627
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: we should really be talking more about this, apparently, and

628
00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 1: continuing to press it because it is a live, live issue.

629
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: That is all the mindset that they were in going

630
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: into the Wisconsin State Supreme Court race last week, which

631
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: again was supposed to be this very competitive race, very

632
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 1: narrowly divided state. Wisconsin, the very narrowly divided state obviously

633
00:38:57,200 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 1: very close in twenty sixteen and in twenty twenty and

634
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,839
Speaker 1: the presidential elections there. The Senate race in Wisconsin last

635
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 1: year was a very narrowly divided race between the incombent

636
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,759
Speaker 1: Senator Ron Johnson, who was reelected in Mandela Barnes, So

637
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,680
Speaker 1: it went for the Republicans then, But then the governor

638
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:19,360
Speaker 1: of the state was reelected Tony Evers, and the attorney general, Democrat,

639
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,880
Speaker 1: was reelected. So that division is there. But this race

640
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 1: for a state Supreme Court, which is you know, usually

641
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 1: state Supreme court races and years past, we're not a

642
00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 1: big deal. But this between a huge deal, in large

643
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: part because the way the other judges on the Supreme Court.

644
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: And this is also it's weird to some people that

645
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 1: there are even elections for a state Supreme Court, but

646
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 1: they are a Wisconsin but the judges are evenly divided

647
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: in most people's assessment over how they will vote on

648
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 1: upholding a law that goes back to eighteen forty nine

649
00:39:53,840 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: that banned abortion in Wisconsin, which would be on the

650
00:39:57,080 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 1: books after the Dova's decision. And so this judge, whoever

651
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 1: was elected, was going to probably be the tie breaking vote.

652
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: And sure enough, one of the main issues in the fact,

653
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,400
Speaker 1: when you look at all the advertising spending that was

654
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: part of this race, it was the top issue was

655
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 1: abortion rights. And that race, which was not a close

656
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,080
Speaker 1: race at all, In the end, it was an eleven

657
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: point win for the Democratic backhandate the one who will

658
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: vote to preserve abortion rights in Wisconsin. That means two Democrats. Again,

659
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 1: it's another proofpoint this is an issue that is really

660
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: politically potent. They say that Republicans have overreached, that they

661
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: are continuing to not recognize how people are reacting to this,

662
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:46,319
Speaker 1: and for them that means talk about abortion rights going

663
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,360
Speaker 1: into next year to all the elections, but also really

664
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: forced the issue by trying to find other states that

665
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: they can put ballot measures on the ballot in places

666
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 1: that they want to juice turnout. And that goes back

667
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 1: to something that that's the Republican playbook from two thousand

668
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,920
Speaker 1: and four when Karl Rove did this to help George W.

669
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 1: Bush when reelection. He oversaw the strategy to put ballot

670
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: measures in a lot of swing states about banning gay marriage.

671
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: So that was banning gay marriage in two thousand and

672
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 1: four helped Bush. Then in twenty twenty four, it looks

673
00:41:17,160 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: like it will be protecting abortion rights that Democrats are

674
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 1: pushing in a hope of helping looks like Joe Biden

675
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 1: if he indeed runs for reelection seems like he will,

676
00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: and a lot of other candidates for the House and

677
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: Senate and governor. I want to get back to this

678
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:37,760
Speaker 1: idea of balant initiatives helping top of the ticket candidates,

679
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,439
Speaker 1: because that's sort of interesting, isn't it. It's a little

680
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 1: bit counterintuitive. Well, like it gives people another reason to

681
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,280
Speaker 1: turn out and vote and makes them connect with an issue.

682
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 1: You have a presidential candidate or even a governor senator candidate,

683
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: and you may think, Okay, well, why do I care

684
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 1: about that person, or what is it that's really grabbing

685
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: me about that person? But a ballot measure can be

686
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: a reason to go and vote, and it's you see

687
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,799
Speaker 1: that about a lot of things. I remember to go

688
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: back to Michigan actually in twenty eighteen when there was

689
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 1: also a good year for Democrats then, and one of

690
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: the reasons that was cited to me for why they

691
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: had such a good year in Michigan that year by

692
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: the chair of the Michigan Democratic Party on election night.

693
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: He said to me, the big part of it was

694
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 1: that there was a measure to legalize marijuana. Right that

695
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: drew a lot of people out, people who might not

696
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,960
Speaker 1: have voted otherwise, including so I mean the younger voters,

697
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: but not just younger voters. That that cuts across a

698
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,279
Speaker 1: lot of groups. That gave people a reason turn out

699
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:42,359
Speaker 1: to vote, and when they're there. Very rarely do people

700
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: go in to vote and vote on just one thing

701
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: and turn around and so looking for these issues that

702
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: can connect with voters who are likely to be with

703
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: you on other things and then making them get to

704
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: the polls. That's that's what this is about. And it's

705
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,719
Speaker 1: pretty smart because if you think about it, you know,

706
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: one of the things that Biden has been struggling with

707
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: recently is getting excitement among young voters. Yeah, and that's

708
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: a perennial thing. Look, I remember in twenty twelve writing

709
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,560
Speaker 1: an article about whether Obama would be able to connect

710
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 1: with young voters again like he did in two thousand eight.

711
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 1: That's a crazy thing to think about. Well, but in

712
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: the end, the youth turnout was there for Obama in twelve,

713
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,720
Speaker 1: the youth turnout was there for Biden in twenty despite

714
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: the bat is obviously not a young man himself. But

715
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: what I the conversations that I've had with elected officials,

716
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 1: younger elect officials, people like Maxwell Frost that twenty five

717
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: year old congressman. Yeah, who was just on this podcast

718
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: on Monday. Well, there you go. It's all connected. Molly

719
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: Frost said to me right after he was elected, when

720
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: he was in Washington, he said, look, I think that

721
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: young people are going to turn out for Biden because

722
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: of his focus on things that Frost fields are very

723
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 1: important to his generation. A lot of the climate change

724
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 1: measure is a big part of that was obviously a

725
00:44:04,000 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 1: big part of what was in the Inflation Reduction Act

726
00:44:06,520 --> 00:44:10,280
Speaker 1: last year. But these sorts of issues that can connect

727
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,440
Speaker 1: with younger voters and are a part of it. But

728
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: it's when you talk to the people who have been

729
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: involved with making these very successful ballot measures elsewhere around

730
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 1: the country last year, what they say is that this

731
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: is it doesn't work as well to say vote for

732
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,279
Speaker 1: Democrats there for abortion rights, or if you want abortion rights,

733
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 1: Democrats are your people. What they say is that what

734
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: works is to talk about it in terms of rights

735
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 1: and in terms of Republicans stripping away freedoms and the

736
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 1: government getting involved, not even Republicans so much, but getting involved,

737
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 1: and that if you do that, that connects to a

738
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: broader feeling that is there for a whole range of

739
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,279
Speaker 1: voters that they feel like the government is not paying

740
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: attention to them and is not looking out for them,

741
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,800
Speaker 1: and is following their own agendas and all those sorts

742
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,399
Speaker 1: of it's more of a swingy message. Yeah, and look,

743
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 1: when you get that, you get people who are really

744
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,439
Speaker 1: connected with this issue already on top of it. That

745
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: ends up being a lot of voters. When you have

746
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 1: states that are being decided by small margins in the

747
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:22,720
Speaker 1: presidential election or in lower level races, whether it's senator

748
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: down to House, a couple thousand votes means a lot.

749
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 1: If in twenty twenty, Donald Trump had won I think

750
00:45:28,560 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: it's forty four thousand votes between four different states, he

751
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: would have been reelected president. He would not have won

752
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 1: the popular vote, right, Biden still had many million vote lead,

753
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,080
Speaker 1: but the electoral College would have gone to Trump again.

754
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 1: So you think about that forty four thousand votes between

755
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 1: four states, it's not a lot. And states where some

756
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 1: of the action is being talked about for these ballot

757
00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 1: measures next year include Nevada, Arizona, right, some of those

758
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:02,280
Speaker 1: closely divided states, but they all so include Montana, where

759
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: there is a Senate race John Tester running for reelection

760
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: and seen as probably going to be again as it

761
00:46:08,480 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: has been the every time he's run a very very

762
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 1: competitive race. Also in New York. New York already has

763
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 1: a ballot measure that is set for the twenty twenty

764
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,479
Speaker 1: four ballot. The legislature approved it a couple of weeks ago.

765
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:22,560
Speaker 1: New York is not going to be a competitive state

766
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,919
Speaker 1: in the president wow, except that there are all these

767
00:46:26,920 --> 00:46:31,280
Speaker 1: House seats right that Democrats fucked up. Excuse my French,

768
00:46:31,320 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 1: but I can curse because we're not on cable news.

769
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 1: You know, there's the George Santos seat, etc. There are

770
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:42,239
Speaker 1: six seats that are represented by Republicans now in districts

771
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 1: that Biden carried in twenty twenty. If that isn't a

772
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: case that Jay Jacobs should resign, I don't know what

773
00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:53,479
Speaker 1: it is. Well, I'll leave that for you. And that's

774
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: six seats just in New York. And you know how

775
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: many seats it would take for the Democrats to be

776
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: in the majority of the House. Five Yeah, house race

777
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,360
Speaker 1: they're never decided by that many votes in close districts.

778
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: So with that ballot measure in New York, that in

779
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: itself could be the thing that changes the dynamics of

780
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 1: next year's elections. I'm going to ask you about a tweet.

781
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 1: It's very annoying to be asked about a tweet, but

782
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,560
Speaker 1: it's not one of your tweets. So there's something if

783
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 1: it's about one of my tweets, and it's of course

784
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 1: not annoying. Month So, on April seventh, after this yet

785
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,319
Speaker 1: another Texas abortion ruling, Dan Diamond, who writes for the

786
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:33,759
Speaker 1: Washing Post Very Smart, noted that there were twenty six

787
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 1: Senate Democrats who waited in on this ruling and only

788
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: one Republican who waited in on it, and it was

789
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:46,759
Speaker 1: Senator Cindy Hyde Smith, who is from a very red

790
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: state and also not a genius from Mississippi, which is

791
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:55,959
Speaker 1: where the Dobb's decision originated. That comes from Mississippi. She's

792
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: also most famous for having dressed up as a Confederate soldier.

793
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:01,799
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm just saying I don't think of her

794
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 1: as like having her finger on the pulse or she

795
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,799
Speaker 1: does for Mississippi. Yeah, and that's her job, is to

796
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,560
Speaker 1: represent Mississippi. I'll tell you this. I went down to

797
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court on the day the Dobb's decision was argued,

798
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,600
Speaker 1: not when it was decided, and there was, as often

799
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: as the case for big events like that, there were

800
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 1: a lot of protesters on both sides of it. I

801
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 1: looked around. I could not find any elected officials there

802
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: at all, except for Roger Wicker, who's the other senator

803
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,760
Speaker 1: from Mississippi. It's not that far from the Capitol to

804
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court, say maybe a three minute walk, I

805
00:48:34,600 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 1: should say. I couldn't find any Republican elected official either

806
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: than Wicker. There were some Democratic officials who'd been part

807
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: of protests and speaking, and I walked up to Senator

808
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: Wicker and I said to him, why do you think

809
00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: you're the only Republican here? And he said, well, you know,

810
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: people are busy their committee hearing, isn't it And I said,

811
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 1: the Senator, it's pretty close, and it seems like an

812
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: important case. Don't you think the people would want to

813
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: be part And he said, well, you know, there are

814
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,520
Speaker 1: a lot of things, and he kind of dismissed it

815
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: and then said he had to get back to his

816
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: office himself. What we see from then, from when the

817
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:14,080
Speaker 1: Dobbs decision leaked, from when the decision officially came out

818
00:49:14,160 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: and ongoing is Republicans who very much would rather not

819
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: talk about this. The people who are most engaged with

820
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 1: trying to win elections see this as a mostly losing

821
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: issue for them with swing voters, and that they feel

822
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 1: just as the Democrats field, it's proved out in their favor.

823
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 1: The Republicans see the same numbers and see the same results,

824
00:49:37,320 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 1: and that's why they want to try to avoid it.

825
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,799
Speaker 1: But that is not an option that a lot of

826
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,200
Speaker 1: the people who are leaders in the Republican Party seem

827
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:50,360
Speaker 1: to want to give them. Lindsay Graham last year introduced

828
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,839
Speaker 1: a fifteen week ban on abortion that would be at

829
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:55,880
Speaker 1: the federal level. Ronda Santis looks like he is on

830
00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 1: the cusp of signing what would be a six week

831
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: ban after six weeks out of which is essentially a

832
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 1: ban in Florida. Right. Mike Pence has been a very

833
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 1: adamant and clear that he thinks that there should be

834
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 1: a national abortion ban. Obviously, he's very committed to the cause,

835
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 1: whatever the constituency for that is. He's the former vice president.

836
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: He looks like he's probably going to be running for president.

837
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 1: He is going to keep talking about this himself, right,

838
00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 1: And the only Republican presidential candidate, and that I saw,

839
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,000
Speaker 1: and maybe I'm wrong. Who reacted to the Texas Judge's

840
00:50:33,080 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: ruling was Pence, who said, this is a great thing.

841
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: It corrects a wrong of this pill being available for

842
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: the last twenty years. So when that is going on,

843
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: and then you see things like the Susan B. Anthony List,

844
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: which is one of the leading groups committed to pro

845
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 1: life cause, saying there's a call that the president of

846
00:50:54,680 --> 00:50:58,399
Speaker 1: that group did earlier this year with reporters, and she

847
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 1: said that she doesn't think it's an acceptable option for

848
00:51:02,480 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: Republicans to either a well, i'll put this in the

849
00:51:06,239 --> 00:51:10,600
Speaker 1: affirmative case. She thinks that it's important that Republicans are

850
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: very committed to a full approach of backing more restrictions

851
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: and more laws that would make abortions illegal and the

852
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 1: procedures and everybody involved with them not happen. And she

853
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: also said she said that Republicans shouldn't adopt the which

854
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:32,359
Speaker 1: she said the Ostrich strategy of trying to talk about this,

855
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,319
Speaker 1: She and others are going to say, this is an

856
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:38,359
Speaker 1: issue we want to hear from our candidates about, and

857
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,600
Speaker 1: that's candidates from president on down and they want them

858
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: to be very clearly on one side of this. She's

859
00:51:45,560 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: going to drive Republicans into a ditch, which I think

860
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 1: is great, but I'm just saying it does seem an

861
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: important data point. Yeah, you also see Donald Trump, who

862
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 1: has a complicated history of where he stands on this issue,

863
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 1: and best complicated and worst perhaps you know. Right in

864
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen when he was running, there was a moment

865
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:15,000
Speaker 1: where Chris Matthews asked him about whether he thought there

866
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 1: should be a punishment for women who get abortions, and

867
00:52:18,680 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: he said there has to be some punishment. Then they

868
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 1: walked it back like an hour later and said that's

869
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 1: not really what he meant. There was this weird moment

870
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: in an interview that Trump did with Maureen Daub where

871
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 1: he was not clear on whether he had ever been

872
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: involved with a woman who had gotten an abortion. But then,

873
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 1: of course he appointed three of the judges to the

874
00:52:36,880 --> 00:52:41,280
Speaker 1: report who were part of the dab's decision. And yet

875
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: after the mid terms, which did not go well for Republicans,

876
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,919
Speaker 1: or at least as well as they wanted to and

877
00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: where the historical trends would have put them, Trump started

878
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:55,760
Speaker 1: complaining publicly through his truth social posts that too many

879
00:52:56,120 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 1: Republicans had been for too many restrictions and that's not

880
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: what people wanted. And that turned off a bunch of

881
00:53:03,320 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 1: his evangelical supporters who were like, wait a second, I

882
00:53:05,960 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: thought you were with us. You're the first and only

883
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 1: president who showed up at the March for Life in

884
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: Washington appointed these justices. Now you're turning on us. So

885
00:53:15,280 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: it's not like Trump is going anywhere in the Republican primary,

886
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: and so all of these things are there. But what

887
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:23,440
Speaker 1: it does seem to mean is that the Republicans themselves

888
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:26,279
Speaker 1: are going to keep talking about this issue, while at

889
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,520
Speaker 1: the same time, in a bunch of state legislatures, you

890
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: have a lot of bills moving that would be more

891
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:38,880
Speaker 1: abortion restrictions, a couple that would classify abortion as a

892
00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:42,400
Speaker 1: homicide or put a penalty like murder, one that would

893
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 1: have the death penalty for abortions, and you have one

894
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 1: of those has been introduced in South Carolina. Tim Scott,

895
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 1: who is very consistent a pro life senator thinking about

896
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: running for president himself. He was asked about that a

897
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,839
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago on Fox News, and I think

898
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: that's a terrible idea, right, And that's the pincer that they,

899
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: the Republicans, seem to be caught in. And as this

900
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: is all happening in a democratic political operatives, could not

901
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,880
Speaker 1: be happier to watch them not know where to go,

902
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 1: because that's all just the opportunity for them to make

903
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: an issue of this. Yeah, thank you so much. I

904
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:26,840
Speaker 1: hope you'll come back. I hope you'll invite me back.

905
00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:34,840
Speaker 1: Molly John Fast Jesse Cannon. That Diane Finestein, she's a

906
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:39,719
Speaker 1: little old at eighty nine. Diane Feinstein. Look, she has

907
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:43,959
Speaker 1: served her constituents in a great way. She has been

908
00:54:44,160 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: a statesman and a leader. She is now because she's

909
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,719
Speaker 1: sick with shingles, which is terrible. She is in the

910
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 1: hospital and unable to vote on the judicial nominees. So

911
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: Democrats don't have the numbers to confirm judges on the

912
00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: judic Cherry Committee, and so they are out of luck.

913
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 1: While Diane Finstein recuperates, it could be very easy for

914
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:12,919
Speaker 1: her to take this moment to retire and let Democrats

915
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 1: continue putting judges on the bench. And as much as

916
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 1: we respect and appreciate her hard service, it probably is

917
00:55:21,160 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 1: time for her to retire. And that is why this

918
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:30,000
Speaker 1: entire situation is our moment of fuckeray. That's it for

919
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:33,880
Speaker 1: this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday,

920
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,839
Speaker 1: and Friday to hear the best minds in politics makes

921
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: sense of all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard,

922
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: please send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

923
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: And again, thanks for listening.