1 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,240 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Saber Protection of iHeartRadio. I'm Annie Reese. 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 2: And I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we have an episode 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 2: for you about Memphis style barbecue. 4 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: Who m yeah, that's how I feel. What an endeavor? 5 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: Yep yep. 6 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 2: First, this one really made me miss travel for this show, 7 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 2: because I would have loved to have gone to all 8 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: of these places, experienced them for ourselves, and also talked 9 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 2: to the humans because I strongly believe that them saying 10 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 2: it would be more entertaining than us saying it. 11 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I absolutely think so strong opinions. I mean, oh, 12 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: we knew anytime barbecue. 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, this is part of why we haven't 14 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 2: done more episodes on barbecue. 15 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:09,520 Speaker 1: Also, like, I. 16 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 2: Don't know about you any but like I am not 17 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 2: a Memphis style expert. Nope, I have not been to Memphis. Okay, 18 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: all right, so yeah, so please do let us know 19 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: if we're wrong about anything. But also please do hold 20 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: for the end of the episode because we're offering a 21 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 2: number of caveats as we. 22 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 1: Go A numbers. Yeah, correct, Well, I believe I know 23 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: the answer, but I shall ask, was there any particular 24 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: reason this was on your mind? Lauren. 25 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so we just had the Fourth of July 26 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 2: holiday here in these United States that we are currently 27 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 2: living in. And you know, there are some real weird 28 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 2: things going on in the US right now, some perhaps 29 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:15,639 Speaker 2: reasons to not celebrate, but you know, we are still 30 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: a union of people with incredibly differing opinions about barbecue. 31 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 2: And you know what is more American than that. 32 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: Truth? And I hope you listeners will write in with 33 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: some of your opinions after this episode. Oh my goodness. 34 00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:42,760 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, strong opinions always welcome. And yeah, 35 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 2: I don't know why I started in Memphis. I guess 36 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 2: I was like looking at the sauces and felt like 37 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 2: this was a good place to start from a sauce perspective. 38 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,359 Speaker 1: A lot of consideration went into this. It's very frightening 39 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 1: to step into this arena. I must, it really is. 40 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: We're gonna face it bravely, this this pit if you will. Yeah, ah, yes, 41 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: So for past episodes, we have touched on this before 42 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 1: we did an Ashville episode about barbecue. 43 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. The two main Ashville barbecue related episodes are one 44 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: about comfort food and nostalgia. It's called Nostalgia comfort Food 45 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,799 Speaker 2: in Carolina barbecue. And then there's a bonus episode that's 46 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: like mostly an interview that's called Taking Cues from a 47 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 2: pit Master. 48 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: So yeah, yes, so those molasses, cole saw potato, salad, 49 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 1: mac and cheese, the interview we did with Howard Conyers. 50 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, any, any and all of those. Sure, probably 51 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 2: a lot of other things too, but I think those 52 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: are some of the most relevant. Sure, all right, let 53 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 2: us bite the bullet. 54 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: Okay, I guess this to our question, Memphis style barbecue, 55 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: what is it? 56 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 2: Well, Memphis style barbecue is a set of ingredients and 57 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: processes and traditions around smoking and serving proteins that developed 58 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: in Memphis, Tennessee. The typical protein is pork, specifically the 59 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: pork shoulder and the pork ribs. Both are often given 60 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: a dry rub before cooking. And this dry rub is 61 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:47,360 Speaker 2: complex and every cook respectfully referred to here as a pitmaster, 62 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,000 Speaker 2: is going to have their own blend. But you can 63 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: expect a base of salt, paprika, chili powder, maybe brown sugar, 64 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 2: along with other things like cayenne pepper, black pepper, garlic, 65 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 2: and onion, mustard and celery seed, all in powder form 66 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 2: because again, dry rub. Yeah, the proteins are again sometimes 67 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 2: rubbed with this seasoning mix and then usually smoked low 68 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: and slow over charcoal and smoldering hardwood, typically hickory, which 69 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 2: cooks the meat and also infuses it with like smoky 70 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 2: woodsy flavors. These proteins are typically cooked until they're tender, 71 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:26,480 Speaker 2: but not like completely meltingly soft. Both will have a 72 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: little bit of a chew to them, like the ribs 73 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: won't fall off the bone when you pick them up. 74 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:35,320 Speaker 2: The shoulder will be served pulled, that is, shredded, sometimes chopped, 75 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 2: sometimes as is on a plate with sides, and sometimes 76 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: on a sandwich with toppings like Memphis style barbecue sauce 77 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: and coal slaw. The ribs will be served either dry 78 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: like as is, or wet, meaning slathered in that barbecue sauce. 79 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: The saucing question is a tomato based sauce made with 80 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: a base of tomato pure and or ketchup molasses and 81 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: or brown sugar plus vinegar, and that's going to be 82 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 2: seasoned with things like onion, garlic, mustard, cayenne, pepper, worst 83 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: shear and hot sauce, which results in like a reddish 84 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: brown sauce that's mid thin and like tangy, spicy sweet. 85 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 2: Sometimes the pit master will baste the ribs with the 86 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 2: sauce during cooking so that it kind of like caramelizes 87 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: into the meat. So okay, So the proteins are like 88 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,279 Speaker 2: just so savory and smoky and a little bit spicy sweet, 89 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 2: and the sauce will just amp that, although some purists 90 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 2: will tell you that the dry ribs are best with. 91 00:06:34,760 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: The sauce on the side. 92 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 2: Side Dishes to coordinate with all those flavors and to 93 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 2: make a meal may include that colesla again, stewed greens, 94 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: corn on the cob, mac and cheese, potato salad, French fries, hushpuppies, 95 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 2: and or corn bread. So it's all kind of messy 96 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: and indulgent and so satisfying, Like barbecue is just beautiful. 97 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 2: It is Memphis on a plate. 98 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: And Memphis, you are delicious. Oh I need to go 99 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: so badly. 100 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: Also, I think that was the longest what is it 101 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: that I've ever written for the show. It's a lot, 102 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 2: if not the longest, quite long, like like right up there, 103 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 2: top top three. And even within all of this fairly 104 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 2: specific set of guidelines that I've just laid out, there 105 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: is of course room for argument, like the exact cut 106 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: of meats that you use are a matter of preference. 107 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: For the ribs you're talking about baby backs versus spare ribs. 108 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 2: Babybacks being from like the top of the rib cage, 109 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: they can be more tender and flavorful. Spares are longer 110 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 2: and less meaty, so you get like a different texture 111 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: from the finished rib. Baby bags can further come with 112 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 2: the rib tip cut off. That's another argument for pulled pork. 113 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 2: You can use the Boston butt, which is like the 114 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 2: top of the shoulder. 115 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: It has less. 116 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 2: Fat and bone in it, or you can go with 117 00:08:11,400 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 2: the picnic shoulder, which is the lower part with more 118 00:08:14,160 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 2: fat and bone in and it's usually butchered with a 119 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: skin on, which can help with moisture but also prevent 120 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: smoke penetration. I cannot tell you what to do. No, No, 121 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 2: whatever cut you're using, what do you smoke it over? 122 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: All wood wood plus charcoal, all charcoal, lump charcoal or briquettes? 123 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 2: What kind of wood like? Is hickory necessary? Or can 124 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: you toss some apple or peachwood on there? I don't 125 00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 2: know what temperature do you go? For a lot of 126 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,319 Speaker 2: recipes say low and slow, but one of the original 127 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 2: Memphis rib joints, Rendezvous cooks some hotter and faster using 128 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: this like vinegar based mop sauce during cooking, a type 129 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 2: of basting sauce to maintain moisture. MOP sauce might be 130 00:08:57,960 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 2: seasoned with some or all of the ingredients that you 131 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,640 Speaker 2: in your dry rub. In this cooking style, you don't 132 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:05,319 Speaker 2: use the dry rub as a rub, but rather dust 133 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 2: your finished ribs with it. 134 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 1: I'm overwhelmed already. H But wait, there's more. 135 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 2: More. Generally speaking, dry versus wet is a really big deal. Also, Okay, So, 136 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 2: like in the rub, sugar and how much sugar is controversial, 137 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 2: and then let's talk about the sauce in the sauce. 138 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,080 Speaker 2: Your ratio of tomato to vinegar is a strong preference 139 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 2: that people have, though the other ingredients tend to remain 140 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,640 Speaker 2: like basically the same. I say basically because I've seen 141 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: all kinds of different ingredients. In addition to the sort 142 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 2: of basics that I listed above, I've seen like rosemary, thyme, 143 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: a regino, celery, salt, ginger, cuman, coriander, allspice. 144 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: I found a really funny It was a co read 145 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:06,600 Speaker 1: where someone was claiming no one dry rib dry rub 146 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: ribs are a myth what, and that they don't exist 147 00:10:10,880 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: in Memphis and that there's like only one place that 148 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: does it. Wow everywhere else, no one else does it. 149 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: And everyone was chiming in like I've gotten them here here, 150 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,680 Speaker 1: but it just cracked me up. Wow. Yeah. 151 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: No, I read a lot of menus in preparing for 152 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 2: this episode, and I can guarantee, I mean, unless the 153 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:34,719 Speaker 2: menus are lying. 154 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: A trick. 155 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:42,400 Speaker 2: I I guess it's a possibility. 156 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: We we haven't been there. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. Also, 157 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,959 Speaker 1: like we have to talk about the coleslaw. 158 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 2: We did talk in our Coalsla episode about different recipes 159 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: basically like creamy versus non creamy. Memphis has virgins of both, 160 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 2: one creamy and sweetened. One tends to be non creamy 161 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 2: and sharper with like mustard and bandeger. Other sides are 162 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: a side quest. I can't this episode is already long, yep. 163 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 2: But Fishionados talk about the bark of the ribs. By bark, 164 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: I mean that the outer crust that develops as the 165 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 2: surface dries out during cooking, which is not unmitigated. Recipes 166 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 2: that I've seen call for spritzing the ribs with water 167 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:35,560 Speaker 2: every half hour or so, and or using a mop 168 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 2: sauce and or doing a sort of baste with butter 169 00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 2: towards the end of cooking. Memphis pit masters do also 170 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:46,240 Speaker 2: cook other proteins. You can often find chicken on the 171 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 2: bone and or pulled beef. 172 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: Brisket. 173 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: Sausages, and sandwiches and plates are not all that you 174 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: can do with Memphis style barbecue. One popular way of 175 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 2: using the pulled pork is in barbecue spaghetti, which is 176 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 2: a dish made by cooking down like a tomato based 177 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 2: pasta sauce including I mean, you know, like whatever you 178 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: want to put in a tomato based pasta sauce, like onions, garlic, 179 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 2: bell pepper, italiany herbs like oregano, and basil. Cook that 180 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 2: down along with like a lot of Memphis barbecue sauce, 181 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 2: and then add in pulled pork to kind of like 182 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: stud the sauce with the way that you would like 183 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: ground beef or whatever. Yeah, served on top a spaghetti. 184 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 2: Pulled pork is also a topping on pizza. I read 185 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 2: a lot about rib tip fried rice. 186 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: YEP, A lot of it's found its way into a 187 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: lot of things, for sure. M hm, for sure. Well 188 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: what about the nutrition. 189 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: When we're talking about a lot of different things here, 190 00:12:47,240 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 2: that's I watch your portion sizes, drink water, eat a 191 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 2: vegetable that has not been cooked with pork at some point. 192 00:12:58,880 --> 00:12:59,559 Speaker 1: At some point. 193 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, maybe not today. 194 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe not with your barbecue dish. Yeah, okay, Well 195 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: we do have some numbers for you, okay, yeah we do. 196 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: Uh yeah. 197 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 2: So there are around one hundred barbecue restaurants in Memphis, 198 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 2: like in and around Memphis, and I mean by that 199 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: barbecue focused restaurants, not including places that like happen to 200 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 2: serve one barbecue dish, which seems like a lot for 201 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 2: a city, does seem like a lot, but like a delicious, 202 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 2: amazing a lot, happy, happy about it. 203 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. 204 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 2: Every year, during the month long Memphis in May festival, 205 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 2: there is a four day World Championship barbecue cooking contest, 206 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 2: sometimes called the Super Bowl of Swine all right. In 207 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, it was in its forty seventh year 208 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: and over one hundred and teams participated. It had categories 209 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:08,640 Speaker 2: for ribs, shoulder, whole hog, other meats, junior's contests for 210 00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: kids nine to seventeen years of age, and then categories 211 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: for sauces, tomato, mustard, and vinegar based the best booth, 212 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,840 Speaker 2: the best T shirt, and Miss Piggy Idol, which is 213 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 2: like a team music and or dance competition that seems 214 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: to feature like a lot of men in drag with 215 00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: pig costume elements. All right, I think there's also barbecue 216 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: sauce wrestling. 217 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 1: Okay, seems like a pain to clean, but sure. Yeah. 218 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 2: Also I feel like there's a number of elements, both 219 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: the sugar and the vinegar. I don't know anyway. Not judging, 220 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 2: just saying if you are not participating or judging in 221 00:14:57,400 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: any of this, like like official judging, not like judgment judge. 222 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 2: I mean, you know you can judge all the time, 223 00:15:01,360 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 2: judge all you want, but if you're not officially judging. 224 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 2: There are many food vendors at this festival and folks 225 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: selling their rubs and their sauces, plus live music and 226 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: cooking demos. This festival does have a serious economic impact 227 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: on the city. As of twenty seventeen, it drew nearly 228 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,320 Speaker 2: sixty four thousand people, about half of whom were from 229 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 2: out of town, and generated thirty seven point seven million 230 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:28,640 Speaker 2: dollars workers earned seven million bucks during it, it raised 231 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: like a million bucks in tax revenue. Attendance has dropped 232 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: since twenty seventeen, but it is still really huge. 233 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:43,960 Speaker 1: Wow. People love barbecue. They do they do. 234 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:45,480 Speaker 2: They love it so much that there is in fact 235 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:49,800 Speaker 2: a second barbecue competition basically at the same time in Memphis, 236 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 2: called the Smoke Slam. It was only in its second 237 00:15:52,960 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 2: year as of twenty twenty five. All right, m I 238 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: will say that at both of these events the teams 239 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 2: have some pretty rad names, like a Porkalypse now the 240 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 2: parent head Porkers of Hagaritaville, Snoutcast, Game of Bones, brown Chicken, 241 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 2: brown Cow, and the Procrastinators. 242 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: Excellent. Yeah it's just a sampling. Yeah, Snoutcast got me 243 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: as an at alien. Yes, thank you. Snoutcast spelled the 244 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: quet Yeah all right. 245 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: At Memphis barbecue joints, the rub and the sauce recipes 246 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 2: are serious secrets. Perhaps obviously at one the barbecue Shop, 247 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,240 Speaker 2: only four people have known the sauce recipe in seventy 248 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 2: some years of service. 249 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:00,320 Speaker 1: Wow. 250 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 2: But some of these places do ship around the US 251 00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: and beyond. The aforementioned Rendezvous has a whole kitchen set 252 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 2: up for distribution and they're smoking oven for pork shoulders 253 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: can hold two hundred and forty pork shoulders at the 254 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: same time. 255 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: Oh wow, yep, yep, wow. You know this does bring 256 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: back memories because part of the reason this show exists 257 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: it is because when we went to Austin, Lauren and 258 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: I went in on a bunch of food adventures, but 259 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: barbecue was a big part of it. 260 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 261 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: Absolutely, But I remember looking into can I get this 262 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: stuff shipped? And it was so expensive. I don't know 263 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: what the deal is at. Oh that's another don't yell 264 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,240 Speaker 1: at me. I know that's a separate thing. 265 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 2: Sure, sure, but yes, yeah, but uh so, how did 266 00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:09,119 Speaker 2: we get to hear? An excellent question, and we do 267 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: have a lot of history for you, which we will 268 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 2: get into as soon as we get back from a 269 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 2: quick break. For a word from our sponsors, and we're back, 270 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 2: Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you. 271 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:34,719 Speaker 1: Okay. So the history of roasting meat is ancient. It's 272 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,440 Speaker 1: part of the reason these episodes are so daunting. Yeah, 273 00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: but yes, it's ancient. When discussing American barbecue history, in particular, 274 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,879 Speaker 1: Indigenous folks for roasting meat low and slow, long before 275 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: European colonization. This way of cooking worked for several reasons. 276 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: It didn't burn the meat or the wood, and provided 277 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 1: flavor and tenderness to the meat. 278 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: Specifically, when the Spanish arrived in the Caribbean in like 279 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: the late fourteen hundreds, they observed the local Tino people 280 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:11,159 Speaker 2: roasting meat on these wooden frames over fires like vertical 281 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 2: posts with a kind of rack or grill dare I 282 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 2: say on top? And the tiny word for this frame 283 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:22,320 Speaker 2: was a barrabku or bbque or similar like I've seen 284 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: it written a few different ways. 285 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: The Spanish started calling this style of cooking barbicoa, and 286 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:32,760 Speaker 1: they took it with them as they traveled farther up 287 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 1: into the Americas, into what's now the southern United States. 288 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: They modified it as they went, moving away from the 289 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 1: shallow pit that they witnessed towards deep pit barbecue, higher heat, 290 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 1: and faster. There are also several early accounts of Europeans 291 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: describing how this meat was seasoned or basted with a 292 00:19:53,640 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: type of early hot sauce uh okay. The first known 293 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,199 Speaker 1: reference to barbecue sauce was from an eighteen seventy one 294 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: Tennessee publication, but there had been plenty of other references 295 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: and recipes for things like a sauce for barbecues. Most 296 00:20:13,680 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: of these early sauces were butter and vinegar seasoned with 297 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: salt pepper, which sounds good. I'm into it. Oh yeah. 298 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: A lot of pitmasters r cagey about what spices things. 299 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: But we do know that enslaved Africans also influenced methods 300 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: and taste of American barbecue styles. For centuries in America, 301 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: they were doing the cooking, seasoning, prepping, serving, and after 302 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: emancipation they had these skills that were desired. The various 303 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: styles that developed and seasonings used were impacted by pockets 304 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 1: of immigrants too, so a large German population, for instance, 305 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: led to some places creating a mustard based sauce. However, 306 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: the story is slightly different when it comes to Memphis. 307 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: There are a couple of reasons that barbecue took off 308 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: in Memphis the way that it did. One is location 309 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: and the fact that it's a port city located on 310 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,320 Speaker 1: the Mississippi River that meant access to, amongst other things, 311 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 1: a variety of spices, hardwood, barrels of molasses, tomatoes, all 312 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,200 Speaker 1: of which ended up in this style of barbecue. In 313 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: one way or another. Molasses was cheaper than refined sugar 314 00:21:29,440 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: at the time, so it became the sweetener of choice 315 00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 1: for a while. It ended up in all kinds of things, 316 00:21:34,320 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: including in a variety of marinades and sauces for meat. 317 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: Vinegar was readily available in the South at this time too. 318 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: When it comes to the strong emphasis on pork in 319 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: Memphis style barbecue, ever since the Spanish brought pork to 320 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: the Southern US and the fifteen hundreds, pork was a 321 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: staple of the Southern barbecue seam. They were plentiful. For one, 322 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: pigs were generally cheaper than cows in terms of maintenance 323 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:07,200 Speaker 1: in farming Texas barbecue separate conversation. But in terms of 324 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: Memphis yep, yep, uh huh, they didn't really need land 325 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: to graze like cows did. For instance, farmers sometimes released 326 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: the pigs into the wild so that they could feed themselves, 327 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: only to catch them later. If there wasn't enough food 328 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: to feed the pigs and the meat was tough after 329 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: they were slaughtered because they were thin, farmers would often 330 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: turn to low and slow styles of cooking. Some sources 331 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: suggest that over time, pigs became a source of Southern 332 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: pride and neighborhoods, and even politicians would host barbecues after 333 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: slaughtering pigs. It was a really communal affair. Over time, 334 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: as the South urbanized and shifted away from agriculture to 335 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: some extent, people relied less on raising and slaughtering their 336 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: own pigs, but could instead buy pork at grocery stores. 337 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: This led to a prolific of restaurants taking over the 338 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: task of barbecue because it was an intensive task. Often 339 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: these restaurants were small, sometimes even just shacks open only 340 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: on weekends because they were run by farmers who had 341 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: all this other stuff to do and the process took 342 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: so long. The nineteen tens is when we first start 343 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: seeing commercial barbecue sauces in the US. By the nineteen twenties, 344 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: numerous barbecue restaurants started opening in Memphis, a lot of 345 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: them still quite small. Pitmasters experimented with spice rubs, typically 346 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: on various cuts of pork, and spices to add into 347 00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: the sauces offered for the meat as well. Molasses was 348 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: often added as a sweetener or sometimes brown sugar. People 349 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: enjoyed the style of barbecue for lunch and on late 350 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: nights out listening to music or what have you. It 351 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: was a very popular We're going out, let's get barbecue. 352 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,800 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and this was a t I'm of a 353 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: lot of change for Memphis. The population of black people 354 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: in the city increased from three thy eight hundred during 355 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: Civil War times to over fifty thousand at the dawn 356 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 1: of the twentieth century. It also became a place people 357 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 1: visited on weekends and a hub for musicians. This meant 358 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: people wanted food and they wanted entertainment. A lot of 359 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: these places had jukeboxes or dance floors, live music, they 360 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: sold alcohol, or they had quick pickups so people could 361 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: find their own entertainment and eat their food there. Many 362 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: of these restaurants, even if employing black folks, though, were 363 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: segregated in one way or another. The food, however, was 364 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,400 Speaker 1: beloved and often viewed as something people of all classes 365 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,879 Speaker 1: had opinions on. And people had their favorite haunts and 366 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 1: just so specific on when to go and how it 367 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:57,159 Speaker 1: was working there. So let's get into some of the 368 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: big names. Yeah yeah, oh my, I will start with 369 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: John H. Mills. John H. Mills opened a barbecue joint 370 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: in the late nineteen twenties that went on to specialize 371 00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 1: in pork ribs and shoulder. He took them over a 372 00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: brick pit located outside, basing them periodically with a peppery 373 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: hot sauce. According to an AP report from nineteen thirty eight, 374 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: his restaurant was beloved and it was a pit stop 375 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: for celebrities in the area. He pioneered shipping barbecue by mail. However, 376 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: the restaurant closed in the nineteen fifties. From what I read, 377 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: most of his family was like, this is too much 378 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: work to run it. I don't want to do it. 379 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: Oh well, fair enough, fair enough. Also in nineteen thirty eight, 380 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: a man named James Willis started working as pitmaster at 381 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: Memphis's Leonard's Barbecue, which is founded in nineteen twenty two. 382 00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: He allegedly invented the Memphis style sandwhich, though some sources 383 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,200 Speaker 1: indicate that term or something very similar to this sandwich 384 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 1: was being sold long before he started working there. 385 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's the one with the sauce and also 386 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: the coals law on it. And supposedly the way that 387 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 2: this came about is that the kitchen was like running 388 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: low on pork one day, but they still had a 389 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 2: lot of orders coming in and so they just like 390 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 2: added slaw to the sandwiches to fill them out and 391 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 2: it stuck. 392 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 1: Yes, As is often, story makes sense, it makes sense. 393 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: Leonards was also offering barbecue spaghetti by the nineteen fifties, 394 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 1: which yes, is essentially spaghetti topped with barbecued pulled pork 395 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: half moonera and half barbecue saus I'd never heard of this, 396 00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 1: but I'm into it. From what I understand, this is 397 00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: a Memphis specialty, and a lot of other places started 398 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,920 Speaker 1: offering it. From what I also understand, they were not 399 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: the originator of it, but they popularized it. I couldn't 400 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:55,320 Speaker 1: find the originator, but I think it had been around previously. 401 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:58,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I will say out load in case I 402 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: didn't make it clear early. Your Memphis style sauce is 403 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: typically thinner and less sweet than like a Kansas City 404 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,360 Speaker 2: style sauce, which might be what you're thinking of when 405 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 2: you think of American barbecue sauce more generally speaking, So 406 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 2: that might affect how you feel about this half mari 407 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,480 Speaker 2: and EA half barbecue sauce recipe. 408 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: Indeed it might. But let us know opinions we love 409 00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah, huh. Yes, the restaurant Colettas claims 410 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,639 Speaker 1: to be the creators of Memphis style pizza around the 411 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,920 Speaker 1: same time, which, yes, pizza with barbecued pork on top. 412 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: The popular legend behind this is that the owner was 413 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: looking to sell more pizza, which was unfamiliar to some 414 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,560 Speaker 1: city at the time, by topping it with barbecue, which 415 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: he knew. People knew what, they know what that is 416 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: the name of it, so let's put it on there. 417 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 1: Elvis Presley was a huge fan. I kind of love 418 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:03,760 Speaker 1: this because it feels so looking back now, it's like, oh, 419 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: they didn't know, they weren't familiar with pizza. Yeah, not pizza, 420 00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:11,800 Speaker 1: but barbecue on it. Yeah, sure, yeah, I mean I 421 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,560 Speaker 1: get it. I mean, oh sure, yeah. 422 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 2: No, we've talked about the history of pizza and it's 423 00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 2: relatively new to the States. 424 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah, I love it. Let's just put 425 00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,520 Speaker 1: a barbecue on it. I couldn't get to the bottom 426 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 1: of wind exactly, but Memphis style barbecue bologny became a 427 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: popular item in Memphis two possibly around this time. Yeah. 428 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: From a cursory search. 429 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: I think smoked boloney rose to fame in Oklahoma, possibly 430 00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 2: as like a steakhouse side dish in the nineteen seventies. 431 00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 2: But you know, like at a certain point it just 432 00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: makes sense. Like if one has a tube of bolooney 433 00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:59,560 Speaker 2: and one has a barbecue, one might smoke boloney. It's 434 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 2: typically like scored and smoked and then served sliced. Sometimes 435 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: the slices are grilled, sometimes on a sandwich. 436 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:11,760 Speaker 1: That feels like a wisdom need to get printed on 437 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: a business card. One has a tube of bologney, one 438 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: might smoke it. One might smoke it. Indeed, well, listeners, 439 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 1: let us know I loved finding all these dishes I 440 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:31,120 Speaker 1: had never heard about personally. Yeah, yeah, all right, So 441 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: this brings us to a restaurant we've already mentioned a 442 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: couple times. Charlie Vergos founded the restaurant The Rendezvous in 443 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 1: Memphis in nineteen forty eight, at first primarily serving sandwiches. 444 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: The story goes that he started selling dry rub ribs 445 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four after he found an old coal 446 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 1: shoot in the building and decided to convert it into 447 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 1: a charcoal pit for barbecue. Yeah, at first, he had 448 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:02,760 Speaker 1: intended to smoke meats or sandwiches, sell them for cheap, 449 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: and then make money off beer. But it just wasn't 450 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: cutting it, the beer was not cutting it, so an 451 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 1: employee of his suggested that he tries selling ribs and 452 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 1: taught him how to cook them. At the time, ribs 453 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 1: were a cheaper cut of pork. Virgos went on to 454 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: develop a dry rib spice rub that then went on 455 00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: to become hugely popular. The spice mixture was inspired by 456 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: Greek spice mixes passed down in his family, with the 457 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: addition of paprika for color. 458 00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, he'd apparently run into paprika, chili powder, and cayenne 459 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 2: being used in Cajun cuisine in New Orleans and kind of, yeah, 460 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 2: just sort of. 461 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: Added those in. He was like, oh, that's great, let's 462 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,960 Speaker 1: do it. Yeah, And he's been interviewed a lot because 463 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: this place pretty famous in the history of Memphis barbecue. 464 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: But he credited black folks with the method of how 465 00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: he cooked the meat. In a nineteen eighty nine interview 466 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: with Memphis newspaper The Commercial Appeal, you're counted observing black 467 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 1: families in Memphis cooking meat over hot coals in their yards, 468 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: positing black people invented barbecue. Some people label this whole 469 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: thing as the birth of Memphis style dry rub ribs. 470 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 2: And Interestingly, this is not a low and slow barbecue 471 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 2: style of cooking. It's more of a chargrill like. It 472 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 2: only takes about an hour and a half to do 473 00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 2: the Rendezvous ribs versus about three to four hours for 474 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: like a low and slow rib recipe. Rendezvous also does 475 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,160 Speaker 2: not use wood. They only use charcoal. They do use 476 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: wood smoke for other cuts. But anyway, Yeah, it's interesting. 477 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 2: And again, as I said at the top, they don't 478 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: actually dry rub the ribs before they cook them. 479 00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: They use a vinegar mop. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of ways, 480 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: very different than a lot of the other dry breath 481 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: rig situations. Yeah. Post World War Two, rib sandwiches with 482 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,640 Speaker 1: three to four small ribs served between slices of bread 483 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: with sauce and slaw were all the rage in Memphis. 484 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: And these sandwiches were meant to be pulled apart by 485 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:18,840 Speaker 1: your fingers. They were kind of meant to be a 486 00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: whole messy experience. Downtown Memphis took a pretty big hit 487 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: during the sixties with what was called urban renewal. Several 488 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: places were demolished, are relocated, and several barbecue joints closed. 489 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: The Rendezvous dodged closure after moving a block over Yeah. 490 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 2: The city was also a center of the civil rights 491 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 2: movement in the nineteen sixties, including a bunch of important 492 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 2: strikes and the eventual assassination of Martin Luther King Junior. 493 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 2: Through the nineteen sixties and into the seventies, desegregation and 494 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,880 Speaker 2: then suburbanization including a lot of white flight and the 495 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 2: aforementioned urban renewal, including like interstate highways being built right 496 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,440 Speaker 2: through established neighborhoods, just really wrecked established communities. 497 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it really did. But in the face of this, 498 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:21,800 Speaker 1: several well known restaurants opened in the seventies, like Cozy Corner, 499 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: Pains Barbecue, and Interstate Barbecue, for instance. And I know 500 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: people from Memphis are probably like, ah, yes, I know those. 501 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: Memphis's World Championship Barbecue Cooking contest launched with twenty sixteens 502 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy eight. 503 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:46,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And there has been an urban revitalization since then, 504 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 2: including a revival and or continuation of barbecue traditions, with 505 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,160 Speaker 2: popular local chains like an R Barbecue and Quirky's both 506 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 2: opening in the eighties. Quirky's has since expanded into frozen dinners. 507 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:03,360 Speaker 2: Might have seen that at your local grocery store, not 508 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: the chains like these are like the be all and 509 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 2: all of Memphis barbecue, Like a lot of draw still 510 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: goes to smaller joints and stands. 511 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:21,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, look, okay, Kansas City Barbecue is another episode. Yes, 512 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: I want to make that clear, but I feel like 513 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 1: we have to mention this fellow named Henry Perry is 514 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: often credited with launching Kansas City style barbecue. He is 515 00:34:34,719 --> 00:34:38,759 Speaker 1: sometimes called the father of Kansas City barbecue. He got 516 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: his start selling smoked meats in Kansas City in nineteen 517 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: oh eight from a small stand that eventually turned into 518 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 1: a decent sized restaurant. He trained Charlie Bryant, who in 519 00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: turn trained his brother Arthur Bryant. Big names in the 520 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 1: lexicon of Kansas City barbecue history, and then it sort 521 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: of blossomed into its own thing from there. But Perry 522 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: was from Memphis, so do not at me. That's just 523 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: the way it is often presented in sources from Memphis. Oh, 524 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: I was so concerned about this. I went to sources 525 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:22,360 Speaker 1: from Kansas City to see, like is this legit? Like 526 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:26,879 Speaker 1: what's going on? And it's hilarious how differently the two 527 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: cities have depicted the whole thing. Wow, including and this 528 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,000 Speaker 1: could be true. I'm not saying this is false, but 529 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,160 Speaker 1: a lot of the things from Kansas City were like 530 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: he was from somewhere in Tennessee. They never say Memphis. No, no, no, 531 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: no no, and a lot of like they'll say like 532 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: Shelby County. And then I was like that Memphis'mphis is 533 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:55,800 Speaker 1: in Shelby County. Yeah, but I mean maybe he's not. 534 00:35:56,480 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: I don't know. It just cracked me up how much 535 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: they went out of their way not to say Memphis. 536 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,360 Speaker 1: That's really fascinating. 537 00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:10,120 Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, I will say that that you know, 538 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:14,040 Speaker 2: if he started out in nineteen oh eight, that's a 539 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 2: good couple decades before, like especially the kind of bigger 540 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,480 Speaker 2: places started getting rolling in Memphis. 541 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: So that's that's but I don't know, I don't know 542 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,200 Speaker 1: that will be a future US problem. Yep, that's not 543 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:38,840 Speaker 1: for me today. Nope, no, nope. And yeah, that's I 544 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 1: guess that's kind of what we have to. 545 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,320 Speaker 2: Say about Memphis style barbecue. Although I will say that, like, 546 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 2: there is a lot of written and oral lore about 547 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 2: all this out there, if you're curious. Back in twenty fourteen, 548 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,719 Speaker 2: local journalist Craig David Meek published a book called Memphis Barbecue, 549 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 2: A Succulent History of Smoke, Sauce, and Soul. I've not 550 00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:03,040 Speaker 2: read the whole thing, but the excerpts that I've. 551 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: Read are excellent. Yeah, a lot more, a lot more 552 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,640 Speaker 1: out there. Oh, absolutely, there's a lot. People are passionate 553 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: about it. We love that. Oh yeah, and they have 554 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,920 Speaker 1: really written about it. And I've appreciated in a lot 555 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:21,759 Speaker 1: of the reading I did how supportive some of these 556 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: restaurants were. Let's remember this history and let's make. 557 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 2: Sure yeah that we mentioned Yeah, I always love that. 558 00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: So this has been a fun, if frightening. Please listeners 559 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 1: write in, Oh please please, if. 560 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:43,680 Speaker 2: You have personal experiences, if you have strong opinions, we 561 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 2: want to hear them. 562 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: Yes, if you've been at any of these restaurants. Oh yeah, yeah, okay, 563 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: But that is what we have to say about Memphis 564 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:53,719 Speaker 1: style barbecue for now. 565 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 2: It is. We do already have some listening mail for you, though, 566 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 2: and we are going to get into that after we 567 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:01,440 Speaker 2: take one more quick break for a word from our sponsors. 568 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,800 Speaker 1: And we're back. Thank you, sponsor, Yes, thank you, And 569 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:28,400 Speaker 1: we're back with Oh the moment before you eat a 570 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 1: barbecue plate, it's opportunity just awaiting you. Yeah, deliciousness and 571 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,239 Speaker 1: then being uncomfortably full probably probably yeah, why not? But 572 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:45,040 Speaker 1: it was worth it, you know. Yes? So okay, Listener 573 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: Ruth is back. Listener Ruth is our food parody songwriter 574 00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: and everything has been excellent, including this one. Uh so. 575 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:02,320 Speaker 1: This was in response to a message we read about 576 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: Canon Beer and our Listener mail episode. It is set 577 00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: to the tune of a Lime in the Coconut m 578 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,800 Speaker 1: Once again, I will not be singing it, but I 579 00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: will say it. And what I hope is you get 580 00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,920 Speaker 1: the vibe and rhythmic vibe. Yeah, yes, all right, here 581 00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:26,320 Speaker 1: we go. You put the cheese in the pita and 582 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: you toast it all up. And put the cheese in 583 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: the pita and you toast it all up. It's in 584 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,600 Speaker 1: the mail bag. It's in the mail bag, she said. 585 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,160 Speaker 1: You put the cheese in the pita and toast it 586 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: all up. Put the cheese in the pita and you 587 00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: toast it all up. Sound, et cetera. Excellent. You have 588 00:39:56,680 --> 00:40:00,440 Speaker 1: so many great ideas. You need to release the album. 589 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,439 Speaker 1: I don't know the legalities of things, but yeah, yeah, 590 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:06,399 Speaker 1: me me neither. 591 00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 2: I mean, if it falls under parity I think it 592 00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 2: falls under parody. 593 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. I mean, don't stress 594 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: yourself out. But no, no, you enjoy it. 595 00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:22,960 Speaker 2: We do I and I'm only getting more and more 596 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:30,239 Speaker 2: ideas if we ever do a live live episode, horrifying, 597 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:39,560 Speaker 2: embarrassing ideas, great, the best, Lenny, and I hope that 598 00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 2: I'm saying your name correctly. Let me know if I'm not. 599 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 2: Lenny wrote Longtime Listener. From the very start as food 600 00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 2: stuff first time writer, you asked about recipes for pasta salads, 601 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,279 Speaker 2: and somehow a lot of them contained mayo. I would 602 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 2: never base my pasta salad on mayo. I usually add 603 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:00,400 Speaker 2: pesto as the dressing element. In general, I have two 604 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 2: go to recipes for pasta salad, one that is kid 605 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,640 Speaker 2: friendly and one that's usually more for grown ups. Both 606 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 2: can be served cold or warm, depending on when the 607 00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 2: pasta is boiled. In relation to serving so kid friendly 608 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 2: boiled pasta of choice, whatever vegetables you like, like peas, corn, 609 00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 2: sliced tomatoes, diced cucumber, at a mammee, diced bell peppers, 610 00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,360 Speaker 2: et cetera. Some kind of protein like diced ham, chopped 611 00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 2: up fried chicken, diced cheese, green pesto, usually basil, and 612 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,080 Speaker 2: then more for grownups. Boiled pasta of choice have cherry tomatoes, 613 00:41:31,280 --> 00:41:36,240 Speaker 2: garlic cloves, pickled, and chili oil, sliced black olives, diced cherriso, 614 00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 2: slightly cooked to a crisp and red pesto. Also who 615 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 2: needs measurements to make pasta salad? 616 00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:49,719 Speaker 1: This is what I'm learning through all that research, and 617 00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:54,160 Speaker 1: then the following listener mails that's what I have. One 618 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: thing I've learned, and I love it. 619 00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 2: You know. It's like, obviously, you don't use a recipe. 620 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 2: You just put stuff together until it's tough and then 621 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:06,120 Speaker 2: you eat it. Yeah, yeah, which I which I appreciate absolutely. 622 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:07,200 Speaker 1: Mm hmm. 623 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 2: Chopped up fried chicken in a pasta salad, also pesto. 624 00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 2: In general, I am reevaluating a lot of things that 625 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:20,400 Speaker 2: I said about pasta salad right now. 626 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is plus garlic clothes, pickled and chili oil, 627 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,840 Speaker 1: which I know give you a oh don't know. 628 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 2: I think it's spicy chili oil, so I think it's fine. 629 00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:32,479 Speaker 2: Oh the garlic clothes though. 630 00:42:32,440 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 1: Heck, the garlic I feel because you're a vampire, I 631 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: don't I feel like I shouldn't have to remind you 632 00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:39,319 Speaker 1: of this, but you shouldn't. That was great. 633 00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 2: That was I was so focused on the chili oil 634 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:43,720 Speaker 2: part that I entirely forgot that I shouldn't eat garlic. 635 00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,399 Speaker 1: It sounds so good, though, Oh my heck, it does 636 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:52,399 Speaker 1: it does. This is one of those things again where 637 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,919 Speaker 1: I just every now and then when we are doing 638 00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 1: an episode like Memphis Style barbecue or pasta salad, I 639 00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:01,239 Speaker 1: just I feel bad for you, Lauren, because I know 640 00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: the task of explaining it. It's a difficult one. And 641 00:43:07,480 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 1: the more and more I hear from you listeners about 642 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:15,000 Speaker 1: pasta salad, the more and more I'm like, this could 643 00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: be anything. Almost. Oh yeah, yep, oh sounds so good. 644 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,439 Speaker 1: The world is your pasta slid ada in what you want? 645 00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,840 Speaker 1: It does sound good, And thank you listeners for sending 646 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,200 Speaker 1: these in and please keep it, please keep it going. Yes, yes, yes. 647 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,640 Speaker 1: In the meantime, thanks to both of these listeners for 648 00:43:36,719 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: writing to us. If you would like to write to us, 649 00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 1: you can our emails hello at savorpod dot com. 650 00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 2: We're also on social media. You can find us on 651 00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:46,120 Speaker 2: Blue Sky and Instagram at savor pod, and we do 652 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,040 Speaker 2: hope to hear from you. Savor is production of iHeartRadio. 653 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,399 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can visit 654 00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 655 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,360 Speaker 2: your favorite shows. Thanks as always to our super producers 656 00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:00,200 Speaker 2: Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, 657 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:01,799 Speaker 2: and we hope that lots of more good things are 658 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:02,439 Speaker 2: coming your way.