1 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Fixing your attachment issues and abandonment issues one oh one. 2 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,320 Speaker 1: Here's a chat GV two put together for me. Here's 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,120 Speaker 1: a tailored syllabus with a focus on addressing attachment issues 4 00:00:10,160 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: related to seeking male validation. Here's what the course title 5 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,799 Speaker 1: would be, Overcoming Dependency on Male Validation Course description. This 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,680 Speaker 1: course explores attachment and abandonment issues related to seeking male validation. 7 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: Dudeents me. We'll engage with foundational texts and practical guides 8 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 1: to understand the root cause of this dependency and develop 9 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: strategies and building self esteem and healthy relationship. And that's 10 00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: something I'm really looking to do because sometimes with therapy, 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: I feel like we've been talking about the same thing 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: since I was fucking thirteen, you know, But they never 13 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: give you strategies. Sometimes therapy never gives you strategies. You're 14 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: just word vombit for an hour and that feels good 15 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: and that's nice, and you do get somewhere and you 16 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: do learn about yourself, but then you leave and you're like, 17 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: I care, how am I gonna fix this? 18 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: Though? 19 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: When I first thought of going boysover, I can wondering 20 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: what a syllabus would look like for a class on 21 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: unlearning my romantic patterns. So I asked my friend chatchpt 22 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 1: and it gave me a ten week course filled with 23 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: some of the most helpful books I've read during my journey. 24 00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 1: Along the way, I've added some supplemental reading to the list, 25 00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:23,119 Speaker 1: and I'm pushing my latest obsession straight to the top 26 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: of that boys sober syllabus The Dry Season by Melissa Phebos. 27 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: On this episode, we'll talk to the woman who did 28 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: what I could, not give updating, romance and sex for 29 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:42,960 Speaker 1: an entire year. I'm hopewordered and welcome to boys Over 30 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: a space where we're learning and unlearning all the myths 31 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: were taught about love and relationships. Last month, when Melissa 32 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: Phebos's book The Dry Season came out, I couldn't wait 33 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: to read it. I was eager to compare our experiences 34 00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: and maybe a new roadmap to fix my own issues. 35 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: Reading the book, I felt comforted, supported, and inspired to 36 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:12,600 Speaker 1: keep understanding my own relationship to relationships. Melissa came out 37 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: of that year with her brain rewired to not be 38 00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: guided by her old patterns. I wanted to talk to 39 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 1: her to better understand how she did that, to see 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: how we can do the personal work to make real 41 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:34,280 Speaker 1: change in our lives. Melissa, Welcome to Boysover. Thank you 42 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: so much for being. 43 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:37,840 Speaker 3: Here, Thank you so much for having me. 44 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: I also had a goal of giving up sex for 45 00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,760 Speaker 1: a year, but I did not stay as strong as 46 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:50,640 Speaker 1: you did. I think a lot about a quote from 47 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: earlier in your book that really resonated with me. You wrote, 48 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,760 Speaker 1: I did not give up sex to get freedom from men, 49 00:02:56,880 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: though many of the things I wanted freedom from were 50 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 1: inaugurated by them. I had given up sex because my 51 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:04,560 Speaker 1: life had fallen apart and I needed to change that. 52 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 1: Can you walk me through what you wanted to change 53 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 1: most deeply and why giving up sex had to be 54 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: a part of that equation. 55 00:03:12,919 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 3: You know. 56 00:03:13,160 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 4: I think before I started my celibate period, I had 57 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 4: sort of a story about myself and my relationships, and 58 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 4: part of it was that I must be exempt from 59 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 4: compulsory heterosexual behavior to a great extent, because I was 60 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 4: mostly in relationships with women, and I'd been queer my 61 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 4: whole life and identified as a feminist my whole life. 62 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 3: I thought that would protect me. 63 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 4: But then I found myself at this really kind of 64 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 4: ugly bottom. 65 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: I didn't have to look. 66 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 4: At it very hard to be like, oh no, this 67 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 4: looks actually quite familiar. I am like bending myself into 68 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 4: a pretzel, trying to be the perfect partner, sort of 69 00:03:56,640 --> 00:04:00,680 Speaker 4: making compromises without even being asked to, and and a 70 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 4: lot of them popped up in the sexual realm of 71 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 4: my life, which was really disturbing and surprising to see. 72 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 3: You know. 73 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 4: I realized pretty early in my celibacy that I was 74 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 4: having and had been having a lot of sex that 75 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 4: I felt ambivalent about. Like I was having good sex 76 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,000 Speaker 4: across my adult life too, but I really had this 77 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 4: buried belief that I could only say I wasn't in 78 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 4: the mood so many times before I had to just 79 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 4: do it, you know, even when I had partners who, 80 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 4: in hindsight absolutely would not have wanted me to be 81 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 4: doing that. It was just like my programming, and so 82 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 4: I thought, Okay, this is an inside job. I'm going 83 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:42,840 Speaker 4: to have to get in there and do some rewiring 84 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 4: because this cannot go on. 85 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: I think you talk about choosing versus using, and that 86 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 1: is something I have a difficult time with when it 87 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: comes to sex, because I think often sex for me 88 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: is like a bit of escape, and it's just easier 89 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: to say yes, than it is to like really express 90 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:04,839 Speaker 1: and contemplate how you feel. So I resonate with this 91 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: sense of using sex to avoid something else, and I 92 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:12,239 Speaker 1: know that comes up in conversations of recovery. You obviously 93 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: have a long history with recovery, so giving something up 94 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: and doing this kind of untangling is not new for you. 95 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: But I think sex and abstinence specifically was new. Can 96 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: you talk about the differences between like this kind of 97 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:31,280 Speaker 1: recovery versus a substance. 98 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 4: I was really grateful for the tools that I had 99 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:38,840 Speaker 4: learned in recovery. I've been sober in twelve step from 100 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 4: drugs and alcohol for more than ten years when I 101 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:44,279 Speaker 4: did this, so I had worked the steps the number 102 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 4: of times, and the tools I learned in sobriety were 103 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 4: tools that applied to every situation, not just addictive situations. 104 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 4: So I sort of knew what to do, and I thought, 105 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 4: all right, I'll just use all of the tools at 106 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 4: my disposal to try to figure out what is going 107 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 4: on with my reallyationship to this. Because I know that 108 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:05,039 Speaker 4: there is a compulsive element, even if it's not like 109 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 4: a full fledged addiction, I'm definitely exhibiting some of those 110 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 4: behaviors where I want to change and I can't, and 111 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 4: I feel a little bit powerless over it. I mean, 112 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 4: just abstinence itself. I was like, I'll start with ninety days, 113 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 4: and that was like a unit of measurement that I 114 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 4: knew from sobriety. It was sort of a detox period. 115 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 4: And then I decided to make an inventory because I 116 00:06:27,080 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 4: knew you can't know what's really going on until you 117 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 4: take stock, and so I made a really long list 118 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 4: and started examining it. 119 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: I want to talk about that inventory you took because 120 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: I loved the questions. I'm going to read them really quickly. 121 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: Where have I been selfish? Where have I been dishonest? 122 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 1: Where have I have been inconsiderate? Whom have I hurt? 123 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: Where was I at fault? What should I have done instead? 124 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: These are powerful questions, and I don't think everyone takes 125 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: the time to turn those questions internal. Can you tell 126 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: me you uncovered about yourself through these questions? 127 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 3: Yeah? 128 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 4: It was incredibly deep and super uncomfortable for me to 129 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 4: perform this kind of autopsy on my own behavior. But 130 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 4: it was also so heartening because I had this story 131 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 4: about myself for most of my life, like I'm a 132 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 4: really passionate person, I'm a romantic I'm just the kind 133 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 4: of person who falls in love a lot. 134 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 3: And I had this sort of heroic image. 135 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 4: Of myself because I had worked really, really hard in 136 00:07:33,080 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 4: my relationships, like I felt like I had compromised a lot. 137 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 4: I had sort of toiled in the salt mine of 138 00:07:39,520 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 4: my own mind and expectations and really tried to avoid 139 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 4: conflict and keep my partners from being disappointed and sort 140 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 4: of syncopate our tastes in ways that were sometimes very 141 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 4: uncomfortable for me. And I had in many ways short 142 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 4: changed all my other interests in the service of what 143 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 4: I thought was being a good partner. And when I 144 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 4: answered these questions, I thought, wait, what is dishonesty? Is 145 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 4: it overlying or is it also omission? And it is 146 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 4: also omission? And when I thought about the catalog of 147 00:08:15,680 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 4: things I had omitted from my relationships, it was groundshaking. 148 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 4: I thought, Oh, no, I have not been doing what 149 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 4: I thought I was doing. 150 00:08:27,200 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 3: In fact, it had. 151 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 4: Been like a form of manipulation. And I believed then 152 00:08:32,800 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 4: and I believe now, that when you withhold large swaths 153 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 4: of reality, whether it's your personality or other truths from someone. 154 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 4: You are taking away their agency. You are preventing them 155 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 4: from understanding their whole reality and therefore making it impossible 156 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 4: for them to make true choices. And that is not 157 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 4: heroic behavior. 158 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 3: It's actually exploded of behavior. 159 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, it didn't feel great, but it also made me 160 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:07,400 Speaker 4: feel really empowered because before I had done the inventory, 161 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 4: I thought, I don't know what to do. I'm doing 162 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 4: all this work and it's still sort of going wrong 163 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,800 Speaker 4: every time. And when I looked at the real truth 164 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 4: of how complicit I had been and the dissolution of 165 00:09:18,360 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 4: my relationships and why they hadn't worked, I thought, oh, 166 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 4: I have a huge part in this, and therefore there's 167 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 4: a lot of things that I can change. 168 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 3: So it gave me like a to do list. 169 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 4: It made me feel really hopeful as soon as I 170 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 4: finished being sort of devastated about my own role. 171 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I resonate with this word omission, and I do 172 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: think it's something we're kind of taught as women. If 173 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: you just hold back your wants and needs, that is 174 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 1: the best thing you can do for someone. When in 175 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: all honesty, it is being honest and being truthful. The 176 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 1: desire element of all of this, I think a lot 177 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: of times we can think about desire as a really 178 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: empowering thing. Oh women, we can finally have desire. Now, 179 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: what a beautiful and liberatory thing. Right, But can you 180 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,040 Speaker 1: talk about how your relationship to desire has changed and 181 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: how you see it now. 182 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 4: It changed forever that year? 183 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 2: You know. 184 00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 4: I think there's sort of this very basic instinct that 185 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 4: we have for desire and longing and the erotic, and 186 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 4: it is absolutely gorgeous and totally natural in all of 187 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 4: its forms. Right, But because I have this very specific 188 00:10:33,320 --> 00:10:38,679 Speaker 4: brain that when it gets certain tastes, brain chemicals, gets 189 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 4: very hungry for more, irrespective of the consequence or the 190 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 4: emotional reality. 191 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can just find. 192 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 4: A way to turn any good natural instinct into like 193 00:10:50,440 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 4: something that's going to hurt me in other people. And 194 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 4: so I remember being like twelve, thirteen, maybe even younger, 195 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 4: and getting that fluttery feeling for other people and it's emotional, psychological, physical, 196 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 4: and just locking into it like a little pitfull and 197 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 4: being like, that's what I want. More is better and 198 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 4: chasing it to the decriment of my own social reality, 199 00:11:17,200 --> 00:11:19,960 Speaker 4: my own physical reality. And when I was really young, 200 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 4: I would get into situations where I would sort of 201 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,720 Speaker 4: chase that feeling. I didn't feel like I was allowed 202 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 4: to say no when I got into sexual situations where 203 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 4: there was an expectation, and so I had a lot 204 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,160 Speaker 4: of sexual experiences that I consented to but that I 205 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 4: didn't feel great about, and that really sort of colored 206 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 4: my relationship to sex and desire. And as I got 207 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 4: older in many ways that continued. But I also ended 208 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 4: up getting into emotional entanglements where I didn't really reciprocate 209 00:11:54,720 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 4: the feelings that the people I was involved with were, 210 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 4: but I had been chasing that yummy brain chemical feeling, 211 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,119 Speaker 4: and then I ended up hurting people and sending mixed messages, 212 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 4: and my behavior and my sort of erotic inclinations were 213 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:14,040 Speaker 4: like not lined up with my emotional attachments like in 214 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 4: the inventory. 215 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 3: It was very repetitive. 216 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 4: It was like, oh, I was chasing a certain set 217 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 4: of feelings, got into an emotional entanglement where the other 218 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:25,439 Speaker 4: person was emotionally involved, and hurt them by being like 219 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 4: I'm not really into this, over and over and over again. 220 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:31,560 Speaker 1: I don't know if you resonate with this, but I 221 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: know for me, it is the chase that is so delicious, 222 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: Like you said, having that hunger and playing that game 223 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: and playing that part, and then you get to the 224 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 1: finish line, so to speak, and then it's like, wait, 225 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: this isn't fun for me anymore. And then the other 226 00:12:46,559 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: person is like, wait, but I thought this is what 227 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: you wanted, and you're like me too, I don't know, like. 228 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I mean I mostly was dating women, and. 229 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:58,280 Speaker 3: Women moved fast emotionally, and. 230 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 4: So the stakes got hot I really fast. 231 00:13:01,920 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: Totally. 232 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I made a mess a lot of times. 233 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 4: Like one of the big resolutions that I got to 234 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 4: as a result of that time and as a result 235 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 4: of the inventory was slow down, totally, low down and 236 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 4: match up. Where are you actually emotionally? Are you just 237 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 4: chasing a feeling? Are you really interested in this person? 238 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 4: Go as slow as you need to so that you 239 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 4: actually know what's going on and you're not just high 240 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 4: on adrenaline and serotonin and dopamine. 241 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,719 Speaker 3: Like, just let it settle. 242 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 4: And make sure that your actions are aligning with your 243 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 4: emotional reality. And for me, that means taking a beat 244 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,680 Speaker 4: and being like, where am I actually? Let's just like 245 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 4: let that initial thrill settle down so that I can 246 00:13:50,520 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 4: figure out where my actual feelings lie. So that it 247 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 4: don't hurt anybody and I don't create wreckage and have 248 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 4: to make amends. 249 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: I think one of the most difficult things for me 250 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 1: is like really untangling a compulsion or an honest feeling. 251 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:25,200 Speaker 1: And I was surprised and super interested in how this 252 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: book examines religion and spirituality specifically because I think in 253 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: the beginning of my celibacy journey, I got a little 254 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: bit angry because I felt like it had been turned 255 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 1: into this like purity project and all these religious memories 256 00:14:41,160 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: of growing up came back to me where I was 257 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 1: just really mad at having praise for celibacy. But it 258 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: sounds like your relationship to spirituality kind of shifted and 259 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: maybe even specifically prayer. Can you talk about that kind 260 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: of transformation? And like where you hold prayer now? Is 261 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: that where you find the difference between what you really 262 00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: want and what you might think you want. 263 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, And it has everything to do with that pause, right, 264 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:13,320 Speaker 4: Like it's just not in my makeup to have a 265 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,160 Speaker 4: pause or to give myself the space and the grace 266 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 4: to understand what is really true for me, Like I 267 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 4: am such a little animal in that way, and so 268 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 4: I need a set of practices like I need something greater. 269 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 4: And I'm careful in how I talk about this because 270 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 4: I don't come from a super religious background. My dad 271 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 4: is like a fervent ex Catholic, and so I have judgments, 272 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 4: but I didn't have trauma around spirituality and I didn't 273 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 4: have any sort of framework for practicing it. So when 274 00:15:43,880 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 4: I sort of was on my knees in like not 275 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 4: a spiritual way, like my life is kind of ruined, 276 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 4: what am I going to do? 277 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 3: Way I was in that. 278 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 4: State in the foxhol you become willing to do things 279 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 4: that you weren't willing before, and I thought, Okay, I 280 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,600 Speaker 4: need to be open to things that I wasn't open 281 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 4: to before because my way of doing things is not working. 282 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 3: I need new role models. 283 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,360 Speaker 4: Because I had always sort of worshiped these famous artists 284 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 4: who were total res in their love lives because they 285 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,760 Speaker 4: need to ratify my own behavior, and I needed to 286 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,960 Speaker 4: proof that someone could be an exciting artist and also 287 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 4: be totally chaotic in their love life. And when that 288 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 4: crashed and burned for me, I was like, I need 289 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 4: a new model for living, and so I started reading 290 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,720 Speaker 4: about women who were voluntarily celibate but were also incredibly powerful, 291 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 4: and pretty quickly I got to like Nuns and I 292 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 4: was like, you really, like, I don't think this is 293 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 4: going to be fruitful for me, But almost instantly it was. 294 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 4: And I realized really quickly that these very spiritual women 295 00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 4: across history had been living incredibly powerful, ambitious, creative, erotic 296 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 4: lives that were very much like the kind of life 297 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 4: I wanted. I thought, all right, let me set down 298 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 4: my biases, let me set down this helpful education that 299 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 4: my dad gave me, and humble myself a little bit, 300 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:06,479 Speaker 4: and see what there is here for me. Do I 301 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 4: actually know better than centuries of self actualized women across 302 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 4: history who flourished and changed their societies and lived in 303 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 4: total accordance with their own beliefs, which is something that 304 00:17:18,600 --> 00:17:19,480 Speaker 4: I've failed to. 305 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:20,360 Speaker 1: Do in this tiime. 306 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 4: And I just opened my mind and I thought, what 307 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,399 Speaker 4: do I have to learn from these people who drew 308 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 4: strength from spiritual sources and from their conception of higher 309 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 4: powers and used it to live in accordance with their 310 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 4: own beliefs and had these incredibly ambitious, beautiful lives in 311 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 4: a time when it was like literally illegal. And I 312 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 4: found myself living in what felt like a surprising beautiful lineage, 313 00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 4: and prayer suddenly meant something very different to me. It 314 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 4: wasn't like the prostration to this patriarchal male figure that 315 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,080 Speaker 4: I had always thought it was. It was just a 316 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 4: gesture of surrender to something greater that had to do 317 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,959 Speaker 4: with nature and female lineage and the community of women 318 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 4: and sort of queer folks that I felt deeply connected 319 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,520 Speaker 4: to across space and time. 320 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know why that makes me so emotional, 321 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 1: Like I just I feel like maybe the concept of prayer, 322 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,720 Speaker 1: you know, has been so twisted and so to think 323 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: of it in that way. I loved when you said 324 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: prayer is the person praying, and God is whatever answers. 325 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: You talk about celibacy and abundance, and it seems like 326 00:18:37,920 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: your spiritual life has like grown in a lot of 327 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: abundant ways. Can you talk a little bit about what 328 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 1: you've gained over the last year. 329 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 4: I think like my friendship's almost instantly deepened, and I 330 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,639 Speaker 4: had this very romantic experience with my friends where I 331 00:18:56,720 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 4: was able to sort of find true love and affection 332 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 4: and emotional depth, and like it just made space for 333 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 4: intimacy in my other relationships like family, friends, other kinds 334 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:14,159 Speaker 4: of animals art. I described this painting that is actually 335 00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 4: on the cover of the book, and you said earlier 336 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 4: that the chase is the best part, and that was 337 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 4: one thousand percent true for me. I had this super 338 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 4: erotic crush on this painting, but I'm never going to 339 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,600 Speaker 4: consummate my crush on a painting, so I just get 340 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 4: to kind of live in the eros of my feelings 341 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,600 Speaker 4: about that art work. And that felt like a revelation 342 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 4: to me, where I was like, Oh, I don't have 343 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 4: to consummate it. I can just stay this feeling and 344 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 4: love this feeling and use that source of energy to 345 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,160 Speaker 4: make art and appreciate it and just let the world 346 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 4: in a way that is not using other. 347 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 3: People for that source. 348 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,359 Speaker 4: I can just be a conduit of that energy, and 349 00:19:57,400 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 4: I can use it to push it outward and really 350 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 4: p deductive ways. And my relationship to food totally changed 351 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 4: because for the first time in my life, it wasn't like, well, what. 352 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 3: Do you want to eat? 353 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 4: Well, what do you want to eat that would be 354 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:12,639 Speaker 4: fine with me? I was alone in my apartment like, 355 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 4: oh my god, I'm so hungry. 356 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 3: What would make me the happiest? 357 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 4: Is it like a plate of chocolate and cheese and strawberries, 358 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 4: like I'm going to eat that in bed at midnight. 359 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 4: Every sensual experience in my life really opened up and 360 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,719 Speaker 4: became more vivid than it had ever been before. And 361 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 4: it's been sort of the project of my life since 362 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 4: then to really hold on to that and stay open 363 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:41,320 Speaker 4: to all of that, even when I'm in romantic relationships 364 00:20:41,359 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 4: with other people. 365 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 1: I also fell in love with the painting, but I 366 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: did consummate it by getting it as a tattoo, and 367 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: then I immediately regret of it, and now I'm getting 368 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:54,080 Speaker 1: it removed like so fun. No, it was bad, Like 369 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: I got the biggest tattoo of my life and I 370 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 1: was like, I didn't meet her on my arm. 371 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 3: I love that, I feel so seeing. 372 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 4: I just just so you know, I just got a 373 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 4: massive cover up tattoo on my lower back because there 374 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 4: were multiple people's names back there from earlier her life, 375 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 4: and I was like, these don't mean what they once did, 376 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 4: so I'm going to start a new chapter. 377 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 1: It's really inspiring this language you use, like you don't 378 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: have to consummate something. And I was talking to my 379 00:21:27,320 --> 00:21:29,959 Speaker 1: therapist the other day about a female friendship that I 380 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:33,199 Speaker 1: have that always felt kind of romantic, and I was like, 381 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,159 Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on, and she was like 382 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: my therapist was like, we always want to consummate something, 383 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: and maybe just a truth about that is like you 384 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: don't have to, Like you can just live in that 385 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: feeling of love and appreciate it. You don't have to 386 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: do something so drastic. 387 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 3: It's true. 388 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 4: I think it's like biological. Yeah, it's like biological, but 389 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 4: it's also kind of capitalist, right, Like you want it, 390 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 4: you get it, you can have it, and having it 391 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,240 Speaker 4: is sometimes not as good as wanting it. Sometimes watching 392 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,920 Speaker 4: it is the best part. 393 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I completely agree. You talk a lot about these 394 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,879 Speaker 1: beautiful moments like having cheese and strawberries in like a 395 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: delicious bed all by yourself. But something you quoted your 396 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: psychotherapist friend saying where she was like, I think you're 397 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,360 Speaker 1: going to get really depressed. You might even get suicidal. 398 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: That resonated with me specifically because I was like, yeah, 399 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: I got there, like in the earlier parts of my 400 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 1: experience with this. So I wanted to ask you if 401 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: you had any down, bad moments where you just maybe 402 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:38,399 Speaker 1: even felt dangerous in some ways. 403 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I didn't get quite too the depths 404 00:22:42,240 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 4: that she postulated, but there definitely were moments like, you know, 405 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 4: I had never thought that I was afraid to be alone, 406 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,640 Speaker 4: but I had just been running so hard away from 407 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 4: it for so long that I never gave myself a 408 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 4: chance to feel. 409 00:22:57,920 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 3: How I felt about being alone. 410 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,280 Speaker 4: And I I think when I first sort of pulled 411 00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:05,400 Speaker 4: the veil back and saw who I had actually been 412 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 4: in the past, it was pretty devastating to have it 413 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 4: revealed that I am not the person I thought I was, 414 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 4: and that in fact I compromised and. 415 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 3: Used these other people and really hurt them. 416 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 4: That felt really ugly and made me feel pretty hopeless. 417 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,400 Speaker 3: And there was also like a couple. 418 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 4: Of moments during that year where I sort of clicked 419 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 4: back into my old behavior, like I really had to 420 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 4: be inside of the reality of the fact that I 421 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 4: could absolutely go back and continue what I was doing 422 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:38,919 Speaker 4: and just hate myself. That was very much an option, 423 00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 4: and I thought, do I really have the agency that 424 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 4: I've been working for? 425 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 3: Can I stop this? 426 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 4: And thankfully the answer turned out to be yes, But 427 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:49,439 Speaker 4: it was a narrow margin. 428 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 3: It was not easy. 429 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 4: I really had to, like Marshal, the gumption of all 430 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 4: of everything I'd learned and the parts of me that 431 00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 4: really wanted to live a more true existence. 432 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 5: It's a practice, like you have to just keep exercising 433 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:09,159 Speaker 5: those new behaviors or for me, I will absolutely slip 434 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 5: back into my old programming. 435 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:11,479 Speaker 3: Yeah. 436 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 1: I think there's really something to be said about healing 437 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 1: never having a finish line, because I think so many 438 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:19,919 Speaker 1: of us we want to heal and just be like, Okay, 439 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 1: checked that box. But I know in my experience too, 440 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: like you said, that old programming is always there. Something 441 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 1: that really resonated with me that I think came out 442 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,679 Speaker 1: of your inventory once you sort of read it to 443 00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: your spiritual leader. Would you call them your role model, 444 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 1: your confidante? 445 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I call them the spiritual director, but the. 446 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 1: Director okay, and I need to find one of my own. 447 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 1: That's something that I was really thinking is I was like, 448 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: who could I read my notebook to? That's not the internet, 449 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Because that anyways, she said 450 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: something that I think was so powerful that resonated with me, 451 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: talking about the difference between or maybe there's no difference 452 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,840 Speaker 1: between people pleasing and people using. 453 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I have seen the pattern in the inventory, 454 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 4: but I am really good at avoiding the full breadth 455 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 4: of unflattering truths, and I knew that about myself, So 456 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 4: I thought, let me share this with someone who loves 457 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 4: me but is not going to flatter me, who will 458 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 4: be honest about what they hear here. I shared it 459 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 4: with them and they were like, look, you have some 460 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:37,360 Speaker 4: really understandable reasons for having this behavior, but like I'm 461 00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 4: going to land a really harsh truth on you. 462 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 3: And you're a user. 463 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 4: You've used these people. And I was like, but I've 464 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 4: been such a people pleaser, and they said, Melissa, people 465 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,200 Speaker 4: pleasing is people using And I almost like fell out, 466 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 4: like I almost turned to ash because I it was 467 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 4: like instantly I knew it was true, and it all 468 00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 4: just kind of clicked into place, and I thought, I've 469 00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 4: not been trying to keep them happy because I care 470 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 4: about their happiness, or I care about their happiness because 471 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 4: it makes me feel safe, and disappointing other people or 472 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 4: them being upset with me creates so much anxiety in 473 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 4: me that I am willing to manipulate reality to whatever 474 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 4: extent necessary to keep everybody happy with me all the time. 475 00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:23,120 Speaker 3: And I am exhausted. 476 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 4: And it is also a form of really comprehensive dishonesty 477 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,480 Speaker 4: and manipulation, and I thought, these are not loving acts, 478 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 4: these are fear based acts. These are manipulative acts. And 479 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 4: it just instantly colored my whole past in a way 480 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 4: that like I had sort of seen, but I hadn't 481 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,120 Speaker 4: fully seen. And I was like, got it. This has 482 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 4: been a lose lose situation. 483 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: I love the way you say that, like it's like, okay, 484 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 1: like so sure, I know that when i'm people, please, 485 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 1: I'm maybe dancing around some truth, But when a trusted 486 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: friend says something like that, it is so un ignorable. 487 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:07,120 Speaker 1: I love the conversation around generosity disconnected from fear. Can 488 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: you talk about how you untangle generosity from fear? Now? 489 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:14,000 Speaker 4: That was one of the biggest takeaways of that year 490 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 4: and the one that has been most instrumental in my 491 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,360 Speaker 4: love life. Now you know, I'm married. Now, I've been 492 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 4: married for it'll be four years very soon. And my 493 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 4: definition of love, which used to be much more based 494 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 4: on like pop songs and love stories and like if 495 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 4: you find the right person, you'll never fight and it'll 496 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 4: just click into place, and it really was all just 497 00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:42,880 Speaker 4: like sexy descriptions of dependency. My definition of love now, 498 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 4: which I came up with that year, is not based 499 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 4: on dependency, It is not based on need. It is 500 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 4: based on our full agency, choosing the other person every 501 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,000 Speaker 4: single day that we are with them, choosing to support 502 00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 4: their flourishing even when it's not exactly what we want 503 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 4: from them in that moment. It's a much more autonomous 504 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 4: definition of love. My wife and I are separate people 505 00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 4: and sometimes we need separate things. We both need a 506 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 4: lot of alone time. We don't always sleep in the 507 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,239 Speaker 4: same bed, we don't always want to have sex at 508 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 4: the same times, and we have cultivated a relationship where 509 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 4: those differences don't threaten our attachment because we don't need 510 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 4: the other person. We want to be with them, enjoy 511 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:34,680 Speaker 4: our life together, and choose it every single day, hour 512 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 4: by hour. And of course there are compromises and things 513 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 4: you do for your partner that are what you necessarily 514 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 4: most want to be doing in that moment, but they 515 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 4: are not compromises that allied essential parts of our being, 516 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 4: and they're not compromises that hide our true wants and desires. 517 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 4: We're very honest about who we are, and that's not 518 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 4: always easy. But I would not be able to do 519 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 4: it without that being definition of love and be without 520 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 4: having a willing collaborator who also treasures the person I 521 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 4: actually am and not the person I'm trying to oregon 522 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 4: me myself into. 523 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:25,720 Speaker 2: To keep her happy. 524 00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: Do you think without this year of taking time to 525 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: be alone with yourself, do you think you and your 526 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: wife would have found each other or do you think 527 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: you would have the relationship you have now? Or do 528 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:46,320 Speaker 1: you think this moment really sort of set you up 529 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: to be with someone in this way? 530 00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 4: Oh a thousand percent, it would not have worked. 531 00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:56,760 Speaker 6: We might have found each other because chemistry, you know, 532 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 6: but I would have wrecked it. I would have I 533 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 6: would have done what I always did in the past. 534 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 5: I would have gone way too fast, and then I 535 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 5: would have been like. 536 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,239 Speaker 3: Eh, what is this? I can't you know. 537 00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 4: I would not have had the tools to communicate to 538 00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 4: her the kind of relationship that I really wanted. And so, 539 00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 4: like literally, on like our first date, I was like, look, 540 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 4: I've had this period of celibacy. This is what I've 541 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,640 Speaker 4: done in the past. I don't want to do that anymore. 542 00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 4: I need a lot of alone time. I really want 543 00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 4: to be honest and have radical communication. And she was like, yes, 544 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 4: let's go. 545 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,880 Speaker 1: I love to hear this. There's a moment in your 546 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: book you mentioned pinning a list on your wall of 547 00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 1: twelve things you wanted to embody in your future relationships. 548 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 1: Can you quickly talk about how you came up with 549 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: those twelve things. 550 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 4: I came up with that list in the second half 551 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 4: of that year, after I had read the inventory to 552 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 4: my mentor and sat with it, and as I was 553 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 4: turning towards like, Okay, if I am ever going to 554 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,680 Speaker 4: be in another relationship, I can't just be operating on 555 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 4: instinct or on vibes. I need very clear guidelines because 556 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 4: my instincts have gotten me to the. 557 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,719 Speaker 3: Place I don't want to go back to. So I 558 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 3: really I went back. 559 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 4: And I looked at the inventory, and I looked at 560 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 4: the behaviors, and I thought, what are the opposite of 561 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 4: these behaviors? 562 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 3: What is the. 563 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,640 Speaker 4: Opposite of people pleasing? What is the opposite of omitting 564 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 4: true things about myself? What is the opposite of these 565 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 4: messy little entanglements? And so I sort of came up 566 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,560 Speaker 4: with this mirror version, like no getting involved with people 567 00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,600 Speaker 4: who are already involved with other people, No hiding parts 568 00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:47,200 Speaker 4: of myself that I think will be unacceptable to the 569 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 4: other person. 570 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 3: It's basically a description. 571 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 4: Of like a radically honest approach to dating, going slow, 572 00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 4: not having sex if I don't want to not having 573 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,959 Speaker 4: sex before I know something, which, like, it feels important 574 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,719 Speaker 4: to say that these are not universal guidelines, and there 575 00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 4: are people who can do the things that I did 576 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 4: and not make a mess of their life and other people's. 577 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 4: But for me specifically, there were very clear patterns that 578 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 4: made me feel ashamed of myself, and I was like, 579 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 4: I don't ever want to do the things that make 580 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 4: me feel that way again or that hurt other people. 581 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you are embodying those twelve things? 582 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: And is there a reason why you chose the number twelve? 583 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 3: You know, that's really funny. 584 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 4: No one's actually ever pointed that out, and I've never 585 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 4: thought about the fact that there are twelve, but it 586 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 4: feels like the number twelve has a kind of emotional 587 00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 4: home for me. I have a good adde totally, but yeah, 588 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 4: I think not in every minute of my life and 589 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,680 Speaker 4: my embodying them, Like, of course, there are still moments 590 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:55,760 Speaker 4: in my relationship where the should energy gets really loud, 591 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 4: and like my wife and I have taken periods of 592 00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 4: celibacy inside of our relationlationship to do the process when 593 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 4: it feels like the internal pressure of expectations is getting 594 00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 4: kind of weird or like we've definitely used all of 595 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,720 Speaker 4: the tools that I gleaned in that year, like inside 596 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 4: of our relationship, but those twelve guidelines have remained my 597 00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,880 Speaker 4: north star, and I do feel like over the course 598 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 4: of the whole time, it has absolutely been the thing 599 00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 4: I am reaching for and the ideal that I am 600 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 4: holding and the sort of home that I return to. 601 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 4: And for me, it has to be explicit like that, 602 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 4: like I needed to have an actual list that I 603 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 4: like printed out and looked at. 604 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: I think doing the inventory and then looking at your 605 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:47,520 Speaker 1: personal habits, patterns, whatever, is probably one of the only 606 00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: ways to do it in a way that is correct, 607 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: to personalize it. Lastly, I love the way you ended 608 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: the book you wrote, just it's so simple. Begin here, 609 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: it's raining that feels like a bit of an invitation 610 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 1: to people, and I'm just wondering, like what you would 611 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: say to someone who's sort of at the beginning and 612 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: it's a bit of a it's a bit of a storm. 613 00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: This is personal. 614 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, totally very happy to some of it we've already 615 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 4: touched on totally. 616 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 3: Start small, like I can't. 617 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 4: As soon as something seems like too big to face, 618 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,840 Speaker 4: I run right into the thing that's been comforting me, 619 00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,919 Speaker 4: and I go right to my most comforting escapes. And 620 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 4: then it becomes a kind of feedback loop where I 621 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 4: feel like I failed, Like think about what actually feels 622 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 4: feasible and define the parameters of it very clearly, think 623 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 4: about what is the thing that you really need respite from. 624 00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 4: And for me, it turned out to be like, really 625 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,920 Speaker 4: it was like sex with other people, but not just 626 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:54,319 Speaker 4: sex for me. It was really the like psycho emotional 627 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 4: complex of that feeling that I was chasing. 628 00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 3: Sex was just part of it. For me. 629 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:03,080 Speaker 4: It was okay to masturbate, but not to flirt, like 630 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,840 Speaker 4: really think about what the crux of it is. 631 00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 3: For you, and. 632 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,799 Speaker 4: Marshal your community to help you, Like I sort of 633 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 4: talk to people who had had similar experiences, talked to 634 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 4: my therapist about it, had a little team that was 635 00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:20,600 Speaker 4: doing it with me, Like I've never been able to 636 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,400 Speaker 4: change myself in isolation. 637 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 3: It just doesn't work for me. 638 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,759 Speaker 4: It's like doing surgery on myself, Like I can't I 639 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 4: need the support of a community that really gets the project, 640 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 4: like you need more than two hands to sort of 641 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 4: carry you through that process. 642 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,400 Speaker 1: You are so inspiring and really have provided such a 643 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 1: framework of doing this in a way that is empowering 644 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: and is not covered in some sort of like in 645 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 1: a beautifully spiritual and empowering way. So thank you so 646 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: much for coming on and having this show with me. 647 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,080 Speaker 1: Appreciate it so much. 648 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. I love talking with you. And 649 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,800 Speaker 4: when you do decide to do the rest of the year. 650 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 3: Call me listen. 651 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 1: I'm going slow one day at a time. Be careful 652 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: what you wish for, Melissa, because I will be calling 653 00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,280 Speaker 1: you whenever I start to doubt my new Boysover journey. 654 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: But for now, that conversation is definitely enough inspiration for 655 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: me to keep heading down the right path. Thanks so 656 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,200 Speaker 1: much to Melissa for talking to us and for her 657 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 1: wonderful book. I urge everyone to go read it. Thanks y'all, 658 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: and talk next week. Boysover is a production of iHeart Podcasts. 659 00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:48,240 Speaker 1: I'm Your Host, Hopewordard. Our executive producers are Christina Everett 660 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily meronoff engineering 661 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:57,640 Speaker 1: by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Aboo Zafar. 662 00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and 663 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober 664 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, and wherever you get 665 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.