1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from house stuff Works 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, you're welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: There's Charles w Chuck Bryant, there's Nol. He's back. He's 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 1: actually sitting in for this one. And that makes this 5 00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: stuff you should know. Yeah, we left a trail of 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: breadcrumbs or pebbles, depending on what part of the episode. 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: That's right, we're talking about that's that's my favorite one. 8 00:00:30,560 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 1: Now that in the Juniper Tree or my favorite and 9 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,839 Speaker 1: the juniper tree. Yeah, and we should say this is 10 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,360 Speaker 1: a two parter um. You should have already previously listened 11 00:00:41,360 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: to one. We probably should have put this one out 12 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: first and then done the other one. Hey, but whatever, 13 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,280 Speaker 1: what evs we we just think this is a nice 14 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed these two. Actually, I think if you 15 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 1: can make the case that we did it in the 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: right or because now people have thought about fairy tales 17 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: and have jailed and bathed in them for like the 18 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,320 Speaker 1: last day or so, and now they're ready to understand 19 00:01:03,360 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: what's been haunting them. But where did they come from? Right? 20 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 1: What's the deal? And we're going to tell you what's 21 00:01:09,080 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: the deal? This is I really did enjoy these O. 22 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: This kind of reignited my kind of brought up a 23 00:01:14,360 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: lot of stuff. Oh yeah, did you find yourself weeping? 24 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Not weeping, just kind of like remembering childhood? And I 25 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: don't know, I enjoyed it. I guess I didn't read 26 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:26,759 Speaker 1: that many fairy tales. It reminded me that fairy tales 27 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: are No, they're not awful, they're just very um dark, Yes, 28 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: but I appreciate that part. I think it's more just 29 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:40,200 Speaker 1: the have you ever have you ever seen a picture 30 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 1: of a human being without a face. Uh yeah, I 31 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: think that's kind of how I think of fairy tales. 32 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: They're they're blank, they're anonymous, they're um flat. I think 33 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: it's that I've actually run into that term a lot 34 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: in researching for this episode. There's certainly not a lot 35 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: of character development and oh and that's part of like 36 00:02:01,240 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: their charm, their lure. But it's also like, you know, 37 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: that's the memory I formed of them is like, um, 38 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,679 Speaker 1: I'm used to characters or psychologist is lacking as well, 39 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 1: like people do stuff for almost no apparent reason whatsoever, 40 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 1: and a lot of it's horrible stuff. Um. And that's 41 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: actually kind of set the stage for fairy tales to 42 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:25,359 Speaker 1: be told and retold and retold and interpreted and analyzed. 43 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: And um, I think that's what makes them so enduring 44 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:33,000 Speaker 1: is that they are there's there's there're so minimalists that 45 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: they just survive because humans will change an update and 46 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 1: we'll go from wearing bell bottoms and macromay vest to 47 00:02:42,040 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: wearing like silver jump suits, which are in right now. Um, 48 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: But ultimately we're still like very similar to what we were, 49 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, sixty years ago. And I think fairy tales 50 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 1: um reflect that well said. And also I can say 51 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: that because from what I understand, despite the fact that 52 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: there is serious study of fairy tales, no one really 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 1: has any definitive say over what they are. Like trying 54 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 1: to define what a fairy tale is, chuck, Um, It's 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: a story usually encompassing like a moral or ethical uh, lesson, 56 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 1: but fantastical elements. Sure, okay, uh that often had dark 57 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: undertones or overtones. That's actually a pretty great definition, but 58 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: it does raise some questions. It's like, what is the 59 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: difference between a fairy tale and a fable, or a 60 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: fairy tale and a nursery rhyme? You know, what's the 61 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: what is it specifically about fairy tales, and I think 62 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: it's all I think they're all very similar and it's 63 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: all part of folklore. So if you listened, I think 64 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: in February this year, we did one on folklore, so 65 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: it ties in heavily with that. Um. And also we 66 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: didn't I don't know why we just defined fairy tale 67 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: because we never defined what vocal fry was. Apparently I 68 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: feel like we did. Yeah, we got some complaints like 69 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 1: you never said what it was, but we demonstrated it 70 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: over and over. Yeah, and we said it's like a flat, 71 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: creaky way of speaking. Yeah. I don't know. I feel 72 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: like we got the point across. Um. Okay, So fairy 73 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:21,600 Speaker 1: tales specifically, when you think of fairy tales, you you 74 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,440 Speaker 1: might think of Disney, but if you give it a 75 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: little more thought, you're probably going to come up with, um, 76 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 1: the Brothers Krim, Yeah, Matt Damon and um Heath ledger 77 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: R yeah for real, uh yeah, Jacob and Wilhelm Graham 78 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: uh and of course there Well, let's just go ahead 79 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: and say there's a couple of types of fairy tales. 80 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: There's the there's the oral tale. Yeah, the oral tale, 81 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: which is and and the grand Brothers kind of exists 82 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: between the two worlds. But one is the oral world, 83 00:04:52,240 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: which we talked about in folklore, the age old tradition 84 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: of passing stories down um via mouth parts, over and 85 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: over and over, changing them, adding some spice, just like 86 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: telling a joke or a ghost story or something like that, 87 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,040 Speaker 1: right exactly, um. And fairy tales specifically, as far as 88 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: they went with oral tales are typically associated with women 89 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: and typically associated with women, um, undertaking domestic chores. That 90 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:23,160 Speaker 1: that's typically where they were passed down. Um. And so 91 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 1: you've got the oral tale and well, which makes sense. 92 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: Though when I read this, I was like, why are 93 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: there so many fairy tales to have women at the 94 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: loom or spinning stuff, because apparently that's where they were told. 95 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: It makes sense. Yeah, it's like, hey, I'm I'm bored 96 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:41,040 Speaker 1: out of my mind here spending the straw into gold. 97 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: Let me eat some peyote and make up a story 98 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: and you sit there and listen. Um. There's also the 99 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: literary fairy tale, which appears to be there's a handful 100 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 1: of people like Charles Perrault or challer Piero right um. 101 00:05:56,640 --> 00:06:00,440 Speaker 1: And then there's also Hans Christian Anderson very famously, and 102 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,320 Speaker 1: these people are are reputed as having created, you know, 103 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: many fairy tales, and those are called literary fairy like 104 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: they were original authors and made these upright. That's apparently 105 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: a total like misattribution. Like for example, Little Red riding Hood, right, 106 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:23,040 Speaker 1: is a great example that's typically attributed to Charles Parrault 107 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: in the I think the seventeenth or sixteenth century. Charles 108 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: Charles Parralt his ancestor um and Charles Pearl. He was 109 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:37,080 Speaker 1: very famous, as famous as Hans Christian Anderson was um 110 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 1: for for writing down fairy tales and the collections and 111 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: just being delightful, right, and he was great and at 112 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:44,760 Speaker 1: the end of every one of his there was a 113 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,159 Speaker 1: moral to the story. Um. But the people tend to 114 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 1: think that either if he didn't come up with it, 115 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: it was originated right before then. But we found an article, 116 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,200 Speaker 1: um that was from it covered a two thousand nine 117 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: study carried out cultural anthropologists who basically went to some 118 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: biologists and said, hey, do you guys know how you 119 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: trace um species and create the tree of life the 120 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: taxonomy of biology? Can you do that with Little Red 121 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 1: Riding Hood? And they said, man, you are one crazy 122 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: lady or one whacked out hepcat actually may have been 123 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,640 Speaker 1: a man, doctor Jamie Trani. It was a man and 124 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,119 Speaker 1: still is probably. I mean it's only been six years. 125 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: You never know. Um. So Dr Tarrani went to some 126 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,960 Speaker 1: biologists and figured out how to apply the same methods 127 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: to this story Little Red Riding Hood, and he found 128 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: that not only was it not just like a few 129 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:42,680 Speaker 1: years older than Pearl's version, it was as as as 130 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: much as years old. Basically, yeah, they found variations in 131 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: China and Iran and the Middle East. Um, they found 132 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,760 Speaker 1: some unit for the asp stables another person, they said, 133 00:07:56,040 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: they found some of those from sixth century BC. So 134 00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: basically what they're saying is maybe nobody made these up. Well, 135 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: someone at some point did, at least as far as 136 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: Little Red Riding Hood goes. That there's some common ancestor 137 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 1: that predates years before the present, and um it was. 138 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 1: It's a very widespread tale. Um. Not only did Dr 139 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: Tehranni um trace the lineage back to six BC, UM 140 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:27,679 Speaker 1: he found that you could take these tales all around 141 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: the world and lump them into groups, just a few, 142 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: a handful of groups, and that UM places as desparate 143 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: as Iran and Nigeria and Europe all were in the 144 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: same group, whereas like Japan and Burma and China were 145 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: in their own group. But they all kind of bear 146 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: this resemblance where there is a lion or tiger or 147 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: a wolf who was posing as something else in order 148 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: to get the drop on someone else. Yeah, and it's 149 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: sometimes usually a little girl, but I think in Iran 150 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 1: it was a boy. So details change again simple folklore, 151 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,199 Speaker 1: I think, but the structure, the skeleton of the story 152 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: is still very much the same, traceable back years. So 153 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: that that kind of answers the question that I don't 154 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: know if we raised or not yet who owns or who? Who? 155 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: Who came up with fairy tales? But humans did. That's 156 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,040 Speaker 1: the best answer you could possibly come up with. These 157 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: humans came up with it and over the over the years, 158 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: like you said, people in bellyship, people add people subtract um, 159 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: and the Grimm brothers did exactly that same thing. All right, 160 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: let's let's talk a little bit about these these grim bros. 161 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,439 Speaker 1: Um Jacob and Wilhelm did already say that they were 162 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: born in Yakub in Part one, which I appreciated yea 163 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: and wille Helm Jacob or Yakub was born in seventy five, 164 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:54,679 Speaker 1: home just a year later, and they were they were 165 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: kind of rich kids. Their dad was a lawyer and 166 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,199 Speaker 1: they had some money. Uh. Their original house if you 167 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: look at it, it's funny. It looks like I mean, 168 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: it's a total Bavarian like gingerbread house. And Um, they 169 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: grew up in Germany and when they were ten years old, 170 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: their dad died of pneumonia. Uh, and all of a 171 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:13,960 Speaker 1: sudden they didn't have the kind of dough that they 172 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: were used to having. They did was not good and 173 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: in a little scary. I don't get the sense that 174 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: they were like dirt poor or anything, because they still 175 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: had some relatives that had some cash well. Plus also, 176 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: I mean they made it all the way through law 177 00:10:25,480 --> 00:10:28,800 Speaker 1: school in honor of their father, So I mean that 178 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: wasn't free even back then. Yeah. There, I think their 179 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: aunt paid for school. Uh. They graduated each graduate at 180 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: the top of their class, and I guess what would 181 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: be considered high school. And then their auntie paid for 182 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 1: law school. And it wasn't long after law school that 183 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: they got into the UM. It was about to say 184 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: writing that they did right. But the editors for sure, 185 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: collecting and editing and writing business. They were what's called philologists. 186 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: Curating is the word I met um. And they were 187 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 1: also they consider of themselves and were considered linguists as well. 188 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: And by the way, they were Hessians, which means that 189 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 1: they were um from the same place as the headless 190 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: horseman from a sleepy hollow legend. He was a Hessian mercenary. 191 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: That yeah, Um. So anyway, they they came. They graduated 192 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: from law school during this period called German romanticism um, 193 00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 1: which was basically this idea that before years before, in 194 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: the in the midsts of history, the Germanic people were 195 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 1: very interesting. They had a very good grasp on things, 196 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: and a lot of this was passed down through oral 197 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: folk folklore and um. That this stuff was disappearing thanks 198 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: to industrialization. So you get the idea that there's a 199 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: little bit of nervousness at least among the intellectual um 200 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: people of Germany at the time, that this cultural history 201 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: was drying up very quickly, and there was a movement 202 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: to collect this oral knowledge before it disappeared. And that's 203 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: what um, that's what the Grimm brothers were doing when 204 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: they set about collecting these stories, although they weren't very 205 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 1: honest about it at least at first. Yeah, it was, um, 206 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: we know them now is as just simply the grim 207 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: Brothers fairy tales. But the original collection was called um 208 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 1: Nursery and Household Tales or die kenda went house minchen 209 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 1: and german Man. You're German? Is it's coming back? And 210 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: there are eighty six stories originally in the collection. And 211 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 1: by the way, big shout to the article from the 212 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: New Yorker Once Upon a Time A Lord of the 213 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:43,080 Speaker 1: fairy Tale by Joan uh at Casella. Yes, very nice. 214 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: I think that's it. Yeah, she wrote a great article. Um, 215 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: and that's the largely the basis of our podcast. By 216 00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: the way, that's right, so thanks for that. But um, 217 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,080 Speaker 1: eighty six original stories. And like you said, originally they 218 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: in the in the forward, in the introduction they were like, 219 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: this is a this is all German all the time, 220 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: basically word for word. We went around to the peasantry 221 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:10,240 Speaker 1: and collected this um these marks was it marching or marking? 222 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,439 Speaker 1: Uh for what the tales German for tales the marching 223 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:21,439 Speaker 1: or marken house myrchin merchant. So they went around to 224 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: the Vulk the peasantry and collected the merchant from them. Yeah, 225 00:13:26,880 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: it didn't change a word specifically. They said they had 226 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:35,360 Speaker 1: a primary source, a woman named Dorothea VMan, and she 227 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: was a peasant and a village near them. Um. But 228 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 1: it turns out and that all of this again was folklore, 229 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:43,319 Speaker 1: which I can't fault them too much because that was 230 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: their business. No, but they jumped it up to be 231 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 1: a little more folks tho than it was. Well, they 232 00:13:47,480 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: both basically lied in there in the introduction in their 233 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 1: first um, the first edition, which was published in two 234 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 1: volumes in eighteen twelve and eighteen fifteen. Right, and so 235 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: this nursery and household tales became known as rooms fairy tales. 236 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 1: And at first it was definitely um a much more 237 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 1: of an intellectual pursuit. There are lots of footnotes. They 238 00:14:09,280 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: tried to make it seem like they were just collecting 239 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: and preserving this German folk knowledge and all that. But 240 00:14:15,280 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: it turns out that they they did have that primary 241 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: source and that woman, but she was pretty far from 242 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: a peasant. Apparently she was the wife of a tailor, 243 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: which was part of the merchant class, not the peasant class, 244 00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: and she was just one source. They relied on friends 245 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: and family and relatives and other collections of fairy folk 246 00:14:32,480 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: folk tales and fairy tales that they just lifted. Um. 247 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 1: And we're not suggesting there were thieves. This was a 248 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: common thing to do. It was. But again they bald 249 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: faced ly lied in there in the in the introduction 250 00:14:43,040 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 1: in preface, which is funny, but it's um. Yeah, they were. 251 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: They were they were trying to adopt an aura for 252 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: their project that they wanted it to have that it 253 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: didn't necessarily have. Well, yeah, and I don't think we 254 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: mentioned the source wasn't even a German descent. She was 255 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: a French. You cannot. Yeah, So they even kind of 256 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: trump that up right, which means that a lot of 257 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: the stuff that, like Red Riding cap Um, is a 258 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: rip off of Charles Perrault's Little Red Riding Hood or 259 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: an adaptation whatever you want to call it. But again, 260 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 1: this is in the midst of this German romanticism, where 261 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: German culture was trying to be promoted and um uh, 262 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: celebrated and preserved. Um. So all of this stuff was 263 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: very much painted as German, even though not necessarily any 264 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: of it was German. In origin, but it was far 265 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: more ancient than even the French that they were lifting 266 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: it from. That's right. Um, all right, here, let's take 267 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:41,840 Speaker 1: a little break and let's come back and let's talk 268 00:15:41,920 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: a little bit more about these grand brothers and we're 269 00:16:07,240 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 1: back and Chuck. Before we get back to it, I 270 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,080 Speaker 1: want to shout out to guest producer Noel, who is 271 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 1: responsible for the fairy tale themed jingle that this episode 272 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 1: in the first one too. Yeah, we asked and he 273 00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: was like, too easy, I'll do with my eyes closed 274 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: while I'm asleep. He did with an alligator chasing me. 275 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: That's right, So thanks Noel. It's awesome. All right. These 276 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 1: are grand brothers. Uh. They were. They were tight. They 277 00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: were really really close with each other. They were they 278 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: worked really close with each other. They were buddies from 279 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: what I can tell. Uh, And apparently for most of 280 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: their career they worked at desks facing each other. That 281 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: classic writing partner than we are now, Yes, even though 282 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 1: it's one desk, right and we only sit here to record. Yeah, 283 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: I guess there is some similarity here there. Sure we're 284 00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: making magic and they were too. I think that's the similarity, right, Sure, 285 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 1: yakop was it was a difficult introvert in Willehelm was 286 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: pretty laid back. Wilhelm would eventually get married because he 287 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 1: was more outgoing and had four kids, whereas Yakop stayed 288 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: a bachelor his whole life. Um, and they were tight. 289 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: They worked as librarians together for a lot of their career. Uh. 290 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 1: And like you said, they were uh philologists. It is 291 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: um like they worked on most things, I think eight 292 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: things together. Yakop wrote twenty one books on his own, 293 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: bill Holm fourteen. And they were I mean, one of 294 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: them wrote a book on grammar. One of them wrote 295 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,239 Speaker 1: like a history book. They were smart dude. They were 296 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:40,119 Speaker 1: smart dudes. Um. But their their life's work, aside from 297 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: the fairy tales, ended up being they seemed to be 298 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: sort of obsessed with making a German dictionary complete, like 299 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,919 Speaker 1: writing a dictionary. Yeah, they've made it to f I 300 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 1: believe before they died. Yeah, and then some some other 301 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: people came along and said we're going to carry on 302 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: this work and finish and it was completed. But it 303 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: was a massive project. Yeah, I mean, like for decades 304 00:18:01,480 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: they worked up just to get through f right and 305 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:08,560 Speaker 1: I think, um who died first, I believe Wilhelm, the 306 00:18:08,640 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: younger one, died first and Jacob carried the dictionary on 307 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: for four more years even after his death. But um 308 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: Yacob said, Okay, I'm done with the fairy Tales. I'm 309 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,479 Speaker 1: gonna move on to other stuff. And Wilhelm actually edited 310 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,119 Speaker 1: that thing for forty five years. It went through seven 311 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: editions of the Fairytale Thing, Yes, the Nursery and Household Tales, 312 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: the Grim fairy Tales, Scary it went, I'm sorry, I switched. 313 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: Um it went from uh, it went from yeah, I 314 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,960 Speaker 1: guess eighteen twelve to yeah. Eighteen fifty seven was when 315 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 1: he released the last edition, and they were very different 316 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:47,880 Speaker 1: books by the time the first edition in the last 317 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: edition came out, and even between the first and second editions, 318 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:55,240 Speaker 1: they were tremendously different books. Because Um, the Grimm brothers 319 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,199 Speaker 1: decided that their book wasn't selling like they thought it 320 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: would e G. Hot k Yeah, if you listen to 321 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,560 Speaker 1: the previous episode, it was originally much darker and aimed 322 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: at adults and was poorly reviewed and didn't sell well. Right, 323 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,320 Speaker 1: and for grammarians listening by e G. I'm an example 324 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: not that is I would have said I E had 325 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 1: I meant that. But um, they they decided that if 326 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,479 Speaker 1: they could just kind of alter their book just a 327 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 1: tiny bit, it would sell a lot better. So they 328 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,920 Speaker 1: went through and took out all the sex, basically. Yeah, 329 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: and tradition of modern Americans take out the sex, pump 330 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,200 Speaker 1: up the violence, right, But these are like early nineteenth 331 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 1: century Germans doing this, and I guess it's that that 332 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: same thing. Um, And here, Chuck, I have a question, 333 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: and it's a rhetorical question, but so you know how 334 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 1: nursery rhymes are just fairy tales are just weird. They're 335 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 1: very weird. There's a lot of random things that just 336 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,399 Speaker 1: seem really out of talking eggs that break and right, 337 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: but also like really horrific violence for children's story and 338 00:20:01,119 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: all that. Yeah, I think that this is the point 339 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 1: where that weirdness sets in because they went through and 340 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 1: they took the same tales and they altered them just 341 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: slightly for children. But it went from these are adults 342 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,880 Speaker 1: or these are stories for adults meant to be told 343 00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:21,520 Speaker 1: from one adults to another, not for kids, to let's 344 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: adapt these for kids. And um, in that adaptation, that 345 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: weirdness set in that's still there today. Yeah, I think 346 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: that's when it happened. That wasn't even a rhetorical question. 347 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: That was just a statement, thank you you're putting it 348 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: out there. Had I ended an up speak, though, I 349 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: could have made the case that it was rhetorical. Uh So, 350 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: in this and then the very next edition out of 351 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: the seven, they went ahead and after the bad sales 352 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 1: and stuff, and like I said, they sanitized it and 353 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 1: geared it too kids, but they also dropped that stuff 354 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: from the intro. All the lies in the intro were like, 355 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 1: I guess, why why do we even do that? Yeah? 356 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: You know, of course, sorry everybody. That was just dumb 357 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: on our parts. It was Wilhelm yaco Is likes like 358 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: no yucom and it just goes back and forth for 359 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: like eight pages. Uh So, in the previous podcast we 360 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: mentioned Rupunzel. How that was, um, how Rapunzel. Basically the 361 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: lady in question got pregnant after having sex. Yeah, so 362 00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: they would they would, uh, they would whitewash that kind 363 00:21:26,640 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 1: of stuff. They would sanitize the sexier parts. Right, They 364 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: just took out the fact that she got pregnant and 365 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: didn't mention what the prince and she were doing, right, 366 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:36,720 Speaker 1: They just left it up to the parents to imagine 367 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: and the kids to just be dummies and not know 368 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: what they were talking about. Right, But like we said 369 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: to the violent stayed um and in some cases even 370 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:49,640 Speaker 1: got worse, like when Um Hansel and Well, the violence 371 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: got worse, but they also did sanitize it a little bit, 372 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: just to make it a little more palatable, like in 373 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: Hansel and gretel Uh. In the previous show, we mentioned 374 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: that Um it was it was a stepmother, an evil stepmother, 375 00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: which we'll we'll talk about later as a recurring motif 376 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: UM that took the children out in the woods to 377 00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: abandon them, and the original version it was both a 378 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: real mother and a real father, And they were like, 379 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,720 Speaker 1: all right, you know that's really bad, so let's at 380 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 1: least make it an evil stepmother that the dad tries 381 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 1: to battle and say no, don't do this, right, but 382 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 1: eventually gives into, gives into and the kids are still 383 00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 1: taking out in the woods to die, but it's just 384 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,439 Speaker 1: a little bit more like, Okay, well it's not the 385 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: real parents because that's just horrific. So the violence is 386 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: still there, but they've taken away a little bit of 387 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: the psychological terror by replacing the mother slightly with a stepmother. UM, 388 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: and yeah, I think that that's a I guess that 389 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 1: is something of a cleansing process as far as editing goes. 390 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 1: But the violence is still in there, and it seems 391 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,359 Speaker 1: very weird, especially today when you look back at this 392 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,760 Speaker 1: and think like they were reading this to kids. But 393 00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: there's a very smart woman named A s byatt who's 394 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: children's off herself but also an expert on children's books, 395 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:08,199 Speaker 1: and she wrote the introduction to a UM collection I 396 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,640 Speaker 1: think actually the an addition of the Grimm's Fairy Tales 397 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: by Maria Tatar, who's a basically the foremost expert on 398 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 1: fairy tales working today. Yeah, that's Zip's not around anymore. 399 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: He's retired because that guy, He's still available for comment 400 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: for sure, but Tatar seems to be the She's taken 401 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: up the mantle from him and uh in this edition. 402 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 1: A s By writes in the introduction of it that, yes, 403 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: this violence seems weird, but if you step back and 404 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: think of it as uh seventeenth and eighteenth century Tom 405 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 1: and Jerry cartoons, it becomes way more understandable and at 406 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: the same time way more acceptable as well. Like, think 407 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: about all the horrible things that Jerry did to Tom, 408 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,080 Speaker 1: and what you're looking at is the same exact stuff 409 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,400 Speaker 1: in a fairy tale, So it's not quite as odd 410 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 1: as you would think. Yeah, And as far as the 411 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:07,720 Speaker 1: historical motif or the motif of the evil step mom, 412 00:24:07,760 --> 00:24:10,919 Speaker 1: there's a historical realism there that um, someone else pointed 413 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: out that at the time, you know, women died in 414 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:19,320 Speaker 1: childbirth a lot, and so oftentimes there was a widow 415 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:23,400 Speaker 1: or a widower left with kids that they would bring 416 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 1: in a stepmother and resources could be scared. So you'll 417 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: see this recurring motif over and over, this evil stepmother 418 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 1: who basically is competing for both the affections and food 419 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,119 Speaker 1: of their little children that they inherited that they don't like. 420 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: So that's why you see it pop up over and 421 00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,640 Speaker 1: over and over, because that's kind of what happens sometimes. Yeah, 422 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 1: And that's the sociohistorical interpretation of fairy tales, which is 423 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: um basically takes fairy tales largely on their face. I mean, like, 424 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 1: if you have a talking egg or something like that, 425 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: you're not going to be like well, obviously in the 426 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,520 Speaker 1: twelfth century, eggs talked, but there were a lot of 427 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: there's a lot of context in background that um that 428 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,639 Speaker 1: I think people imbue with a lot more fancifulness than 429 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: need be. For example, like the the presence of wicked 430 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: step mothers throughout or in the case of Hansel and 431 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:17,400 Speaker 1: gretel um a child abandonment like if you look back 432 00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,440 Speaker 1: at the fourteenth century, during famines and plagues, I think 433 00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:23,240 Speaker 1: it was the Black Death in particularly just leveled Europe. 434 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,919 Speaker 1: A lot of people abandoned their children because they just 435 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: couldn't feed them any longer. So this wasn't like so 436 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: outlandish that it only belongs in fairy tale, and it 437 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: might have been like a fairly approachable theme that people 438 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 1: talked about to kind of hash out the feelings of 439 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:44,960 Speaker 1: collective societal guilt at the fact that child abandonment was rampant. 440 00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: You know, it's I think the sociohistorical interpretation is probably 441 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:52,400 Speaker 1: my favorite. Can we talked about the juniper tree real quick? 442 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:57,639 Speaker 1: I love this one. So, like we said, in fairy tales, 443 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:03,200 Speaker 1: there's there's incests, there's cannibalism, there's murder, there's torture, there's 444 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: buried alive. There are all kinds of things that happen 445 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 1: in the junifer tree. Maybe well, I don't know, maybe 446 00:26:09,040 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: the worst one of them all. So in this case, 447 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: we have an evil stepmother, of course, who hates her stepchild, 448 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:17,119 Speaker 1: who was a boy. So she comes home and says, hey, 449 00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,160 Speaker 1: you want an apple, and the boy says, sure, let 450 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: me lean in there and get one, and she it's 451 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 1: a trunk, and she slams the trunk down and cuts 452 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: his head off. And that's just the beginning. So she's like, 453 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,920 Speaker 1: all right, probably not a wise move. Let me put 454 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 1: the kid in a chair. Let me stick this head 455 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: back on his neck and wrap a scarf around it, 456 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 1: and just here, open his eyes here, and put a 457 00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,040 Speaker 1: little smile on his face. And then her real daughter 458 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,479 Speaker 1: comes in, not a stepdaughter, her favorite, real daughter. And 459 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:51,879 Speaker 1: it's like, he looks all weird. Why is he just 460 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: sitting there like adult? She says, I don't know, go 461 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: slap him and and bring him around a bit. Boxes 462 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: the ear, I think, is what she So she boxes 463 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: his ear. His head falls off. And by the way, 464 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: the little girl, which makes it even more horrific what 465 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: you're about to say, loved the little boy though it 466 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: was a stepbrother, even though in the mom's eyes they 467 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: were rivals. For these scarce resources. A little girl loves 468 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:15,679 Speaker 1: a little boy, so go ahead. So she knocks his 469 00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: head off, and the mom's like, you knocked your brother's 470 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,200 Speaker 1: head off, But you know what, We're gonna just keep 471 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: this quiet between us and you won't get in any trouble. 472 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: Let's just cook him into a stew and feed him 473 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,439 Speaker 1: to your father or step And the little girls like 474 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 1: beside herself with like guilt and shame and horror at 475 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: the fact that she or the thought that she killed 476 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,200 Speaker 1: her beloved stepbrother, but she goes along with it because 477 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: this is what her mom is saying. And the father 478 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: comes home and he eats the stew and actually it's 479 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: black pudding. Yeah, I'm not sure what that is. But um, 480 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: the father eats it and he's like this is all 481 00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: for men, a little misogyny and greed on the end, 482 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: because he's like, no one else in this family is 483 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: going to eat this, yeah but me. It's pretty nuts. 484 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: And in the end, the little the little girl takes 485 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: the boy's bones and buries him by the juniper tree, 486 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: and he's reborn as a bird and ends up killing 487 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:12,280 Speaker 1: the wicked stepmother um, and then comes back to life 488 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: as the boy so it all works out in the 489 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 1: end for the boy. But it's pretty nuts as far 490 00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,760 Speaker 1: as like these stories go, Like that has it all? 491 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: Do you want to talk about how children played butcher 492 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,840 Speaker 1: with each other? Yes, this one's very short, and we 493 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: should point out many of these are very short, like 494 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: Little Red Riding Hood was only four pages long. I 495 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: think Rapunzel was only two or three. But that also, 496 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: in and of itself, was the work of the Grim brothers. 497 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 1: They would embellish this stuff tremendously and often double it 498 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: and double it from a few paragraphs to a couple 499 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: of pages. So still short. And by the way, if 500 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: you want to read a really neat analysis of the 501 00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: juniper tree, read Ernest Parkins analysis on word words and edgeways. Yeah, yeah, 502 00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. He finds at out of neat symbolism 503 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: in it. All right, here's how children played butcher with 504 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: each other. It's a great title. A man once slaughtered 505 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 1: a pig while his children were looking on. When they 506 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: started playing in the afternoon, one child said to the other, 507 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: you beat the little pig, and I'll be the butcher. 508 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: Whereupon he took an open blade and thrust it into 509 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,320 Speaker 1: his brother's neck. Their mother, who was upstairs in a 510 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: room bathing the youngest child in a tub, heard the 511 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: cries of her other child, quickly ran downstairs, and when 512 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: she saw what had happened, drew the knife out of 513 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: the child's neck and in a rage, thrust it into 514 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: the heart of the child who had been the butcher. 515 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: Then she rushed back to the house to see what 516 00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: her other child was doing in the tub, but in 517 00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,720 Speaker 1: the meantime it had drowned in the bath. The woman 518 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 1: was so horrified that she fell into a state of 519 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 1: utter despair, refused to be consoled by the servants, and 520 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,440 Speaker 1: hanged herself. When her husband returned home from the fields 521 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: and saw this, he was so distraught that he died 522 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 1: shortly thereafter the end. That's like the episode of Dragnet 523 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 1: where they have a pop party and the parents forget 524 00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 1: their child is in the bath and it drowned. Was 525 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: that on Dragnet? Wow? So you know, of course I'm laughing, 526 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 1: because I mean, you can't take that seriously, right if 527 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: you watch Dragnet you can well no, I mean that 528 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: story it's just so over the top and weird and 529 00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 1: violent and dark and stuff just happens like again, there's 530 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 1: almost no psychology to these things. People just do stuff 531 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:22,320 Speaker 1: well supposedly. Uh. I think Wilhelm Grim said specifically about 532 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,320 Speaker 1: that one, like No, the clear lesson here is it's like, 533 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: don't play with knives and things, which is and that's 534 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: a good point, and I don't know if we've even 535 00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:34,240 Speaker 1: said that, Like the the predominant theory for why these 536 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: things even exist is um, as far as being taught 537 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: to children goes, they are lessons their tails and how 538 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 1: to grow up, how to avoid strangers, stay away from knives, 539 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 1: stay away from I guess, which is like don't eat 540 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: houses made of gingerbread, just good life lessons that kind 541 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: of stuff. They're sexual predators out there, yeah, which we'll 542 00:30:54,960 --> 00:31:15,960 Speaker 1: talk about, but let's take another break. You're ready for it, yes, okay, 543 00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:24,080 Speaker 1: So Chuck you um, you said that there are sexual 544 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: predators out there and they're little red riding hood in particular, 545 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:29,120 Speaker 1: Like if you read it, especially if you read the 546 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: Grim version and not the Charles Barrault version, it's um 547 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: like everything comes out great in the end, she saved. Um, 548 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,239 Speaker 1: you can read between the lines a little bit and 549 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: that's the key. Though, Like these these fairy tales even 550 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: after they became sanitized through seven editions, even after they 551 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:51,240 Speaker 1: became disneyfied um, there's still this underlying thread, the theme, 552 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 1: the central theme, the message look out for sexual predators, 553 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 1: don't cut your brother's head off with a knife like that. 554 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: They can't be expunge and the story still remain the same. 555 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 1: It's it's so woven into the fabric of them, and 556 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that makes them interesting. 557 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,880 Speaker 1: But alternately, something else I ran across, and I think 558 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 1: that a s buy it Um article was the idea 559 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,719 Speaker 1: that they don't have any designs on you. They're not 560 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: trying to teach you a lesson necessarily in and of themselves. 561 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 1: They just are what they are. Maybe the person telling 562 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: you that fairy tale wants you to learn that lesson. 563 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 1: The fairy tale in and of itself couldn't care less 564 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: whether you you learned that lesson or not. It's just 565 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: here's a snapshot of what happened in twelve seventeen to 566 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: this little boy who played with knives with his brother. 567 00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 1: Will learn it or don't, we don't care. Yeah, but 568 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 1: that's uh. What was Zip's first name? Jack? Jack? Zip's 569 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: he was may still be here he said, he's retired now, Yeah, 570 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: he's He worked at the University of Minnesota. Is a 571 00:32:53,960 --> 00:33:00,239 Speaker 1: comparative literature professor and German professor go Golden Gophers. Yeah, 572 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: uh uh. And he for many many years was the 573 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 1: pre eminent fairy tale dude. He was where you would go. 574 00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 1: He turns up all over the place in his research. 575 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,560 Speaker 1: But he said, though, um that there usually is like 576 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: a come upance, Like he says, whoever is a tyrant 577 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: at which an evil brother or mother who wants her 578 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: own daughter dead, they will always be punished. There will 579 00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: always be justice. And usually the characters that are of 580 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,640 Speaker 1: humble origins go on to have like great success, like 581 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 1: the you know, the uh, poor maiden marries the prince 582 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: in the end in most cases it's true, but not always. 583 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: Or the king who wants to have an incestuous relationship 584 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: with his daughter ends up getting killed or something like that. Yeah. 585 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:46,560 Speaker 1: In that case, I believe what was his wife was 586 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: dying and he said, I will only remarry if I 587 00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,480 Speaker 1: can find someone as beautiful as you, and turns out 588 00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,680 Speaker 1: that's my daughter. What was that one called, like many 589 00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: or something like it was called the creep King. Yeah, 590 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 1: but that's a recurring theme. Actually it's a very ancient one. 591 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: It falls under the Cinderella story um which apparently so 592 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: there's a I don't know if we mentioned it or not, 593 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 1: but there's a folklore cataloging device like cataloging convention. And 594 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,360 Speaker 1: I think Cinderella stories, which is the persecuted heroin is 595 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 1: uh number five ten A yeah, for real, it's the 596 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: Arne Thompson Uther classification five ten A persecuted heroin Cinderella 597 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: stories the Uther pen dragon, and that's another. Cinderella is 598 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: another one, like there was one woman in particular who 599 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: collected three eighty five different versions of the Cinderella story 600 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 1: from around the world, and I think they've identified as 601 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: many as fifteen. So Cinderella is another very very ancient 602 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: one as well. And the one that you recounted about 603 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:50,520 Speaker 1: the king you wants to Mary's daughter, that particular one 604 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: from Greece. Yeah, I think that was called all Kinds 605 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: of Fur. It's all hyphenated, like that's her name or something. 606 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: I think it's um. So we're talking talk about like 607 00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: sanitizing it and um Joan a Casella comes to the 608 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 1: Grimm's defense like saying you can't really fault these guys 609 00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: for for changing this stuff, because again, it doesn't really 610 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: belong to anybody. They belong to the ages, and the 611 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 1: Grimms just put their stamp on it. Um. And then also, 612 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: you know, uh, if you if you just take an 613 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,840 Speaker 1: oral tradition and faithfully write it down, it's going to 614 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:29,360 Speaker 1: be virtually unreadable. So they definitely stylized that. They added 615 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:31,360 Speaker 1: some more pros, and they made it a lot more memorable, 616 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,480 Speaker 1: and it became a beloved book. It's a Unesco book 617 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,399 Speaker 1: Memory of the World, I think collection, so like it's 618 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,399 Speaker 1: a it's a very well beloved book. But some people say, 619 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: you know, if why should the Grimms be the only 620 00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,680 Speaker 1: ones to be able to change fairy tales? Why why 621 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: does it have to end with them? Maybe it's time 622 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: to rewrite them some Well, isn't that what uh tartar 623 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:59,640 Speaker 1: zips that's his position. No, no no, no, but I thought 624 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: the one in who uh name? What isn't that what 625 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: she's done? Didn't she release a new version? In two 626 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: thousand five, she released an annotated version, but she didn't 627 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: rewrite them. What SIPs is saying is like, here's the 628 00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: basic story, go rewrite it as your own and um, 629 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:19,839 Speaker 1: there's been some feminist collections that that are rewritten stories. Yeah, 630 00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,200 Speaker 1: like why is every girl defenseless and needs a man 631 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: to rescue her from poverty or danger? Right, And that's 632 00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,840 Speaker 1: a feminist interpretation of a lot of um, the fairy tales, 633 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,919 Speaker 1: some people say, if you look a little further, like, yes, 634 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: all the ones that Disney picked and all the most 635 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,799 Speaker 1: popular ones are very much patriarch patriarchally slanted to where 636 00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: it is a damvel in distress as a prince that 637 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:44,680 Speaker 1: has to come help her and she's helpless until he 638 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,399 Speaker 1: comes along and then whatever. Um, But if you look 639 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: a little further, there are some very there are other 640 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:55,400 Speaker 1: ones where they're resourceful heroines. And think of Hansel and Gretel. 641 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,720 Speaker 1: Gretel tricks the witch and kills her all by herself 642 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: without the help of Hansel, who's being fattened up by himself. Right, Yeah, 643 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,919 Speaker 1: And I'm sure Disney, Walt Disney himself was just like, man, 644 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,439 Speaker 1: they love this stuff, like of course I'm gonna they're 645 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 1: eating it up. Yeah, but there, but there. You can 646 00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 1: also look at Hollywood two is a means of taking 647 00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:20,320 Speaker 1: these classic fairy tales and rewriting the Grim versions like, Um, 648 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: there's a huge I don't want to call it a movement, 649 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,759 Speaker 1: but there's there's like a trend, I guess, trend to 650 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: to taking these things that were disneyfied versions of the 651 00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,839 Speaker 1: stories and restoring them back even even to their pre 652 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,879 Speaker 1: grim darker roots, just making them dark again roots there 653 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,040 Speaker 1: grimmar pre grim roots. Yeah. Um, have you ever seen 654 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: Freeway with Reese Witherspoon? Oh? Yeah, that was a little 655 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: red writing a little red riding hood. And if you're 656 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: a feminist, I guarantee you appreciate that version a little 657 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,440 Speaker 1: Red riding Hood because she takes no guff and comes 658 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,600 Speaker 1: out on top and at no points for yeah, and 659 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: Brooks shields as his wife, and she like it's crazy. 660 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: It's a neat, neat movie. But that's a good example 661 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: of a rewriting of a classic fairy tale. Like, no, 662 00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to end with the Grims totally. Uh. 663 00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: In The Company of Wolves, wasn't that a that was 664 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,759 Speaker 1: a rewrite of or redo of a little writing her 665 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:18,640 Speaker 1: two a little more of a horror though, right? I 666 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: think so? I didn't see it. I didn't either. I 667 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: think that was Neil Jordan's right, crying game, Yeah, like 668 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:28,160 Speaker 1: one of his early movies. So um, we have to 669 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,680 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the Nazis here, because the 670 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,799 Speaker 1: Nazis were big on co opting things for their own purposes. Uh. 671 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,800 Speaker 1: And one of the things that co opted were Grim's 672 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,799 Speaker 1: fairy tales. And since World War Two there's been a 673 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: big I don't know about big again, maybe it was 674 00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: such a trend, but there were folks who said that, 675 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,000 Speaker 1: you know, when you look at these, they're talking about 676 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: German nationalism and discipline and violence and obedient and order 677 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:58,439 Speaker 1: and obedience. And I think the grand brothers were like, yeah, 678 00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:02,279 Speaker 1: it's totally nationalism. We were all about Germany. But but 679 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 1: we died like decades before Hitler was even born. Yeah, Like, 680 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: I don't think they would have appreciated that it was 681 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 1: co opted by the Nazis, and Hitler saying like, put 682 00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 1: these in schools, this is awesome, Like read this stuff, 683 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: put them in boy scout rooms everywhere, that's funny. So um, 684 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: the Allies came in and occupied Germany and one of 685 00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: the things they said was like, you guys can't teach 686 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:25,239 Speaker 1: this Grim book anymore. And bandit and a lot of 687 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,359 Speaker 1: towns around Germany became very political because it was very 688 00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: much associated with the Third Reich. And one of the 689 00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:32,680 Speaker 1: reasons why is because the Third Reich said, go teach 690 00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 1: this to young German kids, to make sure that they 691 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,279 Speaker 1: know they're German and that they will triumph over the 692 00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,799 Speaker 1: Allied Wolf because they're all little red riding hood that's right, 693 00:39:41,960 --> 00:39:46,759 Speaker 1: little Nazi kids, that's right. So um, again, people make 694 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,239 Speaker 1: the case like, you can't really hang that on the 695 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 1: Grim brothers. They didn't foresee Nazism and this this German 696 00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: nationalism in and of itself isn't necessarily inherently evil, and 697 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: if you put it in the context of German romanticism, 698 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:05,000 Speaker 1: most countries in Europe were undergoing nationalist fever, you know. 699 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: So um. There was some anti semitism though, and some 700 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,399 Speaker 1: of the tales, yeah, and that can't be gotten around either. Yeah. 701 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: One was called The Jew and the Brambles, where the 702 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:18,279 Speaker 1: protagonists torments a Jewish person by dancing, making him dance 703 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:22,000 Speaker 1: on the thicket of thorns, uh, calls him a dirty dog. 704 00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: And then there's I mean, there's various I think said 705 00:40:26,320 --> 00:40:30,760 Speaker 1: three basically of the two hundred tales had Jewish characters, 706 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: and they were never like favorable. Yeah, the other two 707 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 1: um referenced the Jewish stereotype of being stingy with money 708 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: or something like that. Yeah, the good bargain. And a 709 00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:41,760 Speaker 1: lot of people are like, well, let's just expunge those 710 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,120 Speaker 1: two um, and some people have from their collections. I 711 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,520 Speaker 1: think that's the other thing too, is you can if 712 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: the Grim's kind of set a precedent for you can 713 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,120 Speaker 1: take these tales and cleanse them if you want, or 714 00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,680 Speaker 1: do whatever you want to them, like there they belong 715 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: to the ages. Well, and that's then comes in the 716 00:41:01,920 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: people who posit whether or not it's that's good for 717 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,640 Speaker 1: Should we sanitize that? Should we not? Uh? W h Alden, 718 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: I love this. He described the people who sanitize him 719 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 1: as the Society for the Scientific Diet, the Association of 720 00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: Positive Parents, positivist parents, the League for the Promotion of 721 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: Worthwhile Leisure, or the cooperative Camp of Prudent Progressives. Man. 722 00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:27,279 Speaker 1: That is so w ah Todden. He couldn't just leave 723 00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,400 Speaker 1: it at one description. H So he clearly wasn't in 724 00:41:30,440 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: favor of it. Some people think, uh it's good for us. 725 00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: Um A man name uh Bruno Bettelheim in a name 726 00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: Bruno Bedelheim. Yeah, totally is it sounds like a bond 727 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:47,000 Speaker 1: villain or something. A book called The Uses of Enchantment, 728 00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: and he was very Freudian in nature that he basically 729 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:55,040 Speaker 1: says that we all, all these kids have these unconscious 730 00:41:55,080 --> 00:42:00,360 Speaker 1: desires and these books help, uh what like these repressed 731 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: desires come out, help them deal with them. Yeah. Well 732 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: it helps children, yeah, deal with their repressed desires. Like 733 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: the example of the UM. So we talked about the 734 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: sociohistorical interpretation of the presence of wicked stepmothers. Right, there 735 00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: are lots of stepmothers and they were competing for resources 736 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: bet Ohaim and the Freudians say, well, no, the stepmothers 737 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: are there because UM children love their mother, but they 738 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 1: also hate their mother, and this gives them a way 739 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: to work through the complex. Yeah, that complex um combination 740 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: of emotions where they can hate the wicked stepmother, but 741 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,560 Speaker 1: they can also love the biological mother who's absent or 742 00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,760 Speaker 1: appears early on and then dies, but who is always 743 00:42:38,840 --> 00:42:42,319 Speaker 1: very loving and kind. Right, so they can work that out. 744 00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:44,319 Speaker 1: That's a great example of it. Yeah, and then you 745 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 1: have Zips, who Jack Zip says, you know what it 746 00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:52,040 Speaker 1: really is is, uh, children see the fairy tale as 747 00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,200 Speaker 1: like a counterworld of reflection of their own world, and 748 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,279 Speaker 1: it allows them to, you know, consider what's going on 749 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:00,919 Speaker 1: in that world and then take steps in their own 750 00:43:00,960 --> 00:43:04,080 Speaker 1: world to reform it and not do those things right. 751 00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: And specifically it teaches children to identify tyrants and people 752 00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 1: who are power mad, and people who hoard money or 753 00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: harm other people, because those people almost invariably come to 754 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: a terrible end in those things. And then fairy tales, right, 755 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: So you've got all these different interpretations Freudian Carl Young 756 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: got into it um, sociohistorical feminist interpretation, Jack Zipe's own 757 00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:35,440 Speaker 1: personal leftist interpretation, right um, and all of them, although 758 00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,680 Speaker 1: they compete here there none of them are wrong and 759 00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:41,239 Speaker 1: none of them are right. And then again, it's the 760 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: beauty of fairy tales. It's like a blank white piece 761 00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: of ply would that we project our own thoughts and 762 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 1: fears and hopes and ideas onto culture by culture, age 763 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,720 Speaker 1: by age. And Tatar and her collection did a pretty 764 00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: smart thing. I think she actually collected some of the 765 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,800 Speaker 1: more disturbing one in the back of the book under 766 00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 1: the title Tales for Adults. Basically read these first on 767 00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 1: your own. See if you want to read them to 768 00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 1: your kid, don't frontload it with the juniper tree. Right. 769 00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: And actually, Joan Accella says that you should take an 770 00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: exact and if and just cut the juniper tree out 771 00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,680 Speaker 1: of your said that. I thought that was pretty funny. Yeah, 772 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know if your kids got a 773 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,520 Speaker 1: strong fortitude. It's up to the parents. But it wasn't 774 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:28,360 Speaker 1: always up to the parents. There was a big movement 775 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:34,840 Speaker 1: in the mid twentieth century for um realism among children's books. Yeah, 776 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:39,280 Speaker 1: and and the Grimms were first on the chopping block there. Instead, 777 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,960 Speaker 1: it was replaced by like Judy Goes to the Firehouses. 778 00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,880 Speaker 1: Zachcella says, I totally like think about it. It's like 779 00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,880 Speaker 1: a total fifties children's book, like see Dick and Jane Run. 780 00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,200 Speaker 1: You know. Um and it was I guess Maurice Syndec 781 00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,320 Speaker 1: with Where the Wild Things Are? Who? Who said I 782 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,040 Speaker 1: we were not doing that anymore. He brought the cool 783 00:44:57,040 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: back to children's books. He definitely did. Yeah, I have it, 784 00:45:00,680 --> 00:45:04,400 Speaker 1: read many children's books lately, But I think there's a 785 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,359 Speaker 1: lot of you read Daddy Sat on a duck, right, Yeah, 786 00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:09,680 Speaker 1: I did read that. Lots of far jokes in that one. Yeah, 787 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,200 Speaker 1: that was written by one of our listeners. Um, highly 788 00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,839 Speaker 1: recommended it is. It's very good. But I think these 789 00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 1: days there's a mix of things going on, realism, fanciful 790 00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,279 Speaker 1: stuff stories and now uh well this is more of 791 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:25,360 Speaker 1: a young adult novel. But Colum Alloy of the December 792 00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: sort of three part children's novels, like big, big books 793 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:34,880 Speaker 1: about this fantastical world in Oregon, this forest in Oregon 794 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,520 Speaker 1: where I can't I bought them all. I can't wait 795 00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,560 Speaker 1: to read him. It's cool man, Yeah, I think he's 796 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,759 Speaker 1: he's that's more the tradition of the like lion which 797 00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 1: in the wardrobe And you said that, I wanted to say, 798 00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:50,880 Speaker 1: Avon is not the name Narnia Narnia. Um, yeah, I 799 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:53,200 Speaker 1: have no idea where children's books are these days either. 800 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:57,040 Speaker 1: I wonder though, what what it reflects about society at large, 801 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,080 Speaker 1: whatever phase children's books are, whether it's realism or fancifulness, 802 00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: you know, yeah, like are we like when you're in 803 00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: an economic downturn? Is realism or fantasy the one that 804 00:46:08,640 --> 00:46:11,640 Speaker 1: steps in? Yeah, I would guess fantasy because people want 805 00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: to escapism. Then I was way into that stuff. I 806 00:46:14,239 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: wasn't into like Hobbit and Lord of the Rings and 807 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:21,960 Speaker 1: stuff like that. But I love Maurice Sendak really and 808 00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:23,759 Speaker 1: stuff that was really kind of out there. I love 809 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,160 Speaker 1: Dr Seuss. I found out that it's um not every 810 00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: boy read Ramona Quimpy books. I thought it was Nix 811 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,359 Speaker 1: apparently not. Yeah. I read uh some Judy Bloom Yeah, 812 00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: of course. Um and I did read the first couple 813 00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:44,360 Speaker 1: of the The Chronic What Cools of Narnia? Did you 814 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 1: ever see that skit? No, it's one of the setting 815 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,359 Speaker 1: live shorts they were doing, Chris Parnell and Sandberg. We're 816 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,440 Speaker 1: doing a rap the Chronic What Cools of Narnia. I 817 00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,839 Speaker 1: didn't see that. It's like a very weird, misplaced What 818 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: did you see Mr Shows coming back on Netflix? Yeah? 819 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,480 Speaker 1: Well close as we're gonna get the Mr Show. I 820 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:04,359 Speaker 1: don't think they can call it Mr Show. No, they're 821 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,360 Speaker 1: calling it uh with like w slash Bob and David. 822 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 1: I can't wait. Man. I saw a couple of clips 823 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,880 Speaker 1: and it looks like, Yeah, it looks like it's going 824 00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:14,320 Speaker 1: to be as good as it ever was. I'm pretty 825 00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:18,479 Speaker 1: Before we leave you, since we're talking about fairy tales, 826 00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:20,960 Speaker 1: we thought would be appropriate to mention that two of 827 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:26,080 Speaker 1: our horror fiction contest submitters are published once published again. 828 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:29,920 Speaker 1: J McMurray published The Dreamings of Leonard J. M. Leaper 829 00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: and you can check that out at take publishing dot 830 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,359 Speaker 1: com not Leper, no Leaper. And then also you can 831 00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: find Patrick Scott. He wrote play I Believe, which was 832 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,520 Speaker 1: in Meat for Tea magazine and you can find uh 833 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,359 Speaker 1: information about that at meat for t dot com. Uh. 834 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,480 Speaker 1: Since I said meat for Tea, it's time for listener, man, 835 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,320 Speaker 1: I don't I wish it was time for us to 836 00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:59,240 Speaker 1: meet for tea No M E A T. Yeah, okay kidding, 837 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call this uh a little bit more on 838 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: vocal Fry. We've got a lot of response from this one. 839 00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,880 Speaker 1: I think it's second in controversy only homelessness. Yeah. A 840 00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,520 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of ladies wrote in women that 841 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 1: were very appreciative. A lot of men wrote in, um 842 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,120 Speaker 1: who were not appreciative. Many were too, Yeah, many were, 843 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,359 Speaker 1: But a lot of dudes wrote in. I think they're 844 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:25,840 Speaker 1: part of the men's movement. You know. It was divided 845 00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,359 Speaker 1: like you would expect, but there were men who wrote 846 00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:30,640 Speaker 1: in to support us. There are women who who wrote 847 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:34,879 Speaker 1: into to criticize vocal Fry. They agreed with Naomi Wolf. Yeah, 848 00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:36,960 Speaker 1: And I just want to clear up, I don't mean 849 00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: all old white men are awful. I don't I you 850 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:41,759 Speaker 1: don't even need to say that. If you're not one 851 00:48:41,760 --> 00:48:44,960 Speaker 1: of the ones that are doing these things, then great, 852 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,920 Speaker 1: who cares? Yeah, I know you don't need to defend 853 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 1: the ones who are all right, here we go. Hey, guys, 854 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,880 Speaker 1: just want to say thanks so much for your recently 855 00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,120 Speaker 1: for recently tackling some very charged gender issues in the 856 00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: most mature but not apologist of ways. I like how 857 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,839 Speaker 1: this emails on, whether it be female puberty, vocal Fry, 858 00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,240 Speaker 1: or your excellent double duo with the stuff you misson 859 00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,000 Speaker 1: History Class Crew and listener mail. You nailed what I 860 00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,800 Speaker 1: consider to be the best way to handle the ubiquitous 861 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:14,400 Speaker 1: double standards that women find themselves held to state that 862 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,480 Speaker 1: it is unequivpably wrong, then calmly and rationally pick apart 863 00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: why you were not trying to start a gender war, 864 00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:21,960 Speaker 1: though I'm sure there are those out there who will 865 00:49:21,960 --> 00:49:26,440 Speaker 1: take it as such. Uh see the beginning of this email. Um, 866 00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,520 Speaker 1: but you meticulously undercut the meticulously undercut the arguments and 867 00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:34,480 Speaker 1: unconscious justifications that allow these attitudes to endure underneath all 868 00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:38,839 Speaker 1: the truths by consensus and familial and cultural norms. Very 869 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,520 Speaker 1: little remains to give weight to these perspectives, and I 870 00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:45,840 Speaker 1: believe that both genders are, albeit slowly shedding them, thanks 871 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,799 Speaker 1: to the efforts of you and many others on this path. 872 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,720 Speaker 1: Very well said right now, this is the road to equality, dudes. 873 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:54,960 Speaker 1: I throw that in there, and I cannot say how 874 00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,640 Speaker 1: much I appreciate your proper championing of it. We are 875 00:49:57,680 --> 00:50:00,560 Speaker 1: all persons, no matter our gender, and should you respected 876 00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:05,200 Speaker 1: as such, free as much as possible of worthless generalizations. Also, 877 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: as a side note, I was once upon a time 878 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: a linguist and very much agree with your handling of 879 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:14,000 Speaker 1: socio linguistics A linguists. Sorry, Chuck, is that because I 880 00:50:14,040 --> 00:50:21,360 Speaker 1: said like linguists, linguisticator or something. A linguists most fundamental 881 00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:24,560 Speaker 1: tenant is that no use of language to communicate is wrong, 882 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,200 Speaker 1: and thus linguistic evolution should be no more surprising than 883 00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,120 Speaker 1: that of pop music or fashion. Yeah, the prescriptivists are 884 00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:36,120 Speaker 1: just screaming at their ipous ideas and perspectives change and language, 885 00:50:36,120 --> 00:50:38,840 Speaker 1: by its nature will rise to meet it. Cheers. That 886 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,319 Speaker 1: is from David, a long time Stuff you Should Know FAM. 887 00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,280 Speaker 1: Thanks a lot, David. That was a very kind email, 888 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,719 Speaker 1: Very well said UM representative. I would say about half 889 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:50,799 Speaker 1: of the emails that we got about vocal Fride the 890 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,200 Speaker 1: other half. If you want to get in touch with us, 891 00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 1: you can tweak to us at s y s K podcast. 892 00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:59,440 Speaker 1: You can join us on Facebook dot com, slash Stuff 893 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:01,320 Speaker 1: you Should Know. You can send us an email to 894 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,319 Speaker 1: Stuff podcast at how stuff Works dot com and has 895 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,560 Speaker 1: always joined us at our home on the web, Stuff 896 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:13,320 Speaker 1: you Should Know dot com. For more on this and 897 00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:24,960 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics, visit how stuff Works dot com