WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: The Smiley Face Murders 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:05.359 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by repelling kunquistadors. Instead, 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:09.840 it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon. 0:00:10.400 --> 0:00:13.960 Visit patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways to learn more 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:23.919 and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't I'm not comte. You 0:00:24.040 --> 0:00:31.000 never know what stories of things we simply don't know 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:37.919 the answer too. Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of 0:00:37.920 --> 0:00:43.240 Thinking Sideways the podcast. I Am Devin, joined as usual 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:48.839 by Joe Steve. I tricked you, guys. Both just made 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:52.080 weird eyes at both of you. And it's October, so 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.600 we're still in our Thinking Sideways Most Wanted and this 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:58.600 week we had a tie. You may or may not 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:03.360 notice that the it's Tuesday today, not a normal week, 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.839 and actually usually on Tuesday's when we release episodes, they're 0:01:08.200 --> 0:01:10.720 what we call shorts. They're usually about half hour long. 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:12.640 I have no idea how long this episode is going 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:15.240 to be, probably longer than a normal short. But there 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:17.480 will be another one which will also be shorter than 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:22.320 a longer episode, shorter than a longer than a normal episode. 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:26.679 Um that will come out this Thursday later. I'm sure 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:28.680 many of you are waiting with bated breath, but we 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:35.200 had to tie this week, so for the second most requested, 0:01:35.319 --> 0:01:41.080 the first runner up, runners up, the first runners up. Yeah, 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:46.680 alrights America. Okay, so we one of the two stories 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:48.720 we're going to talk about, but tonight we're going to 0:01:48.800 --> 0:01:52.280 talk about the Smiley Face murderers or the alleged Smiley 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:56.680 Face murderers, or the Smiley Face killer theory. Okay, any 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:02.680 other names? Okay. So two thousand eight, two retired New 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.120 York police detectives went public with a theory that they've 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:11.840 been developing um for years, almost a decade. Yeah. Basically, 0:02:11.880 --> 0:02:16.240 this theory was that, since nine young white athletic men 0:02:16.480 --> 0:02:20.239 from areas ranging as far from New York to Minnesota 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:25.080 had died from drowning, and according to Frank Gannon and 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:29.040 Anthony Duarte they're too retired New York detectives that I 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:32.680 referenced earlier, these men had all actually been murdered by 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.840 a mass serial killer dubbed the Smiley Face Murderer or 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:38.919 the Smiley Face Killer due to the fact that smiley 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:41.800 faces had been painted near where the bodies had allegedly 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:47.079 entered the water. Yeah, allegedly. Yeah, I'm gonna try real 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:52.080 hard to keep allegedly and apparently and reportedly out of 0:02:52.120 --> 0:02:54.400 this episode. I'm gonna try not to let my bias 0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:59.760 seep in too hard and just uh it is so, 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:01.919 but I apologize in advance if that seeps in a 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:05.720 little bit. Okay, here's the facts as presented by the 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:09.760 detectives to support their theory. Almost all of the victims 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.399 were white, college aged males who were described as athletic, 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:18.799 very good looking, and academically successful to me, yeah, obviously, um, 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:21.560 And actually this caused them to theorize that the murderer 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:26.000 was in fact jealous of them, so he would have 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:32.120 been ugly, ostracized and dumb. So yeah, so the opposite 0:03:32.160 --> 0:03:36.760 of you. Wait, The victims were all seen at local 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:41.200 parties or bars getting drunk prior to me, making them 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:46.240 susceptible victims. Almost all of the victims were found in 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:49.920 freezing winter months in northern States and no longer me 0:03:50.960 --> 0:03:56.520 and at least a dozen of the murders, meaning about 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:02.440 that n of the cases. Um. A painted smiley face 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:07.360 was found quote unquote near the place that detectives estimated 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:10.080 the young men had entered the water, and near is 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:17.200 never best, nobody ever says. Within this amount of radius. 0:04:18.000 --> 0:04:21.200 It's all just like near And then how how did 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:25.920 they tie the other of the cam? Because they fit 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:29.120 the description of the typical victim as in they were 0:04:29.160 --> 0:04:32.359 white college age males described as athletic, good looking, and 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:36.560 academically successful, and they drowned and drunk in a bar 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:42.560 horror party. So sure, Um, there's an article actually I 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:44.120 found which I think we're going to put on the 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:48.680 website in the UM actually by the Homicide Research Center 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:54.800 called quote drowning the Smiley Faced murder theory. It was great, Yeah, 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:57.320 and I'm just going to quote from it of their 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.440 described m O from what they could tell from what 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.279 the detectives were saying. Quote. Central to the claim of 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:07.240 serial homicide offending is the alleged linkage of victims by 0:05:07.240 --> 0:05:10.440 the discovery of painted graffiti proc symbol to the location 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:13.560 of the victim. As many as twenty two smiley faces 0:05:13.600 --> 0:05:16.520 have been identified by investigators, as well as an occasional 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:23.240 discovery of the word sinnes seua. That's hard sincecinema investigators 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.120 interpret graffiti as taunting of the police. The theory of 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.840 these deaths include offenders drugging the victims with GHB or 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.400 a similar drug, abducting the victim, driving the victim around 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.479 for hours in a van or truck, torturing them, and 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:39.280 then slipping the body into the water. Detectives alleged that 0:05:39.320 --> 0:05:41.200 the motive for the dumping of the remains into the 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:44.400 water is to wash away evidence. In the Jenkins case, 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.280 a correctional inmate is said to have confused confessed guilt 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:52.320 of the killing to a cellmate. A general assertion has 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.040 been made that all of the identified victims are male, 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:57.960 and finally, that people don't fall into the water by accident. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:02.760 Of course, not never happens fishman. Yeah. Also, I'll just 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.520 mentioned quickly before we get too far into this that, um, 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:09.760 some of these victims died on the same nights in 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:15.760 totally different states. Like some of the victims, yeah, um, 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:19.479 like or sorry of the forty five victims thousands of 0:06:19.480 --> 0:06:23.440 miles apart, which led the detectives to believe that maybe 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:26.040 instead of being one serial killer, it was like a 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:29.600 gang of serial killers the network that all went out 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:33.360 on the same night. Your mission tonight, should you accepted? 0:06:33.640 --> 0:06:37.200 A group of guys who you know, were had decided 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:39.000 that this was the kind of endeavor they were going 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.080 to undertake and the opportunity struck for you know, both 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:44.599 of them on the same night, Not that it was 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.200 like planned that it would be like tonight twenty of 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:48.880 you were going to go out. It was a couple 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:52.040 of them. The way I under the way I read 0:06:52.120 --> 0:06:56.640 interpreted that was that they were an organized group that 0:06:56.640 --> 0:06:58.720 that tried to do it on at the same time. 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:00.200 I gotta be honest with you, The sense that I 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.480 got about when describing this group was like some dudes 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:07.120 on four Chan. Yeah, you know, it was that it 0:07:07.160 --> 0:07:11.160 was just an anonymous group or whatever. But how many 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.400 is so? No more than two people were killed on 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:15.880 the same night then, not as far as I could tell. 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:21.240 And granted, the number of actual victims ranges quite drastically 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:24.880 depending on what source you site, so it's hard to 0:07:25.040 --> 0:07:29.440 decide who falls into this category and who doesn't. I 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:31.600 was going to ask you about that, because when I 0:07:31.640 --> 0:07:34.520 was doing the research, I found a lot of sites 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:37.520 that there were things where it would purport that this 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:39.680 if you link to this site, it's got a list 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.640 of the victims, and it's got all mapped up. And 0:07:42.400 --> 0:07:45.400 nine and a half out of ten times that site 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:48.920 didn't exist anymore. And so there was there was no 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:51.920 list of all these victims that were always referenced and 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:53.880 the list of the victim is from but you could 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.360 never actually find the list. So yeah, that was my 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:01.880 big struggle with this story, bringing into just dead end. Yeah, yeah, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.440 and we'll talk a little bit about that later. Did 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.240 you get a copy of these guys books and they 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:08.160 probably have a list in there? You know? I didn't 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:11.040 because the cheapest one I could find was like thirty bucks? 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.400 Are you kidding me? Everywhere I said, it was like 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.000 a hundred and thirty bucks And if you wanted, you know, 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:21.040 some places will let you rent books or e checkout 0:08:21.080 --> 0:08:24.080 books for a fee. The cheapest I ever saw it 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:27.640 available to rent was sixty bucks. I saw it to 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:34.280 rent for like thirty but yeah, not no, why expensive 0:08:34.640 --> 0:08:41.800 because he's buying it five copies couper costs, I don't know. 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:47.240 So of these forty five victims or suspected victims, only 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.719 two of them have officially been ruled murders or in 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:58.720 suspicious deaths. The rest of them officially are accidental drownings. 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.200 So we'll talk about these two murders in a little detail. 0:09:02.880 --> 0:09:06.520 Too specific ones, these two specific ones that people generally 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:11.000 agree are at least suspicious. One of them, nobody disagrees 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:14.640 was a murder. Another one of them, well, let's talk 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.200 about that first one. But we don't know if it 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.680 was a murder or not. It's a boy by the 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:23.240 name boy, a young man by the name of Patrick McNeill. He, 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:25.400 as far as any as far as I can tell 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:28.480 and as as far as the Internet law goes, was 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:33.800 the kind of spearhead case gannon, one of the kind 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.160 of the biggest proponent detective of this theory of this 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.520 the serial killer theory. He he worked on this case 0:09:41.240 --> 0:09:45.000 as a as a police officer. Yes, so it was 0:09:45.080 --> 0:09:47.439 when he was still serving, and it kind of stuck 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.360 with him, all right. So Patrick McNeil, after a night 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.880 of bar hopping with friends a quote incredibly drunk, unquote, 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:58.280 Patrick told his friends that he was tired and he 0:09:58.320 --> 0:10:00.559 had an early class, so he was going to take 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:02.880 the subway back to campus. He was a student at 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.320 Fordham University, which is in New York. In New York. Yeah, 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.840 actually yeah. One of his female friends said that she 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:13.720 was also ready to go, but as I can attest, 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:15.679 as a lady, had to go to the bathroom first. 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.040 It's hard when you're drunk, you know, you break the seal. 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:22.280 Oh yeah, yeah, you guys have been drinking with me. 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:27.400 I'm being Yeah. So she went to the bathroom, and 0:10:27.440 --> 0:10:28.880 you know, she said, wait here, I'm gonna go to 0:10:28.920 --> 0:10:30.920 the bathroom. She went to the bathroom, she came back, 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:37.480 he was gone. Yeah. It was February six, as we said, 0:10:37.480 --> 0:10:40.160 in New York City. Ten days later, more than six 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:42.719 people showed up to volunteer to help look for him, 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.120 because you know, he had been reported missing. By this point. 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:50.120 Police had searched hospital, soup kitchens and even um Rikers 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.680 Island jail for him. By this point, you know, kind 0:10:52.679 --> 0:10:54.920 of all of the things that you would do, and 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:58.320 more than ten thousand flyers had been hung all around 0:10:58.320 --> 0:10:59.920 New York City and all the way up to Young 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.960 curs Uh. And then it wasn't until April seven that 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:07.400 his body was finally found floating twelve miles downriver from 0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.319 where he had last been seen. I used the term 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:15.079 just twelve miles. Most of the internet says a startling 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:21.360 twelve miles. But after a couple of all the medical 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.839 examiner said that he had a quote moderate amount of 0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:27.680 alcohol in his blood stream, in fact, actually the exact 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.520 quote was more than a little and less than a 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:36.000 lot of alcohol in his blood stream. Um and during 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:40.640 that time. The New York medical examiners don't release exact 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:44.319 blood alcohol numbers. I'm going to use that next time 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:46.720 they get asked how much I've had to drink? Well, 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:52.959 officer quote medical left than a lot. You know. The 0:11:53.000 --> 0:11:54.400 cop pulls me over and he asked me that I 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:59.600 just go a lot so much? Why you're a little 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:09.240 jealous job Sorry, yeah, geez. Patrick had, according to the 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:12.840 original report, had no broken bones, no head trauma, and 0:12:12.920 --> 0:12:16.880 no physical injuries. His cause of death death was left undetermined, 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:21.720 though they specified accidental undetermined. He was in good shape, 0:12:22.080 --> 0:12:26.080 apparently not as drunk as people had indicated, according to 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:31.000 the medical examler. The medical examiner he had uh so 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:33.640 nobody knows how he wound up in the river. And 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.440 according to the original report, he had been in the 0:12:37.440 --> 0:12:40.120 water since he was disappeared, so it wasn't a later 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:43.280 body dump. So it wasn't like a month later somebody 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:45.520 pitched him into the river or something crazy like, according 0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:49.199 to the original report. Will continue to specify. According to 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.160 the original report, who actually did find the original New 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.640 York Times article online and read it, and this is 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:59.560 all consistent with the original reporting. It's repeated over and 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:04.160 over again throughout a lot of the literature. I'm presuming 0:13:04.160 --> 0:13:07.280 that his trip to the subway station didn't take him 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:09.079 over any bodies of water, like to Let the River. 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.720 As a note, the owner of the last bar that 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:19.959 he was in that he left drunk paid um dred 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.480 dollars in fines for serving what we in the industry 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:28.400 called a visibly intoxicated person, under allegations that Patrick had 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:31.080 actually fallen down in the bathroom he was so drunk 0:13:31.080 --> 0:13:34.720 and continued to get served. It's hard, but it's hard 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.320 to know he so he was. He was twenty actually 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.240 when he disappeared. He was actually a week away from 0:13:41.240 --> 0:13:43.920 his twenty first birthday, and so it's hard to know. 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.679 At that age, you kind of presume he was an athlete. 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.839 He'd probably been drinking a lot for you know, since 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:53.640 he was a kid, since he was sixteen. He could 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.200 probably handle his liquor. But it's also possible that that's 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:58.760 not the case. It's possible that he hadn't ever really 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.360 been drinking. And you know, when you first start drinking, 0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.080 you don't have to have that high of a blood 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:07.040 alcohol content for it to like affect you because you 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.880 don't know what's you're not prepared well and and you've 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.040 got her. I don't know if you too remember this, 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:16.760 but I remember this vividly, is that as suddenly able 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.240 to go to the bar kind of guy you drink 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:21.960 when you can't go to the bar, and so you 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.560 have drinks and you you don't have a whole bunch 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:28.280 of rapid succession. There's something about when you're first in 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.920 the bar. Shot shot, shot, let's have shots, and so 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.800 you down, you know, a bunch of booze really fast 0:14:36.440 --> 0:14:39.040 and it'll knock you on on your seat in no 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:42.840 time flat. Or you're drinking things that have hidden the alcohol, 0:14:42.920 --> 0:14:46.400 you know, or there are a lot of different ways 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:50.880 that a lower blood alcohol content can actually make you 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:56.880 act and feel drunker than your blood alcohol content. Totally 0:14:56.880 --> 0:15:02.120 depends on what he was drinking, and you know, he 0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:04.840 was tired or like what you know, and he did 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:07.800 drown though right since he fell in the bathroom. I 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:09.520 wonder if you know, the girl goes off to go 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:11.280 to the bathroom, he decides, what the hell I should 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.720 go to the bathroom too for a climb on the subway, 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:16.280 and he passes out and winds up with his head 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.000 of the toilet and he drowns, and then the bartender 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.640 finds him there. Well, it was undetermined, so it actually 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.080 I'm actually joking. Yeah, no, I know, but that is 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.680 that is a good point to reiterate that the medical 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.240 examiner couldn't determine that he drowned, just that he was 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.000 he had water in his lungs, but it wasn't it 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:38.080 wasn't provable that that's what killed. Yes, all right, that 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:40.480 all out of the way. A Gannon, I guess was 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:42.720 a police officer. I couldn't ever quite get a handle 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:44.680 on if he was just like a beat cop or 0:15:44.720 --> 0:15:48.080 if he was an investigator. He was a detective at 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:50.080 the time. Yeah, that was the impression I had to 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.440 But it was earlier in his career. He's not a 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:56.320 particularly old guy. He's still around now. Not that seven 0:15:56.440 --> 0:15:59.480 was that long ago, but that was almost twenty years ago, 0:15:59.520 --> 0:16:03.840 in case anybody needs to feel really old. I think 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:05.560 he was a coup for like fifteen or twenty years 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.800 something like that. Yeah, no, no, I mean so he 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:11.600 it was earlier in his career. Certainly he wrote a 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:15.640 report about this case trying to get it reclassified as 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:18.400 a homicide, and I've read the report. I think we'll 0:16:18.440 --> 0:16:20.200 probably link that one too. That will be one of 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:21.960 the links that we put up for this because it's 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:26.560 actually good to read his report. Apparently the investigators on 0:16:26.600 --> 0:16:29.440 the case, and because it was an unresolved case, this 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.400 this kind of makes sense. They didn't release the full 0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:35.560 autopsy package, which means, you know, all of the the 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:38.040 reports and all the pictures and all of that stuff, 0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:41.480 until two thousand nine for the public and two thousand 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:43.960 eight to the family. And it was about a month 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:48.400 after the package was released that Gannon put forth this 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:53.080 this theory of the serial killer. So here's some additional 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.040 stuff that Gannon says that he discovered about this case. 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.160 Apparently based on the water currents of the easter. Ever, 0:17:00.200 --> 0:17:03.000 when Patrick was found, his body shouldn't have been where 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:06.320 it was found. The allegation is that he would have 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:08.480 had to have been abducted and dropped into the river 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.600 at that point in order for him to have ended 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:13.760 up there at all. I will know the East River 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:16.080 for those of you that do not know, is was 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:20.359 and still is an active shipping lane, so there's lots 0:17:20.359 --> 0:17:23.480 of big ships that go back and forth. I understand 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.080 the theory of currents, but I also feel like that 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.199 stuff gets disrupted sometimes by giant ships coming in and 0:17:29.200 --> 0:17:34.119 out the current. The current does go down stream, I 0:17:34.119 --> 0:17:38.680 don't know. Yeah, a witness apparently reported seeing a car 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:42.840 falling Patrick that night. I that's literally the only information 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.800 they were able to give, like a partial plate number 0:17:47.000 --> 0:17:50.080 that never went anywhere. I don't put a lot of 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:53.760 stock into that. Patrick was found in just his genes 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.840 underwear in socks. This caused the investigators to state that 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:00.359 it's hard to believe that he would have stripped the 0:18:00.400 --> 0:18:02.480 rest of his clothing off and jumped in the river 0:18:02.680 --> 0:18:05.199 because Patrick had less been seen wearing a like a 0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:09.639 plaid button up shirt, jeans, and some brown boots. I 0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:11.840 never saw mention of a jacket, despite the fact that 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:16.040 it was like fagrees in February, three degrees fahrenheit. Thing 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.439 think about it is, is it really makes me wonder 0:18:18.560 --> 0:18:22.160 is if he had his socks on, but he took 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:24.360 his boots off and he was and he didn't tend 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:28.840 to go swimming. Unlikely, but right, right, So if he 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:30.560 took his boots off. Why didn't he take his socks 0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:35.240 off too? Yeah, that seems I agree. I agree, And 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.399 you know, as I said, there's there's certainly some weird 0:18:39.480 --> 0:18:42.879 stuff about this case. I'm not going to refute that 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.200 there are some things that will so we're going through 0:18:46.240 --> 0:18:48.359 this and we can go back and kind of, you know, 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:51.520 pick it apart. But there's some weird stuff about it. 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:53.520 But there's also a lot of stuff that just seems 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.879 like you're grasping at straws. Yeah, yeah, no. Uh. The 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:02.320 blood alcohol level, the actual number UM in Patrick's system, 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.760 was actually eventually released to be point one six, which 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:09.479 is twice the legal limit in America. And we do 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:13.280 know that bodies do produce alcohol as they decomposed, so 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:15.760 apparently the investigators were able to figure out based on 0:19:15.800 --> 0:19:18.240 the time that he was dead and blah blah blah blah, 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:24.080 that blood alcohol level was likely more like point one two, 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.399 which it would have been six strinks over the course 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.960 of an hour. UM six strengths in an hour. That's 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.880 pretty good. It's not bad. It's pretty true. I mean 0:19:33.080 --> 0:19:37.919 to be fair, like point oway feels pretty tipsy. Twice 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:45.920 that feels pretty drunk. And I'm an experienced drinker, So yeah, 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.959 for a twenty one year old, it's I don't know. 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.320 The other part of this is Patrick he was He 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:54.920 had been an athlete in in high school. He was 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.080 six ft tall and a hundred and nine pounds, So 0:19:58.200 --> 0:20:01.680 the investigators say that he couldn't possibly have been acting 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.399 as drunk as he was reported unless there was something 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.080 else in play, like a drug of some sort. Patrick 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:10.560 was also found on his back, which in drowning cases 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.960 is incredibly rare, particularly for someone of his physique. If 0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.800 you have, um, a bunch of fat on your front, yeah, 0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.240 a lot of you know, fat has a tendency to float, 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:25.520 so that'll flip you over if you're like really overweight 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:27.919 or a beast or anything like that. Um, but he 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:34.119 was obviously not, so apparently that's a big thing. Additionally, 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.200 the way that the blood settled in his body, the lividity, 0:20:37.240 --> 0:20:40.439 apparently indicated that he had died on his front and 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.000 been on his front for the first at least eight hours. 0:20:43.960 --> 0:20:46.520 It takes eight hours, it's my understanding. It takes eight 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:48.760 hours for a lividity to sit in, set in. But 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:52.320 once it's set in, it's done. Pretty much. The blood 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:57.399 has settled, it's done. Yeah, yeah, so apparently he the 0:20:57.560 --> 0:21:00.000 allegation is that he would have had to have died 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.520 I had and been on his front for the first 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:08.720 face down, at least the well face down. It doesn't say, 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:13.560 it doesn't matter where. If he had just rolled over 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:16.760 in the water so that you just face up after 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:19.160 you drowned and everything, that's you know, that doesn't that's 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:21.159 you know, you would have to be for somebody to 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.920 have to somebody to place him in their face up 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.760 in the water, then they would have had to have 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.240 face down somewhere. You're not going to throw your body 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:31.840 in the water, leave it there for eight hours and 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.320 then go back in your boat and turn it over. No. No, 0:21:34.400 --> 0:21:36.320 And then that's what Devin's getting at, is that he 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:40.280 drowned face down. Yeah, well that if or he was 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:43.000 faced down and then at some point. What all I'm 0:21:43.040 --> 0:21:45.879 saying is that he he died face down and was 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.080 face down for the first eight hours. Whether it was 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:50.840 in water or on land, it remains to be determined, 0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.159 especially since you know, we can just go into this 0:21:53.320 --> 0:21:55.639 right now, since it is an active shipping lane. It 0:21:55.680 --> 0:21:59.720 doesn't seem crazy out of the realm of possibilities to 0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:02.200 me that in the like four months that he was 0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:04.639 in the river to whatever the two months he was 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:08.520 in the river, he could have gotten flipped over somehow. 0:22:08.560 --> 0:22:11.239 You know that that's reasonable to me. Whether or not 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.800 you know land sea, I don't, But the fact of 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:16.399 the matter is is that it does seem that he 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:20.200 died on his front. The autopsy also apparently stated that 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:23.000 there were literature marks around his neck, which would indicate 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:28.080 that he had been strangled, strangled with something there m 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:37.600 there were fly eggs in his pubic hair, which suggested 0:22:37.680 --> 0:22:39.600 that he would have had to have been allowed to 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.440 decompose on land in an area that was warmer than 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:48.520 approximately forty degrees fahrenheit. Why does that have to be land? 0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:51.800 I mean it could be somewhere warmer but still in 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:55.359 the water. Potentially good flies, don't They were like horseflies. 0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:58.280 They don't lay eggs in the water, So his pelvis 0:22:58.280 --> 0:23:01.120 would have had to have been above water for them 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:06.200 to have And that's really unlikely, super unlikely, Yeah, super 0:23:06.560 --> 0:23:10.080 can I can? I I don't actually think that's super unlikely. 0:23:10.200 --> 0:23:12.240 I also think that explains why he doesn't have boots 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:15.680 if he washes up on shore for a while under 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:18.760 a dock or something, and some homeless dude finds seems like, hey, 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:21.560 free pair of boots, nice shirt, I'll take that, and 0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:24.199 he's sitting there for a while. That would explain a 0:23:24.280 --> 0:23:28.040 why those things were gone, and be why he had 0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:30.439 flies on him because docks, you know, I mean, the 0:23:30.520 --> 0:23:34.040 docks aren't just against the sea wall. That's true, there 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:36.800 is you know, the land does slope down underneath them. 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:39.600 So that's why that's why I was. I had to 0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:42.160 bring that up because it just doesn't mean a whole 0:23:42.240 --> 0:23:44.760