1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,359 Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by repelling kunquistadors. Instead, 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: it's supported by the generous donations of our listeners on Patreon. 3 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: Visit patreon dot com slash Thinking Sideways to learn more 4 00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't I'm not comte. You 5 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: never know what stories of things we simply don't know 6 00:00:31,120 --> 00:00:37,919 Speaker 1: the answer too. Hey, guys, welcome to another episode of 7 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:43,240 Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways the podcast. I Am Devin, joined as usual 8 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: by Joe Steve. I tricked you, guys. Both just made 9 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: weird eyes at both of you. And it's October, so 10 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: we're still in our Thinking Sideways Most Wanted and this 11 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: week we had a tie. You may or may not 12 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 1: notice that the it's Tuesday today, not a normal week, 13 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,839 Speaker 1: and actually usually on Tuesday's when we release episodes, they're 14 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: what we call shorts. They're usually about half hour long. 15 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: I have no idea how long this episode is going 16 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: to be, probably longer than a normal short. But there 17 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: will be another one which will also be shorter than 18 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: a longer episode, shorter than a longer than a normal episode. 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: Um that will come out this Thursday later. I'm sure 20 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:28,680 Speaker 1: many of you are waiting with bated breath, but we 21 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:35,200 Speaker 1: had to tie this week, so for the second most requested, 22 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: the first runner up, runners up, the first runners up. Yeah, 23 00:01:41,280 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: alrights America. Okay, so we one of the two stories 24 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about, but tonight we're going to 25 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: talk about the Smiley Face murderers or the alleged Smiley 26 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: Face murderers, or the Smiley Face killer theory. Okay, any 27 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: other names? Okay. So two thousand eight, two retired New 28 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 1: York police detectives went public with a theory that they've 29 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:11,840 Speaker 1: been developing um for years, almost a decade. Yeah. Basically, 30 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 1: this theory was that, since nine young white athletic men 31 00:02:16,480 --> 00:02:20,239 Speaker 1: from areas ranging as far from New York to Minnesota 32 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,080 Speaker 1: had died from drowning, and according to Frank Gannon and 33 00:02:25,120 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: Anthony Duarte they're too retired New York detectives that I 34 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:32,680 Speaker 1: referenced earlier, these men had all actually been murdered by 35 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 1: a mass serial killer dubbed the Smiley Face Murderer or 36 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: the Smiley Face Killer due to the fact that smiley 37 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: faces had been painted near where the bodies had allegedly 38 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:47,079 Speaker 1: entered the water. Yeah, allegedly. Yeah, I'm gonna try real 39 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: hard to keep allegedly and apparently and reportedly out of 40 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,400 Speaker 1: this episode. I'm gonna try not to let my bias 41 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: seep in too hard and just uh it is so, 42 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:01,919 Speaker 1: but I apologize in advance if that seeps in a 43 00:03:02,000 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: little bit. Okay, here's the facts as presented by the 44 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: detectives to support their theory. Almost all of the victims 45 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,399 Speaker 1: were white, college aged males who were described as athletic, 46 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: very good looking, and academically successful to me, yeah, obviously, um, 47 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 1: And actually this caused them to theorize that the murderer 48 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: was in fact jealous of them, so he would have 49 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: been ugly, ostracized and dumb. So yeah, so the opposite 50 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 1: of you. Wait, The victims were all seen at local 51 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: parties or bars getting drunk prior to me, making them 52 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: susceptible victims. Almost all of the victims were found in 53 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 1: freezing winter months in northern States and no longer me 54 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: and at least a dozen of the murders, meaning about 55 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: that n of the cases. Um. A painted smiley face 56 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: was found quote unquote near the place that detectives estimated 57 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: the young men had entered the water, and near is 58 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: never best, nobody ever says. Within this amount of radius. 59 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: It's all just like near And then how how did 60 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: they tie the other of the cam? Because they fit 61 00:04:26,040 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 1: the description of the typical victim as in they were 62 00:04:29,160 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: white college age males described as athletic, good looking, and 63 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: academically successful, and they drowned and drunk in a bar 64 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: horror party. So sure, Um, there's an article actually I 65 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,120 Speaker 1: found which I think we're going to put on the 66 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 1: website in the UM actually by the Homicide Research Center 67 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: called quote drowning the Smiley Faced murder theory. It was great, Yeah, 68 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: and I'm just going to quote from it of their 69 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: described m O from what they could tell from what 70 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: the detectives were saying. Quote. Central to the claim of 71 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: serial homicide offending is the alleged linkage of victims by 72 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 1: the discovery of painted graffiti proc symbol to the location 73 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: of the victim. As many as twenty two smiley faces 74 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: have been identified by investigators, as well as an occasional 75 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: discovery of the word sinnes seua. That's hard sincecinema investigators 76 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: interpret graffiti as taunting of the police. The theory of 77 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: these deaths include offenders drugging the victims with GHB or 78 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 1: a similar drug, abducting the victim, driving the victim around 79 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,479 Speaker 1: for hours in a van or truck, torturing them, and 80 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:39,280 Speaker 1: then slipping the body into the water. Detectives alleged that 81 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: the motive for the dumping of the remains into the 82 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: water is to wash away evidence. In the Jenkins case, 83 00:05:44,560 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 1: a correctional inmate is said to have confused confessed guilt 84 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: of the killing to a cellmate. A general assertion has 85 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: been made that all of the identified victims are male, 86 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: and finally, that people don't fall into the water by accident. 87 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: Of course, not never happens fishman. Yeah. Also, I'll just 88 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: mentioned quickly before we get too far into this that, um, 89 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: some of these victims died on the same nights in 90 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:15,760 Speaker 1: totally different states. Like some of the victims, yeah, um, 91 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: like or sorry of the forty five victims thousands of 92 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 1: miles apart, which led the detectives to believe that maybe 93 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 1: instead of being one serial killer, it was like a 94 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: gang of serial killers the network that all went out 95 00:06:29,600 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: on the same night. Your mission tonight, should you accepted? 96 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: A group of guys who you know, were had decided 97 00:06:37,240 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: that this was the kind of endeavor they were going 98 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 1: to undertake and the opportunity struck for you know, both 99 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,599 Speaker 1: of them on the same night, Not that it was 100 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 1: like planned that it would be like tonight twenty of 101 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: you were going to go out. It was a couple 102 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,040 Speaker 1: of them. The way I under the way I read 103 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 1: interpreted that was that they were an organized group that 104 00:06:56,640 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: that tried to do it on at the same time. 105 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 1: I gotta be honest with you, The sense that I 106 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: got about when describing this group was like some dudes 107 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:07,120 Speaker 1: on four Chan. Yeah, you know, it was that it 108 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: was just an anonymous group or whatever. But how many 109 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: is so? No more than two people were killed on 110 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: the same night then, not as far as I could tell. 111 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: And granted, the number of actual victims ranges quite drastically 112 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: depending on what source you site, so it's hard to 113 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: decide who falls into this category and who doesn't. I 114 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: was going to ask you about that, because when I 115 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: was doing the research, I found a lot of sites 116 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: that there were things where it would purport that this 117 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: if you link to this site, it's got a list 118 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: of the victims, and it's got all mapped up. And 119 00:07:42,400 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: nine and a half out of ten times that site 120 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: didn't exist anymore. And so there was there was no 121 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: list of all these victims that were always referenced and 122 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 1: the list of the victim is from but you could 123 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: never actually find the list. So yeah, that was my 124 00:07:56,480 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: big struggle with this story, bringing into just dead end. Yeah, yeah, 125 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: and we'll talk a little bit about that later. Did 126 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: you get a copy of these guys books and they 127 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: probably have a list in there? You know? I didn't 128 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: because the cheapest one I could find was like thirty bucks? 129 00:08:11,160 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? Everywhere I said, it was like 130 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: a hundred and thirty bucks And if you wanted, you know, 131 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: some places will let you rent books or e checkout 132 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: books for a fee. The cheapest I ever saw it 133 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: available to rent was sixty bucks. I saw it to 134 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: rent for like thirty but yeah, not no, why expensive 135 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: because he's buying it five copies couper costs, I don't know. 136 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: So of these forty five victims or suspected victims, only 137 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,719 Speaker 1: two of them have officially been ruled murders or in 138 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 1: suspicious deaths. The rest of them officially are accidental drownings. 139 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:02,200 Speaker 1: So we'll talk about these two murders in a little detail. 140 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: Too specific ones, these two specific ones that people generally 141 00:09:06,520 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: agree are at least suspicious. One of them, nobody disagrees 142 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: was a murder. Another one of them, well, let's talk 143 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 1: about that first one. But we don't know if it 144 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 1: was a murder or not. It's a boy by the 145 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: name boy, a young man by the name of Patrick McNeill. He, 146 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: as far as any as far as I can tell 147 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: and as as far as the Internet law goes, was 148 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: the kind of spearhead case gannon, one of the kind 149 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: of the biggest proponent detective of this theory of this 150 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 1: the serial killer theory. He he worked on this case 151 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: as a as a police officer. Yes, so it was 152 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: when he was still serving, and it kind of stuck 153 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: with him, all right. So Patrick McNeil, after a night 154 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: of bar hopping with friends a quote incredibly drunk, unquote, 155 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: Patrick told his friends that he was tired and he 156 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:00,559 Speaker 1: had an early class, so he was going to take 157 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: the subway back to campus. He was a student at 158 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,320 Speaker 1: Fordham University, which is in New York. In New York. Yeah, 159 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 1: actually yeah. One of his female friends said that she 160 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 1: was also ready to go, but as I can attest, 161 00:10:13,760 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: as a lady, had to go to the bathroom first. 162 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 1: It's hard when you're drunk, you know, you break the seal. 163 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, you guys have been drinking with me. 164 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: I'm being Yeah. So she went to the bathroom, and 165 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: you know, she said, wait here, I'm gonna go to 166 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: the bathroom. She went to the bathroom, she came back, 167 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 1: he was gone. Yeah. It was February six, as we said, 168 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,160 Speaker 1: in New York City. Ten days later, more than six 169 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: people showed up to volunteer to help look for him, 170 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: because you know, he had been reported missing. By this point. 171 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 1: Police had searched hospital, soup kitchens and even um Rikers 172 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: Island jail for him. By this point, you know, kind 173 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: of all of the things that you would do, and 174 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 1: more than ten thousand flyers had been hung all around 175 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: New York City and all the way up to Young 176 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: curs Uh. And then it wasn't until April seven that 177 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: his body was finally found floating twelve miles downriver from 178 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:10,319 Speaker 1: where he had last been seen. I used the term 179 00:11:10,480 --> 00:11:15,079 Speaker 1: just twelve miles. Most of the internet says a startling 180 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 1: twelve miles. But after a couple of all the medical 181 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,839 Speaker 1: examiner said that he had a quote moderate amount of 182 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,680 Speaker 1: alcohol in his blood stream, in fact, actually the exact 183 00:11:27,760 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: quote was more than a little and less than a 184 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: lot of alcohol in his blood stream. Um and during 185 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: that time. The New York medical examiners don't release exact 186 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: blood alcohol numbers. I'm going to use that next time 187 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 1: they get asked how much I've had to drink? Well, 188 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:52,959 Speaker 1: officer quote medical left than a lot. You know. The 189 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: cop pulls me over and he asked me that I 190 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: just go a lot so much? Why you're a little 191 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: jealous job Sorry, yeah, geez. Patrick had, according to the 192 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:12,840 Speaker 1: original report, had no broken bones, no head trauma, and 193 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: no physical injuries. His cause of death death was left undetermined, 194 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: though they specified accidental undetermined. He was in good shape, 195 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:26,080 Speaker 1: apparently not as drunk as people had indicated, according to 196 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: the medical examler. The medical examiner he had uh so 197 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: nobody knows how he wound up in the river. And 198 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: according to the original report, he had been in the 199 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: water since he was disappeared, so it wasn't a later 200 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 1: body dump. So it wasn't like a month later somebody 201 00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: pitched him into the river or something crazy like, according 202 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,199 Speaker 1: to the original report. Will continue to specify. According to 203 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: the original report, who actually did find the original New 204 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 1: York Times article online and read it, and this is 205 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,560 Speaker 1: all consistent with the original reporting. It's repeated over and 206 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: over again throughout a lot of the literature. I'm presuming 207 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: that his trip to the subway station didn't take him 208 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,079 Speaker 1: over any bodies of water, like to Let the River. 209 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:14,720 Speaker 1: As a note, the owner of the last bar that 210 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:19,959 Speaker 1: he was in that he left drunk paid um dred 211 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: dollars in fines for serving what we in the industry 212 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: called a visibly intoxicated person, under allegations that Patrick had 213 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,080 Speaker 1: actually fallen down in the bathroom he was so drunk 214 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: and continued to get served. It's hard, but it's hard 215 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,320 Speaker 1: to know he so he was. He was twenty actually 216 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:41,240 Speaker 1: when he disappeared. He was actually a week away from 217 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 1: his twenty first birthday, and so it's hard to know. 218 00:13:44,200 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: At that age, you kind of presume he was an athlete. 219 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: He'd probably been drinking a lot for you know, since 220 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: he was a kid, since he was sixteen. He could 221 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: probably handle his liquor. But it's also possible that that's 222 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: not the case. It's possible that he hadn't ever really 223 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: been drinking. And you know, when you first start drinking, 224 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:04,080 Speaker 1: you don't have to have that high of a blood 225 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: alcohol content for it to like affect you because you 226 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: don't know what's you're not prepared well and and you've 227 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 1: got her. I don't know if you too remember this, 228 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: but I remember this vividly, is that as suddenly able 229 00:14:16,760 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: to go to the bar kind of guy you drink 230 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: when you can't go to the bar, and so you 231 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: have drinks and you you don't have a whole bunch 232 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 1: of rapid succession. There's something about when you're first in 233 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: the bar. Shot shot, shot, let's have shots, and so 234 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: you down, you know, a bunch of booze really fast 235 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: and it'll knock you on on your seat in no 236 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: time flat. Or you're drinking things that have hidden the alcohol, 237 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,400 Speaker 1: you know, or there are a lot of different ways 238 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: that a lower blood alcohol content can actually make you 239 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: act and feel drunker than your blood alcohol content. Totally 240 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: depends on what he was drinking, and you know, he 241 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 1: was tired or like what you know, and he did 242 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 1: drown though right since he fell in the bathroom. I 243 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: wonder if you know, the girl goes off to go 244 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 1: to the bathroom, he decides, what the hell I should 245 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: go to the bathroom too for a climb on the subway, 246 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: and he passes out and winds up with his head 247 00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: of the toilet and he drowns, and then the bartender 248 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: finds him there. Well, it was undetermined, so it actually 249 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 1: I'm actually joking. Yeah, no, I know, but that is 250 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: that is a good point to reiterate that the medical 251 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,240 Speaker 1: examiner couldn't determine that he drowned, just that he was 252 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: he had water in his lungs, but it wasn't it 253 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: wasn't provable that that's what killed. Yes, all right, that 254 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 1: all out of the way. A Gannon, I guess was 255 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: a police officer. I couldn't ever quite get a handle 256 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: on if he was just like a beat cop or 257 00:15:44,720 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: if he was an investigator. He was a detective at 258 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: the time. Yeah, that was the impression I had to 259 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: But it was earlier in his career. He's not a 260 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: particularly old guy. He's still around now. Not that seven 261 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: was that long ago, but that was almost twenty years ago, 262 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 1: in case anybody needs to feel really old. I think 263 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:05,560 Speaker 1: he was a coup for like fifteen or twenty years 264 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: something like that. Yeah, no, no, I mean so he 265 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: it was earlier in his career. Certainly he wrote a 266 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: report about this case trying to get it reclassified as 267 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: a homicide, and I've read the report. I think we'll 268 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: probably link that one too. That will be one of 269 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 1: the links that we put up for this because it's 270 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: actually good to read his report. Apparently the investigators on 271 00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: the case, and because it was an unresolved case, this 272 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: this kind of makes sense. They didn't release the full 273 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: autopsy package, which means, you know, all of the the 274 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:38,040 Speaker 1: reports and all the pictures and all of that stuff, 275 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: until two thousand nine for the public and two thousand 276 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: eight to the family. And it was about a month 277 00:16:44,040 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: after the package was released that Gannon put forth this 278 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: this theory of the serial killer. So here's some additional 279 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: stuff that Gannon says that he discovered about this case. 280 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: Apparently based on the water currents of the easter. Ever, 281 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:03,000 Speaker 1: when Patrick was found, his body shouldn't have been where 282 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 1: it was found. The allegation is that he would have 283 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: had to have been abducted and dropped into the river 284 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: at that point in order for him to have ended 285 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: up there at all. I will know the East River 286 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:16,080 Speaker 1: for those of you that do not know, is was 287 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:20,359 Speaker 1: and still is an active shipping lane, so there's lots 288 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: of big ships that go back and forth. I understand 289 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: the theory of currents, but I also feel like that 290 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: stuff gets disrupted sometimes by giant ships coming in and 291 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:34,119 Speaker 1: out the current. The current does go down stream, I 292 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, a witness apparently reported seeing a car 293 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: falling Patrick that night. I that's literally the only information 294 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: they were able to give, like a partial plate number 295 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: that never went anywhere. I don't put a lot of 296 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: stock into that. Patrick was found in just his genes 297 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: underwear in socks. This caused the investigators to state that 298 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: it's hard to believe that he would have stripped the 299 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: rest of his clothing off and jumped in the river 300 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,199 Speaker 1: because Patrick had less been seen wearing a like a 301 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: plaid button up shirt, jeans, and some brown boots. I 302 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:11,840 Speaker 1: never saw mention of a jacket, despite the fact that 303 00:18:11,880 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: it was like fagrees in February, three degrees fahrenheit. Thing 304 00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: think about it is, is it really makes me wonder 305 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:22,160 Speaker 1: is if he had his socks on, but he took 306 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 1: his boots off and he was and he didn't tend 307 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: to go swimming. Unlikely, but right, right, So if he 308 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 1: took his boots off. Why didn't he take his socks 309 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: off too? Yeah, that seems I agree. I agree, And 310 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: you know, as I said, there's there's certainly some weird 311 00:18:39,480 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: stuff about this case. I'm not going to refute that 312 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,200 Speaker 1: there are some things that will so we're going through 313 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: this and we can go back and kind of, you know, 314 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 1: pick it apart. But there's some weird stuff about it. 315 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:53,520 Speaker 1: But there's also a lot of stuff that just seems 316 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,879 Speaker 1: like you're grasping at straws. Yeah, yeah, no. Uh. The 317 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 1: blood alcohol level, the actual number UM in Patrick's system, 318 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: was actually eventually released to be point one six, which 319 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,479 Speaker 1: is twice the legal limit in America. And we do 320 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,280 Speaker 1: know that bodies do produce alcohol as they decomposed, so 321 00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: apparently the investigators were able to figure out based on 322 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 1: the time that he was dead and blah blah blah blah, 323 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:24,080 Speaker 1: that blood alcohol level was likely more like point one two, 324 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: which it would have been six strinks over the course 325 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: of an hour. UM six strengths in an hour. That's 326 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: pretty good. It's not bad. It's pretty true. I mean 327 00:19:33,080 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: to be fair, like point oway feels pretty tipsy. Twice 328 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: that feels pretty drunk. And I'm an experienced drinker, So yeah, 329 00:19:46,040 --> 00:19:48,959 Speaker 1: for a twenty one year old, it's I don't know. 330 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: The other part of this is Patrick he was He 331 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: had been an athlete in in high school. He was 332 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: six ft tall and a hundred and nine pounds, So 333 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,680 Speaker 1: the investigators say that he couldn't possibly have been acting 334 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:04,399 Speaker 1: as drunk as he was reported unless there was something 335 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: else in play, like a drug of some sort. Patrick 336 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 1: was also found on his back, which in drowning cases 337 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 1: is incredibly rare, particularly for someone of his physique. If 338 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: you have, um, a bunch of fat on your front, yeah, 339 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,240 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, fat has a tendency to float, 340 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: so that'll flip you over if you're like really overweight 341 00:20:25,600 --> 00:20:27,919 Speaker 1: or a beast or anything like that. Um, but he 342 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: was obviously not, so apparently that's a big thing. Additionally, 343 00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: the way that the blood settled in his body, the lividity, 344 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: apparently indicated that he had died on his front and 345 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: been on his front for the first at least eight hours. 346 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: It takes eight hours, it's my understanding. It takes eight 347 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: hours for a lividity to sit in, set in. But 348 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: once it's set in, it's done. Pretty much. The blood 349 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: has settled, it's done. Yeah, yeah, so apparently he the 350 00:20:57,560 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 1: allegation is that he would have had to have died 351 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 1: I had and been on his front for the first 352 00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 1: face down, at least the well face down. It doesn't say, 353 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter where. If he had just rolled over 354 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: in the water so that you just face up after 355 00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: you drowned and everything, that's you know, that doesn't that's 356 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: you know, you would have to be for somebody to 357 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 1: have to somebody to place him in their face up 358 00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: in the water, then they would have had to have 359 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 1: face down somewhere. You're not going to throw your body 360 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: in the water, leave it there for eight hours and 361 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: then go back in your boat and turn it over. No. No, 362 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: And then that's what Devin's getting at, is that he 363 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: drowned face down. Yeah, well that if or he was 364 00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: faced down and then at some point. What all I'm 365 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: saying is that he he died face down and was 366 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: face down for the first eight hours. Whether it was 367 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: in water or on land, it remains to be determined, 368 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 1: especially since you know, we can just go into this 369 00:21:53,320 --> 00:21:55,639 Speaker 1: right now, since it is an active shipping lane. It 370 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: doesn't seem crazy out of the realm of possibilities to 371 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: me that in the like four months that he was 372 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: in the river to whatever the two months he was 373 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: in the river, he could have gotten flipped over somehow. 374 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,239 Speaker 1: You know that that's reasonable to me. Whether or not 375 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: you know land sea, I don't, But the fact of 376 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,399 Speaker 1: the matter is is that it does seem that he 377 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:20,200 Speaker 1: died on his front. The autopsy also apparently stated that 378 00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: there were literature marks around his neck, which would indicate 379 00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:28,080 Speaker 1: that he had been strangled, strangled with something there m 380 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: there were fly eggs in his pubic hair, which suggested 381 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: that he would have had to have been allowed to 382 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,440 Speaker 1: decompose on land in an area that was warmer than 383 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 1: approximately forty degrees fahrenheit. Why does that have to be land? 384 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: I mean it could be somewhere warmer but still in 385 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 1: the water. Potentially good flies, don't They were like horseflies. 386 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: They don't lay eggs in the water, So his pelvis 387 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: would have had to have been above water for them 388 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:06,200 Speaker 1: to have And that's really unlikely, super unlikely, Yeah, super 389 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 1: can I can? I I don't actually think that's super unlikely. 390 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,240 Speaker 1: I also think that explains why he doesn't have boots 391 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:15,680 Speaker 1: if he washes up on shore for a while under 392 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: a dock or something, and some homeless dude finds seems like, hey, 393 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: free pair of boots, nice shirt, I'll take that, and 394 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: he's sitting there for a while. That would explain a 395 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: why those things were gone, and be why he had 396 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:30,439 Speaker 1: flies on him because docks, you know, I mean, the 397 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: docks aren't just against the sea wall. That's true, there 398 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: is you know, the land does slope down underneath them. 399 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: So that's why that's why I was. I had to 400 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: bring that up because it just doesn't mean a whole 401 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: lot to me. That's fair. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah. There was 402 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: some what they are calling severe blackening of Patrick's head, 403 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,640 Speaker 1: upper torso and lower waste area. The medical examiner says 404 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: that this is decomposition due to exposure. Gannon disagrees. He 405 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: thinks that it was actually burning that was sustained prior 406 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: to Patrick's death, like we took a blowtorch to you burning, 407 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: or thrown into a barrel that was on fire. Burn. 408 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,560 Speaker 1: Wait for a minute, that's fine, heay? Cool. Uh. They 409 00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 1: suggest that he was tied by his neck to a 410 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: chair and then exposed to fire of some kind, causing 411 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:23,960 Speaker 1: his back to be largely protected from the burns, because 412 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,439 Speaker 1: you know, the middle of his back had no burns 413 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 1: or anything like that. Okay, but they tied they tied 414 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 1: into a chair. They would have tied his hands to 415 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,239 Speaker 1: the chair at least two right, Yeah, um okay. And 416 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: then one of our favorite terms that we've talked about, Yeah, ever, 417 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 1: Devon's favorite favorite thing ever. Yeah, apparently there was a 418 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:53,840 Speaker 1: really distinct lack of skin slippage. But I agree that 419 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: that does kind of present a problem for the argument 420 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:58,400 Speaker 1: that he was in the water for more than say, 421 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: like twenty four hours, because skin starts to slip off 422 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: your body when it's been in the water for sustained 423 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: periods of time, particularly two months. I just wonder about 424 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: the temperature effects of the temperatures on that. If it's 425 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,680 Speaker 1: February when he goes in, it's frozen. Yes. They also 426 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: maintained that the decomposition on his body was not consistent, 427 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: rather that the top of him was like really decomposed, 428 00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: while the bottom of him was almost not decomposed at all, 429 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 1: because he was wearing his jeans, I don't know, or 430 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: because the top of him was maybe more out of 431 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: the water. You know that he was wearing his shoes 432 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:48,600 Speaker 1: on a sloping bank. I don't know. They point out 433 00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: four distinct parts of like different stages of decomposition happening 434 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:57,880 Speaker 1: in his on his body, but I also don't think 435 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: that's an argument for him being held on land either. 436 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: You know, I just don't think if you're going to argue, well, 437 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: his body was in different states of decomposition, well, like, 438 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,120 Speaker 1: how did that happen on land even then? Versus why 439 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 1: is that a bigger problem than just saying, well, his 440 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,240 Speaker 1: feet were more submerged in colder water, so they're better 441 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,640 Speaker 1: preserved than the top of him. How did Okay, let's 442 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: go back and address some of the stuff that we've 443 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: just talked about, because I think we can talk about 444 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 1: some of it. As I said, I don't have a 445 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,040 Speaker 1: problem with Patrick's body maybe being rotated. It was an 446 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,000 Speaker 1: active shipping, as Steve suggested it is. I guess it's 447 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: possible that he you know, kind of washed ashore for 448 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,040 Speaker 1: a certain amount of time, washed up on something whatever. Yeah, 449 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,159 Speaker 1: the severe blackening um, according to the medical examiner report, 450 00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 1: was actually um like black spots, which I have the 451 00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:54,040 Speaker 1: sense of being kind of more like cigarette burn type sizes, 452 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 1: which the medical examiner says is like decomposition, which makes sense, 453 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: So I not giants swathed skin, which is what I 454 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 1: got the impression of when you read just Gammon's report. Yes, 455 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: we're starting to get yeah. Yeah. And then the other 456 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: thing is that there wasn't evidence of anything other than 457 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: alcohol in his system, with the exception of their being 458 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 1: really trace amounts of the g h B, which is 459 00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: a thing that naturally occurs in the body when we 460 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: decompose a right, So take that as you will, okay. 461 00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: Gannon says that Patrick his theory about what happened to 462 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: Patrick is that Patrick was grabbed, He was stalked and 463 00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: kidnapped and held on land and tortured and then murdered 464 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: and then dropped into the river like three days before 465 00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:50,160 Speaker 1: they found his body. He was he was disappeared for 466 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: fifty days. His body was not recovered for fifty days. 467 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: That presents problems in and of itself for me. You know, 468 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: they say, well, the skins slippage, Well, okay, sure, yeah, 469 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: the skin slippage, that is a problem. I agree. The 470 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,080 Speaker 1: kind of damage you see to Patrick's body isn't super 471 00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 1: consistent with the kind of damage you would see from 472 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: a body floating in the water. For fifty days. But 473 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,959 Speaker 1: they also say that his blood alcohol level was the 474 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 1: point one too. But they say that he was held 475 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,919 Speaker 1: on land alive for like forty seven days Gannon and 476 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:31,119 Speaker 1: his investigators and then you know, killed and then dropped 477 00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 1: him the roof. So I don't I don't know. They 478 00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 1: can't have it both ways. They can't say he was 479 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: held on land but his blood alcohol level was only this, 480 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 1: but this, but he was killed just a couple of days. 481 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: You know, they just can't have it both ways. Well, 482 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: I think also keeping the guy on land and torturing 483 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: him for forty seven days, he would have to have 484 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: him tied up the entire time. There would be signs 485 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 1: of that his ankles and his wrists. Yeah, or even 486 00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: if he was locked up somewhere, there would be you know, 487 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: he would he wouldn't be eating properly, so like there 488 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: would be physical sign of some kind of abuse. And 489 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: even if he was only held for a couple of days, 490 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: uh and tortured before he was killed and then was killed, 491 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, like three days in and then held on 492 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: land for that long, then his body would have been 493 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: in much more, much more advanced state of decomposition. One 494 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: would think unless he was during the freezer. Yeah, but 495 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 1: there weren't signed I mean it didn't. There weren't signs 496 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,960 Speaker 1: of that anyway. It's it's weird for sure. I don't 497 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 1: want to keep talking about it too much because I 498 00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 1: mean there's a lot of weird stuff. Yeah, on both 499 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 1: on both sides, I think, you know, both on the 500 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: medical examiner side and GM inside. Yeah, they you know, 501 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: I can see where it could be killing maybe somebody 502 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: he knew actually really had a passionate hatred of him 503 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 1: and drugged. But that that that is completely counter to 504 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:52,040 Speaker 1: the theory. Yeah, that's completely if if it's one person 505 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: who hated him, that's completely counter to this entire larger 506 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: thing that he is being shoehorn into. Right, So that's 507 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,480 Speaker 1: the thing. Right, Let's take a step back now and say, 508 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: regardless of whether or not Patrick McNeil was murdered, wasn't 509 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,239 Speaker 1: the work of a serial killer? Probably not, Yeah, just 510 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 1: a just an individual. And so there's he's one of 511 00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:22,400 Speaker 1: two weird cases of cases talking about something else. We're 512 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: not talking about, are we, No, no, no, For a while, 513 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:32,360 Speaker 1: We're just going to briefly touch on another guy. His 514 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: name is Chris Jenkins and he was absolutely, no questions asked, murdered, 515 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: just there's no he was. There's pretty much no one disputes. 516 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: Initially he was classified as a suicide. We could probably 517 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: do an entire show on this guy. We might who knows. 518 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 1: But on Halloween two thousand two, Chris was thrown out 519 00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:54,800 Speaker 1: of a bar that he was in with his friends. 520 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: Witnesses say that staff was instructed that he was not 521 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: to be allowed back in, despite the fact that it 522 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: was I think it was like twenty degrees fahrenheit outside. 523 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: He was dressed in a cheap Indian costume because it 524 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 1: was Halloween. It's like nylon, really really thin. And his coat, 525 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: his cell phone, his money, everything. We're still inside with 526 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,440 Speaker 1: his friends, who apparently were having such a good time 527 00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 1: they didn't even realize their friend was gone. Halloween. Um. 528 00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: Four months later, Chris's body was found. He was just 529 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: reported missing, and you know, they did a search for 530 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: him and nobody found anything. His body was found four 531 00:31:32,680 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: months later, floating, face up, arms crossed, frozen pretty much 532 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: solid in the Mississippi River. It's possible that Chris was 533 00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 1: involved in a gang initiation beating, maybe thrown into the 534 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: back of a van and tortured. It's not great. Um, 535 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: whatever the outcome was for him, it was definitely unfortunate. 536 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: But it was murder, and so he was beaten to death. No, 537 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 1: I don't, I you know what, that's my question. You 538 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: keep saying it was most definitely a murder, and I don't. 539 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: I haven't read anything that shows me that it was 540 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: a murder. Well, the way in which he was found. 541 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: People don't like drown and then wash up with their 542 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: arms crossed neatly across their chest and face up. There's 543 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: that Buddies get messed with by people after the fact, sadly, 544 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: pretty regular basis. We can find him and go, you know, 545 00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 1: I haven't you know the guy who hasn't has meds 546 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 1: in two weeks and has wandered around and puts him 547 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: to rest by putting his arms over his chest and 548 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 1: shoving him back out into the water, thinking that he's 549 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: a viking or something. You know, I mean, these things happen. Yeah, No, 550 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: he was. He was murdered. It's the police are still 551 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 1: looking into why. So there's obviously, since it's an open case, 552 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: details but but but he's also been lumped in too. 553 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: It's the smiley face guys but he did drown right again. 554 00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: You don't know, I don't like I said that actually 555 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: be a good way to kill somebody's it's like winter, 556 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, and it's it's winter out and it's a 557 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: bunch of you grabbing. I had thrown off the bridge 558 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,719 Speaker 1: into the water, swim. He's going to die of exposed. 559 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,960 Speaker 1: He was not thrown off the bridge because the only 560 00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 1: bridge he could have been thrown off of had a 561 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:23,440 Speaker 1: really high retaining wall and he would have had to 562 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: have been lifted. I think it was like a six 563 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: foot tall they did. They did a metric on this. 564 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: A six foot tall man would have had to have 565 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,480 Speaker 1: lifted this guy all the way above his body his 566 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,800 Speaker 1: body height, and then thrown him twelve ft to throw 567 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: him entirely clear, like into the river, to throw him 568 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: entirely clear of all of the stuff that was below 569 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,040 Speaker 1: the river, to have him not have the bones broken 570 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 1: and his body that he didn't have broken in his body, 571 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: So that seemed pretty unlikely. Also, there was surveillance cameras 572 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: on the bridge and that didn't happen. Okay, those are 573 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: the two guys who were murdered of the forty five 574 00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 1: that were murdered and the two most likely the two 575 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: most murdered of them. Like that, So let's talk about 576 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: theories real quick. We're doing typical Devon style. It's it's 577 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:15,359 Speaker 1: real or it's not real, So let's start with real. 578 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: I'll grant you that that is it does seem like 579 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 1: a lot of white college aged athletic men falling into 580 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: bodies of water. But I'll also grant you that um 581 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 1: to borrow a phrase, the killer could have a different name, 582 00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 1: and that's alcoholism. Alcohol. Yeah. Yeah, there's a there's a 583 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: blog that catalogs literally every single missing person that could 584 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: possibly fit into this m O, and it's pretty fascinating 585 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: and has probably more than hundreds to be honest, I 586 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: didn't count of entries. But the official line, like I 587 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: said on the Smiley Face, Killer has claimed forty five 588 00:34:52,840 --> 00:35:02,080 Speaker 1: victims between and now, which actually only yeah years, which 589 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: really only means that that's like two and a half 590 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,719 Speaker 1: drunk dudes falling into a body of water year. More 591 00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 1: than two and a half drunk dudes fall into a 592 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: body of water every year and don't come back out. Yeah, 593 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: so there's that it's not real, And I'll tell you 594 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: why wait, wait that that that's why it's real. That's 595 00:35:22,239 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: why it's real. Okay, yeah it's it's not. And I'll 596 00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: tell you lots of reasons why. Let's talk about reasons 597 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:35,320 Speaker 1: why there's a real lack of m O here. None 598 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: of the smiley faces that were found close to the 599 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: bodies um match, and in fact, the investigators admit that 600 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,919 Speaker 1: there's literally no common reality between any of them. There's 601 00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: no common stroke, there's no common style. There are different colors, 602 00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:56,240 Speaker 1: different paints, different ages, different type of paints, different ways 603 00:35:56,400 --> 00:35:59,080 Speaker 1: of you know, smiles, some of them with the circle, 604 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: some of them are just the two lines in the smile. Yeah. 605 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:05,320 Speaker 1: Did did they ever in these cases that they actually 606 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 1: go out and find any locals who actually hung out 607 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,600 Speaker 1: near the drowning spots like fishing or whatever, and just 608 00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 1: asked them how long to smiley face had been there, 609 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,880 Speaker 1: because that's the thing that it's a supposed entry point. 610 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 1: They don't know if that's where the body went in. 611 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: But also, I mean more than that, like several, but 612 00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:27,359 Speaker 1: not all of these cases have smiley faces attached them. 613 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: In fact, you will notice we just spent a half 614 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,960 Speaker 1: an hour talking about Patrick O'Neill. Guess what they didn't 615 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,960 Speaker 1: talk about at all with that case. Smiley face, no 616 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,759 Speaker 1: smiley face. Probably there was one, because guess what, it's 617 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 1: New York City, and I swear to you, we could 618 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: walk three blocks from where we are right now and 619 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,960 Speaker 1: find at least five smiley faces graffiti on things. You 620 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:48,560 Speaker 1: could be in the middle of the red Woods. I'm 621 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,080 Speaker 1: not lying. I was in the Redwoods recently. You walk 622 00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:54,680 Speaker 1: to a tree and there's a smiley face card carved 623 00:36:54,680 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: in the stump. You were never more than five miles 624 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: away from a smiley face graffiti. So there's that. Yep, 625 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:05,399 Speaker 1: they're very popular, very happy to Yeah. Additionally, the two 626 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,439 Speaker 1: people that we just talked about the outliers, they're they're 627 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:12,200 Speaker 1: just that they're outliers. They're not the norm. The two 628 00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 1: guys that we just talked about, they're the outliers in 629 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: this case. And actually one of them, I'm not even 630 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,719 Speaker 1: convinced was actually murdered. And how are they the outliers? Well, 631 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 1: all all of the other forty five victims are typical 632 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: drowning cases. They were all found face down in position 633 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: with you, These are outliers because there's some o there's 634 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:34,440 Speaker 1: something suspicious going on. Literally every single other victim as 635 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: far as I can tell, just seems like it's a 636 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,960 Speaker 1: typical drowning. Okay, Okay. The other graffiti that was found 637 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: thea it was this is graffiti that was found also 638 00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: kind of near some of the bodies they found, And 639 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 1: this is the one they say is taunting the police. Um, 640 00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:55,880 Speaker 1: they say both of them are taunting the police. Okay, 641 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,520 Speaker 1: but this is it's just graffiti. I mean, I lived 642 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,359 Speaker 1: in the Midwest. These this graffiti was only found near 643 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,399 Speaker 1: the bodies. In the Midwest, it's a pretty common term. 644 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: There's lots of you know, none orders and grocery stores 645 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,839 Speaker 1: and all that stuff that bear the same name. I 646 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 1: don't know what to say about that. It's just graffiti, 647 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,240 Speaker 1: you guys. Yeah, it sounds fair to me. But also, 648 00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: as we talked about before, there's no correlation. It's never 649 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: like and five paces from the body, there was no 650 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: it's like within I don't know, I don't know. I 651 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: just so, as previously stated, nineties six percent of the 652 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:43,600 Speaker 1: victims showed no evidence of trauma or anything weird. Any 653 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,959 Speaker 1: foul play questioned. And you know what's what's really more 654 00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:53,319 Speaker 1: rare than m drunk guys doing stupid things. Well, that's 655 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 1: not rare at all. But well, but you know what's 656 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:57,719 Speaker 1: more rare than that, it's homicidal drownings. As it turns out, 657 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: they only account for two tenths of one percent of 658 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 1: all of the killings in the United States. It's not 659 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: that easy to do that. It's really hard. It's a 660 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: lot easy to stab somebody or shoeing. Yeah. In fact, 661 00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: in a city in Wisconsin where you know, a fair 662 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: amount of these because it's cold and whatever of these drownings, 663 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,320 Speaker 1: the supposed murders happen. In a period of four years, 664 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,960 Speaker 1: the police have stopped more than fifty young, drunk athletic 665 00:39:23,000 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: males from approaching the river there. Do you know why? 666 00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: Why do you know why the men are approaching? It 667 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:30,719 Speaker 1: seems like it would be a fun place to pee. Exactly. 668 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: We're drunk, we have to pee, and as men, that 669 00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: means we have to pee on something, and it's fun 670 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,399 Speaker 1: to pee on the ice. Yeah, there you go, snow. 671 00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:43,719 Speaker 1: We all did a school like you didn't, but Joe 672 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: and I did just what's kind of illegible and your yeah, 673 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:55,800 Speaker 1: this is harder or something. No, we totally live off. Sorry. 674 00:39:56,120 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: So to add to this, Gannon, he was really he 675 00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: was really obsessed with the Patrick McNeill case, and reports 676 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:07,799 Speaker 1: are actually he was. He was obsessed to kind of 677 00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 1: an unhealthy level, and he has been kind of the 678 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,439 Speaker 1: primary proponent of this theory. He's certainly gotten a lot 679 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,319 Speaker 1: of people on board. That's there, there's no question about that. 680 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: But like we said before, there's not even a mention 681 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 1: of a smiley face in conjunction with the McNeil case. 682 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 1: And I don't want to slander again in because I 683 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,760 Speaker 1: do I do believe that he's a really authentic, true 684 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: investigator who just wants to get to the bottom of 685 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 1: this this murder that's haunted him, or this case that's 686 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: haunted him, whether it wants to hold him up. But 687 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: I think it's more than that. I think he probably 688 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: made a promise to himself that he would get to 689 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,080 Speaker 1: the bottom of it. And I but I just it 690 00:40:46,239 --> 00:40:51,799 Speaker 1: just seems like he's looking for something to make it 691 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: all makes sense and it's just not there. Yeah, I 692 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:59,239 Speaker 1: think so sad, But yeah, and also you know, of 693 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:01,359 Speaker 1: course he wants to make a name for himself too. 694 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 1: It might be that some of that there, But like 695 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 1: I said, I do think his intentions at the core 696 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,479 Speaker 1: are are good. I do think that he just wants 697 00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,800 Speaker 1: to solve this case or these cases, because he's actually investigating, um, 698 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 1: the Jenkins case as well, So he has two unsolved 699 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,000 Speaker 1: deaths on his hands that he really wants to solve. 700 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: And and I can see the tendency to kind of 701 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: want to sensationalize it and make it a big thing. 702 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 1: But I just I don't see it. Guys. You know, 703 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: you guys all wanted to hear us talk about this. 704 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:34,799 Speaker 1: I don't know what you were hoping for. You know 705 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,359 Speaker 1: us pretty well by now, A lot of a lot 706 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 1: of people requested this one. A lot of I can 707 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:46,080 Speaker 1: is this just seems like a desperate attempt to link 708 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:48,919 Speaker 1: things together. Yeah, I mean even you know, I think 709 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:51,520 Speaker 1: you guys probably looked at some of the Reddit threads 710 00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,359 Speaker 1: that came up, and even in those, it's kind of this. 711 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:59,080 Speaker 1: I think it's a human nature to want to find 712 00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 1: some meaning and death that was meaningful to you. You know, 713 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,840 Speaker 1: there are people on these raddit threads who are saying, 714 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,360 Speaker 1: oh my god, this exactly mirrors what happened to my 715 00:42:08,680 --> 00:42:13,240 Speaker 1: you know, my cousin, Uh, except that he didn't drown. 716 00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: He was just found dead because he hit his head 717 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,000 Speaker 1: in this construction site. But it wasn't accidental. There's no 718 00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,480 Speaker 1: way it was accidental. And there was a smiley face 719 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: that was graffiti, you know. And it's just I understand that, 720 00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: you know, I do. I at the core of me, 721 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 1: as a human who sympathetic, I understand the want to say, like, no, 722 00:42:34,080 --> 00:42:37,080 Speaker 1: he couldn't have just been drunk and done something dumb. 723 00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:43,920 Speaker 1: He fits this, he fits this mold, but it so 724 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:49,399 Speaker 1: on that downer. Do you have anything to add to this? 725 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,480 Speaker 1: I want to throw down the gauntlet to the smiley 726 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:55,359 Speaker 1: face killer and say, just go pick some athletic young 727 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:57,200 Speaker 1: man here in town and kill him and leave a 728 00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: smiley face, but make it an upside down from a smile. Yeah, 729 00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: andes have the eyes be a T and an s. 730 00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 1: Here we go. Then we'll know. Yeah, well yeah, we 731 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:10,959 Speaker 1: definitely that kind of exposure. Way to go. YouTube. We'll 732 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,120 Speaker 1: definitely revisit this whole thing if that happens. Yeah. So 733 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:17,359 Speaker 1: I did reference some links if you're interested in this case, 734 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:20,240 Speaker 1: they're probably a pretty good start from the horse's mouths 735 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:23,560 Speaker 1: if you will um. Those will be posted on our website, 736 00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 1: along with a link to download a link to donate 737 00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 1: a link um to buy shirts or do whatever you 738 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:36,400 Speaker 1: want forever we haven't. That website is Thinking Sideways Podcast 739 00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:40,640 Speaker 1: dot com. Um. You can also hang out with us 740 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 1: on social media. We've got a Facebook it's a group 741 00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,360 Speaker 1: and a page. We are also on Twitter. We're thinking 742 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: sideways UM. On Twitter, we're trying to twitter tweet tweet 743 00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: Twitter twitter rise. I thought you're gonna say twitch. I 744 00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,719 Speaker 1: don't know what. We're trying to do something there. We 745 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,319 Speaker 1: also have a subreddit. If you're a Reddit person, we're 746 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,000 Speaker 1: you know, thinking Sideways. I think it's thinking Sideways pod 747 00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,040 Speaker 1: or something like that. I don't know. Just starts thinking sideways. 748 00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,960 Speaker 1: You'll find us somehow, probably. If you're listening to us 749 00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: on iTunes and feel free to leave a comment and 750 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,960 Speaker 1: a rating. We like that UM. If you have more 751 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,040 Speaker 1: substantial feedback, don't leave it at a comment, leave it 752 00:44:22,160 --> 00:44:24,239 Speaker 1: as an email so we can talk to you about it. 753 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:29,480 Speaker 1: That email address is Thinking Sideways Podcast at gmail dot com, 754 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:33,600 Speaker 1: and we're on Patreon Patreon dot com slash thinking Sideways. 755 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:39,759 Speaker 1: If you want to support the show financially, no obligation obviously, 756 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: not all of that having been said, we'll talk to 757 00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: you guys in a couple of days and UH have 758 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:57,200 Speaker 1: a good one very soon. By