1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,104 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts, or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:17,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. 4 00:00:17,904 --> 00:00:22,784 Speaker 2: In our show notes, I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 5 00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,624 Speaker 2: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 6 00:00:26,624 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 2: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 7 00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:30,784 Speaker 2: the world, and part. 8 00:00:30,584 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 3: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 9 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 2: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 10 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,504 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about, as well as some you 11 00:00:40,584 --> 00:00:41,224 Speaker 2: may not have heard. 12 00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,584 Speaker 3: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 13 00:00:43,703 --> 00:00:49,864 Speaker 2: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. All right, Our 14 00:00:49,864 --> 00:00:54,384 Speaker 2: guest today is investigative journalists and anthropologist Scott Carney. Scott 15 00:00:54,384 --> 00:00:57,504 Speaker 2: has written five successful and fascinating books, including the New 16 00:00:57,584 --> 00:01:00,584 Speaker 2: York Times bestseller What Doesn't Kill Us. He also wrote 17 00:01:00,584 --> 00:01:03,984 Speaker 2: The Wedge, The Red Market, and The Enlightenment Trap. He's 18 00:01:03,984 --> 00:01:07,304 Speaker 2: also prolific on YouTube substack, and has written for all 19 00:01:07,344 --> 00:01:11,384 Speaker 2: sorts of outlets such as Wired, Mother, John Owes, Men's Journal, Playboy, 20 00:01:11,424 --> 00:01:15,184 Speaker 2: Foreign Policy, Outside, and Fast Company. His work has been 21 00:01:15,224 --> 00:01:18,503 Speaker 2: the subject of a variety of radio and television programs 22 00:01:18,584 --> 00:01:21,023 Speaker 2: and He's won the Pay Award for Ethics and Journalism 23 00:01:21,024 --> 00:01:24,143 Speaker 2: for a story he did on tracking international kidnapping to 24 00:01:24,224 --> 00:01:26,624 Speaker 2: adoption ring. He's traveled to some of the most dangerous 25 00:01:26,624 --> 00:01:29,264 Speaker 2: spots on Earth to explore the limits of endurance, and 26 00:01:29,783 --> 00:01:33,264 Speaker 2: perhaps most importantly, he's a husband of our previous guest 27 00:01:33,344 --> 00:01:36,223 Speaker 2: Lawer Krantz, with whom we solved the century's long hunt 28 00:01:36,264 --> 00:01:36,904 Speaker 2: for Bigfoot. 29 00:01:37,904 --> 00:01:39,303 Speaker 4: That is definitely important part. 30 00:01:39,984 --> 00:01:44,744 Speaker 3: You write about organ transplants and organ sort of like 31 00:01:44,863 --> 00:01:47,824 Speaker 3: the trade. I mean, one of my kids doesn't drink, 32 00:01:47,864 --> 00:01:51,544 Speaker 3: so I'm figuring I'm good for a kidney there conspiracy theories. 33 00:01:51,984 --> 00:01:55,984 Speaker 3: One of the first like scary conspiracy theories that I 34 00:01:56,184 --> 00:02:00,464 Speaker 3: considered as a kid was this old canard about a 35 00:02:00,504 --> 00:02:03,304 Speaker 3: man meets a woman at a bar and they go 36 00:02:03,424 --> 00:02:06,624 Speaker 3: back to his place to drink something. Everything spins around 37 00:02:06,624 --> 00:02:09,064 Speaker 3: and he wakes up in a bathtub of ice with 38 00:02:09,184 --> 00:02:13,144 Speaker 3: his kidney gone. So you've looked into this, how much 39 00:02:13,264 --> 00:02:17,784 Speaker 3: truth is there in this actually happening as opposed to 40 00:02:18,304 --> 00:02:19,184 Speaker 3: you specifically? 41 00:02:21,584 --> 00:02:24,344 Speaker 4: You know, I'd love to know where that story first 42 00:02:24,384 --> 00:02:26,024 Speaker 4: showed up, because I feel like it had to be 43 00:02:26,064 --> 00:02:29,464 Speaker 4: some pulp fiction thriller. There was a movie dirty pretty things. 44 00:02:29,464 --> 00:02:31,984 Speaker 4: That was basically that plot, and there have been like 45 00:02:32,184 --> 00:02:35,584 Speaker 4: organ trafficking movies for as long as I can remember, 46 00:02:35,664 --> 00:02:39,984 Speaker 4: because when kidneys first became transplantable in the fifties sixties, 47 00:02:40,464 --> 00:02:43,864 Speaker 4: it was a really difficult operation. But the barriers to 48 00:02:43,984 --> 00:02:47,384 Speaker 4: doing it, the microsurgeries, the anti rejection drugs. It's gotten 49 00:02:47,424 --> 00:02:50,984 Speaker 4: a lot easier to do organ transplants, which led to 50 00:02:51,064 --> 00:02:55,544 Speaker 4: this idea of organ thieves coming to steal your personal kidneys. 51 00:02:55,544 --> 00:02:59,504 Speaker 4: And it's probably related to the blood libel conspiracy that 52 00:02:59,544 --> 00:03:03,704 Speaker 4: goes all the way back to the fourteen hundreds, which was, 53 00:03:03,744 --> 00:03:06,904 Speaker 4: you know, the rich people were basically vampires and they 54 00:03:06,904 --> 00:03:10,664 Speaker 4: were using other people's body parts to get back, and 55 00:03:10,704 --> 00:03:15,024 Speaker 4: it's related to that. The reality is, yes there is 56 00:03:15,184 --> 00:03:19,344 Speaker 4: organ crime, Yes organs are being stolen, but no it's 57 00:03:19,344 --> 00:03:22,184 Speaker 4: not happening at bars and Tijuana. The bathtubule of ice. 58 00:03:22,304 --> 00:03:25,704 Speaker 4: Interesting mightia, but no, no, that's not that. It would 59 00:03:25,704 --> 00:03:28,784 Speaker 4: never work like that. Because you guys are are law enforcement. 60 00:03:28,864 --> 00:03:31,584 Speaker 4: You understand that criminals, if they're going to be good 61 00:03:31,584 --> 00:03:33,664 Speaker 4: at their job. Now there's idiot criminals out there, but 62 00:03:33,744 --> 00:03:35,704 Speaker 4: if you're going to be good at your job, you 63 00:03:35,784 --> 00:03:38,024 Speaker 4: have to have a rational business plan, and you have 64 00:03:38,064 --> 00:03:40,504 Speaker 4: to try not to get caught. That's like part of 65 00:03:40,504 --> 00:03:46,024 Speaker 4: the game. And you don't go kidnapping affluent foreign travelers 66 00:03:46,384 --> 00:03:49,584 Speaker 4: who go to third world countries as a sustainable business 67 00:03:49,584 --> 00:03:51,904 Speaker 4: plan to get large amounts of flesh. There is a 68 00:03:52,024 --> 00:03:53,824 Speaker 4: much easier way to do it, which is what I 69 00:03:53,984 --> 00:03:57,584 Speaker 4: uncovered basically back in two thousand and seven where I 70 00:03:57,624 --> 00:03:59,944 Speaker 4: coined the word the red market. And what happens is 71 00:04:00,464 --> 00:04:03,704 Speaker 4: where you find organ trafficking. There's a recipe for it. 72 00:04:03,704 --> 00:04:06,504 Speaker 4: It's where you have a world class hospital, just a 73 00:04:06,544 --> 00:04:09,544 Speaker 4: great hospital, and there's tons of them in every country 74 00:04:09,624 --> 00:04:12,104 Speaker 4: in the world or most countries in the world. Next 75 00:04:12,184 --> 00:04:17,384 Speaker 4: to absolute desperation, a population of desperation. We're talking about 76 00:04:17,384 --> 00:04:21,784 Speaker 4: refugee camps, we're talking about just favelas and slums and 77 00:04:21,944 --> 00:04:24,303 Speaker 4: just abject poverty. When you have those two things, the 78 00:04:24,344 --> 00:04:28,424 Speaker 4: great hospital next to the abject poverty, bingo, you've got 79 00:04:28,544 --> 00:04:30,823 Speaker 4: organ trafficking. Because what happens is the people at the 80 00:04:30,823 --> 00:04:33,303 Speaker 4: hospital find brokers who are able to go in and 81 00:04:33,344 --> 00:04:36,104 Speaker 4: find organs by offering. Usually the way it works, as 82 00:04:36,144 --> 00:04:38,544 Speaker 4: they go to a slum, an organ trafficker will be like, hey, 83 00:04:38,544 --> 00:04:40,944 Speaker 4: I'll give you four hundred dollars for your kidneys or 84 00:04:40,984 --> 00:04:43,703 Speaker 4: eight hundred dollars for your kidney, not both, just one. 85 00:04:43,904 --> 00:04:46,503 Speaker 4: You don't need to eat it anyway. And they'll then 86 00:04:47,024 --> 00:04:50,544 Speaker 4: buy a kidney, and oftentimes they'll screw them out of 87 00:04:50,584 --> 00:04:52,384 Speaker 4: half the money later or something like that. But they 88 00:04:52,383 --> 00:04:56,344 Speaker 4: find ways to get agreeable transactions to people who are desperate, 89 00:04:56,383 --> 00:04:59,743 Speaker 4: who don't really have the ability to negotiate fairness or 90 00:05:00,024 --> 00:05:02,264 Speaker 4: the price of their own kidney. Because if I asked you, 91 00:05:02,424 --> 00:05:05,623 Speaker 4: Jerry and John, how much are you going to sell 92 00:05:05,664 --> 00:05:07,743 Speaker 4: your kidney for right now, it's gonna be more than 93 00:05:07,743 --> 00:05:08,344 Speaker 4: four hundred bucks. 94 00:05:08,344 --> 00:05:09,863 Speaker 5: It's gonna get yes. 95 00:05:09,904 --> 00:05:12,904 Speaker 3: So Scott, your book The red Market fascinating, but it's 96 00:05:13,024 --> 00:05:18,063 Speaker 3: also a conspiracy theory. So I remember that when the 97 00:05:18,183 --> 00:05:21,784 Speaker 3: Ukraine War started, at least the latest iteration one of 98 00:05:21,784 --> 00:05:25,544 Speaker 3: the reads that the Russians officially back this up was 99 00:05:25,584 --> 00:05:30,384 Speaker 3: they claimed that the Ukrainians were stealing Russian were basically 100 00:05:30,664 --> 00:05:34,784 Speaker 3: organ harvesting from their Russian population, from Ukraine's Russian population, 101 00:05:34,943 --> 00:05:37,744 Speaker 3: and they were justifying the war within I know that 102 00:05:37,823 --> 00:05:42,544 Speaker 3: the Hamas claims that the Israelis harvest the organs of Palestinians, 103 00:05:42,943 --> 00:05:45,823 Speaker 3: the Algerian War. They claimed that way back when they 104 00:05:46,183 --> 00:05:51,703 Speaker 3: the Algerian guerrillas. So even just conspiracy theories around oregon 105 00:05:51,784 --> 00:05:55,024 Speaker 3: harvesting are huge in China, which is the one thing 106 00:05:55,183 --> 00:05:57,583 Speaker 3: that maybe heavy speak about is that seems to be 107 00:05:57,623 --> 00:06:00,783 Speaker 3: maybe something to it. In China is like it takes 108 00:06:00,823 --> 00:06:03,904 Speaker 3: only weeks to get like a kidney or a liver, 109 00:06:04,303 --> 00:06:07,464 Speaker 3: and with like sentence prisoners, apparently there's organ harvesting. So 110 00:06:07,503 --> 00:06:10,223 Speaker 3: I was wondering if you could that whole conspira theory, 111 00:06:10,224 --> 00:06:12,344 Speaker 3: what's real what's not as far as you can tell. 112 00:06:12,584 --> 00:06:17,143 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a really hard question because one usually these 113 00:06:17,144 --> 00:06:20,303 Speaker 4: governments don't release statistics about their organ crimes, right if 114 00:06:20,344 --> 00:06:22,984 Speaker 4: they're doing an organ crime, they're not like, hey, here 115 00:06:23,024 --> 00:06:24,743 Speaker 4: it is all laid out on a platter for you. 116 00:06:24,984 --> 00:06:27,863 Speaker 4: We do know that China when I was writing this book, 117 00:06:27,904 --> 00:06:30,104 Speaker 4: and they often say they don't do it anymore, and 118 00:06:30,104 --> 00:06:33,183 Speaker 4: then three years later it comes out again. But we 119 00:06:33,303 --> 00:06:37,623 Speaker 4: do know that for a long time China was literally 120 00:06:38,344 --> 00:06:41,664 Speaker 4: using prisoners who are in their penal system to be 121 00:06:41,943 --> 00:06:44,704 Speaker 4: sources for organs. And I spoke to people who were 122 00:06:45,104 --> 00:06:47,584 Speaker 4: of the Falong Daffa Foullong Goong however, you want to 123 00:06:47,743 --> 00:06:50,224 Speaker 4: the shen Yun people, you see them on billboards everywhere. 124 00:06:50,303 --> 00:06:51,744 Speaker 5: That's a political. 125 00:06:51,303 --> 00:06:55,263 Speaker 4: Dissident group in China, and they would be arrested as 126 00:06:55,303 --> 00:06:58,384 Speaker 4: political prisoners relatively frequently. And what happened is they would 127 00:06:58,383 --> 00:07:00,623 Speaker 4: be tissue typed when they got in because they would 128 00:07:00,623 --> 00:07:02,584 Speaker 4: all get these blood tests that no one else got. 129 00:07:02,984 --> 00:07:05,903 Speaker 4: And then the presumption was that these people would be 130 00:07:06,063 --> 00:07:09,223 Speaker 4: entered into a database for matches when people are looking 131 00:07:09,264 --> 00:07:13,104 Speaker 4: for organs. And then there were several accounts of both 132 00:07:13,144 --> 00:07:16,903 Speaker 4: surgeons doing execution by organ donations. So they would have 133 00:07:16,904 --> 00:07:20,184 Speaker 4: people basically an assembly line and execute them until they 134 00:07:20,184 --> 00:07:22,304 Speaker 4: were dead. So they would take out the organs in 135 00:07:22,344 --> 00:07:25,384 Speaker 4: a rapid succession twenty thirty minutes or however long it 136 00:07:25,384 --> 00:07:27,304 Speaker 4: takes to remove an organ, and that would be the 137 00:07:27,344 --> 00:07:29,784 Speaker 4: way they would kill them. And there was a congressional 138 00:07:29,824 --> 00:07:31,984 Speaker 4: testimony about that, so we do know this happens, and 139 00:07:32,024 --> 00:07:33,984 Speaker 4: I actually did speak to some people who went to 140 00:07:34,064 --> 00:07:37,384 Speaker 4: China to get organs in this way. However, you also 141 00:07:37,424 --> 00:07:41,424 Speaker 4: talk about other countries and when you have destitution next 142 00:07:41,464 --> 00:07:45,184 Speaker 4: to world class hospitals, there will be demand that creates 143 00:07:45,224 --> 00:07:48,944 Speaker 4: this market, whether it's an official government policy China, maybe 144 00:07:48,944 --> 00:07:52,223 Speaker 4: Iran to you see these as official policies or more 145 00:07:52,344 --> 00:07:55,664 Speaker 4: just like commercial enterprise doing commercial uprice things the Philippines 146 00:07:55,704 --> 00:07:58,744 Speaker 4: and Indonesia, Brazil, those sorts of things. I don't know. 147 00:07:58,984 --> 00:08:02,384 Speaker 4: I don't think it's impossible at all that organ donation. 148 00:08:02,104 --> 00:08:04,223 Speaker 5: Could be used as a weapon of war. 149 00:08:04,664 --> 00:08:07,384 Speaker 4: Why not. You've got these people you're already killing anyway, 150 00:08:07,504 --> 00:08:09,344 Speaker 4: so why not use them as sources of organs. I 151 00:08:09,704 --> 00:08:13,824 Speaker 4: see that those mental gymnastics moving very easily. 152 00:08:14,264 --> 00:08:17,224 Speaker 2: Like in the book, you discuss grave robbing, blood farming, 153 00:08:17,664 --> 00:08:20,464 Speaker 2: kidney brokers, and you point out that advances in science 154 00:08:20,544 --> 00:08:24,104 Speaker 2: have increased the demand for human tissue for ligaments and kidneys, 155 00:08:24,104 --> 00:08:26,864 Speaker 2: even rented space in women's roombs. So what got you 156 00:08:27,184 --> 00:08:30,064 Speaker 2: interested in digging into this dangerous area? 157 00:08:30,384 --> 00:08:32,304 Speaker 4: In the book The Red Market, I talk about the 158 00:08:32,424 --> 00:08:35,704 Speaker 4: death of a former student of mine in India while 159 00:08:35,704 --> 00:08:38,464 Speaker 4: I were on a meditation retreat, where she took her 160 00:08:38,464 --> 00:08:40,744 Speaker 4: own life after jumping off the roof of a monastery, 161 00:08:40,864 --> 00:08:42,784 Speaker 4: and I was in charge of her body. And what 162 00:08:42,824 --> 00:08:45,624 Speaker 4: was interesting. I mean, it was a horrible pivotal moment 163 00:08:45,664 --> 00:08:48,304 Speaker 4: in my life, but there were also all these people 164 00:08:48,343 --> 00:08:51,064 Speaker 4: I saw the transition from a live human to a thing, 165 00:08:51,103 --> 00:08:53,824 Speaker 4: and I saw the money that was involved in transporting 166 00:08:53,864 --> 00:08:56,703 Speaker 4: the insurance the government, like there was just a lot 167 00:08:56,744 --> 00:09:00,584 Speaker 4: of like fingers suddenly in the value of a corpse. 168 00:09:01,024 --> 00:09:03,304 Speaker 4: And that sort of turned opened my eyes to this 169 00:09:03,624 --> 00:09:07,343 Speaker 4: commodification of bodies. And then literally about two months later, 170 00:09:07,504 --> 00:09:09,424 Speaker 4: when I went back to my home. I was living 171 00:09:09,463 --> 00:09:12,103 Speaker 4: in the South Indian city of Chennight, a village right 172 00:09:12,103 --> 00:09:14,384 Speaker 4: next door to my house, like four miles from my house, 173 00:09:14,664 --> 00:09:17,343 Speaker 4: a news report in the local papers announce that eighty 174 00:09:17,384 --> 00:09:19,464 Speaker 4: women had stolen their kidneys, and I followed up on 175 00:09:19,504 --> 00:09:21,583 Speaker 4: that story. I did reporting on that for six or 176 00:09:21,583 --> 00:09:24,024 Speaker 4: seven more months after that, and getting you know, the 177 00:09:24,103 --> 00:09:27,984 Speaker 4: question of like getting access to people to talk about it, 178 00:09:28,024 --> 00:09:29,664 Speaker 4: you know, as an investigator journalist. Is what I would 179 00:09:29,664 --> 00:09:32,623 Speaker 4: do is I'd go in and I'd locate the brokers 180 00:09:32,944 --> 00:09:35,624 Speaker 4: through various methods, and I'd ask them why what they 181 00:09:35,664 --> 00:09:37,584 Speaker 4: do is necessary. I wouldn't be like, why are you 182 00:09:37,624 --> 00:09:40,383 Speaker 4: an evil criminal? I'd be like, how are you saving 183 00:09:40,424 --> 00:09:44,304 Speaker 4: people's lives. I would often go to the more respectable 184 00:09:44,343 --> 00:09:46,984 Speaker 4: sides of the industry, the medical side of the industry, 185 00:09:46,984 --> 00:09:49,184 Speaker 4: and a lot of the people doing the operations they 186 00:09:49,184 --> 00:09:51,784 Speaker 4: have medical degrees. They're not thugs with guns trying to 187 00:09:51,784 --> 00:09:54,544 Speaker 4: shoot me. When I got closer to the thugs with 188 00:09:54,583 --> 00:09:56,983 Speaker 4: guns people, I was more circumspect. 189 00:09:57,304 --> 00:10:00,223 Speaker 3: The blood libell, I think you mentioned it goes back 190 00:10:00,264 --> 00:10:02,384 Speaker 3: to the even before the Middle Ages, right, that the 191 00:10:02,544 --> 00:10:07,503 Speaker 3: Jews were blamed with kidnapping Christian children and using their 192 00:10:07,624 --> 00:10:10,784 Speaker 3: blood to bake their levin bread. 193 00:10:10,624 --> 00:10:12,824 Speaker 4: Which is not kosher. I mean, it's just not problem. 194 00:10:13,424 --> 00:10:17,504 Speaker 3: But also as a form of state craft or politics 195 00:10:17,544 --> 00:10:23,184 Speaker 3: where this is weaponized, and Qwanon claimed famously that Hillary 196 00:10:23,384 --> 00:10:28,544 Speaker 3: Clinton and a cabal of sex fiends all Democrats living 197 00:10:28,624 --> 00:10:31,184 Speaker 3: in a basement of common pizza, which they have a basement, 198 00:10:31,343 --> 00:10:35,784 Speaker 3: but they were harvesting children for their adrenal glands and medically. 199 00:10:35,824 --> 00:10:38,744 Speaker 3: This is complete nonsense. But the whole point seemed to 200 00:10:38,744 --> 00:10:43,544 Speaker 3: be to build a conspiracy that allows you to attack 201 00:10:43,624 --> 00:10:46,824 Speaker 3: your enemy. Right if the Russians claim that the Ukrainians 202 00:10:46,864 --> 00:10:50,384 Speaker 3: are harvesting organs, or if the QAnon people claim that 203 00:10:50,463 --> 00:10:53,864 Speaker 3: Democrats are doing this to children, this allows you to 204 00:10:53,944 --> 00:10:57,104 Speaker 3: do almost anything to them. Bare Why do you think 205 00:10:57,184 --> 00:11:00,184 Speaker 3: that's so potent and still being used today? People? 206 00:11:00,384 --> 00:11:04,983 Speaker 4: Humans are attracted to sensational stories, lo and behold the 207 00:11:05,024 --> 00:11:08,184 Speaker 4: old newspaper adage, if it bleeds, it leads. And what 208 00:11:08,223 --> 00:11:11,944 Speaker 4: we have seen is this particular story blood libel going. 209 00:11:11,944 --> 00:11:15,664 Speaker 4: You know, Dracula, that's blood libel too. This particular story 210 00:11:15,744 --> 00:11:21,343 Speaker 4: has been just incredibly persistent for centuries. And what's shocking 211 00:11:21,384 --> 00:11:25,184 Speaker 4: to me is that they that it just keeps working, right, 212 00:11:25,343 --> 00:11:28,384 Speaker 4: that it just keeps It's so far fetched. That's not 213 00:11:28,463 --> 00:11:31,703 Speaker 4: what people do. That's what occasional serial killers do. A 214 00:11:31,904 --> 00:11:34,944 Speaker 4: very small one or two people do this. But it's 215 00:11:34,984 --> 00:11:38,064 Speaker 4: not the Tutsies do this. It's not like the Irish, 216 00:11:38,103 --> 00:11:40,463 Speaker 4: they're big into this. It's it doesn't work like that 217 00:11:40,703 --> 00:11:43,144 Speaker 4: in reality. It's like, maybe there's a couple horrible people 218 00:11:43,184 --> 00:11:44,343 Speaker 4: who just do horrible. 219 00:11:44,064 --> 00:11:46,704 Speaker 3: Things, unless it's a religious rite, you know. 220 00:11:46,784 --> 00:11:49,623 Speaker 4: Weirdly, there are religious groups that do have practiced these 221 00:11:49,664 --> 00:11:52,184 Speaker 4: sorts of things, right. The Aztecs were notable for ripping 222 00:11:52,184 --> 00:11:54,184 Speaker 4: people's hearts out of the top of pyramids and throwing 223 00:11:54,223 --> 00:11:56,304 Speaker 4: them down and doing all that stuff. There's the groups 224 00:11:56,343 --> 00:11:59,264 Speaker 4: like the Kanima in South America. It's and other dark 225 00:11:59,304 --> 00:12:02,304 Speaker 4: shamanic group. There are the Agori in India. I mean, 226 00:12:02,304 --> 00:12:05,744 Speaker 4: there are these things. Some have been very powerful over 227 00:12:05,784 --> 00:12:08,184 Speaker 4: the course of history, and so it's not like it's 228 00:12:08,504 --> 00:12:12,583 Speaker 4: totally beyond the capabilities of humans to do it. I 229 00:12:12,583 --> 00:12:15,544 Speaker 4: think in all of those cases, though, they were using 230 00:12:15,624 --> 00:12:18,304 Speaker 4: the horror of saying, hey, I'm the bad guy. I 231 00:12:18,343 --> 00:12:20,463 Speaker 4: am so powerful, I can rip someone's hard out and 232 00:12:20,504 --> 00:12:22,464 Speaker 4: throw it down the pyramids, so don't mess with me. 233 00:12:22,944 --> 00:12:25,064 Speaker 4: And same in those other groups that I was mentioning, 234 00:12:25,144 --> 00:12:27,304 Speaker 4: And so it's they do it in order to shock you. 235 00:12:27,544 --> 00:12:29,944 Speaker 4: And then in the other way it gets weaponized is 236 00:12:30,024 --> 00:12:34,304 Speaker 4: people say in a political party that our enemies are 237 00:12:34,424 --> 00:12:35,104 Speaker 4: those people. 238 00:12:35,304 --> 00:12:37,424 Speaker 2: I mean, there is a need for organs, right, people 239 00:12:37,424 --> 00:12:40,504 Speaker 2: are dying waiting for transplants. Is there a model that 240 00:12:40,544 --> 00:12:43,424 Speaker 2: can better balance these competing realities or is it just 241 00:12:43,463 --> 00:12:45,583 Speaker 2: that poor people in the need for money is going 242 00:12:45,624 --> 00:12:48,383 Speaker 2: to keep that the grift side of this business? Mind 243 00:12:48,384 --> 00:12:49,944 Speaker 2: to me going Yeah. 244 00:12:50,024 --> 00:12:52,824 Speaker 4: What I argue in the book is for radical transparency 245 00:12:52,824 --> 00:12:55,623 Speaker 4: in organ markets. We have this ethic in America. You've 246 00:12:55,624 --> 00:12:58,103 Speaker 4: heard of hippa right, which is medical privacy in this 247 00:12:58,304 --> 00:13:03,864 Speaker 4: law has created the cover for horrible crimes because they 248 00:13:03,904 --> 00:13:05,343 Speaker 4: say we're going to make this private. We're going to 249 00:13:05,384 --> 00:13:07,784 Speaker 4: make but hospitals in control of it and then when 250 00:13:07,784 --> 00:13:09,904 Speaker 4: the hospitals control it, they're also the one who could 251 00:13:09,904 --> 00:13:11,784 Speaker 4: potentially profit off of these crimes. 252 00:13:11,824 --> 00:13:13,024 Speaker 5: Not all hospitals do this. 253 00:13:13,144 --> 00:13:16,024 Speaker 4: Most hospitals are honest and above the board, but it 254 00:13:16,103 --> 00:13:18,304 Speaker 4: creates the cover story for doing that. So what I 255 00:13:18,343 --> 00:13:21,904 Speaker 4: call for in the book is to say, let's put 256 00:13:22,064 --> 00:13:25,464 Speaker 4: radical transparency. So every pint of blood you get, every 257 00:13:25,544 --> 00:13:28,463 Speaker 4: human skeleton on the wall, every heart, every kidney, you 258 00:13:28,544 --> 00:13:31,024 Speaker 4: can trace it back publicly through a database to know 259 00:13:31,024 --> 00:13:33,304 Speaker 4: where it comes from. And when I have raised this 260 00:13:33,343 --> 00:13:35,584 Speaker 4: to the people and they were like, no, we should 261 00:13:35,583 --> 00:13:38,024 Speaker 4: never do that because we want this to be secret. 262 00:13:38,064 --> 00:13:41,143 Speaker 4: We want to make it not personal. And I'm my 263 00:13:41,304 --> 00:13:44,264 Speaker 4: argument is it is inherently personal. When you're dealing with 264 00:13:44,264 --> 00:13:47,144 Speaker 4: body parts. It is not just like a normal commodity. 265 00:13:47,144 --> 00:13:50,504 Speaker 4: If you treat it like a normal commodity, you become unhuman. 266 00:13:50,784 --> 00:13:52,984 Speaker 4: The other thing I'd like to point out is that 267 00:13:53,064 --> 00:13:56,504 Speaker 4: we often think that there is a shortage of kidneys. 268 00:13:56,703 --> 00:13:58,743 Speaker 4: Right you say, oh, there's are not enough kidneys to 269 00:13:58,784 --> 00:14:03,064 Speaker 4: go around. This is probably wrong. Instead of the demand 270 00:14:03,144 --> 00:14:05,864 Speaker 4: being sort of like static, it is actually a function 271 00:14:05,944 --> 00:14:08,863 Speaker 4: of supply. When kidneys first started to become Availabhen We're 272 00:14:08,864 --> 00:14:12,064 Speaker 4: talking the fifties sixties, where it was a ten year 273 00:14:12,103 --> 00:14:14,304 Speaker 4: waiting list to get a kidney. Since then, we have 274 00:14:14,624 --> 00:14:18,184 Speaker 4: radically increased the number of kidneys, So this is radically 275 00:14:18,223 --> 00:14:20,824 Speaker 4: it's hundreds of thousands of kidneys. Operations are done every 276 00:14:20,864 --> 00:14:23,504 Speaker 4: year in America. The waiting list is still ten years long. 277 00:14:23,704 --> 00:14:26,504 Speaker 4: So what's actually going on is that the available supply, 278 00:14:26,664 --> 00:14:29,544 Speaker 4: the more we have allowed kidneys to become available on 279 00:14:29,584 --> 00:14:33,184 Speaker 4: the market, the more uses we have found for kidneys. 280 00:14:33,544 --> 00:14:35,984 Speaker 4: We're just expanding the criteria to do more because this 281 00:14:36,064 --> 00:14:39,344 Speaker 4: is big business. This is billions of dollars, not only 282 00:14:39,384 --> 00:14:43,064 Speaker 4: the transplantation process, but also the pharmaceutical drugs that come afterward, 283 00:14:43,264 --> 00:14:46,464 Speaker 4: the life of interaction with the healthcare system. There is 284 00:14:46,584 --> 00:14:50,104 Speaker 4: a lot of money, even in the legal system. So 285 00:14:50,144 --> 00:14:53,704 Speaker 4: I think that perhaps other than transparency, we also need 286 00:14:53,744 --> 00:14:58,144 Speaker 4: to and this is shocking, get right with death. Realize 287 00:14:58,224 --> 00:15:00,744 Speaker 4: that you are going to die. I am going to die. 288 00:15:00,784 --> 00:15:03,104 Speaker 4: Everyone's going to die. A lot of these people in 289 00:15:03,104 --> 00:15:04,664 Speaker 4: the last a year or two more, a lot of 290 00:15:04,664 --> 00:15:06,624 Speaker 4: them are very sick. They're on cyclistport and they're on 291 00:15:06,664 --> 00:15:08,944 Speaker 4: these and our rejection drugs, which is basically like being 292 00:15:08,984 --> 00:15:12,383 Speaker 4: on eight the aids. You tamped down your immune system 293 00:15:12,424 --> 00:15:14,464 Speaker 4: so it can't deal with infections. It can be a 294 00:15:14,464 --> 00:15:18,144 Speaker 4: pretty bad time period of your life after the kidney transit. 295 00:15:18,224 --> 00:15:21,424 Speaker 4: Not always there's obviously nuance in these medical criterias. But 296 00:15:21,544 --> 00:15:25,544 Speaker 4: realize that we even the above ground system, money still 297 00:15:25,664 --> 00:15:27,144 Speaker 4: deill drives the whole business. 298 00:15:27,424 --> 00:15:35,064 Speaker 3: So let's jump from the organ industry into sects, sects, 299 00:15:35,104 --> 00:15:38,104 Speaker 3: religious cults, and you've got the enlightenment trip. What is 300 00:15:38,224 --> 00:15:43,424 Speaker 3: your sense having looked into this on people creating religious 301 00:15:43,424 --> 00:15:48,504 Speaker 3: conspiracies to further their own their own desires. 302 00:15:48,984 --> 00:15:51,704 Speaker 4: What is the difference between a religion and a cult? 303 00:15:51,904 --> 00:15:53,784 Speaker 4: And there's a formula that I like to think is 304 00:15:53,824 --> 00:15:58,383 Speaker 4: that cult plus time equals religion. Because all religions, I 305 00:15:58,424 --> 00:16:01,224 Speaker 4: don't care which one you're talking about, are founded on 306 00:16:01,584 --> 00:16:05,104 Speaker 4: bananas beliefs. I mean, even if it's even if your 307 00:16:05,104 --> 00:16:08,024 Speaker 4: religion is actually true, it's all still crazy. It's all 308 00:16:08,184 --> 00:16:12,144 Speaker 4: so far out there. And in the Buddha foundational belief 309 00:16:12,224 --> 00:16:14,864 Speaker 4: is that the Buddha was enlightened, and that enlightenment means 310 00:16:14,904 --> 00:16:17,664 Speaker 4: that you have basically neo in the matrix, like superpowers 311 00:16:17,664 --> 00:16:20,064 Speaker 4: to some degree, and that there's actually again a wheel 312 00:16:20,384 --> 00:16:23,504 Speaker 4: of time, and that if you get truly enlightened, you 313 00:16:23,504 --> 00:16:25,104 Speaker 4: realize that all of this was just an illusion, and 314 00:16:25,144 --> 00:16:28,784 Speaker 4: the true uber reality, the pure reality, is something else. 315 00:16:29,104 --> 00:16:31,704 Speaker 4: Like all religions have this idea that they are going 316 00:16:31,744 --> 00:16:36,104 Speaker 4: to distance you from objective reality and tell you that 317 00:16:36,144 --> 00:16:40,424 Speaker 4: there is another reality which is actually more real than 318 00:16:40,464 --> 00:16:43,104 Speaker 4: the one that you have. Humans love stories of creation, 319 00:16:43,144 --> 00:16:46,184 Speaker 4: and oftentimes there is wisdom in these religious traditions. There's 320 00:16:46,224 --> 00:16:48,704 Speaker 4: the Golden Rule, which is in basically all of them, 321 00:16:49,024 --> 00:16:51,264 Speaker 4: which says you should be kind of people, and you 322 00:16:51,264 --> 00:16:53,344 Speaker 4: should do unto others as others do unto you. So 323 00:16:53,344 --> 00:16:54,944 Speaker 4: I've been reading up in Bhutan, I think about it, 324 00:16:54,944 --> 00:16:56,984 Speaker 4: I write it, written a little bit about Bhutan. There's 325 00:16:57,024 --> 00:17:00,824 Speaker 4: this saint in Bhutan named Drukunli, couldn't they And he 326 00:17:00,904 --> 00:17:02,584 Speaker 4: is called the Saint of a thousand Women, and he's 327 00:17:02,624 --> 00:17:04,704 Speaker 4: like one of their big saints over there, Buddhist guy 328 00:17:05,024 --> 00:17:07,744 Speaker 4: and his symbol and you should google this and you 329 00:17:07,784 --> 00:17:12,904 Speaker 4: will see an erect projecting effluent out of the front 330 00:17:13,304 --> 00:17:16,384 Speaker 4: with hairy testicles beneath it, and that is his symbol. 331 00:17:16,544 --> 00:17:19,104 Speaker 4: And it's written on the walls of so many buildings 332 00:17:19,144 --> 00:17:21,824 Speaker 4: in Bhutan, so many buildings have these as like lintels 333 00:17:22,104 --> 00:17:23,184 Speaker 4: in Bhutan. 334 00:17:22,984 --> 00:17:25,544 Speaker 2: If you take the number one subway up into the bronx, 335 00:17:25,584 --> 00:17:27,904 Speaker 2: they also use that symbol on a lot of the 336 00:17:27,944 --> 00:17:46,024 Speaker 2: walls and things up there. So we're talking about religion 337 00:17:46,104 --> 00:17:50,184 Speaker 2: and how leaders may take advantage of people or take 338 00:17:50,184 --> 00:17:53,464 Speaker 2: advantage of people's conspiratorial thinking. And you've written a lot 339 00:17:53,504 --> 00:17:55,544 Speaker 2: also about the grift diverse. If you want to call 340 00:17:55,544 --> 00:17:59,184 Speaker 2: about grifts and wellness grifters, and you write about liars 341 00:17:59,184 --> 00:18:01,784 Speaker 2: and cheats and criminals and Charlatan's I want to turn 342 00:18:01,784 --> 00:18:04,184 Speaker 2: it into the politics. Does your research help you better 343 00:18:04,264 --> 00:18:08,104 Speaker 2: understand contemporary politics since you've become an expert on grifting. 344 00:18:08,464 --> 00:18:11,544 Speaker 4: I tried to avoid politics so much in my work, 345 00:18:11,664 --> 00:18:13,584 Speaker 4: but I was going after health grifters. I was looking 346 00:18:13,624 --> 00:18:17,344 Speaker 4: up these people who were selling supplements, who are promoting 347 00:18:17,544 --> 00:18:21,464 Speaker 4: false health ideas and then making massive sums of money. 348 00:18:21,584 --> 00:18:25,104 Speaker 4: And then we get the Trump presidency where he literally 349 00:18:25,144 --> 00:18:28,264 Speaker 4: appoints RFK Junior, one of the biggest health miss informers 350 00:18:28,344 --> 00:18:33,584 Speaker 4: in history, as the Secretary of Health and Human Services, 351 00:18:33,944 --> 00:18:37,064 Speaker 4: which has fundamentally changed. It's so weird because at one 352 00:18:37,064 --> 00:18:39,263 Speaker 4: point the health grifters existed in this universe where they 353 00:18:39,264 --> 00:18:41,023 Speaker 4: had to be in opposition to the government. Right, they 354 00:18:41,024 --> 00:18:43,023 Speaker 4: were like, Ah, the government's not telling you, Big barber's 355 00:18:43,064 --> 00:18:44,504 Speaker 4: going after us. And that's why you got to take 356 00:18:44,504 --> 00:18:47,624 Speaker 4: my ivermectin and whatever else. And that's why light enemas 357 00:18:47,624 --> 00:18:50,224 Speaker 4: and coffee animas and my chakra healings are good because 358 00:18:50,264 --> 00:18:54,144 Speaker 4: those authority figures they're hiding the truth from you. That's general, 359 00:18:54,184 --> 00:18:56,584 Speaker 4: that's a summary of all wellness. But now we're in 360 00:18:56,584 --> 00:18:59,424 Speaker 4: a world where the guy who was doing that before 361 00:18:59,584 --> 00:19:01,144 Speaker 4: is now the head of you in health and services. 362 00:19:01,184 --> 00:19:04,824 Speaker 4: And we had this reversal in how we even approach 363 00:19:04,864 --> 00:19:06,424 Speaker 4: and think about human health, which just led to it 364 00:19:06,664 --> 00:19:09,344 Speaker 4: like an epistemological problem. So the idea like how do 365 00:19:09,384 --> 00:19:12,424 Speaker 4: we understand what truth is, especially in the health space, 366 00:19:12,464 --> 00:19:15,104 Speaker 4: And it's all so confusing right now. 367 00:19:15,184 --> 00:19:18,464 Speaker 3: Scott, you lived in Madras, Chenai. I lived in Deli, 368 00:19:18,504 --> 00:19:20,464 Speaker 3: spent a lot of time in India. I think if 369 00:19:20,464 --> 00:19:23,144 Speaker 3: we could take our audience to the streets of just 370 00:19:23,264 --> 00:19:28,264 Speaker 3: streets of Delhi, right, you would see elephant tiases, leprosy, 371 00:19:28,984 --> 00:19:32,504 Speaker 3: you know, super rating incredible things that that we most 372 00:19:32,544 --> 00:19:35,664 Speaker 3: people assume illnesses that we got rid of. They've only 373 00:19:35,664 --> 00:19:38,624 Speaker 3: read about him in the Bible and it still exists. 374 00:19:38,704 --> 00:19:41,504 Speaker 3: But we in the West don't have them, and we're 375 00:19:41,504 --> 00:19:43,184 Speaker 3: going to get a meck though, Jerry, it looks like 376 00:19:43,504 --> 00:19:46,704 Speaker 3: I think we are measles smallpox. Yeah. 377 00:19:46,864 --> 00:19:49,944 Speaker 4: The first time you see someone wheeling around their scrotum 378 00:19:50,024 --> 00:19:52,224 Speaker 4: in a wheelbarrow, you're like, let's not do that. 379 00:19:52,304 --> 00:19:55,424 Speaker 3: Elephants my kids have seeing that. Yeah, and you suddenly 380 00:19:55,464 --> 00:19:58,744 Speaker 3: look at immunization a little bit different, right when you've 381 00:19:58,744 --> 00:20:02,744 Speaker 3: seen somebody with smallpox scars and things like that. I 382 00:20:02,784 --> 00:20:05,504 Speaker 3: don't know how to put that across to an audience 383 00:20:05,584 --> 00:20:08,704 Speaker 3: that just assumes that they're going to be okay. But 384 00:20:08,784 --> 00:20:13,144 Speaker 3: YE don't know. There seems to be the conspiratorial mindset 385 00:20:13,224 --> 00:20:16,424 Speaker 3: around that is such that I don't know, is it 386 00:20:16,504 --> 00:20:18,664 Speaker 3: people are trying to monetize it or is just a 387 00:20:18,744 --> 00:20:19,824 Speaker 3: lack of imagination. 388 00:20:20,224 --> 00:20:22,384 Speaker 4: I think that you really hit on a good point 389 00:20:22,504 --> 00:20:25,184 Speaker 4: is that we have been the beneficiaries of a lot 390 00:20:25,224 --> 00:20:29,304 Speaker 4: of success, and we think that our affluence financial but 391 00:20:29,384 --> 00:20:33,824 Speaker 4: also more importantly health affluence is the is the standard 392 00:20:34,184 --> 00:20:36,904 Speaker 4: of reality because we've never experienced another reality. Right, we 393 00:20:36,944 --> 00:20:40,304 Speaker 4: grew up in I don't know, Providence, Rhode Island or 394 00:20:40,664 --> 00:20:42,864 Speaker 4: des Moines, Iowa or whatever, and like you grew up 395 00:20:42,944 --> 00:20:46,744 Speaker 4: and yet with your experience is the low level of 396 00:20:46,784 --> 00:20:49,384 Speaker 4: disease and you just think that's the normal state. Where 397 00:20:49,384 --> 00:20:53,864 Speaker 4: these reform movements came from were epidemics, were smallpox, where 398 00:20:53,904 --> 00:20:56,584 Speaker 4: what a third of the population died in front of them, 399 00:20:56,664 --> 00:20:59,504 Speaker 4: Their mom died in front of them and her face 400 00:20:59,584 --> 00:21:02,304 Speaker 4: exploded with pust jewels, and that was like a formative 401 00:21:02,304 --> 00:21:06,344 Speaker 4: experience in like probably eighteen percent of the globe's life, 402 00:21:06,464 --> 00:21:09,904 Speaker 4: right seeing your mother die of smallpox. And then people 403 00:21:09,904 --> 00:21:11,784 Speaker 4: were like, let's not do that. Let's dedicate our lives 404 00:21:11,784 --> 00:21:13,664 Speaker 4: to not doing it. So what we have now is 405 00:21:13,704 --> 00:21:16,104 Speaker 4: we have people who are aware of breast cancer. Everyone 406 00:21:16,224 --> 00:21:18,264 Speaker 4: knows somebody whos had breast cancer and that's a terrible thing. 407 00:21:18,304 --> 00:21:20,944 Speaker 4: So no one is anti breast cancer research right now. 408 00:21:21,504 --> 00:21:26,024 Speaker 4: Even the conspiractorial most conspiratorial people I've come across aren't like, 409 00:21:26,504 --> 00:21:28,824 Speaker 4: breast cancer research should not continue and you should use 410 00:21:28,864 --> 00:21:30,864 Speaker 4: ivermective people are like, we have to deploy the best 411 00:21:30,864 --> 00:21:33,184 Speaker 4: science to get rid of that because they've experienced it. 412 00:21:33,544 --> 00:21:36,464 Speaker 4: But if you haven't experienced it, it almost seems like 413 00:21:36,504 --> 00:21:39,704 Speaker 4: the reality of the disease state of the germ theory 414 00:21:39,704 --> 00:21:42,744 Speaker 4: of disease is actually just a story that people told you, 415 00:21:43,024 --> 00:21:46,024 Speaker 4: And maybe it's not. And then maybe and I guess 416 00:21:46,024 --> 00:21:48,624 Speaker 4: where I'm going this is, maybe we have to have consequences. 417 00:21:48,624 --> 00:21:51,504 Speaker 4: Maybe COVID. Maybe the problem with COVID was that it 418 00:21:51,624 --> 00:21:54,264 Speaker 4: wasn't bad enough. But if we had seen all of 419 00:21:54,304 --> 00:21:57,984 Speaker 4: our mothers die of COVID, of asphyxiating in front of us, 420 00:21:58,184 --> 00:21:59,464 Speaker 4: we have been all about the science. 421 00:21:59,464 --> 00:22:00,064 Speaker 5: I'll tell you what. 422 00:22:00,184 --> 00:22:02,984 Speaker 2: In one of your other books and your videos and things, 423 00:22:02,984 --> 00:22:07,184 Speaker 2: you talk about people engage in extreme activities, and you've 424 00:22:07,184 --> 00:22:10,344 Speaker 2: explored the limits of human endurance. A couple of your 425 00:22:10,344 --> 00:22:12,904 Speaker 2: books you talk about some of these things in freezing 426 00:22:12,984 --> 00:22:16,024 Speaker 2: water and you climbed Mount Kilimanjaro and just shorts and 427 00:22:16,024 --> 00:22:16,584 Speaker 2: things like that. 428 00:22:16,624 --> 00:22:18,344 Speaker 4: I'd written the book The Enlightenment Trap, and I was 429 00:22:18,344 --> 00:22:21,224 Speaker 4: looking at gurus who were offering superpowers, telling you could 430 00:22:21,264 --> 00:22:23,104 Speaker 4: levitate and walk through walls and stuff like that, and 431 00:22:23,144 --> 00:22:25,184 Speaker 4: they made quite a bit of money doing that. And 432 00:22:25,184 --> 00:22:27,224 Speaker 4: then I ran across this dude, a photo of a 433 00:22:27,264 --> 00:22:30,104 Speaker 4: dude who was sitting like naked on an iceberg, and 434 00:22:30,184 --> 00:22:32,504 Speaker 4: he was saying, I can treat whim hoff. Yeah, I 435 00:22:32,544 --> 00:22:34,384 Speaker 4: could teach you to do the same thing. And I 436 00:22:34,544 --> 00:22:37,344 Speaker 4: was like, that's bullshit. And I got a commission from 437 00:22:37,344 --> 00:22:39,664 Speaker 4: a magazine to go out and debunk him as a 438 00:22:39,704 --> 00:22:42,384 Speaker 4: false guru because there was something compelling about it. There 439 00:22:42,464 --> 00:22:45,704 Speaker 4: was something obviously, how do you do that? And I 440 00:22:45,744 --> 00:22:47,424 Speaker 4: wanted to know what was going on. He was also 441 00:22:47,464 --> 00:22:50,024 Speaker 4: saying that he could give you some pretty important and 442 00:22:50,104 --> 00:22:52,984 Speaker 4: crazy health outcomes from doing this. I went out to 443 00:22:53,024 --> 00:22:55,424 Speaker 4: debunk him, but lo and behold, it turned out that 444 00:22:55,704 --> 00:22:58,584 Speaker 4: the stuff he promised worked. I was sitting on icebergs, 445 00:22:58,584 --> 00:23:00,984 Speaker 4: I'd climb up mountains in my underwear like I was 446 00:23:00,984 --> 00:23:03,264 Speaker 4: doing these things that were pretty cool. And so I 447 00:23:03,304 --> 00:23:05,184 Speaker 4: wrote this New York Times bestselling book called What Doesn't 448 00:23:05,264 --> 00:23:07,824 Speaker 4: Kill Us about him, And I was on the forefront 449 00:23:08,144 --> 00:23:09,344 Speaker 4: of the ice bathing movement. 450 00:23:09,824 --> 00:23:11,784 Speaker 2: I lived in Finland, and I spent a lot of 451 00:23:11,864 --> 00:23:14,264 Speaker 2: time in holes in the ice, and I was a 452 00:23:14,264 --> 00:23:15,944 Speaker 2: pretty normal experience in Finland. 453 00:23:16,064 --> 00:23:20,064 Speaker 4: So it's funny I've gone from being skeptical to being 454 00:23:20,184 --> 00:23:23,464 Speaker 4: a major promoter to being, oh, hell no, what have 455 00:23:23,504 --> 00:23:25,224 Speaker 4: we done? And I'm sort of in the hell know 456 00:23:25,264 --> 00:23:26,664 Speaker 4: what have we done? Section of my life. 457 00:23:26,744 --> 00:23:28,504 Speaker 2: Let's bring everything back to the middle eventually. 458 00:23:28,584 --> 00:23:30,904 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then I wrote a follow u book called 459 00:23:30,904 --> 00:23:33,784 Speaker 4: The Wedge, which was basically about how you can use 460 00:23:34,184 --> 00:23:38,064 Speaker 4: the environment so extreme feelings such as heat or cold, 461 00:23:38,184 --> 00:23:42,104 Speaker 4: or sex or fear or isolation, tanks and ayahuasca. I 462 00:23:42,104 --> 00:23:43,584 Speaker 4: talked about like different things that you can do to 463 00:23:43,624 --> 00:23:46,864 Speaker 4: give yourself sensations and how you can use those sensations 464 00:23:46,904 --> 00:23:50,384 Speaker 4: to train your body to do things that are crazy 465 00:23:50,384 --> 00:23:52,984 Speaker 4: and unusual and cool. And I talk about the physiological 466 00:23:53,024 --> 00:23:55,784 Speaker 4: sides of this. And I decided not to start a 467 00:23:55,864 --> 00:23:57,344 Speaker 4: cult about it because. 468 00:23:57,704 --> 00:23:58,344 Speaker 3: Makes some money. 469 00:23:58,344 --> 00:24:00,144 Speaker 4: Do I seriously could have. 470 00:24:00,264 --> 00:24:03,104 Speaker 2: So, just as a proponent of ice bass from years ago. 471 00:24:03,344 --> 00:24:05,104 Speaker 2: So what have you learned about the connection between the 472 00:24:05,144 --> 00:24:07,304 Speaker 2: mind and the body And is there a way to 473 00:24:07,344 --> 00:24:09,744 Speaker 2: hack our bodies to make them more resilient. It's a 474 00:24:09,824 --> 00:24:11,184 Speaker 2: normal way, not some weird thing. 475 00:24:11,544 --> 00:24:14,064 Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I mean the idea is that the more 476 00:24:14,104 --> 00:24:16,344 Speaker 4: you do in your life, the more that you will 477 00:24:16,384 --> 00:24:20,024 Speaker 4: be able to do Like. This is not busticism. This 478 00:24:20,144 --> 00:24:22,544 Speaker 4: is saying that you we generally live our lives in 479 00:24:22,584 --> 00:24:25,664 Speaker 4: a contained way where we limit the number of interactions 480 00:24:25,664 --> 00:24:28,023 Speaker 4: we have because it's where we're comfortable. And if you 481 00:24:28,104 --> 00:24:30,064 Speaker 4: were to expand the range to the things that are 482 00:24:30,064 --> 00:24:32,944 Speaker 4: comfortable in ice pass or are super uncomfortable. Right, you 483 00:24:33,024 --> 00:24:36,184 Speaker 4: are going to be more comfortable in a sensation of 484 00:24:36,344 --> 00:24:39,384 Speaker 4: death because your body only knows fight or flight or 485 00:24:39,424 --> 00:24:41,424 Speaker 4: rest and digest. So when you're in ice bath, it's 486 00:24:41,464 --> 00:24:43,704 Speaker 4: like fight or flight. And if you get into that 487 00:24:43,704 --> 00:24:46,424 Speaker 4: fight or flight state and you say to yourself, I 488 00:24:46,464 --> 00:24:49,184 Speaker 4: can handle it, It's okay, I can do this, that 489 00:24:49,304 --> 00:24:53,424 Speaker 4: has a systemic effect on everything in your body. Now, 490 00:24:53,464 --> 00:24:57,304 Speaker 4: it doesn't cure cancer. Probably it might help whatever that 491 00:24:57,344 --> 00:25:00,544 Speaker 4: means in a very nebulous way, but it certainly helps 492 00:25:00,584 --> 00:25:03,424 Speaker 4: with anxiety in your perception of pain and you're feeling 493 00:25:03,464 --> 00:25:06,024 Speaker 4: about where you can exist comfortably in the world, which 494 00:25:06,104 --> 00:25:09,784 Speaker 4: does extend a lot of your human abilities. And so 495 00:25:09,824 --> 00:25:11,384 Speaker 4: what I did in the book the wedge is as 496 00:25:11,424 --> 00:25:13,664 Speaker 4: I looked at not only ice baths, which was with 497 00:25:13,784 --> 00:25:17,704 Speaker 4: the first book, but also many other sensations where you 498 00:25:17,744 --> 00:25:22,744 Speaker 4: can insert a wedge between the stimulus, the thing that's 499 00:25:22,864 --> 00:25:27,184 Speaker 4: causing a sensation, and your perception of that sensation. And 500 00:25:27,224 --> 00:25:28,624 Speaker 4: a lot of it has to do with what you 501 00:25:28,704 --> 00:25:31,344 Speaker 4: perceived beforehand, because I often will say the hardest part 502 00:25:31,384 --> 00:25:33,464 Speaker 4: of doing an ice bath is not getting in the 503 00:25:33,464 --> 00:25:33,904 Speaker 4: ice bath. 504 00:25:33,944 --> 00:25:35,304 Speaker 5: It's looking at the ice bath. 505 00:25:35,384 --> 00:25:37,824 Speaker 4: It's just standing outside it and be like, oh, that's 506 00:25:37,864 --> 00:25:39,784 Speaker 4: going to be terrible. And even now I've been doing 507 00:25:39,864 --> 00:25:42,864 Speaker 4: it for thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years, I still am like, 508 00:25:42,904 --> 00:25:44,424 Speaker 4: why am I the ice bath guy? Like, I look 509 00:25:44,424 --> 00:25:46,304 Speaker 4: at the ice bath book, I hate that. That's terrible, 510 00:25:46,544 --> 00:25:49,024 Speaker 4: And then I get in that I feel great afterwards. 511 00:25:49,064 --> 00:25:52,304 Speaker 4: And I think that that skill, that ability to be 512 00:25:52,344 --> 00:25:55,704 Speaker 4: like the perception and the anticipation of something and getting 513 00:25:55,784 --> 00:25:58,304 Speaker 4: over it and then realizing that once you're in the 514 00:25:58,344 --> 00:26:04,024 Speaker 4: hard situation, you actually usually have more opportunity. 515 00:26:03,224 --> 00:26:05,504 Speaker 5: To act than you had anticipated earlier. 516 00:26:20,784 --> 00:26:22,984 Speaker 2: So you said you had some questions for us about 517 00:26:23,024 --> 00:26:24,104 Speaker 2: CIA or other things. 518 00:26:24,344 --> 00:26:27,584 Speaker 4: What do you got how much when we invaded Iraq? 519 00:26:27,744 --> 00:26:30,424 Speaker 4: In Iraq too, how much did the CIA know that 520 00:26:30,464 --> 00:26:31,864 Speaker 4: it was bullshit from the beginning. 521 00:26:32,104 --> 00:26:35,584 Speaker 2: That's a very good question. And the first answer is 522 00:26:35,824 --> 00:26:37,344 Speaker 2: the CIA is a lot of people, and so there's 523 00:26:37,344 --> 00:26:39,864 Speaker 2: probably people had different views, and there's probably people who 524 00:26:39,904 --> 00:26:43,104 Speaker 2: knew the senior level the administration wants to do this 525 00:26:43,384 --> 00:26:45,984 Speaker 2: and whether it's true or not, we have to do it. 526 00:26:46,024 --> 00:26:48,184 Speaker 2: And then there's people who are reading the news and 527 00:26:48,264 --> 00:26:50,744 Speaker 2: a few steps away and you know, believe, oh what, 528 00:26:50,784 --> 00:26:52,504 Speaker 2: we're being told that this is important, they're going to 529 00:26:52,544 --> 00:26:54,664 Speaker 2: do it, And there's people who are really in the 530 00:26:54,744 --> 00:26:56,744 Speaker 2: know what's going on in Iraq and all those other 531 00:26:56,864 --> 00:26:58,704 Speaker 2: kind of things. One thing I can say for sure 532 00:26:58,784 --> 00:27:01,584 Speaker 2: is I know my friend who ran the operational side 533 00:27:01,584 --> 00:27:03,904 Speaker 2: of Iraq. You know, he thought it was bullshit from 534 00:27:03,904 --> 00:27:05,984 Speaker 2: the beginning. He's like, you know, these guys want to 535 00:27:05,984 --> 00:27:07,944 Speaker 2: go to war, even if it turns out that Sodam 536 00:27:07,984 --> 00:27:10,424 Speaker 2: Hussein has like a paper clip been a rubber band, 537 00:27:10,584 --> 00:27:12,624 Speaker 2: that we're going to go to war with them. But 538 00:27:12,784 --> 00:27:17,184 Speaker 2: there's processes and presidents and Congress, and we're moving forward, 539 00:27:17,224 --> 00:27:19,344 Speaker 2: and you can either choose not to be part of 540 00:27:19,344 --> 00:27:22,424 Speaker 2: it or which is a good and legitimate moral, ethical choice, 541 00:27:22,784 --> 00:27:24,704 Speaker 2: or you can move forward. But I think a lot 542 00:27:24,704 --> 00:27:28,264 Speaker 2: of people did believe because essentially the Iraqi people and 543 00:27:28,304 --> 00:27:31,304 Speaker 2: most other countries believed he had nuclear stuff because he 544 00:27:31,384 --> 00:27:33,344 Speaker 2: had in the past and covered it up in light 545 00:27:33,384 --> 00:27:35,344 Speaker 2: about it. So Jerry probably knows more about he spent 546 00:27:35,384 --> 00:27:36,304 Speaker 2: more time in Iraq. 547 00:27:36,584 --> 00:27:40,024 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it depends what it is. John is absolutely 548 00:27:40,104 --> 00:27:42,184 Speaker 3: right on this. They decided to go to war, and 549 00:27:42,224 --> 00:27:46,864 Speaker 3: we're looking for a reason that's CIA, and I'm happy 550 00:27:46,864 --> 00:27:49,704 Speaker 3: to criticize CIA, but the CIA was a stucky They 551 00:27:49,704 --> 00:27:52,104 Speaker 3: looked at CIA and said, find us a reason. We 552 00:27:52,144 --> 00:27:54,864 Speaker 3: don't give a shit what it is. So in the beginning, 553 00:27:55,384 --> 00:27:57,984 Speaker 3: the first reason they put out there was that Saddam 554 00:27:58,504 --> 00:28:01,984 Speaker 3: and al Qaeda bin Laden were in cahoots together. They 555 00:28:01,984 --> 00:28:05,464 Speaker 3: were working together, and anybody who knew anything about Connor 556 00:28:05,504 --> 00:28:08,864 Speaker 3: Terris and knew that was complete bullshit, but Cheney didn't care. 557 00:28:09,544 --> 00:28:12,824 Speaker 3: The second thing was weapons of mass destruction, and that 558 00:28:13,024 --> 00:28:17,344 Speaker 3: was more difficult. My understanding is we didn't have any 559 00:28:17,424 --> 00:28:22,104 Speaker 3: information that conclusively that he did, but that doesn't mean 560 00:28:22,144 --> 00:28:25,544 Speaker 3: that he didn't. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. 561 00:28:25,824 --> 00:28:29,224 Speaker 3: So that afterwards we were being told look harder, and 562 00:28:29,344 --> 00:28:33,584 Speaker 3: there was reporting coming in, mostly tendentious people who wanted 563 00:28:33,624 --> 00:28:35,344 Speaker 3: us to get into war or were looking to make 564 00:28:35,384 --> 00:28:38,584 Speaker 3: money off of this, saying yeah, yeah, he's got information. 565 00:28:38,984 --> 00:28:42,304 Speaker 3: And I think where the analysis broke down is that 566 00:28:42,904 --> 00:28:46,064 Speaker 3: the analysts were under a huge pressure to say yes, 567 00:28:46,664 --> 00:28:50,504 Speaker 3: and the analyst, initially my understanding, was, wanted to say 568 00:28:50,544 --> 00:28:53,184 Speaker 3: we think it's more likely than not that he does 569 00:28:53,464 --> 00:28:56,104 Speaker 3: because he did before he says he does, We've got 570 00:28:56,104 --> 00:28:59,384 Speaker 3: people saying he does, so probably he does, and the 571 00:28:59,384 --> 00:29:02,464 Speaker 3: White House was saying, cut that shit out. It's yes 572 00:29:02,544 --> 00:29:05,704 Speaker 3: or no, it's a binary decision. Don't push his foot around. 573 00:29:06,024 --> 00:29:08,824 Speaker 3: And George TenneT, who I think the world of, basically 574 00:29:08,864 --> 00:29:11,184 Speaker 3: said we got to say yes or no. So yes. 575 00:29:11,664 --> 00:29:14,784 Speaker 3: Turns out it was. The answer was they likely had it, 576 00:29:15,384 --> 00:29:19,504 Speaker 3: but when we looked, they didn't have it anymore. My 577 00:29:19,624 --> 00:29:22,824 Speaker 3: sense was there was a conspiracy at the White House. 578 00:29:23,064 --> 00:29:25,784 Speaker 3: Conspiracy and how you use that term. We're going to 579 00:29:25,864 --> 00:29:28,344 Speaker 3: war and they probably have it and we need to 580 00:29:28,384 --> 00:29:30,344 Speaker 3: stop it. And Sadam is a bad guy, no doubt 581 00:29:30,344 --> 00:29:31,664 Speaker 3: about it, and even. 582 00:29:31,624 --> 00:29:33,984 Speaker 2: Use that one percent. If there's one percent chance that 583 00:29:34,064 --> 00:29:36,064 Speaker 2: he has it, we need to go to war, you know. 584 00:29:36,424 --> 00:29:39,744 Speaker 4: So the second question is in the past, the CIA 585 00:29:39,784 --> 00:29:42,744 Speaker 4: has been and the government in various agencies have been 586 00:29:42,784 --> 00:29:47,264 Speaker 4: involved in pushing stories, fake stories in order to cover 587 00:29:47,384 --> 00:29:50,824 Speaker 4: up other activities. For instance that Roswell's the most obvious 588 00:29:50,824 --> 00:29:55,264 Speaker 4: one where we have maybe some a project mogul. You 589 00:29:55,344 --> 00:29:59,424 Speaker 4: have this detector of nuclear weapons, it crashes and they 590 00:29:59,504 --> 00:30:02,464 Speaker 4: run with a story of aliens, and then everyone loves 591 00:30:02,504 --> 00:30:05,384 Speaker 4: it and we'll keep it. We'll keep saying it's aliens 592 00:30:05,384 --> 00:30:08,144 Speaker 4: because we don't want to release the actual question, which 593 00:30:08,184 --> 00:30:10,544 Speaker 4: is that we are running a secret nuclear thing and 594 00:30:11,384 --> 00:30:14,104 Speaker 4: that was a thing that happened. How often would you 595 00:30:14,184 --> 00:30:17,824 Speaker 4: say the CIA or other government agents. It allows stories 596 00:30:17,864 --> 00:30:21,344 Speaker 4: that are preposterous to circulate in order to cover up 597 00:30:21,464 --> 00:30:24,184 Speaker 4: other things. And second part of the question, what are 598 00:30:24,224 --> 00:30:25,584 Speaker 4: those stories are going on right now? 599 00:30:25,824 --> 00:30:27,464 Speaker 2: So I think Roswell and stuff. I mean, that wasn't 600 00:30:27,504 --> 00:30:30,224 Speaker 2: the CIA, that was the military. I don't people always 601 00:30:30,264 --> 00:30:32,144 Speaker 2: bring up that stuff with us, And I don't know 602 00:30:32,224 --> 00:30:34,864 Speaker 2: anything about the alien stuff or any of those kind 603 00:30:34,904 --> 00:30:38,464 Speaker 2: of things. And in terms of coming up with fake stories, 604 00:30:38,864 --> 00:30:42,264 Speaker 2: at least since the seventies, in reform of the intelligence 605 00:30:42,304 --> 00:30:45,384 Speaker 2: community and oversight by the Congress and stuff, we are 606 00:30:45,464 --> 00:30:48,784 Speaker 2: not allowed to put out false stories that appeal to 607 00:30:48,824 --> 00:30:51,664 Speaker 2: the American public. Like we can create a false story 608 00:30:51,704 --> 00:30:55,224 Speaker 2: that's aimed at the Russian military or the Iranians so 609 00:30:55,264 --> 00:30:57,504 Speaker 2: they think that we know something we don't know. But 610 00:30:57,544 --> 00:31:00,984 Speaker 2: we cannot put a story out publicly into the United 611 00:31:01,024 --> 00:31:03,904 Speaker 2: States against American We can try to keep up secret 612 00:31:04,104 --> 00:31:06,904 Speaker 2: because it's not tell anyone, but to create a fake 613 00:31:06,944 --> 00:31:10,504 Speaker 2: story that is to the American peace people, I'm not 614 00:31:10,544 --> 00:31:11,264 Speaker 2: aware of any of that. 615 00:31:11,584 --> 00:31:15,064 Speaker 3: So, for example, when John and I were under cover, 616 00:31:15,224 --> 00:31:18,104 Speaker 3: we were State Department officers. We've now officially rolled or 617 00:31:18,104 --> 00:31:22,064 Speaker 3: covered back. You don't want to tell if you're working Pakistan, 618 00:31:22,384 --> 00:31:25,184 Speaker 3: you don't want to say I'm a CIA officer because 619 00:31:25,264 --> 00:31:27,224 Speaker 3: you're gonna get You're gonna be killed, so you have 620 00:31:27,264 --> 00:31:29,464 Speaker 3: a cover story. So yeah, that's a fake story, but 621 00:31:29,544 --> 00:31:32,104 Speaker 3: I think we would kind of gree that's okay. And 622 00:31:32,104 --> 00:31:34,824 Speaker 3: then they get to go into a story like the 623 00:31:34,824 --> 00:31:38,664 Speaker 3: Glomar explore. Right, we were gonna go down to get 624 00:31:38,784 --> 00:31:42,824 Speaker 3: a Russian sub that had sunk with nuclear missiles, right, 625 00:31:42,864 --> 00:31:46,624 Speaker 3: and we built this whole thing, and the cover story 626 00:31:46,864 --> 00:31:50,744 Speaker 3: was that Howard Hughes vouched for us that it was 627 00:31:50,824 --> 00:31:53,904 Speaker 3: we were going to manganese mining right to and we 628 00:31:53,904 --> 00:31:55,744 Speaker 3: were going to try to get this Russian sub and 629 00:31:55,784 --> 00:31:57,344 Speaker 3: may or may not have gotten it, who knows. So 630 00:31:57,424 --> 00:32:00,584 Speaker 3: that's a cover story too, And that's been blitter. But 631 00:32:00,664 --> 00:32:02,944 Speaker 3: I don't think those are those are that's not really 632 00:32:02,984 --> 00:32:06,064 Speaker 3: what you're getting at. However, sometimes these things no snowball 633 00:32:06,344 --> 00:32:08,144 Speaker 3: and get out of it, and I don't know, I 634 00:32:08,144 --> 00:32:11,424 Speaker 3: don't think we have a ability to roll them back then, 635 00:32:11,664 --> 00:32:15,144 Speaker 3: and you lived in India and I wanted to, so 636 00:32:15,224 --> 00:32:17,184 Speaker 3: I was there as well, and there was a story 637 00:32:17,224 --> 00:32:20,664 Speaker 3: there that I had always heard that the CIA was 638 00:32:20,744 --> 00:32:24,984 Speaker 3: responsible for glaciers melting, for floods and earthquakes up in 639 00:32:25,024 --> 00:32:27,984 Speaker 3: the Himalayas, and I thought, what bullshit is that? And 640 00:32:28,064 --> 00:32:31,384 Speaker 3: I was in the agency, right, I'm like, that's utter horseshit. 641 00:32:31,904 --> 00:32:35,024 Speaker 3: After I retired, I found out that there was this 642 00:32:35,264 --> 00:32:39,504 Speaker 3: little nugget of truth to it that in nineteen sixty 643 00:32:39,544 --> 00:32:41,304 Speaker 3: and I was wondering, if you've heard this. In nineteen 644 00:32:41,384 --> 00:32:45,664 Speaker 3: sixty five, the CIA and the Indian government of the 645 00:32:45,664 --> 00:32:51,064 Speaker 3: IB their Internal Service that we put seven plutonium like 646 00:32:51,344 --> 00:32:56,024 Speaker 3: i'll say reactors but small components devices on this mountain 647 00:32:56,224 --> 00:33:00,464 Speaker 3: called Nanda Devi, which is India's second highest mountain, right 648 00:33:00,504 --> 00:33:03,584 Speaker 3: on the Chinese border, and had it an antenna. It 649 00:33:03,664 --> 00:33:07,624 Speaker 3: was basically despy on Chinese nuclear testing right that both 650 00:33:07,664 --> 00:33:10,264 Speaker 3: Indian and the United States wanted to And so a 651 00:33:10,384 --> 00:33:15,344 Speaker 3: team of mountain climbers, American and Indian mountain climbers climbed 652 00:33:15,424 --> 00:33:18,344 Speaker 3: up Non the Devi with these like hundreds and hundreds 653 00:33:18,384 --> 00:33:22,504 Speaker 3: of pounds of these nuclear plutonium devices that were going 654 00:33:22,584 --> 00:33:26,184 Speaker 3: to power the antenna. And they ran into a snowstorm 655 00:33:26,464 --> 00:33:29,544 Speaker 3: and they had to abandon all this equipment like halfway 656 00:33:29,624 --> 00:33:31,784 Speaker 3: up the mountain. And then they went back the next 657 00:33:31,864 --> 00:33:34,304 Speaker 3: year and they couldn't find it because it was all 658 00:33:34,384 --> 00:33:38,664 Speaker 3: snowed over. And supposedly it's still up there, right, So 659 00:33:39,104 --> 00:33:41,784 Speaker 3: this is in the Indian press. The Indian Prime Minister 660 00:33:41,904 --> 00:33:44,904 Speaker 3: has talked about it, and that was kind of an oopsie, right, 661 00:33:44,944 --> 00:33:47,344 Speaker 3: Maybe somebody go find it somedays. But of course the 662 00:33:47,384 --> 00:33:51,584 Speaker 3: local villagers every time there's a flood, that's not global warming, 663 00:33:51,744 --> 00:33:56,224 Speaker 3: it's those CIA nuclear and there's no way of rolling 664 00:33:56,264 --> 00:33:59,064 Speaker 3: that story back. And I'll tell you this, those small 665 00:33:59,064 --> 00:34:03,264 Speaker 3: devices are not causing earthquakes and huge floods up there. 666 00:34:03,664 --> 00:34:04,544 Speaker 3: It is global warm. 667 00:34:05,024 --> 00:34:07,344 Speaker 4: I have another CIA question for you. You cannot be able 668 00:34:07,344 --> 00:34:08,744 Speaker 4: to answer this one for a number of reasons. 669 00:34:08,784 --> 00:34:09,464 Speaker 3: So I wrote this. 670 00:34:09,663 --> 00:34:12,223 Speaker 4: Book called The Vortex, which is the true story of 671 00:34:12,264 --> 00:34:14,984 Speaker 4: history is Deadly at Storm and the Liberation of Bangladesh, 672 00:34:15,024 --> 00:34:18,504 Speaker 4: which is connecting a storm, the deadlyest storm in history 673 00:34:18,544 --> 00:34:21,183 Speaker 4: that killed half a million people in what was then 674 00:34:21,223 --> 00:34:24,623 Speaker 4: East Pakistan is now Bangladesh, and then how that storm 675 00:34:25,143 --> 00:34:29,143 Speaker 4: sort of set things in motion to ultimately lead to 676 00:34:29,183 --> 00:34:33,104 Speaker 4: a genocide and a revolution, and then the creation of Bangladesh. 677 00:34:33,263 --> 00:34:37,223 Speaker 4: Nixon was involved in everything here. Nixon was heavily involved 678 00:34:37,504 --> 00:34:42,064 Speaker 4: on the bad guy's side, the Pakistani side, helping the 679 00:34:42,104 --> 00:34:44,664 Speaker 4: genocide going on. At one point, there was even almost 680 00:34:44,703 --> 00:34:46,944 Speaker 4: a nuclear confrontation in the Bay of Bengal, where the 681 00:34:46,944 --> 00:34:49,703 Speaker 4: American aircraft carrier in the Russian fleet were facing off 682 00:34:49,703 --> 00:34:51,744 Speaker 4: and we were minutes from destruction. And it didn't happen 683 00:34:52,104 --> 00:34:55,584 Speaker 4: because Daka, the capital of now Bangladesh, fell. So that's 684 00:34:55,663 --> 00:34:59,944 Speaker 4: the story of this book. But here's the CIA question. Afterwards, Mudjib, 685 00:34:59,944 --> 00:35:03,184 Speaker 4: who was the leader of bangladesh first president their George 686 00:35:03,223 --> 00:35:07,064 Speaker 4: Washington Fellow, was eventually assassinated in a coup, and the 687 00:35:07,064 --> 00:35:12,343 Speaker 4: Bangladeshis are convinced that the assassination was backed by the 688 00:35:12,424 --> 00:35:16,743 Speaker 4: CIA in retribution for the fight for independence. 689 00:35:16,783 --> 00:35:17,464 Speaker 5: Is that possible. 690 00:35:17,504 --> 00:35:19,663 Speaker 2: That's a good question. I served in Pakistan, Jerry served 691 00:35:19,663 --> 00:35:22,663 Speaker 2: in India. I don't know anything about that, and I 692 00:35:22,663 --> 00:35:25,544 Speaker 2: don't know that we had much resources or whatever in 693 00:35:25,904 --> 00:35:28,784 Speaker 2: Bangladesh at the time, but we were we meeting Nixon 694 00:35:28,824 --> 00:35:31,863 Speaker 2: and the administration was pro Pakistan, that's for sure. So 695 00:35:31,944 --> 00:35:34,703 Speaker 2: it is possible that there was a covert action that 696 00:35:34,864 --> 00:35:38,064 Speaker 2: essentially the US comment supported, which led to the wouldn't 697 00:35:38,064 --> 00:35:39,263 Speaker 2: be a CIA person killing, But. 698 00:35:39,464 --> 00:35:39,984 Speaker 3: It led to that. 699 00:35:40,024 --> 00:35:41,544 Speaker 2: But I don't know, I don't know anything about it, 700 00:35:41,544 --> 00:35:42,544 Speaker 2: do you know, Jerry. 701 00:35:42,504 --> 00:35:45,783 Speaker 3: A little bit? And it's you know, I want to 702 00:35:45,783 --> 00:35:51,223 Speaker 3: apologize to all the Bengali and Bangladeshi, our Bengali viewership 703 00:35:51,263 --> 00:35:55,104 Speaker 3: out there. The United States doesn't give a shit about Bangladesh. 704 00:35:55,143 --> 00:35:58,143 Speaker 3: We just don't. We would only care if it like 705 00:35:58,703 --> 00:36:03,024 Speaker 3: our client state Pakistan at that time in India, which 706 00:36:03,104 --> 00:36:05,384 Speaker 3: was backed by the Russians. We would look at it 707 00:36:05,424 --> 00:36:08,184 Speaker 3: through that lens. But once the Muti Bohemi had won 708 00:36:08,743 --> 00:36:13,183 Speaker 3: and East Pekastan had become Bangladesh, washed our hands of it. 709 00:36:13,384 --> 00:36:15,703 Speaker 3: And I served in India and I got to tell 710 00:36:15,783 --> 00:36:18,183 Speaker 3: you I could count on my fist the number of 711 00:36:18,263 --> 00:36:20,863 Speaker 3: days we dealt with anything to do with Bangladesh were 712 00:36:20,944 --> 00:36:23,743 Speaker 3: just like it was important to the US as a 713 00:36:24,024 --> 00:36:28,544 Speaker 3: humanitarian place and increasingly is a place where people made textiles. 714 00:36:28,623 --> 00:36:30,464 Speaker 3: But I got to tell you there was there's no 715 00:36:30,544 --> 00:36:34,824 Speaker 3: strategic interest in Bangladesh and things like oh that leader 716 00:36:35,104 --> 00:36:37,783 Speaker 3: they went against US ten years ago, Let's go get them. 717 00:36:37,783 --> 00:36:41,904 Speaker 3: It's like there's there's simply is no motivation, like the 718 00:36:41,944 --> 00:36:44,783 Speaker 3: government doesn't work like that, We're onto the next next 719 00:36:44,783 --> 00:36:47,104 Speaker 3: pilot shit. It was like, I don't see why we'd 720 00:36:47,104 --> 00:36:49,783 Speaker 3: ever take risk. It would only be it wanted to 721 00:36:49,824 --> 00:36:51,783 Speaker 3: get along with the Bangladesh's. 722 00:36:52,104 --> 00:36:53,863 Speaker 4: One thing is clear is that it was that the 723 00:36:53,904 --> 00:36:58,383 Speaker 4: Bangladeshi that the Nixon administration was eagerly withdrawing all food 724 00:36:58,424 --> 00:37:02,064 Speaker 4: aid and all aid that could possibly help the Bangladeshis 725 00:37:02,183 --> 00:37:05,423 Speaker 4: at that time. So they certainly orchestrated a famine, so 726 00:37:05,904 --> 00:37:08,544 Speaker 4: why not orchestrate a assassination. 727 00:37:08,864 --> 00:37:11,703 Speaker 2: Administration is the presidents make policy, and the CIA is 728 00:37:11,703 --> 00:37:14,064 Speaker 2: an action arm of the presidency. So when we go 729 00:37:14,064 --> 00:37:16,263 Speaker 2: to warn and go to war in Iraq, it's not 730 00:37:16,344 --> 00:37:18,863 Speaker 2: the Department of Defense war, it's the United States war. 731 00:37:18,904 --> 00:37:21,143 Speaker 2: And so the CIA is used by a president to 732 00:37:21,183 --> 00:37:24,184 Speaker 2: do something. It's the US action. And I'm not aware 733 00:37:24,183 --> 00:37:27,143 Speaker 2: of anything related to Bangladesh but the but Nixon and 734 00:37:27,263 --> 00:37:29,743 Speaker 2: Kissinger were involved in those things. They were the same 735 00:37:29,783 --> 00:37:31,623 Speaker 2: thing with the East Tmoor. It was a pretty ugly 736 00:37:31,703 --> 00:37:33,024 Speaker 2: situation at the time, and. 737 00:37:32,984 --> 00:37:36,544 Speaker 3: The Russians were pushing that we were behind the Khalistan 738 00:37:37,104 --> 00:37:40,703 Speaker 3: movement to create a free seek pun job and that 739 00:37:40,783 --> 00:37:44,064 Speaker 3: the CIA was behind killing India ra Gandhi. So I 740 00:37:44,104 --> 00:37:46,984 Speaker 3: guess whenever I hear these things, it's yeah, okay. I 741 00:37:46,984 --> 00:37:49,784 Speaker 3: mean there's not an assassination that you know that somebody 742 00:37:49,824 --> 00:37:52,183 Speaker 3: doesn't claim there's a force. 743 00:37:51,984 --> 00:37:55,824 Speaker 2: Behind you know, your writings, your sub stack, your videos. 744 00:37:55,864 --> 00:37:58,024 Speaker 2: I would encourage people to do it. Is your your 745 00:37:58,064 --> 00:37:59,903 Speaker 2: site of Scottcarney dot com Is that right? 746 00:38:00,743 --> 00:38:03,544 Speaker 4: Scott Carney dot com is my website. YouTube is where 747 00:38:03,783 --> 00:38:06,544 Speaker 4: I am the most active these days. On substack, where 748 00:38:06,584 --> 00:38:09,183 Speaker 4: I put out newsletters and things like that. But obviously 749 00:38:09,223 --> 00:38:11,743 Speaker 4: I've written six books, so's there's lots of ways to 750 00:38:11,783 --> 00:38:12,984 Speaker 4: interact with the stuff that I do. 751 00:38:17,424 --> 00:38:22,464 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 752 00:38:22,783 --> 00:38:27,184 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 753 00:38:27,223 --> 00:38:31,183 Speaker 1: Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures 754 00:38:31,304 --> 00:38:31,544 Speaker 1: for I